What About Vietnam - Series 2 – 6
The TOP 5 travel photography locations in Vietnam
Kerry: Xin Chao and welcome to What About Vietnam. If there's one thing I know about travel, that is that we all love to take photographs, we all want to record that beautiful journey that we've had to that special place. Today, I'm going to be talking to someone who knows a lot about this subject, as he runs his own photo tours all through Southeast Asia, but in particular, his favorite spot is Vietnam. Etienne Bossot joins us today from Hoi An and he opens our discussion with a little bit about what's happening in Vietnam, amid the COVID crisis and the upsurge in a second wave. As we're recording this in August 2020, we didn't want to get too stuck on that, but it was good to hear from Etienne, just a little bit of the background to what's been going on with COVID and how Vietnam has handled it so valiantly up until now.
And it still goes on to really get it under control as the center point is in, Danang very close to Hoi An, more about Etienne in the sense that Etienne does offer some fantastic tours throughout Southeast Asia.
He's been doing this for over 13 years. He specializes in people photography, and there certainly is an art to taking people photography seriously and an art to getting it right and doing it in a way that from both you as the photographer, and the person you taking the photograph of, are both very happy about the outcome, he will share with us some of the best places. His top five best places to visit in Vietnam. And we're going to get lots of tips and hints about how to take great photos. Please welcome Etienne to the show. Hello Etienne, how are you?
Etienne: I'm fine thanks and you?
Kerry: Not too bad. Well, I'm in cold winter rugged up Sydney. How is things in Hoi An?
Etienne: Oh, I am in hot summery, sweaty Hoi An.
Kerry: Nothing has changed.
Etienne: Nothing has changed, no.
Kerry: As far as the weather anyway. So, tell us a little bit about how things have changed amid COVID…. a lot going on in the news. So, I’d love to get your recap on just what's going on in Vietnam and of course your local Hoi An.
Etienne: Okay, so what happened is at the beginning of what I could call the COVID crisis in March, April, actually Vietnam managed the situation really well and managed to trace the few people who were tested positive.
So, they managed to handle the spread of the virus. And there was about three months of time in Vietnam when there was no COVID anymore you could travel freely, there was not a single case recorded, tested, there was not a single death happening with COVID and something strange happen about 10 days ago, they tested someone positive in the Binh Nam and no one knows where it comes from, this person had actually already passed away, but he was an old man who was already sick with like kidney disease and things like this.
But no one really knows where these things come from. You know, people talk about illegal Chinese immigrant, but in Vietnam, people always take shortcuts to start blaming the Chinese very quickly. So, you need to take things with a pinch of salt.
So, what happens now is since four days, we are back into complete lockdown in Danang, in Hoi An, it's a semi locked down, but the difference this time is, is the first time it was a lock down, but people were like going out a little bit and going to have coffee with friends and things. I mean, people were following the rules, but it was pretty chill. This time I can really feel between the expat community and the Vietnamese people, everyone is taking things much more seriously because there was not a single case of COVID in Vietnam for a long time and it was like the pride of the country.
And you can tell people really want to get back to this last three months when you could travel freely in Vietnam, Vietnam was back to normal except for the international tourism. So, everyone is really taking things seriously, this time people are staying home, everyone's wearing masks and the government is actually testing as many people as they can in the central Vietnam area. And I actually believe if they continue to do the job they do now in a couple of weeks, we might be COVID free again.
Kerry: Let's hope so. I think what I have admired the most about the Vietnamese government and the Vietnamese people themselves is that they have been very strict on themselves. I mean, here in Australia, we have unfortunately some stories around people just, taking things too lightly and being vagrant, and that has caused outbreaks in particular in Melbourne.
But what I do admire about the Vietnamese and I think it actually leans to their fear of illness, which I know is very high. They fear illness, almost the highest thing that they fear in the world. So, they go to all ends that I've noticed to avoid illness. So, I really admire just the attitude and them being proactive and jumping on this really early.
Etienne: Yeah, and definitely the Vietnamese people are people who listen to what the government tell them. They trust in the government because I mean, let's be honest for the last 20 years Vietnam has been doing really well. So, what people think is not to be critical towards the government so much, because things are doing really well in Vietnam. And Vietnam and like a lot of Asian countries, it's a more collectivist country than in the West, we are more individually. So, we think about ourselves a bit too much, we tend to be a little bit more selfish and then it tends to happens, people say, no, I don't want to wear a mask because it's my freedom and really ridiculous things like this, yeah. Whereas people are not like this in Vietnam, because people understand it's for the good of everyone that everyone should wear a mask.
Kerry: It's a collective, yes agreed. Alright now you've been in the tourism industry for a long time and specializing in your photographic tours, which you do so well. I mean, just really quickly, how do you see Vietnam and tourism in the future? Like, just if you were to crystal ball, what would you say? Are we going to have the buses outside the old town? Like we have in the past, what are your thoughts there?
Etienne: Well, I actually I sold my crystal ball last year because I realized that was not a good idea.
Kerry: Good idea.
Etienne: I'm really good at predicting things for the future, honestly, I do not know. It completely depends on how the situation evolves around the world. Let's say if Europe and the US and maybe Australia is still stuck in a COVID crisis, the first people to come back to Vietnam will be the Asian markets.
And the Asian market is the one that is being shipped by bus and electric car through the old town and making the streets very busy with groups of people doing selfies and things like this, which is fine for the businesses located into the old town, but every other tour business, every little homestay located in the countryside around Hoi An, things like this, they don't really rely on this market to survive. So, for Hoi An to be doing well, like it used to, we need Asian tourism, and we need Western tourism, but who knows when things will get back to normal, if they ever get back to normal.
Kerry: Yes. And what normal will look like in the future, I think is up for grabs in anyone's language.
Kerry: So, let's concentrate on the stuff we do know about and certainly what you know about which is photography. And let's talk about your experience in that area and if you were to talk to our listeners who are avid or keen travel photographers, what is it in Vietnam that would be most appealing to a travel photographer?
Etienne: So, the best thing about Vietnam, and I would say Southeast Asia in general is mostly what people appreciate is the facility, how easy it is compared to the West to take photos of people. And this is something that is really amazing when you're arrive in Southeast Asia, is that you can take photos of people and you can interact with them and it's fine. Whereas in the West, people are very suspicious when you take photos of them.
Kerry: Yeah, for sure.
Etienne: For the wrong reasons, I believe people are a little bit too paranoid. But that's one of the first thing that people enjoy when they come here, and which is what I enjoy as well. And which is the reason why our photography tours and workshops focus 99% on people, photography, and the art of approaching people to take their picture and to compose great images with the human element inside.
Etienne: The other thing people enjoy is how easy it is to travel around, and you go around, and you grab a bus, and you grab a driver, and you can go pretty much everywhere you want. So, you've got the freedom of traveling, things are not restricted, etc. So, you feel safe, you feel free to travel where you want, and it really helps when you can focus on your photography then.
Kerry: Okay, and I mean, I think our social media and all of our travel guides are absolutely always full of the most amazing scenery photography. I mean, there is some amazing scenery you and I have both seen that. Is that something that photographers also come to capture and to do well, obviously it's a different style and a different skillset. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Etienne: Well, it's a little bit more, I mean, if you come from Australia and you're used to a driving an hour and find this huge empty wide landscape, where you can compose some really good sceneries, it's a little bit more difficult to find these things in Vietnam, because there's a very high density of population on the coastline. So, as soon as you're on the coastline, you will have electric wires and new pictures. You will have some big flashy signs in the background that will be a little town or a little city that is kind of spoiling your background. There are some amazing spots, the difficult thing about Vietnam is that we are facing East. And if you want to catch the beautiful lights, you have to wake up really early to catch the sunrise because the sunset is over the mountains of Laos.
And we usually don't have that amazing sunset, but the sunrise is just mind blowing. So, it's a little bit trickier, you;ve got to wake up at 3:30 or 4 in the morning to catch a 4:30, 4:45 sunrise, you know what I mean? Which is what we do on our photography tours because there is human activity as early as four in the morning in fishing villages and things like this. But it's a little bit more difficult and sometimes I've tried it. I've tried with my groups and I've tried myself and I say, okay, this morning, I'm going to take a landscape photo, yeah. And I arrive in the morning and I set up my tripod and I wait for the light to be good and here's people going on around me and I'm thinking, ooh, if I should shoot that woman here in the water, that would be so nice, and I just forget about my scenery shot and jump on the people.
Kerry: So, people is your love is, is that capturing them in motion? And I've heard you often speak about the reality of photos rather than how shall I say staged photos.
I think you've spoken quite vividly about that, and I admire you for that because I think that's reality. And I've done one of your tours, which I loved, which was about creating and being able to take photos of real people in real life situations and I definitely rate that highly.
I'm going to jump in here and ask a big question and I know some people hate answering it, but if I were to say to you, do you have like five, just five top places in Vietnam that you would say would be extremely desirable, for other travel photographer to visit. Do you have five that you would recommend? And we can actually go through one, two, three, four, five, and we can break them apart, but do you have five?
Etienne: Alright, so okay well my first choice would be obviously Hoi An. Okay, because I'm based and because I live in Hoi An. Anyone who has ever been to Hoi An or have seen images of Hoi An, you know that Hoi An is basically like a movie set.
The old town is just magnificent with his old Vilas, all the walls are yellow, and it's still a mix of modernity and tradition in Hoi An. So of course, if you go into the old town, I mean, one year ago, if you were going into the old town 5:00 PM, it was just tourist everywhere.
But if you go into the old town at five in the morning or six in the morning, it's basically Vietnamese, there are no tourists, you are back into the real Vietnam, it's just amazing, the market is busy, people are very friendly. In between two photos you stop on the side of the road to have some noodle soup and some good coffee. I mean, it's just so easy to travel and being in Hoi An, there is choice of hotel, there's a choice of restaurant, there's a choice of spa. You can go have a massage in between two photo shoots, I mean, it's just so easy. So, that would be my first choice and that's why we run a lot of photography tours in central Vietnam.
Kerry: Okay, we put that down as number one.
Etienne: Yeah, number one.
Kerry: So, number two.
Etienne: Number two well, I don't know if I'm allowed to do that, but I'm just going to spread the area a little bit wider. And I would say the countryside around Hoi An, which is very highly unexplored.
A lot of people come to Hoi An and stay in Hoi An. But if you drive five, 10 kilometers outside of town, you are 20 years behind Hoi An. You suddenly reach this countryside where people have never seen a tourist before. It's just that easy, you drive 10 minutes on a motorbike, and you are in a place where people have never seen a tourist before. And it's just then so easy to go and take photos there because naturally when you are positive and you have a positive way of thinking and approaching people and you come with a big smile and you come and talk to the people and take photos and chat with them, people are very curious because they never see tourists here.
So, you don't have to do the work of approaching them to take their picture. They come to you already, oh, what are you doing here, are you lost? Which country are you from?
And oh, why you speak Vietnamese and how long have you been here and why. And boom you don't have to do anything; people come and approach you. So, it's so much easier to go and take photos of them because you don't have to deal with this. Ah, maybe they don't want me to take photo of them, no they just come to you already and smile. So, it just makes it so much easier and it's something I recommend anyone coming to Hoi An to do, is to rent a motorbike or even a bicycle. And to cross that giant Cam Nam bridge that new bridge on the river. And as soon as you arrive south of Hoi An, it is completely untouched in this whole area.
Kerry: And there's beautiful cultural aspects to that as in farming and handcrafts and the markets. And so, it's not just the people, but it's also their environments, isn't it?
Kerry: It's where they live and they carrying on as if time has forgotten them, almost.
Etienne: It’s a jump back in time, you do one more kilometer and it's like five years before, and then you do five more kilometers and then you arrive in a field where they don't harvest the rice with the machine, they're still doing it by hand, but two kilometers behind you saw the machine, yeah. I mean, the more you go towards the mountain area to Laos, the more you get back in time, more and more and more and more. Yeah. So, it's just fantastic to travel there and the people are so, so friendly.
Kerry: Yes, so number three.
Etienne: Number three, which I was about to put that into number two, but I put it in number three, but still, it should be number one, like really, it's for me, it's the mountains of North Vietnam.
And once you go into North Vietnam and you see these mountains, which have been sculpted into rice patties and the way the minority people have just modify the whole landscape to create this stunning, like for landscape photography it is just amazing and for people photography as well, that rural markets and people in the field and minority villages, this is just, we run photography tours in North Vietnam every year in September during the rice harvest. It's Just still one of my favorite tours to run. Even after eight years of going there every year or several times a year, it's just fantastic. I was there two weeks ago.
Kerry: And you know, it's funny, you say you've you go there several times and you still find something new, don't you. That's what I find about Vietnam, I go back to some of the same places, but there's just something new to discover; you talking about Sapa and Hanoi, can you give me locations where you go in North Vietnam specifically?
Etienne: Well, from North Vietnam you can go from Hanoi, you can basically go to Mai Chau. Either on the highway or with a train and from Mai Chau you either go left towards Sapa, which Sapa was a place to avoid from the last three, four years.
Etienne: It's been overcrowded with Chinese and construction and it became ugly full of concrete. But actually, now is a really good time to go there. And I have a lot of friends who live in Vietnam, who are actually in the North right now, it's fantastic time to travel in Vietnam now. If you can, I mean, until five days ago because there are no international tourism, and all the homestays are open.
So, you could basically travel through the country without any other tourists, but it's fantastic. But as you said, it's changing every year, every year you go and the field is different and mostly from the photography point of view on that day, the light is different and that field was busy with people, but then you come, two weeks later, the field is gone.
There's nothing, the light is different, and they are doing something else on some other field or in the market. And there's always new things to find. And when it's about people, photography is what I love about it. Yeah, landscape is a landscape. If you wake up early in the morning, you set up your camera, take a photo, then suddenly your cloud shows up, well, there's nothing you can do, you just go home.
People photography, you can move around them and if they're in the field and a cloud shows up and it start raining, well, then you follow them. They will invite you to have some tea in their house, and then you can keep shooting in different environments. and it's just so dynamic and interesting.
Kerry: Yes, definitely and let's face it. People make everything don't they like, because they have a personality, because they have a locality to speak to, they have a history, and they have emotions. And I think that is what is most desirable in people photography, certainly from my point of view anyway.
Etienne: Yeah, definitely.
Kerry: Okay, so I'm up to number four. What's your number four,
Etienne: Oh, number four let me think. I think for four, I recently really fell in love with, so, it's not one particular area, but something I would recommend to any tourists coming to Hoi An is to go and explore the coastline between Hoi An and basically Qui Nhon. So, Qui Nhon is located South basically.
Kerry: So, we talking Tam Ky.
Etienne: I'm talking from Tam ky and heading South of that, the next 200 kilometers coastline.
Kerry: Oh, Yeah.
Etienne: It's a completely untouched area,
Kerry: I know.
Etienne: Like they start having tourists come into Qui Nhon. But if you go to Tuy Hoa, if you go to any area between Qui Nhon and Hoi An is just fantastic, the things you can find over there.
Kerry: Yes, I was talking to someone about Tam Ky and Kon Tum beach, which is on that way, but you're right. Qui Nhon is an area I haven't been to yet. But it's one I certainly wanted to discover, and it does look so beautiful and so untouched.
Etienne: It is really stunning, I mean, it's not something I would recommend any tourist to go, any travel because it's, there's not much accommodation like for Western tourists, the restaurants, you have to eat local because there is no tourism there. But for anyone who has an interest in photography, every single fishing village is mind-blowing, you can find salt fields it's full of rice fields, everywhere calm and the people are just so friendly. They never see foreigners there, so it's very easy to travel in these areas.
Kerry: And it is developing Etienne, it is becoming a little bit more, how shall I say international tourist friendly. There are some places being developed in those areas but let's hope it doesn't get overrun.
Etienne: Yeah, once again, it's the same thing. Someone will open a hotel in a town, and someone will open another hotel in the same time, but you go 10 kilometers to the next town, there is nothing. So, it's still very easy to get out as soon as the tourism infrastructure happened somewhere, it's still very easy to get out of this place.
Kerry: Agreed, okay so number five on your list.
Etienne: Number five, I'd say Hanoi, just Hanoi City you know, the Old Quarter around Huon Kiem Lake.
Etienne: Early morning, six and eight in the morning is just the ladies pushing the bicycles, going to the market through the old Villa, I know you like this area a lot, yeah. It's just fun to walk around Hanoi and either practice street photography, or do foody travel photography, it's always a pleasure, always a real pleasure,
Kerry: Yes, and you know, that it's quite unusual in the sense, it has an atmosphere that goes with it, you know. People are dancing, there's men playing checkers.
Etienne: Man doing fishing things on the lake, people once again.
Kerry: Yeah, and there's farmers that meet there, it's delightful, it's got a lot happening.
Etienne: There are basically thousands of people walking or running around the Lake doing exercise. They actually block the traffic early morning, there are no motorbikes, no cars. And along the Lake is just people running and riding their bicycles and everyone is in a good mood and having coffee and you walk around, take photos and no one cares, it's just very easy.
Kerry: So, getting just very quickly, and I don't want to get into this in a big way, but from a technical point of view what do you suggest for a travel photographer to bring as far as equipment. Well, let's say if they were to join you on a tour or they were to do a tour of themselves, you know what would you advise?
Etienne: Well, okay, this depends on anyone's photography and what they like, etc.
What I usually recommend when people come from, a lot of people come from Australia on the tour and they message me before. And what should I take, etc. What we do here, because we do people photography and because people photography is not fun until you know about your subject a little bit.
I believe I tell people just to leave the zoom lens at home here, we usually tend to get close to everything. Because when you get close to your subject, you can interact with them, you can see what they do, you can move around your subject. So, you can compose many different images. if you wear the big zoom lens, you will say something far where you would point and shoot, and you're just not as creative in terms of composition, as you are. If you were with a 35-millimeter close to your subject, where you could easily move, right, move, left, move up and down and change your composition instantly.
And people photography for me, it's called travel photography and the photography is important, but the travel, is maybe more important. And if I take a nice photo of a man, but I don't have any interaction or any memory to myself or that, I just don't feel satisfied.
I want to take a great photo, but I want to have a good laugh with this person, I want to know about them a little bit and somehow, I want to manage to give them something back and giving them something back, I'm not meaning giving them money. I mean, having an interaction with them, so when I leave this interaction, they're happy and I'm happy. And usually, I mean, many, many of my students have witnessed this and when you come from the West, it's really weird, but we go in a field and there are a group of people working and we talk with them and we laugh with them and we take the photos and then we leave and they say, thank you. Can you imagine in that way, it's just impressive.
Kerry: Yes, I can't imagine that in the West at all. It does bring up a subject that I even get asked around the expression of gratitude. You know, there are people that say, should we offer them some money, should we pay them to take a photograph, how do we do this respectfully and do this in a way that as you say, from both sides, it is a wonderful experience and memory to take home.
Etienne: This is a really grey area, and I would reply to this question in a different way, depending on who I'm talking to, but because I think your followers are Australian, so it's fine, like I don't have one opinion on this.
Kerry: Oh, Etienne, I have followers all over the world Etienne, not just Australia. Thank goodness, I've got them from everywhere.
Etienne: Okay, so I'll have to be careful then what I say, but no, it's a very grey area and some people get really sometimes upset when I reply. But what I tell people, you can not show up in a place and think, oh, I have more money than them and so, I'm going to give them some money. It's just not the way the world works and you just giving people the wrong image. If you arrive in a village and in the countryside, no one will ask you for money and you arrive in a village and you take a photo of this old lady in the field and you think, oh, she's old and she looks poor, I'm going to give her some money, but she didn't ask you for anything. And a lot of people do that because in the West, we relate everything with money.
Well, that woman who doesn't really know, maybe she's never been to school much. And then she's like, oh, foreigners give money, this is what they do. Boom, the next time I show up in the same field, the day after she's going to wait for me and say, give me money. And the experience will be spoiled, will be destroyed because she suddenly foreigner equals money.
And you tend to give this idea to people, that's okay if a foreigner comes in the field and take your photo, he is going to give you some money, which it could be sometimes. I mean, sometimes I give money to people, but I give money to people, when I know they need the money, when I've been talking with them, not just giving them money because I took a photo of them and I feel bad because I took something from them and I feel I need to give them something back, but something doesn't have to be financial, it doesn't have to be material, interact with them, show them the picture and give them a good laugh.
That's it, you give them something back, you create this interaction and now they're like, oh, this foreigner people are really friendly. They're actually getting their feet in the mud and they make me laugh and they have a good experience with foreigners. So, if you want to help the people, there are many other ways you can work with a local NGO and give some money to this NGO that will have older people in a certain area. But if you yourself not knowing the people show up somewhere and give money, you have more chance to destroy the place than to help anyone.
Kerry: Well, I think that's good advice and I think, it is a very individual thing. However, as you say, if you're going to set a precedent maybe it's not a good idea and there are some great NGOs in Vietnam to support. And I think from a holistic point of view, it's not just an individual, they're very community minded. So, it's more about what you can do to support a whole community when you're entering it, I think it's worth mentioning.
Etienne: Exactly, yeah so, if you give your list to someone today, what are they going to do with it? Is it going to help them more, not at all.
Kerry: Exactly, okay so just to wrap up and I know it's probably a crazy question to ask you because you do run photography tours, but for a traveler who has a real keen interest in photography and they want to get the best out of Vietnam, do you recommend people, you know, choosing to do a tour to include that as part of their visit or do you think you can like just make it up as they go along and as you say, hire a bike, blah, blah, blah. I mean, I have my own interpretation and thoughts on that, I personally think going with the tour is the way to go, because sometimes you lose time in trying to find the right places. Where if you are with a guide and a person like yourself that knows all the top spots and knows how to get there quickly, and efficiently, and then can add expertise to what you're doing. So, in other words, you know, help me increase my skills at the same time, I think that's a win-win. But maybe you have some broader thoughts. Do you think people can do it on their own? Or is it best they do it with a tour operator?
Etienne: Obviously, if anyone who is keen in photography joins like a photography tour, how can I say that which is not a fake, dodgy tour that someone made because photography tour was a popular keyword on Google, but something that really brings them to the right place at the right time of the day. Of course, it is the best way to do things.
Where I would start to differentiate from your answer is for people who are into photography here and don't want as you said, hustle, and find a location themselves and rent a motorbike and drive there, which I would recommend people to try and do, because getting lost is a great way to travel. But if people sign up just for tour people find a local tour guide and tell them I'm interested in photography, take me to the right place.
You know, most tour guides, they don't want to change the itineraries, they have their routine, they have their places, they know tourists like to go to this tourist place and that will still try to take you to these tourist places. And I think even though you are clear with your guy that I want to do photography, I don't want to go where tourists go. They will still somehow tend to take you to the place where the tourists go, because it's just easy for them. So, unless you find someone who really knows about photography, who really understands what you're looking for then it can make your life much easier, definitely.
The way I travel myself is I do a lot of research before, so for example, if I want to open a new photography tour, like what I did in Iran, like three years ago, I did a lot of research about the country.
The second thing I do, I check where the tourists go and where I don't want to go then. And then I contact local photographers and I spend a lot of time on Instagram, looking at photos of Iran. And I meet photographers who take photos that I think are really great and then I get in touch with them and I say, okay, I'm coming to your town, can you meet me? Can you take me to these places? And a mix of information, you can find online, a mix of information you can get from local photographers and kind of mixing all this together helps me to create my itinerary already.
But most of the time I found amazing locations, not by finding them online, yeah by the local contacts who took me to places that just blew my mind. So, I would recommend people do that.
Kerry: Okay, so in wrapping up, we're going to say it's actually good to get lost, to find the best spot.
Etienne: Always, not for too long, but it's good, yeah.
Kerry: Absolutely and people photography is definitely something that's open to photographers in Vietnam as some of the best shots taken in Vietnam are of the people. And for scenery, we're going to rate North Vietnam as the number one, as in your big panoramic shots.
Etienne: North Vietnam number one, I put the lagoons of central Vietnam, number two, we have some amazing lagoons between Hoi An and Hue where the sunrise is just phenomenal.
Kerry: Ah, yes and from the Hai Van Pass, all that is beautiful as well.
Etienne: Yeah, exactly.
Kerry: Yes, I just want to say thank you very much Etienne for coming on the show. I'm sure everyone listening has got a lot out of this, lovely to talk to you and catch up on just what's happening in Vietnam at the moment.
Kerry: And good luck and best wishes to your family stay well, stay safe. And we will be talking to you soon.
Etienne: Thanks, Kerry. We'll be staying home for the next days and see how the situation evolves here, but we are confident things will get under control soon.
Kerry: Great. Thanks very much Etienne.
Etienne: Thanks Kerry.
Kerry: Thank you Etienne for coming on the show. It's been great to talk through just so many aspects to Vietnam and the possibilities available for both the professional and the amateur photographer. For everyone I have put Etienne links to a Hoi An photo tours and picks of Asia in the episode notes. Please, don't forget to share this podcast with your friends and family who may be thinking about coming to Vietnam in the future. I mean, we're all in the position at the moment where we're researching, planning, so, please put Vietnam on your map, it's a wonderful destination to visit. I look forward to talking with you in future episodes. Thank you and be safe everyone.