Enquire here about travel to Vietnam for life changing dental and cosmetic surgery procedures. Dental & Cosmetic Surgery Enquiry Thank you for your interest in trusted dental and cosmetic surgery services in Vietnam. Complete the form below so we can connect you directly with Worldwide Dental & Cosmetic Hospital, our long-term partner in Ho Chi Minh City. There’s no extra charge for using our referral service — you pay the same hospital prices, with the added benefit of our support and optional travel coordination. Personal Information Full Name Age Email Phone/WhatsApp Gender Country of Residence Preferred travel month / dates Are these dates flexible? Y/N Dental Treatment Enquiry Crowns / Bridges Implants Teeth Whitening Full Smile Makeover Veneers Fillings / Restorations Extractions Other (describe below) Dental notes (previous work, goals, etc) Cosmetic Surgery Enquiry Facial Enhancements Eyes (eyelid lift, double eyelid) Face (full facelift, mini-lift, contouring) Neck (lift, tightening, fat removal) Nose (rhinoplasty, reshaping Body Contouring Stomach (tummy tuck, contouring) Liposuction Skin tightening / rejuvenation Arm, thigh and butt lift Preferred time for treatment / travel Prefered time for treatment / travel 1 - 3 months 3-6 months 6 - 12 months Just exploring options Budget range (optional) Travel and Accommodation I would like help arranging flights, accommodation and private tours during my stay I will make my own travel arrangements Consultation Support Kelley McCarthy, our experienced Medical & Beauty Consultant, is available for direct consultations to help you decide on treatment options and timing. Would you like a Zoom consult with Kelley? Would you like a Zoom call with Kelley? Yes please Not at this stage Additional notes or questions Consent and Disclaimer (please tick) in agreement REQUIRED I understand that What About Vietnam acts solely as an introduction and customer service agent, referring my enquiry to Worldwide Dental & Cosmetic Hospital for professional consultation and services. I consent to my name, email address, and enquiry details being shared securely with Worldwide Dental & Cosmetic Hospital for the purpose of contacting me directly about my enquiry. I understand that What About Vietnam is not responsible for any medical or surgical outcomes, as all consultations, procedures, and after-care are managed directly by the clinic. What About Vietnam receives a small affiliate referral fee that does not affect the price I pay to the hospital. I consent to being contacted by What About Vietnam or Worldwide Dental & Cosmetic Hospital regarding my enquiry. Privacy: We take your personal details seriously. We only share your name, email and enquiry details with Worldwide Dental & Cosmetic Hospital for the purposes of responding to your request. We do not sell or share your data with other parties. Once submitted, your enquiry will be forwarded to Worldwide Dental & Cosmetic Hospital, who will contact you directly to discuss options and next steps. I have read and agree to the Terms and Conditions Submit Enquiry Thanks for submitting!

Life changing Dental and Cosmetic surgery now affordable in Vietnam. No matter how big, small or complex your surgery requirement is, this hospital has the experts you are looking for in dental and cosmetic surgery. Kerry checking out Worldwide Hospital Kelley explains visually a dental procedure Saigon City (HCMC) Highlights World renowned Dental & Cosmetic Surgery -in Vietnam Life changing Dental and cosmetic surgery now affordable in Vietnam through 'What About Vietnam'. Contact u s for a fully customised consultation and quotation - See seperate form to enquire Enquire Now to receive 5% discount Click Here Why put off Major Dental or Cosmetic Treatments because they are just too expensive in your own country? Worldwide offer superior dental quality - we know and trust from our own experience. What Abou t Vietnam Medical Travel is your Customer Service agent to world class advanced elective dental surgery in Vietnam. Our focus for 2025 onwards will be in the area of Dental and Cosmetic surgery, so make sure you talk to Kelley at What About Vietnam about her experiences and advice. See what's available and get your quotation with our full support at NO extra cost. Why not talk to someone who has direct experience with our partner Worldwide Dental & Cosmetic Surgery Hospital F ind out what is possible! Let us provide you with the wealth of our experience with Worldwide. The dedicated team at Worldwide Dental & Cosmetic Surgery Hospital has restored the smiles of over 100,000 patients from around the world, consistently achieving remarkable success in all dental treatments. Discover a new world of dental excellence at Worldwide Beauty Hospital . Join us on a journey to enhance your beauty and boost your confidence. Explore the vibrant culture of Vietnam in a holiday w hile receiving world-class care. Your radiant smile begins here. Click here to complete enquiry form Packages can include:- Airport pick up and return Complete consultation with our own team and doctors All levels of accommodation Concierge services during entire stay Why not turn your treatment into a holiday? 3* to 5* travel options A diverse range of experiences can be designed around your treatment Pre-surgery and post surgery celebratory dinners Optional pre-surgery sight-seeing tours Optional extended post-surgery stay and sight-seeing tours Why not consider a beauty treatment as a holiday and a chance to come home a new person? Packages can include:- Vietnam Domestic airfares Airport pick up Complete consultation with our own team Luxury accommodation Concierge services during entire stay Why not turn your treatment into a holiday? 3* to 5* travel options A diverse range of experiences can be designed around your treatment Pre-surgery and post surgery celebratory dinners Optional pre-surgery sight-seeing tours Optional extended Post-Surgery stay and sight-seeing tours Get in touch with our Australian Experience Manager- Kelley McCarthy. Ask for a quotation as direct comparison to your current quotation Discuss options Ask for advice on how to travel and possibly extend stay Discuss travel experiences for companions travelling with you Have us arrange a direct consultation with the Doctor Why not get a comparison quotation on your dental treatment - We think you will be pleasantly surprised !! Crowns and Bridges Root Canals Wisdom Teeth Removal Inplants Teeth Whitening

Vietnam travel planning & itinerary design: accommodation advice, budgeted to your specs, transportation, food and dining and cultural activities. What About Vietnam Travel Services Travel Services Travel Services Travel Services Travel Services 1/11 Kerry Newsome Kelley McCarthy Welcome to What About Vietnam's Travel Services Through the success of my What About Vietnam podcast — and with travel thriving across Vietnam — I’m thrilled to offer a full suite of personalised travel planning and booking services, in partnership with my trusted Vietnam-based Destination Management Company (DMC). As someone who has spent over a decade exploring every corner of Vietnam — from bustling Saigon to the quiet rice terraces of the north — I bring genuine insider knowledge to every itinerary I design. My role is to help you experience your Vietnam, your way. Whether you’re travelling solo, as a couple, with friends, or in a private group, I offer end-to-end travel services, including: Domestic flights and local travel modes ie bus, train and private car Luxury and boutique and eco friendly accommodation bookings Private tours and transfers with professional English-speaking guides Special interest travel such as wellness, culinary, adventure, and cultural immersion experiences Tailored extensions to destinations like Cambodia and Laos 24/7 in-country support from my Vietnam-based travel team Working through my licensed DMC ensures your trip runs smoothly from start to finish, with all arrangements handled locally by professionals who understand Vietnam inside and out. Together, we curate travel experiences that are safe, seamless, and deeply memorable — designed exclusively around your interests, timing, and comfort. If you’re ready to explore Vietnam beyond the brochure, I’d love to help you design your perfect journey. Request a quotation HERE.

The place where you get to discover amazing traveller experiences in Vietnam. Let us know how we can help you with your travel enquiry. WHAT ABOUT VIETNAM with Kerry Newsome Photo Credit - Gerard Gerhard Latest Episode S1 E 11 Last words for 2025 00:00 / 32:38 Xin Chao and Welcome to the No 1 Vietnam Travellers Podcast website TRIP PLANNING SERIES 1 SERIES 2 SERIES 3 SERIES 4 SERIES 5 Go to Visa info Welcome to WhatAboutVietnam.com (WAV) as we like to call it! The place where you get to discover amazing traveller experiences in Vietnam Listen - to the "What About Vietnam" - Traveller Insights Podcast here or on your favourite channel. Search - by name of the episode, destination or experience to find the best Podcast, Blog, Transcript or Video to match your enquiry. Read - The Travel Podcast Transcripts and blogs about many different experiences you can enjoy in Vietnam. Save as a PDF or download to print. Watch - Our Trailer Videos on our NEW- YOUTUBE channel Reach out - Send us an email and let us know how we can help you with your travel enquiry. Let me and my guests be your personal guides, mentors, tutors, and fun experts. We all have a story to tell about traveling about, living there or working in Vietnam. Each episode has something for everyone. I hope you will come to know, love, and share this page and my podcast with others to help them discover the true beauty and wonder that is Vietnam. Kerry Newsome Hi, my name is Kerry Newsome and I am your host on the What About Vietnam Podcast. If you have a subject, destination or experience you would like to know more about, why not drop me a quick message here and I will do my utmost to get you the information you have requested. Thank you and I hope you enjoy the next show. Kerry Subscribe to What About Vietnam through your favourite channel And many other channels What About Vietnam is proud to be a member of Auscham Vietnam - Australian Chamber of Commerce Submit Thanks for submitting!

What About Vietnam 's Kerry Newsome specialises in informing first-time travelers to Vietnam through podcasts and transcripts. What About Vietnam is your voice of experience. Phone: AUS +614 416 677 793 Meet our Speciality Services Director Travel Companions Travel Companions Travel Companions Travel Companions 1/7 with Kelley McCarthy Request an eMeet Feel the difference a travel companion makes! Welcome to What About Vietnam's Speciality Services - Dental and Cosmetic Surgery My name is Kelley McCarthy and together with Kerry Newsome, we want to open Vietnam to everyone. Even those who think at this stage that is a ‘leap too far”! A little bit about Kelley, that's me. .. I am a happily married woman with 1 child. Up until now, I have been working as the Centre Director of Childcare for the last few years to fund my passion for Travel….. I have travelled extensively in Asia both solo and with my family for the last 17 years and have always wanted to break away from what we used to refer to as the“ 9 to 5 “norm, and follow my love of travel and share my experiences of this region through the eyes of new travellers. Having known Kerry Newsome for over 20 years (and a few more but lets not go there) and working with her as her Personal Assistant many years ago I am extremely excited to collaborate our knowledge and experiences in Dental and Cosmetic surgery to bring you the best of Vietnam! Both is customer service and professionalism. As we have both travelled to Vietnam numerous times per year over the years we have seen many changes, experienced different seasons and spent time in this wonderful country during different cultural celebrations along with navigating mishaps which has allowed us to refine and recommend the best of the best, for an unforgettable experience….. jump aboard and let me work with you to experience the best there is in dental and cosmetic procedures in HCMC.

What About Vietnam 's Kerry Newsome specialises in informing first-time travelers to Vietnam through podcasts and transcripts. We offer Girl's Getaways and other specialised travel. What About Vietnam is your voice of experience. Phone: AUS +614 416 677 793 A Girls Getaway to Vietnam Tour What About Vietnam _ Girls Getaway 2024 What About Vietnam Girls Getaway - 2024 Guys experiences 1 Girls Getaway What About Vietnam _ Girls Getaway 2024 1/12 with Kelley McCarthy Booking Information Request an eMeet Feel the difference a hosted tour with a local Guide can make to your experience of Vietnam A What About Vietnam Girls Getaway Hosted Tour 2 NEW DATES : 14th March - 25th March 17th September - 28th September Introducing the Ultimate Girls Getaway in Vietnam for 2024 We've carefully crafted this experience with the modern female traveller in mind. Whether you're young or young at heart, there's something here for everyone. Get ready to indulge in delectable cuisine, enjoy some retail therapy, immerse yourself in enriching cultural encounters, pamper yourself with luxurious experiences, and explore Vietnam at a pace that truly allows you to savour every moment of your well-deserved holiday. And, of course, it's all about the fun, giggles, and embracing the beautiful Vietnamese culture we adore. Be prepared for 3 different kinds of experiences in Vietnam 1) A major city, 2) An old town, 3) An Island It all starts in Saigon otherwise known as HCMC - The city Let us lead the way through the city's iconic landmarks such as the Notre-Dame Cathedral, Central Post Office and the War Remnants Museum. We will indulge in some retail therapy including visiting the famous Ben Thanh Markets, along with a few hidden treasures a little bit harder to find. You will then be treated to some of the best coffee in town finishing up with a lazy cruise on the harbour enjoying a delicious buffet dinner. The Old Town Next, it's off to Hoi An, a UNESCO World Heritage Site famous for its stunning ancient architecture and beautiful lantern-lit streets. This charming town is the perfect place to relax, unwind, and indulge in some pampering. We will explore the local cuisine by taking a cooking class where you will learn how to make traditional Vietnamese dishes, and afterwards we will get local tailors to make us custom-made clothes which will be the envy of all our friends back home. The Island Finally, we finish our journey in the stunning island paradise of Phu Quoc. Surrounded by crystal clear waters and lush tropical forests, Phu Quoc is the perfect place to unwind and soak up the sun. We will explore the island by hopping on a scenic boat ride that’s take us to those beautiful turquoise waters you see in all the photos. What sets us apart? We focus on the little things that matter, ensuring you have an intimate and personalized journey. Unlike larger tour companies, we keep our groups small, allowing us to visit places that can cater to our needs and desires. Boutique luxury is our motto, and we want you to feel completely taken care of from the moment you sign up. No stress, no hassle – just pure enjoyment. For first-time solo travelers, we highly recommend bringing along a girlfriend, mother, daughter, or sister to join you. Not only will it enhance the experience, but you'll also save on room rates – it's a win-win! What's different in our tours in 2024 ? We're thrilled to announce that we now offer the flexibility to join part of the tour if you're visiting Vietnam with family or a group but still want to experience the magic of our Girls Getaway. Whether it's exploring the island paradise or embracing the vibrant city; or following your host and local guide as they share their knowledge and expertise to take you through the alleys of HOI AN. It’s just one sneaky away to have a bit of girl time that YOU didn’t have to plan. You just get to join in the fun and meet a great bunch of girls there for the same reasons. Guys, we aren’t leaving you out this year! We have got something for you too! The feedback from 2023, was you were feeling a tad left out. So as ‘Trip Planning ‘ is Kerry’s speciality, we have created some discerning options tailored to your interests, from golf and adventure, to caving, wellness, trekking, and the opportunity to compete in marathons; or maybe a bucket list thing like obtaining your Padi diving certificate. All these fantastic experiences can be individually designed just for you and we have the best operators in Vietnam to make it happen. Value for money, along with flexibility in a small group ( shorter versions of the whole tour): Plus something for the guys, is what is going to make our tours stand out! So, if you're ready to embark on a journey filled with joy, laughter, and lifelong memories, head over to our website to check out the new tour dates and descriptions. Get in touch with us via email, and we'll gladly provide pricing and further options to ensure you have the best experience imaginable. Join us on this unforgettable Girls Getaway tour to Vietnam, and let's create memories that will last a lifetime! See you in Vietnam! What does the ‘overall’ tour include: (Check with us directly on the sectioned tours) All pricing includes: A fully hosted tour with Kelley McCarthy and Kerry Newsome managing the tour experiences Pick up from Airport on day of arrival at HCMC (International Airport) 3 Domestic airfares – HCMC to Danang, Danang to Phu Quoc, Phu Quoc to HCMC Buffet Breakfast daily, 5 x Lunches + 4 Dinners All entrance fees to activities mentioned in the program An English Speaking Guide supporting the tour hosts in each location All transportation and Airport pick ups provided in private air conditioned vehicles 4* Boutique Accommodation in all locations 2.5 hour face/body pampering Experience A Dinner cruise on Saigon River (Excluding alcohol) A cooking class in Hoi An where by you get to enjoy your prepared meals for Lunch Show in Hoi An Boat and day Tour Phu Quoc Dinner last night Phu Quoc (Excluding alcohol) Plus many optionals to choose from to enhance your trip as you wish. PLEASE NOTE: THE TOUR WILL NOT GO AHEAD IF THE GROUP SIZE NOT REACH 8 PERSONS. MAXIMUM GROUP SIZE 10 PERSONS. Check with us directly for pricing of Men’s options for a full tour or for a sectioned tour to marry up with the Girls sectioned tour. Don't miss out on the ultimate girls getaway – Get in touch with us now and treat yourself to an unforgettable experience! Email us whataboutvietnamTCservices@gmail.com for pricing. Full Itinerary

What About Vietnam 's Kerry Newsome specialises in informing first-time travelers to Vietnam through podcasts and transcripts. What About Vietnam is your voice of experience. Phone: AUS +614 416 677 793 Travel Companion Services Travel Companions Travel Companions Travel Companions Travel Companions 1/14 with Kelley McCarthy Request a Quote Request an eMeet Feel the difference a travel companion makes! “One on one” companion services in Vietnam for individuals, small groups and families Travel Companion services are becoming increasingly popular for travellers who value safety, comfort, and convenience. There are many changes in life that can happen such as Health, Career, Grief and Relationship changes which makes you want to just ‘Get Away’ from it all.. But... YES the famous BUT. We don't all have the same calenders, health status, cheque account or lifestyles. We know the value of a stress-free and enjoyable travel experience. So we want to open the door to Vietnam because we believe it has the right culture to achieve that. What About Vietnam - Travel companion services "What's is all about".? Safety - The safety of our clients is our number one priority. Firstly, from a familiarity standpoint, you should have come to know the operator and host of the What About Vietnam Podcast; Kerry Newsome. It is through her, and her partner Kelley McCarthy that we can make this happen. Furthermore, the safety factor is reinforced by various measures such as we do background checks on staff, monitoring of the travel route, and emergency response protocols. We only work with local travel providers with a proven track record of safety and emergency protocols. Travellers should feel confident that they are in safe hands and have access to help should they need it. Comfort - We never underestimate the fact that this country can challenge us with our comfort levels. Bustling cities, mad with motorbikes, and heat exhaustion all play a role in travel in Vietnam. Its important we make our clients as comfortable as possible. This can be achieved through a variety of services, such as providing comfortable transportation, support with fatigue, luggage, moving walkways, lifts & escalators, hotels and providing refreshments. A friendly and professional demeanor on the part of your Travel Companion Director can also contribute greatly to a traveler's overall comfort level. Convenience and local knowledge - Our travel companion service aims to make travel as convenient as possible for its clients. If it’s just too hard, and it’s only going to bring stress and worry to the activity, we won’t be suggesting it. Back up support to this includes travelling with local guides, consultation with operators prior to trip planning design, and feedback from you. Then we leave the final decision after you have all the facts, to you. The goal is to make the travel experience as smooth and stress-free as possible. Trust - Trust is a crucial component of a travel companion service. Clients should feel confident that the service will keep their personal information secure and will act in their best interests at all times. We have very clear policies and procedures in place to ensure that clients' privacy is protected and provide a travel checklist of to do’s such as: Get travel insurance, put medications in your carry on luggage and bring a medication list/letter from your doctor, travel light, wear quality shoes, have back up glasses (if needed), keep the bling at home and don’t promote on social media your away from home. Yes, Travel Companion preparation and assistance even begins before you start your journey! Affordability - While quality and comfort are important, we appreciate a travel companion service, is a premium service. We are not going to be priced for everyone, we know that. However, we do offer competitive prices, flexible payment options, and a range of services to suit different budgets. We want you to feel that you are getting good value for money and that the services provided are well worth the cost. Our Travel Companion services are best suited to: Solo Travellers - Solo travellers often choose a Travel Companion service for added safety, comfort, and company on their trips. This type of service can provide peace of mind, prevent loneliness, stimulate positive thoughts and interactions, avoid social isolation and help the solo traveller make the most of their travel experience. In our case each one is assessed on their own merit for suitability and safety purposes. Mature Travellers - Mature travellers may choose a Travel Companion service for assistance with transportation, support with technology such as self service devices in some locations, navigating unfamiliar destinations, and for companionship. This type of service can help ensure that mature travellers have a safe and enjoyable trip and enjoy their new found freedom. In the case of mature travelers with a disability of some kind, we would need to assess if our services are up to the appropriate standards to manage effectively. This would be done in the discovery session in initial consultation. Business Travellers - Business travellers may choose a Travel Companion service to assist with logistics and provide a more comfortable and efficient travel experience. This type of service can help business travellers make the most of their time and focus on their business objectives. Family Travellers - Family travellers may choose a Travel Companion service for assistance with navigating unfamiliar destinations, managing travel logistics, and ensuring that everyone has a safe and enjoyable trip. Sometimes as a family not everyone wants or is capable of doing all the same things at the same time. Sometimes it suits the family to have a Travelling Companion to help split up activities and allow for more scope of experiences and joy all round. This type of service can be tailored to suit, to help make family travel more stress-free and enjoyable for everyone involved. In conclusion , The What About Vietnam Travel Companion Service can be tailored to your needs as we go through the discovery process from day 1- And that begins with an interview with our Director of TCS – Kelley McCarthy – Why not set one up today. What About Vietnam Travel Services is devoting this kind of service as a key deliverable of its Podcast and Travel Business, and service to Tourism in Vietnam.

Vietnam travel podcasts featuring stories and interviews about north Vietnam destinations North Vietnam S2-24 Explore Bac Ha Markets Go to Episode S2-14 Social Enterprise Travel Go to Episode S2-23 Vietnam Cooking Classes Go to Episode S2-05 Explore Mai Chau Go to Episode S2-21 Vietnamese Trail Marathons Go to Episode S2-07 Hoi An Top 10 must dos Go to Episode S2-15 Sapa North Vietnam Go to Episode S2-02 Shopping Vietnam Go to Episode S3-16 Things NOT always in a tour Go to Episode S3-02 Mu Cang Chai Go to Episode S3-09 Photographic experiences Go to Episode S3-08 Food Adventure Go to Episode S3-05 Ha Giang Loop Go to Episode S4-25 A fun Guide to droning - Photos Part 3 Go to Episode S4-18 Luxury Brand Travel Experiences Go to Episode S4-12 Contemporary Art in Vietnam Go to Episode S4-24 Take beautiful photos Part 2 Go to Episode S4-17 Vietnam Traveller Insights 2022 Go to Episode S4-10 Hanoi A Foodies Paradise P2 Go to Episode S4-23 Take beautiful photos Part 1 Go to Episode S4-16 Mystical Ninh Binh Go to Episode S4-09 Hanoi A Foodies Paradise P1 Go to Episode S4-22 Trekking in Sapa A wide lens view Go to Episode S4-15 Travelling as a solo woman Go to Episode S4-04 Vietnam Wedding Planning Go to Episode S5-E27 – Discovering Catholic treasures in Vietnam Go to Episode S5-E18 Hanoi Below the Surface Go to Episode S5-E8 – Empowering the Traveller to fight Human Trafficking Go to Episode S5-E24 Ha Giang Insider tips for an Unforgettable Adventure Go to Episode S5-E17 Motorbike Riding in Vietnam tips and adventures Go to Episode S5-E7 - The Rise of Vietnam's Unique Dining Experiences Go to Episode S5-E22 10 things travellers may not know about Vietnam Go to Episode S5-E16 Smart phone apps and tech tip Go to Episode S5-E6 Explore the ‘Land of Lychees’ – Bac Giang Go to Episode S5-E21 Vietnam Tet Holiday - Preparation and Tips for Tourists Go to Episode S5-E15 Yen Bai Luxury in the Heart of Nature Go to Episode S5-E4 Exploring Living and Working in Vietnam Go to Episode

What About Vietnam helps create a meaningful trip with the help and guidance of TUBUDD local buddies and travel experts. MAKE YOUR TRIP EASY 
WITH A LOCAL BUDDY Discover Vietnam with a buddy at your side. Why not create more meaningful travel with the help and guidance of local buddies and travel experts. For your next trip to Vietnam – Download the TUBUDD App and book a buddy to help you navigate the nuances of Vietnam and enjoy a more meaningful experience in your location. Special Offer: 5% Discount on All Bookings with Code KERRYVN5 at TUBUDD Discover Vietnam like never before with Tubudd! As a supporter of the "What About Vietnam" podcast, you can now enjoy a 5% discount on all bookings using the code KERRYVN5. Tubudd is your go-to platform, connecting you with local experts for personalized and authentic experiences in Vietnam. Whether you're diving into the rich culture, managing healthcare needs, or handling business affairs, Tubudd ensures a seamless and enriching experience. Services Provided by Tubudd Travel Buddy Description: Immerse yourself in Vietnam's vibrant culture with the help of our enthusiastic Local Buddies. They tailor your itinerary, providing deep insights into local life, history, and cuisine, ensuring each journey is unique and unforgettable. Pricing: Starting from $5/hour. Get a 5% discount for bookings made using Code KERRYN5 Health Buddy Description: Overcome language barriers and smoothly navigate medical appointments with our Health Buddies. They connect you with trusted hospitals and clinics, offering the latest information and translation services for a stress-free healthcare journey. Support your visits to our dental and beauty procedures through Worldwide dental and beauty Hospital : Talk to us at What About Vietnam for more supportive services through this arrangement with Worldwide. Business Assistant Description: Streamline your business trips with our Business Assistants. They handle paperwork, translation, and market research, leveraging their industry expertise to ensure efficient business operations in Vietnam. To get your 5% discount on all bookings. Apply the code KERRYVN5 https://www.tubudd.com/

Vietnam travel podcasts featuring stories and interviews about trip planning for Vietnam travel Trip Planning S1-E11 Go to Episode S1-07 8 Tips for travel during Tet Go to Episode S1-E10 Getting your Visa right Go to Episode S1-06 Culture and Visas Go to Episode S1-E09 Vietnam Travel First Impressions Go to Episode S1-08 Join a packaged group tour or DIY Go to Episode S2-23 Vietnam Cooking Classes Go to Episode S2-03 Family Friendly Vietnam Go to Episode S2-18 Masterminding your trip Go to Episode S2-02 Shopping Vietnam Go to Episode S2-14 Social Enterprise Travel Go to Episode S2-06 Top 5 Photography locations Go to Episode S3-25 One teenagers holiday views Go to Episode S3-20 Learn "special dietary needs" Go to Episode S3-16 Things NOT always in a tour Go to Episode S3-24 Phu Quoc A scenic island paradise Go to Episode S3-19 Learn "Greetings" Go to Episode S3-15 Travel time in Vietnam P2 Go to Episode S3-22 Phong Nha Caves in depth Go to Episode S3-18 Emerging comedy in Saigon Go to Episode S3-14 Travel Opening up P1 Go to Episode S3-21 Learn "shopping words" Go to Episode S3-17 Mui Ne Beach bliss experiences Go to Episode S3-11 Saigons Covid Recovery Outlook Go to Episode S4-22 Trekking in Sapa A wide lens view Go to Episode S4-16 Mystical Ninh Binh Go to Episode S4-11 Revisiting Vietnam Go to Episode S4-21 Beyond the Phong Nha caves Go to Episode S4-15 Travelling as a solo woman Go to Episode S4-09 Hanoi A Foodies Paradise P1 Go to Episode S4-18 Luxury Brand Travel Experiences Go to Episode S4-14 Con Dao Islands Go to Episode S4-08 Travel Addict podswap Go to Episode S4-17 Vietnam Traveller Insights 2022 Go to Episode S4-13 Citizen 44 podswap Go to Episode S4-05 Nha Trang 10 best things Go to Episode S5-E27 – Discovering Catholic treasures in Vietnam Go to Episode S5-E18 Hanoi Below the Surface Go to Episode S5-E13 Out and About in Nha Trang Go to Episode S5-E24 Ha Giang Insider tips for an Unforgettable Adventure Go to Episode S5-E17 Motorbike Riding in Vietnam tips and adventures Go to Episode S5-E12 Out and About in Mui Ne - Laying bare the winds of change Go to Episode S5-E22 10 things travellers may not know about Vietnam Go to Episode S5-E16 Smart phone apps and tech tip Go to Episode S5-E11 Out and About in Ho Tram Vietnam Go to Episode S5-E21 Vietnam Tet Holiday - Preparation and Tips for Tourists Go to Episode S5-E14 Phong Nha - The family fun destination Go to Episode S5-E10 Out and About in Saigon - the Uncut Edition Go to Episode

What About Vietnam 's Kerry Newsome specialises in informing first-time travelers to Vietnam through podcasts and transcripts. What About Vietnam is your voice of experience. Phone: AUS +614 416 677 793 Trip planning & Design Services What About Vietnam Travel Services _ Home Page share Trip planning Trip planning What About Vietnam Travel Services _ Home Page share 1/15 with Kerry Newsome Request a Quote Request an eMeet Trip planning and itinerary design services provided by What About Vietnam Travel Expert - Kerry Newsome The best travel plans need to be well thought out and NOT one size fits all. If you are starting to feel a bit overwhelmed and confused by so many websites and tours out there, stop here and consider designing your own tour with my help. At What About Vietnam we recognize the importance of trip planning and design. You will have heard from Kerry many times during her shows, talking about managing expectations, planning and being clear about what is most important about your trip to Vietnam. How to arrange a trip plan, click below Request a Trip Plan - Click here To that end, we want to become your specialist in this area. If you are being overwhelmed with the internet flooded with pages and pages of Tour Operators, Tour Companies, Tourism Boards, Facebook post and Travel groups, you may like to hand the job of designing your trip over to us and let us do the work of designing the best trip according to your interests, budget and objective. Your trip planning and itinerary design - isn't one out of the brochure, it's your OWN by design Trip planning and itinerary design for travel to Vietnam requires careful consideration of several factors to ensure an enjoyable and memorable trip. We ask a lot of questions. The process should be tailored and include key elements such as:- Research - Research is crucial when planning a trip to Vietnam. This includes researching the best time to visit, visas and entry requirements, cultural customs and norms, as well as top attractions, cities, and activities. This information will help determine the itinerary and ensure that the trip is planned efficiently and effectively. Budgeting - Budgeting is a key consideration when planning a trip to Vietnam. It is important to determine how much money will be available for travel expenses and allocate it appropriately for accommodation, transportation, food, and activities. This will help ensure that the trip is both affordable and enjoyable. Itinerary Design - Once the research and budgeting have been completed, the itinerary design can begin. This should take into account the traveler's interests, “preferred pace” of travel, travel fitness and budget. The itinerary should include a balance of sightseeing, cultural experiences, and relaxation, and should allow for some flexibility to make adjustments if needed. Accommodation - Accommodation should be a priority in the itinerary design. This includes choosing the right type of accommodation, such as hotels, guesthouses, or homestays, and determining the best location based on the traveler's preferences and budget. Do you prefer budget, boutique or do you want to stick to your favourite brands at every possible point? Transportation - Transportation is another key factor in itinerary design. This includes choosing the right mode of transportation, such as flights, trains, or buses, and determining the best route to take to get from one location to another. A well-planned transportation itinerary will help make the trip more efficient and save time, duress on your body and senses, and money. Sometimes spending a few dollars more for a speedy flight in comfort can make all the difference at the other end. Food and Dining - Food and dining should also be considered in the itinerary design. Vietnam is known for its delicious and diverse cuisine, and the traveler should make an effort to try as many local dishes as possible. We plan to make it our mission through locals and using favourites of our guests on the Podcast to make sure you have plenty of food experiences to excite any interested palate. Culture and Activities - Culture and activities should be a priority in the itinerary design, as they provide an opportunity to immerse oneself in the local culture and experience the local way of life. This can include visiting local markets, temples, and historical sites, as well as participating in local festivals and events. In conclusion , In the end the decision is yours. Ultimately we want you to have a great trip that is value money. If we don't provide that, then you have a design to shop around other vendors.

What About Vietnam 's Kerry Newsome specialises in informing first-time travelers to Vietnam through podcasts and transcripts. What About Vietnam is your voice of experience. Phone: AUS +614 416 677 793 slide 1 slide 2 slide 9 slide 1 1/9 Travel Services Request Start the discovery process with a trip plan and design? How to arrange a trip plan, click below What About Vietnam Travel Services can be tailored to your needs. 1. Are you looking for a Trip plan and quotation. Great. You are in the right place. Complete the form here and place your order. 2. Are you looking for Travel Companion Services? We suggest you start the discovery process from day 1- And that begins with an interview with our Director of TCS – Kelley McCarthy – Why not set one up today. If you already know this is the kind of service you have been looking for then complete the form here and place your order and Kelley will be in touch with you. What About Vietnam Travel Services is devoting this kind of service as a key deliverable of its Podcast and Travel business, and as a service to encourage tourism in Vietnam. Inquiry and quote request Trip planning and itinerary design for travel to Vietnam requires careful consideration of several key elements, including research, budgeting, itinerary design, accommodation, transportation, food and dining, and culture and activities. By prioritizing these factors, travellers can ensure that they have a memorable and enjoyable trip to Vietnam. At What About Vietnam we place a high priority on designing the best type of tour to suit your preferences, safety and budget. Please email for more information whataboutvietnam@gmail.com Please complete the form and submit along with the Paypal fee so we can get your plan in motion. What does the Trip plan include: A thoughtfully and carefully curated comprehensive itinerary that encompasses all aspects of your trip, fully quoted and inclusive of all travel services such as airport transfers, accomodation and flights. To prepare a comprehensive Trip Plan we charge a fee of $150 USD . Should the itinerary be accepted and the tour booked with What About Vietnam, the $150 USD is deducted from the whole trip cost. PLEASE NOTE WE ARE NOT ABLE TO PROVIDE ANY NURSING, WHEELCHAIR TRAVEL, DRESSING, BATHING OR MEDICATI ON AS YOUR COMPANION TRAVELLER. If any of these needs are currently required to maintain your optimum health we are not qualified to provide the travel companion service for you. First Name Last Name Phone Email Gender Date of Birth Intended travel date Describe your preferred level of travel Places of interest and activities Special dietary needs Have you ever travelled to Vietnam or Asia Describe level of fitness What are you looking for from your travel companion? Select an option Request for a comprehensive Trip Plan (see fee below) Request for a Travel Companion (no fee) To prepare a comprehensive Trip Plan we charge a fee of $150 USD . Should the itinerary be accepted and the tour booked with What About Vietnam, the $150 USD is deducted from the whole trip cost. FINAL FACT: The fee is required upfront when requesting the Travel Plan Itinerary and is non-refundable whether you proceed or not with the final plan. We look forward to creating your trip plan. Submit form

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A Travel Podcast featuring previous travelers to Vietnam as they share their insights with Podcast host Kerry Newsome. Find out about Vietnam from the people who have actually been there. WHAT ABOUT VIETNAM with Kerry Newsome Photo Credit - Gerard Gerhard Series 2 Series 1 Latest Episode S1 E11 Last Words for 2025 00:00 / 32:38 Series 3 Series 4 Xin Chao and Welcome to the No 1 Vietnam Travellers Podcast website Trip Planning Must Do adventure Sustainable/wellbeing special interest cultural foodie SPECIAL TRAVEL OFFERS Visa Entry Policy Guide 2022 SIGN UP for your FREE fortnightly WAV - Bulletin Receive Kerry's personal quick and easy read about all travel-related things in Vietnam. Including special offers, Covid updates, new episodes coming up, and just things to keep you in the loop. Yes. Sign me up Subscribe to What About Vietnam through your favourite channel Welcome to WhatAboutVietnam.com (WAV) as we like to call it! The place where you get to discover amazing traveller experiences in Vietnam Listen - to the "What About Vietnam" - Traveller Insights Podcast here or on your favourite channel. Search - by name of the episode, destination or experience to find the best Podcast, Blog, Transcript or Video to match your enquiry. Read - The Travel Podcast Transcripts and blogs about many different experiences you can enjoy in Vietnam. Save as a PDF or download to print. Watch - Our Trailer Videos on our NEW- YOUTUBE channel Reach out - Send us an email and let us know how we can help you with your travel enquiry. Let me and my guests be your personal guides, mentors, tutors, and fun experts. We all have a story to tell about traveling about, living there or working in Vietnam. Each episode has something for everyone. I hope you will come to know, love, and share this page and my podcast with others to help them discover the true beauty and wonder that is Vietnam. Kerry Newsome Hi, my name is Kerry Newsome and I am your host on the What About Vietnam Podcast. If you have a subject, destination or experience you would like to know more about, why not drop me a quick message here and I will do my utmost to get you the information you have requested. Thank you and I hope you enjoy the next show. Kerry What About Vietnam is proud to be a member of Auscham Vietnam - Australian Chamber of Commerce And many other channels Submit Thanks for submitting! Find out about sponsorship & advertising opportunities Become a guest on our podcasts Reach out to to Kerry, our podcast host

What About Vietnam – S5-E8 Empowering the Traveller in the fight against Human Trafficking in Vietnam Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Now, while I love telling travel stories and introducing interesting guests on the show, occasionally I get the opportunity to delve a little deeper into Vietnam and maybe bring your awareness to a more human interest story of Vietnam. Today we're going to find out how some Vietnamese actually experience serious hardship and poverty and become more vulnerable to human trafficking. And while we are travelers, we may see things that we don't quite understand, or maybe we see them and think, oh, that doesn't look quite right, and we experience the poverty, we see it, we don't always know what to do about it. Do we give the beggar money or food? Do we report it? Who to? What impact can we really make to make a difference? My guest today is the lovely Kim Miller, and she's going to give us firsthand knowledge of Vietnam's struggle with human trafficking. I think you're going to be blown away when you hear the work that she's doing with a company called Blue Dragon, which is really out there trying to eradicate human trafficking. Plus, Kim herself needs our help to fulfill her dream. I'd like you to welcome Kim to the program as we talk some serious stuff, but some interesting stuff that I think is going to make your trip to Vietnam so much more richer, if that's the word. And I think it's going to give you a bit of a background and context to some of the things you're seeing. So let's welcome Kim to the program. Kim, welcome to What About Vietnam? Kim Miller: Thank you so much, Kerry. I've listened to so many of your episodes and as somebody who's lived and worked in Vietnam, I still find them incredibly interesting in learning about new places that I can visit and travel to and about the people and the culture. So I'm really excited to be talking to you today. Kerry Newsome: Oh, that's good to know. It's always nice to talk to people who listen to my podcast. That always warms my heart. Kim, look, you're an Australian girl. I know that you share your time between Australia and Vietnam. Tell us, you know, how you got interested in Vietnam in the first place. Like, what is it about Vietnam that captured your interest as a traveller? Kim Miller: I actually came to Vietnam to work before I'd ever travelled in Vietnam, which I think is fairly rare, a little bit different to how most people end up in Vietnam. I learned about Blue Dragon Children's Foundation where I work before I'd ever travelled to Vietnam. So I'd heard about it from friends, from people who'd worked and lived in Vietnam, and I'd always been intrigued. I'd always wanted to travel to Southeast Asia. But I hadn't actually travelled very much in my life. And so when I first came to Vietnam to work for Blue Dragon, it was very new to me. I was experiencing it all for the very first time. Kerry Newsome: That would have been quite pioneering, I would have thought. I mean, I know I first visited back in 2007. And, you know, people then thought, gosh, you know, that was brave. That was crazy, you know, going to Vietnam. Because as you and I would know, Vietnam has a kind of a history with us that we consider more in the view of the Vietnam War rather than it being a country. Would you say that's true? Kim Miller: Yeah, and I guess my experience of Vietnam really came from the people I'd known who were working there. In some ways, I'd expected to come to a country that was far less developed than what I found it to be. I came across for the first time in 2012 and moved across full-time in 2014. And so I guess, yeah, my image of what Hanoi in particular might look like was a lot less developed than what I found when I arrived. Kerry Newsome: Okay, so did you get a chance, and during your roles over there, did you get a chance to do some exploring in Vietnam? Kim Miller: I have. I definitely haven't done as much as I'd like to, and there is so much more to see. I've mostly seen towards the north, a little bit in the center, and I have been down to Saigon, down to Ho Chi Minh City for work and had a little bit of a chance to explore down on the Mekong Delta. I've been up to Sa Pa and, of course, Ha Long Bay, been down to Nha Trang and Dalat, and around some of the more countryside places, the rural parts near Hanoi, like Mai Chau is one of my absolute favourite places to go to get away from the city. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, it's a very interesting place too, isn't it? I went there with a friend who had sent me there on a trajectory to find and discover their textiles and some of the materials and things that they weave, some of their crafts and things like that. So, besides it being beautiful countryside, it was extremely interesting from that perspective. Kim Miller: Really interesting. Yeah, it was the first time that I'd seen the weaving happening and their five-coloured sticky rice was definitely a drawcard for me. I've been back a couple of times now in particular to try the sticky rice and the lake down the bottom of my toe as well. Mammoth, isn't it? Yeah, it is. I've done quite a bit of swimming there, much to the surprise, I guess, of the people, the homestay where I was staying. They hadn't seen people swim in that lake before, but I've spent a lot of time in that lake as well. I absolutely love it down there, Macho. Kerry Newsome: It's really come a long way too. Recently, I know that I think a fishing restaurant has been built there. It was being built at the time I was there, but it actually sits on top of a fishing farm. in the lake. Because you know the lake is huge to navigate, so they do a lot of fish farming. And this restaurant, you can't get any fresher fish. It's literally on the lake, on the farm. Kim Miller: Straight from the lake, delicious. That sounds amazing. Kerry Newsome: I know what I'll be trying the next time I'm there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. So, you know, like good segue into talk about food in Vietnam. Do you have any favorites? Like what would you suggest to travelers listening to the program and thinking about food? Kim Miller: Oh, look, I have so many favorites. And I'm not going to pronounce this correctly. I get in trouble for my friends and colleagues every time. Thank you. It's called Pho Chien Phong and it's kind of, it's only found in Hanoi, in one particular street in Hanoi. I kind of call it like the fast food of Vietnam. And it's basically fried squares of rice paper that bubble up like little pillows. And it's in this really interesting gravy with beef and tomato and onion. And it's quite rare in terms of the sort of food that I generally eat in Vietnam, which is so fresh and delicious. It's just like a real comfort food, especially great for in winter. So yeah, that's one of my favorites. And of course, you know, Bun Cha, Sunday morning chicken soup for Gar is, you know, to die for. And I'm very partial to a coconut coffee, a cafe soda as well. Kerry Newsome: Gosh; You're really my best friend now. That is my first go-to when I get to Vietnam. I just adore it. Absolutely. Kim Miller: Yeah, I made it my mission to try a few different places each time I go to try somewhere different to see if I can find a favorite, but I keep going back to one or two standards every time. Kerry Newsome: And if I was to ask you, you know, do you have any like favorite things you love to do? You know, my listeners are always asking for local advice and advice from travelers who've maybe just discovered a bit of a gem that's not on the on the map yet or you know is not sort of drowned out with tourists and that like do you have a a favorite thing you love doing or a place that you love going to that we could share with you know a hundred thousand or so listeners just to keep it between us you know it's just to keep my secret places yeah yeah i think. Kim Miller: Ho Dong Do, there's a little lake Ho Dong Do, it's only about 90 minutes out of Hanoi and so it's kind of my favorite place to be able to get on the motorbike, just drive out of the city and I feel myself relaxing the further away I get and you know the further into the rice paddies you get and then you arrive at this beautiful lake, that's yeah, that's kind of my favorite just a weekend escape and I think I think people who kind of live in Hanoi tend to know it's there and head there, but I don't know of any tourists who've been there. I think because it might be a little bit challenging to get to if you didn't have your own transport maybe, but it's definitely one of my favorites. And how do you spell it? So it's H-O for lake, D-O-N, and then I think it's just D-O. Kerry Newsome: Ah, right. Okay. Good to know. Good to know. Because Hanoi is one of those places where, you know, trying to find somewhere just, you know, two or three hours away from Hanoi is a little bit challenging. I mean, you've got two hours now on the highway to Halong Bay. You're still three or four hours to Ninh Binh. I mean, I'm going to check out Yen Bai. I think it's called. It's about three and a bit hours out of Hanoi on my next trip. So, I'm always keen to find cute places or little escapes from Hanoi for people like that so that they know that, you know, that's kind of the time allotment because sometimes you can chew up a lot of time getting around Vietnam because you know, it's got some miles and not always the best roads. So, you know, finding the right transport is often challenging and you know, people are wanting to figure out, well, how many days have I got and how do I spread them about? And, you know, Hanoi is a really interesting city and very different, but, you know, maybe two or three days, four days, you're done and you want to do something, you know, sideline. So that sounds very, very interesting. I'll have to put some links, I think, to that in the show notes. Now Kim, I want to probably talk to you more now about Vietnam and the struggles that you and I have, you've certainly educated me more so recently in Vietnam. in regard to the poverty cycle and certainly where that leaves people vulnerable to human trafficking. So maybe for everyone, just to give us some context, maybe throw us some numbers. Can you give us some rough idea? I mean, the population of Vietnam is coming up to around about 100 million. they're saying now. And I've, you know, just in researching to do this show with you, you know, I'm, I'm hearing that there's over, over a million, uh, that are considered below the poverty line. I I'm, I'm thinking that's fairly short of the real number, but maybe give us some numbers around just, you know, what, how big the problem is, I guess. Kim Miller: I think, It's kind of telling that, so Blue Dragon has rescued just under 1,500 victims of human trafficking, people who've been tricked, lied to, and trafficked. And that, you know, is absolutely the tip of the iceberg. We've rescued people from every single province in Vietnam. And so I think it kind of shows just how widespread that problem is. We're not even just rescuing people from remote or rural areas, we are rescuing people from the cities and trying to protect people from the cities as well. And so I think whenever people ask for numbers about the number of people who are trafficked globally or in Vietnam and Really, the only number we can give you with absolute certainty is the number of people that we have rescued because there are so many people who are yet to be rescued or who we may never learn about or who may never return home safely. And so, yeah, I think those most telling numbers is just the number of people that we've rescued and the fact that it's from every single province around Vietnam. Kerry Newsome: And it's interesting that you mention about every province and city because I was to understand the little bit I do know that there was some concentration up in the north and certainly in the ethnic minority areas and where we find Vietnam's borders very close to China. Is that fair to say? Kim Miller: So that absolutely would have been the case before COVID. That was definitely true. Since COVID though, we've seen a very different scene when it comes to human trafficking. and people being tricked and trafficked from all over Vietnam. And they're being trafficked into different places as well. So at the moment, some of our most common rescues and our most challenging rescues are actually people who are being trafficked into, it was firstly Cambodia, and now also Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, and they're being trafficked into forced scam compounds where they're being tricked into thinking perhaps they're going for a job, they're applying for a job where they'll be working in an office. Perhaps they think they're just going on a date with a boy that they've met. Maybe they think they're going for a job in a restaurant or a telephone shop, a phone shop in one of the cities. But they're being tricked and trafficked into these other countries where they're being forced to work as slaves. And so that where they're coming from now isn't just in those northern border regions. Although when we first started doing this work, we definitely did find that there were many locations along northern Vietnam where human trafficking was more prevalent than in other areas. Kerry Newsome: It's such a silent, killer and so hard to detect. I know I got involved with another charity called the Children's Education Foundation, and that's around sponsorship of girls' education. And getting close to these girls that I sponsored over the years and working with an interpreter, I was able to kind of get a feel for just how they connect and, you know, they connect like us. They use, you know, social media and things like that. And just how scarily easy it was for these girls to be impressed with connections and reach outs from people offering them jobs. And I would try to explain to them that they know nothing about those people. Those people have got no credentials. They need to research and be very cautious. But in their kind of their beautiful naivety and ability to believe everybody's kind of good and would do the right thing by them, they can so easily be misguided or caught up in situations that are just not what they appear to be. Has that been your experience too? Kim Miller: Absolutely, yeah. People who are looking for a better life, they're looking for a way to be able to care for their family. You know, we had one young mum who is living in Hazang. She has four children. And she was already living in absolute poverty when her husband had passed away. And so she was left with four young children too who were, you know, a baby and a toddler. And she had been talking to somebody on Zalo, a social communication app in Vietnam that's very popular. And that person had been talking to her about a job that she could go to if she could leave her children in the village with other people to care for them. She could go for this job where she would earn good money She could send money back to her children and she would be able to earn enough money to come back to her family. And she was really lucky. We were running part of our anti-trafficking strategies that we're developing anti-trafficking boards, which is groups of people who become experts in communities to run workshops to help people understand the tricks that the traffickers use. And just like what you were saying, ways that they can keep themselves safe, red flags that they can look out for. And in this workshop that she just happened to go to, she realized that the messages that she'd been getting were basically word for word what the traffickers had been using to trick people into going to Cambodia to work in these scam centers. And so it was just she was looking for a way to feed her children, you know, to be able to help those kids survive. And we have no doubt, had she gone, you know, she would never have seen those children again. But because she went, the really great thing, because she went to that workshop, we now know she exists. And so we were able to support her. Not only is she now safe from human trafficking because she understood the dangers of it and that, you know, that what was being offered to her as being too good to be true actually was too good to be true. But we were able to buy her a very pregnant cow, you know, healthy with veterinary teeth, Very valuable. Yeah, help her learn how to care for the cow. And then to have that income, to be able to have an ongoing income without needing to leave her children and leave her community. We're also helping to pay school fees for her children, as well as helping her with that emergency money to begin with. So it's being able to help people who are looking for a way to have a better life, who might take a risk. because they can't see a way of their life improving without taking that risk. It's really important to be able to help them stay in their community and not to have to leave and not to have to take those risks. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and it's an interesting analysis to look at the traffickers as well as those trafficked. And I'm a follower of your founder, Michael, And just some of the blogs that he's written and the stories he's told about just how desperate the traffickers are, as well as the trafficked. You know, the hype in movies and things like that about it being, you know, all big business and flamboyant and, you know, like, it's not always the story. And as you say, some of these people that are suggesting that, you know, there's work to be obtained in Myanmar or there's work to be obtained in China. You know, it's better in Cambodia. These people are actually often known to these people that get trafficked. So, you know, it's scary that, you know, you can be that close to these people and the traffickers are thinking that they're going to make some extra dollars in a much easier fashion, without any concept of the slavery or the danger that they are actually putting these people through. I mean, some are, but some are fairly innocent, from what I've heard, that they don't actually know what concept they're selling, and when it turns out to go bad, it must be dreadful. Kim Miller: Absolutely, yeah, and that was one of the things like when we started, you know, we knew at Blue Dragon that we needed, doing the rescues is fine. We have social workers, psychologists, lawyers, we have a team of people that can really care for survivors when they come home and help them to be able to rebuild their lives. But we can't change what's happened to them. And so we needed to find a way to be able to end human trafficking and to be able to keep people safe in the first place. And that was one of the things that we realized is that we knew a lot about the victims of human trafficking, but we needed to know who the traffickers were. And we did. We found that the profile of a human trafficker in Vietnam is very similar to the profile of a victim. living in absolute poverty, low education levels, people from ethnic minority communities are often overrepresented. And again, it's finding ways, it's where these anti-trafficking workshops and the anti-trafficking boards that have been set up, their goal also is to be able to stop people from being vulnerable to poverty, because then we're going to have less people also not only taking a risk that ends up with them being trafficked, but it also stops people from becoming traffickers, from doing something that maybe they might not ordinarily do, but to be able to improve their own lives as well. It's such an important thing. It's such an important thing that we're looking at both sides of it. Kerry Newsome: I mean, education is just so invaluable in this situation, isn't it? For these people to get access to it, to acknowledge that this kind of deception is out there and to be mindful, not to have that open heart, which many of the Vietnamese have, to new things and opening up their homes to people. As travelers in particular, you find yourself at the generosity of many people that have very little and they give so much. And to then discover that they're being exploited in this way, to me, it just kills me. You've told us that you do share your time between here and Vietnam. So tell us what you yourself do in Vietnam and then we'll lead into that great swim that you've got coming up. Kim Miller: Yeah, look, I'm in a really unique role at Blue Dragon. I often say I think I've got the best job in the organisation. My role is that I started in Vietnam at Blue Dragon as the school's coordinator. So effectively, I work with schools and students and teachers and supporters of Blue Dragon all around the world, and I help them understand the issues, the cycle of poverty, the ongoing cycle, human trafficking, modern slavery, child slavery, and helping them understand the ways that people become vulnerable and the things that we can do to help them lift out of that poverty and be less at risk of human trafficking. I also work with our supporters and our business supporters and our friends in Australia. And so my role is kind of that dual role of working with people all around the world of school age and students, but also working with our donors and supporters here in Australia. Kerry Newsome: In getting back to where I started in the program in talking about travelers, and I'm one of them, so when I'm traveling to Vietnam, I do come across situations where I think, oh, I don't know, that just doesn't look right, or I just get, you know, my antennas go up and I just feel like that person is being forced to do something against their will, or I don't know. It's very hard to gauge, as we've just said, that deception-wise, there's some amazing tricks in their trade on how they can represent themselves. But if you are a traveler, we talked about before we recorded this show about an opportunity for how travelers can make a difference? What are some of the things that we can do to help this process or aid this process other than, you know, straight donations? And we get to that and we're certainly going to get to where we can help you. But just as we're out and about, you know, is there anything that we can do or we should take a note of? Kim Miller: Yeah, absolutely. There was one day I was coming back from a school that I'd been speaking at in Hanoi and it was in between the two, there were two main lockdowns in COVID in Vietnam. And it was in between those two lockdowns. Kids had been able to go back to school for a little while. And I was riding back to the Blue Dragon Center. It was about 11 o'clock in the morning, a super hot day. And sitting out from the curb, about a meter and a half from the edge of the road, was a little girl sitting, holding a basket, as you often see people living in poverty do in Hanoi to earn money. And in that basket, she was selling things like toothpicks and chewing gum and tissues. And she positioned herself kind of in the middle of the road so that hundreds and hundreds of motorbikes had to ride around her. And as people walked past or as they rode past, they were often dropping some money, generally only one or two thousand dong, five thousand dong in her basket. And I stopped, she was a little girl who I had seen before, and we were very close to the Blue Dragon Center at the time. I could actually see the Blue Dragon Center from where we were. And I stopped to sort of find out what she was doing. And she very proudly pulled out a wad of money from her pocket. And, you know, in real terms, it might've been $5. It might've been enough money to buy her lunch and to buy her a drink that day. Um, and I sort of, I said, okay, all right, come on, let's, let's go to blue dragon. It was nearly lunchtime. So I said, let's, let's go to blue dragon and we'll have some lunch. And she said she couldn't go because she had had problems with her teeth. And she'd been told that day by her mom that she wasn't allowed to go to blue dragon and she wasn't allowed to go to school because she really needed to go to the hospital to get her teeth fixed. I kind of realized that she wasn't going to go with me at that time, so I went and bought us both a bottle of water and I sat down on the side of the road with her, which meant that people stopped giving her money. And in doing that, she realized, okay, I may as well go with Kim to Blue Dragon because nobody's going to give me money now anyway. And of course, when we got to Blue Dragon, I was able to talk to the social workers who were able to go to her mom, find her mom, take her to the hospital, you know, get her mouth fixed to be able to pay for her education, to make sure that they had somewhere safe to live. And it just really, you know, it really brought home to me in a really visceral way that all of those people who gave her that little bit of money on their way past, It was very generous and kind of them, but what it did was maybe help her survive with a bottle of water and some food for that day, but it didn't help improve her life. It didn't help her go to school to be able to get out of the cycle of poverty or to have somewhere safe to sleep that night. And one of the things that we can do as travelers that I wish more people knew about, and we can do this anywhere in the world, is take a pin, pop a pin, open up your phone, go to Google Maps, put out a pin, and remember where you are. Make a few little notes for yourself about what the child's wearing, where they are, if you can find a street sign that's even better, and then go to Google and find out who is a charity or an organization, a children's charity, that's working with children and homeless children in this area. Simply, if anybody had gone straight to Google on that day and they'd messaged homeless child Hanoi, Blue Dragon would have been the first thing that came up. By sending a message to us just through our social media, which again would have come up very easily, would have been one of the first things that come up. We could have had a social worker out to see her within five or ten minutes of her being there. We have a team of, we call them outreach workers. They're basically social workers who are out on the streets every day and through the night. to look for street kids, to look for vulnerable children, and to be able to help them, not just in that moment, but over the long term. And it's something that I know that we can do anywhere in the world, is just, you know, open up your phone, do a Google search, send a pin to show, you know, people, the social workers or the organization where the child is, and you'll be able to find somebody who'll be able to help them, not just for the moment, but for the long term. Kerry Newsome: And you know, I think that information is invaluable. I mean, I don't know how many times I would have loved to have had that initiative to do something like that. I think for me, getting my head around just the fact that organisations like yours, like Blue Dragon, exists and has the capacity to offer this kind of assistance is just truly amazing and inspiring. And I think for travellers, I think in their hearts, from people that I talk to, I think, you know, they would like to know what they can do if those circumstances you know, coming to their experience of the country. Because basically, you know, no one wants to see that happen, but they're not really sure where to get the support. I mean, even back onto the human trafficking, just I think in earlier years, because I was involved with Vietnam in, you know, kind of the early 2000s, I don't think I thought that Vietnam had strong enough penalties against people that did these kinds of things. But, you know, that's changed dramatically and those penalties have become quite severe now. So, you know, you can get 20 years plus imprisonment for that. So all of that has kind of spurred on, I guess, a greater want and desire for people to become more active and play a more active role. in supporting charities like Blue Dragon in doing what they're doing, because this kind of work is just so important. Let's talk, Kim, now about what your dream is. And I mean, you've already done some great fundraising work for the charity, but you might like to tell everyone about what you've got planned for July. Kim Miller: Yeah, it's a little bit crazy. The thing that I love most about what I'm doing is that anybody can do this in their own form. I'm taking something that I love and that I'm passionate about and I'm using it to do something great, to do something positive in the world. And so I am a swimmer, an ocean swimmer. I've only been able to say that since about December 2020. But yeah, I love ocean swimming and over the last couple of years I've started swimming further and further and I have the opportunity in July this year to attempt to swim across the English Channel from England to France to raise money for Blue Dragons. So I'm raising money for Blue Dragons. anti-trafficking programs. When I talked about those anti-trafficking boards and the sustainable income initiatives, paying for education, we know that to set all of that up in a community costs around $20,000. So I've set a kind of audacious goal of raising $200,000 from my English Channel Swim so that I can help 10 communities have these anti-trafficking programs initiated and keep thousands more people safe from human trafficking? Kerry Newsome: My hat goes off to you. I think it's a fabulous thing that you're doing. And for everyone listening, I'm going to be putting the link in the show notes. So it's like you're one click away, literally, for having the opportunity to be able to support this charity, to support Kim in what she's doing. And, you know, remember her tips about when you are visiting Vietnam and, you know, that pin in the Google map, easy peasy for us to do that kind of thing. We already know of the organization that we can pass that information on to. But certainly if we can get behind Kim to support her in this swim, audacious as that 200,000 is, I'm hoping that my generous listeners will definitely help you in this way and we can do more for Blue Dragon and just to break that poverty cycle and eradicate human trafficking in Vietnam. Kim Miller: I'm just so grateful, you know, to have this opportunity and to be able to talk about Blue Dragon's work. I think whenever I travel somewhere new, I want to know not just about the amazing things I can see as a tourist, but how I can help and what those social issues are underneath the bits that maybe I can't see for myself. And, you know, to have the opportunity for other travelers coming to Vietnam to do that as well. It's such a beautiful country with incredible people. I work with a team of incredible Vietnamese superheroes. And I'm so proud to be able to talk about their work and to let other people coming to Vietnam know what they can do to help keep even more people safe and create that change. So thank you so much for the opportunity. Kerry Newsome: Kim, it's been my pleasure. And as I said, everyone, look out for the link in the show notes, whether you listen to my podcast on your favorite channel, your Spotify, your iTunes, your Google podcast, your Amazons, your whatever. What About Vietnam is there. You can come to the website also at whataboutvietnam.com. You'll also see the summary notes there, which will also have the links. So let's get behind Kim and see what we can do to play our part in eradicating human trafficking in Vietnam. Thanks, Kim.

What About Vietnam – S5- E7 The Rise of Unique Dining Experiences in Vietnam Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to What About Vietnam. So here we are folks, we're in the silly season. We're in December, Christmas not far away and as per usual we're all going a little bit crazy as we're trying to figure out we're going to have a holiday? How are we going to get together with friends and family? And we're thinking about Christmas dinner and food. So, I wanted to finish up the year with a show that would be speaking to, you know, some of the fun things that we can do with food. And in particular, I want to talk to you about where food culture, trends, where the vision of food is kind of heading in Vietnam. Because if you were to think about Vietnam in just the sense of street food, you would be seriously doing it a disservice because it has exploded in the last few years with new kinds of experiences and the flavors, the new chefs, the variety of mixing and matching with food and beverages. And I wanted a guest on the show that could really speak to that with authority. And I'm delighted to have Jovel Chan on the show. I want to tell you a bit about. Jovel comes with a very strong background in this area. In the last three years, She has been in Singapore as a food writer and blogger, consultant, culinary event organiser. But now she's really got her eyes set on Vietnam as she's based in Ho Chi Minh City. And certainly in the area of developing different cuisines and expanding the horizons, I guess, of experiences in restaurants with different chefs. That focus is primarily in Saigon and in Hanoi. In the last three years, she's actually been tracking the ins and outs of the industry, covering trends, you know, like new openings and happenings, and sharing them through her blog, chevellecharm.com. She became the first Vietnam food and beverage consultant for the Singapore tourism board, adding to an already stellar F&B client suite. She recently founded Saigon Social. Now that comes with some really clever and unique experiences. She's got the Saigon Supper Club, things like cocktail cinemas. And she's really into a very creative sense of connecting with people, sharing great food, sharing great beverages as well, you know, with different gins and craft beers and wine, etc. You're really in for a treat in this show. That's all I can say. It's just something that I think is going to really just put that extra spice of insight into the food scene and hopefully get you even more excited about your trip to Vietnam. Before we jump in, I wanted to just say a quick Merry Christmas and Happy New Year . This is actually the last show for the year. I'm taking a short break and I'll be back on your podcast channel early February . It's a break I really need to have. I've got, you know, lots of things I need to do. I've got a family that I want to have some downtime with and just all of those things are going to make it so that when I come back in 24, I'm refreshed and ready to go. And I have a really exciting plan for the shows next year. So I hope you'll stick with the podcast because there's lots of wonderful stuff happening. I hope you are going to have a wonderful Christmas yourselves. I really thank you for your support over the year. I hope you're enjoying the program. Please sing out if there is a subject matter or something in particular that you'd like to talk about. I'm always I'm always ears and I love to get your feedback. Anyway, I'm talking too much, taking up too much time on this. I want to introduce you to Chevelle. Let's welcome her to the program. Jovel Chan : Great to be here. Great to be here. Kerry Newsome : We've got a lot to talk about. So maybe if we can dive in really early and just get your take on where you think Vietnamese cuisine is heading? What can we expect to experience with cuisine in Vietnam in the future? And yeah, just give us a little look through that peephole to see what's ahead. What can we expect to find when we visit Vietnam? I know my travellers are going to want to know where to go, where to eat. Jovel Chan: I definitely believe that we are at just the start of seeing where Vietnam's dining scene can go. In the past few years post-pandemic, we did see a lot of chefs, both from Vietnam and also from overseas, come into Vietnam, notably Saigon and Hanoi, to set up shop and start catering to hungry tourists and also curious locals who are interested to experience differently and both of them are looking for something beyond just street food itself. I foresee with more five-star hotels also entering Vietnam. and a lot more malls that are also opening up in Vietnam, what you start to see is a very diverse dining scene of different kinds of cuisines, but also at the same time a lot more, a lot better quality. I think it's just a lot more refined and it's a lot more, for the lack of a better word, it's a lot better quality, better dining in terms of interiors, in terms of, you know, even the food itself and also down to service and yeah, the entire experience of dining out. Kerry Newsome : Now, I've heard you say, and I'm cheating here, I've heard you describe the food scene in three words. And I'll give you those three words back and you can maybe expand on them for our guests. So, the first one you mentioned was the dining scene is very hungry. So, describe for us what you mean by hungry. Jovel Chan: So I've been writing a monthly new openings guide in Saigon where I cover new restaurants for the past almost two years. And it's very safe to say that there has been no shortage of new restaurants entering the market even during the pandemic. And it's almost double or triple the rate that it was for obvious reasons during the pandemic versus now since. And this month, I just rallied up not just new restaurant openings, but I also started doing pop-ups, chef residencies and chef pop-ups. So what I mean by when they are hungry, it's really, first and foremost, everybody wants to open up a restaurant. There's so much talent that is happening, there's so many things that are happening. And it's not just opening a restaurant, it's just everybody also wants to come here and try to do something, you know, they're popping up, they're collaborating with each other. You've got chefs from abroad that are doing things here, there's always just something happening. And it's always new. So everybody wants a piece of the pie right now. Kerry Newsome: And that's what I mean by that's really interesting. And I can kind of see that myself, even between visits. I only, you know, like I visit three times a year at least. And even in that three, four months away, I come back and there's something new. There's that place that's just opened up around the corner where it wasn't there when I was there last trip. It's quite amazing. And as you say, it's in the decor, you know, it's in the actual you know, layout and design, the way the tables are set. I love the creativity that is also coming about, which is absolutely fabulous. And then, as you say, the chefs, the new chefs, homegrown chefs, too, that are coming through. So, it's really exciting. You've got another word that you use to describe, and I'd like you to expand on that one, and that's defiant. I love that word, defiant. Jovel Chan: That's your favourite word, isn't it? Kerry Newsome : Maybe I kind of align myself to that. Jovel Chan: So, yeah, so rightfully so, like what I mentioned, the industries also, the chefs themselves are very defiant. So, you know, what we see as creativity to them is kind of like, you know, they're trying to take back something, right? So, I think a lot of them, they don't want to be defined by Vietnamese cuisine. Ironically, but they don't want whatever people think about them to just be limited to banh mi and pho. Because to so many of these homegrown chefs, Vietnamese cuisine and ingredients are able to compete with the likes of cuisine in Japan, of ingredients in Japan, where people treat Japanese cuisine as a premium cuisine. So to many of them, you can hear them say, you know, the number of hours that we take to make pho and what goes behind making a simple bowl of pho like this is the same as making a bowl of ramen, yet nobody is giving us the same credit or willing to pay what people pay for ramen in Japan. So there is this defiance and this is fueling a lot of chefs behind these finer dining kitchens to showcase and storytell about Vietnamese cuisine. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, and I think it's we do need to be careful about stereotyping Vietnamese food. I mean, I even get asked, you know, like, what happens if when I go to Vietnam, I don't like Vietnamese food? And it's like, well, there's, it's a multicultural city that you're visiting. So, you can get any cuisine in the world from pizza to you know, to Greek, to Italian, to whatever. So, you know, don't think of Vietnamese, as you say, just limited to what you know at this point. You know, keep an open mind, coming to the country and, you know, be open to try these new restaurants with these different fusions of flavors and just experiment with the new dining scene. I think that's what's key for people is to experiment. Because you talk about, you know, in your third word, which is nascent, you know, I mean, that deserves definite explanation. Jovel Chan: So Vietnam's dining scene really, really I would say picked up in the last number of years. This isn't to say that there weren't restaurants before, of course there were restaurants before, but dining as a culture in Vietnam with more than just maybe a burger joint or you know the Park Hyatt Saigon and and the ubiquity of it now, and the price that it's now accessible at. I was just writing an article yesterday where 10 to 15 restaurants on it were in the range of 300 to 500k. That's less than $20. So you now have these chefs who are coming in and doing such great things and serving up food where people can enjoy at 300, 500k. It's still a lot higher, but it's a lot less. Before you had dining where it was 2 million. Now it's becoming a lot more affordable and it's a lot more accessible, right? And that's what I mean by the dining scene is it has just really started in the past number of years where people are actually dining out and there is a dining out culture. where people are able to start going out maybe even twice a month and that's something that's within their means. But this only really started in the past two years or three years or so after the pandemic fueled by the likes of the Michelin. So that's what I mean by it's really, really nice and everything is so new and yeah, so much room for opportunity. It's a really exciting time to see where everything goes. Kerry Newsome: Yes. And so, you know, if you are a foodie and you're looking at, you know, your time in Vietnam and best places to go. Now we're talking about dining scenes that are primarily focused in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City, aren't we? Which would you say would be the one, if you were a real foodie, to focus on? It's a tough one. Oh my gosh. Jovel Chan: I can't say this in public. Kerry Newsome : I can't say this in public. It's a hard one, I know. I really know it. But people say, oh, if we're into food, should we go, should we spend more time in Ho Chi Minh City or should we spend more time in Hanoi? And I find it hard to answer that question myself. You know, and while I can say to them that, you know, the cuisine in the North traditionally is very different to the South. You know, those, even those flavors have started to, you know, meld a little bit because, you know, people that are opening up restaurants in the North are opening the same ones in the South and, you know, vice versa. So, there isn't quite that division in the new and upcoming, certainly in traditional, there probably is more definition. But yeah, like, what do I say? Help me out! Jovel Chan: I definitely enjoy, you know, food from all the cities, but Hanoi, eating on the streets, but in Saigon, dining out. And if it were up to me and I had five days, I would spend perhaps a day or two in Hanoi and then come down to Saigon and contrast it, yet see those similarities between what you see from, you know, the traditional street food freight, street food favorites up in the north and then come back down with the understanding and the grasp of what it is to Saigon and check out some of the bars and restaurants and what people are doing here. A lot of what I see in Saigon, even on the street food, is that there's a lot of them that are also adjusting to cater to the younger people here, to the experts here. So some of the banh mi here, you see a lot more banh mi kebab here, you see a lot more innovation even on the street food. So I think heading to the north, get your fix, come down here and see how that's kind of evolving and moving a little bit. For a foodie, I think that's definitely like, you know, you can run the gamut from everything that's traditional and see how that moves and changes with Vietnam's growth. Kerry Newsome: That's a really good answer. I'm going to use that one . No, it's a really good way to explain it because I think there's some novelty factors still very present with the new traveler to Vietnam and sometimes, you know, the new traveler to Southeast Asia to experience street food, to sit on the little red chairs, to sit where, you know, the average local person is having, you know, a meal. with their family and, you know, doing some beers, celebrating with family, that sort of thing. So there's a really nice feeling about that and I think people are very keen to do that. But then, like you, I can go from that, and then I'm really keen to explore the wider circle of other restaurants and other cuisines. And as I said, their decor, they're really wonderful ways that they can use color and art and, you know, their designing is just fantastic. And I really, I like that ambience, you know, that way that a restaurant can make you feel like I really want to hang about here. I want to stay here. You know, I want to have another glass of wine and I want to have, I want to try that other thing on the menu that we didn't start with, you know, that kind of thing. You really want to invest your time and stay. So, in that vein, talk to us about some of the latest trends coming through that you're seeing now, you know, especially since the Michelin guides come out, that sort of thing. So, what are the really big trends coming through? Jovel Chan : Modern Vietnamese cuisine is very, very, very popular. Around Southeast Asia, there's a boom of Southeast Asian cuisine and chefs at the helm. And there's a much larger spotlight that's being placed on Southeast Asian cuisine and chefs themselves. So that's something that's also being reflected here in Vietnam. And when the Michelin came in, we saw three out of four of those one-star restaurants being awarded to modern Vietnamese and Vietnamese restaurants. So the narrative became one of going global by going home. Kerry Newsome: That's interesting. Going global. Yes. Jovel Chan: We saw a lot by going home. We saw that people, there was almost like, there was almost a, it's not favoritism, but a curiosity amongst people in the region as well as overseas who naturally want to come to a country and try what the modern version of that local cuisine was. And when they saw that awards were being awarded for such cuisine over perhaps some of the other cuisines, naturally, right? A lot of the restaurants had that signal to become, OK, I need to be more Vietnamese or I need to be modern Vietnamese. So even a lot of these perhaps traditionally French or modern French restaurants And the likes started playing around with, hey, we now use Vietnamese ingredients. Hey, we start, you know, a little bit, you know, playing on that Vietnamese card a little bit more. So because of that, we did see this year more than, you know, almost 10 new modern Vietnamese restaurants open. And we saw a little move even from those quintessentially Western restaurants into using Vietnamese ingredients. So that's a trend that I did see particularly this year. And I know that we will continue to see this trend for the next number of years because of these global movements. But also at the same time, like I said, Vietnamese people are very prideful in their cuisine. I don't see many Vietnamese chefs coming out and trying to do something else. Kerry Newsome: Perhaps not by choice. That's interesting. Very interesting. So, if we were to start looking at making suggestions to people about special experiences with food, And this is kind of going to be a little segue into what you do as a main theme. But like food, as you say, is becoming an experience to experience that restaurant, to experience that food. I'm seeing a lot more of the combination with you know, fine dining and then alcohol or, you know, different kind of combinations of that pairing where that was never kind of an option before, even just before COVID really. So, you know, can you talk to us about some of the experiences that are now coming through that people are getting excited about? Jovel Chan: So like I said, there are a lot more pop-ups and a lot more events that are happening this year. In the alcohol industry in Vietnam, we also had a gin festival for the first time a couple of years ago. We had a whiskey festival for the first time last year. So we're getting a lot more of this food and drink driven events and pop-ups that people can discover. A lot more restaurants are also going in the way of more fun dining than fine dining. So that's another trend that we see happening a lot more as well, fun dining. Kerry Newsome : And that's what I'm keen to talk about. Jovel Chan: Yeah. Fun dining is injecting an element of social and also it's just injecting elements of, yeah, mostly social and fun into the traditionally more stuffy, you know, concept of dining out. right? And the reason why that's taking off here in Vietnam, I mean, first and foremost, it's very much a global trend. I think the new generation of, you know, travelers, you know, with millennials or even Gen Z, they're going to high-end restaurants and going to your traditional like Ritz Carlton and stuff, it's not something that is really appealing to them anymore, right? Which is why hotels are also changing. Now you have younger and cooler brands, like the edition and the like, right? So the hotel industry moved towards something like that because they could see that these big name brands did not appeal to the next generation anymore. Exactly. But in the same way, fine dining and sitting down on the white cloth and having that table side service just isn't what that same generation is looking for anymore. They want to be at the chef's counter, seeing the fire, interacting with people and having these exclusive experiences that meant a lot more for them. It wasn't about going to these really stuffy brands anymore and saying that they were there. They wanted to be one of the only few people to have this really cool thing that was happening and experiencing that with their friends, perhaps in a private setting. So that's what we're seeing, and that's the fun dining aspect. And that's what also inspired me to create these experiences. Because personally, as somebody who writes about the industry and get invited to many of these events, a lot of these events were very stuffy for me. It was always a steak and wine dinner, and I would have to sit down for four hours and drink wine next to people I didn't know. And I didn't want to do that, right? And I saw that those were the only things that were kind of happening in Ho Chi Minh City and Vietnam. So I said, hey, you know what? There are just better ways to experience food that are more fun. but still achieve the objective of trying and experiencing this new wine and dining out with people. And so I created these experiences just to almost show the industry that there are just other ways to do things. And consumers would much prefer to attend such things. So we started doing that under this brand name called Saigon Supper Club. and bringing people together. And six months later, we've done about 10 dinners and dined at least 200 people. Kerry Newsome: And I think that that's clever. I think that you doing this in a social sense is really key because I think some of the the experience is like, I'll use the restaurant called, I think it's called Noir, the one that you go to in Ho Chi Minh City, where you actually dine in the dark. Like, you're totally in the dark. And funnily enough, a friend of mine went, and I wasn't able to go on the night, but she came back and she said, you know, out of the 10 courses that I ate in the dark, I couldn't even pick the whole 10 correctly. I only picked two out of the 10 dishes. correctly for the experience. And she absolutely loved about it. So, it wasn't just the food that was a great experience and fun. It was the fact that, you know, every other sense in her body was being tested to figure out the texture and the taste and, you know, what the smells were and things like that to try and figure out what that dish was. So, you know, I think that was one of the first examples I had of moving away from traditional stuffy type environments where, you know, you are just having one experience, which is just that set meal, to adding on another layer of the experience to have fun and guessing and things like that. And I see what you're doing with the supper club is where you're getting a mix of, you know, expats, some locals, some tourists, you know, curious people, you know, of all areas, regions who are coming in, who can get to meet other people. Because, you know, travel is about meeting people as well. And I think this is another lovely way to do it. So I'm really keen to hear more about that. Before we just jump into that, I'd like to, because my my listening audience, and I'm talking to you guys out there now, when you do come to Vietnam and you're going to be coming into the two major cities we're talking about, Ho Chi Minh City and Hanoi. And people do, I know you ask, how long should I allow to stay in these places? Now, that's another interesting question to answer because if you do want to start enjoying the food culture and the food experiences, you'd need a few days to do it because you can't kind of gobble it all down in one day or probably even two days. So, you might need to allow, you know, some extra time in Ho Chi Minh City and Hanoi to take advantage of these other aspects of enjoying Vietnamese food and the dining scene as we're seeing and talking about it now. So, if you were to look at… Let's do Hanoi first. If you were to pick a… Say, okay, Jovel, I'm coming into Hanoi, you know, I'm bringing my family, you know, we're really looking for a really nice restaurant, you know, we eat everything. So just, you know, where should we head to? Just give us a few and we'll check and see, you know, if we can get a booking and that sort of thing. So maybe, I went through your website, I found it very hard to pick which street. Jovel Chan : So, I think one of my definitely favorite restaurants is a restaurant called Gia. Kerry Newsome : Yes, I've seen that. That's Hanoi. Yeah. Jovel Chan: Yeah, so Gia is it truly is one like so this year it got one star but I visited them back in 2021 when it first opened and I knew that it was already something that was very very special because it does modern Vietnamese But the way they do it is really by… So in a lot of modern Vietnamese restaurants, a lot of the techniques are very much still very Western techniques. Kerry Newsome : But with a Vietnamese spin. Jovel Chan : A lot of the techniques are recognizably and distinctively Western, but perhaps the flavor, right? They've used Vietnamese herbs and spices. So in some of the modern Vietnamese restaurants, you can still see a beef tartare, which is very much from a French dish, right? But they'll use a Vietnamese quail egg. But in Zia, it is very distinctly Vietnamese. It's almost like imperial Vietnamese cuisine. It feels like that. Nothing really feels like it's from the West. It's just a pure elevation of everything that you've had in Vietnam, done in a way that is very noticeable in Asian and Vietnamese. And I think that's why it's so, so special. Kerry Newsome : Okay, so that's Gia in Hanoi. So what's the second one? Jovel Chan: Yeah, so Los Fuegos is a restaurant and it is a Brazilian steakhouse. I know it's very ironic, but it's from a guy and he is from South America and he spent quite a bit of time in Australia herding cattle. So he really knows his meat. And it's this really quaint little outdoor steakhouse space. And we have a very private area at the back where he has handcrafted this entire barbecue from scratch. So he's made it out of pure love. And it's such a nice little quaint space. And you go in there, and it's gorgeous, gorgeous meat and very, very well done. And more importantly, it has certain ingredients that are not particularly legal in Vietnam. And I don't mean anything, you know, like, too, too, too off the record, but they have like, you know, brain and certain, you know, innards, certain ingredients, you know, for some reason is banned. It's not allowed in Vietnam that he has it, which is a very traditional part of the cuisine. So I really appreciate going there and having that. And number three? Number three has to be, I think the cafes there are really, really, really good. I definitely enjoy the cafes there a lot. So if I had to pick number three, I would choose a cafe. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, but there's so many of them. I mean, I like some of the very well-known, even the Runam. I love the Runam. They are so quaint. Jovel Chan: Oh. Okay, so it has to be a restaurant. Oh, this is tricky then. Okay, I think one of my favourite restaurants in Hanoi then has to be, I think Labrie. Labrie is really good. L-A-B-R-I. Bistro. Kerry Newsome: So it's cafe, bistro, that kind, is it? Jovel Chan : Labri is dining. I've heard really good things about Chapter and Dung, but I've not been yet to be very honest. But I've been to Labri and I thought it was really good. Kerry Newsome: Let's move on to Ho Chi Minh City. Number one for Ho Chi Minh. Jovel Chan : Ho Chi Minh City. Kerry Newsome: This is very, very hot question to ask. When I get asked that question, I actually picked one of the Michelin star restaurants and that's Anan. Anan is, has never let me down, like seriously, anyone I send there just comes away with that many photos about food, even people that never take photos of food before, all of a sudden they're sending me photos of food from Anan, it's outstanding. Jovel Chan: Yeah. And then he just opened up a smaller, not a smaller, but a sister concept in the same building on the third floor. Oh, really? Kerry Newsome : Okay. I must check that out when I'm there. Jovel Chan : Yeah. So it's in the same building. It's got one by far, molecular far. So, you know, another place to stand. Excellent. All right. As for me, If ever the day Anan becomes really full and you need an alternative to send your guests to, my go-to modern Vietnamese restaurant is An's, a place called An's, A-N apostrophe S. N apostrophe S, that's conveniently. I know. So interestingly, An's is helmed by the ex-right hand of Peter, Kerry Newsome : Right, so a breakaway. Jovel Chan: Yeah, it's a breakaway, but the food is very different, I would say. Okay. Very different, but it's still very much modern Vietnamese. Yeah, with a chef counter and everything, it's a lot more quaint and less, I would say, creative and playful with the molecular and the one bite, but in the same vein as Zia Hanoi, it really elevates it from the core of Vietnamese cuisine. So it retains the sanctity of it a lot stronger. Kerry Newsome : The only other restaurant I have been in this sort of league, if for want of a better word, was A by Tung. That 20 degustation, oh my God, that was just outstanding. Jovel Chan : That's a really good one. Kerry Newsome : Oh my God, I was just in awe. I was totally in awe by that restaurant, but it's very expensive, but it's absolutely outstanding. So if you had a third, what would you pick for your third? Jovel Chan : A third restaurant in Saigon. I would say, oof, wish I had more time. I think for some, I always think, the place I always bring a lot of people to is Moi. I bring a lot of people to Moi, Moi Craft Sake, which opened up a year ago. Sorry, is that M-O-R-E? And M-U-A. Kerry Newsome : M-U-A, mm-hmm. Jovel Chan: Yeah, mùa is the word for seasons in Vietnamese. And the chef is a very, very talented chef that opened up the restaurant first in Hội An by the rice fields and everything. It's a very gorgeous restaurant. And then opened up mùa kraft sake, which is a lot more of like You know, it's very casual. It's like a hundred seat space in District 3 and you'll see a lot of people there drinking beer and craft sake. And this craft sake is made from Vietnamese rice and it's Vietnam's first sake. And it's actually really well done. So this chef, he loves Japanese cuisine and spent some time there. And he came back and created a menu that really nicely married Vietnamese and Japanese cuisine together. You've got that izakaya and you've got that street niao culture of eating and drinking in Vietnam. put put them together and pet it with beer, local beers and local craft sake together. So any point of time you go there, it's really busy. Energy and everything is really affordable. It's like, you know, that's in the 300 400 Raj telling you about So I bring everybody there just for like a good dinner so that they can still see what like Vietnamese cuisine can be beyond just street food, but at the same time, try things like they've got the tasting flights for Vietnamese sake. And yeah, it's always a good time. Kerry Newsome : Jovel, is there any particular sort of cuisines influencing other cuisines? Like we've talked about Vietnamese cuisine influencing some Western cultures, but is there some other cultures that are influencing Vietnamese? Like, is there some Japanese influence into Vietnamese? Is there, you know, some Korean influence into Vietnamese food? Is that coming the other way, working the other way back? Jovel Chan: I think Vietnamese cuisine in particular is very influenced from First and foremost, it was a country that was colonized its entire life, right? Vietnam was just continuously colonized by the French, obviously, you can see in the food, by the Chinese. And then you had a lot of people migrate out of Vietnam. They left to Europe and they left all over the world, the US and Australia. So when we come back and see Vietnamese cuisine, which is why I love looking at the dining scene, it's because when you see a lot of these restaurants, and depending on where the chef is from, most of the chefs, at least a year ago, don't spend time in Europe. So his food is Nordic. He calls it Nordic Vietnamese cuisine, right? Peter came from the States, Anan Saigon. You have a lot of these chefs, and depending on where they're coming from, it's influencing Vietnamese cuisine. And it's so interesting to tell people when you look at the cuisine itself, it's almost like a history story. Like you can tell exactly why. If you go to Ngo's restaurant in District 3, he spent time in Indonesia and Australia. So his modern Vietnamese cuisine and what he does is very different to what a lot of other chefs do. But everything, I went to a Vietnamese, a modern Vietnamese restaurant back in Singapore, and the chef went to the US and spent a lot of time working in Mexican restaurants. The food that came out was also very different, but still very uniquely Vietnamese. So when we look at Vietnamese cuisine, especially modern Vietnamese cuisine, those that are helmed by the second generation, like overseas chefs, right? grew up abroad and had to create and adapt to Vietnamese cuisine in that country, that also tastes different to whatever is from Vietnam. So there's a lot of these things. And that's why seeing the dining scene here, as compared to other countries in Southeast Asia or any other country, is very, very much reflective of that massive diaspora and in the 80s when everybody just left. Kerry Newsome: Our show is actually going to be the last show for 2023. So really, really… Oh my goodness. You are a Christmas gift, Jovel, all wrapped up in tasty food ideas. See, that's why I thought this was perfect, absolutely perfect. So, and I have so many travelers coming over for Christmas and New Year and then coming for TET and things like that. So, if we are to talk about, and I want us to explain, help me out here, I want us to explain just how Vietnam celebrates these Western culture events like Christmas because obviously Vietnam is not necessarily, it's a Buddhist predominant country. So, whilst it goes nuts in Saigon with Christmas decorations and Christmas fair, it's kind of still hard to isolate. What does Vietnam do for Christmas? You know, where do I, where do I book, you know, a Christmas dinner or a Christmas lunch or, yeah, can you help me out there? I really need some suggestions for Christmas fair and then New Year's Eve. What, where do people go for that? And then we're going to finish off and talk everything about that Saigon Supper Club because I think that sounds fabulous. I want to join. Jovel Chan: That's all right. Thank you. So let's start talking about Christmas. So Christmas in Vietnam, if you're traveling to Vietnam for Christmas, you've definitely got no shortage of options, especially in the hotels. All the hotels will do some set menu. A lot of them will also do your Christmas brunch. and a number of restaurants here and there, but in terms of a Christmas market or Christmas festival, there isn't something that exists here on a grand scale. You have the neighbourhood Christmas markets, which are a showcase of local artisans and brands that come to the fore, that are usually hosted by individual restaurants, like let's say Luzin, and stuff like that. There are small little pockets of Christmas markets, and I believe if you go along Nguyen Hue Street, you can see a couple of lights and a few baskets doing here and there. But if you're looking for a full-on Christmas outfit like in Europe, then you're definitely not going to see that here. Kerry Newsome: It's more the neon lights. Jovel Chan : But that's not just anywhere. Yeah, it's more the neon lights and, you know, the wiener house, Christmas music that comes on. And of course, it's always a party that follows after. So we saw that with more of the Western holidays here in Vietnam, like, you know, Halloween, let's say, or the like, are big reasons to throw a party. So, you know, head for dinner at perhaps, you know, one of the restaurants or a Christmas brunch to get that festive spirit. And then thereafter, you know, definitely I'm sure the bar scene will take that over a lot stronger than let's say the dining room. Kerry Newsome : And then New Year's Eve, is there any good spots for New Year's Eve? Jovel Chan : So New Year's Eve, similarly with Christmas, you'll see a lot of hotels during New Year's Eve. Mainly hotels, especially for brunch. A lot of restaurants don't necessarily do a New Year's Eve brunch, they'll do a set menu. Yeah, because, you know, wastage and costs and if you want people to work on these public holidays, you would pay them three times as much. At that point of time, I think a lot of the restaurants are like, hey, you know what, we probably won't get that many people because, you know, we've got our own festivities or perhaps they're not in Vietnam celebrating. So why do we want to do a brunch? So it's usually for the hotels to take over. Kerry Newsome : I have a prediction. I reckon in the next few years they'll be doing more around Christmas and Christmas lunches because the Westerners are coming and they've got to have Christmas lunch or dinner somewhere. And obviously places that cater to that are going to be in high demand. Jovel, let's finish up and I'd really like to throw it to you now to talk about what you're doing with the Saigon Supper Club, you know, just your passion behind it. I'm really keen to, because it's new and it sounds fabulous. So, over to you. Jovel Chan: Oh, thank you. So Saigon Supper Club are basically dinner experiences where people come. It's very much a food but also social experience where we host groups of 10 to 15 people in very unique spaces. So we've done ones on rooftops, we've done ones in farmhouses, we've done ones in wine cellars. And in the same vein as fun dining, it's to make dining fun. And we also bring people such as the bartenders and the chefs and they also all get involved to interact with the people and the diners and also showcase at the same time modern Vietnamese cuisine and also other products such as craft gin. We've done rum before, we've done chocolate pairing. So in this one little dinner, you get to really interact with a lot of things that allow you to also indulge in the food culture that is super new in Vietnam, right? The dining scene here. So that's what we've been doing with Saigon Supper Club. And we're in the midst of launching new experiences. We're doing Cocktail Cinema Club, where it's basically outdoor cinema experiences where we bring in our food and beverage partners. And what we're trying to do here in Vietnam is to create occasions for people to enjoy food and drink. Right now, you can only experience it within the four walls of a restaurant. But that's not how you should be enjoying or learning how to dine. or how to enjoy food just within the four walls of the restaurant. So we need to create these events and festivals and make it fun and attract people by coming out to do something new and novel, like an outdoor cinema on the rooftop in the middle of District 1. And through there, be like, hey, you know what? Here's a glass of wine. And get them to try new things in this manner. Otherwise, it will just always be stuffy. Otherwise, for the first time, people are trying wine and it's in a restaurant in perhaps a way that they can't afford it. So that's what we want to do. We want to make dining and drinking and going out and experiencing food very fun. That's why it was also the inspiration to create a lot of these events and experiences to just encourage people to come out, meet other like-minded people and build habits that encourage them to take the second step and make dining in Vietnam a lot more sustainable beyond just something stuffy like steak and wine. We're launching our first cocktail cinema In Christmas time, we're showing Love Actually. We managed to get it with subtitles, fully licensed. And we have an audio solution provider that allows people to just watch the movie with their own AirPods or earphones, you know, no crazy sound systems and stuff. So it's going to be a really, really… Do you have a date for that? We are finalizing the date with the venue at the moment, but once I do, I'll let you know. We will invite our craft beer and cider and wine friends to come in here to do You know, that's the place where people can actually try it in a very casual, fun and local way. Kerry Newsome : And I think that social interaction, you know, where you can, you know, you can stand around with people and say, what do you think? And you know, that tastes a bit like this. Did you try this one? And it's just all that sharing is so much fun and makes it just, I think that much more enjoyable. In just closing up, Jovel, is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't ask you when we're talking about dining and the dining scene in Vietnam? Should I have asked you something and I didn't get around to it? Jovel Chan: No, but you should be asking me, you know, when the next time you're going to be in Vietnam and go out for coffee, very offended about that. Asking me when you can take me out for lunch, perhaps? Kerry Newsome : Yes, I will. Definitely. I'm writing that down as we speak. I'm going to make sure that I put your links so that people can go to your website because your website's fantastic, by the way. It's got some great information and your blog. Thank you so much. You've really got some great information. So, people, get onto that website and check out. all her information on the restaurants. If you want some great ideas to share with your family, friends, or when you're over there, don't miss out on that link and it'll be in the show notes. Jovel, I just want to say thank you again for being on the show. You've been a wonderful guest and I'm just grateful for your time. Jovel Chan : Thank you so much for having me. Happy dining.

Out & About in Hồ Tràm Vietnam Kerry Newsome : Xin chào and welcome to What About Vietnam. So today here we are in Ho Tram and this is the second installment in the What About Vietnam series which I'm kind of calling Out and About and Out and About is today in Ho Tram. Now, Ho Tram is a very small beach town located in Vietnam's, now you're going to kill me with this, I'm not going to be able to pronounce it correctly, but it's Ba Rai Vung Tau province. And it's kind of situated about 125 kilometers southeast of Ho Chi Minh City. Now, the purpose of this episode is to look at the situation where you're going to choose a hotel as your location. Not a city, not a township, not an adventure. You're not going to go hiking, you're not going to go caving. You're going to come to a hotel. And I did an episode back in season four, episode 18, where we featured luxury brand experiences in Vietnam. And I did that with a lovely luxury expert. And she was able to share with me some places that she said, you know, you just go there the hotel. You don't go there to do anything else but to experience the hotel. The hotel is the place, it's the destination, it's the location. So today I'm joined with my partner in crime here, Kelley McCarthy, and I was able to ask her to come with me to do this together so that we could share and compare how we viewed this kind of experience. I'm sure you're going to get a bit of a giggle because she's all about giggles. And definitely I think some ideas because I think for most people they are short on ideas for about a two hour or three hour venture out of Saigon. Like typically those would be Mekong Delta, Ben Tre or out to Can Tho. So this is an alternative, but this is five star, so I'm going to ask my five star girl to join me here. Hello Kelley McCarthy. So here we are girl, we need to maybe give everyone a bit of a heads up into, let's tell them how we got here, as I think you might be the best to just recall that little trip. Kelley McCarthy : So our little adventure started when we left Saigon You can arrange with the hotel to use the courtesy bus that will bring you out here, which is a great saving because it's probably 1.5 to 2 million each way if you were to arrange transport, so it's a great little bonus in your package and You just book in advance you're out there and return. My suggestion will be get on that bus a little quicker than we did and don't think you're cool by going to the back. You end up sitting over the two back wheels which means really you should bring a kidney belt to hold everything in place as you bounce up and down on the great little roads out here. Kerry Newsome: Yes, there was a few twists and turns there and we did, you know, we're the type that just go to the back of the bus. That's just our thing. And we had, you know, a fair bit of luggage. But one of the, I think, smart things we did was do this on a weekday. So we didn't come on the weekend where traditionally I think a lot more local Vietnamese would come. So we did this on a Monday. So the Starting point was a cafe where everyone met. We were very welcomed at this cafe to leave our bags while the bus came to get us. And then we piled into that little bus and we trotted along at a very even speed. We could holler for a bath stop if we needed to. But yeah, we were on the back wheels there, and we were jogging along the way. And there's a bit of video that I think Kelly was so kind to capture during that part. So let's talk about, like, Kelly, for you, when we decided to do this, like, what was your headset around coming out here and, like, not going anywhere else other than the hotel? Kelley McCarthy : Well for me, for starters, anyone that knows me, I'm a shopper, so Saigon is my favourite city, getting out and about. So coming out here I knew it was all about relaxation, so we planned that we would make it a short stay of only a couple of days. um coming out here so on the way out it was a case of right let's get into wind down mode cocktails wine nibbles on the beach putting the swimsuit on and just floating in the pool if you could see me now you would definitely see that i've been floating in the pool today i'm like a little lobster so Don't forget to pack that sunscreen and take it down to the pool. It's all about relaxation when you come out here. Don't come out to a destination hotel and think you're going to go off to a little township. By all means, if you were out here for more than a couple of days, you can arrange tours to go and see the local area but you don't really want to leave the resort because it's got everything here. It's beautiful, it's got day spas which we sort of indulged in today which was magnificent. You've got a cafe, you've got a couple of choices of restaurants, it's got everything that you need just to unwind. Kerry Newsome : And I think unwind is a good word. I think I was mouthing the word chill, chill everywhere. I mean, we're in close vicinity to Vung Tau. So if you wanted to, you wanted to make a day trip, that would be a very easy one. Kelley McCarthy : It's very close by. About 22 k's for anyone. Yes. Interested. Kerry Newsome : So I mean, that would be a city and obviously with its own history and its own culture and its own story to tell. So you could do that. But getting back to, I hate to harken on this everyone, but like the purpose of this trip was to really find a destination hotel. In other words, a hotel, and I'm not by means saying that where we chose to say is the only hotel to do this, or the only hotel in this region. It's the one we chose to do, and we chose it because I'd had some great advice and some recommendations to do so. But, you know, in my mind I was thinking, now, you know, it's a short trip, it's two hours, I'm coming here with a fun girl, so, you know, I've got entertainment actually sitting alongside me if it all else fails. But the chill factor was, a great thing because we had been super busy in Saigon. And when you come to Saigon, it's so easy to get caught up in the electricity of that city and you're kind of doing things all the time. So if you are looking for just a breakaway, you've got the villas here for a family. You know, we walked past, you know, the pool tonight when you're coming down and they had a movie set up on the lawn with bean bags and they were selling popcorn. So I'm trying to get in that fulfill, I guess is the other word, that out and about story, but talk it through with you in regards to the headset you have. So if you are wanting to come out and about in Ho Tram and you're choosing a hotel, chill's got to be your number one factor. Come out here to literally do nothing. Now I'm going to put it on Kelly and I'm going to say, okay, what do you think are the standouts for this location as a hotel? Kelley McCarthy: I think it's got an amazing pool right with an infinity over the beach. So for those people that are just traveling and might be doing a quick seven day trip in and out of Ho Chi Minh City, you can get a little bit of variety by coming out here because you're actually getting to a beach where in Saigon there is no beaches. So you get out here. So that's a standout for itself. You don't have to take a flight. So there's none of those check-in times to go to a further away area. It had great food. We've tried all the restaurants here on site. It had a pool bar. Like I said, we tried the day spa today, which was exceptional. Kerry Newsome: The day spa, I have to say, is now, I've now decided that Vietnam has got the quality of day spas that you need and expect as a Westerner. It was just die for. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, using Thalgo products, so it was a fabulous day spa, not using sort of a product that might have been a Vietnamese product that we didn't. And there is a kids club here, at the moment it is currently under renovation, so you could come out as a family if you wish to. But a little joke aside, Kerry and I did note that it was a lot of loved up couples out here. and over 55, so of course that sort of cut us out on both angles. We did talk about tonight being loved up coming back from dinner just to fit in with the crowd, but definitely a romantic place if you're wanting to bring your partner here for a couple of days to wow them or for those guys out there, pop the question. It's a great location for that. Kerry Newsome: But don't come out here thinking that you'll find somebody to pop the question. All loved up. No, they're definitely with somebody else and they do not have eyes to spare for you. Sorry about that. But so definitely families, couples of any descriptions. Probably misfits like us who you know like we could pretend to be a couple any day but like probably not have the full length of that. but like it was just very very noticeable for us as we walked around. Kelley McCarthy: It's where you seek a little bit of privacy as well because if you're a traveler that's been to some of the other resorts of places you know that got pool bars such as Bali or Thailand this is not that kind of destination it's not party crowds by the pool. It's more intimate. I think everyone comes here for a little bit of intimacy. But very beautiful. The wind blowing. The beach is divine isn't it? It is really lovely. Kerry Newsome: White sand for miles. Very easy access. I really liked the openness. No gating. hard security kind of feel around it. It was very, very relaxed. Staff were mostly good. I think, you know, we're still experiencing some issues with language where, you know, lots of hand gestures goes on and lots of kind of pointing to things. And I think staff is still trying to, you know, step up to the ability to be able to converse with us with English as well as they did pre-COVID. Kelley McCarthy: I think a really important point to note here, if there's any travellers out there that are mobility impaired, it would be an easy resort to get around. Wide pathways, there's also, even if you're a little bit older, as in the over 55s we spoke about, There is golf buggies that can drive you around the resort as well so it would cater to those sort of people that were just wanting to relax but really couldn't sort of walk too far or anything because it is quite a spread out resort so that would give you that opportunity if you are that way to enjoy it as well. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and I think I tried to bring it up in the sense too that it's kind of an escape from Saigon. It's got beautiful golf courses. In fact, Ho Tram has been known mostly for golf in previous years. It's only really just come to the fore again in trying to promote itself as a luxury five-star resort location. So, you know, I get a lot of people that say, look, you know, they've been to Saigon or they're coming through Saigon and they've got a couple of days spare. They don't want to go out in the heat and do the Mekong Delta. They don't. They've already done the Cu Chi Tunnels. They just want somewhere else to go and I thought I needed to find somewhere else that could just give that escape. Sure, it's five star and it is a little bit more costly. Let's talk about cost just into the field of things today. What do you think? Kelley McCarthy: I think, well, Kerry and I did the package where you have a choice. You can come out here and you can either just do your room stay, which includes breakfast, or you do have the opportunity to do half board or full board. We went for half board, which gave us breakfast and dinners, and that made it extremely affordable. I think for the five-star resort that it definitely is, it made it extremely affordable because you got, at your dinner time, you got an entree, a main, a dessert, and one beer or soft drink. There was no wine or spirits, but for anyone out there that wants a nice cold beer sitting on the beach, looking out over the ocean, it was a great opportunity. So I think the board package definitely makes it affordable. Because just keep in mind, you are isolated, so you're a captured audience. So costs are a little bit higher when it comes to your drinks and your food. So if you can do that half board package, it just makes it really affordable, I feel. Kerry Newsome: Absolutely. And you've got to remind yourself too, you are in a five-star resort. So, once again, we're sort of saying it's a destination, but it's still a hotel. It's a five-star hotel. And it's got restaurants, and it's got bars, and it's got beach, and it's got drinks in the pool, and it's got spa, and it's got everything. The room sizes are definitely ample. We're staying in a two-bedroom apartment, which is just delightful. We've got, you know, water provided, we've got coffee, beautiful breakfast. So, you know, I think if you can get your head wrapped around the idea of, you know, being out and about in Ho Tram but at a hotel. I think that's the caveat I need to put to this that it, we didn't go out into Ho Tram. You know, we looked out the windows and we've kind of seen some farming areas and we've thought, you know, maybe next time we would venture out and look, you know, further. Both of us have already been to Vung Tau, so, you know, that's not a city that we wanted to go to on this trip. So I really honed in on the fact that the hotel is the destination. So I hope if you've got any further questions you'll get in touch. We're certainly keen for you to share these episodes as I'm going out. I'm really enjoying the fact of being out and about and trying new places. and even some old places, to be honest, and finding new things. And doing this with Kelly has just been an absolute joy. So please share, please send me your reviews, please follow us on our Facebook, our Instagram and TikTok and LinkedIn pages. and we'd love to hear from you. Thanks, Kel, for being on the show. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, and I think we should also note that we haven't been paid to come out here and review The Melia Resort. Kelley McCarthy : This came out of our own back pockets, so to bring you the best reviews on this, and I would highly recommend it for a couple of days out of Saigon. Kerry Newsome : Right with you. Anyway, thanks, everyone.

What About Vietnam – S5-E3 Heritage and discovery in Saigon, The Mekong Delta and Dalat 00:00 Kerry Newsome Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Today I'm talking to Vicky Thai from Utah, USA. Hello to all my listeners in Utah. I have heaps actually, it's quite surprising, but really lovely and hello to everyone. Now Vicky is a very special lady with a history that I feel sure will come to bare during the show. And it speaks to her reason for going to Vietnam in the first place, and it calls to attention a little bit more about her heritage. But that's for Vicky to tell and reveal in this show. Vicky and I have become quite close over the past six months as she engaged my trip planning services through What About Vietnam to create her trip to Vietnam with her mum. As part of What About Vietnam, or WAV as we call it, I offer trip planning services, which is loads of fun and something I get really involved with as I get to create wonderful trips for people using my knowledge and accessing quality tour operators I know in Vietnam that will deliver exceptional services. The delight is hearing afterwards how the trips went and what were the highlights. You find detail that you just can't get in a guidebook. You find insights from people and I think the value in that is knowing that it sounds real, it sounds true, it sounds correct, and obviously it's got some bias from the people that give up their stories on the show, but at least you can be sure it's real and true. The What About Vietnam website features these travel services. I do charge a small fee to do that, but please feel free to reach out to me any time. So before we jump into the show, I'd just like to tell you a little bit more about Vicky. As I said, Vicky lives in Sandy, Utah, USA. She is in the healthcare technology industry in sales for a global company. The platform is Android and they have 55% of the global Android enterprise market share. Outside of healthcare, her company targets Fortune 500 companies and within healthcare. They target the larger hospital networks to provide clinicians with technology that improves patient care and satisfaction. Wahoo for that. She is a former runner, however, more recently she has got into the practice of hot yoga. Three cheers to you Vicky for hot yoga. She loves to travel and each year she will take off with a close friend picking a city, an area they haven't been to, and then they just go for it enjoying local food and spas as they traverse through the city. She describes herself as a definite foodie, an adventurous eater, but no to any bugs. Totally with you there. Vicky is ethnically Chinese but born in Vietnam. Now this is where her story and that of her mom becomes even more interesting. She immigrated to the States when she was four years old. In the past she said she never really had an interest in Vietnam. It wasn't until her mom had both of her knees replaced and witnessed some vulnerabilities there that she saw the opportunity to travel with her may not come up and wouldn't offer any guarantees. So she better make an effort to put it on the bucket list and get on and do it. So thus she reached out to me through What About Vietnam to help her create the trip. And the trip was to have some very special places of interest that it had to be included in the itinerary. These included Saigon, the Mekong Delta and Dalat which we will focus as a main city in this episode. Vicky's going to be able to give us some insights that I think you wouldn't get from anyone else. So I'm really, really happy that she's coming on to do that. It's been a delight to deal with Vicky. She says after completing the trip end of May just gone, that's 2023, it was a decision she will never regret or forget. I think we're going to find out more about how this trip evoked some emotions and some understanding of her heritage. She said when I've thought about my heritage in the past it was basically just in passing, just facts, no emotions. After visiting Vietnam in May, interacting with the people, the landscape and their commerce, it made me feel very proud of my heritage. I hope to be back within the next couple of years. So I think this is going to be a very special episode. It's one I've been looking forward to doing. I think we're going to hear some reflections from Vicky as how it opened her eyes to this country, her country of birth, and just how her perceptions maybe had been shaped and what she and her mom found on the other side. So Vicky, welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. It's lovely to have you on the show. 05:42 Vicki Thai Thank you so much, Harry, and thank you so much for the invite. I'm really excited to talk about our experience in Vietnam and how it really broadened my views of it. Like you mentioned in the past, I really never gave it second thought, but this trip has changed everything and how I view Vietnam. It was so amazing. As you know, my brother and his family has booked a trip with you for December. So clearly my mom and I were that convincing after coming back from our trip. And so I have another brother who is going to reach out a little bit later. His wife had unexpected brain surgery a few weeks ago. And so I think that's, you know, like with my mom's experience, that's really opened his eyes as well. And so it was just an amazing experience. 06:28 Kerry Newsome I’m excited to talk to you about it. And like, you know, not everybody has your interesting background. So I'm wondering if you can share with us just a little bit of a story, maybe starting with your mom and that trip that took her to settle in the U.S. You as a four-year-old, you know, like any memories that you have of arriving into the States and just how you were assimilated into the U.S.? 07:00 Vicki Thai Sure, absolutely. So I'm going to take it a step further and talk about my grandparents. So my grandparents on both sides actually are from China and immigrated to Vietnam to start businesses. My grandparents on my dad's side, they were cobblers or they made shoes. And then on my mom's side, they were bakers. And apparently their baker became so famous. And then they opened aquariums. And so they were very established within the Vietnam community. And then, you know, of course, then that's where my mom was born in Bailup, which is the suburb of Dulat, and why we went back there specifically on the trip in May. And then I was actually my, so I'm the youngest of four. So and then we were actually born in Saigon. And I believe we lived in District 5. And, you know, the pictures I showed you, they were District 5. And then, you know, during the Vietnam War, interesting story, my dad was an accountant for the U.S. Embassy. And so during communist regime, they have a tendency to kidnap anyone associated with Americans because there's this belief that America is paid with gold, everyone has money, right? And so they would hold the kids for ransom. And so my last name, Ty, is actually my mom's family's last name. So they could not connect us kids to my dad. Wow. And so yeah. And so because my grandparents on my mom's side was so established, we were pretty safe with the last name, Ty, right? And so during the war, what ended up happening is everyone was leaving, right? You hear both people all the time and you hear the stories. Well, they're all true, right? And some of the stories are horrendous. Ours was not great, but compared to others that I've heard, you know, it's a walk in the park. So my grandparents, my mom's side being established, they actually rented a boat for the family and friends. And my dad was actually asked to join them. And the thought was you leave the country, you go to a refugee camp, you go to your final destination, right? Ours is the U.S. And then he would sponsor the rest of the family over. So my mom and my four, and the four kids over. Well, along the Thailand coast, and you hear about pirates all the time, right? So at nighttime, the boat's dock and the pirates come out. And so our boat was targeted and all the men are thrown overboard. All the women were tied up and they ransacked and stole, right? Because when you leave the country, we can take with you, you're gonna take money, you're gonna take jewelry, you're gonna take all of that stuff. They ransacked and took all of that stuff. My dad was thrown overboard. And so, and then my uncles heard him screaming, they swam over and he was gone. So we lost my dad on his way to the, you know, to leave Vietnam. And so a telegram, my grandpa sent a telegram to my grandma. My grandma went and talked to my mom. And so we've lost our dad. And so within six months we were leaving again. My grandma said to my mom, you and your kids need to live. You don't have a life here, right? And so we left. We were on a refugee camp for, I think in Indonesia, for like six months. And then we immigrated to the U.S. And so I was four when we got here, you know, your language is developed, but not to the point where you're fluent. And so English was my language. I always spoke to my mom in English and just basically assimilated. And that's why I think when you're talking about my bio, I didn't really have a connection to Vietnam because I was so young, right? And my language, right? And I can tell you, I understand Vietnamese and I can order off the menu, right? And I speak broken Cantonese, but that's basically it, right? And so, you know, if you were to talk to people here, they're like, oh, you're just American, right? And it was funny when we were in Vietnam, our tour guide in Mekong Delta is like, and I was saying, like, thank you in Vietnamese. He's like, oh, you have an English accent. You have an American accent. And so you never think of that. And so, you know, and that's just, just, you know, I think it was just we came over and we're so young. So I was four, the oldest was nine, right? And so we basically have spent the bulk of our lives here. And, you know, I tell you, I'm 49. So I've been here basically my whole life, right? And so you really, you know, growing up, I think you hear more of that, what are you? Right? And then you hear like the racist, like little jokes that little kids do, you know, and it's very common. I know within the US and I'm sure within the rest of the world where your Asian name is different. And so it's harder to pronounce. So you change it. So I change, I picked Vicky in third grade, right? Don't ask why my ethnic name is Thanh, like Tanya, but it's spelled T-H-A-N-H, right? And I'm sure you see that name when you're in Vietnam, right? In America, it's harder to pronounce. And so you change that. What year was it when you got out of Indonesia? Was it, do you know what year that was? It was in the 80s. So we got to the US early 81. All right. And how old would your mom have been at that time? My dad died when she was 31. And so not long after she took us and the, you know, my dad's aunt who was basically our nanny, then we left Vietnam to come to the, well, and here's the thing. When you go to a refugee camp, you really don't know where your final destination is, right? It could be Australia. It could be, it's just wherever your sponsors are. But yeah, but we landed in Utah in early 81. Is there a big community of Vietnamese in Utah? Yeah. Well, supposedly there is because we are getting Asian supermarkets. We're getting Asian bakeries. We're getting Asian drink shops all over the Salt Lake Valley. And so I remember my sister-in-law and I, who's also Asian, were saying, I didn't know there were so many Asians here, right? But if you were to talk to people who are very vested in the Asian community, they will tell you our Asian community is blowing up. That's why so many, you know, are coming here. When we say Asians, are you talking about the broad spectrum of Asians, like from all countries? So we're talking all of Southeast Asia kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Including China. If you think about it, including China. And you know, even though we're all very different, we eat a lot of the same food. 13:28 Kerry Newsome I have such a huge percentage of listeners. So like I have over 60,000 listens of the show and it grows at around about a thousand a week. And what became unusual for me was to think, why would people in Utah be listening to this podcast about Vietnam? And I did a little bit of digging and the more I dug away and, you know, thank God for Google, to find out that in 1975 onwards, that Utah as a state was one of the few in America that did take and was willing to accept a lot of Vietnam refugees. The community, I think, stemmed from, and that's why I was intrigued with your story when we first got together, was, and particularly when you were mentioning about your mum wanting to come back, I had that thought, I was thinking, gee, I wonder whether in the mix of things, this is how this has come about. But this was also where American GIs had, you know, formed relationships with Vietnamese women and they wanted to bring them as their partners back and their families, et cetera. So there was a few particular states that kind of welcomed with open arms the Vietnamese into the US at that time. So that's kind of what I know to add to this little equation. Interest. There you go. You go to Vietnam in 2023, the first time you've been back since you were four and since she was 30. So you're going in almost, not blind, but a really open mind. Or did your mum say, oh, look, this is something I really need to do, or this is something I really want to find out about? Because I know we talked a little bit about it when we did the trip plan, so I know it, but my listeners don't. So let's go down that path a little bit. So share some of the things that she wanted to see and do and that you wanted to make sure happened. 15:41 Vicki Thai Sure. Absolutely. So for clarification, my mum has gone back to Vietnam, I believe, twice in our 40 something years within the US, but it's been a very long time ago. And in the past, she went with her friends. And, you know, as you know, with a lot of Asians, right, they are very good with their money. So when they go back, they stay with family. And even the best accommodations, possibly in Vietnam, is very different from what we have in the Western side, right? And so did she enjoy it? You know, I'm not sure. But, you know, she was always happy to come home, right? Let's just say that. And so for my mum, it was to, you know, she's 75, right? And you don't, you know, at a certain age, you don't have that many more opportunities ahead of you, because after a while, maybe, you know, your health breaks down a little bit and sitting on a flight for 20 plus hours is going to be very difficult, right? And then also, she just had her knees replaced. And for me, it was spending time with my mum, right? Because it's an experience, right? We could go around town here, but it's very normal. This is different. Yeah, it's bonding. This is something I can share with her. And I can see her where she grew up, so I can better understand sometimes. You know, we don't always mess well. She would say things, I'm like, that doesn't make sense. And she's like, well, if you understood how I grew up, you know, you would be more sympathetic or understanding about it. And here's the thing, because I didn't grow up that way, I'm not going to understand. And so it was just an opportunity. And then also, after, you know, with my mum, it'd be nice to really know where I came from, right? Because all I know is the US. I'm all American, right? That's all I know, right? And so that was the deciding point. And that was when the ball got rolling with contacting you. 17:33 Kerry Newsome There was really specific locations. And I want to now start to talk about those locations, because I think, you know, everyone listening is going to be fascinated about these locations. Now, let's start with Saigon. Did Saigon blow your hair back when you got there? 17:51 Vicki Thai I loved it. I loved it. I loved the hustle and bustle. I love city life, right? And then like, I would go to the more remote for quote unquote, a vacation or a break. But I love city life. I love the sounds. I love the smell. I love the people. It was it blew my mind. And I think all the scooters at one time blew my mind. And I remember saying to our tour guide, I said, I can never drive here because I would kill, you know, two or three scooter people at every drive. And she's like, oh, you'll get used to it when you live here. But I just loved it. I loved how everything was so close. And I loved how if you want to eat a certain food, there is a street and there's all these restaurants that just sells that. I'm going to be honest, I loved it. That is a city that's close to my heart. I can tell you, you know, anytime I go back, that is I will never miss that city. It just felt so at home to me. 18:34 Kerry Newsome Look, I'm really glad you've said that about Saigon, because a lot of people skip Saigon. It's like a little bit too overwhelming or whatever. I think it's got over the years better. I mean, it's embraced commercialism to the absolute max, but it's got a vibe. It's got an energy. I agree with you. I get a grab bike and I, you know, I'm on that bike in two seconds flat around the corner, you know, the best coffee, coffee houses everywhere. Yeah, I'm really glad that you had that experience because I wasn't sure because I have such a mix in my suite of people who want to visit Vietnam. And some just go, oh, you know, the bikes, the pollution, the rubbish, you know, all of those things. And they're all there. They're all definitely there. But you either are a type of person and you go, I'm going to just embrace this and go with it. 19:40 Vicki Thai And I was really glad to hear that you did. Right. And it was funny because we had a couple when we were going to the Mekong Delta. So the shuttle picked us up. Right. And so they picked us up first and then we went to their hotel. They're a British couple. And every year they take, you know, global trips. And one of the things that they said to us, and I will never forget it, just because we were just talking about how much I love the hustle and bustle of Saigon. And they said Saigon is exactly where Singapore was 10 years ago. And then we all hear about Singapore now. Right. And so I'm really excited, you know, to each time I go back to see how Saigon transforms. Right. And then maybe eventually 10 years, they will be, you know, the Singapore of, you know, Asia. But it was just really interesting. And I just, I just loved it. I just, I love the hustle and bustle. I just loved all of them. 20:29 Kerry Newsome . No, I can remember where there was a time where there was no malls. There was, the shopping was very, very limited to Ben Thanh markets. And that whole experience was just at a really basic level, but it's so sophisticated. Now I've had, I've been to fine dining restaurants that would rival any restaurant that you would find in the US or here in Australia. Like the food was just absolutely fabulous. The service, I get blown away. I think you also had a really good guide in Saigon. 21:02 Vicki Thai . Oh, yes. Thuy was phenomenal. My mom and I are just like, who is like that? Right. It's like, I believe I'm a pretty nice person, but she blows me. I'm mediocre compared to her. You know, she's just so thorough. She is so caring. You know, I tell you what, I can't speak enough of her. And as you know, I requested specifically that with my brother's family, you know, if they should have Tui as their tour guide. Yeah, she is phenomenal. She is, my mom, I think considers her as her fifth child, you know, just because the hospitality there is one of the things that I think one of the highlights of the trip, and I think I mentioned to you, is our tour guides. You know, Tui was exceptional, you know, on any respect, right? But, you know, even our tour guide on the Mekong Delta, he was phenomenal. Our tour guides and their drivers. It was just, I just could not believe these people, the hospitality, the kindness, right? And I really feel like, you know, we could all talk about tour guides and then we've, I think we've all experienced tour guides who clearly don't want to be there. It's a job. None of our tour guides, yeah, yeah, none of our tour guides like that. And I just think to myself, if I just had people after people coming day after day, could I keep this up? I'm not sure I can, right? And so I, and that's one of the things that I love. And I mentioned it to my family and my part of it, that's made me so proud of my heritage is that just the kindness of the people, right? Because growing up, we always hear about how poor Vietnam is and how uneducated the people are, right? And all that stuff. And just being there in May, it blew me away because they were educated, they were kind, they were well spoken. And, you know, here's the thing, they spoke English to me and they spoke Vietnamese to my mom, you know, without a hitch. And so I will tell you that the people there are so kind, are so good. It was, it would not, you would not consider people in a developing country like Vietnam to be as, I don't want to say classy, but I'm going to use that term because I can't think of another, as classy and thoughtful as the people and the tour guides that we had in Vietnam. And Tuy was, I mean, they were all phenomenal, but Thuy is at the top. 23:22 Kerry Newsome When you go to a foreign country, the people and how you are treated to me, uh, says a lot about the country itself. Now, I mean, we both know the history of Vietnam and just how the country has been through so much, and yet they can still welcome us so warmly, so friendly, so openly, so generously. I feel the Vietnamese have a generous spirit and they, you know, they will, nothing, nothing is too much trouble. Service is just. 24:13 Vicki Thai Yeah. Well, it's like what we're talking about. It's for, you know, for maybe in Australia and the West, you know, and the U S it's a, it's a job, right? And where I just, you know, I never felt like we were imposing. I never felt that, um, you know, we were asking for too much. I never, they never made us feel that way. And it was so welcoming. I remember we stepped off the plane, right? It was a 24 hour flight. Tuy picked us up and it was like 10 30 at night. And she just waved and I was just like, you know, and then the first thing she says is happy birthday. And I looked at her. I was like, how did you know? She was like, it was on your passport. And it was like, it's just the little things, right? And I think, you know, it being in sales and for you working with the public so much, it's, it's always accumulation of little things that adds up to a really big thing. Definitely. And I think Vietnam exemplifies that with their people. I'm keen to hear what you thought of the Mekong Delta and what story and history you got around that area. So we did the Mekong Delta cruise, right? On Mekong ice. And I tell you, um, you know, our tour guide was Jonathan there. He was phenomenal. He was just phenomenal. So friendly, so educated on everything. And the thing I love about the Mekong Delta, what it was, you know, we're on the cruise and we're just going by and then you see so many homes, you know, on, on the coast of it. And so many are just so very run down, right? And some of it breaks your heart because you realize, you know, he actually lived this way, right? And then, but we went to, you know, we stopped and we did this walking tour and it's all these tropical fruits. And we went to this house and they have this huge, oh my God, I can't even imagine this garden with fruits, vegetables, everything. And the people were just so kind. I'm not sure I can sit and cut fruit for people every day, multiple times and have a smile on my face. You know, strangers coming to your house, eating your fruit, right? And it was, I tell you, it was just phenomenal. And, you know, and there's just, there was something about Jonathan that he was just so kind. And I just remember he liked talking to my mom because my mom's a jokester. She's not that way with her kids, but she's that way with others, right? You know, I was just talking to him and he is just like, you know, I love talking to your mom because it reminds me of this and I said, oh, that's nice, right? And one of the things that, and it really like, it really, you know, touched me. He was like, she reminds me of my mom. And I said, oh, how nice, right? And then he was just like, and here's the thing, his mom died in 2017. And here my mom is, and he was like, her voice sounds like her, the way she jokes sounds like her, everything. And after I heard that, I'm like, talk to her all you want, you know, because it was like, and I could tell my mom was enjoying it because she's in her element, right? Because English, she understands a lot of it, but not as much as Vietnamese. And so it was, I loved it. We went to the floating market, which I, you know, just watching the people and you think to yourself, oh my God, how do you make a life out of it? Right. And Jonathan was saying, so when the kids, I said, well, when the kids, where do they go to school? And he was like, well, they don't go to school. Right. And I said, well, where do they bait? You know, he's like, well, they'll jump in the Delta. I'm like, it was like, if you and I were to jump in, we would come out, I'll itch you, right? But they're so accustomed to it. And then I was just like, you learn all this stuff. And I said, well, these boats, like the pineapple couple boat, I said, is there a bathroom in there? And he was like, no, he was like, do you see these ladies with their boats? They're like taxis. And so if you need to use a restroom, they build it, you know, at a certain area and they take them there. And I just thought to myself, oh my God, what a tough life, but they're choosing it. And you just have to think to yourself, God, props to you for, you know, he said a lot of the pineapple, they actually have a home on the mainland, right? But they choose to live on the boat because it's more simple. I don't know about you, Carrie, but I would not be, you know, choosing to leave my home to live on a boat where I have to take a taxi to use the restroom. You know what I mean? A water taxi. And you just have to think to yourself, number one, how tough they are. And the love for living a simple life, they're willing to give up modern necessities or modern conveniences to this life. So for people like us, touring can climb on their boat to have some pineapple. You know, you just have to give them props for that because they're choosing to live a life that's far more difficult than a life that you and I would ever choose. 28:52 Kerry Newsome You've got to also think that it's kind of in their DNA. You know, they have come from that heritage. So they intrinsically know it so well. Like you and I, we'd be falling out of the boats. We'd be, you know, wanting to go to the toilet every 10 minutes. So we'd be getting, we would be an absolute pain in the neck. I know I would be. So I think also where it's challenging for the future, when I've talked to various guides and I've been a couple of times now, is that it is a dying industry per se because the children that they're having are getting better educated as obviously they want them to be. So they don't want to come back and earn a living on those boats. They don't want to have those inconveniences of life. They want, you know, they want the modern future. And so there's probably only about a hundred or so families that now choose that and continue that. So, you know, it's not going to be there for much longer, which is a little bit sad, but you can, that's progress, I guess, in its most basic form. But it's fascinating, isn't it, to see it and to realize that this is happening. This is not a show. This is not like put on just for tourists. This goes on whether I come and visit it or see it anyway. It's day to day existence and livelihood for a lot of people. So I'm glad you got to see that because it's just even a good measurement back for yourself when you come back to your own country and you've got all the mod cons and you've got, you know, your life, you go, oh my God. 30:44 Vicki Thai Well, it certainly makes you appreciate what you have in your life, right? Because I don't have to call a water taxi to use the restroom, you know? 30:52 Kerry Newsome All right. So then we moved you to Dalat and I really want you to go all out on Dalat because it's the one city amongst all my podcasts that I haven't really found the right person to talk about. I've been myself, but I really wanted someone that had a reason to go there and had some history about the place. And guess what? That's you. So tell us about Dalat. 31:21 Vicki Thai Yeah. So Dalat is a city my mom grew up in with her family. And so, I mean, not only did her family start the bakery and their business in Saigon, but they actually started in Dalat, then moved to the larger city. And so they were successful in Dalat as well. And so I wanted to go back to see where my mom grew up. Right. And, you know, it's like, maybe it could explain something. Right. And I tell you what, it was nothing that I expected. It was first off, amazingly beautiful. It was, I mean, I remember our driver and tour guide. I'm like, where are we going? Right. Because it was like, we're on the freeways and also we exit and we're like in this forest. And I said, I thought we're going to Dalat and they're like, yeah, we are. And I was like, what are you guys talking about? And so I'm thinking, oh my God, we're going to this, you know, one horse town, one stoplight, you know, we're going to have to dig our own place to use the restroom. And so we're just driving through the, you know, driving through and it's just beautiful. It was just, and then you see some, you know, some farmers on the side and I was just like, oh my God, this is so beautiful. And then before you know it, you drive in, you take a curve and this, this city just rises up to meet you, you know? And I was just like, okay, this is not what I expected. And we're driving through and it's this bustling city. It's not like Saigon, right? There, I mean, there are scooters, but it's, it's, it's, it's a slower pace, but it's not slow, right? Don't think it's country. It's not. And then there's still the food, the markets, everything, but it's just a different feel. I, you know, I was thinking about this the other day and it was maybe it's more of a calming city where, and you know, and I think I mentioned it, you could see the difference, right? In our tour guides, like Thuy is very high energy and our Dalat tour guide, he's very high energy too, but there's also a calmness about him. And I, and you can actually relate that to Dalat because that's how it is. It's this bustling city, but there's this underlying calmness about it as well, you know? And it was, I have to say it was beautiful. It was very lush. There's commerce, but not like you see in Saigon where it's just hustle, bustle. You know, the streets are cleaner, I believe. And the people are friendlier, I think, right? They're less city because I live in the city. I get it, right? They were just, you know, it was an amazing experience. And then there's this fog that I just, it's probably one of the most peaceful things I've ever seen. You have this hustle and bustle of the city and then you see like this layer of fog, just kind of like, and it's just, it's such a contrast, I think, the city is because there's this calmness about it, but then there's also a lot of activity going on. I loved it and the climate was different. Saigon was hot. Yeah, Saigon is just hot. I mean, I remember I just continually sweat. And, but Delac, it's warm, right? They call it cold. Our tour guides wearing a jacket. It was kind of funny, right? And here I am in shorts and a tank top, you know. But there is just, there's a difference humanity about the city that's different from the larger, more hustle and bustle. I agree. You know, and, and it's beautiful. And there's a lot more colonial architecture, I believe is, is the right way to say it, right? Well, colonial and there's also a lot of French, there's more European influence. Yes. Yeah. 34:52 Kerry Newsome And it's very pretty. It's, it's a pretty city. Did you see the purple? Very hilly. 35.00 Vicki Thai Yeah, it's very hilly, right? And I just, I tell you what, and it was just a different feel. It's a city. Don't get me wrong. It's not country. There's nothing country about it, right? It was beautiful. And I think it's like Saigon, you have to really hustle and get to where you need to be. I think Dalat, you could really dilly dally and linger and just, you know, walk and enjoy the scenery. I think that is more expected and accepted in Dalat than you would have in Saigon. 35:26 Kerry Newsome I'll tell you what I know about it and see whether it matches up with you. It's, it's very well known to be a romantic city. So a lot of Vietnamese go there. And if it's got the vibe that you're talking about, they go there for the honeymoons. So ,it's chosen for a lot of Vietnamese as their honeymoon resort place to visit. And I think that's also because it's cooler. So that kind of helps. And it's very pretty. And they've got the beautiful lake and they've got that purple restaurant there. I don't know whether you remember that. I remember that. Yeah. But the other things that I noticed about it was its fruit and the size of the fruit. And they do a lot of things like jams and things like that, which is really unusual for Vietnam, but it's one of the very few places. There was strawberries the size of apples. They would just, I couldn't believe them. Like one strawberry would consume me like one apple. It was just, and you know how you love the pineapple in the Mekong Delta? Well, to me, those strawberries, if I could have taken them home with me, I would have. And then they have beautiful gardens and they have beautiful flowers and they have what they call their “Everlastings. And these are flowers that are said to never die. Now I thought like someone's pulling my leg here, like seriously, but these flowers are real flowers. They're not imitations, but they are said to never die. Why or how? There's a mystery behind it. I never got to the bottom of it, but you're right. In the hills, the beautiful scenery, beautiful scenery, and I got to visit some of the waterfalls. And my favorite waterfall was Pongour. That's P-O-N-G-O-U-R. If I was sending people to Dalat, I would definitely be sending them into the hills. So talk a little bit about your stay. 37:43 Vicki Thai Yeah. So we stayed, I forget the name. You're going to jump in and tell me what that accommodation was in Dalat. Ana Mandara. It was a dream. I tell you what, if you think of a, number one, the service was impeccable and they have their reception center. It's actually a built out. There are no doors. You just walk in there, seating with pillows. It is, I tell you what, it is when you think about where you go to relax. And I could really see this be a honeymoon place, like you mentioned, just because there's this romantic feel about it. Everything is just serene. It's calm and the decor was impeccable. And the people were just unfathomably nice. I just could not believe it. I mean, talk about service. And so there are, this is actually where French soldiers, I believe, during the war, they built it for them. And so there are these individual cottages throughout the resort. And that's where your accommodations are. Right. And so they actually have someone who drives a golf cart, who takes you to where you're staying. And then you walk up these stairs where ours were upstairs. And then you walk in, you go up to your room and you walk in. And it's like this paradise, dreamy. There's this king size bed. The furnishing was impeccable. There are these, what are they called? The little curtains above your bed? The netting for the mosquitoes. Yeah, the netting. And it was, I would, I tell you what, whoever redid it and designed it, props to them because, and it was just so comforting. It was so serene. And then they give you, like you mentioned, the fruit, a plate of fruit, local fruit there, the wax apples, which we don't have a lot in the U.S. And I opened up the balcony door and then you just see the whole resort. And it was, I tell you what, if anyone's going to Latt, that is a good accommodation to really feel that you're in the middle of it, the culture. Right. Because I sent you the videos, I woke up at six in the morning, opened my balcony, walked out and there was like, it was, you see the beautiful trees and everything, but there's this, there's this fog that moves around and the smell, the sound, everything. And it was because of my mom's knee surgery, we had to ask them to bring the golf cart. I tell you what, I call front desk and I said, Hey, listen, we're heading to the dining hall for breakfast. She's like, okay, we'll be there. They are there literally in like three minutes, three minutes. I mean, talk about service, right? In the U.S. we're like, if they get here in 10, we're good. But three minutes, so how else? Yeah. And then like after dinner, we had the staff at the restaurants, I mean, after breakfast, Hey, will you call them? We need right back. Two minutes. It was impeccable service. The accommodations were impeccable. The food was amazing. And the room size. Oh, the room size. Massive, isn't it? Like I lived in places that size. Yes. Yes. And here's the thing too. It is very, it is not what you, it's not the developing country luxury. It is modern Western, what you would expect luxury. And so I think if any of your guests want somewhere where it's romantic, because here's the thing, I think no matter what time of day it is in Dalat, it's going to be romantic, right? Just because it's that kind of city. You should stay there just because, and there's a lot of privacy too. And it's just, I just imagine walking through the side box that they have that's so paved and in the morning with the fog, I mean, how much more romantic could that get, right? And the food, I mean, everything that we ate is very local. They had a jam, a mulberry jam that they actually, I think, picked not far from where. That's so I was saying to you about the jams. Like, yeah, who would think of Vietnam and jam? Like, yeah, yeah. And mulberry jam, right? And so yeah, but it's, it is just one of those accommodations. I loved it. I thought it was beautiful. I, and everything was mull weight. And I think one of the things I want to throw out there, I purchased plug converters, power converters, two of them, just to take every accommodation that we went to had the the US accommodation, the two prongs. So I never had to use it, which was a huge surprise to me. And it kind of tells you how developed Vietnam is becoming. 42:22 Kerry Newsome That's really good to note. It's something I haven't thought to mention, because I have to take converters from Australia, because ours is different. Yeah, now that's really good to mention. When I think of Dalat I think of that lushness and that, and the fog and the architecture and the lake and the purple. But the other thing to share with you about Dalat which I don't know whether you went to, the markets are specialised in fabrics. So people often go just to Dalat to the markets because they are well known in all of Vietnam to specialise in fabric. So I have bought fabric there to have made, to have something made in Hoi An. And in Hoi An, they told me, oh, if you want this and you want that kind of fabric, and you've got to go to Dalat for that. So it was one of the things that I did was to investigate. And in these markets, there was just like flaws and flaws of all this fabric. It was overwhelming, the different I didn't even know that many variances existed of different types of fabric. And then they also have, because the traditional dress, the alzai, which I've got a few of, because I love them. I think they're a beautiful garment, really elegant, really lovely. Well, they have some of the materials that are used for the alzai, where you know how the top part might be plain, but then the bottom part will have some kind of image or decoration or just on the flow embroidery. So they have lots and lots and lots of that. So I was buying all this stuff and I was with a Vietnamese girlfriend of mine. She said, how many alzais are you going to have made? For God's sake, you're never going to wear that many of them. And I found it hard to kind of resist because it was so beautiful. And so I only bought two to have made, but yes, it was charming. I went up into the hills and I stayed at a chalet and it was called Zen Chalet. And get this Vicky, you will laugh at this. The situation with the chalet was the guy that owned it was from Europe, came to De Laet fell in love obviously with that architecture. And he just wanted to have this chalet overlooking this beautiful forest area like just, and the air was so sweet and so beautifully clean. And he didn't fill out a piece of paper because it was called Zen. So I said, but how do you know what I'm going to have? He said, all the girls will remember. And I said, yeah, but I had a massage as well. Yeah, it'll be fine. Like they never took any anything. It was crazy. That's amazing. Because they wanted you to Zen out. That was the whole idea of you stay there to Zen out, take in the environment, go for a walk, rest. We had a massage person come to our room and do the massage. And you know, the curtains opened out into this beautiful thing. I'm going, I'm in heaven. I just want to die right now because it was so good 45:59 Vicki Thai .. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we at the resort, we went and got massages as well. And here's the thing. I get massages here all the time. It's a different, you know, feel, but we're getting a massage there. Can you hear the birds? You know, and it's just like, literally, am I in heaven? Right? Where it's like, you're getting a massage, which is a luxury. And then you're in this, you know, the smell, and then you just hear nature where, you know, I love the city life, but what I hear is cars zooming by. And so it's just, I would say, and I also, our tour guide in Saigon says that when they go on vacation, her family goes on vacation. They actually go to the lab. She said they sleep better there. Yeah. And, and here's the thing too. And it rained overnight when we stayed there. And I tell you what, there was just something so beautiful about it because you're in this environment. You smell the air. Like you said, it's sweet. And then you just hear this rain. It's like, it's like what you feel that, and then people advertise as relaxing, you know, that this is what you want to do to, you know, de-stress to, you know, unplug all of that stuff. And I have to say the food in the lot was a little bit different. It's a little bit sweeter. I don't know if you noticed that. So they, they seasoned their food a little bit sweeter than you would get in Saigon. 47:19 Kerry Newsome Yes. So talk to me now about how your mom related to being back in Dalat and what did she notice were the most significant changes, you know, how, how did she react to the Dalat of 2023? 47:45 Vicki Thai It's so funny. She was in awe because everywhere she lived, they took us around the city because the goal was to find where she, where she grew up, the house where she grew up. And that Dalat and Vietnam is so developed now. We literally, and I say props to the driver. God bless him. He just drove us around and around hoping my mom recognizes where she lives, but she doesn't because everything is so new now. I mean, you have to admit she was 31 then she's 75 now, right? And so a lot's going to change then. And we kind of find it, but I tell you what, just she was in awe and she was just like, Oh, is that where it was? Like the open market where she went when she was little, she loved it. And all I was thinking is like, where is your house? Cause we've been around the circle like five times, right? She loved it. It brought back so many memories. And then just driving the street and she was an odd too, right? Because when she was growing up, it was a completely different city. And now there's just so much going on and she's my mom and I've seen her happy, but this was a different kind of happy and almost a peaceful happy, you know, just because it's back to where she was, you know, grew up and, and just seeing, I don't know, I can't explain it, but the city has grown and I just love watching, there were people selling raw meat, you know, on the side of the road. I even said to, he said to Dr. Torga, I said, when you eat that, do you get sick? Right? Because in the U S and Western culture, there are a lot of, you know, food, you know, there's a lot of different, uh, thresholds that you have to for your, for your meat and stuff. And he was like, well, when I eat it, I'm fine. I'm not sure if you eat it, you're going to be fine. Right. She says, because the U S has different standards and it was just seeing that. And here's the thing. What I wouldn't have done if we had the time to just walk around, you know, to walk past the style that's selling raw meat, right out in the open, right? Not in a refrigerated case to, to look at the fruit. So then, and it was, so I tell you what, my mom was so happy. She, I just remember on our last day, we were sitting and eating and she looked right at me. She's like, I want to come back. I'm like, well, hell me too. Right! 49:55 Kerry Newsome . You know, I kind of felt for your mom in the sense that it's kind of life affirming to go back to your roots, to, you know, see where you came from. It kind of, I think everyone in their life kind of has to do a full circle at some point to, to relate to why you are, how you are, where you come from. And you know, her saying to you during the time, you know, well, you, if you knew where I came from, you would better understand something. So that's kind of the older, wiser woman kind of giving you that advice. I think, you know, I think it was a lovely, and the thing I loved about you, that you wanted to do that with her, you wanted that bond and that closeness. Because as you say, in the ordinariness of every day, you know, come say, come sah! You don't do it. But when you're doing something purposeful like that, you know, and that's going back to something that she relates to, and she's got that comfort with her own language. She's with her own people. Like, you can totally get it, can't you? 50:54 Vicki Thai Like, Right. Well, it's kind of funny. I came back and I said, you know, if we were in Vietnam, mom would be the cool mom. Yeah, she would be the mom where all the kids would come to, you know, and it was just like, just because it was just the way everyone, our tour guides gravitated towards her, like Tui gravitated towards her, you know, Jonathan and, um, Hi from the Latin art driver. And I was just like, it was the side that I've never seen, right in the US. And so it was just like, it was, she was in her element. There were some things that I wanted to buy, like some jam, right? Some, some, a lot of coffee, right? Some tea, right? Cause the last 51:38 Kerry Newsome no for tea. So we did a lot of shopping, but we didn't do a lot of slicing. Oh, okay. So, cause I had you down, you were going to go into the Zen monastery and you were going to do the summer palace. Did you do any of that? Or did the shopping take over? 51:51 Vicki Thai Is that the one, is that the one where the last king? Yes, we did go there. Yes. Yes. All right. We did. It was impressive. And this is a history and here's the thing. It was impressive because all of this is surrounded just one man, right? And it was like, are you kidding me? Right. And, and I've actually, I think the story was a little bit sad. I really felt sad for his wife. Right. I remember the story. There's so many stories. Yeah. There's so many stories that he apparently very handsome. When I looked at the picture, she remembered him. She's like, isn't he handsome? I'm like, not my type, but it was cute who was so handsome. And, you know, he was a king or so powerful that he attracted a lot of women. And he had an affair and his wife, of course, is broken hearted. And there was just this room that she just stayed in because she was so broken hearted. And I just thought to myself, holy cow, you know, this day and age, we're like, we're getting divorced, right? It's over. But she just stuck with him because she just loved him so much. But then she had a room where 53:02 Kerry Newsome she grieved in and it's like, God bless her. You know what I mean? And so she had all these children that she had to keep up with and put on the show. But yet she was broken hearted through this whole thing. As we kind of getting close to literally when you're about to fly back to Saigon to meet up with your flight back home, we took you to Baloch and that was kind of, let's put it, let's put it out there, Vicki. That was kind of where things fell off the rails a little bit. We had you down to stay in a bungalow resort. I wouldn't call it a resort particularly, but it was supposed to be okay. But as it turned out, it wasn't okay, was it? So that kind of put it down on things. And that was the bit I was kind of most disappointed about. But maybe tell a little bit about that story because there's been so much good things. I don't want this one to be the last thing that people remember, if you know what I mean, because that was- Yeah, absolutely. And for the record, this was the only- Glitch. 54:08 Vicki Thai Let's say glitch. It was only glitch. And when I look back, this is not what I think of when I look back at our trip. And so we went to a little city in the suburb of Dalat named Bao Loc because my mom actually was born there. And so we wanted to see what it's all about, right? And it's an opportunity for her to go see where she grew up in her city and the main city part, where the commerce is, she remembers that very well. Where we stayed at, it's called the Danbury and- It's remote . It's an hour drive and it's through the forest, right? It's a beautiful drive, don't get me wrong, but it was very, very remote. And in its better days, it was actually kind of an amusement park, and there's a pond in it and so forth. So we get in, so we have two accommodations. My mom and I have separate rooms as normal. It was very basic. And when I say basic, I mean basic. It was a bed, an old blanket. And so we walked in and I was in my mom's room, thank God was in better condition than mine. I walked in, there was just this old blanket on this flat bed and there were these, there's stains on it. They were kind of sticky stains, which of course you avoid. And after coming from the accommodations in Saigon, our luxury cabin on the cruise in Mekong Delta and Dalat this was really an eyesore and it's drastically different. I don't think it was well-kept, maybe during COVID, as we spoke about, everything shut down and things got overlooked or fell through the cracks. But the bathroom, it was nothing I've ever seen before. And I hope I won't ever see again. I text one of our contacts at the travel agency and said, we want to get out of here as soon as possible, right? Because our tour guide and driver were expected to pick us up around 10 the next morning. They were there at 5.30. I said, still get out of here the better. Yeah. So I packed up my stuff at five in the morning, moved to my mom's bungalow and then our tour guides came around seven, which is perfect, right? And then we just got the hell out of Dodge. But would I recommend a Danbury? Probably not, right? 56:26 Kerry Newsome No, I won't be recommending it either. But it speaks to the contrast in Vietnam from the areas that are developed and obviously have more stringent controls around how they appear to tourists. But in some of these remote areas, it can be a bit of a lucky dip. And unfortunately, I guess to everyone listening, it's fair to say that some things are just out of your control. And thankfully, Vicki was able to handle it as best as you could. And I'm grateful for that. I just wish it didn't happen. I think it's something for people to double check when they're talking to their travel agents or they're questioning with me if they're talking about a particular area. I learned from it to be double checking these remote areas more so. I mean, you love the hotel, the new world you stayed at in Saigon. So I probably did the wrong thing. I set it up badly. See, I gave you all those beautiful places. And then you got there and you got to the flushing toilet place and you went what happened here? She steered me in the wrong direction. So let's not do that detour again. We will if we take you back to Dulat ever again, we'll keep you in Dulat and probably at Anna Mandara. So you'll have to do that hour drive. But that's funny talking about places out of Dulat. They are quite long drives to get the full benefit of being in that region. And it is hard to find places. That's why me stumbling on that Zen cafe chalet place was like, holy, this is like a little oasis in the middle of it all. And because there's just not that many of them that can sustain themselves that far out. So that's why everybody's in the city. And Dulat has grown exponentially in the last few years. It really wasn't even on the tourist maps for most people. 58:37 Vicki Thai They didn't even know about Dalat four years ago. We wouldn't have ever done if my mom didn't grow up there. Because I would probably pick the bigger cities. But yeah, it was our first trip. And I remember all I told you is this is where we definitely want to go because my mom grew up there. And you put the rest of the trip together, which was phenomenal. Because I would never have said, let's do the Mekong Delta. Because I've 59:04 Kerry Newsome never been there. I don't know. But the whole trip was phenomenal. If you had some tips for my listeners, like for their first time trip to Vietnam, what would they be and we can finish 59:18 Vicki Thai up on those? Sure. I would say do not overpack. Because I tend to always overpack. Just because like when we stay at a New World Hotel in Saigon, which was that is the hotel we'll stay at every single time because the service, the food, everything, it was beautiful, it was clean. It was central. They have cheap laundry. Like, you know, Kara, you and I discussed before our trip, I said, is there laundry service? And you even said, don't overpack, right? Because it's really easy. It's really cheap. And of course I overpacked. And you know, the laundry service was incredible. And it was very inexpensive. And even if you rush it, it's still inexpensive. And they bring it to your room, all folded and nice. It was amazing. Secondly, try everything. You want the experience, right? If you're coming from the US, you know, don't go to a KFC, even though I'm sure KFC is a little bit different, you know, in Vietnam, try the local foods. Go with what your tour guide recommends as you know, what we did is we asked our tour guide Tui, I said, I really wanted this, you know, congee, right? This jiupe, this rice soup. And I said, where is, where should we go? She took us to the one that she and her family always goes to. And it was delicious. It was amazing. And so, you know, trust your tour guides, right? And you know, something that and one of things that everyone talks about is, oh, it's a developing country. I hope I don't get sick, right? I eat something wrong. I hope I don't get sick. I tell you what, I didn't get sick once while we were there. And I basically ate everything I could get my hands on, just because I wanted to try everything. And so, you know, my thing is, don't be afraid to try new foods. Don't be afraid to go to different places. Because I remember when we went to the, where the VKONG, the war, I'm just like, I'm not a history buff. I don't even know where we're going. But it was an amazing experience, because that's part of the heritage. It's like, this is what they did to defend the country, right? They lived underground for years in these cramped little places, right? And then with this heat and everything. And so it's be open minded. Try everything. Trust your tour guides, right? Because I don't care what you say, you know, we talk about people who it's just a job with every single one of our tour guides and drivers. It was not that for them. They wanted to make sure that you were taken care of. You enjoy your time and you were safe, right? And, and you know, thirdly, go to Vietnam, you will not regret it. And since I've been back, everyone that I've spoken to, I have said, if you get a chance, go to Vietnam. And I know exactly who you could, you know, help book your trips. And then also the beauty of it. Yeah, exactly. And also the beauty of it too. Even if you don't know the language, your tour guide speaks English. So you're not, I would say go to Vietnam, try everything. And next time I go, I think, because I've seen so many beautiful dresses in the window, I'm going to go in and try on some dresses and find dress. But did you feel safe? Did you feel safe? Oh, I absolutely felt safe. Not for an instant. Regardless of where we're at, Mekong Delta, the lot fallout, right? Or Saigon. I never felt unsafe. Never. And, and, you know, it's just, you know, and like I said, the tour guides are there to take you around and to love their city, not to take you a place where you feel unsafe and you get robbed. Right? And so I say, trust it. I trust the process. Trust. This is what I'll tell you. If you took a trip to Vietnam, you will never regret it. And I'm 100% sure that you'd want to go back because there's so much more to see. 01:02:44 Kerry Newsome Vicki, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for being my client. Thank you for being understanding about our glitch. I'm just glad you had a good time. I'm glad your mum enjoyed it as well. And I just feel very lucky to have met you. If I didn't do this podcast and I wouldn't have got to meet you. So just want to thank you and, and for your time today. 01:03:05 Vicki Thai say thank you and, and for your time today. Thank you so much. Thank you for being so understanding with everything.

What About Vietnam S5-E18 Hanoi Below the Surface Kerry Newsome : Xin chào and welcome to What About Vietnam. My name is Kerry Newsome and I am your host. Hello to all my regular listeners. Thank you for joining me again and for your lovely notes of appreciation for the show and the work I put in here, a really heartfelt big double thank you. To my new listeners, it's great to have you on board. Please feel free to reach out to me anytime if you have any questions. Best way to do that is whataboutvietnamatgmail.com . Conversely, if you'd like me to put together a trip plan, simply go to the website whataboutvietnam.com. There's a travel request form there with all the details of what I provide for you. Simply fill in that form and send that through to me and we can begin that process. Today, however, we're going to be focusing on Hanoi. Why? I guess for many, the feedback is that Hanoi doesn't have a lot to offer. It's kind of a stepping point to other places. However, over time, I've really learned to love Hanoi and I've done that by engaging with and listening to different people and kind of looking at it from a Vietnamese's perspective. So, not as a tourist headset, but from their eyes as to how proud they are of their city and their heritage. And I'm going to get to do that with one Hanoian and her name is Ha. Sometimes she is called Hannah. And Ha has been a very big part of my understanding and my education to Vietnam, and in particular, Hanoi, and the heritage of Vietnamese. I think we can sometimes very quickly jump to, you know, Vietnam's just all about the Vietnamese War, or the American War, as it's sometimes referred to. However, there's just so much more to it, and I think you can sell it short; You're going to be wandering around the streets and seeing a real mix of, you know, chic cafes and boutiques and things like that. But then right alongside it, if you look up, you'll see very, very old buildings that belong to another part of history and another part of the heritage and the evolution of Vietnam. I want to tell you a little bit about Ha before we invite her on. Ha is co-founder of OCD Consulting, one of Vietnam's top management consulting firms. She's also the co-founder of a number of educational technology startups, including the popular one, OMT, and Kids Online. She serves on the advisory board of CFC Vietnam, which is an NGO that promotes children's right to education. She also leads projects funded by UNICEF. She's co-founder of the Vietnam Association of Non-Public Preschool Association, VANPPE. In 2021, she made a tiny step, as she calls it, writing a book about the generation of Vietnamese, the bridge generation of Vietnam from wartime to boom time under the guidance of her MBA professor and mentor, Dr. Nancy K. Napier. It's a great book and I'm going to put the link in the show notes that you can have a read if you wish. Ha received a BA in Linguistics from the Crimean Federal University and an MBA from Boise State University, where she's treasurer of the Vietnam Alumni Group. She lives with her family in Hanoi. Ha does a great job in this show to help us look under the surface of Hanoi and see it for its evolutionary process of growth and history. She will take us on a journey through its Christian background, what makes coffee so distinct, and the Doi Moi period. It will help guide you to a more refined and in-depth experience of what I consider to be one of Southeast Asia's most famous cities. Without further ado, let's welcome Ha to the program. Hello, Ha. Dau Thuy Ha ( Hannah): Hi, Kerry. Thank you for inviting me to your talk. And you can also call me Hannah, as you know very well. Kerry Newsome : I couldn't bring you this show without a brief update on the fallout from the devastating Typhoon Yagi. This super typhoon, one of the most devastating storms to hit Vietnam in decades, fell I think about the 7th of September. But as of the 19th, it still carries a rough death toll rising to I think about 226 in Vietnam alone. Look, the economic impact is staggering. Hanoi itself had thousands of residents been evacuated as the Red River reached its highest level in two decades. The flooding has been so severe, people are getting around and navigating on boats, et cetera, as the streets have turned into rivers. The typhoon Yagi, I guess, is a stark reminder of the increasing intensity of weather events, likely exacerbated by climate change. The climate in Vietnam is definitely changing and making it very hard for us people to offer advice on when is the best time to visit Vietnam. I have a link to Blue Dragon and UNICEF in the show notes if you'd like to donate to the appeal. Every dollar counts and it doesn't take much to make a big difference in Vietnam. I've asked her to just give a quick local update as she felt the full force of it in Hanoi over to Ha. Dau Thuy Ha ( Hannah): So my name is Ha for a reason. I was born and raised and have been living most of my life in Hanoi and Ha in Vietnamese language means river and Hanoi actually means inside the river and by the river we mean the Red River which covers Hanoi and we have a lovely dike system to protect the inside Hanoi, the capital of Vietnam, against the flooding that in the past happens every year, every summer and autumn time in the Red River. And indeed, Yagi was the biggest super typhoon that we had to experience during the last like 30 years. and it ravaged the northern part of Vietnam and especially schools and preschools in the northern provinces. Many places that are popular names to our tourists are actually badly damaged by Typhoon Yagi. Luckily, we Vietnamese are known as a resilient nation. We are a bunch of people who actually know that typhoons and landslides and natural disasters are kind of part of our life. So we are quick to rebuild things and I'm happy to say that my team and the educators, Vietnamese educators in other parts of Vietnam are quick to pool resources to help with the schools and preschools in the northern provinces. And we are going there this weekend to bring them money, actually cash, for them to rebuild the schools? Kerry Newsome: Yes. I mean, working with my team and managing my clients and their visits to northern Vietnam, the experiences and the feedback I'm getting is that pretty much everywhere in those northern districts for visitors has been restored. so that, you know, roads are now open again, Halong Bay is open again, and most of the hotels and resorts are fared pretty well. However, as you say, it is more the underprivileged areas, the areas where there are, you know, small communities, they are quite kind of off the beaten track, and yet those communities have suffered quite extensively with the landslides, etc. So, whilst the fury of the typhoon kind of hit around the 9th of September, it's still having an effect on those areas due to the landslides and the clean-up because after the flooding, as you would know, those areas kind of get left with a lot of debris and mess, et cetera, that requires a whole new rebuild. So, whilst essential services are back on and people have been able to get food and everyone has been able to rally which, as you say, Vietnam is very well known to do and to do quickly. I've had a little bit to do with some of the charities involved in those areas and I'm happy to say that a lot of work has been done and a lot of people have been saved. For people who, you know, who listen to me and listen to this program, I think they're probably more thinking about you know, is this going to be something that they need to be mindful when they're planning their trips to Vietnam? And you and I had a little chat before we even came on about climate change and how it is affecting the seasons and Vietnam's not the only country in the world affected by this. So whilst we say hand on heart that we don't think this is going to be conditional around the future, we don't know. We don't know what the future will hold. This is not customary for Hanoi at this particular time of the year. Well, certainly to my knowledge and You know, I only have 14 years. You have many more years experience, but in 14 years, this would be probably the supercharged typhoon that I've ever seen to hit Vietnam and have the devastation that it had. So, people, I think, yes, of course, in your planning, take the time of year into consideration, but don't let it, or don't let this particular event deter you to come to Hanoi and experience the North in the month of September as mostly it's about the beginning of the harvest season and it's a beautiful time of the year. So, let's see what 25 holds up, let's see how the future holds up, but I'm happy to take any questions or queries around your planning when you're considering your next trip. Moving on, the reason why I have been able to enjoy more my time in Hanoi and understand some of the places I visit, some of the food I eat, some of the sights that I get to see, is because I get to understand a little bit more about What lies below the surface of those places? What lies below the surface or the origin of that food I'm tasting? What is its history? Sometimes I think we can very easily think about Vietnam in terms of its wars. And whilst wars obviously bring extreme hardship and difficulties to the country, They are not the only forms of hardship that the country can experience and has experienced. And we're going to delve a little bit more into that with her, because there was some serious hardships that happened post-war. So, to begin with, I'm going to talk to Ha about some of the things that are her favorites in her city, and that begins with churches. And I'm going to throw it over to you now, Ha, because this was your idea, this subject, and I have to admit a lot of ignorance in really understanding churches and some of the ones that I do visit and that I love, but I'm going to throw it over to you to talk about the churches that you can visit in Hanoi. Dau Thuy Ha ( Hannah ): Sure, Kerry. So indeed, thank you for allowing me to start with my favorite topic. First of all, I have to declare that I'm actually not a Catholic. I'm not a Christian, which is good in a way that I have very fresh and hopefully unbiased view about the churches in Vietnam. I normally would joke that in my next life I won't become a Christian just because I love the very unique Catholic churches of the northern part of Vietnam so much. And I can safely say that with my travel, I spent years like six years in the former Soviet Union. So I traveled across Russia, Ukraine, so I understand and I have been to too many Orthodox churches. And then I went to the U.S. I understand and I have visited many Protestant churches. I was in Europe, I went to Catholic and Anglican churches and etc. And I went back home to Vietnam and I discovered that, okay, so I just also realized that Vietnam, among the Southeast Asia countries, I think we have the most unique, most interesting Catholic heritage, especially with concentration in the northern part of Vietnam. The birthplace of the Catholic Church in Vietnam is actually Nam Dinh and Ninh Binh provinces next door to Hanoi, right? And we have four basilicas, you know, Vatican-designated basilicas, two in the north and one in central Vietnam, and fourth in Ho Chi Minh City in Saigon. I will leave it to our visitors to find out because I won't give all the clues, but they are interesting because in many places you would be almost transposed to 18th century Europe, and you have a bit of that Europe preserved among the lush, you know, green paddy fields, rice fields of Vietnam. And you actually only need to go about 40 kilometers south of Hanoi to be there. to witness all of those. And in the territorial division of the Vietnamese Catholic Church, That area still reports, you know, still belongs to the Hanoi diocese. So to them, it is part of Hanoi, greater Hanoi. And the churches inside Hanoi, I have sent you some of my favorite shots of the Hanoi Cathedral and the other churches around Hanoi. They are so rich with history, and we are so very lucky that majority of them actually are well preserved. despite all the wars, the bombings, and et cetera. So I do hope that there would be more and more, you know, church-only tour to Hanoi and to the surrounding area. The next-door province to Hanoi, Nam Dinh , is not an average province in terms of size and population. And they have close to 700 churches, Catholic churches, beautiful, dotted in almost like every village. So you travel on a van, on a car, on every road in Nam Dinh province, and you look left, you see churches. You look bright, you see also… Unbelievable! Unbelievable! Kerry Newsome : I did not know that! Dau Thuy Ha ( Hannah): And they are so beautiful! No, that's why we do want to have tours for church lovers, Catholic and non-Catholic, but church lovers, because they are so rich, so well-reserved. The people are so welcoming. You ask them one question and they will answer you with, you know, with lots of stories. Going to see the churches of the northern part of Vietnam is going to be a super interesting, exciting, and surprising find for everybody. The stories behind them are so rich, so interesting. The whole basilica was built in an original swamp, and the parishioners actually pulled everything they had, and they actually built hardwood floors for the whole area, just to keep the church to be like century solid, staying on in a swamp area. That's incredible. I also don't know whether there are any other places in the world that people would do that kind of thing. And that is a designated basilica. It's belonging to the Hanoi diocese. It's Khe So Basilica, 40 kilometers south of Hanoi. So things like that, all the monasteries in Ninh Binh, it's just like you are stepping into German Gothic area, and then nearby are all Vietnamese rice fields. So it's very kind of unique. And I have been to churches in China, in other countries around here. You don't really have that concentration and the kind of density of both. Catholic Church's presence and history behind that. So I'm only, I won't leave it at here because I think people would want to find out more themselves. Just like me, when I started to discover the Vietnamese Catholic Churches around me. So start with Hanoi Cathedral, going to Co Ba Cathedral, and you go further, and I really hope, Kerry, that you will be introducing more and more specific, you know, Vietnamese Catholic tours to the churches? Kerry Newsome : I've never thought to seek out other than one or two of the main ones, as you pointed out, the Cathedral in Hanoi and obviously the Pink Church in Saigon. That would be it. That would be the full stop after those two. When you say there are up to 700 That just blows me away because I think for people to understand, once again, that Vietnamese have a Christian or a Catholic background to them, other than Confucian and also Buddhist, that's a little bit of a revelation, I think, that everyone listening would be going, well, I never thought of Vietnam as having that kind of heritage. So, it's wonderful to know this. The expansiveness of Vietnam just continues to blow me away. But I think what we'll do, Hannah, what we'll do is we'll put some links in the notes for everyone so that they can do a little bit of an investigation. And certainly for anyone that is interested in this in more detail, happy to take your inquiries and I will certainly put some tours together so that I can get you to those places, so feel free for that. Can we move on a little bit now and just understand a little bit more about that below the surface Hanoi and get to another subject that you and I both enjoy, which is coffee, and enjoying a lovely coffee in Hanoi would have to be one of my must-do recommendations for anyone in Vietnam. But maybe let's talk about some of the origins of coffee, where it stands in the world as a coffee producer, and then, of course, the fascination around egg coffee. Because, once again, people don't really understand the origin of egg coffee and how it came to be in the first place. So share away. Dau Thuy Ha ( Hannah): Yes, so we continue on the C letter. And so after church, of course, my second obsession is coffee. I have to say that I'm lucky on two fronts. So first of all, Vietnam has been for, I think for the last, at least last 15 years to be the number two world exporter of coffee to the world. We are only behind Brazil in terms of coffee volume export. Vietnam is a grower of Robusta coffee mostly. That's why you don't really see Vietnam like single origin coffee in coffee specialty shops because majority of Robusta coffee goes into like… mass coffee, like instant coffee. So Nestle is one of the biggest importers of Vietnamese Robusta coffee. We also have Arabica coffee. And why I'm saying I'm lucky on two fronts, because first of all, we are a major coffee country, coffee producer country. And my father is one of the earliest Northern Vietnamese coffee export. So when, during the war, we actually have We have North Vietnam and South Vietnam. Majority of the Vietnam coffee production area are actually in Central Highland where Da Lat and Lam Dong and Dak Lak and it used to belong to so-called South Vietnam. My father is a Northern Vietnamese and in Vietnam we only grew Arabica coffee, more acidic but more fragrant, more aromatic coffee, which lower yield, higher value. And Hanoi coffee, even during the very hard days where we didn't really have much to eat, coffee shops were there everywhere. We had to recycle coffee, right? You know that Vietnam, we drink coffee the French way. We use the French drift and we put like two teaspoon full of coffee into the drift and then you pour hot boiling water on it. And so… It drips. It drips, yes. And if you only had a little bit of coffee and you want to have coffee aroma like in the morning and then in the afternoon and also on the second day, then you actually recycle that coffee in that little coffee drip, like a lot of time. It's very strong. The first drip would be strong, the second and the third, not so much. But since we want to, we had to save them, we actually would recycle it. Like me, I would be drinking, when I was small, I would be drinking the third round There are nostalgic coffee shops like the Coop Cafe chain which started in northern Hanoi actually. This is Coop. So C-O-O-P. How do you say it? Cộng means actually, it actually is a short for Cộng sản, which is communist. So communist style coffee. And you go into those coffee shops and you see the Vietnamese military. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, they all wear the similar clothes and there's a lot of propaganda posters. Dau Thuy Ha ( Hannah): Yes, yes, because it's nostalgic of the time when we actually drank those refueled coffee. But it's part of the joy that we had. It's a very big change. It is a big chain, successful. They are now in Vietnam, Malaysia, Korea, Canada. I think they just opened one in Toronto. Maybe next to Tim Hortons. There is a reason, there is a history that we associate with coffee and that's why coffee and the likes are popular. But then we also have egg coffee, which you mentioned, and Hanoi is the origin of egg coffee, and you tried egg coffee the other time you were in Hanoi, and I think you mentioned that it's Of course, you had reservation. You said, how do the egg flavor would go with coffee flavor? And would it be like a little bit too strange a combination? Too sweet and et cetera, right? Yeah. But there is a reason that it didn't, like if it is just a concoction, then it must like pass away long time ago. But it stay on, it became kind of thing by itself because there is a recipe that actually makes it very possible and very kind of interesting. Some people, it's like durian, some people won't want to have the second cup of egg coffee but if you are addicted to it then you actually look forward to the time when you are back in Hanoi And in the cool autumn time, like September, October, November, right? And you sit in those Hanoian, old French colonial-style small houses, and you saw that the barista was very carefully making it for you. So, okay, egg coffee, there is one whole corner of the internet about the origin and all the speculation of theories about it, so please go and find out, but egg coffee is indeed a very quintessential Hanoian thing. Next, to add coffee, I would recommend newcomers to visit some neighborhood coffee because that is where they can experience how an authentic Hanoian would go to have their morning coffee. In the past, we read newspapers, now we read the news on our smartphones, but it's the same thing over the same cup of coffee. Kerry Newsome : My understanding, just before we jump from egg coffee, because you won't believe how many times people ask me about the origin of egg coffee. As I understand, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was to understand that egg coffee originally came about when there was a time in Vietnam, in hardship, where it was very difficult to get any kind of milk. So, to replace the milk or to replace where you had tinned milk or you had condensed milk, which you sometimes use, they or someone decided that they might try egg as a replacement to make the coffee. And then, because as it turned out, it tasted very good, it kind of caught on and has become this very, very quintessential Hanoian Vietnamese thing to try. But for everyone, I think that's the origin. Am I close? Dau Thuy Ha ( Hannah ): You are very close indeed. So two things is true, indeed. The northern Vietnamese way to drink coffee is actually with condensed milk, which is just a little bit of milk, but a lot of sugar. Yeah, a lot of sugar. A lot of sugar. And that's why the Vietnamese traditional, like old-style coffee is both strong on the coffee side and too sweet on the sugar side. And it doesn't make foam. So we, in the past, we didn't have fresh milk and we can't do milk with a very nice looking froth. Like a cappuccino. Yes, that's indeed. The next best alternative to it is egg. And I think it caught on because we do have nice chicken eggs every day and it was not difficult to find out even during the war time. So it caught on. But the claim to fame of egg coffee of Hanoi is that it is still very difficult to make it. As you can see, there are not many egg coffee shops around, even in Hanoi, because it is an art to make an egg coffee. I can't do it myself and not many baristas can do it. So there are only a few places and they are very well trained. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, do you remember the place we went to when we were doing the filming for VTV4? So, just a shout out to VTV4. We did a day filming where I got to spend a whole day with her and we went around Hanoi and talked about lots of things. But that particular place, and I think I've got a link and a photo and I'll share with everyone, They had been doing it for a very long time, am I right? Like 60 years. Yes, about 60 years. I was truly gobsmacked how tasty it was because as you would expect with egg coffee or people that profess to sell that type of coffee, there will be good and bad practitioners of this. But this particular shop, I've had egg coffee before, but It never left me with any wow feeling where having it at that coffee shop, you would not know about that place. It's quite hidden. It's quite old. Once again, it is below the surface of Hanoi. That's one of the places that you would definitely have to seek out to find. But wow, it was just amazing. I can hand on heart say that that would be the best egg coffee I have ever had. Dau Thuy Ha ( Hannah): That's Cafe Giang, and indeed, we won't give you more details because we are talking about Hanoi below the surface, so a lot for you to discover yourself, right? Everything in Hanoi is about a little bit of discovery for a population of 100 million in Vietnam. In total, Vietnam has over 500,000 coffee shops and the majority of them would be in big cities like in Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh City and Da Nang. So I don't have a specific data or statistics on how many coffee shops we have in Hanoi, but I trust it's a lot. Another unique feature of Hanoi that you don't really see in many places, especially you don't really see them in Ho Chi Minh City or southern part of Vietnam, is those collective living quarters . In Vietnamese, we say khu tap the. So khu means quarter, tap means area and Thê, Thê means collective, so collective living quarters. Those are actually now, by now, a little bit shabby looking areas, but that is where, and because they have been along for like 60 or 50 years, some of the oldest living quarters, collective living quarters in Hanoi, Kim Lien and Trung Tu, they were built, actually they was built in the 60s of the last century, so 60 years old. But the community, the vibe of everybody together there are still so strong now, just as before, because the people who live there, They have been there like four generations and they have kids going together to kindergarten and schools all together, doing their daily shopping, groceries in the same wet market next door and enjoying the coffee shops all together, all at the same time. And so there are underground arts coming out from those living quarters. Interesting stuff is happening there. So I also recommend if visitors to Hanoi If they want really to deep dive below the surface, they go to Chung Tu or Kim Lien Collective Living Quarters, explore those older buildings, but with huge, big trees around, because those trees were also planted like six years ago, seeing people going around and going into some of the shops around there, which is quite like, still some of those things can remind you of the old time Hanoi, like before Đổi Mới. Kerry Newsome : When you start to peel back the onion of Vietnam's history, you start to appreciate some of the most influential transition periods for the Vietnamese people. These go well beyond the hardships and recovery from what's known as the American War. Let's take a look at 1986, when a series of new reforms called Doi Moi were introduced. Ha is going to share with us how this period played out for her as a young woman in Vietnam, and how it shaped the country we're visiting today. These reforms had a profound impact on modern Vietnam, and understanding them helps us see the country in a whole new light. The Doi Moi period in Vietnam refers to kind of a series of economic reforms. It was a plan to raise a socialist-oriented market economy. And there's various key points about Doi Moi, and I'll put a link in the notes so that you can better understand it. But when you're walking around the buildings and you're getting a feel for the country, And in particular in Hanoi, it's more pronounced, I think, in Hanoi, you're going to register that this period is played out in how the Vietnamese adapted, how they adapted their economy, their way of business, their attitude, their thinking, their choices, their education, their entrepreneurship. It flavored everything. It changed everything. And I think this is what's going to give you some insight into Hanoi that without it you just might not get it. Anyway, Ha does a better job of it than me. So let's welcome Ha to talk about the Doi Moi period. Ha, this period of Doi Moi I know is a time in your life which was extremely influential in how it paved the rest of your life, I guess. So maybe talk to us about the Doi My period and then how that played out and how it plays out in Vietnam today. Dau Thuy Ha ( Hannah): Indeed, so for my generation, Đổi Mới is totally, you know, life-changing. We started our education and became like teenagers and then young adults under the centrally planned economy where like the government took care of everybody, took care of our education, they will allocate a job for us, you know, so that, and then you would expect to work for the government your lifetime, and then you would be given a salary, you know, subsidized housing and everything. Your children's education will be taken care of by the government. Of course, it doesn't happen it doesn't increase our productivity. Actually, it was like the opposite, but the expectation is that, okay, you just need to be an obedient citizen and the government will take care of everything for you. So we grew up with that kind of mindset and mentality and boom. The socialist bloc was dissolved when I was in my final years of university in Crimea in the former Soviet Union. And when I graduated and went home and then the Ministry of Education at that time almost like told us that, sorry, we are not going to do job allocation, employment allocation for you because there is no such thing no longer. you are now free to do whatever you want to do. But then we didn't know what we want to do because there was only a very nascent private sector and market economy in Vietnam at that time. And majority of us Northerners were very scared because that is something totally new to us, totally uncharted waters. We didn't know about market economy. We were taught all the time that capitalism is a bad thing. It's like people exploiting people. Some people got very rich and rest would become like living slaves, that kind of thing. Now it's funny to think about that, but it was like that during the late 1980s, right? Yeah, but I think Vietnam, as in many cases, we are a rather resourceful bunch of people. We said, okay, this is our life. We have to take care of our life. You know, central planning or market economy or whatever, we will figure out how to do that, right? So the first thing that majority of us, so-called young professional or young intellectual found out that, okay, now we need to switch from learning Russian language to English language, right? Because rest of the world do not do business or do not like work with Russian language. They actually prefer English language. So suddenly English language became like a very popular Skill. Skill, yeah. And like language centers, the English language center started to emerge everywhere and everybody was doing their beginner certificate in English proficiency, yeah. And I think Vietnam was able to turn around very fast at that time. And it has to start with the mindset. And I think we, I really, I am very appreciative of the leadership of the country at that time. They were all communist party members. And they said, okay, now we have to do our version, Vietnamese version of communism. Which is very funny. So, our key leaders actually reached out to Singapore, to neighboring countries, saying that, sorry, we did not pay too much attention to you in the past, but now we want to know how you do your economy, how you help your nation. uplift your nations out from poverty. We want to learn from you. I think we did it in a rather sincere way. That's why Senior Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore agreed to become a a special advisor to the government of Vietnam in 1993, and he was one for a long time, and we did really listen to our neighbor's advices, and I think we did it in a very decisive manner, and so we were able to resume normal relationship with the U.S., with the United States of America, which used to be the enemy of Vietnam for so long during the war. During late 1995 and 1996, we started to have the U.S. Embassy in Hanoi and now we don't, we didn't have to go to Bangkok to get a visa to the United States, and I was among some of the earliest batch of Vietnamese students to do an MBA in America. Kerry Newsome : To study, yes, in U.S. Dau Thuy Ha ( Hannah): Yeah, in an American university. And we were then really shown how capitalism actually works. And we said, okay, so capitalism actually has its own merits, and it actually could work in many other different settings. There is a… you know, like a real road for us forward. And that is what we covered in our book, you know, the story of people, individuals, Northern Vietnamese like me, in the Bridge Generation book, you know, how we, as an individual, as a smaller, you know, communities, we embrace that kind of doi moi, which means renovation. Actually, it's a big transition from our mindset to make the kind of future we want to have, first for ourselves, and then for our community and our country. And it reflects in cities like Hanoi, right? Kerry Newsome: And I think for everyone, if I can give, and I hope you'll permit me to give my understanding and how it actually plays out in your visit and when you start to travel around Vietnam, that you will see and you will notice very quickly the old next to the new almost everywhere. So you'll see a building that is 50, 100 years old right next to a brand new cafe. you will notice in the streets still the occasion of flower vendors and sometimes people think they're a little bit lost in time, that they are still peddling, I guess, their wares the way they would have done years ago and then all of a sudden you'll see a Mercedes car drive past and you know, sometimes that contrast just, you know, blows you away. But it's because the speed in which Doi Moi, and it changed the, as I understand, the mindset of Vietnamese to have to quickly adapt from And this is actually out of the book, No Choice Soup to Choice Soup, where unconditionally people were then allowed to explore their own futures, their own education, their own entrepreneurship, and this is where the growth spurt went berserk. in my opinion. It just, like, shot up. Because I can remember my very, very first visit to Vietnam was, like, back in 2007. And even then, I was like, this is still a country a long way away from terms of living standards and entrepreneurship and even curiosity. You know, Vietnamese were not intrinsically educated to be curious. they were educated to accept the status quo and not question. So then all of a sudden, the book was open and through Doi Moi, as Ha was a gifted student and she was able to apply her intellect and her discipline to venture further to be able to explore education even in the US and with other Western partners to be able to, you know, today she has a startup business and has had successful businesses in the past. That would never have happened without Doi Moi. Am I like, am I close to explaining it to people because this has taken me a while to get my head around over the years. Dau Thuy Ha ( Hannah): Indeed, you are very to the point on that and I think For visitors to Vietnam, if they can add that kind of curiosity to understand or to see a country so fast changing itself over the last 50 years, it would add to much more interesting angles to their two days visit to Hanoi and maybe two days in Hoi An and then two days in Ho Chi Minh City, right? So indeed, your first time to Hanoi in 2007, that was the year when Vietnam was admitted to the World Trade Organization, to the WTO, and that is where our economy would actually start to take off because we would be able to integrate whatever industries and exports that we have to the global economy. And that is, indeed, you were witnessing the start of the take off of the Vietnam so-called boom time. Before 2007, we tried and we did what is needed to do, but it's mostly still, you know, like one-sided efforts from Vietnam. But when we were admitted to the World Trade Organization, it is bilateral and then multilateral. And now Vietnam is among some of the few countries in the world that has so many free trade agreements, FTAs. I think by now we have 17 17 FTAs with many countries and regions in the world so that Vietnamese products can be exported and also we can import things from other countries to Vietnam. So I think as an Australian, now you go to Vietnam, you see so many Australian stops around in every, even neighborhood, stores and corners, right? I saw, so I saw, I now have Australian beef in my refrigerator. I have Australian butter, I can buy Hanukkah honey from New Zealand, also in the nearby store and etc. Australian wine is everywhere. And the Australian trade office in the Australian embassy are having, you know, like really fun time introducing even some very unique Australian products to Vietnamese market. All of that did not happen, you know, like 15 years ago. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and let me share just also the diversification into food because a lot of people consider Vietnamese as still only focusing on their own cuisine. That couldn't be further from the truth. Now you can go to Vietnam and enjoy Greek, Italian, The Four P’s group have promoted very well their pizzas. The opportunity to have really quality Japanese, Korean, it is especially in the major cities, probably predominantly in the major cities. But that diversification is part of the origin of this came from free trade and that opening opportunity. I think the sad part for me is I can remember in early years when I used to come to Vietnam, people used to think I was brave, that I was venturing to Vietnam because it was still unknown to the rest of the world. It had been a closed book, and it had not allowed itself or had not shared with the world really very much about itself. It was still known as Vietnam, and Vietnam was just known as a war. That was the only word that was attributed to the country name. which was sad, very, very sad. But very quickly that has come to change. But even today, even today, I will get people that will think that Vietnam is a third world country. that they will think that they're coming to some primitive place that, you know, they're not going to have the facilities or, you know, some areas of it are going to be so primitive that they're going to have to, you know, be wary of. And, you know, that's in health standards, sanitization, quality of accommodation, English speaking places, all of that. So, it is a bit of a revelation, but I'm happy to say that it's very much a country on the move, I call it. It's continually evolving. I'm mindful of the time, and I'm just wanting to see where we're going with this to make sure that we cover the real key points that we wanted to feature in this show. So, is there anything else we should be adding here that we haven't covered so far that you'd like to? Dau Thuy Ha ( Hannah): I just want to encourage visitors to not worry about the facilities and the convenience that they won't have in Hanoi. I think they would be very amazed that the internet and free Wi-Fi are almost everywhere in the city, right? All the coffee shops would offer you free Wi-Fi unconditionally, for example, right? And we have some of the highest literacy level in the world. facilities and everything are there. And it's a safe country. It's so safe, except for the traffic jam that we have. Otherwise, we are really safe, right? And Hanoi is indeed some of the most interesting place for visitors to discover, because it is a big enough city, we have close to 10 million people living in the greater Hanoi area. And it has such a long history, right? We, as a city, we are like over 1,000 years old. And the legacy that we have, we have the biggest, the strongest French colonial legacy in all Southeast Asia. And that has to do with all the Catholic churches, the French legacy in architecture and culture around Hanoi. So it makes Hanoi really a hidden charm, something for visitors to discover. Hanoi is so different, so standing out. Even in Southeast Asia, we are very different. And that is the beauty of it. We talk a little bit about below the surface, but below the surface is for each of us to discover, right? And I would like to end our discussion today on that note. Hanoi is for you to discover below the surface. And every time you come, you discover a little bit more below the surface, and it is exciting. Kerry Newsome: I thank you so much, Ha, for coming on. I really relish the time with you to be able to explore these things. I think that we could probably do another show and talk about other things like, you know, the history behind Bun cha, the history behind Bia Hoi, All of those things are, for you as a tourist, I really encourage you to do some research, do some investigation, because that first drop of Bia Hoi will mean so much more, as you will understand the origins. Having delicious bun cha once again that will resonate with your taste buds and you'll go, I can understand why they appreciated this. Because also, the thing we haven't touched with Hanoi is it can get quite cold and that's where the heartiness of some of the food comes from because just to keep people warm, the warm broths and the thickness of the broths, etc., is very much part of their history and belongs to their background. I'm going to leave it there now. I want to say thank you again for coming on the show. Dau Thuy Ha ( Hannah): Thank you, Kerry and thank you, everyone, for tuning in to our discussion. So as a Hanoian, I would like to welcome you to Hanoi, and indeed, we hope to have more chances to speak to you about food, about the other interesting, below-the-surface things of Hanoi. Till then, bye-bye, Kerry.

What About Vietnam - S5-E6 Explore the ‘Land of Lychees’ – Bac Giang with a return traveller to Vietnam Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. I'm very excited today to actually bring back a guest I spoke to back in June 2021. Now that's when we weren't able to go anywhere. But my guest, Jessie Pearlman, was sitting in Hanoi and I was really keen to talk to him at the time because he'd been to a place called Mu Cang Chai and he is a wonderful photographer and I had been following him on his Instagram page and I just fell in love with his photos and his stories and he came on the show and he's been a really big hit with you. So I asked him to come back on, and he's sitting in his home in Massachusetts, I think, in the U.S., and we're going to be talking to him, believe it or not, again about his return trip to Vietnam. So, let's welcome Jesse to the program. Great to have you on the show. Jesse Pearlman: Pleasure to be here, Kerry Kerry Newsome: Well, we're going to be talking about something that I am totally naive to. And so you're going to be educating me as well as everyone listening. And we're going to be talking about the lychee or the lychee festival, which is something that I think was the trigger for you to go back. But maybe for everyone, before we get into that in detail, Maybe give us a quick recap since you came back to the US after our last recording and what you've been doing in between time Like Jesse Pearlman: I said pleasure to be coming back to the podcast. I love talking about traveling specifically in Vietnam, so It's always great. I Came home about a month after we last spoke on air and After that, I've just been in school getting a master's degree in order to teach ESL. I think there are a lot of teachers who go to Asia to teach, and I think they kind of end up not really caring about the job itself, which is fine because it's what an opportunity it is to just be able to be born speaking English and be able to teach that. For whatever reason, I really loved the job. And I loved it from the first second I did it. When I landed in Korea, felt totally unprepared. First day I walked in the classroom, just kind of felt good. I felt at ease. And I've always loved working with children. So I'm going to be an ESL instructor here in a town in Massachusetts. One of the large portion of the ESL speakers that come in through this district are Vietnamese. So looking forward to working with them and their families. And they're Southern Vietnamese, so they probably wouldn't be able to understand my terrible Northern Vietnamese, especially because I'm not very good at pronouncing it. But either way, I'm looking forward to it. Kerry Newsome: That's exciting. And good on you for taking the job. you know, seriously and wanting to put your best foot forward in that space. And I think in Vietnam, especially, the country is developing and becoming, I guess, a little bit more sophisticated in that area and wanting people of a really good caliber to come into the country if they're going to teach. And I think that's just terrific. Now, I want to get into some detail with you, and I know you've got lots to share. So you decided to go back to Vietnam just very recently. What was the real motivation for you wanting to go back? Jesse Pearlman: To see my friends, to see all my Vietnamese friends. When I lived in Korea before I came to Vietnam, All of my friends were pretty much foreigners. So I played in a foreigner baseball league. I was in this hiking group that was foreigners for the most part. And I wouldn't say I integrated very well with the host culture of Korea. But when I moved to Vietnam, the first place I lived was a very small city called Yen Bai city in the province that Mu Cang Chai , Yen Bai province. And there weren't a lot of foreigners in general, maybe three in the whole place. I just, all my friends were Vietnamese. A lot of them were, some of them were my, a lot of them were my students who were adults, but a lot of them also were just people that kind of just came up and talked to me because they knew English and others were people who didn't speak English. And we kind of communicated via Google translate a lot of the time. And then of course I made my friends in Mu Cang Chai who were Hmong. But moving to Hanoi, you know, definitely met more foreigners there, but still a lot of there were a lot of really nice people at work who I became friends with. So my point is, is I was planning on coming back to Vietnam the second I came back to America, like I was, as soon as I as soon as the borders opened, and as soon as COVID was okay. And as soon as I had the money and time, it was going to happen. I had the trip planned. for the two years. Kerry Newsome: It's really funny you say that because I've spoken to so many people who have said the only way to get over any feeling of, I don't know, despair, loss, grief when you leave the country that, you know, is to plan the next trip. That's the only way to recover from that feeling when you get back. And I know it kills me when I get home to resettle back into Australia as much as I love my country. But yeah, I have to be planning the next trip. Thankfully, what I do allows me to do that. Jesse, let's talk about what month you went to in this trip, in this new trip you did and kind of where you first landed and where you're headed to because I think that's going to be of particular interest to everyone listening. Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, absolutely. My trip was mostly in the North because that's where I lived and I also feel quite intrigued by the north. The south is really nice for beaches. But you know, if obviously you're familiar, I'm sure all listeners here on the program are familiar with the, the geography of Vietnam gets so thin, there's not a lot of action going on, like in terms of mountains, and there are some but it's not like in the north, it just really opens up. So yeah, I flew into Hanoi. and just, you know, recalibrated and stayed in Truc Bach Lake. That's the place where I lived when I was living in Hanoi. It's very beautiful. To the American listeners, it's the place where John McCain's plane was shot down, and he became one of the first prisoners of war in the American-Vietnam War. Anyway, from there, I really came to Vietnam in June, which I think you asked earlier. That was the month that I went. I knew it was going to be hot, but I planned it, one, because I'm a teacher, I had to work around that schedule, but two, because I wanted to go to see the rice planting in Mu Cang Chai, which we talked about in a previous podcast, and then also the lychee harvest in Bac Giang. That's a district or, excuse me, that's a province about two and a half hours north of Hanoi. I want to say it might even be northeast of Hanoi. Um, pretty much just take the highway to get there at first. And then there are some not fun roads on the way to this particular village. Uh, the way I'll pronounce it is I'll just try to pronounce it in a, in a way it was very tough to pronounce this word in Vietnamese, but it's, L-U-C and then N-G-A-N, Luc Ngan. And it's this little district within the province that has kind of been designated since the late 1980s as the place where lychees are harvested. Lychee, lychee, what have you, those fruits that are incredibly juicy, have a pit in the middle. Some people even call them lychee nuts. And they have that bright red, almost like alligator skin coating on them. And this is the place if you enjoy this fruit and if you enjoy tropical fruit, rare fruit, this is the place to go. And I got the whole, I got really the whole tour of all the experiences you could have and I'm We'll definitely dive into that in a moment, but that was what I really wanted to see, funnily enough. Like that was my, that was one of my big goals of this trip. Kerry Newsome: So we're talking June and we're talking a trip by design to basically head straight for Bac Giang. Jesse Pearlman: That's a great question. It was just a two or three day trip. Honestly, I did it in about 24 hours and it was very doable. I think if you are a tourist who just kind of wants to have a little bit more time to just take things all in and you don't want to feel like you're constantly packing and moving, a two-day trip would be nice. I'm sure there's some other aspect. I know, for instance, they have a lake around that area. However, the weather is hot. I just think that it's a really nice trip you can do out of Hanoi for about one or two days And just get this experience that really has not been treated to a lot of tourists, even Vietnamese tourists. I would say a lot of them were surprised that that was a thing that I wanted to do. And I think the reason I wanted to do it was one, because I love lychees, but two, really for the photography and for the photos of these, these men and women bringing in you know, hundreds and kilos of lychees on the back of their motorbikes all at the same time to the morning market to have them shipped off to the countrywide, uh, to places like Japan and Korea, China in huge, massive amounts, the United States in massive amounts. And, uh, I mean, 180,000 tons of lychees are harvested each year in Bac Giang . It's the biggest. output in the country and they're one of the main countries that supply lychees to the world. Kerry Newsome: It's phenomenal, isn't it? I've seen the photos or some photos of the motorbikes absolutely chock-a-block all together coming down the street, etc. full to the brim with the lychees, or leeches as we figured out. We don't know which one is the right way to say it. I don't know. We'll just go with it anyway. But like 180,000 tons, that is definitely a lot of lychees. Tell us, Jessie, you said that you took the road, it's two and a half hours out of Hanoi. Did you do that by bike or did you decide to take a tour? What would you suggest for everyone to actually get out to this district is the best way, especially for new tourists? Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, I guess for new tourists, if you are not comfortable on a motorbike, I would not take it. There was a lot of highway driving. It rained the whole time. So I had to go very slow and pull over multiple times. And after the major highway, the road was unpaved and therefore there were puddles, it was going up and down. I would definitely suggest, depending on your level of motion sickness, either taking a bus or taking a private car. Private cars, and they call them transfers, are really readily available in Vietnam. I mean, any quick search will bring you to a company that, yes, they have set tours, but you can call them and ask them, I want you to just drive me to this place. You can pay for someone, pay extra for someone that can speak English who drives, or it can just be a person who drives that speaks Vietnamese. They still tend to be very friendly and wonderful people regardless. That's how I would suggest getting there. I think my motorbike experience, and this is someone who loves riding motorbikes, was not that pleasant. I did not enjoy the ride. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and I think it's important to kind of mention this because I have a lot of listeners that are really comfortable on bikes and, you know, have really traversed the country on motorbikes and done very well. But they are experienced riders in their own countries. I get nervous when I hear about or people are talking about, you know, just hiring a motorbike and off they go on a scooter and off they go when, you know, the roads in some areas are okay, but for long distances, the combination of weather and then when the road goes, you know, muddy and potholes and sometimes chock-a-block with traffic. I know that, you know, sometimes going around Ha Giang, that, you know, people have said you've got to queue in traffic to do the loop. So, you know, it's something to consider, but making sure that when you're considering this, you're getting the best advice possible for the locality that you're going into. Jesse Pearlman: I completely agree. And I think that the motorbiking thing is no joke in Vietnam. The number one death cause is motorbiking in Vietnam. So yeah, it's a huge situation. I think for people who are not advanced motorbikers, they should not take it with that. And people who are, my argument would just be it wasn't fun. Like I love driving my motorbike up through big passes, big mountain passes, but this was really bumpy and the traffic therefore was quite bad because of the unpaved roads. So I would definitely recommend taking either a bus or a A private car would be even better because it'll make the traffic feel a lot better. Kerry Newsome: I must admit, I'm a girl that's kind of built for comfort, not speed, so I definitely go with the private car option. Jesse Pearlman: My girlfriend agrees, by the way. When she came to visit me, she came for one of the weeks I was in Vietnam. She came from Massachusetts. She's a doctor, left America, came back, worked the next day. When she came back, she's an absolute trooper. But I was there for about a week with me, and yeah, it was private transfers all the way for both of us. That's what she told me. Kerry Newsome: Jessie, let's just talk a little bit about accommodation before we get into what you experienced around the Lychee's. Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, so I reached out to a woman who I worked with, I think I mentioned earlier. I had some friends from work, and she was from Bac Giang and she lived close to this Lychee area, and she was almost my in. Because if you look up lychee harvest in Pakistan, there's a lot of articles that are more or less just pumped out by the government. They use this word very liberally, the term propaganda. There's not as negative connotation with that word in Vietnam. So they write these articles just being like, yeah, this place is great. Look at how awesome we're doing with how much lychees we're picking. But there aren't a ton of blogs about people going there. So it was difficult for me to just figure out, do I just go? Like, I have my motorbike. I know where the place kind of is. I can just figure it out myself. I still reached out to someone who then put me in touch with a woman who actually runs a tour service in Luke Nunn for the Leeches and other tropical, other nice fruits that they grow. Once I was able to get in touch with that woman, it was actually quite difficult because of the language barrier. But once again, we are living in an era where we have this technology to be able to speak with each other and then translate our sentences. And Google Translate for Vietnamese is really good. I don't know if you ever had anybody talking about that on the podcast before. communication with locals and stuff. Google Translate is pretty awesome. It works quite well. We were able to communicate that way. Basically, she booked a hotel for me and then met me at the hotel when I arrived. The hotel was in the town where one of the markets takes place. It's probably a 10-kilometer stretch of where the orchards are and also where the markets are. But this is one of the main ones. And it was Luke Nunn Town. So she met me there. And then through Google Translate, just kind of said to me, hey, why don't you go shower and get ready? My husband will pick you up at 6.30. We're going to have dinner at our place. So I had already gotten excited, had Vietnamese dinners before with local families, and they're incredible. But this one was more than I ever could have imagined. It turns out that they live in this, or at least where their restaurant place was, was this grand outdoor place. And, you know, there were the fountains all over the place, large rocks with insignia. It was very, it was designed in a way that reminds me of kind of the Northern Vietnamese design. And there were various gazebos within the nature, flowers growing all over the place. And yeah, they just treated me to this dinner. I mean, obviously it came within the price of the tour, but yeah, we had this dinner that was expansive with some of the best stuff, you know, deep fried pork. You know, slow roasted pork and duck and then some really like some specialties from the region. Of course, all the leeches. At one point through the meal, the dad just took me with him and we walked outside their property across the street. And there were these men. It was raining. It was nighttime. They had full reindeer on and and flashlights on their head. And they were just harvesting leeches. And the guy talked to him and just said, hey, could you give some to my friend? And they just gave me fresh off the tree leeches. And that was a little sneak preview of what was to come. Kerry Newsome: We'll make sure that we put any contact with this lady in the show notes for people. So if you want to do this, you can reach out directly. Did she have a Facebook page or something like that? Because most people do. Jesse Pearlman: She had a Facebook page. So this is what's tricky about traveling in Vietnam. She had a Facebook page and most Vietnamese people are, are using Facebook and some people, however, especially it's kind of an older fashion thing is they're really, and actually maybe it's not because we do it in America. They're very phone based. They, they want your phone number and they want to text you and they want to call you. So the best way that people reach her and in a lot of these small businesses in Vietnam is they call. And that's out of the question for me. So, uh, I'm not going to be able to hold, I can speak a little Vietnamese, but I can't hold the phone conversation. I mean, just your ability to listen over the phone and the quality, quality, sound quality is important. So it's hard to understand them. And so, uh, then the other version they use is, um, this Vietnamese, Messaging app called Zalo. So if you go to Vietnam and you have a Vietnamese phone number You can download this app and then it's like WhatsApp or something and you can use it however, if you don't register with the Vietnamese number and what I did to get my SIM card was just Paying for a data plan. I now can't use Zalo. So now she's She's on her third method of communication, which is Facebook and that's the only way I can reach her And so it just took her a little bit, a while to figure out messenger, I think. And it was, she's, she's usually on the phone or texting or using Zalo. So once we were able to connect, the communication was great. She was on point 100% of the way. And after I finished that dinner, she told me that her husband was going to pick me up at 5am and we were going to go to the lychee market. Yeah, that's that's where it all began. That was this procession. I'd seen videos of this lychee procession and you get in a lychee traffic jam on the main road of the town just because there's so many cars coming in or motorbikes but also massive trucks that they fill with lychees for transportation. Kerry Newsome: Okay, so let's talk about that visit and that experience so that people can kind of get a visual. I'm sure you've got some great photos that I'll also put up on the page for people to see. But yeah, talk us through just what happened. They picked you up at 5 a.m. Where to from there? Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, so they picked me up at 5 a.m. and you're basically just on a motorbike. He drove my motorbike. I highly recommend for this portion of the trip, you're going to want this guy or another person to drive you on a motorbike and you're on the back. This is a very safe place to drive. No one's going over 10 kilometers per hour because of the amount of l ychee traffic. It's perfect. You have range of motion. for yourself, taking pictures, for you to turn around while he's driving. It's definitely the way to go. You can do it on foot. You definitely shouldn't do it on car, via car, because you'll just be stuck behind everything. But the motorbike's the way to go for this one. So basically, from what I understand, is there's a river that separates the town and the road from the lychee orchards. And that's where the people are collecting lychees, and they're starting at 2 a.m. on their farms, picking lychees out at dark. And then once, as soon as sunrise hits, they bike across these kind of hanging bridges. I'm sure some of the listeners have seen these bridges up in the mountains that kind of are one lane and feel like they could break at any time, but somehow they don't. I mean, the engineering in Vietnam is just incredible. But they drive across those, and then it's just kind of a race for them to get their stuff to the market. And once they're in line for the market, there's a person who comes along and almost seems to be appraising the lychees. And once they've been appraised, they then give the driver a little paper ticket that they can now give to whoever they're selling their market to, that basically it's been approved or appraised. I'm not sure whether the ticket system is how good your lychees look, and therefore you get a higher price, or whether you've just been cleared to do trade. But either way, something's going on. I go there, and it's just pandemonium. At these markets, it's absolute pandemonium. People are trying to grab all the leeches, they wash them off with the hose, they put them in these huge, almost pools, and wash them off and then drain them out. And then there's also men with gloves carrying dry ice, which is used for packaging, especially going to places like China, or other parts of Vietnam, or honestly, pretty much everywhere, just to make them remain as fresh as possible. And this dry ice, from what I would imagine, is like should not be touching your skin whatsoever. And like they come darn close to having a touch their skin, just casually bringing it from the truck onto the place. So that's, that's a site. And I have pictures of that too, uh, that, that you can include just to get a better, um, idea of it. But anyway, there's all these leachy people driving around left and right. And meanwhile, they're really interested in you, the foreigner being there because it's not a place where people go to. I, as a, as a photographer of people of something I've recently been doing, I'm still a little bit shy and feel a little bit bad of just taking pictures unsolicited of folks. And in a place like Mukong Chai where they're, they're quite shy. I don't really go out and try to take pictures of people unless I'm at a social gathering anymore. And even then I, I tried to do it only when I feel like they are going to give consent and it's. It feels like a safe space. But here, everybody's just smiling, posing, having a great time. It's totally new to them. And they're just, I don't know, they don't care. It doesn't affect their day. To them, that's at least how they see it. And so I had a lot of great interactions. And all the drivers were saying, oh, here, just take my lychees. Take as many as you want. I mean, they know you're not going to take a ton from them. Even if you did, by the way, which is something I haven't mentioned yet, a kilogram of these lychees are like one US dollar. So you're paying an unbelievably tiny amount. I left this entire place. They gave me a gift at the end, part of, I guess, this package. They gave me like five kilograms of lychees. It was way too much. I could not finish them. And this man told me that he eats, the man who ran the tour with his wife, told me that he eats one to two kilograms a day during lychee season. Wow. Kerry Newsome: So tell me, how long does it take to grow a lychee and what is required? Is it a tree? Is it in the soil? To be honest, as I said, I started this off by saying I'm clueless. Sure. Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, so I remember my mom growing up telling me it was a lychee nut. That is not the case. It grows from a tree. It grows from a tree in an orchard that looks similar to apple orchards. You know, short trees bent over, many short branches kind of bending over in an umbrella shape. Although the leaves run a little bit more wild, so it looks a little bit more healthy, I would say, than an apple tree. I think that the lychees probably it's a year-round process, but obviously, the heat plays a major role. So once summer rolls in, that's when they're going to start growing. And summer really begins in Vietnam, usually between April and May. Kerry Newsome: Do they take a year to grow? So it's like if they harvest every May, June or June, July, is that roundabout? Yes. Jesse Pearlman: It's a year. Yeah. It's only annually. It's just like the rice and mucang chai. It's just once a year. And it's from June to early July, pretty much all of the month of June. I came later on in June. And, you know, as I just described to you, it was the most of any one, maybe of one thing, like one unit of food I've ever seen in my entire life. And the whole time at that market, the man kept apologizing to me because of how few of these there were. And how much, how much crazier it was like, uh, in the peak part. And I was like, you know, couldn't believe that he said that, but yeah. So, uh, it's, it grows just at that one time a year and it's a little bit elevated, um, in terms of, uh, elevation, like, uh, it has to do with a little bit chilly winds and, uh, that has a major portion. And I think it's the humidity as well. That helps. these lychees grow. It used to be in a place called Haizhou, which I think might be its own province as well. I might be mistaken about that. But they ended up moving it to Bac Giang and Luc Ngan in particular, I think just because of changing weather conditions. I think they just determined that this was going to be the best growing conditions. Kerry Newsome: Is there any kind of medicinal aspect of the lychees? Are they good for you? I mean, people having, you know, one kilo a day seems, you know, exorbitant, but like, is there some kind of value or, you know, how does it play in their culture as far as their meals and, you know, how they treat the lychees? Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, it really, to me, seems like it is a giant export business. I think that it is just a massive opportunity for them to make money and for the country to make money, to bring them all around the world, and especially in Asia. That's the number one concern. I think the second part is definitely that it's a specialty and they're very proud of it, and they definitely eat it all the time for dessert. You might always just have some surplus lying around, too. You know, at night, sometimes when men, the men in Vietnam drink, they'll finish their drinking and they'll finish it by having some tea. And then during the tea, they might bring out some lychee, um, in a situation like that. And then I think that, uh, a funny thing about lychees and what people in Vietnam say is that it gives you really bad acne. Now I had never experienced that. And then I asked the people who ran the tour and they laughed and said, no, absolutely not. So that's a myth. It might just be a myth. It might be a myth. But when you asked me the questions about benefits, that was the first thing that came to mind. Right. Kerry Newsome: Well, yeah, getting acne probably is not a benefit for a lot of people. Jesse Pearlman: Exactly. It's a medical response. Yeah, it is a medical response. Kerry Newsome: Sure. OK. Is there anything else you want to tell everyone about this visit, this location, this experience before we kind of wrap things up? Jesse Pearlman: I think that one thing I would say is that like, you know, we are all dealing with a lot of small businesses struggling to stay afloat. And if you come to this place in Vietnam, you are supporting a small business. Like these are a group of people that pretty much have other jobs and are just doing this for one or two months a year. just trying to make a little bit more money to support their families. And these people were just absolute sweethearts were so efficient and good at their job. And, uh, I, I just don't really think that a lot of people know about it. And if you're in Hanoi, it's really not a huge extension in there. You know, they're just places that are getting really, really over touristed, which I think is another issue. in particular, like Ha Giang, the Ha Giang loop. The difference between when I left for Vietnam and now that was one of like the updates that people gave me was just, yeah, Ha Giang is almost like, it's untenable at this point. I don't know if they were, you know what I'm saying? So in places like that, I'd encourage people to maybe try to go somewhere different. And you're certainly going to get a response from the local people that is really positive because they're going to be so like interested in you. And hopefully, you know, if you're interested in Vietnam as a culture, that's a good thing to me because you can make more connections. And if you're a photographer, connections and photography go hand in hand, you can really form trust with these people and show them your kindness and, you know, if you want to give them some money after you take their picture, that's totally reasonable thing to want to do and to do. So, yeah, I just think supporting the small areas of Vietnam while we also have some really heavily touristed places. Ha Long Bay, another example. Here's some options. Here's another option for you. to take a two day, one day even trip out of Hanoi, get yourself picked up from your hotel and drop right back off there and you spend a night in a hotel which is a totally fine hotel, which is where I stayed. No issues. Kerry Newsome: Jesse, from a minority group standpoint, are they mostly Hmong in that area? Jesse Pearlman: Actually, they're pretty much all Vietnamese. Okay, this area is not an ethnic minority Location it's yeah, this is a pretty Vietnamese area. And I think that it's it's pretty close to Hanoi still to Relative to how far places can take to get in the north and I should also mention I just remember there's you like lotuses ,There's tons of lotus fields on the way and people selling lotuses on the side of this other road So it's another area, it's a very fertile area, the whole country is really fertile. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and I think you're right in saying that the North has certainly got that diversity, it's got the mountainous areas, it's got the diversity in minority groups and different experiences totally to the South, very, very, very different. So, I've been fascinated to find out about these lychees because I've seen them and I've gone, you know, what's the story there? Because it was just crazy that these bikes were just queued up for miles, it looked like, with these lychees. So, as an export business, I'm really glad that Vietnam can produce these and sell these around the world. They're an unusual fruit. They are kind of a prickly pear, for want of a better word, with that nut in the middle. I mean, how many can you consume in one sitting? Like, I could only do about two or three. That's a great question. I don't know. How many can you do? Jesse Pearlman: I'm a little bit more, I can do more than that, maybe like 10 or 15. Oh, wow. But I'll like, I'll go back to it. That's, that's what I'm about is I'll just, you know, I'll eat three or four or five and then maybe come back to it in a little bit. And also I should mention that it's very, at least for me, my experience was that it was very within Vietnamese culture for if you're eating food with, with Vietnamese people, they are going to encourage you to eat more and more and more. That was also some, some of the reasons why I ate more lychees than maybe I would have normally. Kerry Newsome: Look, thanks, Jessie. Thanks for being on the program. It's been really informative. I hope people will consider going out to this region. Let's make sure we put as many links as we can in the notes for people so that they can reach out because I'm all for supporting local businesses, community-based businesses, and Just giving people that extra information, I think, goes a long way to do that. So thanks again, Jesse, for being on the show. Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, and you know, just as an added thing, if you're not able to get in touch with these people, you're always welcome to reach out to me. My Instagram is PearlmanJ1, Pearlman, like a pearl earring, and then man, and then J, my first name, Jesse, PearlmanJ1. So if you want to send me a message on there, Or you could send me a Facebook message, Jesse Perlman is my name on Facebook. I can help you get there. So, you know, it wasn't easy for me. I want to try to make it easier. Kerry Newsome: That's really wonderful. And I'll make sure I put those links also in the notes and on the show page. Thanks again, Jesse. Hope you have a great day. Jesse Pearlman: Okay.

What About Vietnam S5 – E24 Ha Giang: Insider Tips for an Unforgettable Adventure Kerry Newsome : Now, Ha Giang is characterized by towering limestone casts, winding mountain passes, terrace rice fields, and changing colors with the seasons. You know, words like breathtaking, unbelievable are often referred to about this area. The last show I did on Ha Giang was with Tom Stone back in series 3, Episode 5. And that would be another reference point for you. And I'll put the link in the show notes if you want to go and explore there. Now, In some way, it's kind of an area that is steeped kind of back in time. Visitors can immerse themselves in the culture of various ethnic groups in the area, each with unique traditions and festivals. Let's welcome Ying to the show. Ying, it's a pleasure to have you with us. How are you? Hello. How are you? I'm very good, thanks Ying. It's really great to have you on the show. I am very excited to chat with you. Ying Hang : It's really nice to meet you here too. Looking forward to that. Kerry Newsome : Okay, Ying. Now, I'm going to ask you lots and lots of questions, as I'm sure when you have your travellers and you go around Tarzan, they do the same thing. But firstly, can I ask you a little bit about your personal background and growing up in Tarvan village in Sapa? Tell me a little bit about that. Ying Hang : So I'm from Ta Van originally. I grew up in the farm, like normal farming. And even today, my family still farm. So then when I was a kid, I had a dream that I don't want to farmer. Then I had to find some way to leave the farm and do what I, because when at that time, it was like the year of 2000. And I was only nine. So I see some tourists come to my village. And I thought, yeah, maybe this is a good job for the future. And then I had a dream that I want to be independent. So then I start to learn English. So I start to sell the handy crafts to the tourists come to my village. Then I start to learn English. I think it's about two years later that I moved to Sapa town. It's very small and small town at that time. We have like 30,000 in the whole area. Then I start to learn more English and I make more friends and that's how I become a tour guide after all. Kerry Newsome : Wow. So, you actually got to, you got your dream. Mm-hmm. I got my dream because I want to be a tour guide. That is fantastic. I love that you you had that vision for yourself. Was there something else in your family or were there people in your family that kind of encouraged you to do this? Ying Hang : Inspired you to do this? No, I don't have any family members were doing the tour like selling handicraft, but My cousin, she was, she speak English and she was already gay at that time. So I think, I say to myself, I want to be like her. And this is my dream job. And I would, I have to get there. Kerry Newsome : And so this is part of Dragon Mountain family group. Yeah, that that is you and your cousin, right? Ying Hang : Yeah, me and my sister and my cousin. Oh, fantastic. Kerry Newsome : Okay. Yeah. All right. Now, for my listeners that, you know, look at Instagram and, you know, TikTok and all the social media, there's lots and lots of photos and videos and everybody's an expert and everybody's doing it differently. So, let's start at the very beginning by talking about Ha Giang as in where is it? Where is it located in connection to Hanoi? Ying Hang : Hanoi is, Hanoi is north, north centre of Vietnam. So, you go directly from Hanoi to Hanoi. Because now where my hometown is northwest and Hanoi is north, north. Kerry Newsome : So, from Hanoi, it's about 300 kilometres, I think, roughly? Ying Hang : Yes, that's correct. 320 kilometres away from Hanoi. Okay. And it's about six or seven hours by car? It's about six hours by car or even like a bus is about six hours as well. Kerry Newsome : Okay. I think with motorbike maybe a little bit longer. Ying Hang : Yeah, not normally if the people do the motorbike, they would have to travel by province by province, not straight from Hanoi, it's too far. Okay. Kerry Newsome : So, essentially, Ha Giang is located kind of so far north of Vietnam, it almost borders China, correct? Ying Hang : Yeah, it's near the border about from Hainan City to China is 20 kilometers. Okay. Kerry Newsome : And if we were to describe this area, tell me if you think this description is a good one. So, it's kind of known to be rugged and very remote, and it features a lot of dramatic landscapes. And sometimes it's so deep and the valleys are rich in a like a colourful array of vegetation. And sometimes when it rains, some of those hills, they collapse onto the road. And sometimes when it's in the right time of the year, it is golden yellow in flourishing rice fields. Ying Hang : Yeah. Yeah. So, Ha Giang is A little bit warmer than in my hometown. They are the same weather in Hanoi. So they can do two harvests per year in the valley, but in the mountain, like, let's say, 20, no, 10 km away from the Ha Giang city, there is much colder, higher up. It's about 2,000 m from Ha Giang. so we do have a very green valley and have like a rainforest and national park map and lots of rice fields and the red zone people and the Hmong they are living in that area so during the beautiful season of visiting if you like green that is in July It is raining time, but if you like the weather, you like sunny and hot, then I recommend October is the best. Then you see all the yellow valley, because that time everybody will go to harvesting. Some people harvest, some is not yet, but most likely it's ready for harvest. Kerry Newsome : As far as Ha Giang town is concerned, talk to us a little bit about the town itself before we actually start on the loop. Ying Hang : Okay. So, Ha Giang city is Right at the valley with a lot of mountains on the side and there is a river. So the name of the river is Lo and they are crossing in the middle. So both sides is the Hazan city. And they are 7000 square meters around there. and we have 750,000 people live there and this day is quite remote but 10 years ago was much better and also now for tourists to go to Hazan it's a lot easier because there is many hotel many hostel and also a lot of easy rider they start from there as well so Hazan city is good for the first night you are arriving you spend the night and the next day you're ready for the tour right so Kerry Newsome : For people planning, you're going to arrange transport from Hanoi. It's going to take you about six or seven hours and you're going to have your first night in Ha Giang City, correct? Yes. Okay. So that's one day, because I'm going to get to the part about how much time you need to allow. Because sometimes people say, Oh, you know, I just, you know, going to go up and come back in two days. And you go, actually, no, that's not possible, because it takes you a day to get there. So it's important for people to appreciate the timing. My next question is around Like, while it's possible, I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, to explore the area by yourself, tell us a little bit about, you know, do you need a guide to do this well, or can you do it by yourself? Ying Hang : You can choose because a lot of people, they also do by themselves too. But one thing that you don't learn much about the area. You will go and you'll see the beautiful part, but then you don't learn any culture or you don't know what they're doing there. Kerry Newsome : From my perspective, this is what I think. Firstly, I think people would struggle with the navigation, just knowing where to go, how to go around things. So I think, you know, it's challenging. It's got winding mountain passes and unpredictable weather. The second thing I think, as you say, is sometimes when, you know, us mere travellers get there and we're looking at things, we don't really know what we're seeing. We don't really understand it. So, unless you have a guide like yourself or someone to tell us about this, it doesn't have quite the same impact on us, I think. That's another reason I think having a guide is good. The second last thing is I think about safety. you know, I hear some stories of some tragic things that happen. And, you know, even things like getting pulled up by the police and, you know, getting fines and things like that. So, there's a range of things that could happen on your trip up there that you wouldn't know how to handle. Yet if you have a guide with you, they can explain it. They've obviously got the language and things like that. And then there's just the convenience. I find a lot of comfort in being with someone who knows that area. Like I've done a lot of traveling. I've got a very close Vietnamese friend. And her and I go traveling a lot to places. And just the advantage of having her with me to A, speak in Vietnamese, but B, also to explain something to me, tell me to avoid something, you know, all that kind of stuff just helps me get it right. So, I think navigation is important, getting an understanding of the culture, So, you know what you're saying, safety and I think convenience, having someone by your side to explain things. So, they're the things that I think having a guide is all about. Tell me some of the things that when you're taking people around, what are they saying to you? What are they asking you? What are the things that come up for them instantly? This is a good question. Ying Hang : So, they will say, how did the tourists found this place? Because a lot of time, if they were in their country, they could not found Hazan. I think it's because we spelled it different, and if they want to look online, they spelled it different. So, that's why it's harder for them to find. Kerry Newsome : Can't find it, that's right, because it's G-I-A-N-G, but it sounds like Zang. Ha Giang. Yeah. I can, that's good, I haven't heard that said before. So what else do they say when they arrive in Ha Giang and they have lots of questions? What are some of the questions they ask? Ying Hang : I think I pretty much I tell them everything and they don't ask me too much. Kerry Newsome : I can imagine that. I can imagine that happening. Absolutely. Ying Hang : They will ask me, like, how many people live in here and what do they do for a living and how do they survive in this rocky mountain? But I also explain, like, from the beginning, this is how they live and they have, like, they don't have rice in that mountain. They cannot plant rice. They have to plant corn. and it's only one crop per year. And we have to start from March to June, July, they collect the corn. And during that time, when they collect the corn, they have to sell it to buy the rice, or they make a rice wine and sell it to make the income. Kerry Newsome : So they sell the rice wine, the happy wine. Ying Hang : They sell the corn wine. Kerry Newsome : The corn wine. Yes. Ying Hang : Yeah. Kerry Newsome : Okay. That is strong stuff. I've tried a little bit of that and my head nearly blew off. So, yeah. It is quite strong. It is quite strong. Absolutely. And not really easy tasting either. I don't like the tasting. No, it's not so smooth. It's very whiskey taste. Yes, absolutely. If you were to paint a picture for a person about Haozhang, what would you put in that picture? What are the key things that you would put in that picture? Ying Hang : I think I would paint Lolo people or Hmong in between those two. What people are they? Explain. Lolo. Lolo. Lolo people. Yeah. Have you heard much about them? No. More about Hmong. They are very… Thai and Dao. Yeah. because why I want to put them in there because they're very colorful. The dress are very flower and very pretty. In Vietnam, we don't have many of them. We have like over 4,000 people and they're living in Hà Giang and basically Mèo Vát, Đông Văn in Bảo Lạt district. They're very Chinese look. They are also farmers? Kerry Newsome : Everyone is. Everyone is farmer in that region. Unless they get a dream like you and work hard to become guide. If we're talking about getting back to our timing aspect, a day to get there and a day to come back, how many days do you suggest people allow to go around the loop? Ying Hang : So I suggest three nights, four days, but you can take the night bus from Hanoi. By the night time, you arrive in Ha Giang about midnight, and then you stay at the hotel. The morning, you pack. Then you, a guy and a driver pick you up. So you have three nights in the mountain, and then back. So basically, four days and six nights, or five and a half nights, something like that. Four to five days, yeah. Kerry Newsome : minimum. Yeah. Okay. This gives you time for a bit more of a pacing, because as I understand, you are traveling long distances each day. So, let's talk about also the way to explore the region. So, If we're talking about the loop, talk to us about how many miles you do per day and which is the best way to do it by car, by bike, by passenger on a bike, etc. Ying Hang : because everybody have a different experience and everyone wants to try different right so mostly the younger one like 18 to 30 most of them want to go in the easy rider because they want to experience how like the 1d road but also it's very dangerous if you don't know how to drive you must have an easy rider and beside that you need to have an international driving license for the police checking. We have like four or five different police station checking for the license. And if you don't know this, then you get fined. Every stop, they stop you. You have to pay like $100 per time. Okay, I want to stop you there. Kerry Newsome : So that means you have to have a license, a bike riding license in your own country. Yes, that in Vietnam is recognized. Yes, and that's only come up in the last couple of months. The laws on, you just can't have a car license, you've got to have a bike license and you have to be considered an experienced rider. So like I had someone contact me this week and they want to do the Ha-Zang loop, and they wanted to know about this license. And they have been writing for 15 years in their own country, in New Zealand, and, you know, so they're going to be coming with the right qualifications. But as you say, it's not the place to come to, to just jump on a bike, hire it straight away from Ha Giang and then go around. That would be considered very dangerous. Now, back to you. So, if you don't want to do that way, you can be a passenger on an easy rider. That's what easy rider is about, right? And that's the kind of younger people and we understand that. If you don't want to do that, what's the option? Ying Hang : If you don't want to do that, then you can take a car like a tour guide and a car. So it's much safer. You definitely will see more and learn more because your guide is with you. And then you can do some more walking, hiking into the villages. And they will show you like much more than you go by Easy Rider or you drive yourself. Because we will measure the time when we're doing the day. Every day we have a schedule. So we have full day to do the activity and we know what exactly to do. Kerry Newsome : If I come to you and we leave Ha Giang on a day, how much of that day would be on the road? Ying Hang : So for the first day, We drive about 150 kilometers away from Hazan. But on that way, we stop many places. So then we have a fully scheduled life. First place, Heaven's Gate. Second is the twin. And then the third is where the lady who's weaving the fabric and making the clothing. And then the fourth, we stop in one of the town called In Ming. That's for lunch. And then we go to the King Palace in Laos and then Dong Van for the night. That's just day one? Kerry Newsome : Yeah. Right. And where do you stay in the evening? Ying Hang : We stay at the hotel in Dong Van. You can choose like a hotel or homestay. Kerry Newsome : Right. Can you explain the difference about a homestay versus the hotel and the standard? Ying Hang : yeah so hotel it's in the mountain there is very basic it's like two-star or one-star hotel it's nothing fancy because it's open for tourism not long ago and to develop it's not very okay because it's a unit school so you can't build too many fancy but the homestay you can stay with the family and spend the night with them and have dinner and see their life, learn about their life and culture. In the evening you get to share with them. Okay. Kerry Newsome : Now, I know this is going to sound very basic, but like things like a shower, private bathroom, toilet, things like that. I know some people don't care at all about it, but For me, I'm an older lady, and those things are important to know. If I know what to expect. They have everything. So the hotel, would you have a private toilet? Or would it be shared? Ying Hang : You own bed. No, the bathroom is in the room. So you have everything private. But sometimes homestay have to sharing. Right. Depends what you order. Because they have like a little private room that you have everything in the room. If you want to share in the dorm, you can have a dorm. If you want a private room, they give you a private room. Kerry Newsome : Okay. Good to know. All right. So, that's day one. What would be day two? Ying Hang : So, day two, we have more options to choose. So, we can choose to have breakfast at 7.30 normally that's what I do basically because it's a long day yeah so breakfast 7.30 then we drive to Lung Ku flat where the Lolo people living that is where the border China about three kilometers away and with a beautiful view landscape with the Lolo, Hmong, Thai and where else? Nung people living in that valley Then after the view, visit, learn a little bit about the culture and the history about that mountain. Then we come back to Dong Van. Then we drive to Ma Pi Lan mountain. That is the most beautiful place the whole trip. Then we can do, we will do some hiking. Okay. Kerry Newsome : The evening, after a long drive, everyone tired. Because it's been a busy day. Yeah. So, they stay in another homestay, another… Another homestay. Another homestay. Because I would think… Every night we stay different. Right. Second night. Because not many hotels out there. More homestay. Ying Hang : No. We stay different, yeah, different homestay every night. Kerry Newsome : Right. Okay. So then on day three, are we nearly on the loop coming back to Ha Giang or still a long way from Ha Giang? Ying Hang : We go further to Yiming and Suzhou. so that it's beautiful and discovered not long ago and it's quite popular for tourists who want to swim and there's a waterfall so everybody want to go there and visit but Zouza village is very beautiful it's in the valley of the big Yeah. Kerry Newsome : And when you go to these places, is there a lot of other tourists there? Like, is it super busy and lots of… It is super busy, but you choose where you want to be quiet. Ying Hang : Ah. Kerry Newsome : It's less touristy. And this is where you come in very handy to explain and take people to areas that they couldn't find by themselves, right? Yeah, yes, that's correct. Okay, so now we've been three days around the loop. What do we do on day four? Ying Hang : So on the day four, breakfast, same, same, every day morning, every morning, same hour for breakfast, then we drive back to Quang Ba with a Thursday. We have to travel different direction to the first day then we were going back to Ha Giang in the afternoon and some people can take the bus like four o'clock or they can take the sleeping bus to Hanoi or they decided to go to Sa Pa by that direction okay so yeah so day four basically return all right so you check me and tell me if i understand correctly okay day one i travel from Hanoi to Ha Giang city yes Kerry Newsome : Day two, three, four, I am traveling around the loop. Day five is the last day and I come back into Ha Giang, but a different way. And I can, but if I got back late, wouldn't I want to stay the night and then go back to Hanoi the next day? Ying Hang : Yeah, you can also do that or you can catch the late night bus at 10 o'clock. Kerry Newsome : At 10 o'clock. Wow. Ying Hang : At 10pm. So, you can, you can leave late in the night time. Right. Kerry Newsome : And you are arriving at about 3am. So, now I'm going to ask a very tricky question, as in, who are the type of people who this is best for? Like, I'm not the most… No, I'll say this another way. I am… I'm not the best outdoor person. That's the best way to describe it. I am very circumspect about where I travel in Vietnam and if I'm capable of doing the level of trekking involved so that I don't injure myself for the rest of the stay. So, like, is there, like, for you, do you try and guide people that are mostly younger people or older people or, like, I need some kind of Ying Hang : understanding of level of fitness yeah yeah so there I mostly guide the my customer around your age they're not always young you're kidding Really? No. Yeah. They are around 50 plus. Yeah. Mostly. That's me. And family. So yeah. So for the options of trekking you can choose. If you cannot do this trekking and I can always find you another direction that it's easy for you. So there is always option because it's like I know the area well. I don't have to just take only one trail the whole time. I can always change it. When I normally do tour, I always say, how far can you go and how is your health condition? So then I can decide on that day what schedule we're taking. Kerry Newsome : That's very comforting to hear. But like your experience now, you've been doing this for quite a long time. what would be the, I'm trying to understand the general population of people that would come to you. Are they mostly 50 or, because firstly they have to find you and I just want to let everyone know that's listening. I'm going to put Ying's link in the show notes so you don't have to remember everything she says. You're going to be able to communicate with her directly through her website. I also advise a lot of people on putting trips together. So, I plan the trip. So, someone arrives into Hanoi and maybe they do Ninh Binh and maybe they do Sa Pa and then I can arrange to come to you and I plan everything. What do they need to know before they come? Like what is like about clothing, about health and fitness, about everything like that? What would you say? Ying Hang : So for the, because different season, I would, I will tell you what to bring. So in summer, usually in the nighttime temperature drop in the mountains, so you always have to bring one long sleeve, but mostly long, Long pants or long trousers is always good because we have mosquitos when you do the hiking around the villages. And in summer, it's quite hot so you always have to bring a lot of sun cream. In case if it's raining, you need to have a jacket like a rain jacket or umbrella, whatever. Sun cream, mosquito sprays, insect sprays. And clothing, in summer, it don't really have problem but winter, Winter for us sometimes is not as cold as in Europe or in Australia. But to us we are cold. Like 5 or 10 degrees is quite cold for us. Kerry Newsome : I have been to Sapa and it's been freezing. I have had a big puffed jacket on and I go straight to my hotel, I get under the duna and I am freezing. Like January is freezing. So, September to November is the best weather for golden, right? March to May is pleasant and blooming flowers. Yeah? This is just what I write to myself. December to February is cold, very cold. But it is, it's kind of misty, isn't it? It kind of gets a little bit… Yeah, now it's very misty. But you're sitting there with a big puffer jacket, a North Face puffer jacket. So, and it is March. So, yeah. And then June to August is green, very green. Green, very green. Yeah. Okay. So, Everyone, please go back and check those months of the year and plan and pack accordingly. I cannot stress it enough. I ran around Hanoi desperately trying to find a puffer jacket because I was only going to Sa Pa and Mai Chau and I froze. I was really cold in February, beginning of February. So, I learnt my lesson. So, I try to tell people, wise up. It's really important. And if you're on a bike or an easy rider or whatever, even colder. Oh man, is it cold. If you were to tell people anything else that they need to know, what would that be? Ying Hang : Whatever you plan, you have to know what you want to do. Like if you go by car, you don't need to plan like carry Too many things, but motorbike, you definitely want to have good shoes because when your shoes get wet, you're cold if you're easy rider and you need to have a good rain jacket. When you get wet, everything is not feeling good and cold. Correct. Kerry Newsome : Yeah. Ying Hang : Yeah. Kerry Newsome : I'm terrible at packing, really bad. So, I have suggested to people in the past that they arrange with their hotel in Hanoi when they come back to stay in that same hotel and leave the bulk of their luggage in the hotel and the hotel will look after it. Because you don't really want to be lugging around 23 kg luggage and a backpack and another carry-on and whatever, because you've been shopping or whatever. Ying Hang : Bring just enough for you, if you want more you can always buy. Fair achievement. Kerry Newsome : Ying, I wonder if you could tell us just maybe one story about some travellers that you took around, like a story about their experience and explain what you did and what was the highlight. Ying Hang : the local authentic and basically local and the market. The market, it's very beautiful. I highly recommend. It's Mil Van and Dong Van market. They are the most beautiful and colorful and it's still very traditional. They don't have like too many tourists go in that market. Only the people who stay overnight in the area, they go. Okay. Kerry Newsome : If there was one story that you could tell about something that happened along the way around the Ha Giang Loop, what would that story be? Ying Hang : Beautiful story. It's the market in the Kanya. It's very beautiful. So a lot of people want to go to the boat riding below the Mapilin Mountain. that's beside the China border and Vietnam so wherever you go and you will experience beautiful and basically lots and lots of people go there because they're so pretty the one thing we only have like 40 minutes on the boat so you can take a swim in there And you can have lunch there. And then you come back on the boat, off the boat after you finish. Kerry Newsome : Oh, okay. And what day would you do that on? Day three? We'll be on the day two. On day two. Okay. All right. And the other thing I didn't ask you about was the food. Tell us a little bit about some of the unique food in the area. Ying Hang : Okay, so the local food up in Hazan, it's a little bit more like Chinese. The way they cook, normally we're sharing the food together. We order like pork, one plate pork, chicken, or duck, or veggie. We have lots of greens, so we will order like few different dish and we're sharing with the group. In the night time, we have a steam bowl, like a hot pot. So that is very Chinese and a lot of time everybody like it. Mostly I always have that for dinner because it's a little bit colder in the night time. So we have that for dinner. Then you can go to see the in Dong Van there is a night market. on the Saturday night and on the Friday night, they do a little bit dancing. You can also join them too. Kerry Newsome : That brings up another point then, like should people come on the Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, those days rather than during the week? Ying Hang : Yeah, that's, I also recommend that too. In the week it's a little bit more quiet if you don't want to see too many people, because on Saturday and Sunday it's a lot of Vietnamese travellers, they go to that area. It's going to be busy, but it's beautiful too. Kerry Newsome : As far as the language is concerned, not many people speak English up there, do they? Ying Hang : Yeah, Hazan don't have too many people speak English. It's now start some younger boy, they want to learn and they want to do the Easy Rider, but to be a tour guide, there is no. Kerry Newsome : What would you say about, is it safe for a woman solo traveler to come on their own to this area? It's safe. Ying Hang : Yeah, it is very safe. Okay. But what you plan, you have to be careful with the company, that's all. Kerry Newsome : Yes. Ying Hang : Yeah, because when you book, they don't refund you. Kerry Newsome : They don't refund you. Yeah. You know, like I know some very adventurous women who travel from the US and Europe, because they do lots of trekking in their own countries, etc. So I want to make sure when I say, you know, you can feel safe to come, I would get them to get in touch with you so that you can set them up. Because to me, part of the safety factor is in about who you deal with. So, like I always make sure that I deal with reputable companies that I know and trust, that I've dealt with, and I'm confident then in sending them up that way. Ying Hang : Yeah, definitely. Understandable. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, definitely. Now, I mean, there's lots of talk about the future of Ha Giang tourism. What would you say the future is for Ha Giang? Ying Hang : The future is going to be touristy and very, very remotely. I mean, lots of things are coming up now. Building homestay, On the roadside, it's a little bit not so pretty anymore. Day by day, I'm traveling there every week. So I see change very much. Kerry Newsome : And is that change not so good? Do you think it will spoil it? Ying Hang : Yes. Well, too many buildings and they are not traditional. So it's not pretty. But there is a place you can go just a little bit further. You just have to find it out. Kerry Newsome : I really do want to encourage my listeners to explore, do your research about this area. I'll definitely put Ying's details in the notes, as I said. I just want to say thank you, Ying, for coming on the show and for giving us this information because it's truly valuable. Ying Hang : I am very happy that you invite me to. I really appreciate it. Links – What About Vietnam S3-E5 - https://www.whataboutvietnam.com/series-3/episode-5/the-ha-giang-loop---vietnams-final-frontier Ying’s website: dragonmountainfamily.com , Her WhatsApp number :+84338805995 Note: Please forgive any background sounds and any words misspelt in the Transcript.

What About Vietnam – S5-E27 Discovering Catholic Treasures of Vietnam: Church Hunting in Ninh Binh and Nam Dinh Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. I'm your host, Kerry Newsome. And today we're stepping into the world you may not expect to find in Vietnam, the world of Catholic churches. I know it took me by surprise as well. On a recent journey through the North, I found myself genuinely surprised and deeply moved by the stunning architecture, peaceful presence and rich history of these churches. Some tucked away in the most unlikely places. You might be wondering how did Catholicism end up in Vietnam? Well, it dates back to the 16th century with Portuguese missionaries, but it was during the French colonial era, particularly the 19th and the 20th centuries, that Catholicism really took root. The French left more than just baguettes and grand boulevards. They left cathedrals, monasteries, convents, and a strong Christian presence that still lives on today. And you'll hear that in the stories that we tell. Today, about 7% of Vietnam's population identifies as Catholic, one of the largest Catholic communities in Southeast Asia. And while many associate Catholicism with the South, the North is full of hidden gems, quiet villages, with beautiful stone churches. As we were driving along the road, we could see the steeples, some over a hundred years old, where the faith and local culture intertwine in the most unique ways. I hope you'll join me and my guest as we go in search of churches, exploring their stories, their architecture, and the peaceful energy they bring to the vibrant and spiritual land of Vietnam. This show and my longer guest have had this in the works for a very long time. We've talked about exploring Northern Vietnam and certainly in the region of Ninh Binh and Nam Dinh in our search, would you believe, for churches. So you may have heard a previous episode that I did with her and we did mention it briefly and we did say look next trip we will definitely go in search for churches. null: So today I hope you'll welcome her to the program. Kerry Newsome: over the last 24-48 hours of exploring this area for churches. And I think you're going to really, really be surprised because I know, I hope I've captured my amazing face and expressions when I have seen these magnificent churches. So heart, please say hello. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Hello Kerry, hello everybody. Welcome and I'm so happy to indeed have this opportunity to go church hunting with Kerry Newsome. Kerry Newsome : Okay, alright, so a little bit of background to the trip and the beginning. So we of course started in Hanoi. And from Hanoi, we have engaged with a personal driver. And from my perspective as an international traveler, obviously as a foreigner, I think this was the best way to do it. Now, I have the advantage of her, and I have her for two reasons of enjoyment. One, she is extremely knowledgeable about these churches. And secondly, she has put some research into the churches that we are going to talk about. So she was able to speak to them with great fluency, and you're going to hear that as we go through the show. Plus, she can even use her Vietnamese tongue to be able to say the names and the districts and things like that. And of course, you know much better than me. and then a great company as I got to know her a little bit more and in our exploration with visiting the churches, just how lovely it was to find this part of Vietnam that I don't know, I'm not sure that many of you would think of Vietnam in this vein and think of I think Ham mentioned to me during the day that it's around about 80% of the population of Vietnamese that are actually Catholic and follow the Catholic Church. So it's still a very thriving religion in the country and as we discuss some construction stages and rebuilding and you just get a sense that the churches are very symbolic. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Meaning that I'm not even a Catholic, but me being brought up in Hanoi and have been to the Hanoi church, the Hanoi Cathedral, and seeing the splendor, the beauty of it, I eventually got interested to know more about the church. And I have to admit that I didn't really understand the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism up to I was quite a young adult. So Northern Vietnam, where I come from, is about Catholicism. In the provinces that we visited this time with Carrie, Nam Dinh, and Ninh Binh, are the cradle of Christianity, specifically Catholicism in Vietnam. And the first church that we visited is the Bùi Chù Cathedral. And Bùi Chù Diocese is the longest serving and one can say it is like truly the cradle of Portuguese missionaries who came to Vietnam and started the dioceses there. Bui Chu Cathedral used to be, it had a 150 years history, it used to be quite run down. And the fathers at Bui Chu were worried before COVID about it being the risking to collapse anytime. So despite all the old history and the splendor of it and all the non-stop discussion with architects, they actually had to make the painful decision to take down and build a new one. So when Carrie and I visited this time, We actually see the mostly completed new cathedral built, I think, mostly to the same exact design and decoration as the old one. It's beautiful and it sits in a majestic area. And the people, the workers, the contractors who are working there, were beaming with pride about what they are doing and they are completing. And they told us that the grand opening of the new cathedral, Bùi Chù Cathedral, is going to be sometime next year, 2026. But as soon as August this year, masses and services could be started to be conducted inside the church again. And for visitors who come to Nam Dinh to see the beauties of the cathedrals and churches there. I think if you had to, if you can plan to be on a weekend, it would be wonderful because you wouldn't see the masses, you wouldn't see the churches as a community center with activities, with all the living actions in there, and it is actually seeing it is, in a way, is also as interesting as seeing those churches and cathedrals just as like old wood relics or old building architectures. So that is something that both Carrie and I were very happy to see, including we were able to speak to the people around and hear them expressing their joy and pride of the cathedral that they are contributing to. Kerry Newsome: And you know it was intriguing for me to learn during the journey that Hart was saying that you know we were spotting churches on the road like we were driving along and we would see the the churches and the steeples. The spires. Yeah, the spires. And it was like every couple of miles in some places. And I think, what did you say, you said there's about two churches? Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Yes, so the density and the frequency of you spotting churches in Nam Dinh, especially, is so much that it's almost like two churches per village. To be admittedly, not all villages in Nam Dinh are Christian and Catholic churches, villages, but they have a very dense areas, almost like whole districts, where the Catholic population is so dense and so long-serving that you do have two churches per village. And it's such a big fun because it is literally church hunting because we will see two churches to the left and three churches to our right and it is like oh like to trying to see which one is bigger, which one is more beautiful, which one has a more interesting bell tower, that kind of thing. Kerry Newsome : And as we're going along, I was like, oh look, there's another one, and Carrie, you missed this one. And I was like, you know, my head was on a swivel. Spinning. Just, I was, because I think Once again, going into this trip, obviously I had the headset to look for churches, but they would be easy to dismiss if you were just taking the journey to get from Hanoi to Nam Dinh or to Ninh Binh, because this is the area that we are in. Do not keep your eyes open to this. And what was lovely about this cathedral in particular, the father that was there. Unfortunately my French is very poor, as poor as my Vietnamese. So Hart did a great job to sort of say hello and tell the father about what we were doing. But we made the comments about the construction and some of the decisions to make it all look perfectly new and all the rest building and obviously with that age and sure it is destruction and it can't be sustainable but it shows the history you can see the history and the brickwork and what is left so we were able to wander around the grounds we weren't able to actually go inside because of the construction but it began We went on a little bit further and we went on to explore the Basilica. As you would know of the Basilica, it is recognised by the church as an official part of their, of the religion and recognised by the Pope and all the rest of it. So over to you Hap. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Yes, so we have four basilicas in Vietnam, two in the north, one in central Vietnam, and one is right there in the center of Saigon. So it is actually for you to find out more about the four basilicas, but this time Carrie and I, we were able to visit Phú Nhai Basilica, and it is I think number two or number three largest Catholic churches in Vietnam. And Phu Nhai Basilica is also famous because it appeared in many films and documentaries in Vietnam. And when you are either in Bui Chu Cathedral or Phu Nhai Basilica, you would be easily thinking that you are not in Vietnam. The Gothic architecture, all the details, all the design and decoration, all the bas-relief on the walls surrounding the basilica are European, are so like, even like Greek in some ways. So it is kind of intriguing to to look further and see rice fields and some very non-Vietnamese edifice being there. And the Basilica is wonderful in the sense that it is truly the center of that community and we were able to walk around and children running around and families next door to the basilica, creating beautiful bonsais and, you know, leaving cross using like ornament trees and plants. So all those smaller details add to the living beauty of Basilica in a thriving community. And I'm sure that many visitors could also, we would recommend you also to walk around and many of the houses actually open and people are very welcoming. people to come in and whether you are a Catholic like them or you are not, like in my case, they would be like very, very willing to tell you about the basilicas, the importance of it in their community. Kerry Newsome: Was that the one where we went to the very elaborate houses? Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : We did, we did. It's actually next door. Yes, next door. Kerry Newsome: Because the grounds were immaculate. They were well maintained. The bonsais were beautifully crafted. Hannah tells me that the area is well known to have bonsai masters who do take great care in looking after the bonsais because they are everywhere. And what was crazy and kind of doing my head in a little bit is that you can be forgiven for thinking, am I still in Vietnam? This looks and feels like it could be somewhere in Italy because the craftsmanship is Gothic, is Roman, is Catholic in every sense of the word. So what you are seeing in some of the statues and some of the engravings and some of the architecture. There's nothing that they have adapted to make it look Vietnamese. It's the other way. It's made to look very, very, very Catholic and obviously religious. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : I really hope that since we asked Vietnam Stats to have the representative of the Pope residing in Hanoi since 2022, one day the representative of the Pope would be able to come and visit this magnificent basilica around the country. Kerry Newsome: We moved on from the basilica and we went to another church. and I got to have a really good walk around this one, and I'll leave it to you, Ha, to give a little bit of context to, is it Kien Lao? Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Kien Lao, yeah. Actually, we stayed there a little bit too short time. You flew the, yeah? Yeah. But I think we, since we, you going to do that but you know with the flycam was it good enough to null: imagery I was able to capture using a small drone. Kerry Newsome: I'll be able to show you just how magnificent it is but we kind of got chewed up with time with a little bit of technology issues but Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : So we went to Kien Lao Church, which is beautiful and special in the sense that we were able to go inside and the acoustics as well as the lighting inside the church is just mesmerizing. It's just so captivating. And we are not in a very like sunny day, but the light inside, outside, inside the church makes me feel very special. And that is one thing that makes me wanting to go back to the Catholic churches all the time, because I can see the harmony of the light and the beauty of the the sound of the acoustic inside when we step inside a church. So it is really special when thinking that those churches being built like 100 years ago, and the craftsmanship and the people who built them at that time already must, in the countryside of Vietnam, already mastered. the engineering that makes the light and the acoustics work so wonderfully, almost like in any other Catholic churches elsewhere in Europe. Kerry Newsome: Was this the one where the children were singing and we caught the children? Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Yes, it was. Kerry Newsome: That was such a lucky chance. That was so beautiful. They were so enthusiastic and maybe I made sure that they kind of knew that I was filming them because I thought they would sing to that knowing that I was doing some filming. But it was just lovely. And then we walked around and there was the pulpit stair, that was the one with the staircase up? Yes, yes. That was just incredible. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Stunning, isn't it? For visitors, I think if you can time your time to Kien Lao Church, or like some of those bigger churches, at after 11 in the morning, at around before lunchtime, I think you have a very good probability catching those children learning, children's choir. practicing singing chanting in the church because that is when they came back from their morning school and they would have church class hours quickly. So we were very lucky that in the morning we hear the children singing and the afternoon we hear another wonderful chanting, yes. Kerry Newsome: next church and this one was very, very different. In fact, Halloween has been referred to this church and she'll explain a little bit about that. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : we went to Hung Nghia Church, which is not too far away from Kien Lau Church. And in the past, it was like dark and reddish color, which is very striking among the Vietnamese lush green rice field and everything. But this time when we visited it, it's painted, being painted, yes, dark black, and in another striking way, because some of the decoration details are intentionally, I think, painted red and white, and so, and the contrast is striking, and it is a super big complex of a church, so I thought they are going to use it for filming of some Halloween story, but I asked the people around, the locals, and they said no, no, no. They are serious about keeping it officially in this appearance. So it is like painting dark black with red windows and decoration details in white. So it's kind of, really out of this world and In a few months time in few months time yes And Kerry Newsome: It doesn't have too much of a surrounding area that you would want to spend time with. You just need to add it into the trip to just see the striking difference against the setting of Vietnam rice fields and all of that area. But I do want Hutt to talk a lot about the next stop. have an experience there that we didn't expect. It was at dusk. So we did this on a Friday, which is probably, Hartley's going to say probably the weekend is probably better, but it will be busier. So we got to experience a lot of these without any big crowds. There was no see that kind of experience in these places. So, you know, it is a journey very personal and I think for those of you who do follow the faith, you know, you would go with that mindset. It's not a touristy kind of experience and I don't actually want it to be. I do not want big buses rolling up at these places, but I do want you to know about them, so that if you do want to take this personal journey like I did, and not be fed out of curiosity that in a country where over 90% of the population is Buddhist, to find in our thriving Catholic communities that exist and and are there with these magnificent churches you know you kind of have to see it to believe it but this particular cathedral is the setting just let me try and paint this picture before I leave it was like about 5 p.m and it was just coming into dusk so you can imagine this over to you so you can talk through our total experience including some of the acoustic experience. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : So Kerry and I saved the best for last because in the afternoon we crossed the borders from Nam Dinh province to Ninh Binh province and we visited a hidden treasure the Choson Monastery. It is a functioning monastery. It's a little bit far away. It is actually next to Dao Mountain. And the driver was also a little bit unsure of how to find that place. And certainly there are no busloads of tourists. It is a quiet, tranquil place. It is a gothic monastery just like you are stepping in a Harry Potter world. It is so beautiful and well kept with minimal restoration, I would say. So you really have to see it in order to be stunned by the Gothic architecture against the beauty of Ninh Binh mountains with a magnificent garden with the underground caves and all the immaculately manicured lawns and bonsai. And we were so lucky that the chapel was opened and the monks who lived there, trained there, studied there, came in and did a wonderful afternoon chanting. Again, as you might know, I come to those places because I admire the acoustics. And this time, of course, it didn't disappoint me. The acoustics in this beautiful location and looking a little bit out to see the sunset, the dusk, it's like unbelievable, unbelievably surreal. Choson Monastery, as I mentioned, it's going to be 90 years old next year, and they have been a functioning monastery with practicing monks all the time, and they are very thoughtful to make it available and accessible to the public. gradually, because I have visited that place maybe 15 times. So the first few times when I came there, I actually had to call in advance, ask for permission from the father to come in. And then eventually they open it like one, two days per week. And now it looks to me that they are not like open for massive tourism, but they do open and they do welcome the guests. And it is pretty far away. It is pretty unwell-known yet, but it is truly somewhere you really won't feel that you are you touch the beauty of your spiritual soul and the setting is there for you to really to see the grandiose of nature with thoughtfulness of people. And the rabbits in the garden. And the roosters fighting nicely. Yeah, I mean the gardens are just something else. Kerry Newsome: to the actual church itself. So it's a place where you could spend and you should allow a little bit more time I think. Now Hart was surprised that we were able to be there at about five o'clock and experience of the of the bumps and we don't know yet we're going to do a bit more research around whether that is actually typical because she was kind of told it's normally at two o'clock not at five o'clock and you know i had i kind of put my two bobs in in the sense that i was trying colors of dust in the sky to surround this area and I was right when we were there and I was taking photos and doing a little bit of video. It was just mesmerizing the color mixtures and the feeling I could have spent more time there and I wish we did have more time and that's going to lead into the next thing I want to talk about is timing because we were able to fit those five in that we've just talked about Now, if you pushed yourself, you know, with still having time for lunch and to come back to wherever you're staying, now we're staying at the Emeralda in Tampcock. And I have to say, we were really impressed. It's really only been open here for a couple of years, and the setting of it and where it is, as much imagery and photos because I did go a bit nuts with the photos and video so please watch the social pages and you know you can talk to me anytime reach out and I can give you some more information about these places. But specifically I do want to talk about the timing and the time allowance that you should consider when you're putting your trip together from Hanoi to visit this area. So today we have experience where we're going to see one more and I'm going to ask her to talk about this one because we won't get to come back on the microphones again. from her experience. So today we have one more. That means that in two days, one night, we will have seen six and that is allowing me time to get back to Hanoi and Hanoi airport. Now, personally, now that I've done this, I probably would be recommending you to do two nights and take your time and with your driver and with your guide, you know, allow yourself a little bit more time at these places, building a nice place we would look at for you to spend for lunch, and then come back to enjoy the resort. You know, Hart and I wanted to come back later, we've had a great day, we've had a chance to have a nice swim, sit by the water side, and just take in the ambience of the actual resort. I still think one night is rushing it a little bit, two nights is definitely allowing you to luxuriate and really feel the area. And you could still fill it with more churches because there's plenty of them to see. So how can I ask you to just speak to a little bit about the one we're going to see? Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : So, Carrie, yesterday we have seen very, very European-style church, cathedrals, and basilicas, right? Today we are going to see a church, which I would jokingly call a fusion church. It is going to be the Phat Diep stone cathedral, it is the other quadrant of Catholic system in the Nam Dinh and Ninh Binh area, together with Bui Chu cathedral. Phat Diep cathedral is enormous. It is a stone complex of cathedrals and chapels and praying area. And it is built with the Ningbing limestone, which is famous in this area, on what used to be a swamp. So the engineering work that goes into it is enormous, and it is a combination of Catholic church architecture and Vietnamese traditional communal houses. So it's going to look kind of funky in a way. Very traditional but also very unexpected and like very intriguing in many ways. modernistic as well and like if the nuns there would explain to us why certain things are designed or made a certain way and the story behind all those smaller details are also exciting. So I look forward to go with you in a few minutes to that place and for sure please do add more of your own feeling and impression of Phat Diep Stone Cathedral to our podcast, Kerry. For sure. Kerry Newsome: So the other aspect of the trip that it has brought to me is that you definitely could add more churches into your experience. We have done only a small snapshot Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : We have not even done 1% of these over 600 churches in Nam Dinh province alone, right? We have 99% more churches to see. Kerry Newsome: So you're now getting the gist that this is a snapshot of what is open to you to explore and we could build that in. For the purpose of your planning, I would, as I said, have a look at just how much time you have on your hands to explore this region. The lovely thing about this region from Hanoi is that it is still only in the vicinity of two, three hours in time. So it's not like having to go on those bigger trips where you're going into Yen Bai or you're going to Mu Chai or where it's five, six, seven hours each way, which chew up a lot of time. So this is like some magic very close to Hanoi. I will put in the show notes and list the cathedrals and the basilicas and the churches that we did see. You, as I said, can reach out to me any time and I can access the right information because there is no church tour that you can kind of just buy off the shelf. And I think that's good. I think it should be something that, you know, we craft for you as a person, as an individual, as a person who follows the faith, maybe, or like her, who doesn't follow the faith. However, her curiosity in the churches and Catholicism in Vietnam kind of gave her the insights to want to know more and explore more and I mean you know the one we went to yesterday 15 times she's been there so she still looked in awe of the experience as I did for the first time so I think there's a lot to be had I hope you've enjoyed the show And thank you, for spending the time with me. I so enjoyed it. I knew it would be good and it's lived up to my expectations. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Wonderful. So happy to hear that you are enjoying it as much as I did, Kerry. Kerry Newsome: we will get on to the next church, the Modernistic Fusion Church. Let's go! Just wanted to finish off everyone referring to the Phat Diem Stone Cathedral that Hannah refers to just as we were closing off there. We did get to cover it off. It was really hot about kind of 10 o'clock in the morning. So, you know, would recommend you going earlier in the day or in the cooler of the afternoon. A massive area. Look, it is modernistic, very futuristic in the way it's trying to combine the two religions. It didn't kind of capture my soul, I have to admit. However, you know, to see just the expansiveness, the devil of detail. that obviously the architects have gone to to try and combine them as best they can is really quite amazing. It is a big area, so you really need to allow plenty of time to walk around it, to get the gardens and just the full area. They do run masses and you can look up their times to attend those masses. It was truly impressive, but as I said, would it? Did it kind of do it for me? Probably not as much as the others did that we covered off yesterday. And because there's so many more to cover, I probably wouldn't include this one. I'd probably go seeking some others that we didn't get to do on this trip. That's not to say we won't do it in the future. However, I just wanted to cover this off as Hannah said, we were going and she was very excited to see this one again. I hope you've enjoyed the show. We have covered off quite a lot and please reach out if you need any further information. I look forward to bringing you future shows of the What About Vietnam podcast and just want to say thank you for listening. @whataboutvietnam @vietnamtourismboard @vietnamexperiences @cathedrals_of_the_world @culturetrip @theculturetrip @sacredplaces @traveltovietnam @religiousheritagesites @explorevietnam @soulfultravels @unesco @podcastmovement @vietnamnetglobal @Petersteinhauer