What About Vietnam – S3 - 7
Jimmy Pham on how to leave a positive footprint on Vietnam through Social Enterprise
[00:00:36] Kerry Newsome: Xin chào. Welcome to What About Vietnam. Travel has so much to offer us. Along with all the great experiences that we anticipate we're going to have, especially when we're planning a trip to Vietnam, possibly one of the most significant things that we don't think about in the first instance is just what kind of positive footprint we're going to leave behind in the country.
In today's episode, we're going to be talking about responsible tourism, impactful tourism, and social enterprise in Vietnam. I can't think of anyone better to open our eyes and our hearts to social enterprise than my guest today, Jimmy Pham. I feel very privileged to be talking with him as I've had the luxury of experiencing KOTO, the social enterprise restaurant and hospitality program Jimmy founded 23 years ago.
I first recognized the restaurant and had a visit to it at the time. It was a sandwich shop at the time located just near the Temple of Literature. I've been back several times and enjoyed the food there every time, but Jimmy's going to tell the background story to that sandwich shop. He's going to share with us some of the visitors that he's had the privilege to feed, and just how it's grown and evolved to what it is today, and just how many street kids he's been able to assist in that program. He'll share with us how social enterprise businesses are influencing change and breaking the poverty cycle in Vietnam.
He's earned many prestigious awards for his work with youth and communities including being awarded the Order of Australia back in 2013. In addition, he's earned many other prestigious awards including the South Korea's most coveted award for philanthropy - the POSCO TJ Park Prize in 2017. He continues to be ranked in the top 40 most popular motivational speakers by Saxton speakers. He's vice president of Auscham Vietnam. As a great influencer in the country, mentoring businesses and the travel industry to seek ways that offering charity to beggars may not be the best way to go. He'll help us better understand why we should be maybe more curious about ways that can foster a program or future for a person to become educated, so they can get a job and sustain themselves long-term. That's not to say that even looking at visiting different areas where you get to experience minority groups and putting back into those communities isn't also a great way to leave a great footprint. As Jimmy puts it, it's more important we leave footprints in people's hearts and look out for those opportunities that have a win-win scenario.
I feel sure we're going to learn a lot more about traveling in Vietnam and how we can be that positive change when we visit. Please welcome Jimmy Pham to the show.
Good morning Jimmy. Thank you for joining me on the What About Vietnam podcast. These are certainly unprecedented times we are living in at the moment as a result of the COVID pandemic. I really appreciate your time to come to the show.
[00:04:19] Jimmy Pham: No problem. Hi Kerry. Welcome to all the listeners. Thank you for having me and greeting from the capital of Vietnam.
[00:04:26] Kerry Newsome: Look, we're sitting here at the beginning of August 21. Vietnam is currently experiencing its biggest fight against the Delta strain of COVID. None of us can ignore the impact of COVID on the health of Vietnamese. I'm hoping, in this episode, we will be inspired by you, Jimmy, and your achievements in breaking the poverty cycle in Vietnam. I'm very much looking forward to this chat with you.
[00:04:55] Jimmy Pham: Thank you, Kerry. Thank you for having me by the way.
[00:04:58] Kerry Newsome: Now, that leads me into a special announcement news just to hand. I'd like to take this opportunity to congratulate you on winning the Waislitz Global Citizen Award. Now, this award, I understand, recognizes the excellence of individuals in their work to end extreme poverty. The Waislitz Foundation exists to create a positive social impact locally and globally through innovative projects that empower individuals to meet their full potential and make a measurable difference. Super congrats on the award, Jimmy.
[00:05:34] Jimmy Pham: Thank you. You know what, Kerry? Just to add to it, Waislitz is also based in Australia. All the Australians when I spoke to them a couple of days ago, they were super excited since this is the founding of the Global Citizen Award. This is the first time an Aussie got it as well, so--
[00:05:53] Kerry Newsome: Oh, okay. That's fantastic. I didn't realize.
[00:05:56] Jimmy Pham: This is for Australia as well. [chuckles]
[00:06:00] Kerry Newsome: Yes, nice. That's fabulous. Jimmy, look, for everyone listening who's new to Vietnam and maybe learning a little bit more about the country through my podcast, could you please explain a little bit about KOTO, the social enterprise you started 20 years or so ago, and just how it's evolved over time?
[00:06:22] Jimmy Pham: Sure. I'm Australian Vietnamese. I was born during a very, very tough time in Vietnam called the American War, called the American War, 1972. This is just a detailing of the war. For anyone who fought in the South pretty much knew that the North has won, and then it's time to flee. That was around the area where a lot of people were escaping. You see these horrific pictures of the rooftop of the U.S. Embassy, the helicopters and the tank going through the presidential towers, etc. My family fled. I was two years old. We lived in a couple of countries, and then finally, to Australia at the age of eight. We come from a very impoverished family. We lived out of coupons and all that kind of stuff because we have these six siblings all together. I still do believe to this day we're in a lucky country. We were blessed and surrounded by just wonderful people who helped us along the way. Mom always ensures that we have an education and a roof over our heads. I think that's the best thing I can hope for. I'm having that our values instilled in me and also that educational level and living in a lucky country.
I came back to Vietnam for the first time working in the tourism industry. Vietnam was considered a third-world country in those days. When you see a white face, they're pretty much Russians. [chuckles] You would be considered to be Russians. Poverty was everywhere. So when you see street kids with ulcers and blisters and carrying coconuts that they got from the Mekong Deltas and walk for about 5, 10, 15, 20 kilometers a day and just to sell $1. It breaks your heart. I went for a walk one day during one of my visits. The walk back [00:08:25] that changed my life. I met four street kids. The following two weeks for me was also an eye-opener, but a life-changing situation. That four street kids I've met, I took them to get some toothbrushes and toothpaste and all that kind of stuff, and then ask them to-- I'm going to get them bún bò phở, which is usually the traditional Vietnamese noodle soup. Then, I ask them to come back the next day, and the next day, and the next day for the two weeks I was in Vietnam. The number grew exponentially, 4 to 20, 30 to 50. At the end of the two weeks, I took out about 60 kids to dinner. A coca-cola, an extra bonus was a real treat for them. There you see a lot of stories that you share in my broken Vietnamese at that time. Whatever it is, the most amazing thing about the Vietnamese people, and probably, the Vietnamese street kids commonly known in Vietnamese buddha, which is called the dash of life, is that they have this radiant smile as though they're telling you that they won't be defeated [chuckles] by their circumstances.
I witnessed one particular girl that was a beggar. Her mom was somewhere nearby, always very angry and very upset with life for some reason. Every time she sees me, she put her hand down, "So give me money." That particular night, she ran around in circle where we're sitting, having our dinner. She said, "Mommy, I'll try better tomorrow." Because she didn't make the quota.. Her mom was somewhere nearby with a steel pipe that was beating her. Subsequently, I found out that she never really made it to her adulthood later in life.
I had a very important decision to my career. One was I could be that change like I want to see the world or I can go home and like a lot of tourists before me. That was very tragic. I'm going to send money back to Vietnam. I decided I want to be that change. I went back home. I asked my mom for permission. I was 24 years old. It was 1996. I had $200 in my pocket. I read two books on Vietnam. I got a job as a tour leader for a Melbourne-based company for intrepid. I came back to Vietnam. I spent the next three and a half years traveling around the Indochina regions. Everywhere there were street kids, I would feed them, shelter them, give them money, all that kind of stuff. Typically, the old chance was probably giving them a fish, so they could eat every day. [chuckles] That's what I did, young, arrogant [chuckles] and think you know better. Then, subsequently, in 1999, those nine street kids I looked after in Hanoi in the capital pulled me aside and said-- Basically, I got conned.What I was doing wasn't helping at all. It was just a free ride that they thought that they take advantage of. Instead of seeing that reaction of "Oh my God. I'm never going to talk to you guys again"
So, okay. Let’s find another solution. Let’s work on the next stage, which is basically giving you a fishing rod, so you can go and fish for yourself. There began the concept of Know One Teach One. The idea was very simple, was very much about hospitality, which is a skill that's transferrable. It was about creating a family, which a lot of them don't have, and giving them the skills that they're going to need to gain a sustainable life. The name Know One Teach One came about because we think that education is the key to breaking the cycle of poverty, but education doesn't have to be the traditional sense. It can be learned by doing. The idea was basically you know something, you should pass it on and playing it forward. All that collected, and then, KODA was born in 1999.
In the next 23 years, we built a remarkable program that helped not only the street kids at the beginning, but now, ethnic minority girls kids in conflict with the law, kids that's been trafficked, basically the one that the society calls it "Very difficult to teach." We take them in. We put them through a two-year program, that we include the Australian Vocational Education Training Curriculum - the Box Hill Institute in Melbourne. Then, we created these incredible online skills including I'm going camping with outward bounds, do empowerment, do all this reproductive health, which is all the things that they don't learn from school. Then, lastly is we put them through English specifically designed for hospitality. At the end of the two years, Kerry, we got empowered hospitality professionals that have a sustainable livelihood and all that as well. That shows what the program is.
[00:13:45] Kerry Newsome: it's an incredible story because I know back in 1999. I think you started with nine kids and a sandwich shop. 20 years on, you've influenced thousands and given them life skills as well as tuition in hospitality, which is, as you say, transferable to start their own businesses, work in major hotels, which I understand these individuals now are very sought after for their skills in some of the big names around town. It's an incredible story. Just a quick one. Hindsight's a wonderful thing. If there was anything you would have done differently back in 1999, say, what would that be?
[00:14:36] Jimmy Pham: My goodness. I remember in 1999 because I couldn't cook right, so a lot of people think I'm a chef by trade.
I'm not. I got this woman's cookbook mom sent over. [chuckles] I was learning how to make frittata-
[00:14:53] Kerry Newsome: [laughs] Oh gosh.
[00:14:55] Jimmy Pham: -and all these sandwiches for tourists that were catching an overnight train to central Vietnam, but we had a blast. Well, would I do anything different? Probably. I think there were a lot of things I could have done differently. I think in a very Buddhist [unintelligible 00:15:12] kind of country as such as Vietnam, you believe that everything has a reason and the pathway that you need to walk on. For me, it was a learning curve. I think that we became the first recognized social enterprise. This region along the British Council just released last year that's 1,000,000 social enterprise working and different disciplines here in this region. To give you an idea of the kindness of influence you created just from a small sandwich shop. I wouldn't be able to travel around the world and be an inspiring mentor to a lot of social entrepreneurs. If I hadn't walked that path, if I haven't created-- You have all that experience and being conned and thinking I was on that watchlist. All that created these dynamics I have in me today.
[00:16:18] Kerry Newsome: If I could interject with just maybe small happening when Bill Clinton decided to visit you, I think you were even more under the microscope, weren't you?
Who is this Jimmy Pham? What is so special about his place that Bill Clinton wants to come and visit? So--
[00:16:40] Jimmy Pham: That's correct. After we've been open for two months, we moved to a new location. We had such an incredibly difficult time because I had no money. My mom went and borrowed from the bank because no one at that time believed in what I was doing. Then, I made it to the front cover of an ex-pats magazine called Timeout. Then subsequently, it was very historic because it was the first American president to visit the North. Where we were located? We were in a very tourist spot, which is the first university or the Temple of Literature.
[00:17:15] Kerry Newsome: Yes, a beautiful place.
[00:17:17] Jimmy Pham: Exactly, it was an amazing place where the scholars and all that go to. Anyway, so he came to visit there, and then, he stopped over for lunch. 00:17:27] that surrounded that visit was quite intense. I never thought in my wildest dream that I would be able to meet this guy. Like everyone else, I was in the crowd, looking over to see him and all that kind of stuff. The next thing, I saw this parked black car-
[00:17:48] Kerry Newsome: Limousine?
[00:17:51] Jimmy Pham: -in front of KOTO. I dashed over and said, "Can I help you?" He said, "Is this KOTO?" I say, "Yes." He's coming for lunch. I said, "Oh my God."
[00:18:00] Kerry Newsome: [laughs]
[00:18:01] Jimmy Pham: The next two hour was quite intense. Just in case anyone wondering, he had a diet coke, [chuckles] a latte.
[00:18:09] Kerry Newsome: He had a what?
[00:18:10] Jimmy Pham: A latte, a diet coke.
[00:18:12] Kerry Newsome: Oh, a diet coke. Oh, how funny.
[00:18:14] Jimmy Pham: Falafel. [chuckles]
[00:18:16] Kerry Newsome: Falafel. Okay.
[00:18:17] Jimmy Pham: Yes. That was the very first time that we hosted someone as important as Bill Clinton, the most important man. I can see why he was such a charismatic kind of person [crosstalk] Since then, KOTO hosted-- so the first time we were under the microscope. We're thought as "Why the hell would someone such as important as the President of the United States come and visit this little tiny sandwich shop?" There was a big question mark, understandably. It got vetted severely for the next four years. Since then, we have hosted the Queen of Denmark. We had two Australian Prime Ministers already, the New Zealand Prime Minister. We have the Head of the UN and a lot of Australian ministers came to KOTO. All this was a privilege, but because every time someone important comes and they said that they saw the government sit under this KOTO, we go, "Ah. Yes, it's normal."
[00:19:29] Kerry Newsome: Let’s just move now to how travel has influenced your career and partnerships as I understand you mentioned earlier about when you returned to Vietnam as a young man, it was through the support from intrepid travel, who at the time and still is very supportive of Vietnam tourism and social enterprise. Tell us a little bit about how the travel industry has spurred on your career and played a role in KOTO and just your future direction.
[00:20:02] Jimmy Pham: I feel so privileged and so blessed because my starting days as a tour leader working for a company so much believe in not about dominating a country when you enter it, but actually blend in and be part of the scenery. That values were taught to me. Then subsequently, every tourist that comes to Vietnam through my group gets to hear this. Everywhere we go, we're trying to leave footprints in people's hearts rather than another, and try not to make a big scene that we're tourists and all that kind of stuff. That was very much instilled in me. I was very grateful for that learning. KOTO, for the last 20 years, has this work called the dream trip. Every year, we take our kids to visit and see how beautiful the country is and get them to start to, I guess, benefit or experience what it's like to be on the receiving end of tourism because they're going to work in the tourism industry. They might as well know what it feels like to stay in a nice hotel.
[00:21:11] Kerry Newsome: To be one. Yes.
[00:21:12] Jimmy Pham: To be one. That influenced me. The intrepid days and working as a leader plays a very important part in that. Now, everywhere, sustainability and giving back and all that kind of stuff are applied in everything I do because of tourism. Being a tour leader and know what it's like to go to Ha Long Bay and see rubbish everywhere and food waste and all that kind of stuff. Yes, I think Vietnam has gone a long way, by the way.
[00:21:45] Kerry Newsome: Interesting. I know when we first began chatting a week or so ago, I was mentioning to you I got to go to KOTO as being part of a tour group back in, I think, 2007. That was when I really first got to hear about you and what you were doing with KOTO and all the rest of it. I feel very lucky to be talking to you now, but I think where I'd like to go with this is that travel is becoming such a widely discussed topic in the sense that it expands now into sustainability, responsible travel, impactful tourism, and social enterprise. For the average Joe, sometimes that's a bit academic, and it's quite hard to know what that really means. You've sat on the board in Vietnam for over 10 years with the center for social initiatives program, CSIP. Tell us a little bit about how social enterprise resonates with you.
[00:23:03] Jimmy Pham: Social enterprise, for anyone who doesn't know, the definition of social impact basically, it's using a business model. [crosstalk]
[00:23:10] Kerry Newsome: A business model.
[00:23:11] Jimmy Pham: A business model and principle to achieve a social outcome or a social mission as they call it. You can be any business. What you're saying is that it doesn't have to be difficult because a lot of people do have it in them to try to do something positive, but it's always a form of charity where you don't empower people, you actually give your hands out. A lot of tourism have fallen into that trap when they see that poverty. Like it or not, a lot of people-- If you go to a tourist spot area in Hanoi, there's the Hoan Kiem lake, which is a central lake, you see a lot of street kids there in the old days. You have to question "Why they're there? To be there in the first place, how much premium do they have to pay to be even to be there?" They play to the team because if you really want to help Vietnamese locals, you go to where there are no tourists, go, for example. Just go back on the social enterprise. Basically, what we're asking you to do is basically you can apply anything that you do in your business. Whether you're hiring someone who comes from that background or whether you're using a certain amount of your profit to help and empower people and build capacity and all that kind of stuff for you and your organization, for the environment. certain amount, 51% of the ways that could be donated and things like that.
All this is all part of creating this better world for whether it's environmental or whether it's community or whether it's using technology or whatever. You can actually apply. Where we are in this region? Unfortunately, people still like this whole concept of it makes them feel a lot better when they actually stand and give out handouts. That's what the tourists tend to do. They do handouts. That is not sustainable. You're creating this begging culture. That is so 1990. It has to move forward. If you want to help someone, then go to an organization that helps those kids or gives them a meal. going through that particular rather than give them money. Go to the hill tribes. Don't give them lolly because they have no access to dental, that kind of stuff, hill tribes minority clothing, but they get dengue fevers and all that kind of stuff. All this needs to be considered part of this sustainable and responsible tourism. I think that's very important to be-- When you think of the new way to help, it's about social impact, it's about creating impact, it's about sustainability. When you help someone, make sure that there's a follow-up to it rather than just give them money and don't know what's going to happen to them. Don't do it because it makes you feel good. Do it because it's an investment.
[00:26:08] Kerry Newsome: I think what it opened up for me when I first started to put my social enterprise hat on in travel, which has really only been in probably the last, maybe, four or five years in me thinking that way was to be a bit more curious. There's a lot of, as you say, shops and businesses that are running in Vietnam. You find out if you're curious enough to see that something you're purchasing is going to go back into a certain community. As you say, it's not about I'm handing out something as a charity, I'm getting something in return. I'm buying something, which is a value to me. Then, a portion of that is of value to that community or to that organization.
I invite my listeners to be curious when they do go to enjoy shopping. Even shopping has changed so much in Vietnam. I can remember everything used to be copy, copy, copy. I'd come home with 100 DVDs and CDs. I was terrible, Jimmy. I was terrible at that. As the years and years, I've been going back and forth for about 14 years now, I've become more responsible and more sociable in what I'm doing. When I talk to the owners of these shops and then they tell me about, oh, this was made in such and such and the tribe or the community that makes this. This comes from this. It was just a whole new world for me. It was refreshing to know that was happening.
[00:27:58] Jimmy Pham: Kerry, do you remember 10 years ago in Australia where every time you think about-- 10, even 15, 20 years ago in Australia, if you buy anything organic, it's always sold like ridiculously expensive. It's not affordable to your average, A social enterprise like that, how are we going to be able to grow if the community doesn't support us? You know what I mean. If you want quality products, you want all this availability, and you want accessibility. All that help us to think, you can actually help us to grow. At the same time, the passing down on the price can be passed on to you. You know what I mean. We can be competitive in the market where a hill-tribe shirt is massively produced by a machine. If you help on women economic empowerment projects that do the same thing by buying a lot of numbers, then you can still be very competitive to the one that's been selling. You know what I mean. That's how the logic behind it of supporting social enterprises, that actually with their goods and products and services as well.
[00:29:09] Kerry Newsome: Yes. I think it’s taken a while. You and I have been part of it, I guess, in watching the culture go from cheap, cheap, same, same, that association with Vietnam. I got to see just in a recent trip I did, 2019, with a lady who was buying some beautiful stuff from Vietnam and selling it in the Australian market. The pieces she was buying were from some very enterprising and creative people in Vietnam that were designing garments, jewelry, all sorts of things, which weren't cheap, but wow, it had the value to it. Especially, when you knew some of that money was going to go back into a community where it came from. It was a win-win philosophy, so I was impressed.
[00:30:08] Jimmy Pham: The beautiful thing about the Vietnamese people as well you should know this. Because the new generations, we know 70% is under 30, 32, 35 now, so we have a very young population. A lot of us are now very educated, whereas, before, the parents generation is different because it was during the war and had no access to education. The ability to innovate and create is actually quite high now, so it's not about the copy products and things like that. It's more about so incredible ideas and arts and all that kind of stuff. It's here in Vietnam.
[00:30:51] Kerry Newsome: Where do you see the biggest changes that are going to happen with travel? I'll preface this by saying probably Vietnam was almost reaching over tourism as in the sense of the really big buses turning up into towns, etc. Ha Long Bay was getting chock-a-block with over-tourism. Do you see that there will be some positives to come out of the COVID story along the lines of being responsible to tourism in the future? How do you see it looking post-COVID?
[00:31:31] Jimmy Pham: The tourism and the hospitality, two industries have been heavily affected by the COVID, which is so helpful, [chuckles] the education sector as well. All the schools are closed and the training centers and all that kind of stuff. We're in the midst of that thee industries. I think that everyone needs to eat. I think that the hospitality industry will still need to go back to-- Because like it or not, I think people are craving for this human interaction and social skills and all that kind of stuff that goes with it. I think that should be encouraged, and that should never go away even technology takes over and things like that. I think the way we look at tourism is going to change, being more responsible, more humble rather than going for massive numbers.
I think that people are going to reevaluate the way they do tourism and how it's going to be most useful and be competitive by being creative and innovative as well. How they do their hotels and where they stay and the homestay is going to be different and focus a lot on the wonderful landscape and the natural beauty and the environment aspects of tourism, which we don't do before. It's always about shopping, shopping, shopping, shopping and other kinds of-- It's just one part, but it's not everything about tourism. Vietnam has such a diversity in rich culture, incredible food. Oh my God. The food. I think to take that away in tourism, it's just a big tragedy.
[00:33:07] Kerry Newsome: Yes. I think you're right. My experience with Vietnamese so far has been that they do have a very entrepreneurial spirit. They can pivot in a heartbeat. If there's something they need to change, they can do that. I've seen it already happening in COVID times, where certain businesses were very dependent on travelers now they're becoming home, takeaway businesses, and being able to produce food like that. You're right, Vietnam's got an amazing landscape to experience. I think as much as my podcast is-- for some people saying, "How come you're doing a travel podcast in the middle of COVID?" I go, "Well, I think it's important to keep Vietnam on people's radar-
[00:33:59] Jimmy Pham: Radar. Exactly.
[00:34:00] Kerry Newsome: -and information is gold, isn't it?" When a traveler has been to Vietnam, and they come away, and they've done the Ha Giang Loop, or they've been up into Ba Bể Lake, or they've been to Mù Cang Chải or some beautiful regions where they can explore their social enterprise also in these regions. Those stories are rich for people to hear in the future because when they're trip planning. I'm hoping they'll listen to that, or they'll listen to something that we're talking about, Jimmy, and go, "I want to go to Vietnam with that headset. I want to go with a bit more knowledge when the doors do finally open up again."
[00:34:46] Kerry Newsome: But please remember also that by going to Ba Bể Lake and to Ha Giang and all that kind-- you're actually helping the livelihood of people. They rely on that tourism as a source of income. It's a lifeline for them. Probably if anything there's a takeaway from this tourism, it is actually that. You know what I mean. It's not just only about supporting the big hotels or whatever tickles your fancy, but when you start going to the beautiful hill-tribe minorities, and we'll start going to all these remote areas that Vietnam has so much of, a bundle of, you're supporting locals, yes, and their likelihood. That's responsible travel.
[00:35:29] Kerry Newsome: That's probably a good way to possibly finish up, Jimmy, talking about how does a traveler leaves a positive imprint or footprint on Vietnam. You're talking about us when we do go to Vietnam is opening up our minds and our options as not just, as you say, in the big resorts and things like that, so much more to Vietnam to explore.
[00:36:01] Jimmy Pham: I think when you leave Vietnam, if you can make a friend, then you've achieved your goal. If you leave Vietnam, then you're learning something more than before you came. You've achieved your goal. Lastly, if you go to Vietnam, and you're supporting someone because you're there, then you've done your bid as well. It's why educating is about contributing, it's about leaving something behind. I think for Vietnam, we really want you to come back. We want to be like Thailand, where year after year like you, Kerry, instead of just one time and see you later, I'm not going to come back, we want to come back because of the destinations, for everything from luxury to backpacking to all sorts of stuff.
[00:36:51] Kerry Newsome: Absolutely. People say to me, "Oh, do you think you're going to run out of things to talk about?" I said, "You've got to be joking." [laughs] I could go on until I keel over and talking about what there is to do in Vietnam because, as you said, I go two, three times a year, and every time I visit, I find something else new. I meet a different person. I remember meeting a lovely girl who ran a cooking class. I had a fabulous time with her a few years ago. I've remained good friends with her. As you say, it's life-changing, I think, a visit to Vietnam. It has that effect on you. I feel very lucky.
[00:37:37] Jimmy Pham: For Vietnamese as well, we're very honorable I guess. We're very loyal. I think that's some of the characteristics of the Vietnamese people. That's what makes it a unique travel experience for people coming to Vietnam.
[00:37:53] Kerry Newsome: I just want to say thank you very much for coming on the show and talking with you. Congratulations again on winning the award, very well deserved. I just want to wish you all the best, be safe, and we'll talk soon.
[00:38:08] Jimmy Pham: Thank you, Kerry. Thank you everyone and please stay safe and good luck to everyone.
[00:38:12] Jingle: Thank you for listening. Check out the episode notes for more information.
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