S4-10 Hanoi A Foodies Paradise P2 What About Vietnam - S4-10 A Foodie’s Paradise - Part Two SPEAKERS: Kerry Newsome, Corrin Carlson Kerry Newsome: 00:18 Xin Chào and welcome to “ What About Vietnam .” Sometimes when you travel light with an open mind, and you're not tied down with any commitments that can't be changed, the world can truly open up as your oyster. Let me begin today's program with some background to my guest. It started with a working holiday, I'm told, starting in New Zealand, moved on to Asia, then to Hanoi for a month, then that led to three months and ultimately would you believe to three years. As you will soon find out, this is only the tip of the iceberg for my delightful foodie guest on today's show, Corrin Carlson, who found her heart and passion for food in Hanoi. 01:26 Corrin is a delightful American girl, who is using her acting and education to share her travel journey throughout Asia with her next stop being Europe in September 22, one to definitely watch out for. You may have seen Korean on her very popular "The Fat Passport" TikTok and Instagram pages. As she shares her "Plates of Hanoi" with her followers. Her personality and knowledge really shine through in her posts. And I think she does the same in this show. You tell me. While Corrin was visiting her friends and family in the US just recently, I was able to hook up with her to record the show. Being such a wealth of information about the food localities in Hanoi, and some really great experiences, I just knew one episode wasn't going to cut it. So, I've expanded it into a two-part series. That way you get the full picture of some of her great finds, and she certainly got some super-duper tips via stay in Hanoi. Without further ado, let's welcome Corrin to the program. 02:47 This is part two of the series talking with Corrin Carlson, please welcome her back to the program. So, Corrin, maybe for everybody. Let's talk about some of those most asked questions. We discussed the question of dog meat before, maybe you could address some of the questions you've been asked about food in Vietnam that just can give everybody some peace of mind. Corrin Carlson: 03:17 Yeah, absolutely. Something else that I'm frequently asked about is people ask me all the time: ● Have I had food poisoning? ● What's the water like? ● What is safe to eat and what isn't? I'm really happy to say that pretty much anything that you are going to find is served to you is going to be completely safe to eat. And I understand I might have a stomach of steel at this point. But I have only gotten food poisoning in Vietnam one time, and I have had food poisoning in the US way more than that. So overall food you're going to find is very, very fresh. People go to the market every day to buy their ingredients, both at home and for restaurants. And then also, people are very curious about water and the drinking water in all over Vietnam, but especially in Hanoi. 04:09 So, what you're going to find is that no one drinks tap water. So Vietnamese people and foreigners are all going to drink bottled water. And so, when you're out at the restaurants, when you're in someone's home, even if it's just a little street food restaurant, you'll often find a big tub of bottled water and the dispenser, like you would find in an office in the US or in Australia. And this water dispenser is what everyone drinks out of, and this water is actually quite cheap in comparison to what we think of a bottle of water costing, definitely less than 50 cents for a small bottle and for a big one, maybe $2. So, it's not expensive to drink good water. 04:53 Sometimes when you're at restaurants, the water that will be in broth or maybe even in tea, sometimes that comes from a tap every once in a while. But we're not really worried about drinking water that's been boiled or consuming broth because it's been boiled and cooked. Typically, there's nothing bad in this anyway, it's just you don't really want to drink it too much, because there might be some metals or calcium in it. It's not that drinking a glass is immediately going to make you sick. For example, we brush our teeth with tap water, that's absolutely not a problem. If you're showering and get a little bit in your mouth, that's absolutely not a problem. Also, then any fresh fruit and vegetables. I don't worry about it so much being peeled or unpeeled, boiled or unspoiled. If it's washed in a sink, it's going to be okay for me to eat. Kerry Newsome: 05:44 Really good point. I got really close with a chef in Vietnam. One of the things that she pointed out to me was that even when they do cook, they have on standby, in their kitchens, bottled water. So, on most occasions, they are pouring that bottle of water into whatever they're cooking, if they need to add it to a source or they need to add it to make the broths and things like that. So, they are very cognizant of the water situation, but they will use it to wash their dishes. But as she said, likewise, they're very particular about using the sun sometimes to dry the dishes. And of course, anything that has heat to it, that cooks out or burns out any kind of bacteria, or things like that, that people are concerned about. 06:42 I'm the same as you Corrin, I have never got food poisoning. I have had a little bit of an upset tummy when I first arrived. But that's more about the flavors. And I think some of the herbs are much richer than what we would buy in a supermarket. I don't know whether you're the same. But I think that's just the richness out of the food because it is so flavorsome and it hasn't been through all the processes, or whatever that you would find in your typical supermarket in Western countries. So, I just want to warn people out that may be taking something for an upset tummy, diarrhea, tablets, or things like that. It's just handy to have. And if you need it, you need it. If you don't, and you have a cast iron stomach like Corrin does, or seems to have, then you're going to be absolutely fine. Because I don't want people to be put off. I want people to go with the open mind and try things because there's just so much there to try. You be crazy not to, don't you think? Corrin Carlson: 07:50 Absolutely, I agree. And what you're saying is so right. Sometimes when I go to a place new that I haven't been before with flavors or ingredients I'm not used to, I will bring calcium tablets or like Pepto-Bismol tablets. And I'll take one to two before each meal, at least for the first couple of days when I'm in that transition mode. And then I'm fine after that. Kerry Newsome: 08:12 Yeah, and I sometimes take a probiotic before I go, just to get all those things right in my tummy because I want to be able to eat everything when I get there. Corrin Carlson: 08:22 yeah, absolutely. I would love to talk about some of the more sit-down restaurants and higher-end places so that people can have a whole idea of what they can eat when they're there. Kerry Newsome: 08:39 Yes, please. Corrin Carlson: 08:40 Awesome. So, a couple places that I really love. I'll put up some options that are both in the Hoàn Kiếm area, and they're also in the Tây Hồ area. Even if you're staying in Hoan Kiem, it is so easy to get a grab or a taxi and take it over to Tây Hồ, it will cost you three to five US dollars for your trips. So, I don't want you to think that you're in one area and you can only eat there. Starting at the Hoàn Kiếm area. Some places that I really like would be, there's this lovely French restaurant owned by a couple. The husband is French, and the wife is Vietnamese, and they have this restaurant called Fabrik. F, A, B, R, I, K, and it's right on the cusp of Hồ Tây and Hoàn Kiếm. Absolutely lovely French food. 09:24 It's not super high-end, but you can certainly walk in there in your street clothes after a day of walking around, but you'll be treated to a wonderful meal for lunch or for dinner, steaks, burgers and typical French cuisine as well as those things. Highly recommend it. Another great spot in Hoàn Kiếm area that I like, it is called The Hanoi Social Club. Again, not high ends and they serve meals from breakfast all the way till the evening, they have a great bar as well, kind of Australian-American food. The owner is Australian. And it's actually in an old villa. So, it's about three or four storeys with these beautiful rooms, lots of antiques. It just looks like quintessential old Hanoi. So, the menu- the owner has traveled a lot. So, he has lots of dishes from around Southeast Asia. And then a couple, like I said, American and Australian style dishes as well, especially for the French foods. So that's a great place to go and just hang out, even if it's just for a drink or for coffee. 10:39 If you like afternoon tea, which is something that I'm such a fan of, you find a couple spots that in Hanoi that do it but the one that is quintessential Hanoi, is that you can go to the Hotel Metropole, the old French hotel that's right in the middle of Hoàn Kiếm, and is a stunning place. I'm not going to compare the afternoon tea to something that you would find per se in England or in France, because the flavors are not quite as perfect as they are there. But the presentation is lovely. And you're out in the pool house, which is covered in palm fronds and it's just a like a slice of history. So that's such a joy to get to do and one I would certainly recommend if that's up your alley. Kerry Newsome: 11:24 Wow, I've added it to my list but yeah, keep going. Corrin Carlson: 11:28 Excellent, and as we're moving over to towards the Hồ Tây, the Tây Hồ area, I have a couple of recommendations as well just depending on your vibe. There's this lovely little Vietnamese restaurant called Chào Bạn, and the owner is Vietnamese French and he recently moved back to Vietnam and opens this adorable French bistro style restaurant but with a Vietnamese menu. So, you're going to find lots of typical Vietnamese dishes but done in an elevated way. And everything is done to perfection. I'm getting chills just thinking about it right now. [laughter] Kerry Newsome: 11:32 The food is so good. Corrin Carlson: 12:07 It's a great date spot. It's great with a small group of friends. For dessert they have an AMAZING banana cake that is the owner’s mother's recipe that you cannot go without getting you have to have that banana cake. Another place I really like in Hồ Tây is Pépé La Poule, another French name, but it's actually going to be a French Japanese fusion restaurant, and they have actually a really nice tapas menu as well. This restaurant is actually about like five storeys and at the very top, they have an open rooftop bar area with tables that you can make a reservation for. And they have a great Happy Hour with two for one drink and it's right on the lake. And this is a place you can dress up for a little bit if you want. They have Prosecco and they have these great sharing tapas. I think it's a wonderful place to start out you’re evening before dinner, or you know what, sometimes I go there and then I just end up spending my whole evening there because it's lovely. Kerry Newsome: 13:12 Oh, that sounds wonderful. Corrin Carlson: 13:13 Yes, super good. My last one that I'm going to recommend in the Tây Hồ area is called KOTO Villa . And this is actually a partnership with an Australian organization. And KOTO means 'Know one, Train one'. So, it's actually a training restaurant. Kerry Newsome: 13:30 Oh, this is Jimmy Pham. Yeah, I've had Jimmy on the program. [crosstalk] Corrin Carlson: 13:34 Amazing, okay, so you've heard about this restaurant? Kerry Newsome: 13:38 I go every time. Yes, it's fabulous. Corrin Carlson: 13:41 Great food. They just moved this past spring to a new Villa location. So again, you have that historic, beautiful house with beautiful high ceilings and great artwork. The servers are very endearing, often very shy, but it's such a lovely meal. It's great to hear about their stories, too. Kerry Newsome: 14:03 Yes, it's a social enterprise. So, the staff are actually kids that have had hard lives and opportunities haven't fallen their way. And under the KOTO scheme, they learn to become chefs, and the hospitality industry training gives them new opportunities out there. So, it's a wonderful organization. It has been going on for a very long time. Jimmy Pham has done a wonderful job to steer that for these kids. The restaurant is just a lovely experience always. Corrin Carlson: 14:40 Yeah. Kerry Newsome: 14:47 Maybe at this juncture, to maybe just talk about the evening, and rooftop bars now. It is a thing, isn't it? In Hanoi and there are some really lovely ones. Do you have any favorites? Corrin Carlson: 15:02 Yeah, it definitely is a thing. My favorite is Pépé La Poule, the one that I mentioned, though, that's like a little bit more high-end, though their happy hour is a very good deal. If you walk over, if you're in the Hoàn Kiếm area, there is a street, you can Google it on Google Maps, called Beer Street. It's a street full of basically beer shops with snacks. And often those restaurants, the ones that are tucked back behind the street level, will have rooftop bars. A lot of the hotels around Hoàn Kiếm will have rooftop bars as well. So often when I've had friends come to stay, I've met them at their hotel, and we'll go up to the bar and have a great view and great drinks. Kerry Newsome: 15:47 Yes, yeah. Sometimes it's worth when you are Googling your accommodation, check out to see whether they have some gallery images, which show and depict the rooftop bars, because sometimes, the stairs, to climb up the top, but they just give you such wonderful views of the lake area and the Old Quarter. So, they are definitely handy if they are in your own hotel, so to speak. Corrin Carlson: 16:18 Yeah. Kerry Newsome: 16:19 Do we talk here about Bia Hơi, or we can't not? Corrin Carlson: 16:30 Yes, we have to. Yes. So, while you are in Hanoi, you are going to see these big signs that say Bia Hơi across them, usually they're red, or they will be yellow, with basically a back of background that looks like beer. And this is something that's really common in Vietnam, but mostly common in the north, it's a big part of the culture there. Beer is a huge part of the drinking culture. In Vietnam, the secondary one would probably be rice wine. So, if you're seeing people around you, taking shots, that's what it's going to be. You can walk into one of these Bia Hơis, and you can get a pitcher of beer, or you can get bottles of beer, and you can just have that. But also, these places will have full menus, like in the States, you go to a bar and there's a bar menu, and it's like burgers and fries and this and that. When you go to a Bia Hơi, they have all of their typical dishes as well, usually fried tofu, maybe fried chicken, steamed vegetables, sometimes you'll find hotpot at these places. 17:34 What you were saying before is, when you were looking at places and seeing large menus, how that kind of helps you understand the place. Actually, when you go to be Bia Hơi street, you will see huge menus, they will be very, very large. And often these places are very busy so that they can keep most of these items in stock. But when they're not, I don't even worry about it too much. Because there's been times when I've gone to a Bia Hơi, and I've been like, "Okay, I would like to have this, this and this", and the waiter will say, "Well, we're out of that, that, that, but I can give you these instead." So sometimes you'll see a big menu, you'll be excited about it, and then you have to change your idea about what to order. But you're going to find a lot of things on there that maybe you wouldn't have eaten before, like frogs’ legs, snails, it can be a little bit daunting. A lot of the organs that are eaten, you'll find that on these Bia Hơi menus. So, if you have questions, I always ask the waiter for something safe. Kerry Newsome: 18:32 Yes, you're right. There's a myriad of different Bia Hơi places, isn't there? Because there's the original Bia Hơi place where they make the brew for the day. And literally, once it's gone, it's gone. It's in plastic, some very small cups, and it's not necessarily cold. They will sometimes give you ice to put in it if you want to. But it's as cheap as chips, isn't it? Corrin Carlson: 18:33 Yeah, it's like tops 50 cents US a glass. It is very cheap. Kerry Newsome: 19:10 Yeah, preservative free. It is made with natural ingredients. You drink it pretty much on the day that it's made. So, it's super fresh. But yes, and I'm not sure about the alcohol content. Do you know? Corrin Carlson: 19:26 It's pretty low. Yeah, it's going to be lighter beer, certainly. And it's not free hoppy at all. I would compare it to whatever standard cheap light beer you have in your own country or your own hometown. That's the equivalent of it, but it does end up kind of adding up, if you're not eating with it. Kerry Newsome: 19:46 Yeah. Did you come across any craft breweries, craft beer? Corrin Carlson: 19:53 Yeah, actually, craft breweries are growing right now in Vietnam. Last year, I went, and I visited one of the breweries in Hanoi that makes some of the craft breweries, they come in and make their brews in these breweries and ship them out around the country. So, a couple good ones, you're going to find more in the Tây Hồ area, near West Lake. Two, I can recommend would be 7 Bridges . So, there's a pizza place on Xuan Dieu, it is great New York style pizza. And then the beer is not brewed there. It's brewed elsewhere. But they have all of their own beers on tap, and then a wide selection of other craft beers as well. If you want to go to a brewery, also in Tây Hồ, right on the lake, you can go to Turtle Lake Brewery, they have a great food menu as well. And you'll also see the huge casks where they're brewing, and you'll find a number of their own beers on the menu. It's a great place to hang out, and they have wing nights once a week. And they have that information on their Facebook and Instagram . Kerry Newsome: 20:53 I just did a show on craft brews and taprooms and things, only published last week, and the 7 Bridges is originally from Da Nang. They have a taproom and bar in Da Nang. I'm glad you mentioned the Turtle Lake, because it's another one that we talked about. And there's a blog on the website for everybody, you can go and check and get a list of the craft breweries and places to visit across all of Vietnam. So, Saigon, Hanoi and Da Nang and Nha Trang. So, it's good that you mentioned that Corrin, terrific. Now, can we move into fine dining? Its just that the restaurants that we've covered here, or is there another set above these? Because I've been to some really quite fancy places in Hanoi, that I would say were a real cut above. Corrin Carlson: 22:01 I would say, you can find some really nice steak restaurants. And some of those I've been to around Hanoi, but I personally haven't been to the super classy, fine dining restaurants myself. Kerry Newsome: 22:15 Okay, we had a special show that we dedicated to 'Fine Dining'. I was quite surprised at some of the really outstanding chefs that are coming through Vietnam and bringing new flavors, that really beautiful Asian fusion, to fine dining in Vietnam. So, I'll make sure that I reference that also in the show notes. I got some serious show notes to do here Corrin, you're really giving me a lot of content. 22:51 All right. Now, can we talk a little bit about cooking classes? Did you go down that route in Hanoi? Corrin Carlson: 22:58 Yes. And I personally did not take any cooking classes. But I would be happy to talk about a coffee class that I did take. Kerry Newsome: 23:05 Yeah? Wow! Corrin Carlson: 23:05 I think it's a really great idea. I love cooking classes, and I love getting to go to them. And no matter what country I'm in, it gives me a greater understanding of the food. But what I find is that, especially when I'm in Asia, taking a cooking class, when I come back to the States, and I'm trying to cook for my family, it does not go well. The ingredients just don't transfer so well. But coffee is something that travels well and is also pretty easy once you know how to make it. It's like a great bang for your buck. And it's also very impressive. 23:37 So, I took a coffee class, and I can send you the name of the woman who runs it. But if you're looking on Hanoi Beautiful , which is a group on Facebook, I definitely recommend for recommendations around Hanoi, things to do, things to eat. If you search in that group 'Coffee Class', you'll find this ad for this coffee making class where they can host it or they can come to you with all of the ingredients. So, this was super fun because Vietnamese coffee is a quintessential part of Vietnamese cuisine. And it's so much fun to learn about. So Vietnamese coffee beans are roasted often with butter, or with some other flavorings that give the richness that you taste in it and made with very, very little water. So, the coffee is much thicker than what we're used to in the States or in Australia. 24:27 Then with that, you could have your classic Vietnamese coffee served on ice, served with condensed milk, but something else I really love is coconut coffee. And this is a fabulous drink that you're going to find in Vietnam. Coconut cream is blended with ice and sweetened condensed milk and then a shot of Vietnamese coffee is poured on top of that. So, a coffee making class is a quick class. It doesn't take up your whole day especially if you're just traveling around Hanoi for a day or two. But it gives you a really good idea about the culture and a good idea about the coffee side of the country because coffee houses and cafes are our meeting places. They're places where people hang out, they are places where families go, we're friends go. So, it will have this class, it will give you a better understanding when you're checking out cafes around the city. Kerry Newsome: 25:25 Yes. Did you try egg coffee? Corrin Carlson: 25:28 Yes, of course, you have to go to that, it's quintessential, the original, egg coffee spots in Hoàn Kiếm. It's so famous. And the story is that when the French were in Vietnam, there was a milk shortage. And so, there was a chef in a hotel. And he was trying to figure out what to mix into the coffee for his French customers when he was out of milk, and he didn't really know what to do. So instead, he whipped up eggs with sweetened condensed milk, and he whipped it and whipped it until it created this frothy cream. And he topped the coffee with that. And now it's a very famous part of Hanoi coffee culture. And it's also something that you can make in these coffee courses as well. Kerry Newsome: 26:15 Gee, I've never heard that explanation. That's a really good story. Corrin Carlson: 26:21 Yeah, and when you go into the original spots, in Hoàn Kiếm, they have pictures of the guy who started it, up on the wall, and they have some of his story there too. So that's a great place to check out. Kerry Newsome: 26:39 Lastly, one of the other things that I found fascinating in my trips to Hanoi, was shopping, and just different kinds of shopping for me and a little bit more boutique. A lot of Korean, a lot of Asian designers and designer boutique shops, etc., especially around the Old Quarter. But just keen to know your experience of shopping, be it that, you're a tourist and then you got to live there. So yeah, any point is on shopping for Hanoi. Corrin Carlson: 27:17 Yeah, certainly, if you're starting in Hoàn Kiếm, and the touristy areas, as you're circling the lake, that's where you're going to find most of the souvenir shops. You'll also find art shops, clothing stores, a lot of silk shops where you can buy silk items or have things made. And that's all really fun to do. But, again, a little bit more touristy. If you're going to travel over to the West Lake area, if you're going to be in Tây Hồ, you can go down Xuan Dieu where there's lots of restaurants and things, but you'll find lots of boutiques on that area as well. Personally, I like shopping for locally made clothes in that area because they are often tailored to fit Western body frames, rather than sometimes walking around Hoàn Kiếm, trying to find clothes that fit is a little bit difficult. Kerry Newsome: 28:06 Challenging. Corrin Carlson: 28:06 Yes, I would definitely recommend looking around there. And especially recently, there's lots of very cute boutiques popping up that will be owned by Vietnamese people or by foreigners, with locally made clothes and household items, like makeup and fun haircare and skincare products and jewelry as well. Kerry Newsome: 28:29 Yes, and I've been to some of those boutiques. There's a famous one. Have you been to Chula ? Corrin Carlson: 28:36 No, I haven't been there. Kerry Newsome: 28:38 Yeah, it's a beautiful store. And I think she's got a couple of- but she originally came to Vietnam and started up this design, but they employ local Vietnamese people who are part of the design process, and these people might have some handicap of some degree. I think 75% of their staff are, but their designs, literally feature on some of the famous catwalks around the world. So, her brand is quite strong. So maybe that's one I can share with you for your next visit. So, Chula, C, H, U, L, A. I'll put the links to their stores. Beautiful silk dresses, stunning designs quite famous. And their store is- I think their main one is near West Lake, that's where I saw it. 29:44 Just wanting to finish off with 'best time of the year to visit'. I mean you mentioned and you're right, that they do have four seasons in the north. So, very clear Summer, Winter, Autumn, Spring. But when would you say is that a really good time of year to visit Hanoi so that you can visit a lot of places and do a lot of things? Corrin Carlson: 30:07 Yes, whenever anyone asked me this, I say November, hands down, that is the best. Kerry Newsome: 30:11 November. Interesting, okay. Corrin Carlson: 30:14 So, in the north, and really in the whole country, monsoon season, rainy season is late summer, early fall. So, it starts sometime in August, and then it extends to sometime in October, and it stops in October, then you have beautiful weather, but this past October, it rains literally every single day in Hanoi. So, I don't recommend risking October, instead, November is very, very pleasant. Temperature is going to be still warm. Like as a tourist, you'll probably be walking around in shorts, but everyone else will probably be walking around in pants, because it's a little bit cooler for them. But nice and dry, and also not so sticky. So, it's a great time of year if you want to be walking around and seeing a lot of temples, and a lot of the street life of Hanoi. Kerry Newsome: 31:06 I didn't think about November as a best time. But now, the way you speak about it, it is a very good time. I have been in the winter. And it's been freezing. And that was a bit of a shock to my system. I thought, hang on a minute here. I mean, Vietnam is not supposed to be cold, is it? But guess what? In the north, it's definitely cold. So, something to be aware of for everyone, that there are months of the year where it does get very cold. And if you go up into the mountain areas in particular, you can get- over January. You can get snow in Sapa. Corrin Carlson: 31:42 Of course. Kerry Newsome: 31:43 Crazy. Hey, look, Corrin, really grateful to have you on the show. You've given everybody some great tips, great food. Just a big thank you for being on the show. Corrin Carlson: 31:56 Yeah, it's my pleasure. I'm so happy to talk about this city that I love. And I hope I inspire people to go and also to eat some great food when they're there. Kerry Newsome: 32:05 Absolutely. All right. Thanks again. Corrin Carlson: 32:08 Yeah, have a great day. Kerry Newsome: 32:10 Before we let you go, I thought I would introduce you to a new Cooking Class and Market Tour that's now featuring on the WhatAboutVietnam.com website. It's based in Hanoi. So, after we've been chatting about Hanoi and some of the great foodie experiences, I thought this was a great one to remind you about. What's wonderful about this is, the class is with Chef Duyen. I've done the class with her she's absolutely fabulous, great personality, what she doesn't know about cooking our food, the markets will just blow you away. What's exceptional about this tour and the opportunity to learn from her is that she brings her class now into her own home. So, you get to meet her family. You get to just hear about how food is a big part of Vietnamese culture, their family life and social upbringing. You should try all kinds of cooking classes in Vietnam, but I hope you're going to enjoy this one in Hanoi with the Chef Duyen. Please check it out in WhatAboutVietnam.com , on the Offers page . Until next time, I wish you happy travels in Vietnam.

0996e913-3e85-43d0-94f7-b082c48fd09aInsights into Vietnam travel beyond 2021 Industry experts share insights on 2021 travel Episode 1 S3-01 Travel Industry Experts 00:00 / 31:40 This is the episode for those people who are finding it hard to know what to believe is really happening with travel developments in this region and what source to trust. Our experts are Gary Bowerman and Hannah Pearson. In this episode, you are going to hear a very frank “no holes barred “ conversation where we take a deep dive into how the impact of Covid is driving travel forecasting, travel bubbles, trends becoming evident in the region, consumer confidence or lack thereof, vaccination roll-out, Visa’s and much more. Download Transcript PDF Read transcript

fdafa5c8-3d69-4212-9948-50f4089dab91Lockdown insights and upcoming travel advice Saigons Covid recovery and tourism outlook 2022 Episode 11 S3-11 Saigons Covid Recovery Outlook 00:00 / 39:15 In todays' world of media there are so many news broadcasters competing for your attention, it’s hard to know which one to trust. 
With the advent of Covid’s most devastating outbreak in Vietnam and Saigon happening in 2021, getting local insights in English has been challenging. Albeit, when many other countries around the world are opening up, it's been hard to comprehend, let alone fully appreciate the ferocity of the Delta variant as it forced Saigon into one of the strongest city lockdowns of the last 20 years.
 Michael Tatarski is my guest and in his role as Editor-in-Chief of Saigoneer, the Vietnamese culture and history website, and author of the Vietnam Weekly newsletter is well respected for his local knowledge and reporting in Vietnam and most particularly Saigon. 

I catch up with Michael just as the October 2021 ease in lockdowns is about to happen. In this episode he talks about what it’s been like during the lockdown from July to October 1st, 2021 and what aspirations and advice he has on travel coming out of the lockdown, both domestically and internationally. It's great having Michael come on the show to give everyone the insights into the behind the news stories of Saigon during this devastating time of hardship. 
 I see this as a historic recording. You may wish to listen to this again before you visit, so you can marvel at the city's resilience and determination. I expect a lot of changes and hopefully most for the good.

 Saigon is a truly vibrant and energetic city bursting with heritage that sits alongside creative eateries, secret alleys, coffee houses, river cruising, artisan shopping and roof top bars, that many a news crew were known to drink at in years gone by. 
When you go to visit Saigon, you may wish to listen to previous episodes talking about the Saigon Nightlife, and Best Districts to visit as great guides to maximise your time there. Download Transcript PDF Read transcript

1af68691-5373-4368-b065-0bf15aeb9b4cWorld's largest cave at Phong Nha National Park. Discover Vietnam's Phong Nha Cave - the largest on the planet Episode 9 Discover Vietnam's Phong Nha Cave - the largest on the planet 00:00 / 38:13 Today we take a peek into one of the world's most famous cave systems located in Phong Nha National Park with my guest Ben Mitchell from Phong Nha Farmstay. A home away from home with great food and a friendly crew. Characterized by mountains, tropical forests and underground rivers, this region is known for its ancient limestone karsts and vast network of caves including the world-famous Son Doong Cave, the largest Cave in the world. Ben will introduce you some amazing facts about the whole region, and while its major tourist attraction is the caves, there is a whole lot more to Phong Nha than meets the eye. Thank you to Oxalis Adventure Tours for these Cave images. Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

e6acd571-d597-42f0-a46f-3c845c437070Health and wellness retreats - what to look for. Health and wellness retreats - what to look for Episode 12 Health and wellness retreats - what to look for 00:00 / 25:24 The transformation that comes from taking time out - Yoga, Meditation and Mindfulness retreats is our focus for this episode and I am talking with the lovely Emma Sothern as she talks about what to look for in a retreat in Vietnam. You possibly can't even leave your own country yet, but when you can, you may want to think about a reboot of wellness and healing in a lush, welcoming, delicious, culturally diverse country like Vietnam. But how do you research and plan ahead for this kind of trip? In my experience, it comes from "talking with the locals" This show is still keeping it's main story line, but I am including the link to Emma's new retreat you might be interested in, details here - https://omwithemyoga.com/hoi-an-yoga-retreat/?mc_cid=d30c20d90f&mc_eid=5c941365ba Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S6-E5 How to handle money in Vietnam < Back S6-E5 How to handle money in Vietnam S6-E5 How to handle money in Vietnam 00:00 / 32:15 Series 6 Episode 5 Question: How to handle money in Vietnam. Cash, Cards, ATM Fees and Travel Tips for 2026. Money is one of the biggest quiet stress points for travellers heading to Vietnam. Will your card work? Do you need to bring Vietnamese dong before you leave? How much cash should you carry? What are ATM fees and withdrawal limits in 2026? In this episode of One Question at a Time , I break down exactly how to handle money in Vietnam so you land informed and confident. You’ll learn how the Vietnamese Dong works (and why the zeros and note colours can cause confusion), when cash is essential, where cards are widely accepted, what to expect from ATMs, and how to avoid unnecessary fees. I also share the simple strategy I recommend to balance cash and cards safely — whether you're staying in major cities or heading into rural and remote areas. If you’ve ever wondered whether to rely on your debit card, bring USD, exchange money before travel, or withdraw on arrival — this episode gives you clarity before you land. Listen now and take the guesswork out of managing money in Vietnam. Do you have a travel question or wish to give some feedback? You have 90 seconds. Click to read the voicemail recording policy Previous Next

65dfbab5-85d9-46bf-b803-c8167282dec0Discover and mastermind your Vietnam experiences What About Vietnam - 2-18 How to mastermind your best experience of Vietnam. Kerry Newsome: [00:00:35] Xin chau and welcome to what about Vietnam today, I'm delighted to have Kirsten Pilz on the show because we're going to discuss how journaling or writing can help you explore the reasons why you want to go to Vietnam. Together, we take a real deep dive into how to capture that pre-trip, excitement and anticipation as none of us know when we will be traveling abroad again. We are all looking for ways to do that. Does that explain the boom in travel groups on social media as we all want to keep our dreams alive and chat about where we want to go after Covid? Can a journal tease out those begging questions of why, how, when and if? Kerry Newsome: [00:01:23] And can it be our companion pre the trip during the trip and post the trip? Let's find out. Kerry Newsome: [00:01:31] Kirsten, in her recent Tedex talk, spoke about the healing power of writing as a way to heal and grow. In the context of travel; In this episode, we talk about how a journal can, from the very beginning, help tease out any fears. You might have & expectations. And of course, it helps you document that bucket list of things to do. And we discuss how writing can be the companion to your experience and help you overcome those feelings that you know right now you just can't explain, especially as we venture out after the covid pandemic. Kirsten tells us about her writing retreats in Hoi An and how many solo women travelers joi them. They come to connect with other travelers and to give themselves permission to possibly deal with all feelings that they haven't had a chance to express in a creative way. Let's face it, writing for yourself is a dialogue with yourself. Essentially, you become the author of your own experiences and your own holiday. Dr Kirsten Pils, as she's also known, is a published author, former academic with almost 20 years experience as a teacher and a wellbeing coach who runs her own online business and writing retreats in Australia and Vietnam. And when Kirsten moved to Vietnam in 2016 and set up a popular online business, Write Your Journey.com that allows her to share the tools that helped her transform, grow and heal. Thanks to the pandemic, she's currently in Australia and finishing her memoir, Falling Apart Gracefully. You'll get a real sense for how her and I both feel about travel in Vietnam. And in this episode we share just how we've used writing, journaling and creating trip books to capture our experiences. Please welcome Kirsten to the program. Kerry Newsome: [00:03:39] Kirsten, hello and welcome to what about Vietnam? Thank you for coming on the show. Kerry Newsome: [00:03:45] Look, I'm really excited about this episode, so let's jump right in as we've got a lot to talk about. I thought let's, do this a little bit differently this time. Kirsten, let's just pretend we're taking a leisurely walk together and we just chatting. And I begin our conversation by saying, look, once we're allowed to travel, I would really like to go to Vietnam. I'm seeing it come up quite a lot in the media. And it seems to have had and been fairing really well through the Covid crisis. But I'm not sure, I don't know… would I like it; would I feel safe? Is it really my kind of destination? I don't know a lot about it. I mean, what do you think? How do you think I can kind of process should I approach it, that kind of thing, about whether to go to Vietnam? Kerston Pilz: [00:04:42] Yeah, that's a great question, Kerry. Thank you for that. As you know, I teach writing, personal writing and journaling. And I think a journal, a travel journal can begin way before the trip itself. And as we all know right now, the idea, even just you and I strolling around Sydney is almost unthinkable. So the idea even to go overseas, you know, really makes everybody quite nervous. And so the Journal is really an opportunity to actually get in touch with those feelings, with our fears and maybe also with our reasons for actually going on a journey. Because any trip, whether we're going to a safe place or whether we're going to a really far flung place like I did last year to Iran on a off the year before, takes us outside of our comfort zones. And that is where the journal comes in handy, because any trip is inevitably a form of ourney as well. And that inner journey begins a long time before you standing there at the airport with your mask and perhaps trembling knees. So that is right. Kerry Newsome: [00:05:57] So where do you begin with a journal like that? Does it start with research, do you think? Or like you're talking about that in a journey? I don't know where to start. Why do I want to go to Vietnam of all places? Kerston Pilz: [00:06:19] It was just a statistically named as the second best country, having dealt with Covid just after New Zealand. So it's obviously one of the safer to go to. I personally have been a solo traveller for much of my life and I would say Vietnam is one of the safest countries. But the journal really you can use it obviously for the sort of nitty gritty trip planning, of course, there are Apps around that you could use. But it's also really nice to use a pen and paper journal and to write down your itinerary. And you know, the thing is, we're all at the moment dreaming about going on a trip because nobody knows when we can even go. The borders can close, even state borders any minute. So just use the journal as a way of savouring, of prolonging the sort of pre trip excitement. I recently had a very interesting course with Yale University about happiness. And the interesting thing that these researchers found was that we experience happiness by savouring the moment, and that means the anticipation of the experience. And so there is, for example, a really good place for the journal to actually prolong this experience by writing about your pre trip excitement and sort of tease out the reasons for why you've chosen this country. It might be economical. It's just cheaper or it might be because it's different to other places. So, yeah. Kerry Newsome: [00:08:04] And I think that cultural expectation is also an element. Kerston Pilz: [00:08:09] I know years and years ago when I did anticipate going to Vietnam, you might be thinking I did start to write down things that I want to, I don't know, to get some verification on, because coming from Australia, there was lots of talk about the Vietnam War. Did the Vietnamese like Australians did they how did they feel about us as a country? So I had lots of No. And questions that I want answered during my visit. What do you think what do you say to that? Kerston Pilz: [00:08:45] Yeah, I mean, that's a great point that you bring up there. And it sort of hones in on the idea of our expectations, because inevitably we always look at a foreign culture through our the lens of our own expectations and our cultural understanding and the ways we behave. So I think a journal can be very helpful in that, because also you can often surprised in our trips positively and negatively. And the Journal is actually a way to then reframe your experiences, especially the negative ones, you know, and to really see and dig deep. And I think it's really interesting that you brought up that historical question. How would I feel as an Australian passport holder going to Vietnam? Would they look at me like strangely or hostile? And let me let me assure your listeners that that is actually not the case at all. I always say this. Kerry Newsome: [00:09:47] Go on. Yes, I think having some understanding. I know I read a few books at the time to get a better understanding of that, especially when I was visiting certain places in Vietnam that held a lot of, I guess, historical significance in respect to that. I looked at them, as you say through that lens. But I did refer back to, for want of a better word, my trip book or my trip planning book. Kerry Newsome: [00:10:29] And and I kind of had a list of to DOS and some things that I just wanted to experience to say, gosh, you know, this happened then and how it really transpired. And then to see it now and to be greeted by the lovely people in Vietnam was was just such a welcoming feeling so that when I came back and people asked me again, you know, I could refer, oh, yes, I actually went to that site. And this is what I experienced in places like the Kuchi tunnels and things like that know, I think speak to a lot of historical significance. And I think they do resonate with your upbringing, with your emotions, your feelings and how forefather's, I guess, could have experienced Vietnam very differently. Kerston Pilz: [00:11:18] Yes. I mean, it was interesting. The very first time I went to Vietnam, I went with a friend in 2004. And I grew up in Germany. My father grew up in East Germany. So Communist Germany. And I had this flash, this communist flash. I had this nostalgia in Hanoi. I couldn't get over the similarities. And I sort of felt very unexpectedly sort of a connection. Even though I grew up in West Germany, I still felt this connection between part of the Germany where my father grew up and Hanoi with the communist paraphernalia and all of that, which really, really surprised me. And I had to yeah, I had to actually go to my journal to tease that out because my friend that I was traveling with, she couldn't really understand. She kept laughing at me. So that's the other thing that that's the other thing that the journal where the general comes in handy is also a companion, whether you travel alone or not, because obviously when you travel alone, it is very handy companion, but also when you travel with a friend, because often you do get very different reactions to places. And also you may know your friend in Australia or wherever you come from and you have that familiarity. Kerston Pilz: [00:12:38] But once you both step out of the comfort zone, you might you might react to that other culture in a very different way. You might feel challenged in very, very different ways. I had this experience with my friend. She's a very much an extrovert and I'm much more an introvert. And so I actually liked the fact that I could lean on my journal and just have a quiet time to process and say, can you just give me a moment? I just need to write down what we saw on today. And so, yeah, that's another aspect of the journal that a lot of travelers will find useful. Kerry Newsome: [00:13:15] Yeah. So what you're saying and I mean, I, I kind of hold you up there in the writing, journaling speech and certainly connected to travel. And, you know, your recent TED talk spoke a lot about the healing power of writing. So if we if we're talking to my audience and saying, OK, the writing aspect can actually begin well before you leave, it can become part of your, I guess, inner exploration and research technique to decide whether or not you do want to go to Vietnam. Kerry Newsome: [00:14:00] I mean, I'm hoping even my podcasts are part of a person's process of research and understanding of the country, because we're talking to people like yourself who have been to Vietnam, lived in Vietnam and traveled extensively. Kerry Newsome: [00:14:18] So you've got a lot to share. So if I was to kind of point to some beginnings of that writing journal that we're starting,… at the very beginning of the process, what about if we touched on some of the things that you would advise people to include in that journal, like we've mentioned, things like stepping out of their comfort zone. What advice would you give to a person to start the journey? How could they kind of begin? Did I write a list of things I'm worried about my number one, the food or the traffic? I didn't speak to that a little bit. Kerston Pilz: [00:15:05] Yes, sure. So first of all, my expertise, like you just said there in my TED talk, it was the healing power of writing. And that sort of goes hand in hand with that idea of the inner journey, because as we said at the beginning, any trip is a step outside of the comfort zone. And it's really confronting and again, especially during these times when everything is so uncertain. And so the list is actually a very, very good way to turn. I often use that in my writing groups, as in writing prompt; Write a list of the fears you may have or write a list of the preconceived ideas you may hold towards that country and really be honest with yourself. And that's the beautiful thing about a journal, is a place where you're meant to be brutally honest because it's only for yourself. And that's also the sort of fabulous thing in the way about a journal is a dialogue with yourself. And you can be frank. So this is a very good place. And you could list my favorite top things. I want to see my Vietnam bucket list. That could be a list, and then you could go off and do your research. The things I definitely want to do and achieve in this trip, or maybe a list about what do I want to get out of this trip? Do I want to go for relaxation, cultural awareness and deepening my cultural awareness of this country? Or maybe a mixture of both so the lists can be themed? My fears and I think that's the other thing we often do, because we do live in the culture of positivity and so on. We often don't give ourselves permission to actually think about our fears and travel inevitably brings up a lot of fears. So give yourself permission to write about those fears. Kerry Newsome: [00:17:06] Yeah, and then I go, you know, I was just going to be checking up to ask when you did visit Vietnam for the first time back in 2004, did you have a list of things that you wanted to experience or fears that you might have had preconceived ideas or anything like that? What was on your list? Kerston Pilz: [00:17:29] Well, you know what? Kerston Pilz: [00:17:30] This is actually quite embarrassing to confess, but I actually was quite overworked at the time and I just needed a break in. My friend said, let's go to Vietnam. And I was so silly I hadn't even brought a lonely planet or we hadn't we hadn't actually planned anything. We were on the plane and because I hadn't seen my friend in a while. So, you know, sometimes how it is, you catch up with a friend as you go on holiday and chatting, chatting, and then we touch down. And I think it was like going to a city and we're like, actually, hang on, we want to stay tonight. I mean, so I wouldn't advise that I normally don't travel like that anymore. Kerston Pilz: [00:18:06] I'm also a little bit older now. I do get a little bit anxious these days. I usually have the first five books. And so here we are standing at the taxi rank, going on with the with the picnic a quarter. Where does one go? Kerston Pilz: [00:18:21] So, yes, I would definitely advise doing that research in advance and also doing the research on like I don't know how much is a taxi to cost and how do I get from the airport to town without feeling ripped off because you don't want to start your. Journey in a negative way. Feeling, oh, my God, that taxi driver, this rarely happens in Vietnam because it's so organized, so. Yeah, yeah. Just things to think about. Kerston Pilz: [00:18:51] So I think when you're young and you do kind of fly by the seat of your pants in a way, and that's totally cool. But I think as you do get older, you become a little bit more of a thoughtful traveler. Do you think? Kerston Pilz: [00:19:07] Yes. And also depends how much time you have. Like back in the day when I have a month, months of backpacking and you just go where the wind blows you, that's that's cool. That's part of that experience. But if you're working and your annual leave is very minimal in Australia, we typically get 20 days that that is not very much to play with. So that's where, again, the journal comes in handy in the trip planning because you really want to figure out, OK, do I need one night in this place to I should give myself three nights here. Do I want a rest stop in the middle of the trip? Because when often when we cram too much into our journeys, we can come home feeling more exhausted than before we left. So definitely I would advise or I these days plan a little bit more carefully, although I didn't do that on my last trip to Iran. Kerston Pilz: [00:19:59] Again, we just had the first night booked, but that was because there was very little information available. Kerston Pilz: [00:20:05] Vietnam has a lot of information and the What About Vietnam podcast is, of course, one of them. So I would advise to do so, because we don't know when we'll travel. So use this time to do a little bit of armchair travel and use the time to write about and start that dialogue with yourself. What do I want to get out of this trip and how do I expect it to change me? And what are my fears like we said before? And what are my preferences, especially if you're travelling with other people that can often be a clash. One person wants to be super active, the other one maybe wants to hang more by the pool. So how do you negotiate that and so on? Kerry Newsome: [00:20:47] Yes, and I think that's something definitely to consider when you are traveling either as a family or, as you say with a friend or or even in a group. Sometimes there'll be a dynamic in that group where one person is a “doing” person or group and the other person's a bit more of a chill kind of aspect. Just on the on the writing side of it, you've got me thinking now about journaling. And I'm I'm a bit of a fan of pen and paper and beautiful little kind of notebooks. And that's probably very old fashioned. But about capturing those highlights, I tend to take lots of photos and I do. And I have created over my life various trip albums so that includes everything from the first itinerary to the ticket, to hotel bills, to tickets to shows, things like that. I include all in a trip album so that I can go back and say, gosh, you know, I went to Vietnam back in 2010 and I was only paying so many Dong for a hotel. And now 10 years on, I'm paying this in a hotel or the sophistication is increased enough that I certainly think both you and I both seeing Vietnam evolve and become a much more sophisticated country and able to deal with the the Western traveller and in a much more, how shall I say, luxurious way than in the past. it had. And I mean, what are your thoughts about trip books versus trip Apps, versus photo like this is your space. Kerry Newsome: [00:22:52] So tell me more about your thoughts on that. Kerston Pilz: [00:22:56] Kerrythank you for that question. I am quite active on Instagram because I love taking photos, but like all of us, you can take one hundred photos and then you go back to work and suddenly you forget about them. And one day you need to change phone and you go, oh my God, I haven't even downloaded those photos or done anything with them. And the same can be true for Camera. And I used to travel with a big camera. Kerston Pilz: [00:23:26] So I really like the old fashioned journal for several reasons. One is what you just mentioned. You use it like a scrapbook and it becomes sort of this lively record to help you track your trip, you'll a treasure that more than the photos that he never downloaded from your iPhone or your camera because like you said, you can stick receipts, entrance tickets from the temple or the pagoda in there, and it becomes sort of a visual record, a scrapbook. And the other thing is a journal slows you down. And one of the reasons we take trips is to actually get away from our everyday life. Often we feel a bit burnt out with our jobs, our routines. So traveling is a way to slow down. And writing pen and paper is a way to slow down and to really get in touch with your deepest thoughts and reactions. So I really am a great advocate of getting yourself a beautiful book, you know, with a nice, sturdy cover. Or you might even buy it there if you. That's another. Yes, it's a beautiful picture. Kerston Pilz: [00:24:37] Yeah. Combined Vietnam and books with handmade paper and lovely. Lovely. And the other thing is, of course, I find people, you know, suddenly discover their creativity when they write. And I get so many people in my online courses who feel very, very shy to admit to themselves that they have creative stirrings. But we all have them. But they get sort of taught out of us, when we grow up. We leave the crayons in the sand in the kindergarten and then we grow up. But journaling is a is a very lovely way to get in touch again with your creativity and discover things about yourself that you didn't even know you had interest in yourself. And so savour that time, you know, and yeah, I think it's a wonderful tool to also to document your trip. It's a practical way to organize a stay organized. I just use Instagram because I like it and it helps me connect with my community. But I actually love the journal. Absolutely. Kerry Newsome: [00:25:49] So now what do you think it is about Vietnam that does seem to inspire the “writer” in us? I know one of my trips I had the privilege to attend one of your writing classes and I really, really enjoyed it. And I think retreats or writing retreats is kind of a unique thing in itself. But there's something about Vietnam that you mentioned slows you down or there's something about the nature of Vietnam in some places like Vietnam, where where you hold your writing retreats. Kerry Newsome: [00:26:35] Tell us a little bit about a writing retreat and what people can expect to experience in that. Kerry Newsome: [00:26:43] Yeah, great question. And also, I just wanted to say that you came to was the very, very first class I ever held, so good to know, as I was very nervous that day. But that was four years ago. Kerston Pilz: [00:27:00] We actually went online for our writers group and this year we had to do advising. So I listen to some episodes of your wonderful podcast and you have talked about yoga retreats and skin wellness retreats. Kerston Pilz: [00:27:17] So you can obviously do a range of retreats. And Vietnam is still a virgin territory, if you like. And as was discussed in some of your episodes there when it comes to retreats. A writing holiday is quite a unique way to experience a holiday. Typically, I get a lot of women, but that's just because I sort of advertise that way. And often they come because they may want to travel by themselves, but they feel a little uncomfortable if you just go all by themselves. So this retreat gives them that container of safety and community. And I also often get people who are not necessarily aspiring to publish books or to write creative fiction. Most of the people who come to my retreats are actually there to connect with themselves. So they use that like other people might go on yoga and meditation retreat. And we actually combine yoga and meditation and mindfulness with the writing practice. And so they really come to take that deep dive into themselves and to dwell on that dialogue with themselves. Often they work through episodes in their lives that may have been traumatic or difficult and. So they want to find that sort of next chapter, ….because really writing symbolically is all about closing one chapter and opening another one. And that is why I love that, …that you open it and it's a blank page…. and you can put into it whatever you want. Kerston Pilz: [00:28:54] It really is up to you. You are the author of your trip and also of your life. And the other thing, of course, about Vietnam is that because it's not sort of so oversaturated, from an Australian perspective. We know there's a lot of travel historically that has gone to Bali. It's sort of still more new and fresh. And a lot of people love that sort of or what I do with my students on retreat or participants is we go to the markets, and we do a cooking classes. I also take them on excursions and then we write about it. What did you see today that really surprised you or describe, I don't know, the smile on the lips of a vendor that you didn't have a common language with at the market? You still had a really profound experience connecting with that person. Describe that. Describe the feeling of riding through the rice paddies. What did you see? And that is another way of slowing down and connecting with your senses and again, connecting with yourself in ways you don't normally do when you are following your routine. You're going through life on autopilot, busy getting through the day. So it's a really lovely way to expand yourself, your understanding and you're opening yourself up to the world in creative ways. Y Kerry Newsome: [00:30:21] And and it's a lovely way to record your actual experience at the time, because sometimes we are so busy where we're getting on the cable car. We're going up with the kids to the top of the mountain, to Ba Na Hills or whatever. And just to make sure at the end of the day, we captured something that someone said or, as you say, the smile on the girl's face, as she said, welcome to the hills. Or, you know, we very rarely give ourselves the privilege of that because this gets in the way. I know one of the things that I've written about in Vietnam quite a bit is in particular in Hoian is the colours. I'm always struck by the colour and how the colour and the colours I experience influenced me and my sense of happiness, my sense of joy, my sense of well-being, my positivity levels. I always come away from Hoi An, feeling very lighter andbrighter, more colourful, more creative, more open, more even friendly. I think I'm even a nicer person. Kerston Pilz: [00:31:46] Yeah, I think that really resonate with me because as you know, I lived in Hoi An up until I became stranded here actually almost a year ago now. And I do. I mean, you make me really nostalgic. Kerston Pilz: [00:31:59] Of course, there's a beautiful. Yeah, and the beautiful thing about the Vietnamese is the smiles, even though I often think they have gone through incredible hardship, inconceivable trauma, and yet they're smiling and they're resilient and they live in the moment. And again, writing is actually about capturing the experience in the moment, documenting the story as it is unfolding. And so there's a point of connection there when we slow down and slow down to that very moment where I feel I can connect better with the locals because they live in the here and now. It's not about the past, even though that past could go away terribly on their minds. And I'm sure it does. But it is about living now and expressing that joy and that happiness. And the one thing I want to say to then is I do with my community is to encourage them to write a gratitude journal. And that's something you can also do with your journal when you when you travel, because like you say, we are so busy. Sometimes we go up and I remember meeting somebody and today I have to just get the tailor down and then I have to get this done. And then I still have to go to the then why do I have to do that on a holiday? You don't actually have to go to the tailor. You could just relax so long to capture what you have actually experiences to write a gratitude journal. Five things I saw today that made me smile. I mean, you could do that every day, but especially on a trip , it's just such a beautiful record to take home. And then even on the days when you're not feeling so happy and you know you're anxiously awaiting your next holiday, you might just go over that and say, oh, my God, that was so simple and it was so profound and so wonderful. So, yeah, it's the simple things that often end up so special. Kerry Newsome: [00:34:02] And I think when someone then asks you down the track, gosh, you know, why do you want to keep go to Vietnam? What is it about Vietnam? Kerry Newsome: [00:34:12] Even if I've momentarily forgotten, which doesn't happen very often, as you know. But if I momentarily why do I care or why did I go to that place? Kerry Newsome: [00:34:24] What was it about Ba be Lake, I am in love with it. Was it the stillness? Was it the serene environment? Was it the beautiful, warm family that I stayed with at a homestay? Kerry Newsome: [00:34:39] Was it that really beautiful meal that I had with them when it was cold and we were all rugged up and we really couldn't converse because obviously my Vietnamese is hopeless. Kerry Newsome: [00:34:52] However, we did have a connection through our smiling with each other, with our handshake's, with our gestures and things like that. How can I convey that this is this is one of the things that has spurred me on with my podcasting. And I think from what I know about you, has spurred you on with your writing classes, and your retreats in Hoi An and things like that, because it comes out in in what you deliver and what you give and what you invest into those retreats. Kerry Newsome: [00:35:26] I want to finish because we are getting away with time. We do kind of touch on why Vietnam, why go to Vietnam and not Bali now? I have no answer to that. What would be your answer to why Vietnam? Why not Bali? Because we both know both places. Kerston Pilz: [00:35:47] Yes, I actually lived in Bali for a year in 1986, believe it or not, when it was very different. So my reason for not going to Bali, I guess it's because I'm nostalgic for the Bali ,that no longer is. But it's also I guess it has that reputation. I guess, you know, people go there for parties and it's very crowded. I actually recently did go to just before I came back to Australia, I transited via Bali and I spent a week there and it was just so busy and it sort of had lost a lot of its charm. Kerston Pilz: [00:36:22] And I guess its become very commercialized I mean, obviously any country in SE Asia is booming. It was booming before Covid. Also, you watched the rice paddies disappearing and so on. But I feel there's a creative energy in Vietnam, especially with the young people. It has a very large young population. And maybe because it had communist oppression and the war before that for a long time, there is sort of an opening up, a burgeoning creative energy that you often experience in countries that awaken to something new you had it in. So I feel there is, yeah, a creative spirit and adventurousness that is, perhaps was…. in Bali years ago and is no longer there for me anyway. You know, with the young people opening beautifully hipster, I don't know, coffee bars with those, those decorations, the tiles. And suddenly I remember one reason why I did move to Hoi An in 2016, which is not so long ago because it didn't have a yoga center. It was that here that Natalie who opened the first yoga center and yoga and up until then it didn't have a yoga center. And so everything was still new. Virgin territory like it is saturated now with yoga centres and especially after that book by Elizabeth Gilbert – Love eat pray But still Vietnam is still sort of Virgin territory in many respects. And that's what I love. There's a freshness and the newness. Kerry Newsome: [00:38:03] Kirsten, look, it's been lovely having you on the program. I hope we together have inspired people to have a look at the option when they are investigating a trip to Vietnam, to look at the idea of starting even before that armchair version of research and armchair version of an inner journey, as you say. And I'll definitely be putting the links to your retreat's both in Hoi An, and at Mission Beach is which is where you're sitting at the moment, correct? Yeah. Just lovely to have you on the program, as always. And lovely to catch up with you. Kerston Pilz: [00:38:47] Thank you so much. And you make me a little bit nostalgic now, but just to leave your listeners with this, do not be afraid. Vietnam is a wonderful place and it's it's safe. Thank you for listening. Kerry Newsome: [00:39:03] Check out the show notes for more information. What about Vietnam? Don't forget to subscribe, write and review and stay tuned for more fun adventures in Vietnam.

9a6d1613-985b-413d-9059-740f70feef70 Rich in history and culture and yet bursting to change. What About Vietnam - Series 3 - 9 Street life experiences in Hanoi through the lens of a camera [00:00:36] Kerry Newsome: Xin chào. Welcome to What About Vietnam. When I was deciding just how I would do justice to my guest on the show today, Lavonne Bosman, it was kind of hard until I looked at her photographs. Her photographs depict Hanoi street life. They are the most amazing pieces of art because they show so much detail. I hope you welcome her to the program. She comes to Vietnam obviously through the lens of her camera, inspired by friends that were already in Vietnam, who were boasting about the scenery people, and places to explore. It's crazy how this happens. When you've been to Vietnam, it's very easy to leave with aspirations that you want to come back. You're always sharing with people and telling people just how great it is. I can understand how she was inspired by her friends. Lavonne is a South-African-born. As a photographic artist, she offers up the most insightful, and as she calls it, photographic art depicting disappearing worlds. I think that's just a fabulous way to describe her art. She landed in Hanoi in 2019. While teaching English since her arrival, she's been expanding her portfolio with the street culture of the city. Personally, I really love street culture. In cities like Hanoi, when the old and the new co-exist, sometimes just sitting having a coffee and people watching can tell you a lot. You will hear from Lavonne how she loves to delve into some of the more interesting parts of the Old Quarter. She's got some great insights into special treats to watch out for even traveling late at night. Just her confidence as a solo traveler, I'm sure, will help people who are thinking about coming to Vietnam possibly as such. If you are interested in hearing different viewpoints of Hanoi and one from a seasoned traveler with an eye on cultural diversity, this episode will mean something to you. You will be able to view and ultimately purchase Lavonne's work as I've made sure I have included all the links to her in the episode notes. Please welcome Lavonne to the show. [music] Hello Lavonne. Welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. [00:03:25] Lavonne Bosman: thank you Kerry. Nice to be here. [00:03:29] Kerry Newsome: that's good. Now, I'm talking to you in Hanoi in the middle of COVID. Things are still a little bit tight there at the moment I understand. [00:03:39] Lavonne Bosman: yes, rather tight I'd say. It's been quite a strange feeling so far. [chuckles] It literally feels like we've been in lockdown for months already and with no end in sight. They give us a date. It just gets extended every time. At least we know we're still far from the situation that's in Saigon. We're still okay. [00:04:03] Kerry Newsome: exactly. Yes. While that's not much comfort, it is some comfort. I just want to give my listeners, I guess, a little bit of background out on you. You are a keen travel photographer. I've seen your African portraits. They are just amazing. You've done a little bit of trolling around the world, the Swiss Alps, I read. I think, from what I see, you do definitely have that fascination with developing countries and- [00:04:41] Lavonne Bosman: yes. [laughs] [00:04:42] Kerry Newsome: -the diversity of street life. I'm really glad you've got that because I think street life is also fascinating. Tell us what drew you to Vietnam in the first instance. Why Vietnam? [00:05:01] Lavonne Bosman: yes. As a photographer, like we just said, I love the diversity of life, I love the contrast of seeing the ancient traditional kind of life that might be at risk of disappearing because of rapid development. That's probably my main attraction to Vietnam, apart from my first introduction to it as a child when I saw this American series Tour of Duty about the American soldiers in Vietnam. I saw a little bit of the country lifestyle, the bamboo ,that kind of thing. Also, I saw pictures of Saigon that really, really fascinated me, all the traffic or the crazy chaotic traffic, all the different characters on different types of transport. You just, "Wow." It just looks amazing. Visually, I was very attracted to Vietnam. I find it very interesting. Yes. From South Africa, there's also a bit of this element of the first world and the third world that exists side by side. That kind of thing is what you see in Vietnam, especially Hanoi. I haven't been to Saigon, but in Hanoi, that exists as well. [00:06:29] Kerry Newsome: yes, definitely. You're right. That, I think, is an attractive feature in the sense that I like the fact that it still holds some of its traditional aspects as in the people, the food, the street food, and just the street antics, I call them. You'll be wandering down the street, and you'll go, "Oh my goodness. How am I going to explain that to the people back home?" Because we're so urbanized where we come from that-- Yes, it's a little bit hard. They go, "Are you joking? Do they do that just for the tourists?" "Ah, no. Actually, they do that every single day. That's their routine." [00:07:15] Lavonne Bosman: right, right. I often stumble upon a street sometimes very early in the morning unexpectedly where I feel like I just walked into an old movie set. I just went to some totally untouristy place where people are living their absolute daily lives. Wow, I love that, [chuckles] all the smoking in the air and a pig or something that is just lying over a bike on route somewhere. [00:07:47] Kerry Newsome: yes, exactly. [00:07:50] Kerry Newsome: I don't know whether you've been to Train Street, which is a main street in Hanoi. [00:07:56] Lavonne Bosman: yes, it's one of my favorites. [00:07:58] Kerry Newsome: yes. I had a very delicate day there where I was desperate to get this video and to get this photo. Of course, you would know what that's like. I lent over. My girlfriend was with me. She was very nervous that I wouldn't get out of the way because it's very close, isn't it? [00:08:22] Lavonne Bosman: that's dangerous. [laughs] [00:08:24] Kerry Newsome: it's very dangerous. Now, I'm not sure they did shut it down for a while there. I don't know whether it's still shut. I hope so for safety. [00:08:32] Lavonne Bosman: we'll see after COVID, what's the deal there. [00:08:34] Kerry Newsome: what happens, yes. You're right. On that same street, there was a couple of chickens that were in a cage. There was a little lady. She was hunched over. She was cooking something on a little gas stove and-- [00:08:51] Lavonne Bosman: right on the train tracks. [laughs] [00:08:52] Kerry Newsome: it was right on the train tracks. Exactly, I know. I guess for you as a photographer, that is street life in all its naturale, isn't it? [00:09:02] Lavonne Bosman: yes. I must say the day I first went to Train Street, I really felt like I was in a different country. Even those chickens don't look like normal chickens. I think they call them dinosaur chickens. They just look so ancient. [00:09:19] Kerry Newsome: Yes, I know. Everybody moves their bikes out of the road. They collapse their chairs from the side. They close their windows. I think it goes through at three o'clock in the afternoon. I think it's twice a day that it actually goes through, so you have to be there on time. [00:09:34] Lavonne Bosman: Something like that. Yes. They're quick and efficient. When the train is on the way, within three minutes, everything's backed up. [laughs] [00:09:42] Kerry Newsome: absolutely, absolutely. That's just one street scene, isn't it, Hanoi? There's lots, lots more. Talk to me a little bit maybe about some favorite areas of yours because I know you're walking around, and you're trying to find some-- I don't know, just moments that you could capture because obviously they come and go so quickly. Do you have some favorite places that you seek out? [00:10:12] Lavonne Bosman: okay. Well, the Old Quarter in general is a favorite place. You can't go wrong. If you're a tourist, for example, and you don't have a lot of time, and you just spend time in the Old Quarter, you will be amused for days. [laughs] Train Street is also part of the Old Quarter, so you'll find that there. Of course, Hanoi is famous for having all these interesting streets where they sell all of the same products in one street. One of those streets is the bamboo street that is just so beautiful to me. You just see all these bamboo products, mostly some things like ladders and just long bamboo poles of different thicknesses. It just creates quite a nice decoration. Usually, the Old Quarter has quite a lot of trees. There's always this green shade atmosphere that I really love about it, and of course, so much happening. It's so bustling. Your eyes spin when you are there for the first time. Much to see, all the different traffic that goes by, people on bikes carrying the strangers loads that you just can't believe they can actually balance that. Yes, the Old Quarter is great. Of course, all the food that you can find there can also entertain you for days. Then, some other parts that I love, the plant street in Hoang Hoa Tham street. That's not far from the Old Quarter, but it's something that I discovered quite a lot later. I somehow didn't know it was there. I thought I walked into heaven the day I started walking down that street. That was just amazing, this long, long street, so many different shops selling plants. Also, they sell fish. There are birds in little cages. It just feels a bit like a plant and a zoo streets kind of-- [00:12:17] Kerry Newsome: A menagerie, yes. [00:12:18] Lavonne Bosman: Yes. [laughs] [00:12:20] Kerry Newsome: I think I might have stumbled into that street. You're right. It is fascinating. They do have birds in that area. [00:12:28] Lavonne Bosman: Yes. You could just spend hours just walking down the street and just be like, "Wow, it's just so beautiful and so abundant." One of my other favorite places would be the flower market in Tây Hồ, the Quảng Bá flower market, which I did my one little photo project late at night. It was about 3:00 AM. [00:12:53] Kerry Newsome: wow, that is a life project. [00:12:54] Lavonne Bosman: yes. If you want to experience something a bit different-- Of course, it's still overstimulation in a way, but so incredible that time of night, especially if you happen to be there before the lunar month because then it's extra bustling. It feels like you're in a really crazy action movie, just hooting and shouting and organizing. Bikes and trucks, everything's moving. Then, you just walk around there, and you just see everyone doing their job, this whole community working together. It's quite serious. I wouldn't go there in a big tourist group at all. If you are alone, that would be the best because you might get in the way and maybe get run over by something. [laughter] The local people might just push you out of the way to save your life a few times. [chuckles] Yes, that's been one of my favorite experiences just when I think of all the sights and sounds and even the smell of the flowers. There's this coffee smell. Everything was just so beautiful, and seeing the people working so hard all through the night. Everyone is on a mission. They have something to do. Yes, I just love that. You can see that people are serious, but there's a lot of smiles in between. Everyone's close together because it's very narrow. [00:14:23] Kerry Newsome: You're right. It is a feast for the senses, isn't it? [00:14:28] Lavonne Bosman: Absolutely. [00:14:28] Kerry Newsome: you've got all of those beautiful smells and mixed in with coffee. Then, you've got tight squeezers with motorbikes, intermingling with people. All the color, I think the colors [crosstalk]-- [00:14:41] Lavonne Bosman: a lot of color. [00:14:42] Kerry Newsome: Listen. When I think of Vietnam, and I try to describe to people why I come home so uplifted, it's because I think there's just so much color. I think it fills your senses. I guess from your point of view with a photographic eye, you look at the mixture of colors. Some of the work that I've seen and your beautiful little postcard book that you do, which by the way people, I'm going to put the link in the episode notes too because Lavonne's work is beautiful in this. You probably need the big printable version that you can put on your wall because I agree with her, there's a lot in-- Anyway, I think it's important we get the message to our listeners today about that color sense that comes into a visit and the smells. Not all smells are fabulous, but-- [00:15:43] Lavonne Bosman: no, not all of them. [laughs] [00:15:46] Kerry Newsome: there's going to be the odd rubbish that you're going to see and all of this kind of thing. If you can lift yourself above that-- [00:15:54] Lavonne Bosman: right, exactly. You need to just focus on the beautiful things and ignore the stinky things. [laughs] [00:16:01] Kerry Newsome: exactly, exactly. Just take in the ambiance. I know even from the Old Quarter, it's lovely to walk around the lake also in the afternoon. You'll see people doing t'ai chi and dancing. When do you see that in a city ?? [00:16:22] Lavonne Bosman: right, yes. There's a park to the south of the lake. I can't remember what it's called, but it's one of the main parks. If you go in there, also, you see the groups of people doing exercise. The trees that are there are also ancient and so beautiful. It's amazing in the city. [00:16:42] Kerry Newsome: once again, there are certain traditions. There's certain connectivity with people, families come together, groups come together that do it regularly. They meet there. Some of the older generations will come and sit and play games together. Sit on a park bench, you'll see some old guys that sit there and maybe smoke or something like that. It's a scene. You said before, you could almost put it in a movie, couldn't you? Just as it is. [00:17:18] Lavonne Bosman: yes, there's a lot of it that just looks like it's a movie right there. Who scripted this? [laughter] [00:17:26] Kerry Newsome: exactly, exactly. [00:17:27] Lavonne Bosman: who did the costume design? did it [chuckles] [00:17:29] Kerry Newsome: perfectly. That beautiful lady with their little pajama set kind of thing on without having that, oh, she's just as charming. Exactly. Now, I want to talk to you about the craziness side of the traffic. A lot of people talk to me and say, "Oh, I think it'd be just too much for me." We spoke about it, didn't we, the other day? Maybe speak to my listeners about how you coped when you first time. [00:18:05] Lavonne Bosman: yes, I was quite nervous about that before I arrived because I watched some videos just to learn how to cross the street. [laughs] I thought, "Wow, I'm really gonna do that." I don't know. It's not that bad. I don't know if it's worse in Saigon, but in Hanoi, maybe I adapted it to that somehow quite quickly. I actually like that kind of thing where you must just realize don't go against anything, just go with the flow. If you go with the flow, don't hesitate, don't make any sudden movements. Everything really works out. [chuckles] [00:18:46] Kerry Newsome: it does. I think going with the flow is a really great analogy. I've had Vietnamese seen me when I first used to travel. They think, "Oh gosh. She's typically a tourist and is struggling." They'll just grab my arm and help me across the street. Then, I got a bit smarter. I have a beautiful girlfriend who's Vietnamese. When we go traveling together around Vietnam, she'll say, "Now, Kerry, we're going to such and such. Now, it's a very wide street. You know the drill. Grab my arm. We just go." I went, "Got you. I'm with you." [laughter] You pick your points, and obviously, you can find some method in the chaos. It is a bit like organized chaos. They don't want to crash into you as much as you don't want to crash into them. [00:19:45] Lavonne Bosman: exactly, exactly. There are some tricks that you can follow, especially if you're on a bike. Walking can be a little bit different. You just walk. When you're on a bike, and there are actually cars and trucks coming-- because sometimes it feels like the bikes watch out for each other, but you got to watch out for the cars. They just go. Something that you can do when you don't feel safe, or you don't feel confident that it's your turn, you can just keep on moving is to shelter behind someone else, maybe a bigger vehicle, or sometimes there's a little group. It always feels to me like I'm part of a motorbike gang when I'm in the traffic. [laughter] Okay. The group is starting to move and then you just make sure you're behind them. If someone does crash into the group, you'll be right behind, so you'll be fine. [laughs] That's a great way of getting across a scary street. [00:20:46] Kerry Newsome: absolutely. As you say, as you're riding the bike, you're in a different group. I know from riding with other friends, etc. they're most fearful of cars because the car is obviously faster, quicker and can really do some damage, so [crosstalk]- [00:21:05] Lavonne Bosman: Yes, they can always-- [00:21:06] Kerry Newsome: -they're the ones that do the real damage. [00:21:06] Lavonne Bosman: [unintelligible 00:21:06] so much. [chuckles] [00:21:08] Kerry Newsome: exactly. The bikes are traditionally only going at about 40 kilometers an hour, sometimes much less. Yes, exactly. [00:21:17] Lavonne Bosman: Most of the time I prefer going on by bicycle, which is very relaxing. [chuckles] Then, you can take the smaller roads. You don't need to stick on the big roads. Just go and explore the little roads on the side, getting to the same destination. [00:21:35] Kerry Newsome: absolutely. Some of those skinny areas where it is a little bit clutter-ish, a bicycle works much better, doesn't it? [00:21:44] Lavonne Bosman: yes. You'll see all these old people on bicycles. They don't look worried. [chuckles] [00:21:51] Kerry Newsome: yes, that's always a good sign. All right. I'm gonna jump into a story you told me about you've made a friend, I think, in the neighborhood. Maybe you want to share that with us. [00:22:04] Lavonne Bosman: yes, that's quite a special story and a special friend I guess. Yes, I met this elderly gentleman when I first moved to the neighborhood where I'm living now. He just looked really interesting to me. Photographically, I just wanted to take a photograph of him immediately, which I did. He reminded me a bit of Mr. Miyagi from the Karate Kid story. [00:22:31] Kerry Newsome: Oh, beautiful. [00:22:32] Lavonne Bosman: [chuckles] This great beard and this long gray hair and just a very friendly face. Yes, he said he allowed me to take his portrait. I think he even bought me a nước mía that day, which is one of the sugarcane juice, which is one of my favorite drinks in Vietnam. Since then, we've bumped into each other many times. Very often, I'll be cycling past or walking past, and he'll be sitting somewhere on the sidewalk, eating or having a drink. He'll always invite me over. I always join him if I have time. I think there was one morning at about seven o'clock, I came back from cycling around the lake. He invited me for a shot of rice wine at about 7:00 AM. [00:23:18] Kerry Newsome: Oh wow. [00:23:19] Lavonne Bosman: [laughs] Yes. He doesn't speak any English. I'm quite embarrassed at my own level of Vietnamese. In the beginning, we were communicating a bit with Google Translate. It doesn't always work that well. We gave that up eventually. Nowadays, mostly we just hang out together, just have a drink, eat some peanuts on the little plastic chairs wherever, somewhere on the sidewalk. After a while, yes, it'll be time to go. [00:23:54] Kerry Newsome: Oh, I think that's sweet. [00:23:55] Lavonne Bosman: yes, so sweet. Sometimes if I've walked, he would just point his bike. Then, he'll offer me a lift home. [laughs] [00:24:04] Kerry Newsome: Oh, that's delightful. How gracious of him to befriend you when he really can't understand everything that you're saying. [00:24:17] Lavonne Bosman: right. He's always treating me to some more either trà đào or nước mía or something like that. [chuckles] [00:24:22] Kerry Newsome: all right. [music] Have you tried bia hơi yet? [00:24:32] Lavonne Bosman: yes, I quite enjoy that beer. Actually, I don't go to the bia hơi that often. One of my favorite places where I have this kind of beer is at the flower market. They have this one food stall that seems to stay open all night, where they serve this quite famous phở chiên, the crispy fried noodle, which may be my favorite food in Vietnam. I like going past there because it's on the way to my home when I take the back streets from another more central area. It happens that I go past it late at night. Then, I'll have some of that and a nice cheap beer. [laughs] [00:25:17] Kerry Newsome: it's very cheap beer. [00:25:19] Lavonne Bosman: there's a, yes, good view of the flower market to entertain me. It's lovely. [chuckles] [00:25:25] Kerry Newsome: when you first arrived, Lavonne, did you do any tours or anything, or did you just take up exploring on your own? [00:25:33] Lavonne Bosman: yes, I didn't really do any tours. I was lucky enough to have a friend here who'd been living here for a few years. He showed me around quite a lot. Yes, I was very spoiled then because I could just hop in the back of his bike. No stress from my side. Just do a bit of sightseeing. Yes, he would go and show me around the lake or show me all his favorite little places. We even did a trip during the Tet holiday, the new year for about a week where we traveled a little bit north to and the Đà river and a few places like that, which has been my most incredible bike trip so far. Yes. That was great to be with people who knew the area, who could also speak some Vietnamese. Yes, that was [crosstalk]-- [00:26:24] Kerry Newsome: in particular in those regions. Yes. [music] You're a solo traveler per se. Have you felt safe? [00:26:37] Lavonne Bosman: yes. When I travel, I do mostly feel safe. I think also coming from South Africa, I definitely feel safer here. I was quite nervous about traveling by bike by myself. Maybe sometimes I still am because maybe my bike isn't the best. I've got the little Honda Super Cub that's not that fast. It could perhaps break down. Usually, the people are very helpful and kind. If you would break down somewhere, someone would come along and help you sooner or later. I would advise people to be a bit street smart though because it has happened to me when I took a bus somewhere. The drivers actually made me put my bag into their storage underneath the bus. I just had a funny feeling about it. I got out and went around. They were scratching my back, nearly stealing my passport, which stupidly, I left in my bag. [chuckles] Yes. You've got to watch out for things like that. You have got to be a bit street smart. [00:27:43] Kerry Newsome: yes, absolutely. I think mostly common sense prevails in most cases. You're right, but-- [00:27:49] Lavonne Bosman: Yes, like most countries. [00:27:51] Kerry Newsome: Like most countries, absolutely. Would you recommend Hanoi as a good starting point into Vietnam? [00:28:00] Lavonne Bosman: yes, definitely. I think Hanoi itself-- I've been living here for two and a half years now. I still find new places that I'm so excited about, "Wow. More new discoveries." From Hanoi, there are so many places around here that are not even far that you can go to. There's, for example, Sóc Sơn is a place we often go to, a group of friends, just take our bikes and go there for the day and relax by the lake. There are other beautiful places. Well, you can go to Cat Ba Island. I haven't gone there by bike. You can take a bus. Then, you go on a ferry and spend a week in there, whatever. Places like Ba Vì, which is incredibly beautiful, all these. you just go up this mountain and see all this amazing plant growth and beautiful waterfalls. It's really incredible, and some other places like that that's really not too far. It's north, but it's central from a lot of places to travel to. [00:29:09] Kerry Newsome: absolutely. Now, with the freeway to Ha Long Bay, that's now reduced to only two hours away. You've got that to access or Lan Ha Bay as the two areas now. You're right. It's the leapfrog to what I would call open spaces, massive landscape, really idyllic areas for a photographer, especially on a landscape canvas. I like the idea of using Hanoi as a base. You and I talked about that before about basing yourself in Hanoi and doing some trips, a short trip to Ninh Binh first per se. You could do that not easily in a day. It's about three or four hours to get there. [00:30:07] Lavonne Bosman: Yes, I would ... [00:30:09] Kerry Newsome: yes, I would too. What I'm saying is access wise to so many different places north and south. [00:30:21] Lavonne Bosman: even taking a flight to Da Nang, going to Hoi An. It's not that far. [00:30:26] Kerry Newsome: no, and cheap. [00:30:28] Lavonne Bosman: yes. Hoi An is lovely. [chuckles] [00:30:31] Kerry Newsome: yes. That's where I base myself. [music] If you were going to give any tips for first-time travelers, now that you're very familiar with being in Hanoi, what would you give us some tips for that for people to go? [00:30:54] Lavonne Bosman: okay. I find that a little bit of a hard question to answer just because, yes, first-time travelers, I think everything is just overwhelming in the beginning. It depends on how much time you have to spend, a lot of what you're going to do. I think if people come to Hanoi, and it's their first time, they will probably be so overwhelmed that they just stay in the Old Quarter, which is absolutely fine. I would say, yes, don't be afraid to explore some non-touristy areas where more like local neighborhoods, where you really see even more of daily life, which can be really magical and beautiful. There are so many street markets everywhere. To me, my main impression of Hanoi is the street markets. I love it. I love the idea that it looks like anyone can start a little business on the sidewalk. [chuckles] I would say yes, go, go and just walk around and get lost somewhere and find the little unexpected road. Also, don't be afraid to use the GrabBike service. It's really convenient and-- [00:32:14] Kerry Newsome: yes, it's very good. [00:32:15] Lavonne Bosman: yes, you can just absolutely relax and enjoy the view and have this little adventure of going through the traffic with someone who knows what they're doing. [chuckles] [00:32:25] Kerry Newsome: yes. Even the Grab cars are good. [00:32:28] Lavonne Bosman: yes. The Grab cars are much cheaper than you would expect. [00:32:33] Kerry Newsome: yes, yes, yes. I highly recommend them. [00:32:36] Lavonne Bosman: yes. Also, just be open to hanging out with the local people. They can be really welcoming. I remember this one day, I was walking down the street, and there was this group of construction workers having their lunch on the sidewalk. I just walked past them and smiled at them or something. They waved me over and made me join them for lunch. [laughter] [00:33:03] Kerry Newsome: Yes. That would be typical. [00:33:05] Lavonne Bosman: yes. I just ate with them. Then, they had to pack up and go and continue their work. [chuckles] Things like that happen all the time. Those to me are the most precious moments. [00:33:15] Kerry Newsome: absolutely. Lavonne, it's been great having you on the program. I really loved your stories. I'm sure people are going to love your photographs as you keep adding to your portfolio. I'm sure my listeners are going to be keen to have a look at that as it grows. Once again to everyone, the links to Lavonne's photography, everything will be in the episode notes. Stay well Lavonne. I look forward to talking with you again soon. [00:33:48] Lavonne Bosman: thanks so much, Kerry. Thanks for the opportunity. It was great talking to you. [00:33:53] Jingle: Thank you for listening. Check out the episode notes for more information. What About Vietnam. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review, and stay tuned for more fun adventures in Vietnam.

878767d7-cade-4a2f-931a-1b2265549a6bWe share with you some of the history of Hoi An. What About Vietnam - Series 2 -1 Hoi An - Taking a step back in time Kerry Newsome: Xin Chao and hello everyone welcome to What about Vietnam, the traveler experience series, this is going to be the series where we get to talk to previous travelers to Vietnam. And some of those have actually decided to make Vietnam their home. Look, there's so much to cover in Vietnam, and I thought, what better way to do it than to do it through the ears and eyes and the voices of previous travelers. Those people who have decided to venture to Vietnam and have had a wonderful time and want to share their tips and hints and insights into this country today, we're going to talk about a place in Vietnam, which I call my second home. When I go to Vietnam, I tend to always base myself in this place. And this city is called Hoi An. Hoi An is based in the central part of Vietnam. So, pretty much it's about 25 minutes from the Da Nang Airport. It gives me the luxury then of being able to go North or South as I play. So, it's a great location. It's a very easy, comfortable style place with access to the old town and then access to the beach. And it's just, delightful, not too many motorbikes, which makes it even better. I decided to kick it off with Hoi An because it comes up so many times when I talk to travelers as their favorite place, as it is the most popular, and always seems to appear on any Vietnam tour that you would look at. So, today I'd like you to welcome Paul Simpson to the program. Paul went to Vietnam originally, I think in about 2012 but decided to make it his home, about three years ago, he's General Manager for a hotel within the little Hoi An hotel group in Hoi An, they have about five hotels. I met Paul about three years ago, he's a very well-traveled person and he just fell in love with Vietnam a bit like me and he also knows I love Hoi An. So, we're sort of on the same page as far as the city is concerned, but Paul is going to share with you some of the history, some of what makes Hoi An almost let you take a step back in time. It's a very old city, it dates back to the 16th century in some areas and on those streets. And when you see those shop house doors, if only those doors could talk. So, please welcome Paul Simpson to the show. I'm sure you're going to learn a lot more about Hoi An through his experience. Paul Simpson: The old town was the trading port for the Champa people, which is a regional little medieval kingdom set up at the My Son temple ruins, which was the religious political and cultural capital of this little area. Hoi An was the dynamic engine, the economic drive for that because it was situated on the river. Sailing ships could come in, get fresh water, make an easier approach, trade with the locals for textiles, ceramics, get fresh water and foods. It was an important place and if you look at the map of Southeast Asia, it's all centrally located. The Royal family that ran all this from the My Son temple ruins k died out, but all of the traditional venues that kept their little kingdom going, kept going in their traditional sense; silk, ceramics, fishing and farming. That was everything that drove Hoi An and to their credit people are creatures of habit and change doesn't always come easy. They still do so many of those things today, the same way so, that it has made Hoi An a very unique step back in time where ceramics, silk, farming, and fishing are all done the same way. And that has created a very wonderful tourism draw. You can come here and see how those things are done in a beautiful, charming place, similar to and as visually pleasing, like Portofino on the Italy or the Columbia zoo. And so, all of these things you can do in Hoi An, and you can spend a month here. It's picturesque, so, if you're a photography buff, you can come and see all the places and discover new ones, where to take photos different times a day, different lighting, kind of like Monet. You can come to Hoi An and ride in a basket boat. They make baskets, giant baskets and turn them into boats. Very creative use of bamboo reeds and palm fronds. You can go to the Tra Que village to learn about local farming techniques and how they still do things by hand. And the foods that you eat in the local restaurants and in your hotels are all farmed here. It's wonderful, very fresh. You're eating literally from farm to table. You can see how they make silk, where the industry really hasn't changed in the last 500 years. The only thing that's changed is they've mechanized it, but you can still see them using a loom, handweaving things, and they're for sale. They're still here. You can, you can learn that pottery, the pottery village here still uses a giant earthen oven. They feed it full of wood and charcoal to heat it up. Then they hand-make all of the ceramics and put it in using what looks like a pizza. What do they call it? Pizza wheel, they put it in using a pizza wheel, and a few hours later, they take it out and it's ceramic. Hoi An was known for its lanterns. Everyone in Southeast Asia going back four or five, 600 years, they knew about the silk lanterns hanging in the streets of Hoi An. And they're beautiful, they're decorative, they're everywhere. Anyone who comes to Hoi An takes a silk lantern home. You can learn to make them hang them in your house, they're beautiful softly lit. So, you can come to Hoi An, and get the best of pretty much all vacations, you can get, all of those. You can go golfing at one of four premier golf courses. You can take cooking classes and learn how to cook amazing Vietnamese cuisine, the fusion of flavors. You can come to Hoi An and go to the beach, we have beautiful beaches here. You can enjoy strolling through the old town and see the history. You're walking down a street that was laid out 500 years ago. The houses really haven't changed, it is an earthen ceramic structure made with ceramic bricks. And hand-carved and hand turned wood accents on the doors. The doors aren't really doors, they're wood slats that they stack up on top of each other. They're still using those, but windows are the same, they have shutters, there's no glass, they're all open. This little town is a United Nations world heritage site because they haven't changed it, they haven't messed it up. Instead of they've preserved it for centuries. Come and explore it, is what I say! Kerry Newsome: Thank you, Paul, for your wonderful insights into this beautiful city I can't wait to get back. I hope you enjoyed listening to Paul today as he talked about Hoi An and its many offerings to the tourist. It was nice to hear him talk about the historical side of Hoi An and its background to many activities that still go on. Sometimes it's very easy to take that all for granted, but it is a big part of what makes Hoi An unique. Hoi An is undoubtedly one of the most comfortable cities in Vietnam to visit. And because it is a hot spot for tourists, we will hear more about it from all the travelers in future episodes. So, stay tuned, please get your free subscription as then you get notified of new episodes as they come up, please review, and share with potential travelers. Thank you for listening and until next time stay safe everyone.

S4-18 Luxury Brand Travel Experiences What About Vietnam – S4-E18 Discover some of the best Luxury brand travel experiences in Vietnam SPEAKERS Kerry Newsome, Alexandra Hepworth Kerry Newsome: 00:18 Xin Chào and welcome to “What About Vietnam ”. I'm happy to say we are in our third year of the program, and that's all thanks to you. Your support and sticking with the show, even though it's been through some challenging times. We didn't know when travel was going to open up again. But here we are. It's in full flight now and Vietnam is coming back strongly. I'm thrilled to announce What About Vietnam is now recognized and recommended in the Vietnam Lonely Planet Guide for 22-23 . It's recommended as a reference tool for listening information about Vietnam. Wow! who would have thought that my love for this country and its people would bloom into this. 01:26 Today the show welcomes my lovely guest Alexandra Hepworth to talk about luxury travel in Vietnam. Vietnam has not always featured on the top 10 or so lists for luxury travel destinations. But steadily over the past, I think five to seven years, it is becoming an 'A Lister' for luxury experiences. With a uniqueness, I'm happy to say, my guest today describes it really well. Alexandra works for AZA Travel , a Bespoke Travel agency specializing in curating high end luxury travel. While her background starts with an equine science degree, she knows Vietnam very well, as up until 2020, she lived in Vietnam for nine years and worked with some of the big brands, such as The Fusion Group . She also represented the Vietnam Tourism Board , that Caravelle Saigon and prior to leaving, she worked on the opening of the Hyatt Regency in Phnom Penh. 02:32 I'm talking to her now in her new home of Bogota, Colombia, and in her role with AZA Travel, Alexandra is able to give us some firsthand information about some of the best luxury hotels and brands operating in Vietnam. Together, we take you through some of the big brands you may follow as a luxury traveler, and we peel the onion back so you can hear how they perform in this country. We think you will be pleasantly surprised that Vietnam is pushing that glass ceiling with innovative decor, experiences, spa treatments, and modeling that incorporates the locality, the beauty of Vietnam culture and its people. It was an eye opener for me with some of the properties she talks about, and I think it will be for you too. If you'd like some insights into your favorite brand and are keen to know if they perform as well or better in Vietnam. This is the show for you. 03:37 The fabulous thing about Vietnam is that each region offers its own unique history, culture, people, and landscape. So at any given point of your trip, you are potentially able to have a unique experience while still in the same country. It's an aspect of Vietnam travel that makes it exciting and rewarding, and why people find it hard to pick just one place or stay as a highlight when they get home. As each one is unique. I have to stop saying absolutely throughout the show. Please forgive me. You can go luxury all the way or you can mix up your stay with boutique homestays and luxury accommodation, to feel you're getting an authentic and well-rounded experience of Vietnam. 04:31 Alexandra has a wonderful way of describing the variables of luxury stays. That means in some cases, it's actually all about the property. You may not want to leave it for a few days and just embrace its opulence and pampering. While we wish we could have covered them all, we had to limit them to Alexandra's favorites, which I think, after listening you will agree was worth waiting for. You can find more about Alexandra from her details listed in the show notes. And of course, you can reach her through hours of travel. Please check the website for the transcript and further details. Without further ado, please welcome Alexandra Hepworth to the show. Alexandra, welcome to What About Vietnam. Alexandra Hepworth: 05:27 Thank you very much. It's fantastic to be here. Kerry Newsome: 05:30 Now we're going to be talking about an interesting subject. And that subject is luxury travel in Vietnam. Now, the reason why I'm referring to it as an interesting subject is that for Vietnam, it hasn't originally- or hasn't been in the luxury lane, so to speak, for very long. And it's really just starting to mature, in my opinion. So it's great to have you, and you work for AZA Luxury, which is a company, and I'll put the details in the notes for everyone. But I'm just delighted to have you on because you've also lived in Saigon for nine years. So, you know it really well. And you've seen lots of change. So we're going to be talking about some of the best locations, some of the hotels, some of the experiences, etc. So let's jump in and start with how best do we get there Alexandra, like as far as traveling to Vietnam by air or whatever. Can you speak to that, just to kick us off? Alexandra Hepworth: 06:48 Yeah, sure. Great introduction. All of those topics that we're going to cover are super interesting, and like you said, with my time there, I saw a lot of change, which I know we will touch on later. But one thing that did change a lot during my time in Vietnam was access into the country. That improvement of direct routes coming in from Europe, more recently from the US, from Australia, which has been around for a number of years, and all of those routes with the national carrier with Vietnam Airlines. So, there are many options to get there with transfers. But it's not always so convenient for people, adding on to travel time. So, I think with that development of Vietnam Airlines air routes, but also their product over that time, as well. I remember, four or five years ago, they launched a fleet of Dreamliners that had a fantastic business class product, and also a great Premium Economy products coming from Europe, which really put them on the map as well, because as well as having great access and visibility. It was also a very nicely positioned product in terms of price point when looking at some of the other carriers in the region. Kerry Newsome: 08:22 So they're going to come into Hanoi, or they're going to come into Ho Chi Minh City as the mains. Now, if we were to kick off as far as some of the really premium luxury experiences, where would you start? Where would you say, "Okay, well, number one has got to be..."? Over to you. Well, it's number one. Alexandra Hepworth: 08:51 Yeah, it's such a big question because there really is so much there and I think it's a very different experience for first time travelers to the country versus people who are also coming back, because it is such a diverse and beautiful country and it's actually a lot bigger than people think. So, there's a lot to see and do depending on how much time you have. I have actually recently put together a very nice itinerary for a family from the US who will actually travel over the festive season. That's touching on quite a lot of my personal highlights and experiences that I think are great for couples, for honeymooners, for families alike, because it is a very welcoming country as well. So, there are experiences for every type of traveler as well. So I will call on my own experience, but also a little bit of what I've designed for that family as well through my current role. 10:02 So I think, as you said, arrival into Hanoi, or Ho Chi Minh City, either one is fantastic. You can go north to south, south to north, whichever way you want- stop in the middle, there's so much out there. From my point of view in terms of culture, learning and real history, I think that Hanoi really does offer a little bit of everything, and you can see the influence of many different nationalities that have had on the country in this city over a vast number of years. I think, luxury product wise, there are beautiful colonial style hotels, The Sofitel Legend Metropole Hanoi is one, that's always on a bucket list, just because it provides that level of- I guess that French sense that you don't expect from Vietnam and I think that's the nice thing. 11:06 I think Vietnam is so unexpected for a lot of people because they hear the name, but they don't know much about it, and you really feel it once you get there. I think for me, even luxury experiences are walking the streets and sitting on the side of the street and really embracing that local culture as well as being in a beautiful hotel. But I think also seeing the sights outside of Hanoi, driving through the countryside seeing all the rice paddy fields and going out on to Hạ Long Bay is something that is very spectacular as well and something that's very indescribable for people really. I think going out on a beautiful junk, a private boat going in between all the mountains that are in the water, that beautiful flat blue water is just an incredible experience that you can't get anywhere else, and I think differently, that is one experience up in the north. Kerry Newsome: 12:12 I agree totally, and I think, for me when I think about the Sofitel Metropole, it's like the Raffles of Singapore, isn't it? It's got that colonial feel, and they have those beautiful afternoon teas and things like that. It's cooking lessons, it's got that just all that old world charm, just love it. Alexandra Hepworth: 12:37 It does. That kind of the French, colonial way, and I think it's divine, and the staff as well, they're so elegant in their outfits, and you feel something very special, and being so close to the opera house as well, you walk out there, and you see that beautiful building. There, it really puts you sort of in the center and gives you a sense of the place where you are as well. So, I think that property is one that I think has put itself on the map and has remained on the map while others have grown up. Kerry Newsome: 13:18 I think then, you know, the experience of Hạ Long Bay, being a UNESCO World Heritage Site in Vietnam, it likewise has developed and changed. I can remember I've had several experiences in Hạ Long Bay, from that real old junk, really crowded, a little bit messy to some upscale cruise ships coming in and being developed and even in Lan Ha Bay, because there's actually three bays that joined together, they develop Lan Ha and Lan Ha to me is just a little bit quieter, and some of those beautiful cruise ships and brands that have come on board, to me just takes it up a level. I don't think I've sent anyone there that hasn't come away and gone. It was nothing like I thought it was going to be. The old-world ships and their own architecture are so beautiful. The staff are beautiful, and just the serene pleasure doing Tai Chi early in the morning. I can see you and I have both been there, haven't we? It's just beautiful. Alexandra Hepworth: 14:44 It's special. I think you're right as well. I do think you know it is nice to also touch on the people because you are going into an unpopulated area, but yeah, there is still a population of people who live there on the water. That is also their life, and those people have a very, very simple life, but people don't know that there are schools out there and there are beautiful caves and there's places to canoe and you can go and really be a part of how the local people live. I think that that is something that is very unique. Kerry Newsome: 15:32 So now I'm going to take a big jump and take you to another area that I'd like your opinion on. Because we've done one, this came up in our conversation, and this is The Vietage Train . Maybe you can talk to us a little bit about that experience, like, just what it includes, and we can touch on Quy Nhon in that as well. Alexandra Hepworth: 15:58 Yeah, sure. So, the train is a relatively new product, I believe in the last couple of years, and it's actually linking to destinations in the center of Vietnam, Hội An, and also Quy Nhon. Hội An is definitely the most well-known of places, being a stop on most people's itineraries going into central Vietnam and, Hội An is a very special place. It's serene, it's beautiful. It's also another UNESCO listed town, an old Japanese port, and you can really feel that difference in culture and in terms of the architecture and the design of the town and the way that it's all pedestrianized and surrounded by river. So Hội An is a very different experience from what you will have seen and felt in Hanoi and Halong Bay, that's what I really love about Vietnam, in general is that everywhere you go is something very, very different. 17:10 In terms of Hội An, it is also very close to Da Nang as well, which is the entry point, which I'm sure we will touch on a little bit later. So I will stay on topic, but yeah, the train itself is linking Hội An and another area called Quy Nhon. Both places are unique in their own right. The two properties that actually link and the operator of the train is the Anantara Hotel Group , linking Anantara Hội An in the Old Town, which is a beautiful colonial building set on the river and linking a much more modern property in Quy Nhon, which is a beachfront Old Villa property, [ Old Pool Villas I believe- property which is very secluded, very romantic, and a fantastic addition to the hotel scene in Vietnam. And I think while Quy Nhon is not always on everybody's first time list, I do think that the destination for relaxation, for enjoying seeing something different is fantastic for people who live there. Because it's very, very short flight from Ho Chi Minh City. Obviously, there's the train journey that links the two. And it's also an up-and-coming destination, and it's nice to see it before it gets too developed as well. 18:36 The train itself is beautiful, carriages, includes food and beverage service, and again has that colonial sort of old school charm. It's very rare to travel by train in Vietnam. That's another thing that I would say that there is no real infrastructure for trains. In the country, we definitely don't have any high-speed trains that you would expect from Japan or that you see in in other places, it's very much old trains, sleeper trains that take a long time because there's only one set of tracks. So to have those beautiful luxury carriages going between those destinations is also a very, very beautiful and also unique experience that no one has had before. So I think, for those kinds of things to be developed also shows that there's a demand for new ways to travel the country for both people who live there and also for tourists. Again, like I said before, because we have so many second time is coming back to Vietnam. I think that a product like that is something that really appeals to those visitors as well. Kerry Newsome: 19:51 We're now in central Vietnam, and we've got the choice of Hội An and like we can talk a whole show about Hội An, and I'm not telling you, I have done whole shows about Hội An, so we can't afford to give this show all to Hội An. If you are to travel to Da Nang, which we know is about a 25 minute drive. I'm gonna kind of put out there the InterContinental in Da Nang which I know it's a property, you know very well. So maybe we can talk about that property where it's located, and its proximity to Sonterra and Da Nang and maybe give some perspective of that, because it sticks out there on its own. It takes even a little bit to get there. So people would have to really know about it from its brand, but also, just where it is and where it positions people, because it isn't a an easy stroll into town or an easy stroll into Da Nang. You could speak a little bit about that property. I mean, it's even hard to get through the front door if you don't belong there. So that's my experience. Alexandra Hepworth: 21:12 Sure. Yeah, exactly. Now I am very, very happy to talk about that one, because like you said, it is a uniquely position property, both in terms of the brand and the product, but also in terms of its location. So, it's quite an interesting one. I would say that, that the property was- in my opinion, it was quite ahead of its time when it was actually when it was actually developed in in Vietnam. And they intercontinental developed it along with local ownership as well. And along with Bill Bensley , who is very well known for design, and also being a little bit quirky, and a little bit out there, which is definitely something that this property is, but it's also so unique and spectacular in its own way. Every corner you turn, there's something to take a picture of or something to do or see. 22:21 Access from Da Nang airport is around 25 minutes, but it is going the opposite way from Hội An. So, where most people would come into Da Nang and then travel towards Hội An and either stay in a property along the beach front in in Da Nang keeping themselves maybe 20 minutes or so away from home Hội An Old Town or stay in the town. The InterCon is actually the other way. So if you're wanting to go into Hội An, from there, it would then take you about 45 to 50 minutes. So, it is something to just bear in mind. Situation wise, it's actually up on a peninsula and up on a mountain. So, the drive to get there is actually quite an interesting one, it's a little bit windy and your kind of don't really know where you're going, because there's not much else around there. But the property itself is situated in its own private bay. It's actually situated on Monkey Mountain, and it's quite a steep property. I'm visualizing it. [crosstalk] Kerry Newsome: 23:31 That's what I think they miss out. Alexandra Hepworth: 23:32 It's like, "I'm thinking, I'm thinking." Yeah, but for that reason, the property is just an incredible design and incredible concept, which is something that, that I really like is the story behind the property because it's actually- when you arrive, you come into the top of the mountain and you just look out over the bay and look down onto the property which is quite an interesting way that it has been developed and to go about that. You have the beach right down at the bottom and then go up the mountain all the way through to the food and beverage outlets up at the top. The property is set into four levels. I think Heaven is at the top and Earth is at the bottom and there's a couple in the middle, that I don't remember. I think of the Sea, Earth, and one other. Those are really the kind of concepts for it. You move around the property either by buggy or on the beautiful pathways that they have. Or you can use- What's the word for the train that that goes like- the cable car that goes up the side of the mountain and I can never remember the word, but that in itself was just such a cool experience to go up and down the mountain and stop at each level. 23:39 The property also it's very black and white with these strikes of colors everywhere and the design is something that is very unique, but it also talks to its location, there's a lot of lanterns that you can see all around the property, which is very typical of Hội An and that region. There are monkeys, real living ones that are around. But there's also many different monkey statues and characteristics and those sorts of things, again, built in within the concept because of the location of the property, that used a lot of natural wood from around the area as well, that can be seen in in all the guest rooms. It really is just something very, very special. I mean, for me, it's a property where you feel something, when you go there, it's not a generic property. And I think that having the big brand on the property, but it doesn't feel like that in the slightest is something that's very different as well. I think that people will be pleasantly surprised when going there that it has that luxury, and the infrastructure of the brand behind it, but it also has its own personality, and that's something that I really like about it. Kerry Newsome: 26:12 It owns that space, it owns that piece of land, and it is a place in my opinion that people would go to, and pretty much want to just stay on the property. I mean, some would say it is an area which is starting to develop, as certainly, I'm sure you would have seen it come along in the last few years, just leading into COVID. Da Nang also, as a city has come on, but I think the property can stand alone because of where it is. With optimal weather, you wouldn't want to go anywhere else, it's just got everything. So, you are paying a pretty penny for it. But I think it's worth it, it's got that value. But once again, you've got that great brand, you've got that cultural depth to it, and you've got all that just uniqueness because there's just no one else to compare it to, because they own that bay, they can go up into the mountain as the langur monkeys and Monkey Forest, you've got Lady Buddha up the hill, you also can take a drive, and you can do the Hải Vân pass. Alexandra Hepworth: 27:39 Definitely, it is definitely a place where you feel like you want to stay. Again, I think if you're a first timer, you would need to take yourself off into Hội An and see it and be there for the day and sample the local food and all that sort of thing. Because it is very, very unique. But if you have the time to stay up there, then I definitely think it's worth it. There are obviously a multitude of properties now that have developed on the drive into Hội An as well over the last few years. Again, luxury high end brands coming in like Four Seasons, who also have a fantastic property, very, very different, but also very high end property. Properties in the town. So there really is something for everybody as well. Properties that cater to families, those that are more positioned towards honeymooners. So that area in the last 10 or 12 years has really just absolutely changed beyond recognition. Kerry Newsome: 28:48 I think when you are thinking about these properties. In particular, like this one, to me, I don't know whether you'd agree, but I would have some time at the InterContinental and then I would move property and stay in Hội An or stay in a property close to that to have a totally separate and different experience. I wouldn't try and stay at the InterContinental and do Hội An, because just from the travel perspective, it would be annoying when you don't want to do that. So, there's so many other places up there that I think you would have two different hotel stays if you're going to do that. Alexandra Hepworth: 29:29 Two very different experiences, you're right. Again, it really depends how much time people have, and where they're coming from, and I guess, the objective of the trip, but you're definitely right, a stay up there, plus a stay in Hội An Old Town. I mean, that is absolutely ideal. It's just two completely different experiences and then they're very close to each other. Kerry Newsome: 29:57 I'm going to take you back to Da Nang, we're going to jump on a flight. And we're going to go to Phú Quốc. So, talk me through your optimum experience or hotel in Phú Quốc. Alexandra Hepworth: 30:18 Phú Quốc is one of those destinations that I think the last five or six years has really gone on zoom. There's been so much development on the island, and in a very, very short space of time. You will see now that the all the brands are pretty much there: · There's InterContinental, again. · We have JW Marriott there. · We have also the Rosewood Group with a beautiful new world property. · There's also The Regent there, that just opened earlier this year. So, there's a lot of those very, very luxurious brands there on the island. And I think, what I would say about Phú Quốc is for me, the experiences there really are about the hotels. Me, with a hotelier background for the last seven or eight years, that's something that I really appreciate the hotel experience, because we spend a lot of time developing, so many on property experiences that sometimes people don't ever get to use them, because they're always out of the property or they go on a tour or they do something and they don't always spend the time on property. 31:39 That's very obvious more with city hotels than with resort style properties. But I think somewhere like Phú Quốc is a different proposition from Hội An and Da Nang because you are on an island, surrounded by the ocean with great weather, beautiful sunsets, all along the beach, but it's also definitely somewhere for me to go and relax, and pretty much stayed where you are. Because if I'm very honest about it, and it may have changed in the last couple of years since I last visited, but definitely at that time, there wasn't much infrastructure outside of the properties to cater for, especially for foreign tourists. I think for local travelers, and especially the local Vietnamese travelers, there's still a lot of experiences there. Because it's more local, they have the language and it's different. But for foreign tourists, I do think it's one of those a 'stay on resort and enjoy what you've paid for'. In terms of that, you are paying for luxury high end brands there. So again, why not enjoy where you've put your money and use it wisely. 33:01 One property that I do really like there, that I did mention earlier is the JW Marriott Phú Quốc . Just because again, I think by the end of this podcast, you'll know that I like the quirkier places I think. But those places that have a brand behind them, so that you really feel that level of service and security that you are going to get what you pay for. But in terms of design and experience, there's always something to look at, something to do, and that JW Marriott property for me, I have to admit that when I went there, I didn't really know what to expect at all. I didn't know the backstory of the property, I didn't know anything. And so, I was just intrigued for four days. Everywhere I turned it was just something completely different and the property is set up like a 1920 style university. And it has its own name. They created an entire story of, that it used to be a house of a family or an estate of a family and then it changed, and it was a university, and they have all this memorabilia all around the property. 34:23 Yeah, exactly. It's just fantastic, and the accommodation blocks, they're all different themed buildings as if they were the different study areas of the university. So you have like the anthropology wing and you have- I don't know the ornithology wing and the science lab which is actually the cocktail bar and all these kinds of things. So, it's very quick, like very different. There's a lot of color around. For me, it's just incredible, the way that it's been done, the staff, the uniforms, so like this cool, 1920s ladies, old baseball outfits and sports uniforms. So it's very high end, but it's relaxing, and it's quirky and it has a story. But it also has great food and beverages, a fantastic location, great service, and rooms. Most of them are pretty much ocean facing, many different swimming pools, for families, areas for couples. So, for me [crosstalk]. Kerry Newsome: 35:42 Let's take you from quirky now to probably what someone else that I did a show with, Connor Kelly, we are talking about a an archipelago of islands called the Côn Đảo islands. But in particular, there's a brand there that I think you know pretty well, The Six Senses brand. So let's talk for everyone about the Côn Đảo islands from the luxurious perspective, because Connor didn't go that route, and we didn't talk about the condo islands from that perspective. But the photos I've seen of the Six Senses resort look pretty amazing. So maybe talk to us a little bit about the Côn Đảo islands experience, be it that it's totally different again, It's an island. Alexandra Hepworth: 36:31 Yeah, it is. Yeah, exactly. I think what you've touched on there is really accurate again. When I go back to it, Vietnam has so many experiences that you can really have a different one every day, every time you come, an entire trip, you can spend a month just exploring and not really scratched the surface, but I think somewhere like Côn Đảo is nice, because it's, it's pretty untouched. I think, there's not so many properties there, and the ones that are there are pretty in the high-end space. Definitely, the Six Senses has always been a flagship of the island and a reason that people would go there. Again, small group of islands really somewhere to go, relax, enjoy, the Six Senses brand is very, very well known for spa, which is something that we haven't really touched on yet, but something that we should, because Asia, in general is fantastic for wellness experiences, and for spa experiences. 37:44 Those experiences, they're just there, wherever you turn, but to go to a brand that is very focused on those elements, again, gives a whole other spin on a trip to Vietnam, and you can stop halfway through your trip, either access from Hanoi or Ho Chi Minh City, and relax and take a wellness package or go and take a bit of a break from running around, just really go and again, have that very, very high level of service, high touch point of attention, especially on properties like that, that really do have a personal, individual guest focus because those properties and those brands really focus on the guests, as an individual, not as a couple or as a group, it's very much about what you need. I think that, again, to have a brand like that within a country like Vietnam, where it's quite unexpected that these experiences exist. Not only that they exist, but they are not so tough on your pocket as, let's say, other destinations within the region. That's something I think we can touch on a little bit more. 39:07 I would say that, to have that more of holistic experience as well, within a country like that is something that that, again, is a hook for a lot of travelers and especially now, you've probably seen quite a lot of reports about wellness travel in general and the demand for people to look after themselves and maybe not travel around and run around so much to tick everything off the list, take the picture and leave, and they are wanting those more personalized, healthy wellness related individual experiences. I think a country like Vietnam has had those for a very long time without it really being known. So now with Vietnam in general being put on the map by the development and the investment that has gone into In the country, from hospitality brands within the last five to seven years, I think that's also something that is very, very positive for the country and for the customer experience. Kerry Newsome: 40:11 Absolutely, I think, we're going to talk a little bit about, I guess, comparing Vietnam to its neighbors. I want to leave that to the end because I think it is worth mentioning. But so far, I've been doing a bit of a count list as we've been going. So: · We've got Hạ Long Bay. We've got Vietage. · We've got the InterContinental in Da Nang. · Definitely we've done the JW Marriott at Phú Quốc. And.. way up there! · We've done the Côn Đảo Islands. I've got two more that I want to run past you but one we didn't even touch prior to the show, and that's Nha Trang and Cam Ranh, maybe so I'm sure you're going to- I'm not going to preempt you, you tell me what you think is up there in the luxury in for Nha Trang. Alexandra Hepworth: 40:57 Nha Trang is also a very interesting destination for me, it's very close to Ho Chi Minh City, and also again from Da Nang, probably 35-minute flight from each memory. So it's always been one of those destinations where you either do it or you don't. It's not always on the itinerary path, if you have 10 or 12 days, sometimes it gets missed, but if you have a little bit more time, then it's always somewhere that is added and should be. I think destination wise, again, I keep saying the same timeframe, five to seven years, but that really is because in the nine years that I was in Vietnam from 2011 until 2020. The development in the country overall was just incredible. 42:20 Especially the economy, the people really changed, the education of people that had been educated outside and coming back and also the investment in our industry of those large hospitality brands and finding those destinations that mean something to people. Nha Trang is another one that just developed pretty much out of nowhere. It used to be a strip of hotels across the road from the beach in Nha Trang city. That's probably taking me back but probably about 45 minute drive from the airport, which is called Cam Ranh. But Cam Ranh itself, which is very close to the airport, was completely isolated, not developed, and yet it has the most beautiful strip of gorgeous white, clean sand. Kerry Newsome: 43:19 Well you ought to say it now, it's got the most stunning property now. There's a Movenpick there. Yeah, and I would think moving probably my number one for that. I've actually got an offer through What About Vietnam for that property. But you're right, it is on the same scale. But Cam Ranh years ago was like nothing, it just didn't even rate. Alexandra Hepworth: 43:45 It was just nothing. It was just the fishing area. I think when I was working for Fusion Group, we actually opened Fusion Resort, it was called Nha Trang in the beginning, because for the sole reason. Kerry Newsome: 44:09 Exactly, and what I still don't understand, it's part of Nha Trang. Alexandra Hepworth: 44:13 Yeah, they don't really know but we call it Fusion Resort Nha Trang and the name has actually now been changed to Fusion Resort Cam Ranh for the very reason that, that area has been so well developed that they don't need to use Nha Trang to hook people to know where it is anymore, and the property really is not in Nha Trang. So, that is one thing that I have noticed that the development up within that area. Again, beautiful, resorts all ocean facing, and I think what that development also brings outside of the brands going in there and I would say that it's not all the international brands, that are there in Nha Trang and Cam Ranh at the moment because it hasn't had that development at the same speed as Da Nang, for example. 45:10 You don't have luxury brands there. But there is InterContinental, which is a fantastic property. In Nha Trang City, there's a Western across from the Marriott as well. Exactly. So, it is coming, and it is there. And again, that confidence in Vietnam, as a destination on the whole, and being able to give a range of experiences for every type of traveler again. I mean, I think that, that is just testament to itself, and also the acceptance of the country to allow foreign investment and to really allow that to develop the country so that it can grow at the rate that it was pre-pandemic, because it was one of the- I think the second fastest growing economy in the world, huge exports, and the country really just went boom. And I think, again, a lot of that is testament to product development within the country. Kerry Newsome: 46:18 Let me assure you. It's definitely on the way back. 46:28 Just on the topic of wellness, now, I did take a wellness break in a beautiful property just out of Hue called Alba, Alba Wellness resort. Do you have a top luxury wellness resort? It doesn't matter where in Vietnam. If you were to put a pin on a map, where would you go for wellness, do you think, luxury top end? Alexandra Hepworth: 46:56 I think for me, a wellness experience is really about the property that you're in. I think you are right, that there have been a few experiences built in the last few years, and Alba is a lovely place, again, through Fusion Group, and it's not one I've experienced myself. So, I would say that I would probably stick a little bit more and more to what I can talk to and what I know. But Fusion Group developed properties that had wellness inclusions long before wellness was a trend. Let's say that there's one property in general that has always had a big piece of my heart ever since I stepped there long before I worked with the group, it's now no longer actually part of the group, it's now called TIA Wellness Resort in Da Nang, thhe Fusion Maya property this is a very, very special property just from when you step through the door, the feeling that you get is just one of relaxation, one of calm, people having this sense of care without it being in your face, I don't really know how to describe it. Kerry Newsome: 48:29 Nurturing. Alexandra Hepworth: 48:30 It is. The property was developed long before a lot of properties were actually around it as well. So, it was one by itself. It's a collection of all pool villas. So, your accommodation is very private. They included from the outset a spa experience with every room that was booked and that wasn't something that you could say, "Yes, I want that. Oh no, I don't. Please reduce the rate." That was what you were buying. You were buying an entire experience, whether you decided to use that or not was another matter, but the spa inclusive experience was part of it right from the start and part of the concept. I remember, we had a 99% capture rate at the spa because even people who booked and said, "I'm not a spa person." They left that property as a spa person They'd been looked after and they had these amazing treatments, and they use a different scent of oil every day, depending on the energy of the day of the week and, and all that sort of things, and the rooms were tailored to different treatments. 49:44 Again, a bit ahead of their time with those kinds of experiences and then developed more- the food and beverage aspect as well to complement the spa and wellness and feeling. I think that that was so something unique for Vietnam at that time. Something that they are still doing very, very well, today, as the resort that they are in now. I know that the general manager there has been there since he was in other positions within the property and has also grown up with that property. So many of the staff have stayed there and been there because of that nurturing feeling that is not only there for the guests, but the way that the property is run, in terms of looking after their peace and wellness. Well, I think that that one for me, is a very, very nice experience that can change somebody's mindset, and something that they can potentially keep with them long after they've left the country. Kerry Newsome: 50:50 That was similar for me to the Alba experience, as I felt like I was treated as an individual. The experience that I had and was tailored to me, it was very holistic, including massage, including meditations and purifications, the landscape and scenery there alone is just delicious, the food you're eating is very carefully orchestrated to what you want to achieve, and you set objectives around what you want to achieve in your stay. Then you've got these beautiful bungalows that are just making you feel luxurious, just by spending time in them. So you're right, there is wellness, and there's spas and I think the whole world is reevaluating just how we label and how we describe these experiences. I think, coming from Australia, Bali was it. As far as you went to Bali, where now I think, Southeast Asia has become more developed, and in particular, Vietnam is really trying to lift their game in that wellness nurturing space. They do it very easily, because their personalities per se lend themselves to that in the first instance. 52:21 I think wellness and sustainable travel and social enterprise, these are all subjects which are very hyper out there, but not very well explained. And sometimes people can get in misunderstood when they say, "Well, that really wasn't what I expected. That should be just a spa." We're not talking about just having a massage, and all you get is spa treatment. There's got to be lots more individualization about it, and specialties. And I think Vietnam is on the cusp of education, also in the hospitality sector, and also in wellness. So, I got to speak to some really interesting people that are going into hotels and developing schemes and programs that the hotels are going to include that are going to offer these specialties because they bringing that talent and that talent pool to those hotels, which just wasn't there before. But certainly, no one was sitting on their hands during COVID. People were thinking ahead and planning ahead. So, Vietnam still has got a long way to go with waste management and lots of things like that. But haven't we all? Look, I wanted to finish off with a particular place and some properties that you mentioned that I didn't know about. So, I love learning and hearing about new places. 54:06 So, you mentioned Hồ Tràm? Alexandra Hepworth: 54:09 Yeah, so Hồ Tràm is an area with about two hours’ drive out of Ho Chi Minh City, and a great beach option, in my opinion for people who maybe are a little bit short on time. Kerry Newsome: 54:25 That's what I like about it. Alexandra Hepworth: 54:25 People who want to play in it. It doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't really take too much organization. One property that I really like down there is The Meliá . Meliá Hồ Tràm property. It has hotel rooms as well as beautiful villas as well where you can go with a group of friends or with families or for honeymooners or couples so it has a bit of everything and it's quite an expensive resort. So even though there's quite a number of rooms there, it still feels quite individual as well, which is always a nice thing because you don't want to feel like you're on top of many other people. I think in terms of the location, it's fantastic for something a little bit different, maybe a weekend getaway. Maybe a couple of days add on to Saigon because I mean if you can get there by 12 o'clock and leave two days later at 12 o'clock, you've had fantastic experience, great room, good food and beverage, you've been at the beach, you've done your watersports activities you've been to the spa, you've done all those things to help relax and enjoy and it's so super close to Saigon, that it really is a waste not to add it, I think. There are also a few other developments happening down. There is an InterContinental property down there as well. So, there are brands there. I do think that it offers a nice alternative to other more traditional beach destinations that have been used in the past like Mui Ne, for example, which also has its own charm, but getting there is not so easy, it takes a lot longer. Yeah, so I think it is an alternative and a nice quick beach trip, then for me, I enjoyed going there. Kerry Newsome: 54:49 Since people jump straight into going to Cần Thơ and during the Mekong Delta. In my experience, I haven't had an alternative like this, only two hours away, easy to get to, as you say, to hire a driver and get there and get a quick getaway. That sounds terrific. Alexandra Hepworth: 56:48 The golf down there as well. Da Nang is also another fantastic destination but close to Ho Chi Minh City, then Hồ Tràm is a great option. Kerry Newsome: 56:59 So, just to wrap up as I'm kind of mindful of the time. 57:10 We’ve got to talk about value. We've talked about some big name brands, I wish they were advertising on this show, by the way, but if we are talking about that, and when we then want to compare those brands, as far as, value for money perspective, if you stay in an InterContinental in Europe, or if you stay in Vietnam, can you speak to that a little bit. I felt from you that, that was kind of worth mentioning. Alexandra Hepworth: 57:41 Yeah, no, look, I think it's really something to note as well that your money goes a long way in Vietnam and in Southeast Asia in general, but obviously, really talking to Vietnam. Through AZA as well, I mean, we have many, many high-end clients who are loyal members with Four Seasons or with the Park Hyatt brand or with the Rosewoods and that level and they are used to paying top dollar for those experiences. When quoting the high end product that is available in Vietnam, people are very surprised by the rate that they can get a Park Hyatt there, for example, versus say, a Park Hyatt in Europe or in the US. I think that it is something very big to note because those luxury experiences are there through the brands and through local experiences as well. I mean, like I said, a couple of my favorite experiences that a luxury just because you can't get them anywhere else is sitting on the street or going for a local barbecue or something like that, that we haven't really touched on but to be in these luxurious, high end properties, but step out onto the street and be faced with real local life experiences is something that you just can't buy. 59:14 That's very obvious in Saigon, in Ho Chi Minh City and in a property such as the Park Hyatt , for example, which is opulent, it's luxury. It's understated elegance, right in the heart of the action as well. That is something, like I say, that money really can't buy but also the value of that property, for the service, for the hardware, for the food and beverage experience, for the location. You really don't find those price points in many other destinations and when you're used to the prices of those brands. It's nothing except a surprise which is also a fantastic positive for Vietnam and for us in the industry when recommending locations for clients that maybe aren't on the main trail, but somewhere that's been on a bucket list and I guess rounding off what we talked about before, given now that Vietnam has much better air access and great air product. · It has luxury experiences from top to bottom of the country. · It has great service. · It has amazing food. Being able to package all of that now for people to go and experience something that seemed unachievable before, I think it's something that is very nice, and something is very close to my heart having been there for a long time and knowing how incredible the country is, now being able to share that with clients and with people from around the world. Kerry Newsome: 1:00:55 You've just kind of summed up the reason why I do this podcast. Because I feel the same as you Alexandra. I think it is hard to explain to people to appreciate that the value is there, those brands are going to offer you that high end luxury, but not with the same price tag. So it doesn't mean that you're going to get a diminished level of product, you're going to get that and plus more, and that along with fantastic street food, the people, right up to fine dining. You've got watersports that you can enjoy, from kite surfing to all of that stuff. I want to ask you this question. I've been dying to ask this question of you until right at the end, I'm going to add it in. So why would you go to Vietnam instead of maybe Thailand or Phuket or Koh Samui. Because I'm sure, if you're talking to people and you're wrapping up products, they're going to ask for your suggestions. So why would you go to Vietnam versus one of those? Alexandra Hepworth: 1:02:12 I mean, I think, for me to be to be very, very open and honest, I think you get a very genuine experience in Vietnam, I think that the people are so welcoming. They really have this sense of caring for people and wanting to look after them and serving, you know, serving people and also allowing you into their homes and their lives and their culture because they are also very, very proud people. And they want to share that with more of the world than they can by themselves, and they really embrace people coming and showing an interest in the country, and they go above and beyond for you without even realizing that they're doing that. I think that, that understated eagerness to please and that genuine courtesy of care is something that I haven't seen in many other places, if any, to the level that I felt it in Vietnam and the level that I know is possible there. So, I think for me, it's that genuine, real, authentic experience that I don't think- Kerry Newsome: 1:03:42 In many places... I agree with you totally. I think just going that extra mile in service, whilst I live in a very developed country, when I've got to go to a hotel and I'm paying a really excessive amount, and I'm not getting it, I really struggle. I go, "My goodness!" I've just paid you know, $500 a night for a room basically, with no extra service, no niceties, no nothing, not even a feeling like you want me here. Sometimes I feel like I'm an inconvenience coming into this hotel, and I'm paying that $500 a night. So that does make it difficult after you've had the experiences like you and I have in Vietnam because you do use it as the bar like it's your marker against every other experience. Do I get into trouble with a lot of people, who say, "Kerry, if you say, it's not as good as I'd get in Vietnam." I’ll … I do that all the time. Alexandra Hepworth: 1:04:52 We are very lucky that we get to experience places like that. You are exactly right. We do get spoiled also. So, it does set the bar very high for other destinations. Kerry Newsome: 1:05:05 Look, Alexandra, just want to say a really big thank you for coming on the show, I think everyone's going to have some really good examples to have a think about, obviously I'm going to put all your details, so people can reach out to you separately and do some planning maybe with you around some of these experiences and locations and just great to get your insights and spend some time with you. Alexandra Hepworth: 1:05:36 Oh, thank you very much for the invite. I really appreciate it. Kerry Newsome: 1:05:48 I can't let you go just yet, I just wanted to tell you a little bit about the eBook that I released in December 22, called Book, Pack & Stay: Travel Guide to Vietnam. It's available on Amazon. It's a very different style of travel guidebook in the sense that it's not a destination guidebook, it's more about the things that you need to look for when you are booking your tour, thinking about the kind of trip that you want to design. When you're sitting down with a travel agent, or you're looking to do it yourself online, you've given some thought to the kinds of experiences that you want to have, because depending on what time of year, and those destinations that you choose, you really do need to manage your expectations a little bit. So, time wise, you've got enough time to enjoy it all. And you know, you've got the right weather in the right conditions, we talk about in the book about what to pack, the right kind of apps and bits of research that will help you in enjoying the trip and being well prepared to enjoy the trip. I don't know. So many times I've seen people with the wrong shoes or the wrong clothes, or just feeling the heat and some of these things can be managed so much better with a little bit of insight. 1:07:23 Then of course, you stay what to expect, you're going to trip over Wise, you're going to see 1000s of motorbikes, and just I hope that guide book is going to help you understand that, get it in context. And some tips and hints on just being able to make your stay so much more enjoyable. So that's the Book, Pack & Stay: Travel Guide to Vietnam. It's a nice easy price of $4.99. So, not a huge expense. You'd have it on your phone, and you're always going to be able to interact with that with the links to various apps, videos, podcasts, and of course, Amazon is going to allow you to do that very easily. So, Book, Pack & Stay: Travel Guide to Vietnam. Get your copy as soon as you can. And please send me any feedback or suggestions as I will be updating this version later in the year, because Vietnam is just that country. It's evolving fast. I want to make sure I get you the information you need that's relevant at the time. Thank you very much. Note – Important links for brands mentioned in the Podcast 1. The Fusion Group 2. Caravelle Saigon 3. Hyatt Regency 4. Sofitel Legend Metropole Hanoi 5. The Vietage Train 6. Anantara Hotel Group 7. InterContinental 8. Four Seasons 9. JW Marriott 10. Rosewood Group 11. The Regent 12. Six Senses 13. Meliá 14. Book, Pack & Stay: Travel Guide to Vietnam

S4-22 Trekking in Sapa A wide lens view What About Vietnam - S4-22 A wide lens view of trekking in Sapa [00:00:00] Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to What About Vietnam. Today we're going to be talking about a really interesting area called Sapa. Now if you don't know anything about Sapa, Sapa is located in the north western region of Vietnam. It is an overnight train trip from Hanoi or overnight by bus. And it's just the first point of contact I would think for people coming to Vietnam that want to have a look into the mountainous regions, the very scenic rice terraced fields of Vietnam. Sapa is definitely your first go to place. Today I'm joined with Jack Taylor and Jack's going to take us through this region, the Hoang Lien Son Mountains. And we're going to talk about trekking in this region. He's done some serious trekking and as you're going to see with his cinematography, which is the focus of his trip, you're going to get some really great handy information and tips if you are thinking of going trekking in the Sapa region. The other aspect is he talks about his interaction with the various hill tribes such as the Hmong, the Tay and the Dao. And I will include the link to his YouTube channel which is where you're going to actually see the fruits of his labour I guess. Jack's had an interesting career living abroad. He's lived in Spain for three years, China for four and Thailand for four. Now residing in Vietnam and doing some teaching. He says he decided to start a travel YouTube channel. One of the main reasons he says for doing this was he felt that a lot of the videos out there on travel are definitely featuring the travel destination but they're a lot about the person who's taking the videos rather than the area and he wants to focus on the people, the places, the food and the culture that he visits. And that's what really kind of attracted me to bring him on this show because I love his approach and I love his respect and his mutual love of Vietnam and the people. So I think for those trekkers out there this is definitely the show for you. Let's welcome Jack to the program. Thank you very much for having me. Look we're going to be talking about a couple of places in Vietnam that I've really wanted to get a little bit deeper into and that's a place called Sapa and another place called Ninh Binh. But before I jump into that, Jack tell us how you found yourself in Vietnam. Why Vietnam? [00:00:00] Kerry Newsome: Welcome to the what about Vietnam podcast? Great to have you on the show. [00:00:08] Jack Taylor: Thank you very much for having me. [00:00:10] Kerry Newsome: Look, we're gonna be talking about a couple of places in Vietnam that I've really wanted to get a little bit deeper into, and that's a place called Sapa and another place called Ninh Binh. But before I jump into that, Jack, tell us how you found yourself in Vietnam. Why Vietnam? [00:00:32] Jack Taylor: Why not Vietnam? I've been there twice now. This is my second trip. I think it's one of the best places to visit anywhere in the world that I've been. And one of the most interesting places in Asia. So I l I've lived in Asia now for the last seven years. Three years in China and four years, so four years in China, and now four years in Thailand. This most recent trip we had a long holiday, the world's opening up again. So I finally managed to get out of Thailand. And this is my first, this is my first trip outside of home that I've been to and outside of Thailand for four years now. So Vietnam was the first place where I went to. [00:01:09] Kerry Newsome: It's an easy place to fall in love with I totally get that. And I think what I appreciate most about how you see Vietnam is definitely through the eyes of your camera and your cinematography. And for everyone listening, you're going to be able to see some of the work that Jacks. Created because it inspired me to talk to him. And I'm really grateful that he's here on the show to actually talk about that filming and those experiences. Because when you do see the video, you go, oh gosh, that place is just so wow. It's just got so much. Wow. So let's start with Sapa and Yeah. Like talk, talk us through. Your journey, your setup, like how did you get prepared for Sapa and what was your kind of first experience of Sarpa? [00:02:04] Jack Taylor: So I went to Sapa after a couple of days in Hanoi. And anyone who's been in Hanoi knows it's a hectic crazy wild city. Almost anywhere is a complete change from that. So you take the "love bus", I take the love bus, a small bus with a compartment with my wife. It was a late an hour, eight hour drive up there. And When you first get there, it's actually a bit intense. The one thing that I didn't like about Sapa that much was that I stepped off the bus and people were hasling me for tours already, hiking, tours. Now this was something I'd already soughted out before. Hate to start with the negatives, but that was the first thing that happens as soon as you get off there. Once I found out way to a hotel and you get a look around the place you realize that it's a really beautiful mountain town. You can see the mountains in the distance and some of the architecture of the town's really nice as well. And I suppose in terms of my setup, my camera setup I didn't know what to expect there. In Hanoi when I made a video there, I was able to do a bit more research. I feel like there's a lots of videos and lots of pictures from Hanoi Sapa, less, slightly less so I was just walking around taking pictures, taking videos of the town center and some of the people in it. [00:03:13] Kerry Newsome: And, I'm glad you brought to everyone's attention just a little bit of that different presence of. Of Hagglers or sellers because they don't actually represent the vast majority of the population there. They're actually a very small group of people that, obviously they need to sell things to, to make money, to feed their families and all the rest of it. But I had a similar. Experience, and I found it quite aggressive. And I was quite shocked because even in places like Hanoi, you can go around the old quarter and you can go around places there, but you never get haggled or I never did to that extent. So I was, that was a bit in my face. I'm thinking, God, aren't I out here in rice fields and the hills are alive kind of thing. But yet I'm getting haggled. [00:04:05] Jack Taylor: Yeah I, like I say, I had a similar experience you'll notice as well with a lot of people. It's strange because I had the town experience before I then did the trekking experience, which we'll talk about in a minute. And my first thought when these people were trying to sell me trekking to is that they're dressed in the traditional outfits. What I now know is a Red black Hmong and at first I thought it was a bit gimmicky, but actually it's not. It is the traditional outfits that you'll see once you go out in the countryside and there's no tourists there. It's the same outfits they wear. So it's, I can imagine some people who never get out of the town maybe are overwhelmed by it or think it's a little bit gimmicky, but actually there is, that is part of the culture. So my idea changed after a while. [00:04:43] Kerry Newsome: It is authentic and you can't get over the intricacy of the costumes that they wear. Sometimes they take up to a year to actually make some of those costumes. But I did a program with a guest, oh, over a year ago now, and we talked about, trying to make sure that you get the right kind of trekking guide and one that does. Or is authentic and you know is gonna give you the best experience, but it's very hard to pick them. When you are the naive tourist and you're arriving there, how do you know which one is the. The good one or the bad one when they're all looking the same. And then when you ultimately go out and they're similarly dressed, but not quite the same attitude. So it's a tough one, but I don't wanna, I don't wanna go too much on it, but I just think it's worth mentioning and doing your homework and getting some guidance before you arrive is definitely. The way to go. So let's separate Sapa out into the town itself because you took us through on your video, a little bit more of the town than I actually spent time on. So maybe share with us a little bit of the town itself. [00:05:59] Jack Taylor: Yeah, it's it's quite a livey little town. Like I said to you earlier on. I expect it to be a really quiet, mountainous town. It's not, it's got quite a lot going on. Lots of restaurants, lots of bars, lots of coffee shops. They've got a large town square. There's, there seem to be lots of shows going on there. They're stage set up. A lot of the tourism in the area is based around the trekking or the, like the ethnic minority villages. But they have a large population within the town as well. And yeah, I thought it was it was very different her to Hanoi in the level of hecticness, but it's also, it maintains that a little bit in the town, but it's a nice contrast at least compared to Hanoi. You can look out even though. It's got, it's, the streets are pretty crazy. You can look out on these beautiful mountains and enjoy that too. [00:06:43] Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and I have two experiences which are. A little bit. The first one's a bit funny in the sense that when my husband and I went there, we kept going down wrong way streets on a bike that we hired. So we kept getting fined by the police who were asking for these amounts of money, which, once again, you know, that kind of went. Kerry, I should know better than this. It was in my very early days of traveling to Vietnam, so I was, yeah, one of the very naive ones. But we learned very quickly that there was a bit of a system going on there. And then in the township, I was desperate to get my hair washed. And this, I went to this hairdresser, and this is before like you're talking about bars and a real happening. The town, like we're talking. 2010 probably that we went. I haven't been back since and the township was really small and not much happening at all. And if you weren't into trekking then, there wasn't a lot to do. So yeah, so I went to this hairdresser and she washed my hair and truly I came out and I looked like. Phyllis Diller If you ever remember the American popular star. My hair was like in went straw. I don’t know what she washed it with, but it was like gasoline or something like that. So it was a bit scary. So getting into the trekking side of it. There is a little bit of small trekking to be done, just very close to the town, which a lot of the tourists do when they just do a very one night stay because they don't have time. So they just do this little meander around and it's quite pretty and it's not too pressing, but what I'm keen to talk. To you about is the treking that you've done quite out of Sapa and the advantages of going out and what to experience there. [00:08:41] Jack Taylor: Trekking is something that I do on a lot of my trips, I think it's probably my favorite to do thing to do when I go to a new country. And I think there's numerous reasons for that. One. You get to see the landscapes, which personally that's something that I'm really interested in seeing especially in Asia. Once you get out of the cities, there's some great mountainous. And really u unique, interesting places to visit. You also get to see and meet the real people. I think people who live in cities all around the world, there's some similarities. Okay. Hanoi is different to London. In many ways, but it's still a city. It's still people who have city life. Once you get out into the countryside, that's a completely different culture. You could argue the real people of a country. So you get to kinda see what life is like in, in a more rural setting. In this case, I went to Trekking for three days with the Red Dao tribe. A woman from the Red Dao Tribe and yeah, she taught us first of all, I was impressed by her level of English cuz she taught us a lot about the surrounding area, how they live and their history. And it was a really fascinating experience. [00:09:47] Kerry Newsome: And I think having the local minority groups. There to give you some advice, give you, and if you've got someone that can give it to you in English, whilst, you can always put a lot into hand gestures and pointing and, but having English speaking. Guides is a really big plus I think in these places, just so that you can get a little bit more information to give context to the region because the minority groups are so interesting when you get into their history and. The role that they've played in all of the wars that have gone on in Vietnam and all sorts of things, and their crafts, their markets, all of that sort of thing. So talk to us a little bit about the level of hiking that is required to get the best experience. Do you have to be, a really good hiker or trekker or, can you just be a hobby one like me? [00:10:49] Jack Taylor: I think there's something for everyone. Maybe I'm a bit of a weirdo, but I would say, I said, give us the hardest one. Give us the hardest track you've got. And once she said, once she's, we got AZ at you on the first day. Do you wanna do the easy way, the hard way? We went probably the hard way. What is it? Is it better? She's it's more beautiful. We said, give us the hard way. Like I said, I've done some treks or like I told you before I've done some treks around the world now I've done some treks in China for multiple day ones, some in Thailand usa. So I've got a bit of experience. However, I think it can still be enjoyed as a hobbyist, like if you just wanna do a half day tour. The first towns we walked to were actually within an hour or two of Sapa town center. They weren't the best towns. But it was still beautiful countryside. You could still really enjoy it. I think there's also options to do day trips to, to the villages and then go on tour walking tours around the villages as well. So if anyone listening who is maybe a bit intimidated by doing a three day trek then you, there are still options for you too. [00:11:51] Kerry Newsome: And. Like I, I'm wanting to drill down a little bit on this because I've spoken to other trekkers and never said, oh, it's only about, 25 Ks or 30 Ks in the total track. And some people might go, what the 20, 25, 30 Ks? I don't walk that in a year. So it's. It's trying to put some reality to it because you've got also weather conditions to consider it. It can get quite warm or conversely it can be quite cold. So talk to us a little bit just about, what sort of fitness level do you think and, have you gotta be an avid walker and go, be able to handle. My experience, you've gotta be able to handle hills, you've gotta have good footwear and you've gotta be able to handle that that just, that change in temperatures, et cetera. [00:12:42] Jack Taylor: Yeah, so on the track I did, I think the first day was 17 kilometers. The second day was 25 and then the final day was 13. So it was pretty intense track, especially that second day. Cuz the second day there was this huge valley. And in the video I'm currently making now I'm doing a more focus video on the trekking, which you haven't seen yet. But there's one day we climb up this giant hill. And then we're already pretty tired. And then we go where we at? Hiking to today. She points through the valley and it [00:13:12] Kerry Newsome: Oh no. [00:13:13] Jack Taylor: and we're like, oh, we're going over there. So that was she didn't tell us that until we got to the top of the hill. It was already too late at that point. But I would say on the trek I did, you gotta be a bit fit. The thing I found that was the most difficult like I say, I bring my cameras everywhere with me, so I've got a whole bag [00:13:31] Kerry Newsome: A lot of gear. [00:13:32] Jack Taylor: My wife will carry that one and I carry both of our clothes, so her clothes and my clothes. So I had this too big of a bag really. And over three days hiking that much, it really dug into my shoulders. So it was my shoulders more than anything that I had trouble with. Don't do it in flip flops is my first piece of advice. Bring at least a pair of trainers. I'd known this is one of the reasons I came to Vietnam and to Sapa, was to do the hiking. So I brought a nice big pair of hiking boots. So if you're gonna do the more extreme end, I'd be prepared. Bring plenty of water that kind of thing. And yeah, I'd probably done a, I've probably would try and get some experience beforehand if you're gonna do the three day one. But like I say, there's options for one day. There's options for two day, that kind of thing. [00:14:16] Kerry Newsome: Yeah. And like I think that's really great advice on the shoe wear, because I've seen some amazing. Options of people that have got off those buses and they're gonna do a two day hike. And when I look at their footwear, I just go, oh, are you kidding me? There is nowhere, there's no traction on them. They've got no concept of the slippery slidy places that they're going to be going and, yeah, crazy isn't it? [00:14:46] Jack Taylor: Yeah. The, it reminds me the first trek I ever did was actually probably the longest one, and I was probably in the worst shape. I was in Columbia, in Latin, in South America, and I did it. I was like, yeah, whatever. I'll do it in these. Plimp soul shoes and I came back, it was five days, I think. I couldn't walk for a week afterwards. Everyone that did the trek, they went on to the next place. I was like, I need to stay in this hostel for a couple of days and just relax. It's the same, it's the same in Vietnam. [00:15:11] Kerry Newsome: Yeah, absolutely. And like I've even done, small climbs, et cetera, when you do Marble Mountain near Danang and places like that, that if you don't, some people try and do it in thongs and I go, Like marble, when it's wet, it's slippery. Like you can just so easily do an ankle or, do some damage that then wrecks your whole holiday. So a really good point. [00:15:39] Jack Taylor: and if you're doing it, if you're doing it out there in the Sapa countryside, if you twist an ankle that you've got a hike, either way, you know you're gonna have to get yourself back to a main road somehow, somewhere. And that wouldn't be fun. [00:15:52] Kerry Newsome: No, and depending on who you've hired as your Trekking guide or the company that you are dealing with, likewise them having someone to, come and get you back where you know they've gotta take on the rest of the group. All these little kind of things can go wrong if you don't put a little bit of thought into it. And some people are just so casual about it. It amazes me that they just take. Thought about it so lightly and not think, gee, I better wear, and even the size of their bags I think, you, you're not gonna take that wheely bag. Like they'll be wheeling a small carry on bag. And I'm thinking are you kidding me? Yeah. So [00:16:38] Jack Taylor: Hundred, a hundred percent. You couldn't have done that on this track. Yeah. It would ditch that bag. That bag would've gone. [00:16:43] Kerry Newsome: Yeah, for sure. Talk to us a little bit about your accommodation during the treking. You've obviously stayed overnight in some home stays. [00:16:53] Jack Taylor: Yeah. I was surprised by the quality of them actually. The houses were really quite nice. The village it's very rural. So don't get me wrong, it's not a modern place, but like the quality of the houses, they were well built. We had a bed. I wasn't expecting a bed actually. Like I say, I've done some treks in other places, even northern Thailand. And usually when you stay with the hill tribes there it's a wooden house, which it was here as well, but it. Very much like on stilts. Like it very much looks like it's made in the middle of the jungle and you're sleeping on a mat on the floor. So that's what I'd expected. And then we got there and it was a fairly comfortable bed. It was a bit hard and but that, I can't complain. The quality of the house was nice. The food they cooked was absolutely delicious. So that was probably the highlight. They cooked food, all of it made from local ingredients, cuz they're agricultural people. They, it's, everything was grown locally. I remember they had spring rolls, some stir fried beef lots of vegetables. That was absolutely delicious. And probably the most unique thing about the Red Dao is they do this herbal bath. I dunno if you've heard about the herbal baths. [00:18:00] Kerry Newsome: Oh yeah. [00:18:01] Jack Taylor: And it was again, This was a lot nicer than I was expected. So we got the accommodation and then you offered it costs a little bit more. I can't remember exactly how much it was but it wasn't too expensive and it was definitely worth doing. And they run this herbal bath. I'm not entirely sure what was in the herbal bath, but it's in like a barrel. It's not a bath, it's in a barrel. So me and my wife, we had two separate barrels. It was filled with hot water and it was one of the best things you can do after a long day's hike. When you got all that sweat and all that grime on you, you're in. I wouldn't want it to, I wouldn't want think about how dirty the water would get once out once we'd been in there. But it was one of the best things to do and relax after the hike. [00:18:40] Kerry Newsome: Yeah. Now I've had a guest on the show who traveled around Vietnam with social enterprise headset looking for experiences. Where social enterprise played a role and she found herself in Sapa and in a Red Dao village. And she took that bath and she described it equally as pleasurable and as relieving for those sore muscles. After doing that trek it's interesting just about the accommodation. I get very mixed views about. Home stays an accommodation in those remote areas. Some people say they're really great and very obviously homely, but comfortable enough. And then there's some people who just can't see themselves staying that it's just beyond their comfort zone. So it's interesting. Do I dare [00:19:34] Jack Taylor: that. [00:19:34] Kerry Newsome: ask about toilets? Can you tell, are they western toilets? [00:19:39] Jack Taylor: It did have a Western toilet. Again, I was surprised about that it had western toilet. It did have a shower room, so if you don't wanna do the herbal bath, it had a whole shower room. Yeah I was surprised of the quality and, but I'm the kind of person. Who is quite comfortable with bare bones. Like I say, one of the things I like doing about the hiking is you get to go experience local cultures. The, my only question is if you'd stayed in the non-home stay house, would it have had all that? My guess is probably not. My guess is this was made up for tourists for their comfort zone. So this is Tain Village and I can find you the link for the Homestay I stayed so you can attach it at the bottom, but this one was very nice. This one was very nice. But I also think there's kind of two types of people when it comes to backpacking around Vietnam or other places in Asia. It's some people who. To go there because they can probably afford to places that are more comfortable and maybe more luxurious than what they're used to. It's obviously cheaper than backpacking around Europe, right? If you're backpack around Europe, you're probably staying in cheaper hotels, basic stuff. But if you go to Vietnam you can pay the same price and have. Like really luxurious places. I think there's that kind of person and there's the kind of person more like me who likes the wild side of it, who likes to see the things that you wouldn't be able to see in Europe or other places around the world. And that's what you'll get when you're staying in the villages. Like it is. It is very rural. I don't I can imagine some people, I imagine my family. If they visited, they'd be out their comfort zone. So it is something to make sure you would be comfortable with beforehand. But to me personally, it's one of the most fascinating things you can do. [00:21:20] Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and I think you're right, and I've got both in my audience, so I've got some people who, yeah, they can handle a little bit of raw a little bit of, discomfort to experience that. Authenticity within a region. And then there's some that just say, no that's not me. And, horses for courses like that's fair enough. But what I wanna do in the show, in, in what I do with people is I try and give them the reality side of it, not the fluff and bubble I want to talk about. So you go there with expectations that can be met, so you don't go there with Unrealistic expectations and then get disappointed or the other way around. Talk to us a little bit about how long you think is a good stay there? If people are planning to do this, what would you recommend as far as how long they should give themselves to, to have a really good experience? [00:22:16] Jack Taylor: I would say possibly even a night in Sapa town is enough and a homestay. So I would say minimum two nights, minimum. Two nights. If you are gonna do the treking part, like I say, mine was three days, two nights. So I think I was there four nights total. Like everywhere in Vietnam, I wish I had more time. I would've loved to have stayed in other home stays and there was some things in the town that I didn't check out. Mount Fanispan is one of the, one of the highlights there that I didn't actually have time for. So you could stay longer. I would say minimum two. Before moving on to either Ha Giang or maybe back to Hanoi. [00:22:55] Kerry Newsome: And did you? Did you choose a particular time of year that you wanted to go to Sapa? I'm thinking about your cinematography side of it. Did you say, no, I want to go, when it's this time of year because of [00:23:10] Jack Taylor: My job as an English teacher, so I'm an English teacher in Thailand, so it was when I got the holiday is when is how I decided it. However one thing to note I went after the harvest and the good thing about that, about trekking in that time was it was quite nice, whether it wasn't too hot. On one of the days it was cloudy, which was quite nice. It was nice and cool. The other days it was a bit sunny, which was also nice. It wasn't too hot though. If you come earlier in the year though, you can see the rice patties actually growing. So it's nice and green and as the people working in the fields, so especially what I've seen from a lot of photographers and from some other people who've been there making videos if you go at that time of year, you get to see For people work in the fields in the traditional outfits, and that's must be a beautiful site to see. I didn't get to see that. However, I think the Treking part of it was just that little bit better. Because it was mostly dry, but even I stepped into a couple of puddles and then I had my up to my ankle in covered in dirt. If you've gone closer to the rainy season, I think you're gonna get a lot grimier. It's, the trekking probably gonna be that bit more difficult and I've heard that there can be leeches. So you have to be careful. The leeches [00:24:25] Kerry Newsome: Yeah. So what month did you go? [00:24:28] Jack Taylor: I was beginning of October is when I went. [00:24:31] Kerry Newsome: Beginning of [00:24:32] Jack Taylor: And there was no leeches. [00:24:33] Kerry Newsome: bonus. [00:24:35] Jack Taylor: Yeah. [00:24:36] Kerry Newsome: So is there anything else you'd like to add for everyone listening just about trekking, Sapa would like, to make sure that we get everything out there in, in our chat. So is there anything I haven't mentioned or should have mentioned? [00:24:51] Jack Taylor: Yeah. One thing that I think might be interesting that we haven't mentioned is some of the wildlife that you'll see out when you're hiking. So the main one is the water buffalo. I'd never seen water buffalo that up close before. I've lived in Southeast Asia for four years now, but there we, there's so many water buffalo they live. They live and they work in the fields. And I was a little nervous at first because I remember the first time I came to Vietnam I was doing a bike tour in Hoi An and we, as we were passing the water buffalo, the guide I think he was taking the mick outta me, he told me that the water buffalo, they don't like the white people cuz we smell like milk. We smell like milk. And they don't like milk. They only like Vietnamese smells. I think he said they smell a foot. So he said, you gotta be careful around the water buffalo. Now our guide [00:25:39] Kerry Newsome: no, that's terrible. Oh, [00:25:42] Jack Taylor: cuz I was walking past the, we had to walk pretty closely by them and they get scared, right? So they begin to run away. So I was like, this guy told me that they don't like the smell of us. And she said, no, that's not true. He's pulling your leg. [00:25:53] Kerry Newsome: Oh, that's [00:25:53] Jack Taylor: on top of that, [00:25:54] Kerry Newsome: I'm gonna share that one. That's excellent. [00:25:57] Jack Taylor: On top of that our guide may wander. She got worried at one point. There was a big snake. We just missed it. It s slivered down the hill. But she said it was about this big. I'm, I know about 10 centimeter thick. She didn't really say how long, but it was in the grass and that's s slivered off, so you gotta be a little bit careful. She said some of them are poisonous, but most part they're okay. [00:26:19] Kerry Newsome: I wish you wouldn't have told me about the snake bit. Now I might have to cut that out because like I'm terrified of reptile. So I yeah that's good to know for everyone listening. And especially good for me to know in case I wanna do that trek. In the future. Beware of reptiles. Good to know. Jack, that's really wonderful. Thank you for sharing with us. I'm going to make sure that I put all the links to your fabulous footage that you've done. I really love your work, so we'll make sure that everyone can see that. And yeah. Just want thank you for being on the show [00:26:56] Jack Taylor: Thank you.

9d1abf46-8039-4709-ab25-207ac4f01231Ha Giang Loop adventure, Vietnam's final frontier What About Vietnam - S3-5 The Ha Giang Loop - Vietnams’ final frontier [00:00:36] Kerry Newsome: Xin chào . Welcome to What About Vietnam . Today, I'm taking you to the last frontier of Vietnam, a place called Ha Giang. That's spelled “Ha Giang.” Ha Giang actually gets connected to what they call the “Loop”. The loop is actually 350 kilometers in total. It's a spectacular region. Amazing views. You're going to see lots and lots of photos on the internet of this region, and lots of people talking about motorbike riding around the loop. I'm talking today with Tom Stone. Tom has been running tours in this area on bikes for the last 10 to 12 years. He's decided to take up roots in the area and building a boutique hotel. That's pretty exciting. He's going to give you some great insights into what to expect there from a real “living there” perspective. You're going to get, the things that you can't get anywhere else because it’s coming from someone who's really living the life and offering those tours to locals and to foreigners. Come on board today for a fabulous episode, we're going to learn lots about just what to expect in accommodation, how much time as investment that you need to put in to get the best out of the region. We're going to learn a little bit about what minority groups are located in the region. I think it's going to give you some great advice on whether or not it's the right thing for you to include in your next trip. Please welcome Tom to the program. [music] Hello Tom, welcome to What About Vietnam ? [00:02:35] Tom Stone: Hi, Kerry. Thanks for having me. [00:02:37] Kerry Newsome: Just to start with, to give people an understanding of where it is, can you talk to us about its location and proximity to the Chinese border? [00:02:48] Tom Stone: Yes, sure. It’s Vietnam's most Northern province. It's situated approximately-- it's around three hundred kilometers from Hanoi. It's also it's about 250 kilometers, approximately, from Sapa, which a lot of people know about in the North. The province border is surrounded mainly from the East and the West from the Chinese border and the far North. [00:03:19] Kerry Newsome: When I see the photos and I see that beautiful gorge, it is such-- I think we actually talked about it before and you said it's the last frontier. Is that how you feel about the region? You've been there a long time. How do you feel about the region? [00:03:39] Tom Stone: Yes, as you say, I've been coming up here for a long time, recently moved up here, but I spent a lot of my time in Vietnam up in this area. It never fails to blow me away, just how astounding the scenery is. It's a little bit like going back in time even for Vietnam. It's a lot less developed, especially in the way of tourism, than anywhere else in the country. In my opinion, the scenery is unmatched. The gorge that you speak of up in the Mèo Vạc - Đồng Văn area is absolutely incredible. Whenever I've had people go through there, I've never, never failed for them to be, "This is one of the most amazing places I've ever been to." Saying, it's very, very popular for photographers like-- Yes. [00:04:35] Kerry Newsome: I would think some of those photos would be drone photos, wouldn't they? Because they're taken at very high levels, some of them, I say. Is that right? [00:04:43] Tom Stone: Absolutely, but the funny thing is some of the best photos are just off your basic phone. You're so high up. The scenery is literally below your feet and well above your head as well. There's so much of view, which makes it such a popular thing to see by motorbike or scooter because the scenery is so huge. [00:05:10] Kerry Newsome: Talk to us a little bit about the loop because mostly Ha Giang seems to get connected to the loop. They talk about the loop. The image, and how I see it sitting in my head, is I'd say lots of switchbacks, I'd say very, very narrow trials where people are turning their bikes in awkward fashion to try and get around some of those switchbacks. I've been on the back of a bike. I know that feeling. Talk to us about the loop, talk about the what's involved with the tour and doing a loop. [00:05:50] Tom Stone: The loop, as it's known, the Ha Giang loop, has become, I think, mainly popular in the last two years. Before that, it wasn't really known about by many people. In my early days here in Vietnam when we used to go up there, and I would lead tours and things up there, they were very specialized. People would have never really heard about it and wouldn't really remember the name. They would just say, "Oh my God. The tour was amazing. The scenery was outstanding. You've got to go to North Vietnam. That was as far as it went." When Ha Giang became more popular was when there was more accessible by transport up to Ha Giang City and bike rental and bike tours from Ha Giang City. People would then do the super loop as you call it. I've seen people do it. I've done it myself in two days, but it's really not enough to get around that size of a loop. There's obviously different ways you can go and things to see the the Ma Pi Leng canyon and get right up to Đồng Văn and even Lũng Cú , which has the northernmost point, the flag tower on the border of China up there. Back to Ha Giang, I think an absolute minimum of three days to see it all. Even when I get people contacting me, I'd say, "Well, if you can do five days, even better." All these tiny little pathways and little trails that you can take to get up to some of the summits of some of these little mountain peaks and things like that, yes, can be dangerous to some serious drop offs off the side of them and stuff, but what they've also been doing is widening a lot of the popular areas There is a small trail that runs above the Ma Pi Leng canyon. You can go out there. There's some really popular-- I'm sure if you get on Google, you'll see some of the photos of people posing on the side of rock cliff faces and things like that, which are very dangerous, but the roads getting up to them. They've actually widened them since COVID, since I've been up there and exploring a bit more. They've widened them to even almost get a car up there. It's a little less dangerous now [00:08:20] Kerry Newsome: Talk to us about the minority groups and the people of the region. [00:08:25] Tom Stone: The main one seems to be in Ha Giang is the Hmong people? Then, the other ones I think the Dao , the Thái , the Nùng , and even, now, the Kinh people, which is the main Vietnamese one, but a lot of interaction to be had in this area. It's very much here got a variety of villages, different towns and things like that. Every place seems to have its own set of quirks, but very much the local people are happy to interact and engage with foreign tourists coming through. A very happy place here, for sure. [00:09:12] Kerry Newsome: When you're talking about spending three to five days in the region, let’s call it the last frontier, we talked about the loop and doing bike riding. You also said there's the opportunity to do jeep or private car, but, let’s say bike riding would be the optimal experience. You mentioned caves and trekking. Broaden our view of some of the other things that you can do in the region. [00:09:47] Tom Stone: Well, because of this influx, obviously, a lot of it stopped when COVID started. [00:09:55] Kerry Newsome: Like everywhere? [00:09:56] Tom Stone: Yes, but with the influx in the last couple of years with tourism, which is a huge thing for Ha Giang, especially Ha Giang being one of the poorest provinces in the country, this little influx of tourism is a massive thing. A lot of people got on board. A lot of people that weren't necessarily directly on the loop, but people are traveling on either, but people have popped up and started saying, "Look, I'm learning a lot about it now when I go and try and visit new areas here and things." They're saying, "Oh, we can trek up this mountain. We're offering this in our backyard and things like this." There's a lot of spots that are now coming up. Trekking even just outside of Ha Giang City, up on the Tây Côn Lĩnh mountain ranges is exceptional , really, really beautiful, a lot of untouched jungle and great scenery up there, not even far from the city yet. Then, the other thing that they're finding a lot of-- I'm hearing that they will be opening a few in the next few months to tourism, the caves and things . Probably caves are not really in size comparison to what they have down in Phong Nha , but I think equally incredible. It's another thing that you can visit along the way if it's something that you're into. [music] [00:11:30] Kerry Newsome: Now people have starting to get a brand or a location label. That's helping them zero down a little bit more on these areas. As you say, some of the caves are only just being discovered in the last five to 10 years. I know in Phong Nha . [00:11:48] Tom Stone: That's right. [00:11:50] Kerry Newsome: Even in Ba Bể Lake when I was there, there were massive caves. Really, the Vietnamese locals didn't have any idea how spectacular they were, but if I take them back and compare them to, say, Jenolan Caves in Australia, they were of similar ilk, they were just as spectacular. There was like 10 people there. That's what's mostly fascinating to me about Vietnam. Is it a world discovery tour every time you go because they've discovered something else themselves? [00:12:25] Tom Stone: That's absolutely right. I think you hit the nail there when you said that they've chopped it down into different areas to see. Now, instead of just saying something broad like, "I'll go and visit North Vietnam." I think when it was like that, it was mainly made for motor tourists that were here just to discover the country on motorbikes. That's what they would do. They would discover the whole of the North Vietnam, but in reality, the main people that come and visit here, the main tourists that come and see the place, they don't have time to see all of North Vietnam and see if the way that people do that a travelling like that on motorcycles. Now, I think that the way that they've done that is a great idea because it's now promoting a lot of repeat tourism as well because you don't just come here and see Ha Long Bay and then Sapa and then maybe one other place like you say Lake Ba Bể or something like that. In the North, you've got all these other options that are like, "Oh, wow, look at the photos here. I've got to go and see the Ma Pi Leng canyon up in Ha Giang or the markets in Mèo Vạc or something like that. Yes, it really has opened up, I think, places like Ha Giang as a place that you would specifically come back to Vietnam to visit- [00:13:45] Kerry Newsome: Visit. Yes. [00:13:46] Tom Stone: -because you need the time to see it properly you need to have the time. [00:13:50] Kerry Newsome: Time, yes, to those summits, to those peaks and to do it so that you're not exhausted because if you are exhausted, and you've had all that adrenaline pumping through you going around through all these areas, [chuckles] sticking your neck out into places that you probably are a little bit out of your comfort zone. That's exhausting. It's tiring. [00:14:11] Tom Stone: It really is. [00:14:12] Kerry Newsome: It is. Everybody's crashing at early hours of the night because you're just exhausted from the day, but you do need to schedule in time. People say-- they look at the map and they say to me, "Oh, look, it's only there. Today, it's only 200 kilometers." Well, it is, but on that road, as you and I both know, that can take a day. [00:14:39] Tom Stone: Absolutely. That's a huge misconception, especially for-- depending on which country you're from. I know that in Australia and New Zealand, 200 kilometers is like, "Oh, we just go. We'll be there by lunch." Here, we're talking about, for instance, the road from Hanoi up to Ha Giang is only 300 kilometers, but you need at least five and a half hours to get up here even by the fastest transport, which would be private car or motorbike. The buses are similar. You do need to plan around it, plan your time. That's why I say to people, "Look, if you're going to come up here, give it five days or so." It's like nothing you'll ever experience anywhere else, even in Vietnam. It's absolutely incredible. It's absolutely worth it. [00:15:41] Kerry Newsome: I agree. Let’s talk about this time of the year because you and me, when we got together earlier in the week, we discussed that it's a big factor to consider when to go because if it's raining, and some of those roads are wet, and you're trying to battle conditions like that, that can make it more dangerous. Talk to us about the best times of the year to come to Ha Giang. [00:16:12] Kerry Newsome: It's a popular place for local tourism. The thing that the local people like to see is the flowers blooming. This happens. A lot of the buckwheat fields bloom at that time. It's really pretty. It is really pretty. In my opinion, the most pretty of the area is the scenery itself. That's not particularly just the flowers. They're a nice thing to have there, but they happen at around spring and autumn time. Over here-- [00:16:43] Kerry Newsome: What month is that? [00:16:44] Tom Stone: normally around April and October sort of time . That's the time that has been very broadcast on the internet as the best times to visit Ha Giang. Now, I've been running tours up here for a long time, particularly in the last six or seven years. We came up with our true north tour. It became so popular that we were running it two times a week throughout the year. The fairer question I would say is when not to visit Ha Giang. [00:17:22] Kerry Newsome: Oh, okay. That's good to know. [00:17:25] Tom Stone: Absolutely. It is, absolutely. I think whatever time you come, you will be blown away. We had to cancel, I think, two tours in that time due to extreme weather. One was in the middle of winter, when, I think, it was about mid-January. We got ice. That was cold. We had ice on the roads. Everything was frozen up there. You're above 1,000 meters predominantly of the most of the loop and zero visibility at that time. We canceled it. I think the other time that we canceled was extreme heavy rain. That was, I think, in July at one point. That was because it was danger of landslides. Sort of been raining continuously for four days or something, very, very torrential. It was a danger of landslides. That's a danger that happens up here, but if you're watching the weather, and you've planned a trip, and you're already here, I wouldn't recommend canceling that until the last minute, until what's going on, or you've got someone that you're speaking to that's based in the region. You can plan accordingly, but just going off what you see on the internet and saying, "Oh, we can't go on this trip because it's not April or it's not October. Then, we can't go and see it." I don't think you have to do that. As I say, we've had very happy people going up there throughout the year, even in midsummer. It gets very hot, but we can use sunscreen. We can put extra layers on and cover up from the sun. That's okay. The other thing is you start to get the rain like we are now at this time of year, but I'm still out and about every day, getting out on the bikes and doing things. You get a downpour. You pull over and have a coffee somewhere or interact with the locals somewhere along the road. It's always an adventure. Then, you get back on the bike because it seems to stop as abruptly as it starts. [00:19:42] Kerry Newsome: It's a good point that you brought up just about the variances in weather because not everybody thinks it gets cold in Vietnam. [chuckles] [00:19:52] Tom Stone: Yes. That's true. That's true. I've had people get off the aeroplane in Hanoi wearing their bordies! [00:19:58] Kerry Newsome: Crazy. [00:19:58] Tom Stone: Yes. They go, "I thought I was in Southeast Asia. [00:20:02] Kerry Newsome: [laughs] [music] Just talk to us a little bit about the accommodation, Tom. Now, I know you've been running the Flipside Hostels. I know you're also in the mode of building a boutique resort. That's pretty exciting, but when you talk about this area, the last frontier, immediately go to fairly primitive homestays in my mind. Talk to us about the accommodation that a person could experience, or what's on offer for a three to five night stay up in that region. [00:20:51] Tom Stone: Yes. I think you're absolutely right there. Again, being a fairly underdeveloped area, the accommodation that was always here has been, yes, those fairly primitive stood-house-style homestays, which can be a really cool experience for all types of people, a little bit hard on the back when you're sleeping on some hard mattresses on the floor in these stood houses, but a lot of them are really nice, really clean, really good food. The families are just wonderful to drink a bit of the local rice wine with them and things like that, but predominantly that's what you got. That, I think, is what has tagged the area as, possibly, some of the more hard-adventure-type tourism. [00:21:43] Kerry Newsome: Traveler. [00:21:43] Kerry Newsome: Yes, traveler. Yes. As you say, when we think of Ha Giang it was very, very popular. It was predominantly backpackers, young backpackers that didn't-- They don't mind. They wanted that sort of thing. What we're focusing on now because there seems to be a bit of a gap in the market here, that is for the other type of traveler that want a little bit more of comfort and a break from the--how do you say the rawness of Ha Giang? Every now and then, to have some good food, nice comfort and decent beds, and places to stay and things like that. What we are doing here in Ha Giang City is trying to do something like that. Throughout the loop, what's available now? As it's become more popular, a lot of hotels and things like that are popping up throughout the area, but a lot of them are still fairly basic. I think that if people are looking to do it themselves and get up here to Ha Giang and rent a bike or something like that, it's a little bit more difficult to find. You look online and get a barrage of different accommodations that are available. It's really hard to know which ones are legitimate and which ones are actually good. A lot of them share the same photos. I'm sure, I just looked at that one, but it's another place in another town. There is more becoming available for different travelers now as well, which is a good thing, especially in the main towns. [00:23:37] Kerry Newsome: Good to know. I think for everyone listening, it's important to just explain the homestay variable in the sense that if you're staying in a homestay in Hoi An, it's like a mini boutique hotel. It's got all the comforts that a westerner would be used to. The beds might be a little bit hard. You're still looking at quite a modern set-up where the more traditional homestay is as it was deemed to be, was a homestay. It was the home of the local family. They were opening it up to visitors to come, stay in their home, experience their home life with their family, they would cook for them, etc. Things like the bathroom and the bed situation probably would be of that raw, campa-type feel to it. As you say, it's not for everyone, but it's just good to get the measure out there for people so they understand the difference because I've had people come and say, "Oh, homestays fine. We stayed at a fabulous place in Hoi An." I go, "Whoa." That's not what you're going to get in Mu Cang Chai or—Ha Giang? [00:25:04] Tom Stone: You're absolutely right. It's actually a very good point to make. We get asked a lot here. I've always considered a homestay to be the leisure of what you just explained. It's a very local thing. We stay, actually, with the family. You eat dinner with the family. The bathrooms are typically shared. If there's a private room in their homestays, it's typically occurrence that's put across. T But it's an interesting and eye-opening experience for a lot of people. Yes, it’s, as you say, very different to what I would call a homestay in Hoi An or Hanoi or something like that. It seems to even up here now that has started to deviate into nicer places being called homestays, which is typically what we are not calling our place because I think it is. There's a big difference between that raw, real homestay thing and somewhere that is the creature comforts for Western tourists. It's a very big difference. I think you would have seen yourself staying in places like Mu Cang Chai and Ba Bể , where it's all they had. I'm pretty sure what will they still have is that homestay-type accommodation. [00:26:26] Kerry Newsome: But as you say, it's morphing into a more Westerner version of the same thing. Look, to me, it's just about managing people's expectations. [00:26:39] Tom Stone: Absolutely. [00:26:40] Kerry Newsome: For some people, they get quite annoyed that they're not getting an authentic experience if they get the two modern experience. It's just about managing what people have in their vision as to what they want to experience in that region. I think there's something for everybody, but not everything is for everyone. Just what would be some tips for people coming into the area. We talked about the variance of type of person. It's not just a backpacker anymore. Certainly it’s opening up to a much wider audience, but if you were to throw some tips to my listeners as what they need to consider or things to bring or mindsets to have, What would you share for my listeners if they're going to come to Ha Giang?. [00:27:38] Tom Stone: First thing I would say is have an open mind to what you're going to experience because as we discussed, the region is so raw. That is, as we call it, the final frontier of Vietnam. Even the locals call it the final frontier , not just because it's the most Northern frontier on the China border, but because it is the last place that hasn't really been overrun by development and tourism. When you enter the place, you have to understand that. The other thing that I would say, as well as, is try to preplan as much as you can because this tourism thing is new. A lot of people jumped on board. There's a lot of misinformation if you will, especially, looking on the internet and things as most people do these days to find info. There's a lot of conflicting stuff as to where things actually are. Again, having your expectations managed correctly is an important thing. Look at contacting someone local that has been around for a while and things like that. Make sure you have a bit of a plan you've researched where you're going to go, if you're planning on doing it yourself, the type of transport you're going to be using, because safety is a huge thing up here. As we've discussed, 300 kilometers away from Hanoi. It's not that far, but it takes a long time to get there. When bad things happen up here, it's a long way to get to somewhere that can help. Anywhere on a motorcycle can be dangerous. It's important to research where you can as much as you can before you get up here, but absolutely, I'd invite people to come and see it. It’s an incredible thing and well worth visiting. [00:29:30] Kerry Newsome: Yes, I agree with you totally. Just thanks again for being on the show. [00:29:34] Tom Stone: Not a problem. Thank you very much for having me. [music] What About Vietnam. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review and stay tuned for more fun adventures in Vietnam.

S4-11 Revisiting Vietnam Revisiting Vietnam post Covid - First impressions Episode 11 S4-11 Revisiting Vietnam 00:00 / 19:53 Finally, as your host of the What About Vietnam podcast, it's my turn to revisit Vietnam and check it out for myself.
 In this show I share with you my experience from leaving Australia to arriving into Vietnam. My first visit back since March 2020. 
I share what the travel experience is like entering the country? How does it feel? 
What are my first impressions? Has HCMC changed and where are the changes most noticeable.
 Plus, my first time back in Vietnam would not be complete without me sharing with you my welcome back into Hoi An. I likewise share with you my take on getting around Saigon; Best insights into the coffee culture and just how it feels being a minority in the domestic traveller demographic. 

If you want to hear first-hand just how easy it is to travel in Vietnam in September, 2022, then this is the show for you. Straight from the horse’s mouth...so to speak!

 Time stamps to help guide you through the episode: 00.38 The Visa process in action 04.24 Arriving into Vietnam – what to expect 06.17 The domestic travel experience 08.03 HCMC – most significant changes 09.52 Getting around HCMC 13.27 Dining out and the coffee scene Saigon 17.32 Hoi An – Welcoming me back 

Mentioned in the show the A by Tung restaurant To get a little more in depth about Fine Dining in Vietnam check out The Fine Dining Episode with Raj Taneja here Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

ffec553b-eb28-4811-bb2e-1d4e55c50e8bIn all the natural beauty and culture you can find yourself How a holiday can be a life changing healing experience Episode 17 How a holiday can be a life changing healing experience 00:00 / 28:35 What about a holiday that ended up being a life-changing healing experience. “Why not”, you say. Is there a “booking.com for wellness and transformational healing retreats in Vietnam?" No, not yet, but it’s coming. Is it a safe place to visit post-Covid? Find out. My guest today, Michelle Ford, is going to help us better understand just where Vietnam is heading in this space. Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S4-14 Con Dao Islands What About Vietnam - S4 - E14 Con Dao Islands – An archipelago of pristine beauty and complexity SPEAKERS: Conor Kelly, Kerry Newsome Kerry Newsome: 00:18 Xin Chào and welcome to “What About Vietnam ”. Today we're going to talk about a beachside location called the Côn Đảo Islands. Now, when you start Googling and researching for a beachside stay, there's a lot of options in Vietnam. You've got a coastline 3200 kilometers long to choose from. Now, but these islands are quite remote, they are a cluster of 16 islands, to be factual. They are less than hour flight out of Ho Chi Minh City. But the island or the Côn Sơn Island, which is the main one in the group, is very isolated and very raw, in the sense that there's not a lot of touristy stuff to do. 01:28 So, if you do want a very chilled out state, this is definitely the location. If you're looking for a very luxurious stay, there are some absolutely beautiful resorts there. But even if you're just looking to do some snorkeling, do some nice swimming, lay on the beach, read a good book. And you really want to get away from the hubba, hubba, hubba of the world, this would definitely be my pick for you. Conor Kelly is my guest on the show today to talk about Côn Đảo. He went on a trip with some friends very recently, and he really enjoyed it. And I think what you're going to get from this is some insights into just what he expected or didn't expect or was a little bit surprised. There is a prison there with a museum. Regretfully there's quite a brutal past to that prison. So, when you do want to go and check out some history on the island. That will definitely come up. But as I said, quite a brutal past and something to definitely take it in with context. 02:46 I think also with Conor, because he's a podcaster himself. He's a great storyteller. He's also a teacher, and he's also a journalist. He lives in Ho Chi Minh City. So, it was very easy for him to pop over to the Côn Đảo islands to take advantage of this short break. But I think for everybody listening, I really want you to just get some insights into what to expect there. When you start planning, how much time you may want to spend there, if you do want to go at all. Let's welcome Conor to the program. 03:30 Hello, Conor Kelly, welcome to the "What About Vietnam " podcast. Conor Kelly: 03:35 Hey, how are you? Kerry Newsome: 03:36 We were just having a quick chat before this around the fact that we're both podcasters, and we both know what's coming next. But I'm hoping you'll allow me to go all over the place with our subject as we're going to talk about a holiday or a short break you took on the Côn Đảo islands. Conor Kelly: 04:02 Yeah, absolutely. I'm willing to go into as much detail as I can, from my personal experience and looking forward to sharing it. Because still to this day, it's probably my favorite spot in Vietnam, and maybe ever, just due to its complexity and beauty. So, looking forward to diving into it. Kerry Newsome: 04:20 That's a big statement saying, best place ever, because there's so many other beach resorts and beach destinations in Vietnam, for it to stand out amongst all of those. That's a big call. So firstly, tell us how did you came to the decision to go there in the first place? Conor Kelly: 04:43 Well, it was one of those ones where you discuss with your friends where to go as, say a vacation or a short break, and I'd been to places like Da Nang, Nha Trang, Mũi Né, Phú Quốc, and the reason why Côn Đảo stands out is because, for example, all of those features, I personally think if I was to go to them and not know where I was, for example, like somebody brought me that blindfolded, I would probably get them mixed up whilst Côn Đảo was something completely different. I think the main reason I use that is because of the amount of litter that's in the other places, the lack of I say, lack of, as if it's a bad thing. But it's good that there's no litter in Côn Đảo, the crystal-clear waters, etc. And so, I think when I was actually arranging to go, I probably can't take too much credit because I went with some female friends, and they were much, much better at organizing than I was. So, they did their research explained to me the “hidden gem” aspect and said, it's better than let's say, a standard holiday to Nha Trang or Phú Quố, why not give it a try, to which I jumped at the opportunity. So that's really how it came about. Kerry Newsome: 05:53 Okay, so you're right, when you say hidden gem, because it's really only come on the radar for tourists, I think really, just pre-COVID. It was starting to get some attention. It certainly comes up in beach conversations, but never as a standout. And for me personally, I always saw it as I have to have a lot of money to go there. Like that Six Senses Resort was really the standout thing about the place. And apart from that, the views from those windows and the sandy beaches and the beautiful, lush hillsides, etc. I had no other perspective. And I don't even know why I didn't look into it more thoroughly. So, I'm curious, what was your first impression, because you've been to Nha Trang, you've been to Da Nang, and you've been to the other places. So, when you went and arrived, what was your first impression? Conor Kelly: 07:01 I think it was probably ‘shock’, because the airport was probably smaller than my office, which really struck me, I thought, "Wow, this is really quite bizarre." Upon that, I rang the hotel that we'd booked to order a taxi. And it was just, "No English, no English. Get another taxi." So, I said, "Okay, cool." So, then I went to the taxi and said, "Taxi here." "No English ." I said, "Okay." So, I got on my phone and did the whole: 'Come to this location.' And then it hit me. Nobody speaks English on this island, which already gives it a different feel, to say, your Phu Quoc’s because generally you will find English speaking locals there, there are normally lots of expat communities there already; as it's touristy,You think this will be something they accommodate too. But this didn't seem to have anything. It seemed very authentic Vietnamese. So, I thought, Okay, this is my first view, and then driving through the mountains, or well, not necessarily the mountains, the windy roads leading up to the town center of Côn Đảo. 08:01 So, this is something slightly different, middle of nowhere, didn't see any bikes really, only two or three. Then upon arriving just how quiet it was, it almost gave me a bit of a shock as in thinking, "Why does nobody know about this? Is this mysterious?" And then from exploring and my research, I was aware of the historical influence of Côn Đảo perhaps in previous times in Vietnam, so maybe it still has that connotation? Like a war Island? Who knows? But my first impression was, I don't know, it was like a mix of mystery. But also, curiosity. And also, I guess, because some of the things I was seeing in terms of just the sunset, the beaches, the mountains, the desertness of the whole place, they seem to have it in quite a positive way. So that's what my first impression was. Kerry Newsome: 08:56 It's a good thing to bring up because I think, certainly, coming out of Ho Chi Minh City, to the quietness of that island would be a shock in itself. Like it's only a 45-minute flight, isn't it? Like it's short and sweet. I already knew about the airport not being of any grand scale. I also knew that there was very little English spoken there. So, you're right, the island hasn't really been geared up for high level tourism. There are no buses arriving and that real over tourism feel to it at all, which is what I understood. But I'll tell you how it was put to me by someone else. They said, "Look, it's absolutely beautiful. It's absolutely pristine, but past a couple of days, you've got to be really imaginative and innovative in what you're going to do. Otherwise, there's nothing. It's quiet, it's serene. But if you get bored with that, after a while, you've really got to start to look further afield." And I mean, you've already mentioned the war side of it, and the prisons, and we can go into that in a bit more detail. 10:20 So, I can understand and totally relate to what you said about the 'No English', it's quiet, like, "Does anybody really know I'm here? How am I going to function as a tourist?" Because there's some things that I think as a tourist, we still want to have this kind of creature comforts, to know that there's an ATM if I need cash, or, like really basics. And when you get to some of these places, they're the first things you think about, "Well, how am I going to get around? How am I going to do things in this place?" So, from what I understand, accommodation wise, there's either on the beach itself, or it's closer to the town, Côn Sơn, is that right? Conor Kelly: 11:11 Yeah, I believe. So, we ended up going past all of the Six Senses and resorts that were 5-stars and ended up luckily finding a place we booked in advance that was of, I guess, normal pricing, I think it was still quite expensive than what you would get in another place. But it wasn't extortion, it was reasonable. Kerry Newsome: 11:33 So, would that be like a 4-star place or 3-star? Conor Kelly: 11:37 If I remember correctly, it was a three star it was almost standard, like hotel room with a balcony, which was fairly nice, TV, etc. But it was a far cry, I guess, from the results that come up straightaway, like your Six Senses, etc., which are slightly further away from the main town center. I think it's still gotten places like hostels, it's just, you have to realize they don't speak English. So, it will be a bit of a tricky one. I still remember just little things like asking for a motorbike, it took 10 minutes, even with Google Translate, when in other places, it's just, "Motorbike yeah? 120 for the day" There you go. So little bits like that. But we ended up in like a 3-star one, I believe, in the town center. So, that suited well. Kerry Newsome: 12:21 Alright, so you were there five days. So, I'm curious, what were some of the things you decided to do to take in the island? Conor Kelly: 12:29 Well, we had an itinerary, which was good, because I concur with that point that after the first couple of days, once you get completely, I guess, once the novelty wears off, that you're on this beautiful, mysterious island, you could get bored. And we had a bit of a weird situation, to be honest. It's a strange one, our flights got rearranged on the way back without them telling us. So somehow, this situation, like transpired where the flight had already been, but we had to get back, and they hadn't told us. So, it was all a bit up in the air. And with that, I ended up getting stuck on the island for a bit longer, which was great. So, that's when it hit me that. Wow, yeah. Because I'm now stuck on this island, I was stuck. I mean, I could go home two days later. That means that, "Oh, what do I actually do?" And as I was thinking about what I will actually do, I thought, "I'm probably just going to sit on the beach, read a book, have some coffee", very basic things, which was great. Don't get me wrong, but I was thinking, "If I was here for an extended period, that's all I could really do." 13:33 We had our itinerary, like going back to what I mentioned, which was to go snorkeling, then was to go hiking, then was to visit the museum and the prisons. And that was really about it. I'm sure there are other things we could have done but fitting it into like our period where we could also have beach time, there we go. So yeah, I would certainly agree with that. We definitely got to see little bits. And we spoke to locals who had to develop their English, I was lucky enough to interview our tour guide for my podcast, which was amazing. But after a while, you can get slightly bored. I probably wouldn't want to go solo. Because I think the beauty of the trip is experienced in this incredible place with people whilst if you're just by yourself, you can feel very isolated because as you mentioned, a great phrase, "Nobody knows you are here". So, it can be isolating and probably lacking in stimulation. Because there are many activities quote, unquote. There are a few bars that we managed to find, but not very expertly populated, but you wouldn't be able to interact. I think I counted five foreigners the whole time I was there, as I'm seeing it now sounds like a lot, because it didn't feel like there was even five. I was looking around, thinking there's no one. So, it's a bit of a strange one. Kerry Newsome: 14:53 Yeah, and I've only been to a few places in Vietnam where I've looked around and I've gone- because I've got blonde hair, and I would look around and I'd go, "I think I'm the only white person here." I get the feeling that Côn Đảo is a little bit similar. And people say, when you see the photos and all the rest of you go, "Well, why aren't more people going?" I think we've actually hit the nail on the head. And that is: It's not super good for trendy bars on the beach. It doesn't have an entertainment aspect to it. Kids wise, they've got to really be into snorkeling and maybe watching the turtles and, and doing that, maybe some hiking and things like that. But there's no artificial aspects to it to add on another layer. I think, in a good way, it's still pretty raw. And I think if you're into that rawness and that untouched aspect, that is what you would enjoy. But as far as a lengthy stay, it would depend on if you really wanted a wellness aspect to your stay where you really do want really quiet and whatever, you'll definitely get it there. I was going to ask you about roosters, whether they still woke you up. But I don't think you're going to get karaoke bars and things like that. Conor Kelly: 16:30 Yeah, exactly, none of that stuff. It was very much like the rawness was its appeal, not for anything like touristy. Kerry Newsome: 16:38 Yes, exactly. So as far as those things to do were concerned, can I break down a couple that I'd just like to know a little bit more about? So, there is a national park. And I believe the National Park is quite beautiful and teeming with wildlife. And that is Côn Sơn. Did you decide to go and venture through that and do some hiking? Or was there any interest in that while you were there? Conor Kelly: 17:05 I think we were trying to. We were trying to find, say, an official hike to do to go with the wildlife. But for some reason, we weren't able to. Perhaps the tour guides weren't available. I can't exactly remember. But we found someone to take us trekking. It has its similarities to a point. Then once we ended up going through the trek and getting to the top of the mountain, quote unquote, even though it wasn't an official mountain. We then went snorkeling, which was something we'd done the day before. So, it wasn't like- snorkeling was great. So, it's not like, "Oh, here we go. We have to snorkel again." But it was like, "Okay! Snorkel again." Just because it's there. In terms of hiking and experience in the wildlife, that's not something that we did, I guess, the official way, but we did some trekking. Kerry Newsome: 17:49 Right. So, on the snorkeling side of it, did you decide to go out? Because I think there's about 16 islands that constitute Côn Đảo islands from a plural sense. Are there any people that can take you out to some of the other islands? Can you do some snorkeling in other places? Because I do believe the coral and the sea life is quite amazing. Conor Kelly: 18:17 Yeah, we were brought out to a few of the surrounding islands, which I wasn't too familiar with. And there's a, there's a small boat that does that for you, where you have the Vietnamese who will bring you and there'll be, say, within five to six people and then your crowd, and they take you from island to island. You do your snorkeling. And then it's rounded off by relaxing on a beach not too far away. The actual experience of that would have been amazing, except for the fact that the waves were extremely rough on that particular day, and a lot of people were getting sick. So, it was slightly mixed, where you'd be getting bumped around. Waves were crazy. People were getting sick. But except for that, if I was to dive like, for example, when the water was calmer, it was amazing. It was just on that note, it was a bit wild. But that's what happens. You can be brought around by the Vietnamese when you go there Kerry Newsome: 19:15 I guess also for historians, and for people who want to delve back into the history of Vietnam. Certainly, the island holds a lot of some brutal history to do with the prison and definitely the way political prisoners were treated in such a brutal way in the prison. So, it's become quite famous. I understand that. Did you decide to go and have a look at the prison or the cemetery or the museum? Conor Kelly: 19:50 Yeah, all of the above. We thought we'd have a look just to get some historical impact. That's one reason just to see what it's about. Well, the second reason is going back to what we mentioned earlier, we've done the trekking and the snorkeling. What else is that by the beach? So, let's try this. So, it was a combination of factors. But upon going there, it's a strange one, because I've been to the war museums in Ho Chi Minh and Hanoi, and I'm sure somewhere else, however, it's probably Côn Đảo. That's probably what's on my mind. So, I don't think it differed enormously from those two, to be honest with you. Maybe if I had to make a distinction, you actually went into the rooms, the chambers that were used, and there are statues and exactly what happens. So, if you go up close and personal, it can be a bit slightly brutal, slightly harrowing, especially if you try empathizing with what was happening, hundreds of years ago. 20:46 So, it's a strange one. That's definitely the distinction. In terms of the museum, it was fairly similar to the ones you get Ho Chi Minh and Hanoi. There was some slight- I guess, more historical context about the actual island and what that was used for, which was interesting. Because I wasn't previously familiar with it. It does explain the mystery of the place where if I speak to Vietnamese. Some of my Vietnamese friends about Côn Đảo, that's the first thing they say. It's not how beautiful the beaches are. It's not about the scenery. It's always "Oh, yeah, at the war place." So, I do think it has that spooky feel about it still, which can deter locals. But expats may not be so put off by that because of the difference of generation. So that's really what it was. They're all fairly near each other, to be honest with you, and not too expensive to go, I think within 50k to 100k. So, fairly near the beach. So, it's easy to explore and check out. That was my interpretation. Kerry Newsome: 21:50 Yeah, it was a dark place to go for me when I went into to do some serious reading on those prisons, and just, how the French built the prisons and what they were used for, right up too, and including the American war. So, that was a dark area of discovery about the island. But certainly, as you say, I think it does have that stigma. And I think it's possibly one of the reasons that Vietnam hasn't decided to consider it or promote it to its own people. 22:40 Getting on to the other things to do. Can you talk to us about food? Like, were there any cute restaurants? Or did you move amongst hotels to get some different aspects of food? Because I'm thinking in my head also that could have been an interesting delving experience. Conor Kelly: 23:08 This is where I feel slightly embarrassed, because usually when I will go to a new place in Vietnam, I'll do some research beforehand on certain types of food that you must get from there, for example. Upon coming to Côn Đảo, I was really just curious about what it was. It was at a point of my Vietnam journey where I hadn't been here. I think I can't remember; I think what I said, I hadn't been here that long. I've been here about a year. So that's long enough. But upon going, I remember thinking, "Oh, what is different about Côn Đảo Vietnamese food?" I was almost just looking at the menu and choosing what I would choose everywhere else. I had this tradition when I was younger, I say younger in my Vietnam journey, where I would look for great western spots abroad, not abroad, but in just different tourist destinations just to I guess, familiarize myself with. If I'm on holiday, I can treat myself a bit more. 24:05 So, there were some amazing western places in Côn Đảo, which surprised me. It really surprised me actually, because I thought that the whole vibe would be very Vietnamese orientated. But I think that was recommended by a friend of a friend. So that's how it all came about. But in terms of the Vietnamese food cuisine there, I'd probably say the seafood. The seafood was up there. The first meal we had, unsurprising, I suppose. But that was definitely something. I mean, it was quite expensive for what you got, but overall, the food was decent. Kerry Newsome: 24:41 It is, being an island, you would think the seafood would have to be good. Actually, it's not going to be good there, like where is it going to be good? So, that's good to hear. 24:58 So, Conor, would you say five days was long enough or too long, or something in between? Conor Kelly: 25:06 Probably just about enough, if not too long, I would advocate three or four days to be honest with you. I think that's enough time to be amazed by the beauty. Also see everything and not get too bored. Kerry Newsome: 25:21 Yeah, and that's been my feeling as well, as far as when people have asked me about a side trip from Ho Chi Minh City. As we've talked, there's Nha Trang, there's Mũi Né, there's Phú Quốc, and of course, there is Côn Đảo. But as far as 'how long', I really am glad you've said that, because I'm like you. I can get just totally overwhelmed with the white beaches, the sunsets, the long cold drinks, but by day three, I'm starting to get a bit of itchy feet, and I'm going, "Okay, so, what's next?" So yeah, I'm glad you've narrowed that up for me. 26:12 I'm also told by my travel company that the best time to go is March to September. Would that be right for you? You mentioned the waves and I have heard out of season; those waves can get quite big, and it can be quite turbulent. So, do you still think March to September is the best time, or later, or earlier? Conor Kelly: 26:36 Yeah, definitely. Because if it rains, I feel like Côn Đảo suddenly loses an enormous amount of its appeal, in terms of the activities you can do. And the scenery, it would lose a huge part of that. So definitely, if you are thinking I would advocate going at that time. I know a friend who went on Tết holiday, I think. I think it was Tết holiday. But for some reason, the weather was-bad. Kerry Newsome: 27:00 February, March. Conor Kelly: 27:02 And it was just nothing. So yeah, go around that time, I'd recommend. Kerry Newsome: 27:11 Is there any kind of must do's or must don't dos? Is there anything to be warned, people should be aware of? You mentioned some of the aspects of not speaking in English. I think that was good to mention, that there isn't going to be that hospitality trend in Vietnam, where most people in hospitality have got some level- good of English to get around. But do you have any like, 'beware of’. I've heard maybe you need to bring repellent for sandflies. Apparently, the sandflies are pretty raucous on the beaches. Conor Kelly: 27:53 Anything you should be aware of. A good book. Yeah, definitely bring good books. Yeah, I'd say, definitely do that. Definitely bring some good books. Kerry Newsome: 28:03 Or bring a good podcast. There is one. Conor Kelly: 28:05 Yeah, exactly. Kerry Newsome: 28:06 You download a good podcast? Conor Kelly: 28:08 Yeah. I have some recommendations, I'm sure. Yeah, make sure you're in good company, which I'm sure you will already have planned. Kerry Newsome: 28:20 You mentioned just about the flight issue coming back. Did you book that directly with the airline? Or did you go through with your friends and through a travel agent? How did you actually go around booking it? I meant to ask. Conor Kelly: 28:34 A good question. I think it was through Vivu Travel. I think so. I can't remember if it was their fault or the airline's fault that we weren't informed. But yeah, that's another thing I should have mentioned actually. The flights can be tricky. There's only three or four a day, both to and from, at very awkward times. I think the latest is 2pm. So, it's not one of those where you can go for a weekend where you'll go on Friday night and come back Sunday night, which I've done with Da Nang, which can't really happen. So, it's a tricky one, I'd say with flights. That makes it slightly more awkward. So, beware of that Kerry Newsome: 29:17 In comparison to Nha Trang, Phú Quốc, Mũi Né, you would still rate it as number one beach escape? Conor Kelly: 29:28 Number one beach escape? Yeah. And the reason is just because of how beautiful it was, as in the untouched waters, the beautiful sand, the weather, etc. In terms of I guess if you want to escape to go partying, for example, for a week or so, or have like a real western spot, then go to Phú Quốc, but I think Con Dao as a beach escape is number one. Kerry Newsome: 29:50 Brilliant.Transcript Outline Time stamps to follow 4.43 The “hidden gem” aspect of the islands 7.01 First impressions 11.11 The accommodation scale 12.29 Nobody knows you are here – the feeling of isolation 16.30 Discovering the islands “things to do” 19.15 “The war place” 23.09 The food experience 24.57 Time out – how long is long enough? 27.11 Must do’s and don’t – Watch for flights in and out

S5-E22 - 10 things travellers may not know S5-E22 - 10 things travellers may not know Episode 22 S5-E22 - 10 things travellers may not know 00:00 / 1:11:30 What About Vietnam – Kicking Off 2025 with Ian Paynton To start the year with a bang, I wanted to explore some essential insights for travelers to Vietnam –things that first-time visitors might not know but, if they did, could make their experience even richer. Joining me for this deep dive is Ian Paynton, a Vietnam enthusiast who has spent years uncovering the country’s hidden gems. Through his podcast, You Don’t Know Vietnam, and his agency, We Create Content, Ian focuses on helping international brands build authentic and engaged audiences in Vietnam. But that’s not all – he’s also gained fame in Vietnam’s music scene as a rap star. Be sure to check out some of his tracks: • Oi Gioi Oi • The Charming Beast In this episode, we explore 10 fascinating things about Vietnam that might surprise you, including: [00:02:59] (1) Surprising perceptions of Vietnam [00:06:23] Cities worth exploring in Vietnam.. [00:15:08] (2) Pho variations in Vietnam. [00:20:05] (3) Expect the unexpected in Vietnam. [00:23:31] (4) Things are done differently in Vietnam. [00:28:36] (5) Social media's impact on Vietnam. [00:30:45] Train Street's social media impact. [00:35:02] Ha Giang Province exploration. [00:41:11] (6) Next big tourism attraction. [00:46:03] (7) Vietnamese music festivals [00:48:50] (8) Tinder scene and how to avoid scams [00:52:27] (9) Pronouns and hierarchical addressing in Vietnam. [00:57:09] (10) Ethnic diversity in Vietnam – where to find those 54 minority groups [01:00:31] Respecting local cultures in Vietnam. [01:04:45] Value for money in Vietnam. This episode offers a fresh take on Vietnam’s culture, quirks, and evolving identity, making it a must-listen for both first-time visitors and seasoned travelers. Start your 2025 journey with new insights and a deeper appreciation for this dynamic country. Thanks for listening and don’t forget to reach out via “message speak” on our website or via email if you have any questions. Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-E19-Facelift and Dental surgery Vietnam – A good news story S5- E19 Facelifts and Dental Surgery Vietnam – A good news story Kerry Newsome : Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Well, people, this is probably a travel experience or an experience in Vietnam that you probably won't see everywhere. It's certainly an experience in Vietnam that is quite unique and a little bit left to field of what I have normally featured on the program since I've been going since 2020, believe it or not. However, it's a story that we think needs to be told. And it's come about through us building a very close relationship with a dental and cosmetic surgery hospital based in Saigon. And this has come about for Kelley and I, well for her much longer, over 10 years, for me in the last couple of years. And we're at the point now where we think it's time to share. It's time to share with you what we know, what works, how we can bring Vietnam to the stage for cosmetic and dental surgery. Of course, Thailand and Bali and possibly even India have already earned their badges in this space, but we think Vietnam is definitely the newcomer to this area. And while we're not putting hand on heart to say that every hospital or every dental clinic in Vietnam has this credibility. We can say it hand on heart about Worldwide. We've had a very close relationship with the hospital from their top exec team down. And now in this episode, we get to share with you Kelley's facelift procedure. I was lucky to be part of that as her support person. And we're going to go through kind of all of the facets of that procedure. Not, you know, not the nitty gritty awful bits. of which, thankfully, there isn't too much. But, you know, just of the common questions that we do get asked, we hope that we've got those covered in this session. And please feel free to reach out to us directly. That's either to Kelley or myself, or you might like to join our new Facebook group called Facelifts and Dental Vietnam. So, I hope you enjoy the show. I know it is a little bit off the beaten path, but if you've been considering this kind of surgery, you know, something dental, something cosmetic in your own country and just thought it's just too much or possibly you wanted to be away and have that procedure with a little bit of anonymity, you know, Vietnam would definitely be the place as, even though Kelley went through this as a serious procedure, she was able to recover quite quickly and we still managed to have a great holiday experience. And, you know, there sort of in lies the marriage between What About Vietnam as a travel advisor and planner to medical tourism. So we hope you'll enjoy the show. And as I said, please feel free to ask us any questions. Anyway, let's bring Kelley onto the show and let's chat everything to do with facelift surgery in Vietnam. Here we are with Kelley McCarthy sitting in Saigon. And let me tell you, this trip has been a very different one. And you're going to hear all about it shortly. But suffice to say that it's been an experience, maybe a once in a lifetime kind of experience, but we thought it was important that while we were still here, while we were still, I guess, in the moment, we wanted to kind of share the experience with you. So please welcome Kelley to the program. Hi, Kel. Hi. Okay, so Kelley, I've got a few big questions for you, honey. So we wanted to start with the subject of facelifts and dental work in Vietnam. Now, we know we're going where angels fear to tread, as in, you know, you might be thinking of an overseas destination to have this kind of work done, but possibly your first choice would be Thailand, or even India to some degree, but not Vietnam. Vietnam really hasn't taken the stage yet for this kind of work. However, over the last 12 to 18 months, we have further developed a relationship that Kelley started in the dental area about 10 years ago. So it's not as if we're the new kids on the block here. It's not as if we've just walked the streets and, you know, walked into a front door of a place that said dental or something that looked flashed that said cosmetic surgery as we were rushing through the door with enthusiasm. We went, no, let's start with who we know, what we know, and really the birth of this started with Kelley's relationship from a dental perspective 10 years ago. But today, I really want to focus on Kelley's experience in having a facelift. There is another episode in the series where Kelley does talk about the dental aspects of her duration, I guess, or livelihood with dental and worldwide hospital. So you can get that and I'll put that in a link in the show notes. But to start off with, I thought, you know, we would start at the basics and just, you know, Kelley, can I put it to you? You know, why did you want a facelift? I think you're gorgeous just the way you are. But like, you know, everything and these kinds of decisions are very personal. So, you know, why did you want to do this? And maybe then add to that, why did you feel confident to do it in Vietnam at Worldwide? Kelley McCarthy : So for me, I'm 53, fast approaching 54. I have a 14 year old son. And every morning when I looked in the mirror, I was seeing visions of my mother look back at me, which was never a good thought, realistically. However, I could just see ageing creeping up. I could see the neck starting to drop down. I just wanted a little bit of a refresher and I thought, what were my options for it? Probably another contributor was my 14 year old son would have fun giggling and laughing with me sitting on the couch and pulling and plucking at my little layers of skin underneath my chin. So that was that was kind of the real big push to look at opportunities for it. The reason I chose Worldwide was, like you said, I've had a relationship with them over the last 10 years, referred numerous people across for dental felt very safe and secure in knowing that they would look after me. So as compared to going into another hospital, I'd just be another number in the system. I wouldn't know the surgeons, I wouldn't know what they did. So I did a lot of pre-surgery research in discussing it. As you know, I come across here quite regularly. So I'd been to the hospital, I'd looked at options, discussed options with them, and I think Price was a really big factor as well, because in Australia, I just wouldn't have been selfish enough to spend the money that it requires to have done what I've done, because that's a large chunk on a mortgage or a new car or renovation or something to that calibre. Whereas here it was a lot more affordable. Kerry Newsome: And I think, you know, we can't dismiss that. I think the value side of this kind of surgery and the attention to detail that comes with that, you don't have to sacrifice anything to still get what you want. you know, and we were very clear and, you know, like Kelley and I are going to talk a little bit about the process, but, you know, just because it's cheap, it doesn't mean you're going to get a less experienced doctor or, you know, have to forego or sacrifice certain things to, you know, get, you know, three quarters of what you want. In fact, there were things that were added into Kelley's surgery that she didn't ask for, but was very thing when it came along. So, you know, I think we have to accept that, you know, it is an expense. It's a cost. And, you know, when you're making these decisions, and this includes dental, we've had some wonderful experience with customers that you know, have had dental quotations for work that they want done back in Australia. And, you know, there's lots of zeros in those quotations. So, you know, they're quite saddened that they can't proceed in their own country. But when they come here and they find, you know, the doctors can give them what they want at an affordable price, you know, the relief on their face, the happiness on their face is just sheer joy and then with the final result. So let's start, Kel, when we talk about process. Let's kind of begin with the consultation and the options there for everyone. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, so I was lucky enough to do a face-to-face consult. That was because As you all know, I'm here quite regularly. However, that opportunity is still there to discuss via phone call. So you can do that via a WhatsApp number. You could also do they're open to arranging a Zoom face to face as well. So we can do that. We can arrange that for you or you can put it in emails what you're actually after, send some photos and then they can give you a guided quotation. What I would always suggest is maybe just allow a little bit more just in case, because like anything, when you do an actual face to face, you can see exactly where we're sitting at. with it. But like I said, nothing altered for myself. Just got a few extra little offers on the morning before surgery that I was like, yep, run with those. You're going to take fat from where and put it where? I'm all for that. Kerry Newsome: Go for it. Yeah. And I might add, Kelley also was here a couple of days earlier and they had a wisdom tooth issue. And so before you know it, she's having tooth whipped out a couple of days before even the facelift surgery and I'm going oh what the… Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, so I went in just for my regular dental clean and he'd sort of said, we've spoken about this before Kelley, you've got a wisdom tooth at the back there that's looking compromised, I think we should take it out. So I sort of looked at them and said, but I've got a facelift in seven days time, is that going to compromise anything? No, no, whoop, downstairs, got my face all numbed up in the chair, back out, all done and dusted in 45 minutes. And to be totally honest with you, I know if you have a wisdom tooth done in our country, You are ice packed up, you come out looking like a chipmunk with the big headband of ice packs. I was given an ice pack, taken away, some painkillers, and I'll be totally honest with you, the healing was so much quicker. I didn't have any of the effects of general anesthetic from the Wisdom Tooth, it was done all under local, and I actually had to go back the day after to actually ask them to flush out the wound because it felt so good, I chewed on that side. Kerry Newsome: That's testament to how good it was. Yes, I don't see too much evidence of it inhibiting any enjoyment factors of your stay with your husband and your son during that period. And this is all just kind of a few days before the actual facelift operation. So I kind of arrived as a so-called support person to go through this process because I'm not going to say we came here with absolute 100%. faith that everything was going to go smashing well. We came here with, you know, a great sense of confidence because, you know, we do have a strong relationship from the, you know, the management team and the owners and founders down. So, you know, we know that they're going to be taking a very watchful, careful eye over. But like anything, and Kelley and I have talked about this in the last few days, just about that leap of faith thing, you know, with any kind of surgery, any kind of surgery, you know, anything can happen. So, you know, we kept that in mind and we're going to talk about some of the considerations. So, maybe the first consideration to talk about is support person. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, so Kerry put a hand up to come across as my support person. I don't know if that was for excuse language shits and giggles, but it's really important that your support person is a person who is confident and if you need anything, would be able to go out and achieve your request. So If you are bringing an anxious traveller with you, that's not really the kind of support person you need. You need someone that's going to make you feel comfortable knowing that they've got your back. So that's first tip on your support person. Kerry Newsome: Yeah. And I think someone that knows you pretty well, you know, that is not going to do it worse. Definitely. Exactly. And, you know, you don't need any extra drama. You need someone also that can communicate with the staff at the hospital, which, you know, they're really terrific, but you will be engaged with those staff to, you know, accommodate any of that person's needs at the time. Sometimes, you know, they can be a little bit bizarre, But others are just, you know, can you go and get this? Can you get that? Blah, blah, blah. You know, I brought my bag. Can I get my phone out? Can I get my glasses to read? You know, just little, little, little things that, you know, happen along the way to make sure that, you know, the person that's having this surgery is feeling as confident and comfortable that, you know, everything is set. You know, she didn't hand over a will or gave me a safety deposit box number. But, you know, she made sure that, you know, I can contact her husband and da, da, da, and update him, which I did. So he was, you know, back in Perth, Australia while this was happening. And he was just getting the good photos. Not necessarily those early ones. Which were pretty graphic. Kelley McCarthy: So that's probably another thing. Make sure your support person is somebody that doesn't have a weak stomach. Kerry Newsome : Yes, not going to faint on the first look. Exactly. So maybe the second consideration is your length of stay. Kelley McCarthy: yeah so they will tell you that stitches come out so for this is for a facelift stitches come out at 10 days and you're good to go. I've stayed 14 just to have that little buffer on the side to really feel reassured that I am safe to go on that flight. I would have been safe at 10 days, I think, but it was just good. And like today, before I'm leaving tomorrow, I'm definitely going to be going to the hospital just to make sure everything is A-OK, there's nothing I need to worry about, no more tablets, no more anti-bruising tablets, no antibiotics or anything. So it's just nice to have that reassurance of it. And the hospital will accommodate you in every step of the way and help you out. For example, for me, my hair, just not being able to wash my own hair every couple of days, the hospital would be, Kelley, pop down or we'll send the driver for you. They washed my hair, gave a little bit of a blow dry. Of course, there's no styling there, but a little bit of a blow dry. But you came back to your room and you could hair was clean, it didn't feel hot and sweaty or anything. So it's just those little extras that were really helpful. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and you know, speaking of the hot and sweaty bit, I think having an air-conditioned vehicle pick you up from your air-conditioned hotel taking you to, you know, a quality hospital. You know, when we talk about this hospital, we're not saying it's a five-star resort hospital that sometimes you'll see in your Instagram photos in Thailand and things like that. It is, you know, a really good quality hospital. However, don't expect it to be at that level or standard. However, in saying that, having the opportunity to go back and forth, and like we were doing it, was it every second day? Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, I was going every second day. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, so they were changing if there was any need changing any bandages, they were applying cream, they were kind of, you know, just doing all those little fiddly bits because… Cleaning the wound that I didn't feel comfortable with doing, so they were doing that. Yeah, and all that just ticks those boxes of confidence. You know, like we were kind of comparing some friends and stuff like that, you know, that we know have had it in Australia and stuff like that. Like you walk out the door sometimes in those situations and they'll say, okay, we'll see you in two weeks, or we'll see you in 10 days, or we'll see you when the stitches are out. So the gap between A and B in that situation, you know, you get nada, you get nothing. Where we're kind of back and forth, the head of administration that's looking after Kelley is texting her a message, checking in with her every morning, how she's feeling, Like, hello? I haven't heard of those kind of experiences back in our country. Kelley McCarthy: No, it's just reassuring too. So there's days where I would wake up and my stitches would feel itchy and they might have felt a bit hot. That's probably because I've got a clinical mask on that's, you know, wrapped from my neck up. But I would start to have that, oh my goodness, it feels a bit warm. It's a little bit itchy. Does that mean I've got an infection? So, nope. I ring up the hospital, go in, have my wounds cleaned. And you get that, it's looking fantastic. Everything's great. So it was just that little bit of reassurance where you're not going to get that in your own country. They're going to tell you to clean your wound. They're going to tell, you know, oh, if you've got anything unsure, well, stitches behind your ears. You can't really tell if everything's OK because you can't really see around corners. So just that reassurance was a really big thing for me. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, absolutely. And would be for me too. While we're talking about the relationship with the doctor, the surgeon and, you know, this consult bit, I want you to speak, Kelley, to just about being clear about what you want. Kelley McCarthy: Yes. So be really assertive about what you want and make sure that they're understanding what you want. So for me, I didn't want that whole. windswept, I call it the cat in the hat look, cat lady look. I still wanted and it was something I was really, really careful about. I still wanted my lips to retain the same shape and I wanted my eyes to retain the same shape. So for me, that was a really important thing. It was about a freshen up. Yes, I probably could go tighter, but I didn't want that really, really tight, tight look. I still wanted a little bit of movement. And to be honest with you, I don't know how people really do that whole cat lady look, because it's really tight around your neck where you've had the neck lift and the liposuction done and everything like that. So for me, I've got the outcome that I really wanted. And like you said, you don't really know when you're going in, and that's with any surgery. You assume and have a vision in your own head, but you're not really 100% sure that's how it's gonna be when it come out. And this time I'm really happy. Kerry Newsome: And do we wanna talk about sedation choices here as a little story with that? Kelley McCarthy : Yeah, so when you come over here and you have it done, they do what's called IV sedation. So recommendation to everybody is do your research on IV sedation. It is a very twilight form of sedation. So you're just floating on the edge of a sleep and awake. And you don't really, I'll be honest with you, you can wake up slightly in it, but you don't really know what's going on. And for me, I did. I woke up in it to the two surgeons on me. I could see they were doing something, but I honestly didn't feel anything. I raised my hand and did a little bit of a And don't remember anything after that, but don't remember any pain related to that. So just keep in mind that with IV sedation It is that floating in and out of that twilight zone. You can opt though for full general anaesthetic But your recovery is going to be a lot a little bit harder on that too So for me, I actually felt really comfortable with IV sedation more so than general anaesthetic because I get incredibly ill with general anaesthetic and I still was a little bit ill with the sedation. So for me, it was a far better option because vomiting after a facelift is not really a great choice. Kerry Newsome: No, and I think once again, it gets back to choices. It's about knowing your own body, how you have performed in other situations where you've had anaesthetic and things like that. So, you know, your medications and all the rest of it, they want to know all of that history beforehand so that they go fully informed. So, you know, Kelley was a bit in woo-woo land when she came out of it and, you know, the pain was still managed. But maybe this is a good way, Kel, to segue into, you know, just, you know, your process of recovery now. from coming back to the hotel the next day through to getting the stitches out. So we're talking that maybe start the first three days. Kelley McCarthy: So I had the surgery, I believe it was about 10.30 on the Saturday morning. Correct. I was actually discharged by about 8.30 on the Sunday morning. And I tell you, when I got back to my hotel, just being in my own environment and my own space, was a great feeling anyway. I knew you were, you know, a text message or a phone call away. I knew I was in the hotel. I could get room service, which is a really important point and choice when you get in your hotel. Going back to something only three star, I wouldn't recommend splurge. Get at least a good four star or five star where you've got a room service menu as well, because you tend to dribble and eat and and all of the bits that go with it. And your choices, you want to know that they've got a good soup menu because soup is really all you can have for the first couple of days. By about day three or four, I think I ventured to noodles or something like that. Kerry Newsome: Yes, I saw you sucking those noodles up. Kelley McCarthy: My recovery for me, and everybody would be different, I actually found it really quite an easy recovery. I think by day four, I was out getting my nails done. Then I was getting pedicures. You know, I was out of it. You were thinking up places to go and shop. I was doing some shopping, which is the bonus. I'm one person in 10 million in a city. So that is a bonus. You just have that little bit where you're not going to walk down the street and see Mary or Betty or whatever. Kerry Newsome: We've got a range of scarves in there. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, my headdress was, I put scarves around it, because at first I was a little bit self-conscious of the bandages, so I put scarves around it, but by, I think by about the fifth day I was just out rocking the headband. Kerry Newsome: And like here, like nobody looks sideways at you. Kelley McCarthy: No, it was a couple of Westerners might have looked, because I think that was out of curiosity, so Westerners would have a look. Kerry Newsome: I think they actually wanted to sit down and go, Kelley McCarthy: What did you have done? Yeah, yeah, but the Vietnamese, it was nobody really looked at me. No, no. So, I wasn't really getting sympathy from anyone because nobody really cared. Kerry Newsome: I was trying to be sympathetic to you, but when you were slurping your noodles up or you were trying to find cake shops because the cakes here are just to die for and they're very soft, so she was able to kind of slip them down her tongue because you're not going to, you know, jump into a steak. Definitely not. Kelley McCarthy: And here I am at day 13 and I think chewing a steak would still be a little bit of a task. Because you've got to remember you've got, if you've had the neck lift or the liposuction, you've got the skin pulled back right up behind your ears. And also when they pull up, they're pulling up into the back of sort of your temple area. So if you're chewing, that's all stretching and moving. for it so just keep that in mind as well really consider your foods and your soft food choices and I'll be totally honest with you everybody the probably the most frustrating thing out of all was the actual is the actual bandage so by day 10 when your stitches come off come out you actually only have to wear that at night time so you have the day times free of it but it's the It's just that pressure of the bandage. It's a bit Hannibal looking. Yeah, it sort of straps around your neck. Then it comes up over your ears and straps on the top of your head. And then you pull another one tight back behind your head. So it's just that restrictive feeling. And if you're a side sleeper, no fun at all because your stitches are behind your ears. So it's adjusting to that sort of elevated sleeping in bed against your back. If you can meditate, people, that was what I would suggest. Kerry Newsome: Obviously, it's designed to compress and try and do its best job to minimize the swelling. And bruising. And the bruising, yes. So, you know, that's the role. I mean, the first few days you did have to wear it like all the time. But then, you know, as the days went on and the healing improved, you know, you could take it off for a few hours and that kind of has increased as time has gone on. So, you know, we're sitting here, I'm talking to you and you don't have it on. And, you know, I don't know how much you're going to wear it back when you get home. But, you know, until it finally heals, you've got a little bit of bruising still around under your neck and that. But like if you looked at Kelley when she fully is made up and you're going to see some photos with the show notes, go to the website, whataboutvietnam.com. you know, where we'll feature those photos. So you can get a full feel for, you know, beginning to end at how this looked. I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about the days then, like some people get very nervous about getting stitches out and we were a little bit nervous about that. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, I was a little bit anxious about it because you've got probably a lot I reckon a couple of hundred stitches. So they especially if you're having a neck lift as well, because you're not just having your face pulled, you're actually having the neck lift. So it pulls back behind your hairline. So I was a little bit anxious about that. But I'll be totally honest with you. When I went there, I laid there very calmly. You just feel the little Cut the little pop of the stitch where they go to cut it so that they can then pull it out. But because you're still Quite numb in that area and you will be for a couple of months a little bit numb in that area You really don't feel it so anyone that's quite nervous about any of this stitches coming out and Don't be. It was quite an easy process. If you say, you know, ouch or anything like that, they're like, sorry, sorry, sorry. And then they become even gentler. But I had a fabulous nurse who was gentle. She was so meticulous. I was lucky to have her and that's generally what they do too. So from the day I walked into the surgery, which was, and went and did my morning tests at 8.30, she was with me till I left 8.30 the next morning. So when my woke up or was counting down on the first few hours of surgery, when my four-hour pain meds were due and I'd push my buzzer, she was that face I saw each time. So it was nice knowing she'd been with the journey with me and knew where my pain levels were at, where I'd probably be at, whereas there wasn't any handovers with nurses every time. So that was another really nice little bonus with it too. Kerry Newsome: And, you know, when we got in the car, when you were coming back to the hotel, you know, you had in your bag all of your medications, all your creams, etc. So, you know, Even I didn't have to go and get very much stuff at that time to add to that. We did get a little bit of extra pain relief medication just to balance it out a bit. But that was, you know, Kelley's very knowledgeable in this area. She knows her own body well enough. She knows how she can process these kind of medications. know, she's a smart cookie. So she kind of knew, no, I need this and I need that and blah, blah, blah. So we were able to do that. But as the days have gone, that's included, you know, creams and antibiotics and things like that. And I might add, it never stopped her doing, like we have, We always have a great time when we come to Vietnam, and in particular, Saigon. Saigon has got so much to do. So, when we get here, we're trying new places, we're going to markets, we're shopping. She's got the best set of fingernails. I'll put those pictures in the show notes as well, and we'll give you some links to some fantastic restaurants that we discovered, one French one in particular, which turned out to be a Michelin star. So, you know, I guess what I'm trying to impress here is that you don't have to feel like, you know, you're going to endure this and it's the holy grail of, you know, morbidity to get through this process. You, you know, you are going to be able to you know, in a pretty short amount of time, you know, experience the city, enjoy some of its spoils and take it all in to make it a kind of holiday. Kelley McCarthy: Would you agree? Definitely. Definitely you could do. And that's one thing I would really recommend is if you're going to come and do this, add on a few extra days, speak to Kerry, get her to do a trip plan for you to see some exciting places or you know, like you might be able to take a quick trip north in a plane. Keeping in mind, you know, furthest destination being Hanoi is only a couple of hours in a flight. So if you want to go and do those beaches or you want to go off to an island or something like that, you're only, you know, an hour's flight, really, or an hour and 20 minutes flight from anything. So unless you're heading to the north. So, yeah, jump on board and even speak to Kerry about the trip planning and what else she can accommodate and make a real holiday of it, because By day three I had literally pretty much given up and at that stage I was on Panadol and Ibuprofen was the way that I was sort of medicating for it but by day three I lunchtime was the last pain meds I had. There might have been a couple of nights if I couldn't rest, I might have taken a couple of soluble Panadols just to sort of put my mind at ease and try and close my eyes and rest a little bit because, but that was more, that was not a pain, that was more about sleeping in a position I'm not used to sleeping in. So definitely can make this a holiday as well as your treatment. Kerry Newsome: And that's kind of where the marriage comes from, I guess, with What About Vietnam and us going into this area. We've just created our own Facebook group page called Facelifts and Dental Vietnam. So we would love you to jump on the Facebook group, ask questions. Now, in this, I want to be really clear about something. We're not saying that all of Vietnam has got this down pat. We're not putting hand on heart and saying every institution or organization is out there providing these services and has all these good stories to tell. We're sharing with you our experiences and our clients' experiences and the patients that we know that have gone through the hospital, for whether it's plastic surgery, cosmetic surgery, dental surgery, etc. But probably more so as Westerners. Because, you know, you, my audience, are mostly Westerners, curious about Vietnam, coming to Vietnam to experience Vietnam. for different things. This is just another thing that we think, you know, if you wanted this kind of thing back in your own country and just couldn't see yourself being able to afford it, but would be, you know, keen to get some more information, you're now going to have access to Kelley and I to speak about this, to help you through the process, to work with the worldwide hospital team. You know, they're really standing beside us in this process to deal with this. And, you know, just, you know, sometimes it's those little nuances, you know, in interpreting things, you know, and we've had a few giggles along the way where, you know, they've looked at us with crazy eyes when we've tried to make or express something that, you know, we said we don't want the cats in our eyes or we don't want, you know, to look like deer in headlights. They don't really know what that means. So, you know, it's making sure that we're not speaking with colloquialisms and, you know, we're making it very clear about what we want so that they can understand. So, you know, I'm just saying that you have access to that. Kelley, I'm mindful of time. I'm just, you know, wanting to Maybe ask if you've got any last words of advice for people, you know, in thinking about this, doing this, do's don'ts. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, I think do your research. Make the choice for you and really block out everyone else's advice of why you're going overseas. Why would you do this overseas? Oh, my goodness. You only ever hear the horror stories like in anything. You only ever hear the negative. You don't very often hear the positives because people just assume things move along nicely. So my experience has been really good. And I would highly recommend it to anybody. I'm going to go home feeling fantastic. There's still, like I said, there'll be still swelling and that will go on for a little bit longer. But all in all, I know there's going to be an end in sight with that and it's going to look great. But make the choices for yourself. Don't listen to outside advice. Kerry Newsome: We were lucky enough to be here and we kind of timed it as well, to be here with another client of ours who had some dental work. You might want to speak to that because that was a great story. Kelley McCarthy: So I worked with an Australian lady. She'd had a lot of personal sadness. She was just all round, unfortunately, a sad lady due to her circumstances. Had 20 teeth left in her mouth that were all rotten. and falling out. The pricing in our country was so far outside of her reach, it was something she couldn't do, so she was really saddened by it all. did a lot of liaising with her and the hospital. We got her a quotation. She jumped on board and has had it done. I was lucky enough to catch up with her here in Vietnam at that stage. And then she will return in six months time to have the actual final porcelain done. But basically, She came over for 14 days and that was just for stitches and everything like that. But by about the fifth day, she walked out of that hospital after massive surgery and based full maxillofacial rebuild of her jawlines. And she walked out with temporary teeth that are giving her a smile. And I caught up with her. And that woman was a different person. She was laughing. She was joking. She had a slinky little dress on. She had her hair down. She looked a million bucks. And she, to see that transformation of firstly meeting her back in Australia. to now was what made it feel worthwhile and why I really want to recommend and share these experiences with people so there's other people out there that can have this transformation and change their lives for the better. Kerry Newsome: Yeah and you know it was probably the combination of the experience with that lady and yourself was kind of the two ticks in the boxes that we just went no. Like this is transformational. People get to change their lives, their well-being and I was talking to another woman just the other day and she was saying in some countries you know these kind of surgeries are part of know, your health insurance, you know, to make sure that your mental health is also aligned to how you look and feel about yourself. And this woman, like, I think the staff said that she was crying tears of happiness or Kelley McCarthy : She was crying and they were panicking that they'd done something wrong. And her daughter was her support person. And her daughter said, no, no, no, these are tears of happiness. And then they all were very happy to see that. But it was night and day, the transformation for her. Just amazing. Kerry Newsome: And it was just great to be a part of that. And we certainly want to open the doors for you to send us your inquiries. Just go to the website whataboutvietnam.com. You can reach out to myself or Kelley. All of the information is there. So yeah, Kel, you've been a real trooper and I'm thrilled that you got what you wanted as well. Kelley McCarthy: Yes. Thank you. Kerry Newsome: Kelley, thank you for being on the show. Everyone, if you have any questions, please feel free to reach out to us. Whilst there is English-speaking administration staff to handle queries at Worldwide, we are kind of sitting in the role as introduction agency to the hospital. Clients that come through What About Vietnam we feel are going to get that extra attention and we will do everything we can in our power to ensure your needs and wants and requests are heard. And obviously, if you need any help in the area of trip planning and want to add in some extra time to make a holiday of it. So, other than that, you might like to join the Facebook group, Facelifts and Dental Vietnam. We'd love to get your inquiries and fill those for you to make sure you have all the information you need to make a wise decision. All the best and thank you for listening.

S5- E11 - Out and About in Hồ Tràm Vietnam S5- E11 - Out and About in Hồ Tràm Vietnam Episode 11 S5- E11 - Out and About in Hồ Tràm Vietnam 00:00 / 17:46 The “Out & About in Vietnam” series continues with Kelley McCarthy and I deciding to go in search of a beach escape from Saigon for chilling out and pure relaxation. In this latest instalment we're exploring a different kind of vacation experience—one where the hotel itself is the main destination. It's been an idea of mine for a while to explore this kind of getaway, focusing on a pure relaxation destination within close reach of Saigon. Our destination is Hồ Tràm, located about 125 kilometres from Saigon. Just a 2-hour shuttle bus trip away. Our home away from home for this trip is the stunning Melia Ho Tram Beach Resort. ( Please note this is an unpaid review) While Hồ Tràm is known for its golf course, namely The Bluffs Ho Tram, Kelley and I are here to indulge in the luxuries of a resort vacation. We're faced with the delightful dilemma of choosing between lounging by the infinity pool overlooking the beach, pampering ourselves with day spa treatments, or simply enjoying cocktails by the shore. Throughout the episode, we highlight the romantic ambiance of the resort, perfect for couples seeking a getaway or even a picturesque spot for a proposal. From intimate dining experiences to leisurely walks on the beach, the Melia Ho Tram offers a serene setting for quality time together. But we don't forget about families either. We discuss the amenities available for kids, including the kids' club, and how the resort's accessibility features make it suitable for all guests, including those with mobility impairments. One of the standout features we touch upon is the affordability of the resort, especially when opting for mid-week packages that include meals. By choosing a half-board package, guests can enjoy breakfast and dinner at the resort, making it a cost-effective yet luxurious experience. In essence, this episode showcases the beauty of a vacation where the focus is solely on relaxation and unwinding, without the need for additional excursions or activities. So, grab your favorite drink and join us as we escape to Ho Tram.

 [00:06:29] The importance of relaxation. [00:09:32] The best day spa experience. [00:14:37] Affordable dining options and packages [00:25:14] Exploring the culture and cuisine.

 Check out a previous show talking with Alexandra Hepworth about other luxury brand stays in Vietnam Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-E22 - 10 things travellers may not know S5-E22 – 10 Things travellers may not know about Vietnam Kerry Newsome : Xin chào and welcome to What About Vietnam. Now today I'm really thrilled and I have to say I'm a little bit nervous. I've got Ian Payton to the show. Ian is the co-founder of We Create Content, a content marketing agency, so a real professional in this field. He's been helping global brands like Bundesliga and Netflix really connect with the Vietnamese audiences through social media. Ian's been living in Vietnam on and off for the past 14 years, though as he admits, no matter how many times he's tried to leave, his love for the country keeps pulling him back. He first landed in Vietnam in 2008 and instantly fell for Hanoi and the breathtaking northern mountains. We can totally relate to that, Ian. He puts it in his own words, from the moment I touched down in the old quarter, I knew this was a place I had to live. Starting out as a journalist, travel writer and magazine editor, Ian eventually launched his own company in 2013. But here's something fun, and it is really fun. He's also a bit of a music sensation. I watched the video, cracked up, thought it was wonderful. He wrote and performed in a viral music video called Ối Giời Ơi, and I've probably pronounced that poorly, but everyone in Vietnam back in 2012 was absolutely singing along. He followed it up with The Charming Beast, a rap song that humorously captures his rollercoaster love affair with Hanoi. I'll put the link in the show notes. I first got to know Ian through his own podcast called You Don't Know Vietnam. You can imagine with a title like that, I was immediately drawn to him. So armed with Ian's history and knowledge of Vietnam, I'm delighted to have him on the show. So Ian, welcome to What About Vietnam. It's great to have you on the show. Ian Paynton: Thanks, Kerry. It's very, very nice to be here. What an honor. Thanks for having me. Kerry Newsome: Look,we got together and kind of mapped out what we thought new travelers were wondering about Vietnam, maybe couldn't get the absolute latest and greatest on some things. There's a lot of content out there, as we've both discussed. But we kind of narrowed it down, I think, to about 10 top things that we think Vietnam travelers, or especially people new to Vietnam, may not know about the country. It's a movable feast, I give you. But do you want to kick us off with what you think maybe the first one is? Ian Paynton: Yeah, well, I think something I always say is that Vietnam is a really, really surprising place. I think a lot of people have the wrong idea about Vietnam. You know, you could say what's the first word that comes to your mind when you think about Vietnam to a lot of the global population, and they're going to say probably a three-letter word. Absolutely. And it's just not that anymore. And also, it's not what you saw in the Top Gear episode in 2008. Kerry Newsome: Absolutely. Ian Paynton: When Jeremy Clarkson quite arrogantly and clumsily travelled from north to south. So I think there's lots to be surprised about when it comes to Vietnam. But I think one of the things that takes most people by surprise, and let's call it our, not number one thing, but the first on our list, It's just that Vietnam is way more than rice paddies, buffaloes, and conical hats. I know that the tourism brand pushes that angle, and they also push the urban dynamism of Vietnam too. But mostly when you think of travel in Vietnam, you think of lush green rice paddies, and buffaloes, and waterfalls, and conical hats poking out from the rice fields. Kerry Newsome: Everywhere you go. Ian Paynton: Everywhere you go. Kerry Newsome: I can totally relate. It's a bit like Australia when they think, you know, you're going to find kangaroos, you know, jumping down the street on the way to the shopping mall. You know, they're just not going to be there. Ian Paynton: Does that not happen? No! Isn't that a… Kerry Newsome: Look, I've killed it for you now. Oh, that's terrible. No, but you're right. We are talking about Vietnam much more than conical hats and rice fields. Ian Paynton:Yeah, and I admit, right, like, I like getting out to the countryside. And also, when I first came to Vietnam, I touched down as you mentioned, in Hanoi. But before that, on the journey from Nội Bài Airport to the Old Quarter, I looked into the mountains of Tam Dao and I could see the rice paddies before it and the conical hats poking out. And I was just like, this is unbelievably beautiful as a place. And so I get it. I get why visitors want to go to the countryside and experience that. But I guess what I'm sort of saying is that travelers shouldn't necessarily be surprised by how energetic and exciting and how much there is to explore in the cities and they shouldn't necessarily rush it either just to get out to the countryside. Kerry Newsome: Absolutely. I think one of the challenges when I'm putting trip plans together for travelers is their eagerness to want to go into these country areas. I think that's because it's such a contrast to living in a developed world. When a Westerner is leaving their home in San Francisco or London and wanting to escape that urbanism, to come to a country, in some places it does feel like time has forgotten it. It is existing as it has done for hundreds of years. So, I'm with you. It's probably where social media has played a role in amping that up. But I agree too, that the cities definitely are worth exploring. But once again, they are fairly layered. And you've got to kind of dig a little bit further below the surface of the stop one, stop two, stop three on the tourist map to really get a feel for those. So, you know, in particular places like Hanoi. Ian Paynton: Oh, yeah. And the cities are hard to work as well, you know. they're chaotic, they're loud, it's an assault on the senses. And you're completely right. Why do I want to go to a bunch of coffee shops or cocktail bars or nice restaurants or museums when I can do that in my home country, London, Singapore, Melbourne, wherever. But those trips in Hanoi or Saigon are going to be a different experience for you. They're going to be different coffee shops. They're going to be different restaurants. You know, obviously Vietnamese food's amazing, which we'll talk about in a moment and different museums. I particularly like just walking around the old quarter and getting lost. Kerry Newsome: Yes. And it happens to me a lot. Ian Paynton:Yeah, I mean, even after living here for so long, there's still alleyways I've not been down. And I love walking through Hanoi's, mainly the old quarter, but anywhere really, and looking at its walls. I'm so attracted to Hanoi and Vietnam's walls. They tell so many stories. I've actually got an Instagram account called Walls of Hanoi, and it's where I take phởtographs of walls, which sounds a bit bonkers, right? Kerry Newsome: Oh, I totally get it. Ian Paynton: They're so textured and charming and soulful and they tell so many stories. And then you've got the typographies and the posters. And so, yeah, I just like walking around, getting lost, taking in everything there is to take in about, let's say, the old quarter. And I think I should add as well that I've spent all my time in the north of Vietnam. So I'm only really talking about northern Vietnam. Kerry Newsome: But like, you know, the same goes, I mean, I travel all over and I've done a lot of travel. I've been to places that Vietnamese say, gosh, I can't believe you went there. I've never been there, never heard of that place. So, it's been a whirlwind discovery for me over the last, you know, 12,14 years. if those walls could talk, you know, what stories would they have to tell about, you know, the history of that place, of that, you know, that dish that they cook, that they are known for, the coffee, you know, the family that run it, you know, all of that kind of gets involved in that. But I think with travelers, always time is not always their friend. So, they are keen on you know, knocking over the major things in the first instance. But I do try wherever I can to encourage people to, you know, build in some time to just muse. Just, you know, walk the old towns, you know, walk the old cities and just keep an open mind. You know, leading into our next point that we came up about probably Vietnam's most well-known dish. So talk to us about that one. Ian Paynton: It's a playful one, really. I hear a lot of foreigners go, oh, can I have a bowl of faux beau, please? Yeah. And I just want to say to them, nobody knows what you're saying. you might as well have gone up to someone and said, can I have a bowl of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, they're just not going to get what you're saying. Yeah. Such is the nuance of the Vietnamese language and the need to get it right. So, you know, I always say that it's not pronounced that way. Um, and I'm not saying that I'm going to get this right either, but I think I'm a bit closer in saying, you know, foe is not foe. It's more like fur. So I think of like fur of an animal. Yes. I do too. yeah and then you like because it's got a question mark above it you hook it round with the tone so it's fur. Often I think people think fur is the noodle soup dish and actually I'm here to say something you might not know is it's actually the rice noodle and can be eaten in many different ways. Kerry Newsome: So talk to us about how many other ways we can eat this and where? Ian Paynton: Well, I mean, fur actually comes in a big square and it's a rice noodle, but before it's been chopped up into noodles, it's just a big square. And this can be used to cut into larger, smaller squares. and roll around beef. So that'd be called phở quán. So phở, but rolled. Yeah. And that's eaten in pretty much one place in Hanoi called Trúc Bạc Island, which is a really cool neighborhood, by the way. I'd recommend anyone coming to Vietnam to check out Trúc Bạc neighborhood. It's An up-and-coming neighborhood. It's got lots of cool restaurants, craft beer joints, and also cocktail bars. But importantly, it's just outside the old quarter. So you still get a vibe of being in the city, but not with the chaos of the old quarter. Have you tried Furquan? Kerry Newsome: No. But it's on my list when I'm back in April. Yeah. For sure. Ian Paynton: Yeah. Well, I'll take you to my favorite Furquan place, if you like. Kerry Newsome: I'm in. I'm in. Count me in. Ian Paynton: There are rumours that that's actually quite a new dish and it was by a foreign chef that invented it. Kerry Newsome: So all he's done is taken the noodle and is it deep fried or is it steamed or? Ian Paynton :No, it's completely fresh. Yeah. So it's fresh phở. Yeah. And inside you've got beef, some of the herbs, the coriander, it's rolled and it comes rolled. There's about 10 of them on a plate and you, dip it into the fish sauce dip. Yeah. Kerry Newsome: So that means the noodle must be quite, is it still quite thick? Because that noodle, it's not like a rice paper roll where the rice paper is quite thin and can, you know, be deep fried or fresh. But in this case, it would be quite a thick noodle, wouldn't it? Yeah. Ian Paynton: Exactly. Yeah. It's thick. It's chewy. It's filling. It's great. I can nail, I can nail about like 20 of those rolls. Kerry Newsome: Oh my god. Okay, so that's one kind. Have you got any more? Ian Paynton :Yeah, so the other way is before it's cut into noodles, is they cut it into tiny little squares, into little pillows, and then they deep fry it. And that's called phở chien phởng, which basically means phở, fried, pillows. Kerry Newsome: Wow. Ian Paynton: Or rooms, I think. And they're little squares, little puffs of fur. And they're so tasty. And they come with beef, vegetables. And again, you dip it in the fish sauce broth. And you usually get that at the same place as you get fur kwan. Kerry Newsome: Right. But inside the pillow, is there anything in it? Or it's just the pillow? Ian Paynton: Just air. Kerry Newsome: Air. Right. So it is all down to fur being the basis of the whole meal. Essentially. Ian Paynton: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And what you do is you take the beef, you take the veggies and the beef comes in this really tasty gravy and you stuff it into the pillow. You grab it with your chopsticks and you dip it in the fish sauce broth, couple of chilies in there and then put it all in your mouth and it's just amazing. Kerry Newsome: God, I'm truly in. I'm truly there. I am totally there. That sounds awesome. Why haven't I had that? My God. Ian Paynton: I don't know. Kerry Newsome: To all my Hanoi listeners and to all those I've ever connected with in Hanoi, this is very remiss of you to not tell me about this. This is crazy. Like, food is just one of those things in Vietnam, isn't it? It is an eternal discovery tour from- well, I mean, because I've been from South to North, I mean, the changes infer alone in taste, like, you know, even between the South and the North. The South is much sweeter. And that's because, you know, access to more herbs and sugar cane and things like that. I think that's kind of the basis if my research and knowledge is anything to go on. But, you know, a little bit different to the North in the sense it's a more plainer variety, more clearer variety, I think, would you say? Ian Paynton :Yeah, I think so. There's definitely difference, isn't there? Yeah, the broth. Between the North and the South. And the middle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, the broth is just amazing. And you're so right. It's a never-ending sort of journey of discovery with Vietnamese food. You know, there's still so many dishes that I've never even heard of, let alone tried. In terms of broth, I just wanted to add a few more on the phở options because you've got the phở a bo, which is phở noodles with beef in a broth, and then you've got phở gà, which is the same but with chicken. My understanding is that actually before the French arrived, it was mainly phở gà, and then the French brought with them cows as a source of protein. My most underrated version of phở is phở chon, which means phở without any broth. And it's a little bit like a pad thai from Thailand. Kerry Newsome: Right. Yes. I have seen that. Yes. Ian Paynton: Yeah, oh, it's just amazing. Kerry Newsome: It is, it is. And because it all gets down to the production and how they make those, that noodle. It's all in the noodle. And I'll ask you about the timing of eating fur. Because I'm of the understanding that mostly the best fur, and Vietnamese normally have fur for breakfast. rather than lunch or dinner as a Westerner kind of thinks it is more you know, relative to have. And I don't know, are you thinking that? Because sometimes in some places, all the fur's gone by 9 a.m. Ian Paynton: Yeah, no, you're right. I think one thing that surprised me when I first got to Vietnam, I think you mentioned in the intro about me landing in the old quarter and being like, I need to live here. I just need to live here. One of the things that surprised me in that very same hour was how it was six or seven in the morning and there were these steaming bowls of beef noodle soup being eaten in the morning. And I was like, for breakfast? Kerry Newsome: Yeah. Ian Paynton: So yes, definitely for breakfast, but also definitely for lunch, definitely for dinner, and definitely at any time of the night after a few beers, perhaps. And I think the different stalls or restaurants open at different times. So one of my favorite places in Hanoi, it's a real experience. So it's in a grandmother's living room. And you go down an alley, and you go up some steps and you go into her living room. And she serves this beef noodle soup and she opens at 4pm. And she serves this beef noodle soup with a clear broth. And it tastes like a beef roast dinner. Kerry Newsome: Wow, that that's big coming from you. Wow. A beef roast dinner, Vietnamese style. Love it. Love it. That should sell well into the UK market. Thank you for that. Ian Paynton: It should indeed. Yeah. Yeah. So to answer your question, all times of day, yes, definitely for breakfast, all times of day. And I think the different restaurants will open at different times. I don't think you usually find one that stays open 24 hours. Kerry Newsome: Correct. And I think, as you say, some of them, depending on, because the broth itself takes such a long time to make, like it spends hours to make. So, I think some are known for getting up very early and then they bring and like make a batch of it and then it's kind of gone by nine o'clock or whatever. And so, for those ones, you probably need to only appeal to the early birds, and then, you know, look around for other places. So, travelers, keep your eye out, ear out, and I'll definitely put some links to the ones that Ian has mentioned, if he's happy to do so. He probably doesn't want 300 million people. turning up at his favourite restaurant. So, moving right along, but staying in the food, culture and weather kind of thinking cap. Let's talk about expectations and managing those in Vietnam. Ian Paynton: Yeah, I think the third thing that I think is surprising for visitors to Vietnam is that it changes drastically as you go from north to south, south to north, to the middle, you know, to the coast, etc. And often I think people might land in Ho Chi Minh City and then have a great time, and then get to Hanoi and be like, oh, this isn't, this is not the same as Ho Chi Minh City. It's not what I enjoyed and get a little bit disappointed that maybe it's not quite as good or the food's not quite as whatever, you know, it might be, although people are a bit different. And I just sort of say, expect the unexpected. Every time you jump on a train or a bus to land somewhere else, expect it to be different. and embrace the change, you know, embrace the variety, because otherwise you're just going to kind of be moaning all the time that it's not quite like the last place. And that's the same with food, people's attitudes, people's accents, the weather, you know, everything changes. So the topography, You've got the mountains in the north, you've got the castes in the north central, you've got caves in the central, beaches, sand dunes, jungle, river deltas. So just expect the unexpected and expect it to change as you go either up or down Vietnam. Kerry Newsome: I could not agree more. I think I use the word stay fluid and really try and move with the changes, not try and do direct comparisons on each stop because they won't marry up. Some people in the lesser-known districts and areas don't speak English at all, while they have just come from a city like Saigon where the hospitality industry is well-known for, you know, speaking English fairly commonly. and the urbanization of Saigon versus going to Munay or you're going to Vung Tau or, you know, these kinds of places. Total different, eco different, food different, people, as you say, attitudinally different. And If you're not willing to adapt with that and try and move with that, you know, sure, you can go from one five-star hotel to another five-star hotel and have that five-star experience and that's all wonderful. But if you want some realism to your experience in Vietnam, why not mix it up a little bit And, you know, of course, everybody wants their luxuries and want to come back to a nice bed and a nice room. It's clean and, and all that sort of thing. But I say, you know, do you want to just a five-star hotel? You may as well stay home. You know, don't, don't come to Vietnam if you, if you say you really want to see Vietnam, if you're not prepared to just go with the flow a little bit. And, and I think, whilst people say they want that, when they get it, as you say, they compare and sometimes they get disappointed. So it is really important to, I think, manage people's expectations about Vietnam right from the get-go. Ian Paynton: Yeah, I agree and I think you articulated that much better than I did. But the fourth point that I wanted to mention, I think is closely linked to that. And I think that is things are done differently in Vietnam and get used to it or have a bad time is what I say. Like I've learned that you can't always force your own ideals or expectations onto the way things are done in Vietnam. So the next place might be The customer service might be slightly different in the next place. You got promised something and it turns out to be a bit different. It's not as it looks in the brochure. The bus is two hours late or whatever it might be. Kerry Newsome: But the Vietnamese are happy it turned up at all. Ian Paynton: Yes.Yeah, yeah. And you mentioned about being more fluid. I think that was a really good way of describing it. Even time, I think, is more fluid in Vietnam. Kerry Newsome: Oh, absolutely. Time is something that they're really not good at. They can say, I'll be there about nine. Well, that could be nine, 9.15, 9.30, whatever. And because we come from westernized worlds where time is like, you've got to be there or you miss out, You don't necessarily miss out in this situation. They'll wait also for you. Ian Paynton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's kind of okay to turn up half an hour late to a meeting or for that bus to be 45 minutes late. And, you know, Vietnam's unpredictable. And I think whether it's down on the streets and the traffic to in the business meetings, Vietnam is completely unpredictable. So we look for predictability and structure. We don't want to feel anxious. So we look for predictability and structure. And we want things to be done in a certain way and on time. if we let everything that we feel disappointed about in Vietnam get on top of us and build up that means we're going to end up losing our heads in the middle of the street or we're going to end up going away from Vietnam going that was a completely crap experience I'd never go back and I'd never recommend it to 10 friends so I would much rather, and I found that I've had a better experience in doing it this way, is people let go of their expectations. They go with the flow a little bit more. And don't take the baggage of all the little experiences that you've had on your trip. Don't take that baggage into every interaction or every experience or every part of your tour because you will end up blowing up. and feeling like you've had a bad time. It's hard to do, and there's a bit of an art to letting go in Vietnam and going with the flow, but I think it's essential. I can't stress that enough, really. Kerry Newsome :And I guess the value that I feel like I bring to you know, my show and obviously the trip planning that I do is that I really try to manage that right from the beginning when I'm putting a plan together to say, okay, if you want to go to Huế in the middle of June, let me assure you, you'd be able to fry an egg on the steps of the Huế Citadel. It'll be that hot. Your children will be sweating themselves to death and just want to be back at the pool at the hotel. You're going to have to manage that situation. Otherwise, you're going to go and hate it because I'm sending you to six and seven pagodas and places, et cetera, where you might just want to have the day free and then late afternoon go and I can arrange a guide to do that when it suits you. Guess what? They'll wait. They'll sit in that car, it's an air-conditioned car, and they will wait for you. And people are staggered that, you know, Vietnamese do it. So, as much as there's some challenges out there to deal with in traveling Vietnam. sometimes pays back in other ways. It mightn't be directly in that circumstance where you're really feeling challenged where, you know, you've gone somewhere and they said they were going to be serving, la, la, la, la, la, and they didn't. They only had this. So, you know, you've got to be thankful for that or whatever. Then they'll say, well, we'll add on a visit to you know, a market stall around the corner. You know, some Westerners think, well, no, I didn't want to see that, I wanted to see this. Well, sorry, on this day, the mother of the place who runs it, blah, blah, blah, she's not well, so she's not opening, so we now have to move to such and such. And that is the kind of go with the flow circumstance or typical of when I think people get annoyed and get disappointed and it kind of didn't match up. And, you know, Bana Hills is probably a classic, you know, that Instagram being totally jam-packed. And we're going to talk a bit more about the role that social media and, you know, the TikTok and, you know, ism of Vietnam has kind of taken over. You know, some people think the Golden Hand is somewhere in Da Nang. And when I tell them, no, it's actually in a theme park at the top of the hill, and you know, it's a five kilometer cable ride, and they go, what the? Are you kidding me? Yeah. And it's about an hour out of Da Nang. So, you know, I feel social media has done a lot for Vietnam, but in some ways it's kind of created this very surreal aspect of Vietnam that isn't true, isn't really, really true. Some of the, you know, the rice paddy fields are not that yellow. they're yellow, but they're not that yellow all the time and every month. You know, those phởtographers that go and take those absolutely magical phởtos have to wait for the exact, you know, couple of weeks where it's as crisp and yellow as that to get that in Sabah. So, You know, it's a challenge, but I'd like to hear, because you're a content creator, I really want to hear your thoughts on this, because we're going to talk about some places that never were on the map before until social media, I think. Ian Paynton: Yeah, I think you made a great point. It'd be really easy to turn up to one of these magical rice paddies that you've seen on Instagram, gold and yellow, and you get there and it's just mud. Kerry Newsome: Yeah. Ian Paynton: And how do you get the shot? How do you get the selfie? You don't. You don't. It's mud. Yeah. Because you've gone at the wrong time. Sorry. So no one's fault. Yeah. It's just the way it is. Yeah. With regards to social media, I mean, it really has changed the way that some attractions are seen in Vietnam. And it's made attractions as well. Some of these things weren't attractions before Instagram and TikTok, like train street, for example. Classic. I've lived in Hanoi on and off for 14 years. And when I first got here, that was just a railway line running through a bunch of houses. Yeah, it was cool, but it wasn't flooded with people doing selfies and TikTok stuff. You know, it was, it was just part of makeup of Hanoi. Kerry Newsome: Vietnamese didn't even know it should be an attraction at that time. I asked people to take me there and they went, I don't know what you're talking about. A train goes through the, there's some bunch of houses. It's not an attraction. It's not. And I went, well, I've got to tell you differently. Ian Paynton: Yeah. Interestingly, when I did that music video that you referenced in the intro, there is a shot of me on trains, but that was because I thought it looked Aesthetically interesting, you know, for the video. You wouldn't be able to do that now because there'd be people all over it, sort of dancing or just taking selfies or whatever it is they do. So I've never actually been to Train Street when a train's going through. Just on Train Street, I think it is a great example of the adaptability and resilience of the Vietnamese people. So to be living in this spot where you've got this train roaring straight past your house and moving all of your things, taking them in every time the train goes by, then once it's gone, moving everything back, you know, not to mention the noise, the pollution of it, the danger perhaps of it as well, but also to, lean into the business aspect of it shows the entrepreneurial spirit of the Vietnamese as well. You know, when when it did become a trend on social media, they were like, All right, we're going to make the most of this. We're going to lean into it. And they did. And they've done a really good job at that. Yeah. So, I can see why it's gone big on social. It's pretty mental seeing this train move inches away from your face. Kerry Newsome: I literally stuck my head out to get this video shot and I was with my girlfriend at the time and she's Vietnamese and she pulled me back and I've got a video of her screaming, And, you know, I'd obviously stuck my neck out. So, I'd hate to think about, and you'd probably never hear about any accidents that have happened. So, I have been there several times. And over the years, and we're probably going back to about maybe 2000, 10 maybe, around that kind of era, where it was just starting to get some notoriety about its unusualness, if there's a word, that a train travelling so close to you know, people's homes. No barriers, no guards, no, you know, protectiveness for anyone around it while it goes through. The main one, I think, is at about three o'clock. Most people head for that one. And, you know, just that that is still happening in today's world when, you know, even your home swimming pool is guarded better than this train track, as far as, you know, gates and, you know, ability. It's purely open. And they, you know, they just moved the bikes out of the road, the tables and chairs get moved inside and blah, blah, blah, blah. So, you're right. The Vietnamese have leant into it. They've built businesses around it. And it really has gone big. Is it good? Is it bad? Is it worth it? I don't know. Ian Paynton :Yeah, I mean, it's, quite frankly, it probably wouldn't be allowed to exist in most countries. And it would take an accident to just close the whole thing down. And I vaguely remember there being an accident. They did close it for a while. Yeah, there was a lot more regulation and rules about what you could and couldn't do. But it's still going, it's still buzzing and, you know, people seem to enjoy it. The other tourist attraction that became big on social media was Hà Giang Province. Now, we never used to call that the Hà Giang Loop. It was just Hà Giang Province. And I remember When I first went in 2010, and I'm not meaning to be that guy here, by the way. I know I sound like that guy. Some guy goes to me, do you want to come on a motorbike trip this weekend? I said, where are we going? He was like, oh, a place called Hezang. And I was like, what's there? And he was like, I can't really put it into words. Phởtographs, you know, don't really do it justice and there aren't many, but you've just got to trust that it's worth the nine hour bus and the three, four day bike ride. Okay, let's do it. And we go up to Hà Giang and just- Flew you away. Absolutely, absolutely mind blown. You don't see another foreigner the whole time. And it kind of feels like that scene in the beach where Leonardo DiCaprio gets given a map. and you're letting on this secret, like maybe Vietnam or Southeast Asia's best kept secret. And you're going around these mountains, and these mountains change every 45, 50 minutes to an hour. They just change, you know, the way they look. The landscape changes. One minute you're in a pine forest, then you're in this like moon-like, rocky kind of terrain, like up in Dong Van, and then you're back down in a valley, and then there's rice fields and corn fields, and the Hmong people are kind of looking at you as if to say, what are you even doing here? Yeah, yeah, you lost. And it just felt so exhilarating. Ha Zhang became really, really big in maybe 2016, 2017. And it kind of got called the Ha Zhang loop. And there's t shirts saying I survived the hazang loom. And it's called a loop because it's about three or 400 k where you start in one place, you go around and finish in the other in exactly the same place. It's a long trip. It's a long trip. I've actually been there. I think my friends take the mickey out of me for continuing to say this, but I've been there 17 times. And it gets more magical every single time. Kerry Newsome: Wow. When was the last time you went, Ian? Ian Paynton: About a year and a half ago. Kerry Newsome: Wow. And how would you describe it now, like a year ago, to back your first time? Because I've heard there's even traffic jams now as you go around. It's so busy at busy times. Ian Paynton: Yeah. Kerry Newsome: So, tell me a bit about that because I really would like to cover that off. Ian Paynton : So one thing that I did was I saw this big tour group of motorbikes going. There's like 25, 30 motorbikes. And when we used to go, we always used to go in a smaller group as possible. So we could not stick out like a sore thumb. We wanted to be a little bit inconspicuous with it. Anyway, these tour groups are in groups of 15, 20, 25 bikes. And they're going, oh, you need to come with me because there's a police checkpoint and you'll get fined. And I kind of said, you go that way, I'll go that way. And I didn't want to go through this checkpoint with 15 other bikes because I was sure that a few of them would get picked off and fined. So I always go anti-clockwise rather than clockwise. Yeah, so I'm not really ever kind of in a pack, but I might see packs go past me. And looking past things like There's this waterfall that we used to go to and there'd be no one there. And last time I went, there was probably about 50 backpackers there all with a beer in hand and some dance music being played by some DJs. It was just, it was just such a surprise to me and a bit disappointing. But getting past all of that, Hà Giang is still absolutely beautiful and it still blew my mind and it's still worth going. I didn't experience any traffic jams and definitely there's a lot more foreigners around but it doesn't change how magical the place is. Kerry Newsome: That's good to hear. Ian Paynton: I'm not sure how long that will remain the case, because if there is traffic jams and you're having an experience where it just feels like an overcrowded sort of honeypot, then maybe it would change a little bit. But we're not quite there yet, but I don't think it's got long before. And I have kind of said, I don't think I'll go back that many more times. Kerry Newsome: And I think it has changed up. There's been some new accommodations built in the region. So, it's definitely accommodating more people and a diverse range of people. I think it was definitely appealing to a younger audience to begin with, but then more Bike riders of different levels have come in. But as you say, when you've got those big packs and you've got those big groups, and then you're trying to traverse that same area, you're getting stuck kind of behind them. And yeah, so it is changing a little bit, I think, but I hope it doesn't lose its magic. Ian Paynton :Yeah, me too. And just the other thing is that because of the, increased amounts of tourism, they are redoing all the roads. So sometimes if you're on a big motorbike, you can be driving for two or three hours in just like rocky gravel or mud. And that's not ideal. Other people choose to go up in vans or cars, which is probably a bit safer. Hà Giang is all about feeling it and breathing it in, you know. doing it from inside a car isn't going to be the same. So the key thing there is how is it going to get developed and managed in a way that's responsible and sustainable? And I think that takes us on to point six. Kerry Newsome: Tourism attractions, yeah. Ian Paynton:Yeah, and the sixth thing that I think people don't know about Vietnam is that it's actually sitting on the planet's next big tourism attraction in Sun Dung Cave. This is essentially like discovering the Grand Canyon. I think about 16 years ago, Vietnamese farmer in Phởng Nga stumbled on this hole in the wall, went inside and found the world's largest cave. Then a bunch of British explorers came and sort of examined the cave. Kerry Newsome: I actually interviewed one of the guys in that group. Howard Limbert. Ian Paynton: Oh really? Kerry Newsome :Yeah, lovely, lovely guy. And he was one of the nine that discovered the cave and still currently manages the safety and tells all sorts of stories. Great episode with him. Just during, I did during COVID. talking about Son Doong, and it is, as you say, it is like discovering the Grand Canyon, and that size and magnitude takes, you know, four full days to cover it. It's higher than Big Ben, it's It's one of the most interesting episodes I did because he just had all this knowledge to pour out about the cave and how people had kind of compared it to, you know, climbing Mount Everest and other, you know, really tandem out major experiences and said this one just outclassed all of those. They just, yeah. My husband actually, just in April last year, did the Tulen Cave, which is a four-day trip inside and outside in the jungle, etc. So, I've had a fair bit to do with that region and Phong Nha to know about that. But you're right, it is It's gonna have some challenges, and I'm happy for you to talk about those regarding sustainability, but Oxalis, who manage it, and who have got the contract to do so, as I understand, are meticulous about how they are trying to manage that gem, that jewel that Vietnam is holding there, to ensure that it does have that eco-sustainability. Ian Paynton: Yeah, you're right. Exalus are doing a fantastic job. Kerry Newsome: And they have to. They're employed to do so. Ian Paynton :There were talks a while back about putting a cable car through the cave, you know, and there was this Save Sơn Đoòng campaign. And it seems like the authorities actually listened and said, OK, we're going to put this on ice. But from what I understand from watching a documentary called Crack in the Wall, which I really recommend to watch if you can get your hands on it, is that discussions are opening up again in 2030 about how they're going to let as many people experience this cave while being responsible and hopefully sustainable with it. How do we make money out of it as a country, as a tourism board, as a local population, while not just absolutely destroying it? So watch this space there. Let's see how it goes. But yeah, just to have this cave in Vietnam, I think is just such a blessing. And it's something that I think would surprise a lot of people that there's this, the world's biggest cave is in Vietnam. Kerry Newsome :To me, it's is another one of those gems, a little bit off the beaten track, that now is becoming on the track. So, a little bit like Hà Giang, you know, was nobody ever heard of, it kind of bloomed. And then, you know, places like Fong Na, are now rising as well because of Sơn Đoòng. And they ploughed a lot of money into pushing it. Like if you go to any tourism event that talks about Vietnam, it is all about Sơn Đoòng. Sơn Đoòng features in those videos. Ian Paynton: Last time I was down in that region, one of the guides was saying that there's a very, very good chance that there's another crack in the wall somewhere with maybe even a bigger cave. Kerry Newsome: Wow. Oh, God. Really? Ian Paynton: Yeah, yeah. It's quite exciting. Kerry Newsome: I think your Instagram page for walls could get even… take us into something that never gets talked about in my space on this program. Music. Ian Paynton: Yeah, so it's more like music festivals, I think, is something that's surprising about Vietnam. Music generally has been kicking off, you know, there's loads of new young pop artists, rap artists, Vietnamese raps really been having a moment for the last seven or eight years. So the local music scene is vibrant and worth checking out. I'm actually putting a playlist together which I could share with your audiences of Vietnamese music. Fantastic, please do. mainly urban music. But the music festival scene is growing as well, which I think is quite interesting. So talking about caves, there's actually a cave rave once a year by the nightclub here called Savage. They have a festival called Equation and they hold it inside a cave in Mai Chau. Kerry Newsome: Wow. Ian Paynton: I've never been, but for anyone that's listening that would like a bit of an all-night adventure listening to techno music inside a cave, then… Wow. Yeah, it's pretty interesting. Again, I'm not… There are questions to be asked around, should we be doing this inside a cave, I guess, but I've not been. Kerry Newsome: Do you know when it's on? Ian Paynton: Do they hold it? It was on towards the end of last year, so… I want to say in autumn each year. Kerry Newsome: So around about November. Ian Paynton: And then there's Studio Adventure, which is another festival that's also dance music, but it's a little bit more bass heavy. This happens once or twice a year, and it always happens on New Year's Eve, usually in Fuquok. and so studio adventures worth looking out for. There's this thing called the Rektor, which is a collective that travels up and down Vietnam, usually in a minibus, touring different venues throughout the country. Yeah, it's really good. And it's a whole mixture of genres, but mostly live musicians, artists and performers rather than electronic DJs. And there's also reggae festivals in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam Music Week, and lots of EDM parties as well, which could be checked out. And that's, I think, something a little bit more what the young Vietnamese would be attending. These big festivals of thousands and thousands of people, EDM parties. I've not been to those either. Kerry Newsome: No, I probably wouldn't go. Ian Paynton: They're definitely happening. Kerry Newsome: Where do we go to find music festivals, Ian? Ian Paynton: Yeah, you're right. It's not very well documented. And it's one of those things where you kind of have to be on the ground and in the know to know that it's going on, but that doesn't help visitors. Kerry Newsome: Correct. So, you know, what do I tell people? I mean, I happen to, you know, know a lot of people now as locals and and expats, etc. So, they are my people on the ground. So, they'll say, oh, look, you know, this bar's got so-and-so playing, you know, go here, blah, blah, blah. And that's the only way I find places, literally through word of mouth. So, yeah, I wish we could head somewhere. Maybe that's something for, you know, we create content agency to work on in the future. Ian Paynton: yeah there are these things do get covered in like regional publications like what's on publications um you know whether it's resident advisor or or you know things like this but but yeah there's not one single publication or space in vietnam where you can find out where all this is happening i would get on the ground and ask around um groups on Facebook, the communities on Facebook, join them, put a post saying, look, I'm coming to Vietnam during this time. Does anyone know of any music festivals that are going on? And then all the people in that group who usually live in Vietnam and are in the know will share links and things like that. I think that's the best bet. I agree. Kerry Newsome: So if we move on to other forms of connection, do you want to cover number eight? I'm leaving this one all to you. Ian Paynton: yeah I mean the eighth thing that you might be surprised about in Vietnam is that Tinder might get you into trouble here so if you're here you're you're a single, it's usually the guys I think that fall victim to this. If you're a single guy and you're swiping left and right in the city, you might match with someone and they will say, oh, I'm in the old quarter, meet me at this bar. And usually what they'll do is they'll invite you to a bar and actually they'll be working for the bar and they'll kind of entertain you and talk to you and But really, they'll be selling you drinks and making sure that you drink and probably get in the commission. There's no date there. And there's certainly not going to be any love, I should imagine. Kerry Newsome: Not without a bill. Ian Paynton: Not without a bill. And this hasn't happened to me. I mean, I've been I've engaged and, and with, you know, my fiance for 10 years. So this isn't something I've experienced firsthand, but it's something that I hear a lot of people talking about right now is if there's no flexibility in the venue to meet and it happens to be in the old quarter, it's probably a scam. Kerry Newsome: Right. Good one to know. And you know, you're right when, you know, you are coming to a new country and you want to use that platform to meet up with people. Totally understandable. But, you know, how would you know to pick that kind of thing up, you know, firsthand? So, good point. Let's like get into, I love this one, number nine. I love number nine, pronouns in Vietnam. Let's go. Ian Paynton: Well, from what I understand is there aren't really any. Kerry Newsome: Correct. Ian Paynton: There's no I and you. No. What it means is that every time you address someone in Vietnamese, it's this hierarchical dance. I have to know how old you are in relation to me in order to address you correctly. So are you a younger person? Are you a friend on the same level? Are you an older sister, an older brother, auntie, uncle, grandmother, grandfather, or a super respected person? And based on all of those things, I will respond to you in a different way with different words in Vietnamese. So it's really complicated and you can really get yourself in hot water. Kerry Newsome: I only have one savior in this one for when you want to summon a waiter. So, because I'm old, most waiters are younger than me. So, I can, I've been told, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been told I can most commonly say emoy to call out to the waitress as in a sort of short for excuse me. So, I can say emoy and the waiter will come to me. But that's only on the basis that that person is younger. than me, that I can kind of get away with that. So because I'm old, there's some advantages. It's got some power there. Yeah. Ian Paynton: So I do get what you're saying, but… A slight complicating factor as well is that if it's in a service environment, if someone is serving you, then usually you would call them M, like younger person, even if they look the same age. I really struggled to do that. I struggled to M someone just because they're working as a waiter and I'm a guest. Kerry Newsome: I can't do that either. Yes, exactly. Ian Paynton: Only if they were clearly younger than me can I call them M. Otherwise, I tend to go with Ban, which is friend, or I will play it safe and go older brother or older sister. However, if let's say you say older sister to a Vietnamese woman who is younger than you, she's not going to like it. And if you say M, i.e. younger person to a Vietnamese woman who's older than you, she's probably not going to like that, although she might be somewhat flattered. You think she's younger. Kerry Newsome :Yes. Yeah. But I, I haven't learned those nuances well enough to do that differentiation on the spot and quick enough when I just want to order food or drink or whatever. So I went with the excuse me option, which was I hope still respectful to that service person. I don't get any frowns. They seem happy to come to me when I do it. But then, as you say, if you know a little bit of Vietnamese, they may suspect that you know a lot more. And clearly I don't, so I can get into bother with then they wanting to have a chat with me. And my only out is like, trời ơi! And I'm trying to say to them, oh my God, no, I don't know anything else. That's it, you know? But yeah. Ian Paynton: One thing I would say is that, Yeah. If you nail hello or the pronouns in inverted commas correctly, people are going to think that you speak Vietnamese really well and have a full conversation with you. And I remember speaking to this one guy called Phuc Ma, who is a foreigner who speaks Vietnamese really, really well on my podcast. And he was saying that, like, he could gauge how well he was doing in Vietnamese by how long he could have a conversation for in a taxi. So when he first got here, it would last a few seconds. You'd get answered the same old questions, give the same old answers. And then as he learned more and more, he could do the whole journey speaking to the taxi driver. Kerry Newsome: That is definitely an achievement. Definitely. Ian Paynton: Yeah. Kerry Newsome: Now, because you are definitely a lover of the Northern region, probably good for our number 10, and to finish on number 10, maybe you might want to speak to one of the aspects of the people of the North that reside in the Northern regions, which I'm a big fan of too. Ian Paynton: Yeah, I think my 10th thing that people might not know about Vietnam is that there are actually 54 ethnic groups here. 85% of the population is made up of King people, who are usually found in urban areas, coastal plains, river deltas. But up in the north, but up in the northern mountains, you also have the Hamang, the Zao people and the Thais. And I think it's just like, a really great experience to drive through the mountains and meet these different people and see how they live. And they all live quite differently from each other. So the Hamang people live highest up. You'll find the Hamang people in Hà Giang province, for example. But in the north, yeah, Mukangchai. But you'll find them in the highest altitudes, which often means that their ability to farm is limited because the land space is lower. So they might just have little small plantations of corn instead of rice. And their houses look different to, let's say, the Zhao or the Teis who live next to the river and in valleys, who will have their houses on stilts. So they dress different, they speak with unique languages, their houses and architecture is different. It's just so amazing to travel through the mountains and meet these different people and see how they live. Ethnic groups, the diverse ethnic groups aren't only in the North, they're also in the Central Highlands and in the Mekong Delta in the South as well. Khmer Krom people in the Mekong Delta, who I think originated more from Cambodia, for example, and the Jirai and Banar people in the Central Highlands, and they've got this beautiful communal house with a huge, huge thatched roof, which is really worth a visit in the areas like Kontum and Plaiku. So it's just this really diverse tapestry of life and so exciting to explore it on your journey up and down Vietnam. And I think if we were to come back to our first point about the cities, if you land in Hanoi, for example, And we talk about not rushing it before going out into the mountains. I would really, really recommend visiting what I think is Vietnam's best museum, and that's the Museum of Ethnology. That's where you can learn about Vietnam's ethnic groups, their architecture, their dress, their customs and behaviors. And it's a beautiful museum. So do that in the city and then go out to the countryside. And then you'll know exactly. Kerry Newsome :Yeah,I think people need to get context around the minority groups. They really need to understand how they fit into the world of Vietnam, the role that they have played over the centuries. And I think what is intrinsically magical about these people is that they, are allowed to live on their own lands, mostly, and farm as they wish and live as they wish in these areas. And, you know, I might say to people to just be careful when you're going to these places that you go with you know, the appropriate guide or the person because you're kind of trampling into their world as they have preserved their world and their families and the way they bring them up and school them and all. And I realize progress, you can't stop progress. But, you know, I'm just forever trying to instill in people the respect angle. when you are going to these places. I met a guy named, a French phởtographer named Rohan. You might have heard of him. He has the museum in Hanoi, in Hội An. And what he's done in that museum, I don't know whether you've had a chance to visit it, but it is amazing because he has phởtographed the 54, and because he was able to do it in such a respectful way, they have donated to him some of their traditional dress. So, on live models, as gifts to him in this museum, which is free to visit I might add, you can actually physically see the models dressed in full traditional dress of those 54. minority groups. So once again, it's an education factor that if you can just get a glimpse into this part of Vietnam, it is worth, otherwise you kind of go out there and you're just sort of driving and you've got a guide, maybe who's telling you some of this stuff, but you don't really get it. You haven't really kind of understood the relevance of these people and just how interesting they are and their crafts and things like that. I'm fascinated by that area, those areas. Ian Paynton :Oh, me too. I completely agree. And actually, I, I, whenever I go to Hà Giang, I buy one of the Hamang baskets, um, which carry all the wood and you've got baby ones, kid ones, and then adult ones. And I've actually, I like making lights out of them for our living room. But I've noticed as I've gone up there to Hà Giang in recent years, they've switched out the wicker baskets for plastic tubs. So I guess they're more resilient. These bright blue and green plastic tubs. So I can see things changing and I get it. you know, you can't, like you said, you can't stop progress. But I hope that their crafts and their cultures aren't lost forever. Kerry Newsome: Me too, me too. I could literally keep on going for ages with you, seriously. But do you want to, is there something you'd like to finish on? Is there something that you think we should add or a question I should have asked or, you know, we have got really 10 great things I think travelers would really benefit from knowing about, but anything you'd like to add before we wrap up? Ian Paynton: I don't think so, Kerry. I think the only thing I would say to sum everything up is, you know, I've been here quite a long time and I still don't know Vietnam, you know. Visitors should just expect the unexpected, expect to be surprised, take it in their stride, be open, fluid, and go away and recommend it to others because we want people coming back. We want people coming through Vietnam to explore the amazing people, food, topography, and different attractions. a bloody good time and recommend it to your friends. Kerry Newsome: I think that's a really good thing. Or maybe can I add, talk to me at WhatAboutVietnam and let me put your trip together from A to Z in all walks, in all areas, happy to do so. I think maybe one thing I would like to, and it just occurred to me as you're finishing up, I think we didn't talk much about the value for money that you get in Vietnam. I think, you know, as a country, as experiences from hotels to food to, you know, a grab car to get anywhere to whatever, you know, it is starting to cost more and, you know, we had to expect that, but I still think it offers great value for money. Would you agree? Ian Paynton: Oh yeah, absolutely. What I love is that you can still have a $1.50 noodle dish on the street or you can have, you know, a $150 French meal at night. And the same is true with hotels and homestays and tours. So yeah, there's a whole spectrum even at the higher end, you know, if you're paying for a higher end experience, it's still going to be great value compared to, let's say, neighboring countries. Absolutely. Kerry Newsome: Thanks so much for coming on and I really, really enjoyed the show and I look forward to staying in touch. Ian Paynton: Me too, Kerry. Thanks for having me and catch up soon.

S4-18 Luxury Brand Travel Experiences Some of the best luxury brand experiences in Vietnam Episode 18 S4-18 Luxury Brand Travel Experiences 00:00 / 1:09:18 I’m thrilled to announce What About Vietnam is now recommended in the Vietnam Lonely Planet Experiences Guide for 22/23 - Thank you for your support. Today the show welcomes my lovely guest Alexandra Hepworth to talk about luxury travel in Vietnam. Alexandra lived in Vietnam for 9 years up to 2020, and worked with some of the big brands such as the Fusion Group; The Vietnam Tourism board, the Caravelle Saigon and the Hyatt Regency in Phnom Penh. She now resides in Bogota, Colombia. Together we take you through some of the big brands you may follow as a luxury traveller. We think you will be pleasantly surprised at the value for money and opulence you can get in some of these hotels and resorts. Alexandra has a good grasp of the scope of luxury experiences available across the country and her descriptions of the hotel resort experiences will have you booking your next flight. Alexandra works for AZA Travel, a bespoke Travel company, specialising in curating “High End” luxury travel. You can contact her direct through AZA. While we wish we could have covered all of the luxury properties and experiences in Vietnam, we had to limit it to Alexandra’s favourites which I think after listening you will agree was worth waiting for.
If you’d like some insights into YOUR favourite brands - This is the show for you!
Email me direct with your feedback - whataboutvietnam@gmail.com Note – Important links for brands mentioned in the Podcast are in the transcripts 1. The Fusion Group 2. Hyatt Regency – Phnom Penh 3. Sofitel Legend Metropole Hanoi 4. The Vietage Train 5. Anantara Hotel Group 6. InterContinental 7. Four Seasons 8. JW Marriott 9. Rosewood Group 10. The Regent 11. Six Senses 12. Meliá 13. Alba Wellness Resort 14. Tia Wellness Resort Contact Alexandra from her details listed here :- https://www.azaluxurytravel.com/ Listeners will receive a 10% discount on trip planning design services provided by Alexandra if you mention this podcast. This discount applies strictly to trip planning design provided by Alexandra. https://alexandrahepworth.com/ Alexandra’s personal blog website @luxurytravelbyalexandra - This is Alexandra’s Instagram - @luxurytravelbyalexandra Kerry’s Book, Pack & Stay – Travel Guide to Vietnam Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S6-E13 How far in advance should I book a trip to Vietnam < Back S6-E13 How far in advance should I book a trip to Vietnam S6-E13 How far in advance should I book a trip to Vietnam 00:00 / 43:13 Series 6 Episode 13 How far in advance should I book a trip to Vietnam? "Kerry, how far in advance should I book my trip to Vietnam?" If I had a penny for every time this question has come up in the last year. I just wish there was a one-size-fits-all answer—but there isn't. Who YOU are as a traveller,... and what type of experiences you want to have, will shape my answer. In this episode, I break down the booking timelines that have the biggest impact on your experience in Vietnam—from budget backpackers and families to luxury travellers and adventure seekers. I flesh out why Vietnam doesn't always follow the same booking patterns as Europe or Japan, and why understanding local travel habits can save you money, queues, stress, and disappointment. Whether you're planning your very first visit or returning to explore more of this extraordinary country, this episode will help you decide when to book, what to prioritise, and how to create a smoother, more enjoyable trip. You’ll discover : Tet (Vietnamese Lunar New Year) travel considerations Vietnam's school holiday periods and peak domestic travel seasons Cruises, wellness retreats and boutique stays that book out early Tips for independent travellers, families and luxury travellers alike A major city by city guide If you're considering a trip to Vietnam and would like a private tour with everything you had on your list, sourced and booked, without the time and headache of research, you can always reach out through the website here to book my services - https://www.whataboutvietnam.com/trip-plan-request-form What About Vietnam – helping you travel deeper, wiser and with greater confidence. Do you have a travel question or wish to give some feedback? You have 90 seconds. Click to read the voicemail recording policy Previous Next

f95cbcc0-460f-45ef-a101-7e7674afa267Unrivaled golfing experiences and locations Greg Norman isn't the only one raving about golf in Vietnam Episode 11 Greg Norman isn't the only one raving about golf in Vietnam 00:00 / 50:30 Vietnam is well known for its magnificent natural beauty, culture, great food and tropical climate. However, it is fast becoming better known to golfers for its unrivaled golfing experiences and locations. Part of that is due to the promotional work of Greg Norman - Vietnam Tourism Ambassador. With Norman’s global presence, vast background in golf, business and experience designing and building some of the top resort golf courses in Vietnam and around the world, he was identified by the Vietnam Ministry as the ideal candidate to help the country capitalize on the influx of international tourists looking to experience first class golf resorts in one of the most unique and visually stunning destinations in the world. Now don't get too excited ! We don't have Greg on the show. Better still, we have Chrissy Hordern, a strong, avid player who is accustom to taking groups all over the world including the US Masters, Ireland, and Europe. You will love the detail she will give you to the courses she has played. Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here