S4-24 Take beautiful photos Part 2 What About Vietnam - S4-23 How to capture Beautiful Photos - in Vietnam or anywhere! - Part 2 [00:00:39] Kerry Newsome: Xin Chao and welcome to what about Vietnam? Today, we're going to be continuing with the series with Thomas Levine. And, I hope you're enjoying it. We've really learned a little bit more about Vietnam. And I think some of the attributes of the country that I guess, make it so exciting for people who love to take pictures and certainly learning with Thomas. Now, how to keep our eye in the right place, and use the camera to its best ability, is really going to make those pics extra special. So today is part 2 of this series. There's actually going to be 3 parts. And I'm going to be talking to, , another guest in part 3 about drone photography. So, I hope you'll stay tuned for part 3 in these photographic series. But today we are back with Thomas Levine. And we're going to be continuing the series with him and all of his extra tips. Let's be joined again with Thomas Levine. Let's just jump right back in where we pick up talking about colour and the importance or the role it plays in our photography. [00:02:09] Thomas Levine: Blue the sky, the water you relate to blue in that way. But it's also a very moody colour. It's relaxing. It's a deep thing. It's moody. It's colours have meanings. So green and blue are usually something that are relaxing to people. So, when they see the ocean, they see the sky, a blue sky. They think, oh, this is nice. And so that kind of gives you an overall feeling for the picture, but you want to, depending on what your subject is, if it's a boat or it gets into space. Space is another element. And like I was talking about the yellow with the red, that's a space thing too. The whole space is yellow except for that person with the red. And so your eye automatically goes because of the space. And it really, whatever that subject you have is the space. It's a smaller space and you want everything to support that. And I'm talking like it's very subjective and when you take a picture too, you think, oh, this is a great picture and you have this memory of this place, but you're not being objective because you know what it's like there. The picture will never be what it's like there. You can come up with a great picture, a piece of art, but when you relate it to what it's like when you were there, it doesn't really work. Okay. And this, that's just the way it is. Maybe the picture's great. And it looks better than a, sometimes the pictures look better than when you were there. But for me your memory is filling in the blank and you show this picture to somebody else and they go what is that? You know what it is,because you were there. But when somebody else sees it, they don't know what it is. So a lot times I'll take a picture of something and I want a piece of. If somebody's got their hands or their shoulder in the picture, I know there's a person there. You don't always have to show the whole person or the whole thing. What if it's a car or whatever. You just have to have an idea. Give them an idea of what it is because when they see that, then you know, they're like, oh, okay. It gets some realism into the picture. Yeah. I like pictures of people in some, in a lot of these. It just takes the element of boring out of it, I think. Because really it's all about people. Especially in Vietnam there's, it's a culture. It's a culture shock for some people here. But and there's a lot of different cultures here because there's a lot of different like when you go in the North Vietnam there's all these different villages and they speak different languages. Yeah. But the clothing is incredible. The colours. And sometimes it's hard to take a bad picture of that. But again, it depends on your lighting too. Lighting is another element of art. I, really think lighting is so important. And that will dictate your colours too. If it's low light, your red's not going to look red, it's not going to look bright red. It changes tones, it changes you. You're green, depends on what time of day it is. Might look real green and might not look green because of the sun. So the thing is, when you're there and you're looking at it with your eye makes these adjustments and you think you know what it looks like. And so that camera is going to be a different story. It's going to see what it's going to see. Correct. [00:06:04] Kerry Newsome: Yeah. And I get overly disappointed about that scenario when you are looking at these Green Mountains and there's, they're just rolling in front of you and you go, oh, this has got to be a great time to take the photo. And yet when you take that photo, that depth of colour is just not there because as you say, the sun in some way has put a film over. So, that real vigorous green is taken away or depleted. But I also take your point about people. I get so crazily mad with my husband when he takes a hundred of these photos in the hills and from all these vantage points. Then he goes to tell and show people when he comes back and goes, oh, we walked around here and. It's just boring. All these photos. Look you could have been in the Highlands of Scotland for all they knew because there's just no differentiation. It doesn't click. It doesn't have relativity. And I think that contrast, that's why your story about the red and the yellow, the conical hat that got the focus. Yeah. The hat is one of the best things to photograph here with people wearing them. It tells a story right there. Because it keeps the sun off of them. It keeps them dry, when it rains, it keeps the water off their face. And actually it's got a breathing element to it too, so you don't get as hot. Whoever came up with that, it must have been centuries ago. I don't know. But it was a great invention. Genius. Absolutely genius. Yeah I think speaking to the contrast. I'm always big in trying to get colours that contrast one another instead of, for one of a better word, same. Same because if you're in too much red and too much red is taking, nothing gets the focal point. But if you've got that red against a blue background you've got the red lanterns of Hoi An against Thu Bon River, you've got that contrast. and light is a lot of it. It's not even just the colours, it's also the dark and the light. So if you have that blue and you got the red blue's kind of darker. So that, that, that's a one way to think about it. Don't think just about the colour. It's also about dark and light, and that's the contrast sometimes. You can have a low contrast image. Because it wasn't. Really sunny or anything like that. But if you got some different colours going on in there and it's contrasty, that's a contrast of colour and that'll if you don't have the light, but you got the colour, sometimes you don't need the light like that, like you really want it to. Okay. [00:09:03] Thomas Levine: But there's a, when you do edit because even if you take a picture on a iPhone or a regular smartphone, You can change the hue on it and that, like the green, you can change it a little bit and it'll turn things more green. But the problem is if you overdo it, turn everything green. So it's just a slight change. And to me, I like green. I like, I want to see it's a like green also has this other thing with plants. The older the leaves, the darker, the green the new part of it is brighter. We like the brighter because it's new for some reason. So that's how I look at it. And like I said, your eye is making these adjustments and you don't notice it. The camera doesn't. So if you can change it when you edit it, Then you're compensating for that camera. So, it's not really changing it to where it's for the sake of change, you're changing it for a reason because you're eye, that's the way you see it. And that's the way I like to make a picture, is the way I see it. And you develop that vision, that's the whole thing is you're developing your vision for the camera to be able to take a picture. And that's really what it's about, is seeing because when you start learning more about photography, you start seeing different, you start seeing the light different, everything turned. You can take a, like a, like I took a picture of a, an orange one time and then, nah, it wasn't the great it wasn't, it's just an orange, it was hanging in Florida, it was hanging down the tree. But the light hit it just perfect. And it changes the entire orange. Because it was a low light, it was it was morning and that contrast with the side light and it had fill from the tree. So it wasn't dark on one side. It was darker, but it wasn't dark. Too dark on one side and it just, the light will make a picture. There's a lot of things you can do with photography, but you have to play with it. Yes, and I think the playing with it is a little bit of a challenge for everyone, because I know when you're traveling you're sometimes on a bit of a timetable and you've got either get back on the bus the bus is leaving or you, you're with a group and you may be with a partner. That's, dare I say, not so patient. In you wanting to take, I can vouch for that permanently, but if you're traveling with somebody who is looking to achieve similar photography of a quality that you want to be able to share later or put on your Instagram account or do whatever. It's, it does make a big difference because you have them to chat with and say are you seeing that? Because you're, it's another set of eyes, isn't it. I was going to talk a little bit about Ninh Binh if you want? [00:12:25] kerry Newsome: Okay. Let's talk about some destinations. Yes. Ninh Binh is beautiful. [00:12:29] Thomas Levine: The biggest problem I had, and it's because I had a problem with my camera, but it made me realize that everybody has this problem if you don't think about it. And it's common sense. But when you get on these tour boats, especially with Tam Coc. They row with their feet, so they have a power to it, and it's right in the beginning when they push, you feel that push. Okay? If you're trying to take a picture and that thing's moving, then you have to have a faster shutter speed, but you also have to be able to time when you have the shutter go off. So the best. It is like a athletic event when somebody's playing tennis and they throw the ball up. You want it where that ball is at the peak and so it's staying in the air before it drops and that's when you want to take a picture. It's the same thing with the rowboat. When they're rowing and you feel that push, get ready to take a picture. Because as soon as he is ready or she is ready to pull the back out of the water, that you have a little pause and that's when you take your picture because it's a lot more stable. And it also comes down too when you go on these boats get in the front if you can. Because that's your best pictures. Okay. There's some yeah, it's, I just, I was thinking about it. It's like I don't think about that stuff because I just do it. But this is travel and not everybody takes pictures like I do. I go crazy with the camera. So you have to be able to. Compensate and you have to be able to come up with a good picture and time it just so it's right. Because if you see somebody in another boat coming towards you, you are moving. They are moving, okay, this comes down to shutter speed. So you want to be able to do it when you're at that pause, but they're still moving. You can't say, Hey, stop your boat. I want to take a picture. That's not going to work. [00:14:35] kerry Newsome: How does, how do you do that on your phone? [00:14:38] Thomas Levine: Most of the time I don't think there's too much of a problem because they're not going that fast. But again, you can get an app that will set the shutter speed for you. You can select a faster shutter speed. Because you want like a, like if you have a regular camera, it's two 50th of a second or if something like that, you want it a little faster and sometimes you don't, maybe you don't want them still. Maybe you want them to show a little motion and not be sharp because that they're moving. It depends on what you want. Okay. So. you have to try it both ways. [00:15:13] Kerry Newsome: And when you've over water, what's your thoughts on reflections? And there's some really great reflective pictures that I've seen also, some you've done. Talk to us a little bit about capturing reflection. [00:15:29] Thomas Levine: Okay I call it highlights because highlights something that's reflective like the water. Your eye is going to go to the white part of the picture, okay? And if you have a highlight and the sun's coming in your eye's going to automatically go to that light, okay? So, highlights are good. But if you have too much highlight, then you're going to have a problem with white going into your lens, and then it'll make it softer picture again, it'll look like you're not focused or something like that. But it's hard to do. Not have a thing to refer it to here. But there's also something called the polarizer. If you have a regular camera and you have, you want to see into the water. If the sun is at a 90 degree angle to the water, you can twist this polarizer and it'll actually take most of the reflection out. So you might turn it dark and into the water, but the thing is, some people turn that thing where it's black. And I like highlights to a certain extent. So I think it's good to have some highlight because it's more natural than if it just goes black and you look into the water. [00:16:44] kerry-newsome_2_02-15-2023_145136: Correct. [00:16:45] Thomas Levine: Because I used to do it the other way too. I used to turn it so far that it would take out all the highlights, but I didn't really understand lighting back then. But you highlighting is a good thing to have in your picture. As long as you control it and it doesn't get into your lens because the light scatters. As soon as the light comes down, if you have a subject, okay, what a colour or a car or something, it's going to either absorb, it's going to absorb light and also reflect light. It depends on whether that's the text, the texture, the colour, that kind of thing. So if you have light coming in to hit that thing, to hit the subject, you are it could really be a great picture or it might not be a good picture. It depends on how you want to show this subject. Is there anything else you want to cover off? For Ninh Binh before we move on to another location. Let me see. Ninh Binh was just a I love Ninh Binh and I would go back in a second if I'm thinking about going back there. But there's a lot of hiking. There's you can take a boat rides into the back country there and there's hiking up that mountain. And you have a great view from up there. It's just a beautiful area and you get up there and you see all the rice patties on one side and the river on the other side. And the rice patties are always interesting to me because you have some of the animals there, their work animals out there. And it just it's an interesting scene. But if you just take a picture of a rice patty, And there's nothing going on. It's boring. You want something going on. And that's why I say with people or animals, that kind of thing. And if they're really way far in the distance, sometimes I don't even take a picture. But it depends. I'm taking a picture for the different reason. If you take some pictures that are boring, that's okay, because this is a memory to you. You're traveling and you want to show what it looks like. It doesn't always have to look like so interested. It doesn't have to, every picture doesn't have to be a great picture. You want some good pictures, but you also want pictures of what it's really okay. That's my view. [00:19:15] Kerry Newsome: I've always felt, the photos that I've taken, that I've loved the most have been when the farmer. Is in the fields. And because it's such backbreaking work that they do, they are bent, over. So sometimes you can get a capture of that. Their process of farming and the hats appearing in the rice patties looking like that. There's not even a body attached to them, that they're just a row of hats because they're bent over. And if you get that contrast right, I've found that interesting and just. It's probably a good segue in to talk about capturing photos with people and maybe speak to us a little bit about getting people's permission, where it's necessary or appropriate and how best to do it versus where it's a little bit freer and easy or, and you can take that. [00:20:21] Thomas Levine: Let me first say that you don't always have to take a picture of the person's face, like you said, if they're working in the field. There's such a thing as body language. Body language is, tells you a lot about what's going on in the scene. Okay? So if they're bent over, they're working okay. That's fine. That's no problem. It's also nice to have a picture of a face. But a lot of these people, they don't like their fixture taken. And a lot of times I'll take a picture, but they won't know it and they'll see me. But when I first starting take to take pictures, I'll actually point the camera in a different direction and I'll keep an eye on what they're doing, and then I might take different pictures, and then one of 'em might be of them that they don't even notice anymore because I'm standing there, I was standing there looking in a different direction. So that's one way. But the view of a lot of people is if they're out in. The open area, it's game is on. You can take a picture. They may not like it. [00:21:22] Kerry Newsome: You can have that option. [00:21:23] Thomas Levine: Yeah. You can have that liberty, but some areas they might have a rule. You can't take pictures, so you have to be careful where you're at. Like in Hoi An, a lot of times they don't like your picture. They don't like it when you, like at the market, they don't like to have their pictures taken. But when I went to some of the other markets and some of the other cities, they loved it. So, it just depends on where you're at. Also like I'll point the camera and they'll see me. And then I'll kinda yes or no, I'm looking at them and they'll tell me whether they want the picture, if it's okay or that, yeah. And sometimes they look at me and then they'll raise their two, two fingers up, that kind of thing.That's okay, but that's what I'm looking for. [00:22:13] Kerry Newsome: But you can do that with sign language. [00:22:15] Thomas Levine: Yeah, then you can point to your camera. You don't have speak [00:22:19] Kerry Newsome: Vietnamese. [00:22:22] Thomas Levine: and I'll point at my lens and they'll say, yeah or no they know what I'm talking about. [00:22:29] kerry-newsome: And I know I've spoken to Etienne Bossot who I think you know, in Hoi An , and he's very much dead against paying people to take their photo. [00:22:38] Thomas Levine: Yeah, I am too. And it gets to be where they pose and I don't really like it when they pose too much. I like to pose them. [00:22:46] Kerry Newsome: No, they think they should. [00:22:48] Thomas Levine: Yeah I want them in their natural. I like casual. You give some great expressions. If they don't know I'm interested in what people are doing. I took a picture of a couple, they didn't know why I was there, and the guy's got his mouth full of food. But he is, and she's enjoying it, and she's looking at him while he is enjoying it. I like something going on in the picture and that's what makes it interesting, yeah, for sure. [00:23:15] Thomas Levine: But yeah, sorry. [00:23:17] Kerry Newsome: Do we want to move on to another place like Dalat. [00:23:21] Thomas Levine: Okay. Dalat is known for, it's very hilly. The architecture is a lot of it's French colonial, so I like to take pictures of some of the buildings and they have that monastery. If you take the cable car. Yeah. And so I took the cable car one time and actually before I took the cable car, they have a overlook. You could take, you could see the whole city. And so you can actually take a landscape picture of the city before you even get on the cable car. And then when you get on the cable car, I like taking pictures through the window. And they have, you can see the treetops, you can see some farming. There's a lot of stuff going on. You could take, I like taking pictures of the cables. Cable cars come in at you because you can take pictures of the people in there and you can see they're looking at you, they're taking pictures or whatever. And then when you get there there's tons of flowers there that you could take pictures of. The monastery Actually I think I went in there, but I didn't take pictures. Maybe they don't allow it. I can't remember. But it's just it's a, it's very interesting. And again, they have markets too in, in Dalat, so they they have the biggest strawberries I've ever seen. [00:24:38] Kerry Newsome: Like they do jams, which is an unusual thing for Vietnam. It's the only place I've actually seen where they preserve the fruits, et cetera, and turn them into these beautiful, tasty jams, but they're. The strawberries were like the size of apples. They were huge and the colour was so rich red getting back to red. But just you, as you say the markets were totally different. And they have another flower called the Everlastings. Did you come across them? [00:25:12] Thomas Levine: I probably did, but I don't know the name. I didn't know the name. [00:25:16] Kerry Newsome: There's actually a flower that never dies. [00:25:18] Thomas Levine: Huh? [00:25:19] Kerry Newsome: And they call them the Everlasting, and they sell them in posies and they can make them ornamental. So even though they're fresh flowers, because they never die, it's freaky. Really freaky. I thought someone was having me on at the time, but then I learned later that it actually is quite true. They call them Everlastings. So, they're these small, very small photos, very small buds. I'll send you a, I'll send you a photo of the ones and you'll go, oh, Kerry, you could have done better if I was there. [00:25:56] Thomas Levine: So as long as I don't have to analyze it, that's fine. [00:25:59] Kerry Newsome: No, don't. No, but they just to prove that they exist. [00:26:03] Thomas Levine: You know what else they have there, which I haven't seen since California is artichokes. They grow artichokes in the lot. They're pricey. But they sure are good. And did you get up into the some of the waterfalls? That's where I had a really interesting experience trying to get that photography right. I have to admit to everyone that I've failed, but those waterfalls are just lovely. The Pongour waterfalls were. [00:26:35] Thomas Levine: And you probably got there during midday, which the light's not the greatest. by the time you travel some of these places, it's not morning anymore. You have to get really early to get some great photos of some areas and people along there traveling, they just don't want to do that, which I don't blame 'em. I had a doctor friend. He was really into photography. He'd go, he'd take this picture and it was okay, and then they'd go back to their hotel and then his wife didn't want to go. He'd get up at four o'clock and he'd go back to the same location and take that picture again. And his pictures were great, but he he went way out of his way to back to the same place to take the picture. And like I said, his wife is not interested in it whatsoever, but he had some really nice. [00:27:21] Kerry Newsome: Yes. [00:27:21] Thomas Levine: going back to a place that possible, but it's it's not convenient. [00:27:27] Kerry Newsome: And interesting do you find in Vietnam with some cities. See, when I think of colour, I think of Dalat and the colour purple. Because around the lake is lots of purple. Do you recall? [00:27:44] Thomas Levine: I recall that, but it's, I guess it's because I've been looking at so much yellow lately. I think of yellow because of the those. [00:27:51] Kerry Newsome: But see, yellow to me is associated with Hoi An because of the, a lot of their buildings and the shop houses, et cetera have got that yellow walls to them and they, it's quite well, known, I think Dalat is purple. I don't know what city would we call as red? Would that be Hanoi? Maybe? [00:28:14] Thomas Levine: Yeah, there's a lot of I just think of red and I see those lanterns which are in Hoi An and I just looked at one, I took a picture of in Hanoi. They're all over the place. They're not as prevalent in Hanoi as they are here in, in Hoi An. It's a photographer's paradise. But you, are right it is colour everywhere. [00:28:38] Thomas Levine: You have the ocean, you have the beach you have the rice fields, which actually make pretty good pictures too. And then of course you have in town and you have some of the popular locations you could get on a boat, you can rent a boat and they could take you on a tour and take pictures. Those are, you can take, get some great pictures that way. And actually I've stood from shore and take pictures of these boats, and they're taking a picture of me at the same time. I'm taking a picture of them, so it's a little strange. [00:29:08] Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and you've got that twilight, haven't you, on the river. [00:29:11] Thomas Levine: Oh yeah. You get some great lighting here and then, and when you're in Old Town and that bridge and the lighting goes down, the light, the sunsets and the light hits it just right. And you got the boats going underneath. They make some great pictures from shore. [00:29:29] Kerry Newsome: And it's happy hour. [00:29:30] Thomas Levine: Yeah. If you're not in the crowd because you're standing on the bank but it does get crowded. [00:29:37] Kerry Newsome: My favorite time of the day. [00:29:37] Thomas Levine: It does get crowded here. But at the same time, you have a lot of areas that are crowded, like I said, the beach and the rice fields. Because if you want to take a walk or you want to take a bike ride, rice fields are great for that. [00:29:50] Kerry Newsome: So we've covered a little bit on Ninh Binh , a little bit on Dalat do you want to speak to everyone about Hanoi? What would you be looking for in Hanoi? [00:30:01] Thomas Levine: Hanoi street photography people there's just these street vendors with flowers. They're sending fruit. They have their bicycles loaded down with, there's one, there's a guy, he has conical hats. He has all kinds of hats, and he carries that on a bicycle and watch it around. So you could stand on the sidewalk and just pick a place that's busy and you can take pictures of people going by. And that's my, one of my favorite things to do. But like we, we were talking about space. If you're looking down the street and you have tons of traffic where it's just traffic all the way across your front, okay. There's not too much of a picture there sometimes, unless you, unless it's for colour or something like that, but you, it's too busy. You know what I mean? So one of my favorite pictures is, Looking down in the middle of the street. Okay. So if it opens up, which it will open up, you could see down into the middle and you can see some stuff going on down the street and then you have people on the right and people on the left on their motorbikes. And it makes an interesting picture. And I've got a guy that's carrying some piece of glass or something at least way down in the middle. You want to it takes your eye automatically. It's a line. It's ev even though it's not a line, it's a line because you have people on the right, people on the left. It's a border. It's a frame that you're going down the middle and in the middle if you got something else going on in there, you want somebody to look inside your picture because that's where the stuff's going on. But you can't you got to have an avenue, you got to have an alley for your eye to go into. I mostly take the lake. It is so pretty. [00:31:52] Thomas Levine: Yeah, there's flowers around the lake. Sometimes I'll take, I, I took a picture of some flowers and then I thought these are nice flowers. And then I actually moved the camera. When I took the next picture so that the flowers are blurry, so it looks like they're blowing in the wind. You have to experiment to, to get it right. But it's a beautiful lake and they have that circle with people. You, if you want to take portraits, you can put people around that circle with the fountain. I think it's a fountain. And that's a nice picture. [00:32:26] Kerry Newsome: And you’ve got the red bridge. [00:32:27] Thomas Levine: Yeah. When I was there, they were painting it unfortunately. But yeah, the red bridge really sticks out. It's great. [00:32:34] Kerry Newsome: It's iconic. Yeah, absolutely. Is there another city you'd like to talk about? [00:32:40] Thomas Levine: I, went down to the Mekong that's an interesting, and when you go onto the floating markets, that's an interesting picture. You get four in the morning and you get the sun coming up. Now I had the sun in my lens a lot of times, so a lot of pictures just didn't come out that great because it was just a really bright sun. And I could, and I was in a boat so I couldn't like, say go, I was at a tour so I couldn't say go left or go right. But if you get your own boat and you hire a tour person and you don't have any other passengers, they'll take you wherever you want to go. But get people working. It's interesting because they have these big boats and they're full of fruit and you got other people buying their fruit on their boats and they stick these poles up in the air with whatever fruit they're selling it. I took a picture of the person that was operating my boat, she saw I was taking a picture. So what does she do? She poses for the camera. I didn't really want that, so I took a few like that and then I had to wait until she was actually busy and then I took the picture and that's the picture that I liked because it was casual. She was busy. That's she was doing her job and that's what I liked. But she was posing as soon as she knew I was taking the picture right before that, she posed for it. Maybe you want that. Some I like having some of those too. It's good to have different stuff because when you're showing different people or you're showing the one person, all these different pictures, you don't want your stuff boring, like I said. Yeah. If you have somebody standing right smack in the middle of a frame on every picture, it's boring. So you want to Have them show like you, they're the guide and they're showing you the area. They could have their arms out, they could have the statue and leading on the statue. There's all sorts of things you could do when you have a travel buddy. So that makes it fun that's really what the name of the game traveling, is having fun. [00:34:37] Kerry Newsome: Absolutely. Yeah. And capturing as many great memories as you possibly can. You're not always going to get the perfect circumstance, but certainly I think photography plays such a big role in preserving those memories for people long beyond and trying to explain it to other people. When you get home, I know when I get home and I say, oh, I went to such and such, and. I'll show people women dressed in their Ao Dai's or the schoolgirls riding their bicycles home from school, and they're all dressed in white Ao Dai's because that's what they wear to school. People can't believe that in this day and age that you know. The Vietnamese as a whole, very strong sentimentality, I guess towards their traditions, which I think is fabulous. And wear their Ao Dai's with pride and it's not staged. It's not just for tourism. [00:35:37] Thomas Levine: Part of the culture. [00:35:44] Thomas Levine: For instance, when I was sitting I was having dinner with my friend and we were inside and we were talking about some old times and he broke out in laughter what we were talking about, and that's when I took the picture and he had lost it he just he was laughing so hard. [00:36:03] Kerry Newsome: I love it. [00:36:04] Thomas Levine: The picture and it was like preserved, it's perfect. That's what you want to do. [00:36:09] Kerry Newsome: Because you never get that time back again. That's why I stress over taking good pictures. [00:36:13] Thomas Levine: Exactly. Yeah, it's just you're taking a snapshot in time. Although I don't like the word snapshot, but you're really making pictures when you take time to take a picture and you're trying to line things up. You're thinking about it. You're making a picture. Not just taking a picture. [00:36:28] Kerry Newsome: Yes. And that's where the art comes into [00:36:31] Thomas Levine: And the more you know about it the better. Sometimes if you don't know about it too just. I think a lot of it's aesthetic, but there are principles and there's like rules of photography. But my biggest thing is it's okay to break the rules because there's really no rule. It's you can make up your own rules if you want. Now whether somebody else likes it or not, it's the next question, but if you like it Yeah, and purpose is important. Is it for you or is it for other people, or do you want to sell it? [00:37:04] Kerry Newsome: it it's all those different kind of purposes. What is your purpose? If it's for your own memory? You can take it any which way. [00:37:12] Thomas Levine: As far as travel I, when I talk about travel, it's usually because they've just taken it for themselves or show their friends. [00:37:20] Kerry Newsome: Okay, Thomas is there some information that you can leave with us so everyone can contact you maybe to get some lessons from you or things like that? [00:37:34] thomas_2_02-15-2023_105136: I'm almost done and I'm working on an e-book. On travel photography, but it's tips. And I go through line and I go through colour. I don't go through all the elements of art. I just want to give somebody a basic thing. They could go out and improve their photography because that's the whole thing. But if you make it too technical, yeah, I talked about art more than the technical side. I want to make it easy. Okay. And the technical side, operation of your camera, there's all sorts of stuff on the internet on that. So, you should learn how to use your camera and if you have the smartphone, if you want to take more creative pictures, you should look into the apps that they have for controlling shutters, speed and aperture. And they have other apps too. And you could do slow motion. There’re all sorts of stuff. So yeah. [00:38:28] Kerry Newsome: Okay, Thomas, thanks very much for being on the show. [00:38:32] Thomas Levine: Thank you very much, Kerry. I appreciate the interview.

S4-12 Contemporary Art in Vietnam What About Vietnam – S4-12 Contemporary art in Vietnam - A window to the future SPEAKERS: Suzanne Lecht, Kerry Newsome Kerry Newsome: 00:00 Xin Chào, and welcome to What About Vietnam . Today's subject is Contemporary Art, and I guess you might be thinking as a traveler, not sure whether that's of interest to me? How is that going to impact my trip? Or how will that help me make some decisions? The fact of the matter is, that contemporary art or art of any kind really, is a form of storytelling. The reason I am thrilled to have my guest on the show today is because she's one of the greatest advocates of contemporary art in Vietnam. I'm talking about Suzanne Lecht. 00:47 Now, just a little bit more about what to expect from today's show. You're going to hear a lot about the evolution of contemporary art. The storytelling depicts war-torn and poor Vietnam through building bridges of hope and prosperity to a thriving Vietnam. When you're traveling about and you're looking at architecture, you're looking at monuments, or you're looking and visiting various cities, which are absolutely steeped in history. You're trying different foods, you're seeing families live in different situations. Some of them may appear to you like they're kind of lost in time. You're going to get a really good feel for just how that comes to be. You've got some insights through the storytelling in today's show, and just how Suzanne Lecht has come to know Vietnam, since coming to Hanoi, in 1994. 02:05 She actually came to Vietnam in 1994, and prior to that in 1992, in Tokyo, she'd lost her husband. Obviously devastated after that loss, she formed an innate love of art. She had a desire to live and work with artists. Now at this point in time, she's in Tokyo, but she knows nothing about Vietnam. It’s kind of strange when she's willing to ring the packers and ask them to pack up everything and she's going to move to Hanoi. 02:50 She's very intrigued by an article she reads, picturing a group of individuals called the 'Gang of Five' . She then follows them and joins them to help promote their work around the world. She goes on to build a house with them, which is called 'The Salon'. It's a beautiful, intimate, creative reflection of the culture of Vietnam. It's where she holds many of her exhibitions. It's only open by appointment, and she offers: ● Private Parties ● Art Consultations ● Poetry Readings ● Music Events Her real strength is in curating exhibitions, and she shows in Vietnam and other cities worldwide including Hong Kong, Paris, New York, The Hague, London, Miami, San Francisco. 03:59 I hope what you're going to tune into is her love of Vietnam. Intrinsically that is the key thread to this and how she learned about Vietnam through living and working with these artists and seeing their work and their artistic expression. You are going to love the show. There's a lot to it! She's a delightful guest and storyteller. I got to meet her in Vietnam on my trip, and I'm so glad I did. I got some time with her one on one in her beautiful Salon, Vietnam Art Space, which you can arrange by appointment to visit, the links will be in the notes for you to do that. Without further ado, let's welcome Suzanne to the program. 05:07 Suzanne, Welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast! Suzanne Lecht: 05:11 Thank you, Kerry, thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here. Kerry Newsome: 05:17 Suzanne, you certainly have a very deep understanding of Contemporary Art in Vietnam. I'd like to explore that with you a little bit, if I may. I'll begin by asking you, how you developed that interest in art that you have, and how that found you to be in Vietnam? Suzanne Lecht: 05:47 I guess that would be kind of like the magical carpet ride, so to speak. Kerry Newsome: 05:55 [laughter] That's okay. That is good to start with. Suzanne Lecht: 05:59 My very first interest in - I mean, my family's been involved in art. My father's sister was a well-known artist from Montana, who actually went to art school in Paris in the 40s. She was a big influence on my life. As I was growing up in a small, tiny town in Kansas, my mother had me take painting classes. I was always just creative, I suppose, and interested in art. Then I studied art in school, and I moved to New York and moved to Tokyo. I was working as an interior designer, not as a practicing artist, because my father made it clear that eventually, after my education, I was going to have to support myself. Of course, he knew the struggles of an artist. So, it was when I was living in Japan with my husband. Shortly after his death, a friend of mine brought me an article about a group of painters in Hanoi. I read the article, and that is what inspired me to go to Vietnam. Kerry Newsome: 07:24 Well, you've brought up a group of individuals, and I'm presuming this group of individuals is named the Gang of Five. I believe there is a deeper story to them, maybe you can expand on that for us, so that we can better understand their plight at the time when you first met. I do believe you actually had to try and track them down to begin with. So maybe talk us through that and give us some context to the times or that era of art in Vietnam. Suzanne Lecht: 08:05 I'm very happy to, because that was a really important part, like the fire to my mission, I would say here. As I mentioned, after my husband died, I was living in Japan and had given up my life in New York and really wanted to stay in Asia. I had no idea where to go, what to do, and went to many places. I went to Hong Kong, Beijing, Chiang Mai, looking for some big passion, you know, to pull me out of my sorrow and to start a new life and nothing was really working. Then a dear friend of mine, Mary Walsh, who was a producer for CBS News at the time, had just been invited in October of 93 to go to Vietnam on Cathay Pacific's, one of their inaugural flights from Hong Kong to Saigon. 09:09 She didn't come to Hanoi, but she returned with her magazine called The Vietnam Investment Review. This was the first English language newspaper in Vietnam at the time. It's the early 90s, Vietnam is just beginning to open up to the outside world, still very poor and completely ravaged by the war. In this magazine, I saw this article that said, it was written by Nora Taylor. She was pursuing her PhD at that time in Asian Art studies, and particularly in Vietnamese Art. She is now one of the foremost specialists in Vietnamese Art in the world, quite well known. She teaches at the Art Institute in Chicago. 10:02 Anyway, she had written this article, she was just a young girl then writing her thesis. She mentioned this group of painters that she had become friends with called the Gang of Five. The title of the article was: Art from the Heart - The Gang of Five holds their third joint art exhibition. Then the article goes on to talk about these five male artists, very hip and handsome, and showed some of their works and spoke about how this group of artists represented. They were the first generation of artists to paint in a time of peace in over 1000 years. The Vietnamese were at war with the Chinese for 1000 years, then the French for nearly 100 years, then the Vietnam American war, another 20 to 25 years. When they got out of art school, it was 1980. 11:09 The war's over. The Russians had ceased their support of Vietnam. They were trying to get back on their feet, it was very poor, so that artists were no longer supervised, and they were no longer required to do propaganda work. All of a sudden, they were free. These artists were all born between 1960 and 1962. They were just young children during the war, and unlike all the children in Hanoi, they were evacuated to the countryside. They lived with oftentimes people they didn't know, just really old people, that just had farms and had simple existences. Their lives were very tenuous, so they only had the day to believe in. 12:07 All of a sudden, they're free, they graduated from school, and they don't want to paint about the war. They're beyond the war. They want to paint about hope, the future and joining with the world. It was such a spirit of like - For me, especially as I looked at the work, I could see influences of Matisse, Picasso, Van Gogh. It wasn't art that was so foreign, as other Asian art might be. There was a western context, and yet, it's Asian art. Of course, it had that wonderful fusion of East and West. I saw the work and I thought to myself, "Wow, we Americans, as a culture, know nothing about Vietnam." Vietnam is just this tragic, terrible war, which was such a tragedy for both sides, for all sides. 13:11 So, I thought, "Wow, this is amazing. " This is something that I could go to this country, and I could work with these artists. I could make a bridge between the two countries, America - my country, America and Vietnam, through the spirit of art. Art that had nothing to do with a war, art that was about the power of the spirit, and how art can transcend and transform suffering. With that impetus to that emotion, I just simply picked up the phone and I called the moving company and said, "Pack me up. I am moving to Hanoi." My mover was quite shocked, Japanese, he had moved me a couple of times in Hanoi. And he took a long inhalation and then just said, "Oh, my! Mrs. Lecht. Have you ever been to Vietnam before?" I said, "No." Another deep inhalation, long silence, and he came and packed me up. A month later, I arrived. Kerry Newsome: 14:33 So, Suzanne, you arrived in Hanoi, obviously, with all great intentions that you've just spoken to us about. I think they sound fantastic, and I agree with you. I think art can transcend and tell stories of people's lives in so many ways. You've arrived in Vietnam, and it is Hanoi. Tell us about what that felt like. Suzanne Lecht: 15:00 So, I woke up. My first day in Hanoi and unbeknownst to me, Hanoi is cold. Kerry Newsome: 15:10 Nobody thinks of it as being cold, do they? It's freezing! Suzanne Lecht: 15:14 We thought of it- I thought of it as a jungle and tropical and it's really cold. It was January 8, 1994, lightly raining, really cold. I wake up and if I look out my window, I'm in a small little mini-Hotel. Nobody speaks English, there's nothing in English at that time, no guidebooks or anything. I must say, I looked at that, "What in God's name am I doing here?" [laughter] "What was I thinking?" It was really quite glorious because now when I reflect on what happened. I went to the window and looked down with all those apprehensive feelings. I see a little old man in his pajamas, cotton striped pajamas, which you often used to see in those days. He was a cyclo driver, and he was going really slow. His entire cyclo was covered with a piece of plastic, and because it's lightly raining. 16:25 As I looked more closely in the seat of the cyclo, instead of a passenger, there was like this pristine white architectural model that looks sort of like the Hong Kong Yacht Club. I just thought, "Wow, this is so amazing." It's like watching the past peddle the future. He's going really slow, like a turtle, and it was just like that. It was like watching a turtle emerge from the mud in the spring to have this new life. So, I really thought to myself, "Suzanne, you are here at this extraordinary moment in time, when Vietnam is just crawling out of the debris of war and suffering and trying to connect with the outside world." So, I was so heartened by that. I thought, "I’ve just got to get out of the hotel and see Vietnam." I don't think I got in the same cyclo, of course, because he had a passenger. I got into a cyclo, and I went to see Ho Chi Minh. It was the only thing I knew to do. That was a very solemn, really beautiful experience for me. 17:55 I know it'll sound a little crazy. But my husband was a Russian Jew, his family was from the Ukraine. He had a beard, and he had these beautiful brown eyes. When I looked at Ho Chi Minh, because he was a small, thin little man, with this beard and these beautiful brown eyes. I don't know, there's some kind of mysterious feeling that I had. I just felt, I don't know, I felt- Kerry Newsome: 18:26 Connection. Suzanne Lecht: 18:27 I felt connection. Yeah, I felt a really strong connection to this country that was a little bit intimidating, intriguing, exotic, strange and wonderful. Then I went to the back of the Mausoleum where the Ho Chi Minh Museum is, and I don't remember anybody being there. It was just - it's all writing, his writings and different stories about his life and artifacts. Then on the top floor, there was a wonderful display of video and photographs. I could see Hanoi in the 1930s and 20s, and it was very sophisticated. Kerry Newsome: 19:15 Yes, I have seen similar photos. Suzanne Lecht: 19:17 Such a surprise to me, because as I said, my image had always been in the context of war. I even saw, I think it was something like 1910, there was a World Design Fair in Hanoi. Where countries from all over the world brought their design objects to this building that was built by the French in about 1905. It looks like the Grand Palais, it’s extraordinary. I was just so surprised, intrigued, and then all of a sudden, a young man came up to me and started talking to me. It turns out he was Vietnamese, and he was 25 years old. We sat down and started talking, and he spoke English very well. Of course, I'm delighted to have someone to talk to. Then as he's telling me his story, he left when he was seven, on a boat, a very difficult journey as most all refugees. He was finally allowed to emigrate to New Zealand, where he was in and out of high school, working his way through life, as a car mechanic, and a ballroom dancer. So, I thought, "Wow, that's kind of a great Yin and Yang combination. Suzanne Lecht: 20:46 So, we sat down and started talking about dreams. And he said, "Well, my dream is to come back to Vietnam and discover my childhood and do something to help my country." And I said, "Well, my dream is I want to live and work in an art colony." And he pipes up and says, "Oh, well, I'm living with Phạm Quang Vinh, one of the Gang of Five. ow would you like to come home and have lunch with us?" So, it's some kind of- I mean, on my very first day, I went to have lunch with Phạm Quang Vinh. And of course, I as a Westerner, and my western friends say, "Oh, my goodness, that's such- what serendipity?" Kerry Newsome: 21:32 Oh, coincidence. Suzanne Lecht: 21:36 Asians, as you probably know, they just say, "Oh, that's nonsense, which was your destiny, and you belong here", and like, "What are you doing? Get to work." Kerry Newsome: 21:48 "What's holding you back? You've just been given your path." Suzanne Lecht: 21:51 Exactly. Yeah, so that was my splendid entry point. Kerry Newsome: 21:56 For everyone listening, I have the benefit of doing some reading about you. Obviously, your journey with the Gang of Five and in supporting them. I like the wording you use 'building that bridge', in the sense of between America and between Vietnam, in exposing this kind of art. I think, as you rightfully say, in the 90s, and really even into the early 2000s, Vietnam was coming to the radar of a country, rather than known just for being a war. I can remember my first tour guide actually said, "This is Vietnam, we're a country, not a war." I thought that there's a point in that to take home. I think, in that era for you to accidentally, purposely stumble on one of the Gang of Five. That obviously led you further down the track. For my listeners, can you talk about the journey with the Gang of Five and the art and how you brought that to the rest of the world? I know, there's a building involved, there's lots of things in this. Maybe if you can just draw us a picture of just how you started to work with them and bring their art out to all of us, to the world. Suzanne Lecht: 23:37 Thank you. Well, like I said, meeting Phạm Quang Vinh was this really splendid invention of my future life, I would say. Of course, I knew nothing about art in Vietnam. So then from the very first day that I met him, these artists were so eager to be- there was no internet yet at that time, and everything was controlled. You couldn't get books or music, or it was very difficult to have access. I had to leave the country every month and a half to get a new visa. So, I only came the window to the outside world, and they became my window to this enchanting world of Vietnamese culture. Not just in art but in music, literature, traditions and folk art. Eventually I hired this young overseas Vietnamese, because I needed a translator. Kerry Newsome: 24:52 Yeah, to get around the language. Suzanne Lecht: 24:54 Yes, exactly. I said, "I will pay you to be my translator, so that you can stay here. And I can explore and discover Vietnam." He worked with me and usually some other artists, not always from the Gang of Five. Different artists each day and somebody would come to my hotel to pick me up. We would go everywhere. I mean, sometimes it would be 10 o'clock at night and we'd ride on motorbikes to a pagoda and watch the sunrise and just- Magical! I was so blessed by this magical journey. As I was saying, along with this journey of exploration at that time, it was very difficult to travel in Vietnam. Most people were on bicycles, the very fortunate ones had motorbikes. As a foreigner, if you want to go to the countryside, number one, you have to have permission. Also, there was no way to get there. 26:06 So, one day when I was in Saigon, I saw this white Jeep, and I ended up about- "Well, that's great. It would be great to have a car like that." The owner, oddly, invited us in. He saw me and this young overseas Vietnamese, looking in the garden. He had all these cars. He was like an antique car collector. He had some Citroën, and it was beautiful inside. Then he had this Jeep, and I asked my friend who was a car mechanic. I said, "Oh, wow, look at that Jeep. Wouldn't it be great to have something like that to travel? I think we could go everywhere." At that moment, this man comes out of the house, and he's the owner. He was very gracious. He was probably about 65 at the time. He invited us in, and it turns out, he had been the Foreign Trade Minister to Japan. He spoke some Japanese and he found out that I'd lived in Japan, and I ended up with the Jeep. I bought the Jeep. We drove it to Hanoi, which was an incredible experience. Then we took some artists and we drove through the countryside up through Điện Biên Phủ, Sangla, and we ended up in a village, called Mai Chau and San Quan. It's beautiful! Kerry Newsome: 27:50 A lot of textiles and yes. Suzanne Lecht: 27:53 Beautiful textiles. The fine arts universities require all of their students, every summer, to live in a different province. Then in about 1978, Vinh, he was an article, he elected to go to Mai Chau to live for the summer. He lived with this white Thai family, and he hadn't seen them for about 15 years. So, he said, "Oh, let's stop by and see this family." We did, and it was magical. I mean, it was like a huge event. The whole village came and sang and made wonderful food. It was just a really beautiful experience. That ended up in Vinh buying a house. He told me about a week later, "Oh, Suzanne, I bought my house and I'm going to bring it to Hanoi," And he put it on this piece of land that he owns. "And use it as my studio." And I thought to myself, "Oh, wow, I would love to live in a house like that." I’m thinking about it, thinking about it. I said to Vinh, "You know Vinh, instead of paying rent to somebody I don't know for a house in Hanoi. Why don't I pay rent to you? Let's make this house bigger." We could have a gallery on the first floor, and you could have a studio and... I didn't say this, but the idea was that I could live in that house on stilts! [laughter] So that's what happened. We ended up creating this beautiful house. Kerry Newsome: 29:41 Oh, it's divine. I've seen the pictures. We have to make sure that we include some of the pictures of that house. I'll put that on the website for everyone because it is just exquisite. It's just delightful. I don't know how much involvement you had in the design or the architecture or design of it, but it certainly came up magically from the photos that I saw. This place became your first real gallery where you started. Was that a public gallery or just for private viewings? That's more your specialty, isn't it? Suzanne Lecht: 30:24 Well, it was very private, because at that time, as a foreigner, I wasn't allowed to have that kind of business or anything. It was really simply my home. I would hang art from all the Gang of Five and also other artists that I met. We finished the house, and we designed the house together. We created it a bit like children would, like, "Oh, that would look nice there." It was just a creation of joy, really collaborative joy. People would hear about foreigners or businesspeople that would come to Hanoi, would hear about this American lady who had friends with the artists, and they would contact me. 31:17 So initially, they would come here, and then I would take them to different artists’ studios. Not only did I work with Gang of Five, but I worked with a lot of other artists, as I kind of collected them along my path. Then I had my very first exhibition of five Vietnamese artists. Phạm Quang Vinh was the only one from the Gang of Five. I tried to pick different generations and different styles to really represent Vietnamese art at the time. This was in Hong Kong, and it was supported by Hongkong Land which is a company that was one of the biggest land developers in Asia. They had just started to build the first office tower in Hanoi. The CEO loved art. And I had taken him around to see all this art. And he said, "Suzanne," It was just before the handover, in 1997, Hong Kong back to China. And he said, "Let's do an exhibition of Vietnamese art." 32:24 I chose these five artists, and I called the exhibition "The Changing Face of Hanoi ." It was really wonderful. Four of the artists had never been on a plane, and had never left Vietnam. Of course, coming to Hong Kong, it's a big, sophisticated city. It was so wonderful. I stayed for three weeks to work on the exhibition. I had a lot of support from wonderful friends in Hong Kong, and it was a very successful show. We sold nearly three fourths of the work; we had 57 works. Art and gouache on paper. I think that the audience was like me. They were so surprised that this really sophisticated, beautiful art was coming out of Vietnam. 33:18 I would continue to do exhibitions overseas, because as I said before, I'm not allowed to do things in the country. I mean, you have to have permission. I finally did an exhibition with the Vietnam Fine Arts Association. And a wonderful Vietnamese woman who was the director of that association, who became my sponsor, in 2000, was called in praise of the paper. That was 10 artists from Vietnam who did works on handmade paper, and 10 artists from this center in America called Pyramid Atlantic . Its artists from all over the world who do works on handmade paper. Four of those foreign artists came for the opening, and it was quite wonderful. Those are just a couple of my first exhibitions. I did art fairs in Paris and New York and different things. Then in 2002, I had very little money left, and I thought, if I'm ever going to have a public gallery, I have to do it now. So, I did! I opened my first public gallery in our old Vietnamese traditional tube house in the Old Quarter in 2002. Kerry Newsome: 34:43 Yes, I've seen photos of that too, and that's a stunning room and areas and space. It's just- I mean, I don't know about you, but I do get affected by some of the ways in which Vietnamese can create a feeling within a space, within a building, with very small things. There's just energy, isn't there? That you feel when you walk in. Sometimes it's quite overwhelming, sometimes it can bring emotions to you. Maybe it comes from their religion, being Buddhist, I think they just have a knack of being able to create wonderful and beautiful spaces. 35:34 Can I take you or ask you to take us, better still, into some aspects of just how Vietnam was viewing you doing this? The more I've got into art and learning about it myself, I hear coming up every now and then about the culture police. Maybe you can talk to us just briefly and touch on that, so that we understand how Vietnam wants to be seen by the world. They had some fairly strict attitudes to what they wanted to present. Maybe you could speak to that a little bit. Suzanne Lecht: 36:15 Yeah, that continues to be a condition, I would say, of living and working here. Being American and being of the Vietnam War generation, I think from the very beginning, I've always been aware that I'm a guest in this country. I've tried to always remember that. I can read this as just a funny story. The Culinary Institute of America wanted to come here, I think it was about 2000. They wanted me to take them to some art studios and such. They sent an email, which was the only way to communicate at that time. In the subject matter, it reads, "CIA wants to meet you." [laughter] Culinary Institute of America, right? And I was like, "Oh, no!" Kerry Newsome: 37:21 [laughter] No, that's not gonna work. Suzanne Lecht: 37:24 Not a good acronym to use in Vietnam, with me, especially. Kerry Newsome: 37:28 Exactly. Suzanne Lecht: 37:30 Everything always happens in such subtle ways. This was right before I was going to do that exhibition of works on handmade paper with all these artists from America. I was back in America and my visa, which was always kind of automatic that I would get when I went back for the summer. It just wasn't coming. The approval wasn't coming through and I wasn't getting any answers. Finally, I just got a tourist visa, although by that time, I'd lived here already for about eight years. I had built a house. [laughter] Anyway, I came through immigration, and they said, "Oh, okay, you can come in, but you have to go see immigration, immediately. Nine o'clock tomorrow morning." 38:26 So, my secretary, said, "Oh, everybody's been asking about you. What are you doing here in Vietnam? Who are you?" I went prepared to meet the Immigration Department. By that time, I'd done exhibitions in Paris, and I'd done that big show in Hong Kong. I published some books on artists in Vietnam, and I brought everything with me. They were very lovely and so polite. They sat me down, and they just said, " We don't understand who you are and what are you doing here?" [laughter] I think I have learned that. I really think at that time I was 50 years old and widowed, no children, no family. Of course, you can see where the - Kerry Newsome: 39:25 Curiosity came from. Suzanne Lecht: 39:26 Yeah! Especially after that email, with the CIA wanting to meet me. Kerry Newsome: 39:30 Yes. Who is this strange lady really representing ? Suzanne Lecht: 39:34 Yeah, and it was really wonderful because it gave me this whole story. Just like I'm telling you. And I said, "This is why I came here, because of these artists and this is my life." And I said,"I love this country. And people have been so kind to me. And I would love to stay here and continue my work, but I realized, I'm a guest in your country. So, if you would, please let me stay, I would really appreciate it." They were lovely. After that, there's been ups and downs, of course. But I think all joking aside, as an American, because I have friends here that are Vietnam War generation, or Vietnam veterans. And I think rightly so, we all feel that we have a lot of work to do here, to help if we can, if we have the ability, and resources to build these bridges of reconciliation, and to help heal the wounds of war, there's no better thing you can do with your life. Kerry Newsome: 40:54 My listeners are probably going to be keen to hear from you about the kind of work they can expect to see. Now, here we are in 2022 and we are coming out of COVID. That has had effects on all of us. Vietnam is open and again, travelers are looking to come and explore Vietnam. I know they will be coming to Hanoi, I hope they're coming to Hanoi, because it'd be crazy not to, because it's a beautiful city. Maybe you could speak to us a little bit about the art that they should look at if they're art collectors, or admirers. What should they be looking for in contemporary art in Vietnam? Suzanne Lecht: 41:45 Well, I think I'm really happy to be able to say this. Because of COVID, nobody could travel. The wealthy Vietnamese, well educated and art loving, had always collected their old masters and artists from the Indochina Era. Kerry Newsome: 42:11 Yes. Suzanne Lecht: 42:12 Which is really beautiful, but since they weren't really allowed to travel, I mean, nobody was traveling anywhere. A real interest in contemporary art has been seated and is just blossoming. So now that we're a little freer, it has been like a renaissance, an awakening, I guess, I should say. Now the artists are getting a lot of exposure. Vietnamese artists are now showing at the big art shows all over the world. I mean, not many, but some, that's the beginning, of course! A lot of the younger artists, the generation that know nothing about the war, they're doing multimedia, conceptual work, lots of video, lots of photography, very innovative uses of lacquer art, which is a traditional medium, but they're doing it in really new unheard of ways. We just did an exhibition last month of Contemporary Calligraphy, that's based on 'Nôm', which is the ancient original language of the Vietnamese. 43:33 It's interesting to see the reaction of the Vietnamese to this kind of work. The art lovers love it, because it's taking art beyond the confines of their culture, and it's mixing it with the outside world. Traditional scholars, maybe not so much. They don't like it so much. I think that's just the way an art flourishes, you have to have some kind of pushback, then you have to really verify and be proactive about providing the reasons you're doing work the way you are. I think it's a wonderful time for all kinds of people who are interested in art to come to Vietnam. There are good galleries all over the country, Saigon, Hanoi, Hồ Chí Minh City. There are many artists that have artist cooperatives that show work. There's a lot of performance. There's a lot of Vietnamese music, I think people in the world know this, where they're doing, combining traditional instruments with classical Western instruments, creating new sounds. The drivers of this new movement, these artists are young, they're in their 20s, 30s, 40s. So, it's like a new Vietnam integrated with the world. Kerry Newsome: 45:12 Fascinating. Isn't it? Suzanne Lecht: 45:13 This is so fascinating, it's a wonderful, wonderful time to be here and to come here. Kerry Newsome: 45:20 I totally agree with you. I'm just so impressed with the talent that is springing forth, and as you say, they're not bound by any myths or stories that hold them back. They feel an entitlement to expand and push the boundaries, explore and develop, and it really is- The country is growing exponentially. I think that's one of the reasons why there is a lot of youth in the country, as you say. It is a great time to be involved with Vietnam and to visit and I think there's a lot more to explore. I just want to touch on briefly. I think, for a long time Vietnam was kind of in that era of arts, probably more around the 80s, or the 90s, where there were a lot of copies made. A lot of copy art, a lot of fake art, and it was hard to really know what you were looking at, because they were so good. There are people that say, they could do the Mona Lisa, it would be that good. 46:41 I wanted to just touch on that, so that people can appreciate that they're not going to get this work of art, this real work of art, as from a true artist, they're not going to get it for copy prices. There are some times, I think, misconceptions that everything in Vietnam is cheap, or everything in Vietnam- they're going to be able to get these bargain door prices. I was talking to Bridget March, I had her on the program , and she was singing your praises. She was saying you'll probably be able to tell the real from the not real by the price. Suzanne Lecht: 47:27 Well, yes. I mean, a lot of people come here, and they’ve been told or whatever, "Oh, you've got a bargain for this and that." That time is over. Kerry Newsome: 47:43 There's not everybody that has got that through their head. One of the things I wanted to do on this show is kind of change perceptions or get the perceptions right. Suzanne Lecht: 47:54 Yeah, of course, it's hard to know. You have to do your research and see what the prices are. I think that for really good, innovative original art, you're going to be paying international prices in Vietnam. Gone are the days when you could buy a fantastic oil painting for $500 that today would be worth $10,000. Those days are over. The issue of copying. Every country of the world has that. I mean, this is how artists learn here, by copying masters, and that's very common in Asia. I think there is a variety of really good art here in Vietnam that has nothing to do with the old masters' works. These are creative new works, and quality. If you go to quality galleries and artists’ studios, you will be able to tell. I'm very sensitive to the bargaining issue, because for me, there's some things about artists. Number one, they have such a hard life and it's a gift to be an artist. It is some kind of blessing gift and I think people should respect that. Obviously if they think it's way too expensive, okay, well, find another artist or maybe it is too much. You have to let your commonsense kind of tell you. Now that Vietnam is on more of an international level. They're showing all over the world so they can't have crazy different prices everywhere. The prices will be the same. Kerry Newsome: 49:52 Okay, Suzanne, is there anything you'd like to finish off with in the program today for my listeners? It's been so good to talk to you, and just to get some history and get some background to the work you've been doing in Vietnam. Suzanne Lecht: 50:09 Well, thank you for asking Kerry! I would like to encourage all of you listeners to come to Vietnam. From my experience of traveling all over the world, the Vietnamese are the most open, generous, loving people I have ever met. It is a peaceful country. It's gentle, it's safe, it's peaceful. It's a joy to interact with people. It's a country that's just endlessly fascinating. It's a country from the art standpoint, where finally after Indonesia, Thailand, China, and Philippines. Vietnam is in the attention of major collectors and museums, and we're getting a lot of interest. If you're an art lover and would like to have Vietnamese art, the time is now! Kerry Newsome: 51:07 I think that's a great way to finish up the show. Thanks again, Suzanne, and we'll be talking again soon. Suzanne Lecht: 51:12 Thank you, Kerry Time Stamps - 00:00 Today’s Topic: Contemporary Art in Vietnam. 05:59 How Suzanne’s interest in art found her in Vietnam. 10:19 Article: Art from the Heart - Gang of Five Holds Their Third Joint Art Exhibition. 15:41 “What in God’s name am I doing here in Vietnam?” 21:32 How the Gang of Five became Suzanne’s window to the outside world. 27:52 Suzanne’s first gallery was in a house in Hanoi. 34:43 Vietnam’s culture and art. 40:13 What should the travelers be looking for, in contemporary art in Vietnam? 47:55 How can art lovers tell real art from fake art?

What About Vietnam 's Kerry Newsome specialises in informing first-time travelers to Vietnam through podcasts and transcripts. What About Vietnam is your voice of experience. Phone: AUS +614 416 677 793 slide 1 slide 4 slide 2 slide 1 1/8 Travel Services Request Start the discovery process with a trip plan and design? How to arrange a trip plan, click below What About Vietnam Travel Services can be tailored to your needs. 1. Are you looking for a Trip plan and quotation. Great. You are in the right place. Complete the form here and place your order. 2. Are you looking for Travel Companion Services? We suggest you start the discovery process from day 1- And that begins with an interview with our Director of TCS – Kelley McCarthy – Why not set one up today. If you already know this is the kind of service you have been looking for then complete the form here and place your order and Kelley will be in touch with you. What About Vietnam Travel Services is devoting this kind of service as a key deliverable of its Podcast and Travel business, and as a service to encourage tourism in Vietnam. Inquiry and quote request Trip planning and itinerary design for travel to Vietnam requires careful consideration of several key elements, including research, budgeting, itinerary design, accommodation, transportation, food and dining, and culture and activities. By prioritizing these factors, travellers can ensure that they have a memorable and enjoyable trip to Vietnam. At What About Vietnam we place a high priority on designing the best type of tour to suit your preferences, safety and budget. Please email for more information whataboutvietnam@gmail.com Please complete the form and submit along with the Paypal fee so we can get your plan in motion. What does the Trip plan include: A thoughtfully and carefully curated comprehensive itinerary that encompasses all aspects of your trip, fully quoted and inclusive of all travel services such as airport transfers, accomodation and flights. To prepare a comprehensive Trip Plan we charge a fee of $150 USD . Should the itinerary be accepted and the tour booked with What About Vietnam, the $150 USD is deducted from the whole trip cost. PLEASE NOTE WE ARE NOT ABLE TO PROVIDE ANY NURSING, WHEELCHAIR TRAVEL, DRESSING, BATHING OR MEDICATI ON AS YOUR COMPANION TRAVELLER. If any of these needs are currently required to maintain your optimum health we are not qualified to provide the travel companion service for you. First Name Last Name Phone Email Gender Date of Birth Intended travel date Describe your preferred level of travel Places of interest and activities Special dietary needs Have you ever travelled to Vietnam or Asia Describe level of fitness What are you looking for from your travel companion? Select an option Request for a comprehensive Trip Plan (see fee below) Request for a Travel Companion (no fee) To prepare a comprehensive Trip Plan we charge a fee of $150 USD . Should the itinerary be accepted and the tour booked with What About Vietnam, the $150 USD is deducted from the whole trip cost. FINAL FACT: The fee is required upfront when requesting the Travel Plan Itinerary and is non-refundable whether you proceed or not with the final plan. We look forward to creating your trip plan. Submit form

S4-18 Luxury Brand Travel Experiences What About Vietnam – S4-E18 Discover some of the best Luxury brand travel experiences in Vietnam SPEAKERS Kerry Newsome, Alexandra Hepworth Kerry Newsome: 00:18 Xin Chào and welcome to “What About Vietnam ”. I'm happy to say we are in our third year of the program, and that's all thanks to you. Your support and sticking with the show, even though it's been through some challenging times. We didn't know when travel was going to open up again. But here we are. It's in full flight now and Vietnam is coming back strongly. I'm thrilled to announce What About Vietnam is now recognized and recommended in the Vietnam Lonely Planet Guide for 22-23 . It's recommended as a reference tool for listening information about Vietnam. Wow! who would have thought that my love for this country and its people would bloom into this. 01:26 Today the show welcomes my lovely guest Alexandra Hepworth to talk about luxury travel in Vietnam. Vietnam has not always featured on the top 10 or so lists for luxury travel destinations. But steadily over the past, I think five to seven years, it is becoming an 'A Lister' for luxury experiences. With a uniqueness, I'm happy to say, my guest today describes it really well. Alexandra works for AZA Travel , a Bespoke Travel agency specializing in curating high end luxury travel. While her background starts with an equine science degree, she knows Vietnam very well, as up until 2020, she lived in Vietnam for nine years and worked with some of the big brands, such as The Fusion Group . She also represented the Vietnam Tourism Board , that Caravelle Saigon and prior to leaving, she worked on the opening of the Hyatt Regency in Phnom Penh. 02:32 I'm talking to her now in her new home of Bogota, Colombia, and in her role with AZA Travel, Alexandra is able to give us some firsthand information about some of the best luxury hotels and brands operating in Vietnam. Together, we take you through some of the big brands you may follow as a luxury traveler, and we peel the onion back so you can hear how they perform in this country. We think you will be pleasantly surprised that Vietnam is pushing that glass ceiling with innovative decor, experiences, spa treatments, and modeling that incorporates the locality, the beauty of Vietnam culture and its people. It was an eye opener for me with some of the properties she talks about, and I think it will be for you too. If you'd like some insights into your favorite brand and are keen to know if they perform as well or better in Vietnam. This is the show for you. 03:37 The fabulous thing about Vietnam is that each region offers its own unique history, culture, people, and landscape. So at any given point of your trip, you are potentially able to have a unique experience while still in the same country. It's an aspect of Vietnam travel that makes it exciting and rewarding, and why people find it hard to pick just one place or stay as a highlight when they get home. As each one is unique. I have to stop saying absolutely throughout the show. Please forgive me. You can go luxury all the way or you can mix up your stay with boutique homestays and luxury accommodation, to feel you're getting an authentic and well-rounded experience of Vietnam. 04:31 Alexandra has a wonderful way of describing the variables of luxury stays. That means in some cases, it's actually all about the property. You may not want to leave it for a few days and just embrace its opulence and pampering. While we wish we could have covered them all, we had to limit them to Alexandra's favorites, which I think, after listening you will agree was worth waiting for. You can find more about Alexandra from her details listed in the show notes. And of course, you can reach her through hours of travel. Please check the website for the transcript and further details. Without further ado, please welcome Alexandra Hepworth to the show. Alexandra, welcome to What About Vietnam. Alexandra Hepworth: 05:27 Thank you very much. It's fantastic to be here. Kerry Newsome: 05:30 Now we're going to be talking about an interesting subject. And that subject is luxury travel in Vietnam. Now, the reason why I'm referring to it as an interesting subject is that for Vietnam, it hasn't originally- or hasn't been in the luxury lane, so to speak, for very long. And it's really just starting to mature, in my opinion. So it's great to have you, and you work for AZA Luxury, which is a company, and I'll put the details in the notes for everyone. But I'm just delighted to have you on because you've also lived in Saigon for nine years. So, you know it really well. And you've seen lots of change. So we're going to be talking about some of the best locations, some of the hotels, some of the experiences, etc. So let's jump in and start with how best do we get there Alexandra, like as far as traveling to Vietnam by air or whatever. Can you speak to that, just to kick us off? Alexandra Hepworth: 06:48 Yeah, sure. Great introduction. All of those topics that we're going to cover are super interesting, and like you said, with my time there, I saw a lot of change, which I know we will touch on later. But one thing that did change a lot during my time in Vietnam was access into the country. That improvement of direct routes coming in from Europe, more recently from the US, from Australia, which has been around for a number of years, and all of those routes with the national carrier with Vietnam Airlines. So, there are many options to get there with transfers. But it's not always so convenient for people, adding on to travel time. So, I think with that development of Vietnam Airlines air routes, but also their product over that time, as well. I remember, four or five years ago, they launched a fleet of Dreamliners that had a fantastic business class product, and also a great Premium Economy products coming from Europe, which really put them on the map as well, because as well as having great access and visibility. It was also a very nicely positioned product in terms of price point when looking at some of the other carriers in the region. Kerry Newsome: 08:22 So they're going to come into Hanoi, or they're going to come into Ho Chi Minh City as the mains. Now, if we were to kick off as far as some of the really premium luxury experiences, where would you start? Where would you say, "Okay, well, number one has got to be..."? Over to you. Well, it's number one. Alexandra Hepworth: 08:51 Yeah, it's such a big question because there really is so much there and I think it's a very different experience for first time travelers to the country versus people who are also coming back, because it is such a diverse and beautiful country and it's actually a lot bigger than people think. So, there's a lot to see and do depending on how much time you have. I have actually recently put together a very nice itinerary for a family from the US who will actually travel over the festive season. That's touching on quite a lot of my personal highlights and experiences that I think are great for couples, for honeymooners, for families alike, because it is a very welcoming country as well. So, there are experiences for every type of traveler as well. So I will call on my own experience, but also a little bit of what I've designed for that family as well through my current role. 10:02 So I think, as you said, arrival into Hanoi, or Ho Chi Minh City, either one is fantastic. You can go north to south, south to north, whichever way you want- stop in the middle, there's so much out there. From my point of view in terms of culture, learning and real history, I think that Hanoi really does offer a little bit of everything, and you can see the influence of many different nationalities that have had on the country in this city over a vast number of years. I think, luxury product wise, there are beautiful colonial style hotels, The Sofitel Legend Metropole Hanoi is one, that's always on a bucket list, just because it provides that level of- I guess that French sense that you don't expect from Vietnam and I think that's the nice thing. 11:06 I think Vietnam is so unexpected for a lot of people because they hear the name, but they don't know much about it, and you really feel it once you get there. I think for me, even luxury experiences are walking the streets and sitting on the side of the street and really embracing that local culture as well as being in a beautiful hotel. But I think also seeing the sights outside of Hanoi, driving through the countryside seeing all the rice paddy fields and going out on to Hạ Long Bay is something that is very spectacular as well and something that's very indescribable for people really. I think going out on a beautiful junk, a private boat going in between all the mountains that are in the water, that beautiful flat blue water is just an incredible experience that you can't get anywhere else, and I think differently, that is one experience up in the north. Kerry Newsome: 12:12 I agree totally, and I think, for me when I think about the Sofitel Metropole, it's like the Raffles of Singapore, isn't it? It's got that colonial feel, and they have those beautiful afternoon teas and things like that. It's cooking lessons, it's got that just all that old world charm, just love it. Alexandra Hepworth: 12:37 It does. That kind of the French, colonial way, and I think it's divine, and the staff as well, they're so elegant in their outfits, and you feel something very special, and being so close to the opera house as well, you walk out there, and you see that beautiful building. There, it really puts you sort of in the center and gives you a sense of the place where you are as well. So, I think that property is one that I think has put itself on the map and has remained on the map while others have grown up. Kerry Newsome: 13:18 I think then, you know, the experience of Hạ Long Bay, being a UNESCO World Heritage Site in Vietnam, it likewise has developed and changed. I can remember I've had several experiences in Hạ Long Bay, from that real old junk, really crowded, a little bit messy to some upscale cruise ships coming in and being developed and even in Lan Ha Bay, because there's actually three bays that joined together, they develop Lan Ha and Lan Ha to me is just a little bit quieter, and some of those beautiful cruise ships and brands that have come on board, to me just takes it up a level. I don't think I've sent anyone there that hasn't come away and gone. It was nothing like I thought it was going to be. The old-world ships and their own architecture are so beautiful. The staff are beautiful, and just the serene pleasure doing Tai Chi early in the morning. I can see you and I have both been there, haven't we? It's just beautiful. Alexandra Hepworth: 14:44 It's special. I think you're right as well. I do think you know it is nice to also touch on the people because you are going into an unpopulated area, but yeah, there is still a population of people who live there on the water. That is also their life, and those people have a very, very simple life, but people don't know that there are schools out there and there are beautiful caves and there's places to canoe and you can go and really be a part of how the local people live. I think that that is something that is very unique. Kerry Newsome: 15:32 So now I'm going to take a big jump and take you to another area that I'd like your opinion on. Because we've done one, this came up in our conversation, and this is The Vietage Train . Maybe you can talk to us a little bit about that experience, like, just what it includes, and we can touch on Quy Nhon in that as well. Alexandra Hepworth: 15:58 Yeah, sure. So, the train is a relatively new product, I believe in the last couple of years, and it's actually linking to destinations in the center of Vietnam, Hội An, and also Quy Nhon. Hội An is definitely the most well-known of places, being a stop on most people's itineraries going into central Vietnam and, Hội An is a very special place. It's serene, it's beautiful. It's also another UNESCO listed town, an old Japanese port, and you can really feel that difference in culture and in terms of the architecture and the design of the town and the way that it's all pedestrianized and surrounded by river. So Hội An is a very different experience from what you will have seen and felt in Hanoi and Halong Bay, that's what I really love about Vietnam, in general is that everywhere you go is something very, very different. 17:10 In terms of Hội An, it is also very close to Da Nang as well, which is the entry point, which I'm sure we will touch on a little bit later. So I will stay on topic, but yeah, the train itself is linking Hội An and another area called Quy Nhon. Both places are unique in their own right. The two properties that actually link and the operator of the train is the Anantara Hotel Group , linking Anantara Hội An in the Old Town, which is a beautiful colonial building set on the river and linking a much more modern property in Quy Nhon, which is a beachfront Old Villa property, [ Old Pool Villas I believe- property which is very secluded, very romantic, and a fantastic addition to the hotel scene in Vietnam. And I think while Quy Nhon is not always on everybody's first time list, I do think that the destination for relaxation, for enjoying seeing something different is fantastic for people who live there. Because it's very, very short flight from Ho Chi Minh City. Obviously, there's the train journey that links the two. And it's also an up-and-coming destination, and it's nice to see it before it gets too developed as well. 18:36 The train itself is beautiful, carriages, includes food and beverage service, and again has that colonial sort of old school charm. It's very rare to travel by train in Vietnam. That's another thing that I would say that there is no real infrastructure for trains. In the country, we definitely don't have any high-speed trains that you would expect from Japan or that you see in in other places, it's very much old trains, sleeper trains that take a long time because there's only one set of tracks. So to have those beautiful luxury carriages going between those destinations is also a very, very beautiful and also unique experience that no one has had before. So I think, for those kinds of things to be developed also shows that there's a demand for new ways to travel the country for both people who live there and also for tourists. Again, like I said before, because we have so many second time is coming back to Vietnam. I think that a product like that is something that really appeals to those visitors as well. Kerry Newsome: 19:51 We're now in central Vietnam, and we've got the choice of Hội An and like we can talk a whole show about Hội An, and I'm not telling you, I have done whole shows about Hội An, so we can't afford to give this show all to Hội An. If you are to travel to Da Nang, which we know is about a 25 minute drive. I'm gonna kind of put out there the InterContinental in Da Nang which I know it's a property, you know very well. So maybe we can talk about that property where it's located, and its proximity to Sonterra and Da Nang and maybe give some perspective of that, because it sticks out there on its own. It takes even a little bit to get there. So people would have to really know about it from its brand, but also, just where it is and where it positions people, because it isn't a an easy stroll into town or an easy stroll into Da Nang. You could speak a little bit about that property. I mean, it's even hard to get through the front door if you don't belong there. So that's my experience. Alexandra Hepworth: 21:12 Sure. Yeah, exactly. Now I am very, very happy to talk about that one, because like you said, it is a uniquely position property, both in terms of the brand and the product, but also in terms of its location. So, it's quite an interesting one. I would say that, that the property was- in my opinion, it was quite ahead of its time when it was actually when it was actually developed in in Vietnam. And they intercontinental developed it along with local ownership as well. And along with Bill Bensley , who is very well known for design, and also being a little bit quirky, and a little bit out there, which is definitely something that this property is, but it's also so unique and spectacular in its own way. Every corner you turn, there's something to take a picture of or something to do or see. 22:21 Access from Da Nang airport is around 25 minutes, but it is going the opposite way from Hội An. So, where most people would come into Da Nang and then travel towards Hội An and either stay in a property along the beach front in in Da Nang keeping themselves maybe 20 minutes or so away from home Hội An Old Town or stay in the town. The InterCon is actually the other way. So if you're wanting to go into Hội An, from there, it would then take you about 45 to 50 minutes. So, it is something to just bear in mind. Situation wise, it's actually up on a peninsula and up on a mountain. So, the drive to get there is actually quite an interesting one, it's a little bit windy and your kind of don't really know where you're going, because there's not much else around there. But the property itself is situated in its own private bay. It's actually situated on Monkey Mountain, and it's quite a steep property. I'm visualizing it. [crosstalk] Kerry Newsome: 23:31 That's what I think they miss out. Alexandra Hepworth: 23:32 It's like, "I'm thinking, I'm thinking." Yeah, but for that reason, the property is just an incredible design and incredible concept, which is something that, that I really like is the story behind the property because it's actually- when you arrive, you come into the top of the mountain and you just look out over the bay and look down onto the property which is quite an interesting way that it has been developed and to go about that. You have the beach right down at the bottom and then go up the mountain all the way through to the food and beverage outlets up at the top. The property is set into four levels. I think Heaven is at the top and Earth is at the bottom and there's a couple in the middle, that I don't remember. I think of the Sea, Earth, and one other. Those are really the kind of concepts for it. You move around the property either by buggy or on the beautiful pathways that they have. Or you can use- What's the word for the train that that goes like- the cable car that goes up the side of the mountain and I can never remember the word, but that in itself was just such a cool experience to go up and down the mountain and stop at each level. 23:39 The property also it's very black and white with these strikes of colors everywhere and the design is something that is very unique, but it also talks to its location, there's a lot of lanterns that you can see all around the property, which is very typical of Hội An and that region. There are monkeys, real living ones that are around. But there's also many different monkey statues and characteristics and those sorts of things, again, built in within the concept because of the location of the property, that used a lot of natural wood from around the area as well, that can be seen in in all the guest rooms. It really is just something very, very special. I mean, for me, it's a property where you feel something, when you go there, it's not a generic property. And I think that having the big brand on the property, but it doesn't feel like that in the slightest is something that's very different as well. I think that people will be pleasantly surprised when going there that it has that luxury, and the infrastructure of the brand behind it, but it also has its own personality, and that's something that I really like about it. Kerry Newsome: 26:12 It owns that space, it owns that piece of land, and it is a place in my opinion that people would go to, and pretty much want to just stay on the property. I mean, some would say it is an area which is starting to develop, as certainly, I'm sure you would have seen it come along in the last few years, just leading into COVID. Da Nang also, as a city has come on, but I think the property can stand alone because of where it is. With optimal weather, you wouldn't want to go anywhere else, it's just got everything. So, you are paying a pretty penny for it. But I think it's worth it, it's got that value. But once again, you've got that great brand, you've got that cultural depth to it, and you've got all that just uniqueness because there's just no one else to compare it to, because they own that bay, they can go up into the mountain as the langur monkeys and Monkey Forest, you've got Lady Buddha up the hill, you also can take a drive, and you can do the Hải Vân pass. Alexandra Hepworth: 27:39 Definitely, it is definitely a place where you feel like you want to stay. Again, I think if you're a first timer, you would need to take yourself off into Hội An and see it and be there for the day and sample the local food and all that sort of thing. Because it is very, very unique. But if you have the time to stay up there, then I definitely think it's worth it. There are obviously a multitude of properties now that have developed on the drive into Hội An as well over the last few years. Again, luxury high end brands coming in like Four Seasons, who also have a fantastic property, very, very different, but also very high end property. Properties in the town. So there really is something for everybody as well. Properties that cater to families, those that are more positioned towards honeymooners. So that area in the last 10 or 12 years has really just absolutely changed beyond recognition. Kerry Newsome: 28:48 I think when you are thinking about these properties. In particular, like this one, to me, I don't know whether you'd agree, but I would have some time at the InterContinental and then I would move property and stay in Hội An or stay in a property close to that to have a totally separate and different experience. I wouldn't try and stay at the InterContinental and do Hội An, because just from the travel perspective, it would be annoying when you don't want to do that. So, there's so many other places up there that I think you would have two different hotel stays if you're going to do that. Alexandra Hepworth: 29:29 Two very different experiences, you're right. Again, it really depends how much time people have, and where they're coming from, and I guess, the objective of the trip, but you're definitely right, a stay up there, plus a stay in Hội An Old Town. I mean, that is absolutely ideal. It's just two completely different experiences and then they're very close to each other. Kerry Newsome: 29:57 I'm going to take you back to Da Nang, we're going to jump on a flight. And we're going to go to Phú Quốc. So, talk me through your optimum experience or hotel in Phú Quốc. Alexandra Hepworth: 30:18 Phú Quốc is one of those destinations that I think the last five or six years has really gone on zoom. There's been so much development on the island, and in a very, very short space of time. You will see now that the all the brands are pretty much there: · There's InterContinental, again. · We have JW Marriott there. · We have also the Rosewood Group with a beautiful new world property. · There's also The Regent there, that just opened earlier this year. So, there's a lot of those very, very luxurious brands there on the island. And I think, what I would say about Phú Quốc is for me, the experiences there really are about the hotels. Me, with a hotelier background for the last seven or eight years, that's something that I really appreciate the hotel experience, because we spend a lot of time developing, so many on property experiences that sometimes people don't ever get to use them, because they're always out of the property or they go on a tour or they do something and they don't always spend the time on property. 31:39 That's very obvious more with city hotels than with resort style properties. But I think somewhere like Phú Quốc is a different proposition from Hội An and Da Nang because you are on an island, surrounded by the ocean with great weather, beautiful sunsets, all along the beach, but it's also definitely somewhere for me to go and relax, and pretty much stayed where you are. Because if I'm very honest about it, and it may have changed in the last couple of years since I last visited, but definitely at that time, there wasn't much infrastructure outside of the properties to cater for, especially for foreign tourists. I think for local travelers, and especially the local Vietnamese travelers, there's still a lot of experiences there. Because it's more local, they have the language and it's different. But for foreign tourists, I do think it's one of those a 'stay on resort and enjoy what you've paid for'. In terms of that, you are paying for luxury high end brands there. So again, why not enjoy where you've put your money and use it wisely. 33:01 One property that I do really like there, that I did mention earlier is the JW Marriott Phú Quốc . Just because again, I think by the end of this podcast, you'll know that I like the quirkier places I think. But those places that have a brand behind them, so that you really feel that level of service and security that you are going to get what you pay for. But in terms of design and experience, there's always something to look at, something to do, and that JW Marriott property for me, I have to admit that when I went there, I didn't really know what to expect at all. I didn't know the backstory of the property, I didn't know anything. And so, I was just intrigued for four days. Everywhere I turned it was just something completely different and the property is set up like a 1920 style university. And it has its own name. They created an entire story of, that it used to be a house of a family or an estate of a family and then it changed, and it was a university, and they have all this memorabilia all around the property. 34:23 Yeah, exactly. It's just fantastic, and the accommodation blocks, they're all different themed buildings as if they were the different study areas of the university. So you have like the anthropology wing and you have- I don't know the ornithology wing and the science lab which is actually the cocktail bar and all these kinds of things. So, it's very quick, like very different. There's a lot of color around. For me, it's just incredible, the way that it's been done, the staff, the uniforms, so like this cool, 1920s ladies, old baseball outfits and sports uniforms. So it's very high end, but it's relaxing, and it's quirky and it has a story. But it also has great food and beverages, a fantastic location, great service, and rooms. Most of them are pretty much ocean facing, many different swimming pools, for families, areas for couples. So, for me [crosstalk]. Kerry Newsome: 35:42 Let's take you from quirky now to probably what someone else that I did a show with, Connor Kelly, we are talking about a an archipelago of islands called the Côn Đảo islands. But in particular, there's a brand there that I think you know pretty well, The Six Senses brand. So let's talk for everyone about the Côn Đảo islands from the luxurious perspective, because Connor didn't go that route, and we didn't talk about the condo islands from that perspective. But the photos I've seen of the Six Senses resort look pretty amazing. So maybe talk to us a little bit about the Côn Đảo islands experience, be it that it's totally different again, It's an island. Alexandra Hepworth: 36:31 Yeah, it is. Yeah, exactly. I think what you've touched on there is really accurate again. When I go back to it, Vietnam has so many experiences that you can really have a different one every day, every time you come, an entire trip, you can spend a month just exploring and not really scratched the surface, but I think somewhere like Côn Đảo is nice, because it's, it's pretty untouched. I think, there's not so many properties there, and the ones that are there are pretty in the high-end space. Definitely, the Six Senses has always been a flagship of the island and a reason that people would go there. Again, small group of islands really somewhere to go, relax, enjoy, the Six Senses brand is very, very well known for spa, which is something that we haven't really touched on yet, but something that we should, because Asia, in general is fantastic for wellness experiences, and for spa experiences. 37:44 Those experiences, they're just there, wherever you turn, but to go to a brand that is very focused on those elements, again, gives a whole other spin on a trip to Vietnam, and you can stop halfway through your trip, either access from Hanoi or Ho Chi Minh City, and relax and take a wellness package or go and take a bit of a break from running around, just really go and again, have that very, very high level of service, high touch point of attention, especially on properties like that, that really do have a personal, individual guest focus because those properties and those brands really focus on the guests, as an individual, not as a couple or as a group, it's very much about what you need. I think that, again, to have a brand like that within a country like Vietnam, where it's quite unexpected that these experiences exist. Not only that they exist, but they are not so tough on your pocket as, let's say, other destinations within the region. That's something I think we can touch on a little bit more. 39:07 I would say that, to have that more of holistic experience as well, within a country like that is something that that, again, is a hook for a lot of travelers and especially now, you've probably seen quite a lot of reports about wellness travel in general and the demand for people to look after themselves and maybe not travel around and run around so much to tick everything off the list, take the picture and leave, and they are wanting those more personalized, healthy wellness related individual experiences. I think a country like Vietnam has had those for a very long time without it really being known. So now with Vietnam in general being put on the map by the development and the investment that has gone into In the country, from hospitality brands within the last five to seven years, I think that's also something that is very, very positive for the country and for the customer experience. Kerry Newsome: 40:11 Absolutely, I think, we're going to talk a little bit about, I guess, comparing Vietnam to its neighbors. I want to leave that to the end because I think it is worth mentioning. But so far, I've been doing a bit of a count list as we've been going. So: · We've got Hạ Long Bay. We've got Vietage. · We've got the InterContinental in Da Nang. · Definitely we've done the JW Marriott at Phú Quốc. And.. way up there! · We've done the Côn Đảo Islands. I've got two more that I want to run past you but one we didn't even touch prior to the show, and that's Nha Trang and Cam Ranh, maybe so I'm sure you're going to- I'm not going to preempt you, you tell me what you think is up there in the luxury in for Nha Trang. Alexandra Hepworth: 40:57 Nha Trang is also a very interesting destination for me, it's very close to Ho Chi Minh City, and also again from Da Nang, probably 35-minute flight from each memory. So it's always been one of those destinations where you either do it or you don't. It's not always on the itinerary path, if you have 10 or 12 days, sometimes it gets missed, but if you have a little bit more time, then it's always somewhere that is added and should be. I think destination wise, again, I keep saying the same timeframe, five to seven years, but that really is because in the nine years that I was in Vietnam from 2011 until 2020. The development in the country overall was just incredible. 42:20 Especially the economy, the people really changed, the education of people that had been educated outside and coming back and also the investment in our industry of those large hospitality brands and finding those destinations that mean something to people. Nha Trang is another one that just developed pretty much out of nowhere. It used to be a strip of hotels across the road from the beach in Nha Trang city. That's probably taking me back but probably about 45 minute drive from the airport, which is called Cam Ranh. But Cam Ranh itself, which is very close to the airport, was completely isolated, not developed, and yet it has the most beautiful strip of gorgeous white, clean sand. Kerry Newsome: 43:19 Well you ought to say it now, it's got the most stunning property now. There's a Movenpick there. Yeah, and I would think moving probably my number one for that. I've actually got an offer through What About Vietnam for that property. But you're right, it is on the same scale. But Cam Ranh years ago was like nothing, it just didn't even rate. Alexandra Hepworth: 43:45 It was just nothing. It was just the fishing area. I think when I was working for Fusion Group, we actually opened Fusion Resort, it was called Nha Trang in the beginning, because for the sole reason. Kerry Newsome: 44:09 Exactly, and what I still don't understand, it's part of Nha Trang. Alexandra Hepworth: 44:13 Yeah, they don't really know but we call it Fusion Resort Nha Trang and the name has actually now been changed to Fusion Resort Cam Ranh for the very reason that, that area has been so well developed that they don't need to use Nha Trang to hook people to know where it is anymore, and the property really is not in Nha Trang. So, that is one thing that I have noticed that the development up within that area. Again, beautiful, resorts all ocean facing, and I think what that development also brings outside of the brands going in there and I would say that it's not all the international brands, that are there in Nha Trang and Cam Ranh at the moment because it hasn't had that development at the same speed as Da Nang, for example. 45:10 You don't have luxury brands there. But there is InterContinental, which is a fantastic property. In Nha Trang City, there's a Western across from the Marriott as well. Exactly. So, it is coming, and it is there. And again, that confidence in Vietnam, as a destination on the whole, and being able to give a range of experiences for every type of traveler again. I mean, I think that, that is just testament to itself, and also the acceptance of the country to allow foreign investment and to really allow that to develop the country so that it can grow at the rate that it was pre-pandemic, because it was one of the- I think the second fastest growing economy in the world, huge exports, and the country really just went boom. And I think, again, a lot of that is testament to product development within the country. Kerry Newsome: 46:18 Let me assure you. It's definitely on the way back. 46:28 Just on the topic of wellness, now, I did take a wellness break in a beautiful property just out of Hue called Alba, Alba Wellness resort. Do you have a top luxury wellness resort? It doesn't matter where in Vietnam. If you were to put a pin on a map, where would you go for wellness, do you think, luxury top end? Alexandra Hepworth: 46:56 I think for me, a wellness experience is really about the property that you're in. I think you are right, that there have been a few experiences built in the last few years, and Alba is a lovely place, again, through Fusion Group, and it's not one I've experienced myself. So, I would say that I would probably stick a little bit more and more to what I can talk to and what I know. But Fusion Group developed properties that had wellness inclusions long before wellness was a trend. Let's say that there's one property in general that has always had a big piece of my heart ever since I stepped there long before I worked with the group, it's now no longer actually part of the group, it's now called TIA Wellness Resort in Da Nang, thhe Fusion Maya property this is a very, very special property just from when you step through the door, the feeling that you get is just one of relaxation, one of calm, people having this sense of care without it being in your face, I don't really know how to describe it. Kerry Newsome: 48:29 Nurturing. Alexandra Hepworth: 48:30 It is. The property was developed long before a lot of properties were actually around it as well. So, it was one by itself. It's a collection of all pool villas. So, your accommodation is very private. They included from the outset a spa experience with every room that was booked and that wasn't something that you could say, "Yes, I want that. Oh no, I don't. Please reduce the rate." That was what you were buying. You were buying an entire experience, whether you decided to use that or not was another matter, but the spa inclusive experience was part of it right from the start and part of the concept. I remember, we had a 99% capture rate at the spa because even people who booked and said, "I'm not a spa person." They left that property as a spa person They'd been looked after and they had these amazing treatments, and they use a different scent of oil every day, depending on the energy of the day of the week and, and all that sort of things, and the rooms were tailored to different treatments. 49:44 Again, a bit ahead of their time with those kinds of experiences and then developed more- the food and beverage aspect as well to complement the spa and wellness and feeling. I think that that was so something unique for Vietnam at that time. Something that they are still doing very, very well, today, as the resort that they are in now. I know that the general manager there has been there since he was in other positions within the property and has also grown up with that property. So many of the staff have stayed there and been there because of that nurturing feeling that is not only there for the guests, but the way that the property is run, in terms of looking after their peace and wellness. Well, I think that that one for me, is a very, very nice experience that can change somebody's mindset, and something that they can potentially keep with them long after they've left the country. Kerry Newsome: 50:50 That was similar for me to the Alba experience, as I felt like I was treated as an individual. The experience that I had and was tailored to me, it was very holistic, including massage, including meditations and purifications, the landscape and scenery there alone is just delicious, the food you're eating is very carefully orchestrated to what you want to achieve, and you set objectives around what you want to achieve in your stay. Then you've got these beautiful bungalows that are just making you feel luxurious, just by spending time in them. So you're right, there is wellness, and there's spas and I think the whole world is reevaluating just how we label and how we describe these experiences. I think, coming from Australia, Bali was it. As far as you went to Bali, where now I think, Southeast Asia has become more developed, and in particular, Vietnam is really trying to lift their game in that wellness nurturing space. They do it very easily, because their personalities per se lend themselves to that in the first instance. 52:21 I think wellness and sustainable travel and social enterprise, these are all subjects which are very hyper out there, but not very well explained. And sometimes people can get in misunderstood when they say, "Well, that really wasn't what I expected. That should be just a spa." We're not talking about just having a massage, and all you get is spa treatment. There's got to be lots more individualization about it, and specialties. And I think Vietnam is on the cusp of education, also in the hospitality sector, and also in wellness. So, I got to speak to some really interesting people that are going into hotels and developing schemes and programs that the hotels are going to include that are going to offer these specialties because they bringing that talent and that talent pool to those hotels, which just wasn't there before. But certainly, no one was sitting on their hands during COVID. People were thinking ahead and planning ahead. So, Vietnam still has got a long way to go with waste management and lots of things like that. But haven't we all? Look, I wanted to finish off with a particular place and some properties that you mentioned that I didn't know about. So, I love learning and hearing about new places. 54:06 So, you mentioned Hồ Tràm? Alexandra Hepworth: 54:09 Yeah, so Hồ Tràm is an area with about two hours’ drive out of Ho Chi Minh City, and a great beach option, in my opinion for people who maybe are a little bit short on time. Kerry Newsome: 54:25 That's what I like about it. Alexandra Hepworth: 54:25 People who want to play in it. It doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't really take too much organization. One property that I really like down there is The Meliá . Meliá Hồ Tràm property. It has hotel rooms as well as beautiful villas as well where you can go with a group of friends or with families or for honeymooners or couples so it has a bit of everything and it's quite an expensive resort. So even though there's quite a number of rooms there, it still feels quite individual as well, which is always a nice thing because you don't want to feel like you're on top of many other people. I think in terms of the location, it's fantastic for something a little bit different, maybe a weekend getaway. Maybe a couple of days add on to Saigon because I mean if you can get there by 12 o'clock and leave two days later at 12 o'clock, you've had fantastic experience, great room, good food and beverage, you've been at the beach, you've done your watersports activities you've been to the spa, you've done all those things to help relax and enjoy and it's so super close to Saigon, that it really is a waste not to add it, I think. There are also a few other developments happening down. There is an InterContinental property down there as well. So, there are brands there. I do think that it offers a nice alternative to other more traditional beach destinations that have been used in the past like Mui Ne, for example, which also has its own charm, but getting there is not so easy, it takes a lot longer. Yeah, so I think it is an alternative and a nice quick beach trip, then for me, I enjoyed going there. Kerry Newsome: 54:49 Since people jump straight into going to Cần Thơ and during the Mekong Delta. In my experience, I haven't had an alternative like this, only two hours away, easy to get to, as you say, to hire a driver and get there and get a quick getaway. That sounds terrific. Alexandra Hepworth: 56:48 The golf down there as well. Da Nang is also another fantastic destination but close to Ho Chi Minh City, then Hồ Tràm is a great option. Kerry Newsome: 56:59 So, just to wrap up as I'm kind of mindful of the time. 57:10 We’ve got to talk about value. We've talked about some big name brands, I wish they were advertising on this show, by the way, but if we are talking about that, and when we then want to compare those brands, as far as, value for money perspective, if you stay in an InterContinental in Europe, or if you stay in Vietnam, can you speak to that a little bit. I felt from you that, that was kind of worth mentioning. Alexandra Hepworth: 57:41 Yeah, no, look, I think it's really something to note as well that your money goes a long way in Vietnam and in Southeast Asia in general, but obviously, really talking to Vietnam. Through AZA as well, I mean, we have many, many high-end clients who are loyal members with Four Seasons or with the Park Hyatt brand or with the Rosewoods and that level and they are used to paying top dollar for those experiences. When quoting the high end product that is available in Vietnam, people are very surprised by the rate that they can get a Park Hyatt there, for example, versus say, a Park Hyatt in Europe or in the US. I think that it is something very big to note because those luxury experiences are there through the brands and through local experiences as well. I mean, like I said, a couple of my favorite experiences that a luxury just because you can't get them anywhere else is sitting on the street or going for a local barbecue or something like that, that we haven't really touched on but to be in these luxurious, high end properties, but step out onto the street and be faced with real local life experiences is something that you just can't buy. 59:14 That's very obvious in Saigon, in Ho Chi Minh City and in a property such as the Park Hyatt , for example, which is opulent, it's luxury. It's understated elegance, right in the heart of the action as well. That is something, like I say, that money really can't buy but also the value of that property, for the service, for the hardware, for the food and beverage experience, for the location. You really don't find those price points in many other destinations and when you're used to the prices of those brands. It's nothing except a surprise which is also a fantastic positive for Vietnam and for us in the industry when recommending locations for clients that maybe aren't on the main trail, but somewhere that's been on a bucket list and I guess rounding off what we talked about before, given now that Vietnam has much better air access and great air product. · It has luxury experiences from top to bottom of the country. · It has great service. · It has amazing food. Being able to package all of that now for people to go and experience something that seemed unachievable before, I think it's something that is very nice, and something is very close to my heart having been there for a long time and knowing how incredible the country is, now being able to share that with clients and with people from around the world. Kerry Newsome: 1:00:55 You've just kind of summed up the reason why I do this podcast. Because I feel the same as you Alexandra. I think it is hard to explain to people to appreciate that the value is there, those brands are going to offer you that high end luxury, but not with the same price tag. So it doesn't mean that you're going to get a diminished level of product, you're going to get that and plus more, and that along with fantastic street food, the people, right up to fine dining. You've got watersports that you can enjoy, from kite surfing to all of that stuff. I want to ask you this question. I've been dying to ask this question of you until right at the end, I'm going to add it in. So why would you go to Vietnam instead of maybe Thailand or Phuket or Koh Samui. Because I'm sure, if you're talking to people and you're wrapping up products, they're going to ask for your suggestions. So why would you go to Vietnam versus one of those? Alexandra Hepworth: 1:02:12 I mean, I think, for me to be to be very, very open and honest, I think you get a very genuine experience in Vietnam, I think that the people are so welcoming. They really have this sense of caring for people and wanting to look after them and serving, you know, serving people and also allowing you into their homes and their lives and their culture because they are also very, very proud people. And they want to share that with more of the world than they can by themselves, and they really embrace people coming and showing an interest in the country, and they go above and beyond for you without even realizing that they're doing that. I think that, that understated eagerness to please and that genuine courtesy of care is something that I haven't seen in many other places, if any, to the level that I felt it in Vietnam and the level that I know is possible there. So, I think for me, it's that genuine, real, authentic experience that I don't think- Kerry Newsome: 1:03:42 In many places... I agree with you totally. I think just going that extra mile in service, whilst I live in a very developed country, when I've got to go to a hotel and I'm paying a really excessive amount, and I'm not getting it, I really struggle. I go, "My goodness!" I've just paid you know, $500 a night for a room basically, with no extra service, no niceties, no nothing, not even a feeling like you want me here. Sometimes I feel like I'm an inconvenience coming into this hotel, and I'm paying that $500 a night. So that does make it difficult after you've had the experiences like you and I have in Vietnam because you do use it as the bar like it's your marker against every other experience. Do I get into trouble with a lot of people, who say, "Kerry, if you say, it's not as good as I'd get in Vietnam." I’ll … I do that all the time. Alexandra Hepworth: 1:04:52 We are very lucky that we get to experience places like that. You are exactly right. We do get spoiled also. So, it does set the bar very high for other destinations. Kerry Newsome: 1:05:05 Look, Alexandra, just want to say a really big thank you for coming on the show, I think everyone's going to have some really good examples to have a think about, obviously I'm going to put all your details, so people can reach out to you separately and do some planning maybe with you around some of these experiences and locations and just great to get your insights and spend some time with you. Alexandra Hepworth: 1:05:36 Oh, thank you very much for the invite. I really appreciate it. Kerry Newsome: 1:05:48 I can't let you go just yet, I just wanted to tell you a little bit about the eBook that I released in December 22, called Book, Pack & Stay: Travel Guide to Vietnam. It's available on Amazon. It's a very different style of travel guidebook in the sense that it's not a destination guidebook, it's more about the things that you need to look for when you are booking your tour, thinking about the kind of trip that you want to design. When you're sitting down with a travel agent, or you're looking to do it yourself online, you've given some thought to the kinds of experiences that you want to have, because depending on what time of year, and those destinations that you choose, you really do need to manage your expectations a little bit. So, time wise, you've got enough time to enjoy it all. And you know, you've got the right weather in the right conditions, we talk about in the book about what to pack, the right kind of apps and bits of research that will help you in enjoying the trip and being well prepared to enjoy the trip. I don't know. So many times I've seen people with the wrong shoes or the wrong clothes, or just feeling the heat and some of these things can be managed so much better with a little bit of insight. 1:07:23 Then of course, you stay what to expect, you're going to trip over Wise, you're going to see 1000s of motorbikes, and just I hope that guide book is going to help you understand that, get it in context. And some tips and hints on just being able to make your stay so much more enjoyable. So that's the Book, Pack & Stay: Travel Guide to Vietnam. It's a nice easy price of $4.99. So, not a huge expense. You'd have it on your phone, and you're always going to be able to interact with that with the links to various apps, videos, podcasts, and of course, Amazon is going to allow you to do that very easily. So, Book, Pack & Stay: Travel Guide to Vietnam. Get your copy as soon as you can. And please send me any feedback or suggestions as I will be updating this version later in the year, because Vietnam is just that country. It's evolving fast. I want to make sure I get you the information you need that's relevant at the time. Thank you very much. Note – Important links for brands mentioned in the Podcast 1. The Fusion Group 2. Caravelle Saigon 3. Hyatt Regency 4. Sofitel Legend Metropole Hanoi 5. The Vietage Train 6. Anantara Hotel Group 7. InterContinental 8. Four Seasons 9. JW Marriott 10. Rosewood Group 11. The Regent 12. Six Senses 13. Meliá 14. Book, Pack & Stay: Travel Guide to Vietnam

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S4-22 Trekking in Sapa A wide lens view What About Vietnam - S4-22 A wide lens view of trekking in Sapa [00:00:00] Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to What About Vietnam. Today we're going to be talking about a really interesting area called Sapa. Now if you don't know anything about Sapa, Sapa is located in the north western region of Vietnam. It is an overnight train trip from Hanoi or overnight by bus. And it's just the first point of contact I would think for people coming to Vietnam that want to have a look into the mountainous regions, the very scenic rice terraced fields of Vietnam. Sapa is definitely your first go to place. Today I'm joined with Jack Taylor and Jack's going to take us through this region, the Hoang Lien Son Mountains. And we're going to talk about trekking in this region. He's done some serious trekking and as you're going to see with his cinematography, which is the focus of his trip, you're going to get some really great handy information and tips if you are thinking of going trekking in the Sapa region. The other aspect is he talks about his interaction with the various hill tribes such as the Hmong, the Tay and the Dao. And I will include the link to his YouTube channel which is where you're going to actually see the fruits of his labour I guess. Jack's had an interesting career living abroad. He's lived in Spain for three years, China for four and Thailand for four. Now residing in Vietnam and doing some teaching. He says he decided to start a travel YouTube channel. One of the main reasons he says for doing this was he felt that a lot of the videos out there on travel are definitely featuring the travel destination but they're a lot about the person who's taking the videos rather than the area and he wants to focus on the people, the places, the food and the culture that he visits. And that's what really kind of attracted me to bring him on this show because I love his approach and I love his respect and his mutual love of Vietnam and the people. So I think for those trekkers out there this is definitely the show for you. Let's welcome Jack to the program. Thank you very much for having me. Look we're going to be talking about a couple of places in Vietnam that I've really wanted to get a little bit deeper into and that's a place called Sapa and another place called Ninh Binh. But before I jump into that, Jack tell us how you found yourself in Vietnam. Why Vietnam? [00:00:00] Kerry Newsome: Welcome to the what about Vietnam podcast? Great to have you on the show. [00:00:08] Jack Taylor: Thank you very much for having me. [00:00:10] Kerry Newsome: Look, we're gonna be talking about a couple of places in Vietnam that I've really wanted to get a little bit deeper into, and that's a place called Sapa and another place called Ninh Binh. But before I jump into that, Jack, tell us how you found yourself in Vietnam. Why Vietnam? [00:00:32] Jack Taylor: Why not Vietnam? I've been there twice now. This is my second trip. I think it's one of the best places to visit anywhere in the world that I've been. And one of the most interesting places in Asia. So I l I've lived in Asia now for the last seven years. Three years in China and four years, so four years in China, and now four years in Thailand. This most recent trip we had a long holiday, the world's opening up again. So I finally managed to get out of Thailand. And this is my first, this is my first trip outside of home that I've been to and outside of Thailand for four years now. So Vietnam was the first place where I went to. [00:01:09] Kerry Newsome: It's an easy place to fall in love with I totally get that. And I think what I appreciate most about how you see Vietnam is definitely through the eyes of your camera and your cinematography. And for everyone listening, you're going to be able to see some of the work that Jacks. Created because it inspired me to talk to him. And I'm really grateful that he's here on the show to actually talk about that filming and those experiences. Because when you do see the video, you go, oh gosh, that place is just so wow. It's just got so much. Wow. So let's start with Sapa and Yeah. Like talk, talk us through. Your journey, your setup, like how did you get prepared for Sapa and what was your kind of first experience of Sarpa? [00:02:04] Jack Taylor: So I went to Sapa after a couple of days in Hanoi. And anyone who's been in Hanoi knows it's a hectic crazy wild city. Almost anywhere is a complete change from that. So you take the "love bus", I take the love bus, a small bus with a compartment with my wife. It was a late an hour, eight hour drive up there. And When you first get there, it's actually a bit intense. The one thing that I didn't like about Sapa that much was that I stepped off the bus and people were hasling me for tours already, hiking, tours. Now this was something I'd already soughted out before. Hate to start with the negatives, but that was the first thing that happens as soon as you get off there. Once I found out way to a hotel and you get a look around the place you realize that it's a really beautiful mountain town. You can see the mountains in the distance and some of the architecture of the town's really nice as well. And I suppose in terms of my setup, my camera setup I didn't know what to expect there. In Hanoi when I made a video there, I was able to do a bit more research. I feel like there's a lots of videos and lots of pictures from Hanoi Sapa, less, slightly less so I was just walking around taking pictures, taking videos of the town center and some of the people in it. [00:03:13] Kerry Newsome: And, I'm glad you brought to everyone's attention just a little bit of that different presence of. Of Hagglers or sellers because they don't actually represent the vast majority of the population there. They're actually a very small group of people that, obviously they need to sell things to, to make money, to feed their families and all the rest of it. But I had a similar. Experience, and I found it quite aggressive. And I was quite shocked because even in places like Hanoi, you can go around the old quarter and you can go around places there, but you never get haggled or I never did to that extent. So I was, that was a bit in my face. I'm thinking, God, aren't I out here in rice fields and the hills are alive kind of thing. But yet I'm getting haggled. [00:04:05] Jack Taylor: Yeah I, like I say, I had a similar experience you'll notice as well with a lot of people. It's strange because I had the town experience before I then did the trekking experience, which we'll talk about in a minute. And my first thought when these people were trying to sell me trekking to is that they're dressed in the traditional outfits. What I now know is a Red black Hmong and at first I thought it was a bit gimmicky, but actually it's not. It is the traditional outfits that you'll see once you go out in the countryside and there's no tourists there. It's the same outfits they wear. So it's, I can imagine some people who never get out of the town maybe are overwhelmed by it or think it's a little bit gimmicky, but actually there is, that is part of the culture. So my idea changed after a while. [00:04:43] Kerry Newsome: It is authentic and you can't get over the intricacy of the costumes that they wear. Sometimes they take up to a year to actually make some of those costumes. But I did a program with a guest, oh, over a year ago now, and we talked about, trying to make sure that you get the right kind of trekking guide and one that does. Or is authentic and you know is gonna give you the best experience, but it's very hard to pick them. When you are the naive tourist and you're arriving there, how do you know which one is the. The good one or the bad one when they're all looking the same. And then when you ultimately go out and they're similarly dressed, but not quite the same attitude. So it's a tough one, but I don't wanna, I don't wanna go too much on it, but I just think it's worth mentioning and doing your homework and getting some guidance before you arrive is definitely. The way to go. So let's separate Sapa out into the town itself because you took us through on your video, a little bit more of the town than I actually spent time on. So maybe share with us a little bit of the town itself. [00:05:59] Jack Taylor: Yeah, it's it's quite a livey little town. Like I said to you earlier on. I expect it to be a really quiet, mountainous town. It's not, it's got quite a lot going on. Lots of restaurants, lots of bars, lots of coffee shops. They've got a large town square. There's, there seem to be lots of shows going on there. They're stage set up. A lot of the tourism in the area is based around the trekking or the, like the ethnic minority villages. But they have a large population within the town as well. And yeah, I thought it was it was very different her to Hanoi in the level of hecticness, but it's also, it maintains that a little bit in the town, but it's a nice contrast at least compared to Hanoi. You can look out even though. It's got, it's, the streets are pretty crazy. You can look out on these beautiful mountains and enjoy that too. [00:06:43] Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and I have two experiences which are. A little bit. The first one's a bit funny in the sense that when my husband and I went there, we kept going down wrong way streets on a bike that we hired. So we kept getting fined by the police who were asking for these amounts of money, which, once again, you know, that kind of went. Kerry, I should know better than this. It was in my very early days of traveling to Vietnam, so I was, yeah, one of the very naive ones. But we learned very quickly that there was a bit of a system going on there. And then in the township, I was desperate to get my hair washed. And this, I went to this hairdresser, and this is before like you're talking about bars and a real happening. The town, like we're talking. 2010 probably that we went. I haven't been back since and the township was really small and not much happening at all. And if you weren't into trekking then, there wasn't a lot to do. So yeah, so I went to this hairdresser and she washed my hair and truly I came out and I looked like. Phyllis Diller If you ever remember the American popular star. My hair was like in went straw. I don’t know what she washed it with, but it was like gasoline or something like that. So it was a bit scary. So getting into the trekking side of it. There is a little bit of small trekking to be done, just very close to the town, which a lot of the tourists do when they just do a very one night stay because they don't have time. So they just do this little meander around and it's quite pretty and it's not too pressing, but what I'm keen to talk. To you about is the treking that you've done quite out of Sapa and the advantages of going out and what to experience there. [00:08:41] Jack Taylor: Trekking is something that I do on a lot of my trips, I think it's probably my favorite to do thing to do when I go to a new country. And I think there's numerous reasons for that. One. You get to see the landscapes, which personally that's something that I'm really interested in seeing especially in Asia. Once you get out of the cities, there's some great mountainous. And really u unique, interesting places to visit. You also get to see and meet the real people. I think people who live in cities all around the world, there's some similarities. Okay. Hanoi is different to London. In many ways, but it's still a city. It's still people who have city life. Once you get out into the countryside, that's a completely different culture. You could argue the real people of a country. So you get to kinda see what life is like in, in a more rural setting. In this case, I went to Trekking for three days with the Red Dao tribe. A woman from the Red Dao Tribe and yeah, she taught us first of all, I was impressed by her level of English cuz she taught us a lot about the surrounding area, how they live and their history. And it was a really fascinating experience. [00:09:47] Kerry Newsome: And I think having the local minority groups. There to give you some advice, give you, and if you've got someone that can give it to you in English, whilst, you can always put a lot into hand gestures and pointing and, but having English speaking. Guides is a really big plus I think in these places, just so that you can get a little bit more information to give context to the region because the minority groups are so interesting when you get into their history and. The role that they've played in all of the wars that have gone on in Vietnam and all sorts of things, and their crafts, their markets, all of that sort of thing. So talk to us a little bit about the level of hiking that is required to get the best experience. Do you have to be, a really good hiker or trekker or, can you just be a hobby one like me? [00:10:49] Jack Taylor: I think there's something for everyone. Maybe I'm a bit of a weirdo, but I would say, I said, give us the hardest one. Give us the hardest track you've got. And once she said, once she's, we got AZ at you on the first day. Do you wanna do the easy way, the hard way? We went probably the hard way. What is it? Is it better? She's it's more beautiful. We said, give us the hard way. Like I said, I've done some treks or like I told you before I've done some treks around the world now I've done some treks in China for multiple day ones, some in Thailand usa. So I've got a bit of experience. However, I think it can still be enjoyed as a hobbyist, like if you just wanna do a half day tour. The first towns we walked to were actually within an hour or two of Sapa town center. They weren't the best towns. But it was still beautiful countryside. You could still really enjoy it. I think there's also options to do day trips to, to the villages and then go on tour walking tours around the villages as well. So if anyone listening who is maybe a bit intimidated by doing a three day trek then you, there are still options for you too. [00:11:51] Kerry Newsome: And. Like I, I'm wanting to drill down a little bit on this because I've spoken to other trekkers and never said, oh, it's only about, 25 Ks or 30 Ks in the total track. And some people might go, what the 20, 25, 30 Ks? I don't walk that in a year. So it's. It's trying to put some reality to it because you've got also weather conditions to consider it. It can get quite warm or conversely it can be quite cold. So talk to us a little bit just about, what sort of fitness level do you think and, have you gotta be an avid walker and go, be able to handle. My experience, you've gotta be able to handle hills, you've gotta have good footwear and you've gotta be able to handle that that just, that change in temperatures, et cetera. [00:12:42] Jack Taylor: Yeah, so on the track I did, I think the first day was 17 kilometers. The second day was 25 and then the final day was 13. So it was pretty intense track, especially that second day. Cuz the second day there was this huge valley. And in the video I'm currently making now I'm doing a more focus video on the trekking, which you haven't seen yet. But there's one day we climb up this giant hill. And then we're already pretty tired. And then we go where we at? Hiking to today. She points through the valley and it [00:13:12] Kerry Newsome: Oh no. [00:13:13] Jack Taylor: and we're like, oh, we're going over there. So that was she didn't tell us that until we got to the top of the hill. It was already too late at that point. But I would say on the trek I did, you gotta be a bit fit. The thing I found that was the most difficult like I say, I bring my cameras everywhere with me, so I've got a whole bag [00:13:31] Kerry Newsome: A lot of gear. [00:13:32] Jack Taylor: My wife will carry that one and I carry both of our clothes, so her clothes and my clothes. So I had this too big of a bag really. And over three days hiking that much, it really dug into my shoulders. So it was my shoulders more than anything that I had trouble with. Don't do it in flip flops is my first piece of advice. Bring at least a pair of trainers. I'd known this is one of the reasons I came to Vietnam and to Sapa, was to do the hiking. So I brought a nice big pair of hiking boots. So if you're gonna do the more extreme end, I'd be prepared. Bring plenty of water that kind of thing. And yeah, I'd probably done a, I've probably would try and get some experience beforehand if you're gonna do the three day one. But like I say, there's options for one day. There's options for two day, that kind of thing. [00:14:16] Kerry Newsome: Yeah. And like I think that's really great advice on the shoe wear, because I've seen some amazing. Options of people that have got off those buses and they're gonna do a two day hike. And when I look at their footwear, I just go, oh, are you kidding me? There is nowhere, there's no traction on them. They've got no concept of the slippery slidy places that they're going to be going and, yeah, crazy isn't it? [00:14:46] Jack Taylor: Yeah. The, it reminds me the first trek I ever did was actually probably the longest one, and I was probably in the worst shape. I was in Columbia, in Latin, in South America, and I did it. I was like, yeah, whatever. I'll do it in these. Plimp soul shoes and I came back, it was five days, I think. I couldn't walk for a week afterwards. Everyone that did the trek, they went on to the next place. I was like, I need to stay in this hostel for a couple of days and just relax. It's the same, it's the same in Vietnam. [00:15:11] Kerry Newsome: Yeah, absolutely. And like I've even done, small climbs, et cetera, when you do Marble Mountain near Danang and places like that, that if you don't, some people try and do it in thongs and I go, Like marble, when it's wet, it's slippery. Like you can just so easily do an ankle or, do some damage that then wrecks your whole holiday. So a really good point. [00:15:39] Jack Taylor: and if you're doing it, if you're doing it out there in the Sapa countryside, if you twist an ankle that you've got a hike, either way, you know you're gonna have to get yourself back to a main road somehow, somewhere. And that wouldn't be fun. [00:15:52] Kerry Newsome: No, and depending on who you've hired as your Trekking guide or the company that you are dealing with, likewise them having someone to, come and get you back where you know they've gotta take on the rest of the group. All these little kind of things can go wrong if you don't put a little bit of thought into it. And some people are just so casual about it. It amazes me that they just take. Thought about it so lightly and not think, gee, I better wear, and even the size of their bags I think, you, you're not gonna take that wheely bag. Like they'll be wheeling a small carry on bag. And I'm thinking are you kidding me? Yeah. So [00:16:38] Jack Taylor: Hundred, a hundred percent. You couldn't have done that on this track. Yeah. It would ditch that bag. That bag would've gone. [00:16:43] Kerry Newsome: Yeah, for sure. Talk to us a little bit about your accommodation during the treking. You've obviously stayed overnight in some home stays. [00:16:53] Jack Taylor: Yeah. I was surprised by the quality of them actually. The houses were really quite nice. The village it's very rural. So don't get me wrong, it's not a modern place, but like the quality of the houses, they were well built. We had a bed. I wasn't expecting a bed actually. Like I say, I've done some treks in other places, even northern Thailand. And usually when you stay with the hill tribes there it's a wooden house, which it was here as well, but it. Very much like on stilts. Like it very much looks like it's made in the middle of the jungle and you're sleeping on a mat on the floor. So that's what I'd expected. And then we got there and it was a fairly comfortable bed. It was a bit hard and but that, I can't complain. The quality of the house was nice. The food they cooked was absolutely delicious. So that was probably the highlight. They cooked food, all of it made from local ingredients, cuz they're agricultural people. They, it's, everything was grown locally. I remember they had spring rolls, some stir fried beef lots of vegetables. That was absolutely delicious. And probably the most unique thing about the Red Dao is they do this herbal bath. I dunno if you've heard about the herbal baths. [00:18:00] Kerry Newsome: Oh yeah. [00:18:01] Jack Taylor: And it was again, This was a lot nicer than I was expected. So we got the accommodation and then you offered it costs a little bit more. I can't remember exactly how much it was but it wasn't too expensive and it was definitely worth doing. And they run this herbal bath. I'm not entirely sure what was in the herbal bath, but it's in like a barrel. It's not a bath, it's in a barrel. So me and my wife, we had two separate barrels. It was filled with hot water and it was one of the best things you can do after a long day's hike. When you got all that sweat and all that grime on you, you're in. I wouldn't want it to, I wouldn't want think about how dirty the water would get once out once we'd been in there. But it was one of the best things to do and relax after the hike. [00:18:40] Kerry Newsome: Yeah. Now I've had a guest on the show who traveled around Vietnam with social enterprise headset looking for experiences. Where social enterprise played a role and she found herself in Sapa and in a Red Dao village. And she took that bath and she described it equally as pleasurable and as relieving for those sore muscles. After doing that trek it's interesting just about the accommodation. I get very mixed views about. Home stays an accommodation in those remote areas. Some people say they're really great and very obviously homely, but comfortable enough. And then there's some people who just can't see themselves staying that it's just beyond their comfort zone. So it's interesting. Do I dare [00:19:34] Jack Taylor: that. [00:19:34] Kerry Newsome: ask about toilets? Can you tell, are they western toilets? [00:19:39] Jack Taylor: It did have a Western toilet. Again, I was surprised about that it had western toilet. It did have a shower room, so if you don't wanna do the herbal bath, it had a whole shower room. Yeah I was surprised of the quality and, but I'm the kind of person. Who is quite comfortable with bare bones. Like I say, one of the things I like doing about the hiking is you get to go experience local cultures. The, my only question is if you'd stayed in the non-home stay house, would it have had all that? My guess is probably not. My guess is this was made up for tourists for their comfort zone. So this is Tain Village and I can find you the link for the Homestay I stayed so you can attach it at the bottom, but this one was very nice. This one was very nice. But I also think there's kind of two types of people when it comes to backpacking around Vietnam or other places in Asia. It's some people who. To go there because they can probably afford to places that are more comfortable and maybe more luxurious than what they're used to. It's obviously cheaper than backpacking around Europe, right? If you're backpack around Europe, you're probably staying in cheaper hotels, basic stuff. But if you go to Vietnam you can pay the same price and have. Like really luxurious places. I think there's that kind of person and there's the kind of person more like me who likes the wild side of it, who likes to see the things that you wouldn't be able to see in Europe or other places around the world. And that's what you'll get when you're staying in the villages. Like it is. It is very rural. I don't I can imagine some people, I imagine my family. If they visited, they'd be out their comfort zone. So it is something to make sure you would be comfortable with beforehand. But to me personally, it's one of the most fascinating things you can do. [00:21:20] Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and I think you're right, and I've got both in my audience, so I've got some people who, yeah, they can handle a little bit of raw a little bit of, discomfort to experience that. Authenticity within a region. And then there's some that just say, no that's not me. And, horses for courses like that's fair enough. But what I wanna do in the show, in, in what I do with people is I try and give them the reality side of it, not the fluff and bubble I want to talk about. So you go there with expectations that can be met, so you don't go there with Unrealistic expectations and then get disappointed or the other way around. Talk to us a little bit about how long you think is a good stay there? If people are planning to do this, what would you recommend as far as how long they should give themselves to, to have a really good experience? [00:22:16] Jack Taylor: I would say possibly even a night in Sapa town is enough and a homestay. So I would say minimum two nights, minimum. Two nights. If you are gonna do the treking part, like I say, mine was three days, two nights. So I think I was there four nights total. Like everywhere in Vietnam, I wish I had more time. I would've loved to have stayed in other home stays and there was some things in the town that I didn't check out. Mount Fanispan is one of the, one of the highlights there that I didn't actually have time for. So you could stay longer. I would say minimum two. Before moving on to either Ha Giang or maybe back to Hanoi. [00:22:55] Kerry Newsome: And did you? Did you choose a particular time of year that you wanted to go to Sapa? I'm thinking about your cinematography side of it. Did you say, no, I want to go, when it's this time of year because of [00:23:10] Jack Taylor: My job as an English teacher, so I'm an English teacher in Thailand, so it was when I got the holiday is when is how I decided it. However one thing to note I went after the harvest and the good thing about that, about trekking in that time was it was quite nice, whether it wasn't too hot. On one of the days it was cloudy, which was quite nice. It was nice and cool. The other days it was a bit sunny, which was also nice. It wasn't too hot though. If you come earlier in the year though, you can see the rice patties actually growing. So it's nice and green and as the people working in the fields, so especially what I've seen from a lot of photographers and from some other people who've been there making videos if you go at that time of year, you get to see For people work in the fields in the traditional outfits, and that's must be a beautiful site to see. I didn't get to see that. However, I think the Treking part of it was just that little bit better. Because it was mostly dry, but even I stepped into a couple of puddles and then I had my up to my ankle in covered in dirt. If you've gone closer to the rainy season, I think you're gonna get a lot grimier. It's, the trekking probably gonna be that bit more difficult and I've heard that there can be leeches. So you have to be careful. The leeches [00:24:25] Kerry Newsome: Yeah. So what month did you go? [00:24:28] Jack Taylor: I was beginning of October is when I went. [00:24:31] Kerry Newsome: Beginning of [00:24:32] Jack Taylor: And there was no leeches. [00:24:33] Kerry Newsome: bonus. [00:24:35] Jack Taylor: Yeah. [00:24:36] Kerry Newsome: So is there anything else you'd like to add for everyone listening just about trekking, Sapa would like, to make sure that we get everything out there in, in our chat. So is there anything I haven't mentioned or should have mentioned? [00:24:51] Jack Taylor: Yeah. One thing that I think might be interesting that we haven't mentioned is some of the wildlife that you'll see out when you're hiking. So the main one is the water buffalo. I'd never seen water buffalo that up close before. I've lived in Southeast Asia for four years now, but there we, there's so many water buffalo they live. They live and they work in the fields. And I was a little nervous at first because I remember the first time I came to Vietnam I was doing a bike tour in Hoi An and we, as we were passing the water buffalo, the guide I think he was taking the mick outta me, he told me that the water buffalo, they don't like the white people cuz we smell like milk. We smell like milk. And they don't like milk. They only like Vietnamese smells. I think he said they smell a foot. So he said, you gotta be careful around the water buffalo. Now our guide [00:25:39] Kerry Newsome: no, that's terrible. Oh, [00:25:42] Jack Taylor: cuz I was walking past the, we had to walk pretty closely by them and they get scared, right? So they begin to run away. So I was like, this guy told me that they don't like the smell of us. And she said, no, that's not true. He's pulling your leg. [00:25:53] Kerry Newsome: Oh, that's [00:25:53] Jack Taylor: on top of that, [00:25:54] Kerry Newsome: I'm gonna share that one. That's excellent. [00:25:57] Jack Taylor: On top of that our guide may wander. She got worried at one point. There was a big snake. We just missed it. It s slivered down the hill. But she said it was about this big. I'm, I know about 10 centimeter thick. She didn't really say how long, but it was in the grass and that's s slivered off, so you gotta be a little bit careful. She said some of them are poisonous, but most part they're okay. [00:26:19] Kerry Newsome: I wish you wouldn't have told me about the snake bit. Now I might have to cut that out because like I'm terrified of reptile. So I yeah that's good to know for everyone listening. And especially good for me to know in case I wanna do that trek. In the future. Beware of reptiles. Good to know. Jack, that's really wonderful. Thank you for sharing with us. I'm going to make sure that I put all the links to your fabulous footage that you've done. I really love your work, so we'll make sure that everyone can see that. And yeah. Just want thank you for being on the show [00:26:56] Jack Taylor: Thank you.

S4-05 Nha Trang 10 best things What About Vietnam S4-5 – Nha Trang Kerry Newsome: [00:00:00] Xin chau and Welcome to What About Vietnam? Today, we are taking a deep dive into the seaside city of Nha Trang. I'm doing that with the very talented and masterful Colm Hutchinson, and I say that because he really knows Nha Trang. He's lived there for the last 12 years. He's an Irishman. He met his wife there and he and his two children have settled there and absolutely love it. Now the reason why Colm adds an extra level or depth to this is that he runs a very successful digital media company called Halo Digital Media. In that role, he is putting together video photography, virtual tours for hotels, working with resorts, tourism organisations and various brands. This gives him some really great access and insights into a plethora of places and things to do. When we originally decided to do this together, I said, you know, maybe we could come up with ten really good things about Nha Trang. I actually got 11 and we had a bit of a laugh about that, but he was able to really give some insights into the town where I visited in 2014. But because so much has happened since 2014, I clearly really wasn't up to date with everything that Nha Trang has to offer. Kerry Newsome: [00:01:44] In those 11 things, you're going to hear about mud baths, you're going to hear about all kinds of nice day trips, island hopping cable car stuff for kids and some really great things to do. I think if you're considering going to Nha Trang, this is really the episode for you. It's a very short airplane ride from Ho Chi Minh City, so definitely add it to your list. It has suffered greatly during COVID because it really is a tourism city. So, you know, I really want you to enjoy it and get everything you can out of it. Please check out the transcript at the end of the show on the website. What about Vietnam? Also, I've got a lovely special offer that I've been able to put together at the Movenpick Cameron Resort. So you can check that out as well but let's welcome Colm to the show. Colm Welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Great to have you on the show! Colm Hutchinson: [00:02:57] Hi, Kerry. Thanks for having me. It's nice to be on your show instead of listening to it. Kerry Newsome: [00:03:04] Well, that's good to hear! Colm Hutchinson: [00:03:06] Yeah, I've been following it for a while. I’ve listened to some of your interesting guests you've had on. So it's nice to be involved. Thanks for having me on. Kerry Newsome: [00:03:18] Oh, I'll take that. Thanks very much. We're going to be talking about a place which I visited like back in about 2014. We're talking about Nha Trang, where you herald from. You know, you've been there, I understand, 12 years, and you run a digital media company and I feel really good about you being on the show because you've had 12 years in this place. You've obviously seen a lot of changes and you kind of know the environment from what it was like before COVID, and here we are sitting coming out of COVID. For me and everyone listening, I think this is going to give you a really good heads up as to the new New Nha Trang or the new Nha Trang in recovery and what it's going to look like into the future. I asked Colm if he wouldn't mind doing, I know it sounds a bit chintzy in some ways, but the top ten things to do. Let's face it, we look at a place and we think, how long do we need to spend to enjoy that place? What are the really good top things that we should choose to do? You can sometimes waffle along and you actually miss the great places. So, Colm I haven't really asked this question of you. Are we going to start top to bottom like the top best and then to the least or are they just random? Colm Hutchinson: [00:05:04] I think pretty random from my side because I don't really have a list to rate them according to how good or not. I guess not even so much the top ten things to do, but maybe the top ten best things about Nah Trang, from a Westerner who lives here and who sees a lot of tourists coming and going. From someone who's seen the city and the region change a lot over the last 12 years that I've been here. So I guess the best thing that I enjoy or think about most about living here is the weather. So obviously Vietnam has a nice climate in general, but not all destinations are created equally in terms of the seasons. You have some places like in Hanoi, where in the north you will get very cold and you have definitely four seasons and other places, say in Danang where you get a lot of storms and a lot of inclement weather, that's quite unpredictable. Whereas in Trang, I think we're blessed with getting a lot of sunshine and they call it the city of 300 days of sunshine per year. I'm not sure if it's exactly 300, but we do seem to get a lot and we have a very short rainy season which generally only lasts for one or two months. At the end of the year, from November to sometimes into January or October to December, depending on the season. So all year round we have a very nice balmy 30 degree temperature ranging between 28 to 35 degrees. This month, June will be the hottest of the year. So it'll actually be quite hot. We're a seaside city, so we get a nice breeze coming in off the sea and we're protected by the mountains and the bay. We don't really suffer from bad weather too much. It's one of the things I like, and I'm from Ireland myself, so we get a lot of rain back there. It's definitely a nice change of scenery for me to get sunshine all the time. Kerry Newsome: [00:07:02] I like that because I think it gives people a wide berth of time so they can pick pretty much any time of the year. You know, Nha Trang is going to be the best place to visit. So that's good to know. Just off the bat, I think that's a really good number one. All right. What have we got now is number two Colm? Colm Hutchinson: [00:07:24] Well, I think based on that, because we're a sunshine seaside city and the triangle is pretty famous for its beaches. We have the main beach that runs all the way along the city and is just called Naturang Beach, which is a mecca for all of the tourists who stay at any of the city hotels. They can pop down to the beach to sunbathe, to swim in the water. There's quite a lot of restaurants, dining and entertainment venues along the beach and just outside the city. We have a very small beach called Home Charm, which is where a lot of the expats would go because they kind of avoid the touristy areas and they like to sit on that small beach. There's also very good surfing there at certain times of the year, and it wouldn't be as good as the surf in Australia, but good enough for the enthusiasts over here. If you go just outside the city, either north or south, close to the airport, we have a beach called Long Beach, which as the name suggests is very long. Colm Hutchinson: [00:08:27] Long Beach is kind of a quiet hideaway beach full of very traditional wooden, structured restaurants that serve up local seafood. It's a great place to go on the weekends just to chill out with your family and get some nice seafood. It's got a beautiful blue, crystal clear water that's very shallow. So it's a good place to bring the kids. If you go further north outside of the city, there's a beach called Chocolate, which is probably the nicest beach in this whole stretch of the province, and it's around 60 kilometers outside Trang. So it's definitely a day trip destination, but it's just an amazing looking beach. There's a couple of small homestay style resorts where you can stay there for one night and then wake up for the sunrise. There is a magical, absolutely gorgeous experience that I've done once or twice and something I'd highly recommend as a day trip. So yeah, I think the beaches are definitely another key attraction to Tuna Trang. Kerry Newsome: [00:09:32] Can I just ask for people that are considering beaches as part of their holiday experience? Do you get things like jellyfish or sharks or, you know things like that, I know people might be concerned about? Colm Hutchinson: [00:09:52] Certainly no sharks. I've never heard or seen of a shark attack or even sharks spotted in any of the waters. As for jellyfish, I've never encountered them on the main beach. You do sometimes get them on Long Beach and on the islands, but in very small quantities, and they're not particularly venomous or dangerous. Certainly none of the seriously dangerous jellyfish that you would encounter, say, in Australia, like the box jellyfish or the man o’ war. I've seen some small jellyfish, but I've never been stung. So it wouldn't be a big concern, and certainly no sharks or any dangerous fish or animals. Kerry Newsome: [00:10:36] Something else I remember about the water is it's always a pretty good temperature. Sometimes in Australia you can go into the ocean and it is freezing. So it's got to be really hot on the outside to make you want to dive in that water. The water I found on the beaches in Trang when I was there was kind of like a bath. It was really temperate. Colm Hutchinson: [00:11:00] Definitely like a bath. Yeah, it's beautiful outside. Outside of the rainy season, like I said, which is October to December or November to January. The water can be a little bit cold during that season, but the rest of the year, it's like a nice warm bath. Exactly. The main beach tends to be a little waiver. The waves tend to be a little bigger than some of the other outside beaches. They are rarely so big that you can't swim there and there are no big what you call them drags or pulls, you know, riptides. There's not too many dangerous trips as well, so it's pretty safe. Kerry Newsome: [00:11:38] I think that's also good to add in because, you know, people travelling with families I think want to know that their kids can kind of wade out and it's beautiful, nice soft sand. It's just like a giant swimming pool. That's how I felt it was anyway. Colm Hutchinson: [00:11:54] Yeah. Particularly Long Beach or by, as the locals call it and it has a very long stretch where the water is really shallow. So it's great for kids. I guess then from the beaches, a lot of people love to do day trips and island hopping. So there's quite a few islands and islets just off Nha Trang and I guess the most famous being Vin Pearl , which is basically Vin Wonderland. It started as a kind of an amusement park but has since developed into a huge complex, almost like a Vietnamese version of Disneyland or Korea Studios. It's got multiple different types of accommodation from Vin Pearl Hotel to Vin Pearl luxury, lots of villas where people can stay. Then it's got a massive amusement park and Zoo Oceanographic Museum and lots of games and activities for the kids. It's got 3-D dance shows, and the whole thing is kind of modeled on a European village or a Disneyland style village, I guess you would say. It's a place where you can go buy a ticket and take a beautiful cable car ride across the bay and then spend the whole day in Vin Pearl. Or some families will choose to book overnight or book a weekend there. I think a day trip is enough, but you can get a beautiful cable car over and then you're all entertained. It's taken care of for the day. The second island is Monday, which is where most people will go and do diving. Nha Trang isn't like the Caribbean or Mauritius or one of those places to go diving and see the exceptional, beautiful waters and lots of marine life. It is known as a place where a lot of people like to come and learn how to dive. It's kind of like trying diving, getting their first taste of life underwater and maybe doing an open water course. There's definitely a lot of nice coral, a lot of eels and lots of other wildlife, but nothing too spectacular, I'd say. It is very, very popular for people to go take a diving trip when they get here. Kerry Newsome: [00:14:01] Can I just ask about diving? I know you have paddy divers there. I've had Jeremy Stein on the show. Yeah, there's just one thing I wanted to check. Some islands, I know certainly, are the charm islands off Hoi An. There are certain times of the year that the water gets quite cloudy. Does that happen in Nha Trang? Colm Hutchinson: [00:14:28] Yes. The water, I'm not a very experienced diver, but I do know that visibility tends to be lower during the rainy season. Yes. Kerry Newsome: [00:14:36] So that's around October, November, isn't it? Colm Hutchinson: [00:14:38] Exactly. Again, because we have a very short rainy season, the optimum time for clear water diving is much, much longer here in that it's probably around nine or ten months. Whereas in Hawaii, I think the weather wouldn't be as good. So it might be that you'd have less available time to go diving. Kerry Newsome: [00:14:56] Yeah, and they just don't operate. They shut down during those months. They just don't take you out. Colm Hutchinson: [00:15:01] Because Kerry Newsome: [00:15:02] It's just not worth it. Colm Hutchinson: [00:15:02] For sure. So there's that for diving. There's some other islands such as Orchid Island, which is, you know, just an island with lots of nice plants and some animals. There are some little places to chill out on a kind of coconut style beach, do some stand up paddle boarding or canoeing. So a lot of families like to take a day trip out there. You travel maybe 20 minutes outside the city. Then there's a few companies that have these nice boats that they bring you over and canoe style speedboats and they bring you over for the day. You can just chill out there with the family, and it's a nice way to spend a day. I mean, I like to bring my kids sometimes at the weekend, just the day to get out and get off the mainland and out into the city. From the city, if you go outside and I try to go further north, definitely as a day trip, this is towards your beach, which is the very beautiful beach I told you about. On the wa Colm Hutchinson: [00:16:06] A lot of people don't even think about where our salt comes from and our sea salt, but just outside, not trying to have these beautiful salt fields. Where the locals will basically gather and store the salt before it's cleaned and shipped off to the salt suppliers. It's a very nice place for photographers to go to because when the sun comes up and the workers are working, they tend to start very early in the morning around 4 a.m. Just as the sunrise is coming up, you can get incredible photos of the sunrise over the salt fields with the workers in their traditional conical hats. They're covered from head to toe to protect them from the sun. It kind of creates those, I guess, iconic images you see of Vietnam. If you travel past the salt fields, maybe 20, 25 minutes, there's an island called Diep Son which I'll give you the name so you can put it on the screen. It's unique in that it's got two islands and it's got a sandbar that connects both islands. So at low tide, you can actually walk along the sea through the eye. Kerry Newsome: [00:17:09] So it looks like you're walking on water? Colm Hutchinson: [00:17:11] Pretty much, yeah. The water is only around two feet deep at low tide and you can walk from one island to the next. Right in the centre of the ocean, because it's, you know, it's probably a couple of kilometers off the mainland. So people love to go there just because it's unique, and it makes for great Instagram photos. It's a place I'd recommend for a day trip. If you could fit in the salt fields and maybe even your beach at the same time, it could be a nice overnight stay. Kerry Newsome: [00:17:41] And Colm, would you? You've talked about getting to these places. You know, something's like 60 kilometers out or whatever. What is the best form of transport to do that or how should people best arrange to do that, do that with a fixed tour or just get, you know, a grab car or a taxi or what's the best way? Colm Hutchinson: [00:18:02] That's your hotel or resort. So there are a lot of chain hotels and resorts, the big brands like the Intercoms and the Sheraton and no hotels and even the smaller hotels and resorts, they all will have a tour desk. From there you can usually arrange a trip to any of these places, and if you want something more custom, you can order a private car. So there's a lot of private cars with a tour guide that will take you out for the day and they'll all speak good English and the prices will be quite reasonable. They will take you to say, if I want to go to the Salt Fields and to Euclid Beach, you could rent the car for a day for, you know, maybe $60, $70 or maybe $100 with the tour guide. They will take you out, but generally, you can book all of this at the tour desk in your hotel, and they'll arrange it all for you. This includes your tickets and transfers and takes you there at the best time of the day. So I'd probably recommend doing that if you're not too familiar with Vietnam. Kerry Newsome: [00:18:59] I think that's worth mentioning. You know, if you've got a small family or you've got people that have got some issues with mobility or things like that. It's just best to get ahead of the curve by organizing that. As you say, the area is so used to tourists, so English is pretty well spoken. We are sitting here post COVID and whilst there's been lots of news about places shutting, the places that we're talking about, you're speaking from a level that these places are now coming back on. In other words, these tours are starting to open up again. I want to make sure that timing wise, we're just kind of keeping pace with just how Vietnam is opening and recovering. Colm Hutchinson: [00:19:51] It's tricky in the sense that Nha Trang, I guess more so than a lot of other cities in Vietnam, is predominantly a tourist destination. So it has been very badly affected by COVID and in the sense that when Vietnam closed its borders and for over two years, we had no international tourists. Domestic tourism isn't enough to make up for the supply of hotels and tour guides and activities. So we definitely have suffered a lot. In the last, I guess three months since Vietnam opened, I can definitely see some life returning to the city. A lot of the hotels that I work with are starting their marketing programs again and they're starting to welcome guests. We have international flights coming in this month from Korea and Singapore, and I think more flights are going to be added over the summer. I can definitely see a lot of places that had been previously closed down, such as restaurants or shops are all starting to renovate and remodel and I see new restaurants starting to spring up. So while we haven't fully recovered and the tourist area itself, which would have previously been very vibrant and active, it’s still quiet. I guess you would say, not deserted, but quite lonely is all starting to kind of wake up again. It's not going to be an immediate process, but it's definitely coming online relatively quickly. The places that I've spoken about, such as a Vin Pearl resort, would be fully open. You can still do island tours and boat diving tours. You can still go to the salt fields and to your beach and you can go see Gibson Island, as well, because domestic tourism has been quite strong in Vietnam over the last couple of years outside of the lockdown period. Kerry Newsome: [00:21:46] So the good thing about a place like Nha Trang is natural beauty, like beaches and islands and all the rest of it. They don't have an open for visitors sign on them. You know, they exist whether visitors come to them or not, don't they? So, you know, the water's still there, the corals are still there. Fortunately, the beauty is still there. Probably in some places I feel like it's kind of had some nourishment and some replenishment. You know, it kind of comes alive some of the forests and things like that have kind of reopened. So when you go to Nha Trang, sure, there might not be crowds, but maybe that's perfect. Colm Hutchinson: [00:22:33] I would definitely agree. I mean, before COVID one of the, I guess, pet peeves of the locals and of the expats was over tourism and just the huge quantities of tourists visiting. So when you go to the beaches, they're very busy. When you go to restaurants, it's difficult to get a seat. When you go to the cultural sites, it's just throngs of people there all the time. There was a lot of traffic in the city as well from buses and taxis. One of the benefits of COVID is that reset, which has definitely increased the quality of life of the expats and the locals who live here because life is much quieter. It's definitely a good time, if you like, a relaxed holiday and prefer a quiet beach to a busy one. If you want to go see one of the temples or the pagodas in the morning and have a lot of space to move around. If you've got a young family or you're a couple looking for a relaxing week away, then it's definitely nice. I'd actually take advantage of the next 6 to 9 months before full tourism returns to China and to Vietnam. I agree that touring has never been a true active destination where you go for adventure or something truly energetic. It's always been a kind of beach getaway, relaxing, chill out place. It's just a little bit more chilled than before, which is fine for the people who enjoy that. Kerry Newsome: [00:24:01] Yeah. All right. Now, I'm doing a count and check Colm so that, you know, we're keeping into our ten because I'm promising everybody ten things to remember about Nha Trang. So I think I'm up to around five. You might have to check me back. Colm Hutchinson: [00:24:19] I'll take your word for it. Kerry Newsome: [00:24:20] All right. Good. So have we covered the islands, do you think? Colm Hutchinson: [00:24:26] I think I mean, there's a few more islands, but there's nothing particularly more interesting in one than the other. I think I've covered the main ones that I would suggest are nice to visit. All right. What's next? I guess the culture and there's some nice cultural sites that you can go to visit here and people like temples and Buddhists and monasteries and things like that. So I think the first is Po Nagar and Temple. It's the point guard pagoda, which was built around the eighth or ninth century by the Cham Civilisation, who were indigenous to the region around that time. It's a beautiful kind of terracotta and temples built on a hill overlooking the river and upon a guard was an ancient goddess that they and I think the goddess of Mother Earth, I believe she was known as. It's a very interesting site with beautiful steps that lead up to these terracotta style temples and lots of different religious insignias and carvings. These are actually from a variety of religions, not just from Buddhism, but also from Hinduism and other religions that have come through Vietnam over the centuries. So a lot of people like to go there to see the people do their dancing and to check out the temple. Kerry Newsome: [00:25:44] It’s very beautiful. Colm Hutchinson: [00:25:45] It's gorgeous and it's particularly nice at nighttime, just as the sun is going down and the lights start coming up. Kerry Newsome: [00:25:51] It's good that you mention this because and I guess you're mentioning it too, because you're into digital media. Capturing some of your visits on a camera at the right time of the day, it is worth taking into consideration. If you are looking at these tours and you're saying to your tour guide, when's a good time to go when you want to get that nice sunset in the background behind the ruins, etc., you know, if you're a photographer that's worth considering. Colm Hutchinson: [00:26:24] Definitely. I think the same would apply to Long Son Pagoda, which is a Buddhist pagoda and right into the city center. It's famous because it has a giant standing statue of Buddha whose head kind of sticks out above the trees and looks over the city. So you can see him from many different places within the city. It's also got a sleeping Buddha, a very long sleeping Buddha and a big Buddhist temple where they perform, where the monks will perform their prayers and their different daily activities. It's a really nice, chilled out place to go and just take in some nice Buddhist and religious shrines and monuments. A lot of people like to go to that. I'd recommend taking a Vespa tour to go and see those culture sites. There's also a Vespa tour where you can basically get your own tour guide who's a driver for the day, and he'll take you around. He or she will take you around the city on the back of a Vespa so you don't have to drive amongst the slightly chaotic traffic. You can kind of go around in safety and they'll take you around and see all of these sites to have some lunch and try some local food. They'll give you some history about the area, particularly these Buddhist sites. Kerry Newsome: [00:27:39] I highly recommend the best for tours. I've done them myself. You know, whilst I originally was terrified of the traffic, funnily enough, when I'm on the back of a Vespa with a Vietnamese driver, I feel safe. I know they know the traffic and the Vespers are the model of the Vespa. Design doesn't make you feel like you've got a 250 CC motorbike under your bum. You've got it going. It goes. Roughly at about 40 to 50k's per hour at the most have at it's push and it's very comfortable and the drivers really know what they're doing. So for anyone who's thinking about this and going, oh no, I wouldn't do anything on a scooter or whatever. No, I don't suggest you do anything yourself on a scooter, especially if you're a first time visitor. Certainly if you want to do something like this with the Vespa drivers, I know they do have they're quite scrutinized before they're given the licenses to do these kinds of things because they don't want it against their name that somebody fell off or or any entanglements. I'm glad you brought that up. It's just a novel thing to do in safety of and seeing some interesting historical places. Colm Hutchinson: [00:29:07] I think it's also quintessentially Vietnamese. You know, when people think of Vietnam, they think of the traffic and the kind of all these bikes flowing around, almost like a colony of ants. And it's actually kind of a good analogy because when you're in the middle of it does feel like a colony of ants, but yet everybody seems to know where they're going and it all seems to flow the way it's supposed to. Even if it looks like there's no order, there's definitely some order within the chaos, and it's quite organized. Kerry Newsome: [00:29:35] Chaos is how I've described it over the years. They kind of part like the sea and they can move amongst each other and they have their own signs to each other. And, you know, who has ridden away or whatever. I've never been able to quite figure it out, but I don't care. As long as they know what they're doing, I'm happy to go along with it. Colm Hutchinson: [00:29:55] Yeah. One thing I've noticed myself driving here for so many years is your peripheral vision really increases. My peripheral vision is so much better than it used to be. Yeah, there's just a certain intuition that people have when they're driving and they know how to get around. But it's for tourists. For someone who hasn't experienced it before, it is a little bit exhilarating. It's a little bit scary. It's quite fun. It's definitely something I'd recommend, and with the respirator writers, they're all, you know, very careful. So it's something I'd recommend just because it doesn't just give you an insight to the biking culture of Vietnam, but it also gives you a local insight to find out how the locals get around and to find out some interesting things around the city. They'll also be able to point out a lot of other things in the city as you drive past them, just to give you that local insight that you may not get if you're stuck in a car. Kerry Newsome: [00:30:44] Absolutely, and you might never do it again. That doesn't matter. It means you can go home and you can get that photo and you can get it out and you can show people and say, that was me. Colm Hutchinson: [00:30:55] So yeah, it's good for those Instagram moments and make a little video to show your friends. Kerry Newsome: [00:31:03] All right. What are we up to now? Colm Hutchinson: [00:31:05] Trang is also famous for its mud baths. Kerry Newsome: [00:31:07] I was going to ask you about this. Yes. Colm Hutchinson: [00:31:10] In the city, there are three I believe three mud baths just on the outskirts of the city. The mud baths are, as the name would suggest, it's full of mud. But the mud is a special mud that comes from a certain area and it's supposedly filled with many nutrients and different things that are supposed to be quite good. Kerry Newsome: [00:31:30] For minerals. Colm Hutchinson: [00:31:31] Minerals and calcite and various different things within the mud that's good for your skin. It's supposed to promote healing, but it's also just a fun and kind of interesting way to spend a day. So you go in and you buy your ticket, you change into your swimming clothes, and then you sit in this bath and these giant taps come on, and it fills up full of this gooey, slippery mud. It's great fun for all the family, whether it's the couple going for a nice day out or the kids want to go out and experience it. You stay maybe 20, 30 minutes in the mud and then you can go into all of these different hot springs. So they have lots of pools with some of them very hot, some of them very cold with waterfalls. I think one of them even has quite a big water park there as well. Now, the resort has mud baths, hot and cold mineral springs with some restaurants and also a water park. So a great day to go and spend from morning to early afternoon. It's got all the right mix of activity and relaxation. You can even do like spa treatments if you want to have a mud bath spa treatment and get a private area where you can have a private day with your fiance if you're on honeymoon and the kids will love just the water park and splashing about in the mud. So that's definitely something I'd recommend because you don't find it in many other places in Vietnam. Kerry Newsome: [00:32:54] No, definitely not. I'm really keen to find out more about that. I might talk to you about that later. Colm Hutchinson: [00:32:59] There's three of them, so put that on your list. What else do I love about Nha Trang? I guess the food. Of course. We have to talk about the food. Kerry Newsome: [00:33:06] We do indeed. Colm Hutchinson: [00:33:08] I mean, Vietnam is very trendy right now in general for its food and across the world. The Vietnamese food scene is starting to become more popular and trying. I think we're definitely known as a seafood mecca being so close to the sea. We have a big seafood industry. So getting an amazing seafood buffet or seafood dinner here is very, very easy. You know, we go to an affordable place. Oh, so so so affordable. I mean for you know, anywhere from $60 to $100 or even cheaper, if you just go to the very local restaurant. You can go get the most amazing different types and varieties of seafood here. Of course, you have all your standards like lobster, crab and shrimp and then various different fish that are from the region, but so many different types of other shellfish that you have probably never seen before. Very famous here for abalone, which is like those sea urchins which are grown just off the coast and quite inexpensive and quite interesting to taste, very unique taste and texture to them. Also famous as a seafood dish, here is a jellyfish salad, which you probably wouldn't have heard of before, but you did mention jellyfish earlier. Not something that I particularly enjoy, but not because it's jellyfish or because jellyfish would not be traditionally what we would think of as a seafood dish. It's just for me, it's a little bit bland, but I know my wife loves it. What they do is, they take the jellyfish and they boil them in salted water for a long time to remove any of the mucus and any of the stinging tentacles. What you're left with is just basically crunchy jellyfish. Then they mix it into a salad with lots of chili and onion and different fish sauce. Then they whip it up into this jellyfish salad and it's very, very popular with the locals. So put it on your list if you'd like to try. It’s kind of unique. Kerry Newsome: [00:35:02] The texture, is it a bit like calamari like the octopus or? Colm Hutchinson: [00:35:06] It would be crunchier. So it's soft like calamari when you touch it. But when you bite into it, it's got a soft crunch. So it's yeah, a little not like not as soft as calamari, but definitely a unique texture, but not not bad in your mouth at all. I just don't find it to be particularly savory or flavorsome. But when they mix it with herbs and vegetables and some chili, it gets quite spicy. Vietnamese people, Vietnamese cuisine, they love texture, they love difference of texture and all of the dishes. So you've got the softness of your vegetables and your herbs with the spiciness of your chili and then the crunchiness of the jellyfish. They love that! Kerry Newsome: [00:35:45] I think it’s good to mention at this point about the food that you can go from the street food level, which you might be selecting your seafood out of small buckets on the side of the road or in the restaurant. You're sitting in little red chairs and you're eating the real local cuisine and what they can whip up and do with that. You can cook it whichever way you want. You can ask whichever way you want. It's really, really cheap and it's really, really good. If you want to maybe spend a special night or you want to kind of stay for a while and you may be on alcohol or other things. There's definitely medium to high levels of dining experiences with seafood. That you can really enjoy along the beach from what I remember. Obviously at your hotels and restaurants, do you have a favorite fine dining restaurant? Colm Hutchinson: [00:36:50] For seafood buffet? I like to go to the Intercontinental and yeah, usually on a Saturday or Sunday they have a seafood buffet. It'll set you back, I think around $35, maybe $40, but it's all you can eat at a seafood buffet. Barbecued seafood, all the trimmings of a regular buffet and with the bottle of wine and I think a half a lobster as well. So if I want to treat myself, we go out of that compared to your prices back home. Yeah, there's no comparison. So the freshest seafood was caught that day. Kerry Newsome: [00:37:22] All right. You've won me already. Colm Hutchinson: [00:37:24] There's another restaurant I love to go to called the Grill Garden . It's not street food and it's not fine dining like the Intercontinental, but it's one of my favorites because it's a tabletop barbecue restaurant. So you come in and you sit on the table and then they insert this little small charcoal and circular barbecue and then put a grill on top. Then along the side of the restaurant, they have all of the setups where you can just basically gorge yourself on all this beautiful seafood and different types of local meat, and then you cook it at the table. So you go get all your food, you bring it over to the table, and then you pop it on to the grill and cook it to your liking. You can sit there all night long trying from just regular seafood and shellfish to exotic meats. Frogs and different types of beef and pork, even crocodiles, I believe they have as well. Then lots and lots of shellfish. You can just cook it, cook it up on your table with a few beers. It's very, very interesting. Whenever my friends and relatives have come over to visit, it's always been their favourite place to go. Kerry Newsome: [00:38:34] Well, we definitely have to bet it's got a Facebook page or something similar, so we'll have to put the link in for that. Colm Hutchinson: [00:38:40] Sure. Yeah, I'll. I'll find the link and send it to you. Then I guess quickly, just some other native dishes to the region that they're trying to be famous for would be Bianca, which is a seafood noodle soup that locals love to have for breakfast, lunch or dinner. So it's got vermicelli noodles and a beautiful seafood soup and then seafood. On top you also have Bancel, which are crispy savory pancakes cooked up on the street and then filled with and with spring onions, with shrimp, with pork and lots of different topics. Then it's dipped in this beautiful dipping sauce of fish sauce. It's kind of a sweet dipping sauce that's just really, really beautiful. Kerry Newsome: [00:39:26] How they get that pancake so crisp and crunchy, and yet with all those bits inside of it, and then you add the bits of salad and stuff and it's to die for, absolutely die for. Colm Hutchinson: [00:39:38] It's definitely one of my favorite dishes. I think the secrets are getting crispy as they use rice flour. So definitely one of my favorites and something that people should try. You'll get it in any restaurant in any of the hotels as well. There's also Goi Cuon, which is traditional rice paper rolls. Inside of those rolls you put in lots of beautiful herbs and vegetables with fermented pork, but it's not particularly pungent. It's just got a nice flavor and then it's dipped into a kind of peanut style sauce. It's very quintessential Vietnamese food where you kind of build your meal at the table yourself. They bring you all the ingredients and you roll up the rice papers first. You have to put them into water to make them soft. Then you roll all the ingredients into it and dip it into all these different sauces. So it's very much a Vietnamese style eating, sharing with the whole family. Definitely something people should try. Kerry Newsome: [00:40:35] I really encourage everybody to try all these different things, even if you just try it because, usually, in Western countries you are reluctant to because obviously each item on the menu is expensive in its own right. You can actually afford to try several of these and if you don't like it or someone else likes it more than you in your group or in your family, it's not the end of the world because it hasn't cost you an arm and a leg in the first place. So be experimental. You will be amazed at the flavors. I mean, obviously if you've got issues as far as allergies are concerned, make sure that you mention that to them like peanuts or chili or things like that. Or if you need gluten free, you're going to have to steer away from noodles, etc. But the vegetables are so fresh, you can often replace gluten. So there's many, many ways to still explore and discover Vietnamese cuisine, and I really encourage you to do so. Colm Hutchinson: [00:41:35] On that note as well, there's no problem being a vegetarian or vegan. Oh, gosh. I mean, just as part of Buddhist culture, many of them. Kerry Newsome: [00:41:45] Will be vegetarian. Yes. Colm Hutchinson: [00:41:47] Well, vegetarian full time or they'll have certain days of the month when they're vegetarian. So going to any restaurant, you'll have no shortage of vegetarian dishes, particularly tofu, and mixed with so many beautiful vegetables and herbs. There's one restaurant that my wife loves to go to, and it's only vegetarian food, and they do beautiful mushroom hot pots and with lots of beautiful vegetables, some of them. Kerry Newsome: [00:42:10] Even the names on the list as well. Colm because I know I've got a lot of vegetarians as my listeners, so I don't want to miss them out. Colm Hutchinson: [00:42:20] I’ll give you a list of a couple of them and then you can put them on to your list so people know where they are. Kerry Newsome: [00:42:25] Are we up to number nine? We've done food, I think, and to the extent that I can't do any more meals, I'm starving. Colm Hutchinson: [00:42:35] What else is there? I guess for people who do like a bit of activity its also become a kind of golfing region as well. So now there are three international golf courses all within, I guess within 30 minutes of the airport. So within 20 minutes of the city, basically. The first is on Vin Pearl , which we spoke about earlier. They have a fantastic links golf course on the island and supposedly quite challenging. I don't play much myself, but from my golfing friends they tell me it's very, very challenging because it's on the island, so it's subject to the elements. There's Diamond Bay Golf Course , which has been there for quite a number of years. Then in the last few years, there is KN Golf Links Cam Ranh, which is a Greg Norman designed golf course and that's beautiful looking and you can maybe put a photo of it for the listeners. Kerry Newsome: [00:43:28] Definitely. Colm Hutchinson: [00:43:29] A beautiful, windswept links golf course, one of the very few links golf proper links, golf courses in Vietnam I believe and designed by a fellow Australian that the shark Mr. Norman. Kerry Newsome: [00:43:40] Well, Greg Norman used to be the ambassador for Vietnamese golf courses and golfing in Vietnam up until I think maybe a year or so before COVID. I don't know whether he was very active in promoting golf in Vietnam. Colm Hutchinson: [00:43:57] Golf is becoming popular because Vietnam has a very quickly rising middle class. Golf has become a very popular sport and there's some incredible courses around the country. I think that change is good in that you have three beautiful courses, all within 20 minutes of each other and another one coming online as well. The other side of the airport, I think in October, I can't remember the name of it, but if you're a golf enthusiast, you can fly in and have three or four days of amazing golf, all within 20 minutes of you on very, very different golf courses. The rates are very reasonable in comparison to what you'll pay back home. Definitely. And they're not, shall we say, Mickey Mouse courses. They're supposedly very challenging courses. So they'd suit all levels of golfer. I know it's becoming very popular for people to book a kind of four or five day package where they can get a couple of days golfing and the guys can go play golf, the ladies can go for a spa treatment or visit the mud baths or just hit on the hit the beach for a couple of days. It’s fun for all the family. Kerry Newsome: [00:45:07] Yeah, great combination. Colm Hutchinson: [00:45:09] Then close to the airport where the golf courses are has a kind of second area called Cam Ranh. And Cam Ranh is the name of the airport that you fly into, and it's the area just outside of Nha Trang. In that region, over the last five years, a huge amount of resorts have sprung up. Along Long Beach, which we spoke about earlier, which is a beautiful beach. So a lot of people like to go there just for a tropical beach getaway, if you will, and where you can have three, four or five days just on the beach. You've got a lot of different resorts there from your international standard from Marriott and a lot of independent resorts. Some of them are very, very beautiful. You can just have three days doing nothing with the waves lapping up on the beach. All your food and entertainment and activities are taken care of in the resorts. Then a lot of people like to take just a one day trip, then to go into Nha Trang, check out the city, buy some souvenirs and see some of the sights there. Kerry Newsome: [00:46:09] So I kind of look at it as like Nusa Dua is to, you know, Bali and the main areas of Bali. It's kind of a bit like that isn't it. Colm Hutchinson: [00:46:19] Yeah, definitely. It's just a getaway place where you want to do nothing but relax. Whereas if you're a bit more lively or you've maybe got kids and you want to get out and do things and see the cities, then you'd go into that train. Kerry Newsome: [00:46:31] Can you speak a little bit about the variety of accommodation available? Colm Hutchinson: [00:46:37] Yeah. I mean, just even before COVID came, there was an oversupply of accommodation. Too many hotel rooms for the quantity of tourists that were coming in. So I think people are spoilt for choice now. When you have the airports, you have that strip from the airport coming into the city, which probably has 15. Kerry Newsome: [00:46:56] Yeah. Colm Hutchinson: [00:46:57] Yeah, just kind of around probably 15 and more on the way. Beautiful five star resorts and hotels and from some locally owned ones to international ones with all the top facilities and activities in that city. Then you have from Five Star all the way down to four three stars. You have homestays, you have some backpacker hostels, and then on the islands you have lots of beautiful resorts as well. So you've got Vinpro, which we mentioned, and then there is an Inn Van Bay, which is the peninsula just across from Trang, which has the very famous Six Senses Resort , which has been very, very famous for many years as one of the best resorts in Vietnam. So if you're looking for something truly luxurious, I think they almost call it a six star resort. You go somewhere like Six Senses and some of the other islands on the bay have their own amazing resorts as well. So you've got family friendly, you've got a couple orientated resorts, vibrant city resorts, which are right on the beach in the centre of the city like the Intercontinental or the Sheraton or the Novotel and definitely spoilt for choice. And because of COVID, obviously the rates in hotels and resorts these days are remarkable. You know, you can stay at a top five star resort here for $60, $70 a night and some of the other ones even cheaper. So definitely great value for money at the moment. Kerry Newsome: [00:48:21] Can I put you on the spot and ask for any of your favourites? Colm Hutchinson: [00:48:26] My favourites in the city I'd recommend are Intercontinental and the Sheraton and in terms of resorts and hotels and I like Movenpick , which is close to the airport. The Aminana is a fantastic resort Kerry Newsome: [00:48:43] How do I spell that? Colm Hutchinson: [00:48:45] That one and am I in? Kerry Newsome: [00:48:48] There is one called Amiana. Isn't that. I've seen some really beautiful weddings done there. Colm Hutchinson: [00:48:56] There is, yeah. I mean there's a lot of resorts so many that I've lost track. There is Amiana, which has beautiful swimming pools and villas. I recommend it for people who like to swim. There's the ANAM and there's Alma Resort , which is fantastic for kids because it's all centered around kids activities and fun for the family. Mia Resort , which is a very small boutique resort, very popular with couples, honeymooners, people who just want to get to a very small, very service oriented resort. Very, very beautiful. In the city there's Intercom Sheraton , a new hotel called Potique , which is fantastically designed, just a very unique interior and decorations that they've used, starting with. Pol Pot Boutique where you have a very, very nice décor inside. Kerry Newsome: [00:49:56] So these are all four and a half, five stars. What about in that three star range? Colm Hutchinson: [00:50:04] And the three stars. Kerry Newsome: [00:50:06] A budget traveller that wants to just come and do some diving, who wants to sort of get the beach scene, who maybe might want to spend an extended time so they want something a little bit more affordable. Colm Hutchinson: [00:50:19] Ibis Styles , which is an encore property which would be three star prices, but definitely four star quality rooms and service. Yeah. The Havana Hotel is another one that's on the main strip. There's just so many, but I think the key is value for money people are going to get when they come here. So I'd recommend paying a few dollars extra for the for. Kerry Newsome: [00:50:44] Great. Totally, I think that's the lovely gift that Vietnam keeps giving is value for money across the board. Even before COVID, it was still giving good value for money. I think in South East Asia, it's really up there. Is there anything you want to wrap up? I've got 11 reasons to go to Nha Trang so I can turn this from 10 to 11 easily. Colm Hutchinson: [00:51:11] It's a pretty safe city. There's no real tourist traps, I would say that you fall into as long as you know. Kerry Newsome: [00:51:18] Book things where common sense prevails. Colm Hutchinson: [00:51:19] Yeah, exactly. Kerry Newsome: [00:51:21] I'm working on the theory that most people listening have got common sense for sure. Thank you so much for coming on. I'm kind of amazed at how much you know, but I guess in 12 years that's what happens. You kind of accrue all this knowledge and it's stored in your head. I'm glad we were able to extract it from you today and share it with everybody. So thanks so much for coming on. Colm Hutchinson: [00:51:48] You're very welcome. Okay. And I hope your listeners find some interesting nuggets in there for them. If they come to ensure that they have an enjoyable trip. Kerry Newsome: [00:51:58] I'm sure, and I'll make sure for everyone, for the places that Colm has mentioned, I'll make sure I'll put as many links as I can. There is always, always a transcript available from each show. So if you prefer to be a reader and you want to just read through the transcript, that's easily done, you can just print that off anyway. Colm, aah, look forward to seeing you on the track actually. Colm Hutchinson: [00:52:24] Yeah. You're long overdue. A visit. Kerry Newsome: [00:52:26] I am. Thanks, Colm! Colm Hutchinson: [00:52:29] You're very welcome.

S4-13 Citizen 44 podswap Sorry no transcript for this episode

S4-09 Hanoi A Foodies Paradise P1 What About Vietnam – S4 -9 - A Foodie’s Paradise – Part One SPEAKERS: Kerry Newsome, Corrin Carlson Kerry Newsome: 00:18 Xin Chào and welcome to “ What About Vietnam ”. Sometimes when you travel light with an open mind, and you're not tied down with any commitments that can't be changed, the world can truly open up as your oyster. Let me begin today's program with some background to my guest. It started with a working holiday, I'm told, starting in New Zealand, moved on to Asia, then to Hanoi for a month, then that led to three months and ultimately would you believe to three years. As you will soon find out, this is only the tip of the iceberg for my delightful foodie guest on today's show, Corrin Carlson, who found her heart and passion for food in Hanoi. 01:26 Corrin is a delightful American girl, who is using her acting and education to share her travel journey throughout Asia with her next stop being Europe in September 22, one to definitely watch out for. You may have seen Corrin on her very popular "The Fat Passport" TikTok and Instagram pages. As she shares her "Plates of Hanoi" with her followers. Her personality and knowledge really shine through in her posts. And I think she does the same in this show. You tell me. While Corrin was visiting her friends and family in the US just recently, I was able to hook up with her to record the show. Being such a wealth of information about the food localities in Hanoi, and some really great experiences, I just knew one episode wasn't going to cut it. So,I've expanded it into a two-part series. That way you get the full picture of some of her great finds, and she’s certainly got some super-duper tips for a stay in Hanoi. Without further adieu, let's welcome Corrin to the program. 02:47 Corrin Hello, and great to have you on the show. Corrin Carlson: 02:50 Thank you so much for having me. Kerry Newsome: 02:52 Let's just jump right in. Hey, I'm really keen to talk about Hanoi with you. And I know you're going to take us through the city and talk about it from a tourist as you were, when you first arrived, and then originally to someone living there for three years. So maybe share with us just some of those things about the city as a whole, just to kick things off for everyone. Corrin Carlson: 03:20 Well, Hanoi is without a doubt one of my favorite cities in the world. And like you said, I first came to Hanoi as a tourist. And I loved it so much that I kept extending my stay until so finally I realized I was living there. And then I did live there for three years because it really just draws you in. I used to live in New York. So, I love Big City energy. And for me Hanoi is one of those cities that just totally encapsulates that. There's so much going on, so much history, so much vibrant life happening pretty much around the clock. And it's just an absolutely stunning place to get lost in and also to live in. Kerry Newsome: 03:59 The times that I've visited, I've probably acted more as the tourist because I am a tourist, let's face it, I didn't get to live there, and I don't get to live there. But there's certainly some areas which I felt more drawn to because of their architecture, as you say, that vibe in the area, just the atmosphere and the friendliness, a great one. Can you speak to that yourself? Corrin Carlson: 04:27 Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think Hanoi is a city that's one of a kind in the way, like the best cities in the world are. I know so many people love Saigon (Ho Chi Minh City). It's very cosmopolitan. But to me, Saigon is like a cut and copy of a lot of other large cities that you find. But Hanoi because of its history is entirely its own. So, it's a large city. It's a city of about 5 million people, but because it has so much rich history and it is a city of lots of skyscrapers. It's a lot flatter in comparison to other large cities. So, the old architecture from the French, from before the French and from immediately after, really, is the main focus of what the city looks like. And also, you'll find that people sometimes, especially southerners, say that, "Oh, in the north, the Hanoians, they're so stuck up there." Kerry Newsome: 05:26 [laughter] I've heard that, too. Corrin Carlson: 05:28 Yeah, exactly. And especially as a foreigner, who didn't speak Vietnamese, when I first arrived, when you hear the dialect of the north, and you see the mannerisms of people that they have, it seems very brisk, very blunt. So, it doesn't seem right away that people are very happy to see you, or even very happy going about their own lives. But once you just get used to the culture, and you start even to learn a little bit of the language, you realize that people are saying very nice things to you, even if they don't have a smile on their face all the time. It's just kind of the emotional state of the north. So, I think people are kind of turned off by that sometimes as a tourist or as a foreigner. But if you walk in, and you're just kind and polite, you can trust that even if you don't understand people, they're being kind and polite back to you. Kerry Newsome: 06:17 It's a good point to mention, because I think you're right. I think I've noticed that there is a serious note to the people in Hanoi, they are very serious facially. But every time I've dealt with anyone in Hanoi, and I actually do some work in Hanoi with a tourist company, everyone is just so lovely. And I find even the youth of Vietnam, they are even more exuberant to talk to foreigners, because they want to practice their English and they want to do things, they want to get to know a little bit about you and what we know about Vietnam back to them. So, there's a really nice view, but I do say, again, that I do get drawn to the lake areas or around the lakes, but maybe you talk to us about your experiences of the best kind of places for a tourist to head towards. Where would you suggest that they start their journey or their trip in Hanoi? Corrin Carlson: 07:29 Yeah, absolutely. You're so right. The lakes are such a total hub to both the living and the tourism, culture parts of Hanoi. So, in the very center of Hoàn Kiếm, we have Hoàn Kiếm Lake, which is an ancient lake, and there's a lot of story and history behind it, a lot of old temples in it, that surround it. And so, what I would say, if you are coming to Hanoi as a tourist, you only have one, two, maybe even three days, I would say that staying near Hoàn Kiếm Lake in that central district is the best place for you to be. There's so much going on everywhere in the city. But most of the tourist places, most of the temples that you want to go and visit, most of the souvenir shopping is going to be right in that area. So, that's a great place to be. 08:20 If you have a couple more days, say you're there four, five, seven days, I definitely do recommend staying over by Hồ Tây, which is the big, big lake that takes up a large portion of the center of Hanoi. And there's a neighborhood there, where actually a lot of foreigners live called, Hồ Tây, means West Lake. So, this is the western area where a lot of people live. And there's a lot of like great nightlife, great restaurants, a lot more people speaking English in that area too, if you're interested in having conversations with Vietnamese people or with foreigners who live there, and just hearing about their lives. So, both areas have a lot of history, a lot of great food and a lot of great views to them. It just depends on what your timeframe is. Kerry Newsome: 09:06 Yeah, and that's a good point to mention the timeframe because I know when I first went, I literally did the 'hop in, quick surveillance of the city', did the major points and got out, so I really didn't get a good feel for the city. It was just too short. But of course,subsequent visits, I've delved in a little bit deeper and spread my wings a little bit further and got to know people and things like that. And the lake that you mentioned, as in West Lake, that's the lake that you don't hear that much about. And it's a shame because, as you say, it's got a little bit of a different vibe to it than Hoàn Kiếm Lake. Maybe share a little bit more about West Lake if you wouldn't mind, because I think it deserves a bit more attention. Corrin Carlson: 09:59 Yes, certainly. So, there's about three or four different districts, different distinct neighborhoods that surround West Lake because it is such a large lake. And each of those neighborhoods has their own feel. But it's really common for people who live in those neighborhoods to spend a morning, biking around the lake or walking around the lake with friends, it's a couple of kilometers long. So that's a really nice activity. And then when you are doing that, when you're going along the lake, you're going to see lots of shops and restaurants. But more than anything, what you're going to see is so many coffee shops. 10:35 You're talking about the youth of Vietnam before and they have so much energy, they like to be seen, they like to dress up, they like to take photos with their friends. And so going to the coffee shops on the lake is a really popular activity with young Vietnamese people. But with people of all ages, the coffee culture is so huge there. And so if you get a chance to go over to Hồ Tây, and then take a taxi there, which is really affordable and doesn't take much time, no matter where you're coming from, you can cafe bop around different parts of the lake and enjoy the views and also enjoy just getting to be around people who live in those neighborhoods. Kerry Newsome: 11:14 And you're right, they do have an energy, especially the younger people, which I love, because they make every event and even the event of just eating food, something to celebrate. They're always taking photos of the food, the taking photos of the people that they're with, the place they're in. So, they really celebrate it. And at first, I found that, "Oh, gosh, do they have to take a photo of everything?" But it was explained to me that it is part of their fun. It's part of their enjoyment of the occasion. And it's quite lovely in the end, you get swept into it a little bit. In the end, I was taking photos of everything that I could get my hands on. [laughter] Corrin Carlson: 11:57 Yeah, of course. Kerry Newsome: 11:59 So, I'm going to ask you to dig a little bit deeper, because I know something that you found, it was your thing. Because I've seen you so often and followed you on your TikTok and on your Instagram page. So, let's of dig deep into the food, which I think you thought or found was 'Top of the Pops'. Corrin Carlson: 12:28 Yeah, absolutely. I'd be happy to. Should we start with some more casual dining, some street food? Kerry Newsome: 12:33 Yes. Let's start there. Yes. Corrin Carlson: 12:36 Awesome. So, you're right, I started an Instagram page called "Plates of Hanoi", shortly after moving to Hanoi, because I love street food, and I love Vietnamese food. And in the north in Hanoi, there's phenomenal food. But what I was finding was that there wasn't a lot of influencers who spoke English that were writing about it. So, I was going out and trying all these foods, and I thought, "Oh, I think other people who speak English would be interested in learning what these foods are, too." So, I just started documenting it. And then that page really took off. So, in Hanoi, there's a lot of competition, again, between the north and the south and that people think that Saigon food is better, but I have to disagree. The North just has incredible richness and flavor. Because the North actually has four seasons, four very distinct seasons. So instead of things being light and sweet like they are in the south, you'll find a lot heartier dishes and a lot heartier flavors. Even the Phở in the north is much heartierthan you'll find in Saigon in the south. Kerry Newsome: 13:43 Yes, it's true. Corrin Carlson: 13:44 Yeah. And Phở actually comes from the north, that originated from either Hanoi or the very northern rigids of the country. It's kind of disputed. So, northerners are very specific about the way that they make Phở. So, in the south, and often when you're in other countries, for example, in the US, and you try. I had tried for here; it was southern style. So, it came with lots of herbs, and lots of lime and bean sprouts, things that you add into the broth, but in the north, the dish comes out as is and you can put in some garlic, you can put in some chili sauce, but that's it. Because the broth is so much richer and it's so much heartier. It's more to just be celebrated on its own. And even though it gets super-hot in the summer, just like it does in Saigon. People eat Phở every single day. It is an absolute staple. 14:37 Some other dishes that are distinct to Hanoi, the most famous dish in Hanoi is Bún Chả and this is- maybe many people who are listening, who have seen the episode with Anthony Bourdain, and he takes Obama to a Bún Chả spot in Hanoi and they have a great conversation. But the reason why that dish was picked was because it just totally encapsulates the food, the street food scene in Hanoi. So you have little grilled pork patties that are grilled over an open flame, and often made with lemongrass and there will be cut up pork belly as well, it's all going to come in a broth, usually a fish sauce base with sugar in it, it will come with herbs on the side and Bún which is like vermicelli noodles. 15:25 With Vietnamese dishes, it's very common that pieces will come a little bit here, a little bit there. And then you're supposed to take a bite of this, and a bite of this and a bite of this and put it all together in your mouth. So, it's DIY, in terms of flavor, and what you want to add. So Bún Chả is something that you absolutely need to try when you're in Hanoi. You can still go to the restaurant, or Anthony Bourdain and Obama ate, it's now called Bún Chả Obama. And it has the table where they ate, encased in glass and set up as if they were there. Personally, I don't think it's the best Bún Chả in Hanoi, I would prefer someplace in Hoàn Kiếm, like, Bún Chả 34, Bún Chả. But it's a good example. Kerry Newsome: 15:25 And I've been there. It's not actually a fancy place, is it? Corrin Carlson: 16:09 No. Kerry Newsome: 16:09 It's got little red chairs, It's just really, really a street food type place. Because when I first went there, I expected, because Obama had been there. That they would have taken him somewhere a little bit special, but it wasn't. It was just a really average everyday street food place. So, when you go there, don't think you're in the wrong place. You're probably in the right place. Corrin Carlson: 16:38 You're so right. And that season, that Anthony Bourdain was filming, it was all about street food places. So, it was the perfect option for them to take care, though I did hear that, all the other people that are in the restaurant at that time are actually background actors, so. Kerry Newsome: 16:53 Yes, I know that [laughter] Well, you've got to give it your best shot, haven't you? Corrin Carlson: 16:58 Yes, exactly. One other great thing that I will recommend about Hanoi because a lot of the food has meats, or it has some kind of protein in it. So, people are a little bit cautious if they're vegetarian, or perhaps if they're vegan before they traveled to Vietnam. But a really lovely thing that I enjoyed learning about and especially enjoyed eating when I was in Hanoi, were at the vegan buffets. So, it's a part of Vietnamese culture to eat vegan food, one to two times a month, depending on the lunar calendar, if you practice Buddhism. Some of the younger generations follow it, sometimes they don't. But even still Vegan Buffets have come out of this. 17:40 So, you can find some 'hole in the wall' places, and some places that are just absolutely built up and beautiful. And you spend about one to $3 and it's all buffet style vegan food. And I don't know about you, Kerry, but I never used to like vegan food, [laughter] I suck up my nose about it. And I was like, "Tofu? Why would I eat that?" And then I went to Vietnam, and I completely changed my mind about vegan food. They do it so well. And they just have amazing simple ingredients, but awesome flavors. One place that I really like that's in Hoàn Kiếm, it's also in Tây Hồ, they have a couple locations around the city. It's called Veggie Castle. It's in big three-story houses, and all of their locations as grand buffet. And it's just like a cool place to hang out too, you'll find lots of young Vietnamese people there. Kerry Newsome: 18:35 I'm really glad that you starting to mention some places because I want to be able to direct people, because sometimes I think when you arrive in Vietnam, and I hear it from people all the time, it's a little bit overwhelming. It is so buzzy, there's the motorbike thing, there's a lot going on.. So, trying to point people to a particular area or particular place helps, because then they can find, and if you're a vegan or you're a vegetarian, and that's really what you want to do. Well, I'm going to make sure that I put the link and mention this properly in the show notes. So, if you are vegan, you're not lost, you're going to find places very easily in Hanoi, which offer vegetarian or vegan food. And it's the same for people that are gluten intolerant. People say, "Oh, you can't go to Vietnam because yourgluten intolerant." And I go, "Whoa, that's not quite right because there's the beautiful broths." As you say, you don't need to actually add the noodles and you can still get those beautiful flavors with the herbs and the chicken or the beef whatever you choose. Corrin Carlson: 19:54 Exactly. I have to add too, that often the noodles or rice noodles, so Phở noodles, Bún. If you like Bánh like a Bánh it's rice flour, rice noodles. So, if you're super, like Coeliac intolerant, yeah, there might be some gluten somewhere in the process, which is something to watch out for. But if it's just something you choose not to eat, you're going to be totally fine. All you really can't eat is Banh Mi. But that's it. Everything else is rice flour based. Kerry Newsome: 20:23 Yeah. And that's a shame because I'm a big fan of Banh Mi.. [laughter] I mean, totally, that is my go-to, when my girlfriend picks me up from the airport when I arrive, the first place she takes me is to a place to get by Banh Mi., doesn't matter what time I arrive. That's the first go-to. Corrin Carlson: 20:41 Absolutely, you can find it any time of day too. Kerry Newsome: 20:44 You can. Yeah, absolutely. And it's just not the same. Like they sell, these places here in Australia that sell it. And it's just not the same. I hate to say it, but it's just not. Corrin Carlson: 20:54 I agree. It's almost too fancy. The places you go to here in the States, they're like to put together and like, "No, I needed to slap that sandwich around a bit, and then it's going to taste right." Kerry Newsome: 21:03 [laughter] Yes, exactly. All right. So, street food, anything more you want to add for people so that they can really get a good sense of street food in Hanoi? Corrin Carlson: 21:15 Yeah, absolutely, I would love to talk about a few more. Another dish that I would say, is a standout in Hanoi is called: Phở Cuốn. Instead of the Phở noodles that we know that they're skinny and long, it's the same noodle, just not cut up. So, it's going to look like a sheet of noodle, the same thickness. It's laid out flat. And then inside is posed, usually roasted beef, lettuce, and coriander and then it's rolled up. So, it creates this nice little roll. And it's served with dipping sauce. So that dish also originates in Hanoi. There's a great little island, or tiny little neighborhood on Hồ Tây called Trúc Bạch. And this is the birthplace of this dish, Phở Cuốn. So, when you're driving around Hanoi, you'll find often that you'll be on a street, and you'll look at the street, and you'll realize that all of the restaurants on the street, or all of the shops on the street are selling the exact same thing. 22:20 That's just how the Vietnamese view competition. It's like, 'Well, if my competitor has clients that are coming here to buy Phở Cuốn, then if I'm here with Phở Cuốn, some of them will come to me, rather than being spread out.' So, for example, when you go to Trúc Bạch, all you have to do is cross the bridge onto Trúc Bạch islands, and entire street that you drive down is packed with Phở Cuốn restaurants all the way down, probably 10 on each side. And you can really walk into any of them, there'll be slightly different and have a few different things on the menu or cooking that's a little bit different. But more or less, it's the same food, the same ingredients. And so,it's fun to be in those places and look around and be surrounded by the same things. Kerry Newsome: 23:06 And I think if you use the advice, I had from someone recently, I spoke to about food in Hawaii, he said, "A good way to pick a restaurant is to pick it by their menu." So, if they have a very big menu, like an extremely extensive menu, then he said, "You can figure yourself that they're not going to be able to cook all of that fresh or super fresh." So, it's more looking for the restaurants or street vendors, that have got a very small menu, because it's what they focus on. And it's certainly going to be the freshest and made that day. And just something else I thought mentioning, some places- correct me if I'm wrong here Corrin, is that sometimes it's all gone by like 10 o'clock in the morning, that day. Because, if I'm sort of getting up from having a lazy day, and I want to mooch and have something later. I go to some places, and they've sold out. Because the Vietnamese are very early morning people and breakfast and getting up early to meditate or go for a walk or that sort of thing. They then are having their breakfast quite early. So sometimes the Phở is all gone early. So, it's not necessarily a dish that you have in evening or whatever. It's earlierin the day, would you say? Corrin Carlson: 24:40 Yeah, definitely. And it's interesting. I would say that each Phở restaurants, it's unless one of the really well-known popular ones. Usually, it'll serve through one meal. So, like you said, they wake up at 4am, they'll prepare their Phở and then it'll be done by 9am, or there'll be a lunch spot or there'll be a late at night spot, for like people who are getting off work late at night. And that's very common for a lot of different dishes and street food that you'll find in Hanoi as well. Kerry Newsome: 25:13 Yes. When you were mooching around and picking places, how did you pick places that you decided to try and then ultimately record on your Instagram or TikTok page? Corrin Carlson: 25:27 Yeah, I asked a lot of friends, both foreigners and Vietnamese for their recommendations. And I stalked Instagram so hard, and I would save posts from other people that I followed, who were Vietnamese foodies, and places that I wanted to try, or dishes that I wanted to try, and I could try elsewhere. Even just searching through hashtags like #HanoiEats or #FoodieHanoi, #HanoiFoods, those gave me a lot of ideas about what to eat. And honestly, I am a very adventurous person, which was why I decided doing the "Plates of Hanoi" and photographing these things was a good thing for me to do, because I'll eat anything. But I know some people want to learn about it first. 26:14 What I can definitely say to you in Hanoi is, there's a lot of these staple dishes. They're very neighborhood based when it comes to the street food. So, there'll be a great Phở spot on the street. And on the next street, there'll be another great Phở spot, and there'll be a little bit different. But neither of them is bad. What I would say, as a tourist in Vietnam, especially, is, learn some of the names of these dishes, do just a little bit of research about what they look like and what they are. And then as you're walking around the city, and you see a Phở restaurant, or you see a Bún Chả restaurant, you're like, "Hey, I know what that is. It's not the place that I was planning to go based off a recommendation, but it looks good, it looks busy, I'm going to go in." And you're guaranteed to have a great meal, even if it's not the original location that you wanted to visit. Kerry Newsome: 27:07 I agree, and I think if you see a lot of Vietnamese at a restaurant, that's always a good tip. Corrin Carlson: 27:19 One thing that is so much fun, and I think maybe not a lot of tourists do it. There is a street in Hanoi, which is called Chicken Street. And you can look it up on Google Maps. And it won't say Chicken Street, it will point you to the actual Vietnamese name, but it is a street that is just like the Phở Cuốn street where every restaurant on that street selling one thing, this street is all selling Barbecue Chicken and Barbecue ribs, pork ribs, pretty much. Each restaurant will have a slightly different variation, but pretty much all the same things. And it's only a nighttime activity, mostly people will go as couples or they'll go with groups of friends, they order beer, they order, grilled chicken, and grilled ribs and grilled Bánh Miến, it's just like a super fun night out. Each restaurant will have their own hot sauce recipe that they're well known for. That's right Hoàn Kiếm. And it is always a great meal. Just like you said before, go to the ones that have some people but it kind of depends on the night. Sometimes my favorite is pretty quiet, even though, it is a very popular place. But I've never been disappointed on that street. I definitely recommend it to anyone who eats meat. Kerry Newsome: 28:39 I mean, I know we're talking about all the good things about food in Hanoi. Are there any things that you would warn people out about like, maybe stay clear this and that. Because sometimes, in the media, it plays up a lot of negative things like dog and pigeon, and things like that. So maybe we need to talk a little bit about that, just to give people perspective. Corrin Carlson: 29:05 So, right Kerry, I get asked about dog all the time when I'm not in Vietnam by people who are wondering about the cuisine there. And it's something I'm super happy to just put to rest and lay out for people as well because I know it's something that foreigners and tourists worry about. So typically, and traditionally in Vietnamese cuisine, dog meat was actually something that was very expensive, and was only eaten on special occasions or on special group outings with friends. So, it's never a meat that you are going to accidentally end up with in any of your dishes, ever. Kerry Newsome: 29:41 Correct. Corrin Carlson: 29:42 Unless you're maybe out with a big group of Vietnamese people. It's a very special occasion. I've heard, one or two people out of hundreds- It's just not common. But one or two people say to me, I went out, I ate this meat. I thought it was very good. And then the next day I found it was dog, but that was just because they were out maybe with their business partners or something like that. So the only times that you would come across this meat- sometimes you will see places in Hanoi selling dog meat, but it's actually becoming very unpopular now, because the younger generation have really grabbed on to the idea of dogs as pets, which the older generations used dogs more as guard dogs and less so much as pets. So that mentality is changing in the big cities. If you go to a smaller city, you might see a little bit more of it. But again, it's expensive, and it's very well marked. So, it's not something that you're ever going to accidentally consume. Kerry Newsome: 30:38 Yeah, and I'm really glad you've put it that way. Because I think that's the fear and the uneducated- that don't know about it. And it's not commonly spoken about on any social media, but it's important, I think to address that it's just not going to land on your plate accidentally. 30:55 This is where we're going to finish part one of Hanoi, A Foodie's Paradise. Join me for part two of my interview with Corrin Carlson in the next episode, where we talk more about what to look for in Hanoi for food, and taste sensations. And let's check out where those fabulous tips are from Corrin. Stay tuned to What About Vietnam and follow us on our Facebook , Instagram and Pinterest pages. 31:27 Before we let you go, I thought I would introduce you to a new Cooking Class and Market Tour that's now featuring on the WhatAboutVietnam.com website. It's based in Hanoi. So, after we've been chatting about Hanoi and some of the great foodie experiences, I thought this was a great one to remind you about. What's wonderful about this is, the class is with Chef Duyen. I've done the class with her she's absolutely fabulous, great personality, what she doesn't know about cooking our food, the markets will just blow you away. What's exceptional about this tour and the opportunity to learn from her is that she brings her class now into her own home. So,you get to meet her family. You get to just hear about how food is a big part of Vietnamese culture, their family life and social upbringing. You should try all kinds of cooking classes in Vietnam, but I hope you're going to enjoy this one in Hanoi with the Chef Duyen. Please check it out in WhatAboutVietnam.com , on the Offers page . Until next time, I wish you happy travels in Vietnam. Please rate, review and send us your comments. Follow us on facebook here - https://www.facebook.com/whataboutvietnam Follow us on Insta here - https://www.instagram.com/whataboutvietnampodcast/ Follow us on LinkedIN here - https://www.linkedin.com/company/what-about-vietnam/ YOU TUBE - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCavCC1--oE5rUhO_SlENmqw Stay tuned for more in Part 2.

S4-07 Hue the city Past Present Future What About Vietnam – S4-07 Hué the city – past, present and future Kerry Newsome: 00:18 Xin Chào and welcome to “ What About Vietnam !” I'm really thrilled to bring you today's program, because we're going to be talking about a city, which I've wanted to talk about on this show for quite some time. But it's taken me a little while to find the right person, and to really do it justice. Now, the city is steeped in history. From the French occupancy through to what they refer to as the American war. So just to give you a little bit of background, Huế actually was the capital city of Vietnam for about 150 years, during 1802 to 1945, which, when you think about it, wasn't that long ago. It is very well known for its imperial Citadel, Royal mausoleums, and iconic pagodas. But what you don't get a real feel for until you've spoken to someone who's seen it and has really done a circumference of the city, having lived there, is some of the relics of that past and some of the wartime scars that still exist in those relics. 01:52 Anders Krystad is my guest on the show today, and what makes Anders special is that he's written a travel guidebook about Huế and did this just prior to COVID. And after reading it, I just knew he was the right person to be able to present Huế to you in the correct manner of respect that I wanted to give it. And also, to give you some rich detail. So just some things about the river. Some things about the food, which, whilst we've known for quite a long time, that Huế is right up there on the totem pole, as far as food, I didn't really understand why. But after this podcast, you're going to know why. And just some bits and pieces about accommodation, and the variables that are available to you. He's just got so much to share. 02:49 I just want to fill in a little bit of his background. He's former director of the project Football For All in Vietnam. And he did that between 2001 in 2016, retired in 2018, but obviously not one to sit idle. He contracts now to the project part time. In addition, he set up his own consultancy company, and is involved with a football club for kids, a not for profit grassroots club. I hope you're going to enjoy the program, stick with it as it's a beefy one. It's got lots of elements to it. So, use your timestamps. If you want to click through to certain aspects that you think you're most interested in, you'll definitely want to spend more than, one or two nights in Huế after you hear from Anders, what he has to say. And I just hope you really enjoy the show as much as I enjoyed putting it together. Let's say hello to Anders. 03:53 You're going to go to a short message and then we'll be back to the show. 04:03 Special Offers – by What About Vietnam Just before we jump into our chat with Anders, I thought I would just give you a quick snapshot of two offers that we have just put up on the What About Vietnam podcast website. One offer is called the Nurturing Indulgence Package . And the other is called the Immersive Indulgence package . Now the reason I wanted to tell you about them in this show is that they are at the Alba Wellness Retreat , just outside of Huế. So, I thought well if you want to go to Hue and then you'd like to experience a wellness day spa, then you can jump on these offers as they're only 40 minutes away from you, from the main city. The team at the Wellness Retreat of Alba are just so switched on, and I'm privileged because they allowed me to have a say in what we put together and I wanted to put something together, that would mean that you could go there and you could enjoy all of the facilities that they have, including talking nutrition, meditation and yoga. 05:11 They've got a natural spring pool, walks, beautiful ambience, the area is just divine, but you're going to get the good advice as well. It's an eco-resort, so you're going to feel in a really good space. And just the fact that they allowed me the opportunity, to put it all together, so that you can go there and take advantage of it all, as you see fit. As I said, two offers, one is nurturing. So, it's a two night stay. And one is the Immersive and it's a 4 night stay. Absolutely reasonably priced. It's not over the top, but it is actually over the top in the experience. So, I've sent lots of people there, they've all raved about it. So, I hope you'll enjoy it. And please, if you've got any questions, just reach out to me at the website. WhatAboutVietnam.com. But without further ado, let's get back to the show. 06:11 Anders, welcome to the "What About Vietnam podcast", I'm really keen to talk to you about Huế. A city certainly entrenched in imperial and wartime history. Welcome to the show. Anders Krystad: 06:27 Thanks a lot. It's a pleasure being here. Kerry Newsome: 06:30 Let's start with the history and some of the history that relates to the architecture, some of the major attractions, some of the pagodas and monuments, etc. And maybe if you can talk to that, for my listeners, I think that would be really helpful. Just to give context. Anders Krystad: 06:50 Yeah, let me take you a little bit into the geography first, because Huế is on the plane, from the mountain range around it, and out to the sea, it's about 50 kilometers, maybe a little bit more. These are all-- that plane is made up by sediments from the mountains over millions of years. And in prehistoric time, there were already people here, hunters and gatherers, there, we found things that have been carbon dated for more than 50,000 years ago, so, people have been living here. Most of those people were, what we call ethnic minority groups today. The majority of the people in Vietnam being The Kinh, they're about 85% of the population. But they were living out on the plains in forests and have a lot of wildlife and fruit and an easy life. 07:52 Between four and 5000 years ago, the Kinh people, the Vietnamese came to the area. And once they started irrigating and doing the rice fields, all the wildlife went away. Meaning that these groups these tribes had to follow the animals and they went into the mountains. So, the French, called mountain people. And it wasn't necessarily a conflict between those who lived there before and the people who came after, but it certainly changed their life. And it's good to know that when you come here, this is not only about the last empire which lasted from 1802 to 1945. It goes much further back in history. “Montagnard” 08:45 The city itself, officially now there's 350,000 people living here, I would guess that number to be much higher, maybe around half a million people because there's a lot of people coming in from the rural areas to seek their fortune in the big city. And they don't report it. They don't tell the government that they've been moved from the rural areas to a city. But it still has a charming little, small-town appearance. And people in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh said that people are really lazy because they only work seven days a week. But there is a different atmosphere here than the one you find in Ho Chi Minh city or in Hanoi I think and that is one of the reasons I like it. 09:38 The river divides the city in two, so north of the river you will have the old citadel, which is the Old Town surrounding the Forbidden City, which was the home of the Emperor's, which again lasted for about 150 years. The placement of the Citadel and the Forbidden City was calculated based on two islands in the river. There was said dragons watching over the city. So, it's a lot of sanctuary and superstition about that. There are also previous, at least two previous citadels that are hundreds of years old, sorry, hundreds of years old. Because the Nguyen lords, they were here in the area already in 1600, in the 50s, when small town Huế was basically a trading town with especially the trade to towards China. Kerry Newsome: 10:49 So essentially, there is a Forbidden City as part of the city, as we know as Huế. So, there is like an old part, which is the Forbidden City where the Citadel resides, is that correct? Anders Krystad: 12:16 Yeah. And the whole of the Citadel has been surrounded by a great wall. And with moats in front of it, and also man-made canals on all sides, that water is actually also led into the Citadel and into the inner place in the Citadel, which is the Forbidden City. Kerry Newsome: 12:36 Right. And then apart from that, out of the Citadel is the- for one of a better word, the old town of Huế, is that right? Anders Krystad: 12:48 Yeah, and as I told you, a lot of it has been destroyed. There aren't many original houses left. If you compared to, for example Hội An, where they managed to save the whole Old time, we just have scattered all housings. And for the local people who live there, they want to tear it down and build something more than with a kitchen and a bathroom. And they're not allowed to. But they neglect the maintenance, hoping that it will fall down one day. So, we need to step up, we need to protect these treasures from history. Kerry Newsome: 13:22 Yeah. And I think for people coming, I wanted to really distinguish that. So, everyone listening to when you arrive in a Huế you've got a split the township, I guess, into two, as in the Citadel, with the moats in there, and all the rest of it, that is the once Forbidden City. And then there is the old town which unfortunately due to, as you said, the war with the French and the so-called American war, it has been, I guess, existing in a state of disrepair since that time. Now if you were to pick out some individual places, in the Citadel, it's fairly obvious, but are there any particular pagodas or monuments that you think are standout that people should definitely visit? Anders Krystad: 14:21 From the Ming Nguyen Dynasty’s period, all the Emperors are buried here in Huế except the last one, Bao Dai, he is buried in Paris. And all the graves are seen as national relics, and they're recognized by UNICEF, of course. But they are very different. Some of them are huge parks and grand buildings, some of them have been totally destroyed or neglected for a period of time which has made them into ruins. They are being restored but they are at least three that you have to see. And that is Tu Duc, which was the Emperor when the French came. And then you have Minh Mạng , which is kind of replica of the Forbidden City in Beijing, it looks very similar but on a much smaller scale. 15:28 So, if you at least spend the day to see those three, and the Thien Mu Pagoda . The Thien Mu Pagoda is a very important pagoda. It was built also to reflect the status of the Emperors in the Forbidden City, but it's on the riverbank about three kilometers to the east. There is a story about the Thien Mu Pagoda, that couples shouldn't go there, because there was a young couple that weren't allowed to marry. They were forced to marry someone else they didn't love, and they attempted to drown themselves close to that pagoda, and one of them survived and the other one died, and most Vietnamese will believe that, so they will- you will not go with your boyfriend or your husband or your girlfriend. Kerry Newsome: 16:21 Right? Is that because you're afraid one or the other is going to jump ship or... Anders Krystad: 16:27 It's bad news. It's bad luck. And yeah, you've been to Vietnam a lot. You know that that superstition about bad luck? Kerry Newsome: 16:34 Absolutely. They take that as gospel. Absolutely. 16:46 Can you talk to us, Anders, about the...? They refer to it as the 'Perfume River' is that right? Anders Krystad: 16:53 If you translate it directly from Vietnamese, it means "The river of good smell ". So Hương isn't only for perfume or fragrance, it's also good smell. And it's a quite common girls' name. There's a lot of girls who are called Hương, because the parents thought they smelled nice when they were born. Kerry Newsome: 17:15 Right, I know a couple of Hươngs, I'm now going to remember that. I didn't know that before. But I do know a couple. Anders Krystad: 17:25 Girl's name in Vietnamese like a little poem. Like Về Thu Hương: Thi Thu Huong, Về Thu Hương means the girl or the one that goes to the market. Autumn, smells good. So, it's a girl that is born in the autumn and smells good. So that is quite normal with girls' names here. 17:43 The river: When it comes to Huế because this isn't that long, it comes from the mountains just some 20 kilometers inland. But it's quite majestic when it comes to the Huế city and it leaves out travels further or like 13, 14 kilometers before it hits the sea. And it used to be a lot of commerce traffic on the river bringing goods. But with the sediments increasing over the hundreds of years, the river became too shallow, and you can't bring big boats in there now at all. There is only these small tourist boats and it's a very nice way to see the river especially in the sunset, to go on the dragon boats bring some food and drinks and even if you can't afford it, rent some musicians that do the traditional music, put out the handmade lotuses with a candle to think about the people who have died on the river. It's a river that is in every Huế person's, how do you say, it's fear. They when they think about the Huế, they think about the Sông Hương, the good smelling river. The smell originally came from a grass that used to grow up on the riverbed. But that is practically distinct now because of pollution, pollution from agriculture, from sewage. Unfortunately, the grass is gone but it's kept in some private ponds so you can still actually go and smell it some places around Huế. Kerry Newsome: 19:32 Does it have a fragrance? Anders Krystad: 19:35 Absolutely. It smells good, Kerry Newsome: 19:36 Right? Can you relate it to any other smells just so that people know, "Yes, this is what he mentioned on the show.” So that when you go there like does it- Is it like licorice or is it like coriander or...? Anders Krystad: 19:52 I don't know how to describe the smell, but it's pleasant. It's good and It's not like a woman who's been sloppy with applying a lot of perfume and it's too much. It's not like that at all. It's very pleasant and soft smell. Kerry Newsome: 20:13 Right. But it's not like a spice or anything. Anders Krystad: 20:16 No, no, it's not. It's not like distinct like lemongrass or anything like that. Kerry Newsome: 20:23 Yes, that's what I meant. Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. But it's a pleasant smell. So, you know, you're there in that pond. Once you smell that, yeah. Anders Krystad: 20:33 And they say that, this actually affected the whole city, before I was in there. So, I can't vouch for that. But it's a good thought anyway, the river has been cleaned up, it's pretty safe to swim by now. And in the summer, you can. Kerry Newsome: 20:48 Really, oh, that I didn't know. Anders Krystad: 20:49 Yes you can go swimming there. It's also got a lot of fish. So, it's quite popular to fish along the river, fresh new pathways have been made along the river now all the way from the center, and all up to Thien Mu Pagoda. So, it's a beautiful evening walk, you will be joined by a lot of local people. Kerry Newsome: 21:15 And as if you were to stay in Huế, would you look to try and stay somewhere near the river? Or would you look to stay somewhere near the beach, which would be your preference and let's talk about one versus the other. Anders Krystad: 21:33 Okay, it depends on a little bit. I mean, if you really are a heat person, and you spend the whole day at the beach, you might as well live outside but there is not much done the beach and the seafood restaurants there's a couple of resorts, but I would say that stay in the New City or south of the river . But find a hotel that has got river view. There's plenty of hotels that have that, especially when the sunsets and you see all the lights over in the Citadel, you see the great flag tower on a sunny set. Kerry Newsome: 22:11 Very pretty. Anders Krystad: 22:12 Very, very pretty. Some of the hotels have like an open rooftop, with the bar and that's a perfect place for the sundown. Unless you travel a little bit up the river. There is a little mountain called Vong Canh mountain that has some old French and American bunkers on top of it. So, some people refer to it as Bunker Hill. And that is also a great place for sundown, and some of the tourist, agents they offer their Champagne. Kerry Newsome: 22:44 Oh, that sounds interesting. What do they call it? Bunker Hill? Anders Krystad: 22:47 Yeah, Bunker Hill on Vong Canh mountain. Kerry Newsome: 22:49 That's interesting. 22:50 So, let's move into another aspect that Huế is traditionally known for and that is its food. And I really want you to expand on this because you and I both talked, and we said we both love food and certainly Vietnamese food. So, talk to us about some of the dishes that people should look out for. So, when they're going to restaurants or they're looking for what to order on the menu. Can we suggest some must tries and talk about food? Anders Krystad: 23:35 Oh, absolutely. I think one of the reasons why the Huế is so diverse is because the Emperor demanded new dishes every day. So according to history, all the best chefs from the whole country were sent to create and invent for the Emperor. So, if you asked me about one signature dish, which will be one of the noodle soups, it's called Bún bò Huế, and you can eat it in different ways. It's a soft, rice noodle but with broth and of course the recipe for the broth is a family secret so you will never get anyone to tell us exactly in Huế. But you can have it with rare beef you can have it with boiled beef, you can have it with blobbed pudding. Personally, I like the rare beef. Kerry Newsome: 24:24 Rare beef, yep, me too. Anders Krystad: 24:25 Chicken is also okay. But there are hundreds of different local dishes and many of them are made from what we call wet cakes, which is mostly rice but this could also be cassava or a mix between cassava and rice. And they appear to be soft, medium thick layers of rice and it is wrapped around- it can be herbs with shrimp paste, it can be herbs with fried or grilled pork and there's a lot-- the common name for this cake is bánh. It means bread or cake. And my recommendation is not to go to the restaurant only based on the menu, but go and say- first of all, how many Vietnamese are there to eat? If it's packed, you're safe. If they don't have a menu, even better, because it means they have a very limited number of dishes. And it will all be fresh. The warning sign will be a restaurant that produces a menu with 100 pages, because that's simply mean- Kerry Newsome: 25:37 Laminated. Anders Krystad: 25:39 Copy fresh. It's not possible. If you go to-- Kerry Newsome: 25:44 That's a good tip Anders, which is really a very good tip. Anders Krystad: 25:47 I've been driving around when I've been traveling in Vietnam with Vietnamese, we are looking for a place to have lunch and I say what about that place? Now there's nobody there. We can't eat there; the food is not good. So even though I have never been there before. So, I recommend if you want to start one, you better hire your friends to sit there and eat every lunch. Kerry Newsome: 26:12 Don't I call that "Rent a crowd"? Yeah. Anders Krystad: 26:16 But some of them are really old, you can find them anything from like trolley in the street, to a little hole in the wall, to the small chairs, to go out for the Vietnamese, to socialize is part of the meaning of life. We have a wonderful little word for it. We say di náo, di nhau (to go or do “nhau”)- or meaning to go out, to eat, to drink, to talk, to tell stories, to sing, to drink some more, to eat some more and drink even more. And it can be pretty loud. And it can be pretty exciting, to-- Kerry Newsome: 26:54 Boisterous. Anders Krystad: 26:56 But I simply love it. And that little word 'náo' it covers everything that is present in our lives, socializing with family or friends. 27:05 On this plane, at the end of the plane before the sea, we have Southeast Asia's biggest lagoon, meaning that we have a lot of seafood, both from brackish water from the sea itself and from the river. And it's a magnitude of different fish and shellfish. The best restaurants will have aquariums where the fish is still alive. And you go and pick yourself. And just make sure that they take the one that you have picked and put it in the box. It might be tempting, for example, instead of that fresh lobster to give you an old one if you don't pay attention. Kerry Newsome: 27:49 Another good tip, make sure the one they pluck out of the water is the one they put in the pan. Yes, definitely, definitely. I know when I first started traveling and taking some people, etc., just for people to see them in the buckets. And that was a little bit confronting for some people because they couldn't see refrigeration and things like that. So, I think it was important to mention, and I wanted to kind of take time on that now is that they catch it literally in the early mornings. And they sell it during the day, pretty much, isn't it? And when they run out, they run out. Anders Krystad: 28:31 Yeah, absolutely. And actually, a lot of the fishing, especially in the sea goes on at night. The fisheries will come in early in the morning and there will be shippers waiting for them and they buy up the goods straight both from the fish farms and from the fishermen themselves and it's spread to the various markets, to the wet markets. And some of these also been sold on the sidewalk so it's today's product. If they, for some reason can't sell it, I think they find ways to utilize it for their own family and so on but even in my local market, when they sit down with this little bucket in front of them the fish is still alive, it's fresh, yes. 29:22 Hygiene is always an issue here, but I've been living here for more than 20 years now, and I've been sick twice, the risk is relatively low but use your head, clean your hand don't pick up anything from the floor or... Kerry Newsome: 29:37 It's just common sense mostly. I do know that some people do suffer with a bit of a tummy upset in the first few days of their visit. And a lot of that's just to do with I think some of the varieties of spices and the changes in the soil which the plants and In local produce is grown, that sometimes that's just a little bit richer than we're used to at home. You know, everything in our supermarkets here is kind of has been through several processes to get to us where, most of the food in Vietnam is extremely fresh, and especially in places like Huế and Hội An and townships, rather than big cities. Anders Krystad: 30:27 My family, they would never go to buy a fish in the afternoon, because that is already not fresh enough, they always go out in the morning, and then bring the fresh fish or the shellfish home. And most Huế people, they eat, lunch and dinner at home. So they go home at lunchtime, and they also take the rest after lunch. So, you will find that like, for example, banks and public buildings, they close hour and a half, maybe sometimes two hours in the middle of the day. So just get used to taking this. 31:09 On the other side, a lot of people go out for breakfast. So, it's quite common too, and I recommend any visitors, don't stay with the buffet in your hotel, go out and meet the people share the table and try to communicate, the level of English among most people in Huế is still quite low. But the young people love to chat. And they will seek you out and they want to sit with you. And they want to tell, and they want to share, and they want to learn. So, interaction through breakfast is actually a very good tip. Kerry Newsome: 31:44 Because traditional to Vietnam, as I've understood breakfast is actually more important than dinner. You know, where in Western societies where everybody kind of waits for, the dinner meal to be the main meal. I think because of the climate. Also, it's cooler in the mornings. So, getting early, and if you want to have Pho for breakfast, you've got to get to some places really early because it's gone by nine or 10 o'clock. So, I think breakfast is a meal. And you're right about the young people because they're studying English. So, for everyone, don't be afraid to sit down. And some of the students will come and talk to you because they just want to practice their English with you. And they just want to kind of share what they know, learn something about you. And it's just a really lovely exchange and I find it everywhere. And maybe because I travel a lot solo, maybe they take pity on me, and they go: "Oh! but talk to her. She's sitting, having her soup on her own." But yeah, I agree with you. I think mixing with the locals is extremely important. And it just adds another level of enjoyment to your stay. Anders Krystad: 33:06 When you stroll along the river here you are bound to meet some students who want to talk to you, and they offer to take you around to guide you and be your cue guides. They're not going to ask any money for that. They just want to practice their English and it's a lovely way to get in contact with the locals. And of course, if you happen to pass a wedding, and ongoing wedding, don't be shy to go in, that is seen as good luck. And you've been very welcome to sit down and drink and eat with the guests and weddings in Huế are big, if you don't have at least four or five hundred guests is laughing then it's-- Kerry Newsome: 33:46 And they're loud. Anders Krystad: 33:47 Yeah, a bit loud, because it's also involved terrible karaoke. Kerry Newsome: 33:52 Terrible karaoke. That is the only thing when I'm doing these podcasts. The only thing that's ever interfered with the show that I've recorded with anyone in Vietnam has been a wedding that decides to crank up next door. Like it's just so loud that you can't shut it out. Anders Krystad: 34:12 The problem is it only last for two and a half hours and then they're all gone. Kerry Newsome: 34:23 Can I move now to what time of year is a good time to visit Huế? because I think that's really important. Everyone wants to know, the best times of year. So, talk us through the climate and best weather and things to do. Anders Krystad: 34:40 Yeah, from the Central, Middle, and North. It's four seasons, basically follow the European cycle, not the Australian one, meaning that the autumn and winter can be really, really wet. Especially Huế and Da Nang and Hội An, we can have November, December, January, I'd be careful. You can still enjoy Huế. you can still do sightseeing, but it's raining and it's raining a lot, for a little bit better control now with the flooding, we haven't had serious flooding inside the city for a long time. The last really bad one was in 99, where hundreds of people died. And most families lost everything, books and photographs. I've tried to find some pictures of my wife's family, but it's all gone in the great flood of 99. Personally, I love the spring here because a lot of the trees with leaves, they keep their leaves during the winter. But when spring comes, they drop the leaves, and they are green again within a week or so. And that freshness in the new leaves is absolutely fantastic. Kerry Newsome: 35:06 So, we're talking February, March around that. And yeah, February, March, April, Anders Krystad: 36:03 February, April, it can start to get hot already in April. But normally that comes in the summers, in May, June, July can be up to 40 degrees centigrade, but-- Celsius, sorry, it's relatively dry heat. And we very often have a little shower in the afternoon that freshens up a little bit and make the temperature drop. But if you want to go swimming in the sea or swim in the river, the water is pretty cold. Until May. I hate cold water. I don't go and swim. Kerry Newsome: 36:40 Yeah, I can't do it either, no. Anders Krystad: 36:44 And also, if you go up in the mountains, we have a great national park here called Bạch Mã. And they have some beautiful little waterfalls and the palm, really postcard style, but the water is freezing cold. Even in the summer. This is really strange; we can get temperatures up to certain degrees in the sea. But up in the mountains is still like 10, 12, 14. Kerry Newsome: 37:16 Wanting to just address an abandoned park, it gets lots of images on Instagram and blah, blah, blah. So, we have to cover it off. So, is it Thuy Tien Lake? Anders Krystad: 37:33 That's a good question. Because I don't remember what it's called. Kerry Newsome: 37:37 You know the one I mean. Anders Krystad: 37:38 Yeah, it's a huge area. And it was set up to bring more tourists to Huế, and it completely failed. When it was still open. I was there with some friends, and we just went there for a picnic, bringing some blankets and food and beers and that was very popular among the local people. But it's quite far out of the city. And so, people prefer to go to somewhere closer to where they live. I wouldn't go there at night, it feels a little bit scary, some of those-- Kerry Newsome: 38:12 Bit creepy? Yeah. Anders Krystad: 38:14 But there are-- Kerry Newsome: 38:15 Apparently daytime, it's taken on a new life. Anders Krystad: 38:19 Yeah, and you're not supposed to go in there anymore. Because there are some plans now to restore it or do something else there. I'm not really sure what's going to happen there. But there is a back way in, that all the local people know about, and you take your motorbike, and you can go around the lake, it's a big area. My guess is that they will try maybe to put some more hotels and resorts in there. I'm not sure. Kerry Newsome: 38:46 It's about 49 hectares I read. Anders Krystad: 38:48 It's huge. Kerry Newsome: 38:50 If you can go with a Vietnamese guide, anyone who wants to go there, because the Vietnamese guide will then either find a way to get there without paying any fee. There isn't an actual fee, but sometimes a small fee paid to someone to look the other way to let you in is the way forward. 39:20 The train, now, I've got a couple of people who are keen to take the train to Huế and from Da Nang and do it through the Hai Van Pass. Can you talk to us a little bit about that because that's something that I'm going to do when I'm there in September this year. So, for some reason, I haven't got around to doing it. But I'd like to, if you could speak to that. Anders Krystad: 39:50 The line is quite old. It was constructed by the French so it's twisting and turning and there's a lot of tunnels. But at the same time, it's one of the most scenic routes that we have going from the Da Nang to Huế, or the other way around. So, it goes relatively low close to the sea while as you cross the paths on motorbikes, you go up over the pass. Kerry Newsome: 40:16 You're quite high. Yeah. Anders Krystad: 40:18 I always say to people, if you're going both ways, take motorbikes one way and take the train the other way, the trains are cheap, but slow. There's major repair works being done on the tunnels, basically every night to keep it running. So, of course, there are some ideas about high-speed trains in the future that will be built more inland, but this little part of the old railway should be kept. Because it's simply stunning, some of the beaches and the mountain itself.Hai Van Pass means the place where sea and sky meet, it's very often covered with fog on the top. And sometimes when you go to the top of the pasture or above the clouds so that is also well worth seeing. And I think Tokyo Top Gear has an episode where they drive a motorbike over the pass. I think they named it the "Best motorbike trip in the world". And it's very popular to do that. Do both if you can. Kerry Newsome: 41:25 It's just sometimes when you've got a family and you've got young children and things like that, I think the train is a great option. Because then you can be looking out of the window of the train. So daytime train is strongly recommended. 41:46 Just talk to us about accommodation, the styles of accommodation that are available in Huế for everyone. One end to the other. Anders Krystad: 41:54 I would say it's far too many hotels. It's been an over establishment and very quickly, COVID set that back of course it still does. There's still a lot of hotels that haven't reopened yet. Even you can travel freely. The “Homestay” has become a new industry in a very short time, but when they say homestay, when you come there, there's nobody living there. So, it's not a homestay. It's just an Airbnb flat. But that could be nice. I think position is important. Make sure that they have convenient connections to the city center and to the sides. You can find homestays and cheap hotels throughout the whole province. But you're not allowed to, as a visitor to for example, to go to Nam Dong and to all Huế, which are the border areas and stay the night without informing the police, because its border areas, ethnic minority areas, and you're supposed to have a permit to go there. So, anything from-- of course, we have a lot of "nhà ở nghi", which is a guesthouse or a motel, some of them rent out per hour, besides not only to sleep, but most Vietnamese they need two and three and four generations in the same house. So sometimes Mum and Dad would like a little privacy and they use the hotels for that. In Huế, there are hundreds, if not 1000s of that kind of establishments. So, there's a lot. Kerry Newsome: 43:28 So, these are, what you call them guesthouses. Right. I haven't heard that before. Okay. What's the Vietnamese name for it? Anders Krystad: 43:38 Nhà ở, which means house and ngi, N, G, I. They are very cheap and some of them are really nice, they have been kept clean and they are well serviced, but some others have cockroaches. So, you have a look before you book, I think. Yeah. And you have the Two Stars, Three Stars, Four Stars and Five Stars and you can-- we have a beautiful one by the riverbank which is called La Residance. It is this form of French- but now it's changed the name, Azerai La Residence , It is 100% article building that used to be the mansion for the French governor during the time of the French in Huế. But that is probably one of the most beautiful hotels that I've seen anywhere in Vietnam. They have a great pool there. They have a great terrace with the restaurant and it's quite central. If you want to go high end that is a good one. If you want to go for the view, you have The Imperial which is 16 floors high, you have the new Melia Vin pearl ., which is really, really modern. But half of the rooms are facing the wrong way. So, you can't see the river. So, I recommend you maybe if you want to stay a few days in Huế, book for one night first and then if you like it, you prolong your stay because we don't have a pressure yet from tourism. So, it's both negotiable and very easy. Kerry Newsome: 45:24 Last piece of advice for anyone coming to Huế. Anders Krystad: 45:28 One very clear advice, don't stay only one or two days, stay longer, we have so much to offer. I think the average just before COVID was that people stay 1.25 nights, meaning that it's nothing you just come and run around to see some of the sights and then you leave. It doesn't pay Huế justice to do that. It's the history. It's the ancient history. It's the imperial history. It's the modern history. The food, yeah. As I told you, there are hundreds of local dishes and there are some great food tours done by some of the locals So, planning a little bit more time. Or if you are the first-time tourists make the round trip and then have a plan B which is to come back. Kerry Newsome: 46:24 Do that as you say that run around and then come back and spend some luxury time taking your time, and to breathe it in and do that. I strongly recommend that too. Really thankful for you to be on the show. Hope to see you in Huế, later in the year. Anders Krystad: 46:41 Yeah, absolutely. You're welcome. I will see you there. Good luck with your show. Kerry Newsome: 46:47 Thank you very much. Anders Krystad: 46:48 Okay, bye.

S4-15 Travelling as a solo woman What About Vietnam - S4 - E15 What makes female solo travellers love Vietnam? Kerry Newsome (3:57) Hello, Camellia Dinh, welcome to the about Vietnam podcast. How are you? Camellia Dinh (4:03) Hi, Kerry, thank you so much for having me here today. I am very well. Kerry Newsome (4:07) When we got together in Saigon. And we kind of talked through some ideas about what to talk about. I really liked the fact that we could talk about solo women and the empowerment of traveling Vietnam because it's something you and I both do. Yes. Like, I do it for some business and some leisure and I think you do it the same. Camellia Dinh (4:36) Okay. I think, yeah, I'm not sure about what it is for you in your own culture, right. As a Vietnam solo traveler. I mean, it is not something uncommon, from what I say, what I see that for the majority of time, even with my friends or the community that I know more than 10 people would prefer to travel with their partner, or with a group of friends as it is way more fun to have somebody to share things and experience with, that I don't know. Maybe I am just one of those who would like also to explore my own way of enjoying things, I would actually say that I'm not a solo travel professional or in any way. But I started to be a solo traveler since I was a teenager. Because for me, I'd be growing up far away from my parents. So I have a lot of opportunity to figure things by myself and try to find ways by myself as I was growing up. And as we keep getting busier as well, I find it extremely difficult, trying to arrange a trip with someone else. Whether even with my best friend, you know, they have different study schedule, go schedule, and we're just trying to find a date, we can go together and it is getting hard. And that was the moment that I think you know, forget it. Why don't we just go and travel and explore the world by ourselves. Because it will keep waiting, I don't know how long I will have to wait. And sometimes we'd prefer and I just want to travel during the quiet time when people's go to work, I will travel so I have all the scenery by myself, even the hotel I stay will a bit quiet as I can actually enjoy the other services and the views in front of me, etc. And I do prefer it that way. So I thought okay, maybe I just give it a try. And then I do it and see how it goes. But the more I start traveling, on my own, I seem to enjoy it even more. Well, but don't get me wrong, okay, if I have chance to travel with friends, family partner, I'm still happy to do so. Kerry Newsome (6:51) And you know, I concur. I'm exactly the same, I found myself finding it limiting. Because my friends were busy with their families or their jobs, etc. I had a little bit more flexibility in time. So yeah, I just, you know, kind of started doing some travel on my own. But I found it quite liberating. I know that's a strange word. But because I found it easy to do in Vietnam, and I'm speaking to all women who are listening to this travel podcast, and are thinking, oh, gosh, I don't know whether I could go to Vietnam on my own. Well, I mostly go on my own. So it forced me to, to look at Vietnam for what I wanted to experience, just like you were saying, it actually pushes you to discover things for yourself. And you can do it any way you like, because you don't have to ask your friends or your families that aren't OK, do they want to do it as well or whatever. So, I'm like you I love traveling with my family and my husband and all the rest of it. But that's a very different experience to traveling as a female and traveling solo. But I never feel odd or people I don't think look at me strange. Because I'm on my own. Like you've seen me traveling Vietnam. Do you think I stand out in the crowd? Or? Maybe I do because I'm blonde. But like, do you think people look at you like you're strange because you're traveling on your own? Camellia Dinh (8:27) Actually, some towns, sometimes Kerry I have maybe in the past, I still remember one of my very first trips and pick some of those destinations that seems to be more suitable to travel when you have a partner for example, you know Dalat. Our Highland area, right? So the weather there is beautiful. Also, very chill. You have flowers everywhere, beautiful scenery. And people often picture themselves traveling with a partner. And they say yeah, you don't want to go to Dalat alone, what you want to do there? I actually, I actually book my hotel for five nights, on my own. I mean, I was a solo traveler there. It was interesting. And at that time, it was eight years ago, and people asked me that question, are you seriously going to Dalat on your own? I say yes, I don't see anything wrong with that, especially all of my friends was lazy and cannot ask somebody to go with me. So I'm just going to find things on my own. And when I travel to the destination, the thing that fascinated me the most, of course, just like what you say, liberating rate, the word that you use, I feel free, because nobody stopped me from doing what I want. I eat whatever whenever I want. I go to different places. If I feel tired, I just go to sleep. I don't have to follow anybody's agenda. But the interesting thing that I had along the way was once I was sitting in a cafe on my own, and I saw one American couple, they come approach me and ask me a few questions because they say, well, it's their first time in Vietnam. And they have the feeling like they need to come and talk to me for the reason that they saw me, a female solo traveler in Dalat, sitting on my own. I was like, well, that's interesting. And I asked them, how their travel experience so far, and they say, I think Vietnam is a very safe country. However, my family didn't think so. The problem was, yeah, they travel from the US to Vietnam. And she has a very old grandmother, before she traveled to Vietnam, she told her grandmother that grand mom going to Vietnam and her grandmother got freaked out. Because all they was thinking of was the history the past and everything else. And they will say, yeah, I don't recommend you to go there. It's very dangerous, people probably going to have that sort of mindset, however when she came, she felt my god, like nobody actually asking question whether she's American or any issue when it comes to history and culture, and you feel very welcoming. And the fact that I shall go to Dalat, and she saw me there just to prove that Vietnam is very safe for even a solo young female traveler on her own. And they have that confidence to come and speak to meet because they were so curious as well. And they asked me a lot of question, and we became really good friends afterwards. So I thought, if I was traveling with a partner, I might not get a chance to talk to those interesting people. And, and that is one of the perks that we could only get when we also travel, we have chance to explore new things and paying attention to other people and things surrounding us. Kerry Newsome (11:54) Yes, I totally agree. I mean, I find myself in situations where I think people see me on my own. And they then feel like they can approach me because obviously, I'm kind of, I'm there on my own. So you know, I'm not talking to anyone, they're not going to disrupt me or anything like that. So, I often find I meet a lot more people. And in particular, with the Vietnamese, they also, as you talked about being curious, they're curious to find out about me, so they'll come and ask me questions, or they'll maybe want to practice their English, or they want to know what country I'm from, and things like that. So I don't think I would have got to have had as much interaction with people if I hadn't have traveled on my own. And I think if the Vietnamese nature, if like, your nature wasn't as friendly, and as open, I likewise, wouldn't have got the opportunities that I got. But because those two match up really nicely. It is I always feel lighter and brighter. And you know, someone quoted me recently and I kind of said, you know, I feel like I get an injection of color into my life because you know, there's beautiful coffee houses and tea houses and places to go. So, you know, you can be with amongst people, but still be on your own and feel very comfortable. Can we talk a little bit about community, you, you are a young professional woman? And obviously, you have a good knowledge of Vietnam. So when you're traveling? Do you like pick, like you talked about the Dalat and that's a place I have got yet to feature on my podcast. But I loved Dalat also. Is there particular places that you would say are better for the female traveler as far as enjoyment, safety things to do, one over the other do you think? Camellia Dinh (14:09) Well Kerry, this question is a little bit complex answer right? When it comes down to experiences, it's all depend on what we are seeking for right? And what sets us the other way around. I think it really depends on what we're looking at here. It's very difficult for me to say which place is better than the others, because sometime it depends of how we like to enjoy life in different ways. Some people would prefer to stay in big cities, for example, so obviously to our mega city, Hanoi or Ho Chi Minh City, or even some other city later now I'm going to be perfect for those who want to see a bit of a vibe seeing a lot of people on the street, a lot of things happening, events as such, right? Then we have much of our country is we have a lot of mountains, right? So the mountainous area also beautiful, is gorgeous landscape, and you get to be very close to the nature and our coastal area. Okay, the beaches are also amazing. And I don't know, it just depends on which part of Vietnam that we want to explore. And from what we say earlier, a Vietnam is pretty safe. And we know that the level of crime is extremely low in this country, I will say is very safe. But it also depends on how brave we are as a traveler and a female traveler in particular, when we travel to those areas, because other consideration that we need to take in would be on our language ability. If you were able to communicate with a local, because I will say, of course, if you are in big cities is very likely for you to be able to meet somebody who can speak English. But that might not be the same case when you travel to a province or village. Yeah, even though I say yeah, it’s safe. But then you might not feel safe if you travel somewhere that people don't understand you at all. So with that, we probably need to come with a little bit of preparation. But other than that, I think Vietnam is just so big when it comes into seeking different experiences. And I just cannot tell which experience will be better than the others. Kerry Newsome (16:22) Okay, then I'll share one of mine. And I'll share it from the experience of like, I'm a mature woman. So I'm traveling around, and I, I don't want to be worried about my safety, I don't want that to be part of my holiday. So, when I started doing this back in 2016, really on my own, I did one more. I did earlier trip in 2007. But I spent a month in 2016. And I decided to pick Hoi An as my base. And there was a couple of reasons that I chose Hoi An, and a couple of reasons I continue to choose Hoi an as a base, as it's got a very country style, feel to it, you can walk to most places, or you can get very short taxi rides to the beach or things like that. There’s a lot to do, there's a lot of things to experience, you can make lanterns or masks, do cooking classes, you know, go by the river, you can go to Marble Mountain, and you know, there's all sorts of things to do from there. But generally, it's quite chilled, it's quite easy. It's an easy place to maneuver. When I first came to Vietnam, I was struck with Ho Chi Minh City as my open door to Vietnam. It was like “whoa,” you know, like, I've really got to get my head around this, you know, I mean, over time, I’ve certainly conditioned myself. And I’ve found Saigon this time, much more manageable to get around. I think there's more street signs, there's more traffic lights, more one way streets. There is some better management of the flow of people around I think. it still gets, you know, like traffic jams, we all have that, etc. But it is easier to get around. But it's the city, you've got to keep your wits about you. You know, because it's so busy. Because there's a lot of people, there are more people that speak English there. But you, you know, like, I've heard some stories about people who get their cameras pinched, or their phones or, you know, they leave their handbag down or something and you know, then then it's gone. I mean, that's like that in any city in the world, to be honest. But I just think for people that are coming to Vietnam for the first time, they are female, they are a solo traveler, I would be recommending that you, you know, do a little tip toe into Saigon for a few nights because you have to there's just too much great stuff to do there. But then you might want to go and spend a bit more time in some quieter areas like Hoi An or Nha Trang or Danang even would be a little bit quieter, etc. And then you can come back and stay in Saigon again on your way home. So that's just from my experience. And that's you know, basically that's all I can share because that's what I know, that's what I live. You know your experiences you work in a hotel, which has got a tagline called “the home of the daring.” So I thought I'm talking to you, their sales and marketing director. She's working at a hotel that claims to be the home of the daring in the middle of Saigon Central. You know, she's a female traveler. She's definitely going to be able to talk about the empowerment of travelers because you meet them. Also I would understand at the hotel solo travelers, I met a couple when I was there. So, you know, when a woman is coming to Saigon, Saigon is your main city? Do you have any places that you would see them to enjoy the best of Saigon? I mean, I think the shopping is amazing. But that's because I know some secret spots. And I'm putting up a tour together…. about that ‘secret squirrel’, but I don't know. What do you think? Are there some things that a female in Saigon should definitely do? Camellia Dinh (20:44) Well, Kerry, I think using bravery in a very interesting topic. And thank you for mentioning our hotel. So our hotel Fusion Original Saigon Centre; we do have a tagline called the home of the daring. And I think that is it’s fascinating to think about it, and us the way we see here Vietnam as well, that is a country depends on the way we look at it. It’s the way people actually look at our history in the past, and say that we are very conservative in certain things. But the way we see here as a local, I was like anything and everything's happening in my country and we don't really have to put any limitation into the way we can export the things and learnings of a new culture. And I don't see Vietnam with a lot of subculture as such, for example, when it comes into even a sensitive topic, for example, like religions, or the LGBT community, or any things that some people might probably think that is part of the extreme in Vietnam. I think, we actually make it very easy for every single group of people to come and explore that includes solo female travelers that include the LGBT community that they don't feel discriminated for example, and different people from different religions example you’re Christian, Catholic, Buddhist or any other religion as well, we have something for everyone. So most people do not have a problem when they come in travel to Vietnam I will say for example, if you even come in from Islamic country, you're Muslim and you cannot eat pork in Vietnam, we actually eat pork every day you know, most of the time, we do that. But it doesn't mean that when they come to Vietnam they cannot find the right type of food because we can pick it up really fast when we know that. The travelers that come we listen to, and we diversify our offering to international tourists. How about food especially in the five star environment, we know what our international guests want. And we start to introduce that concept into many of our restaurants here in the city. So, this is one of those examples to tell you that yes, you can find anything and any trends that you can find for example, for female, when we start to care a lot more about wellness care, more about our dietary requirements. How to make sure that our daily consumption will never be in check you know, because we don't want to gain weight, but the foods we eat will have to be delicious. So, I think Vietnam’s cuisine is a great choice when it comes to that matter right. We love our food just for the reason how the resources is. But also how simple it is when it comes to the preparation and the clean factor as well extremely low compared to the rest of the cuisine in the world. So when it comes to that, obviously if the female travelers coming to my city or any other city in Vietnam, I would highly recommend to try. First thing is you probably want to try our cuisine okay? And I wouldn't hesitate to give you a list of some of our recommended restaurants for you to come and explore. Kerry Newsome (24:02) So okay, we'll have that list. Camellia Dinh (24:06) Yes, okay. So we do that and then you say shopping is an interesting experience as well right? When it comes to shopping. I will say different style either we can do, and no way you go to all the shopping malls, all those big ones, actually our hotel located inside a shopping mall, as you already know. But we also have the chance to experience shopping local in the local markets, by walking distance, or to go to some markets when you can actually see people prepare different things, especially women, like seem to be drawn to although tailor made clothing. Go there and get a beautiful Ao Dai for yourself that is custom made for your figure and all that sort of thing. So, they'll experience that kind of thing. One thing I want to introduce. Last week is a very interesting day that I went to in Vietnam is we call “Quê một cục”. And to translate in English, it means something like a countryside – Hair Salon? Kerry Newsome (25:16) Okay, so basically a hair salon. Camellia Dinh (25:19) Yeah, it's something like, that basically the ideas for them is to offer something belongs to the culture, okay, something happened years ago, it's not anything modern about that. But the way we put it because sometimes the Vietnamese language is interesting, and we just cannot translate into English. I hope you know what I mean. Or that when we came to that place, we heard the name in Vietnamese we start laughing, because that is something reminds us of the past when for example, when you find something a little bit old fashioned, but it still gives you a little bit feeling of the past and the history and culture and you kind of enjoying. We went to that shop, the hair salon, and they just have two very simple packages. One is to, to wash your hair with a facial treatment, okay, and although facial treatment, everything is made from natural herb and to be sure that you are safe in this environment. It is to be sure that all products provided by the shop are safe for your body and the environment. And as with traditional ways of doing thing, in the second package that we have is washing hair with a massage package for your shoulder, because we are office people, and we always need that. The session last for about half an hour, we were recommended to put away our phones, they told us to please take it away so that we can actually enjoy the moment in peace. So in that place, when you come to that, you know, I was very tempted to take some pictures of the place because I was impressed. It was so impressed. I couldn’t imagine that I can find such place in a city like Saigon. But then I was blown away by how beautiful it is. And people said to me: Just relax, close your eyes, and enjoy because life is very short not to enjoy the moment. So, I put my phone away completely and enjoyed the whole process. After getting my hair wash done. I was invited to a living room area when they did decorate the area in a way that reminds us of a Vietnamese traditional family that we have in the French colonial time. There are things that occur in a very indulgent style with all the tiles, furniture, the soft radio music. And they also have some groceries that you could find in that place, I remember many years ago when I was a kid, maybe six years old, I used to come to the local grocery stores to buy all those things. I loved the interesting language that they use to communicate at the place. And I feel like, okay, I’d love to share this experience to any traveler to Vietnam or especially those solo travelers who also have the need to for relaxation, but also learning also about culture. And this is what the Vietnamese was so proud to have. Kerry Newsome (28:27) That sounds wonderful, I'll definitely have to get the name of the place. And I'll put it in the show notes for everybody. And the translation and all that because I'll never be able to say it like, yeah, like you say it. So definitely, I'll put that in. It’s little things like that. I think as a solo traveler, you don't feel guilty about doing because you're not taking your time away from someone else or whatever. You can kind of be a little bit self-indulgent. And you can go, Oh, I think I'm going to have that half an hour or one hour treatment or you know and spoil yourself and I think those little gifts to yourself of kindness and, and just you know a little bit of compassionate time. We've been through some hard years. And I think that one of the things that I got from Vietnam in my last visit was just a feeling of invigoration. I was allowed to spend some time with some friends get invigorated by the kind of the upbeat vibe. Always think that Vietnam’s got an upbeat vibe I don't know, I can't explain it any other way but it's ‘up’ and wherever you go. There's kind of that maybe it's just me, maybe I just you know, attract all the upbeat people. Camellia Dinh (29:45) I don't know. Okay, even I'm Vietnamese living here in Vietnam. It’s the vibe, and you get to challenge yourself every day and things happening so fast and you see new things coming up your way, one after another. Today you see one event, then tomorrow you see something else coming up. It's very dynamic. Kerry Newsome (30:10) Very dynamic. And as I said, like as a female travel solo example, I probably wouldn't travel by myself in Australia. That's a funny thing to say, isn't it? I've gone to visit friends on my own? So, I've got friends in Cairns and Melbourne and whatever, and I'll go on my own, but I go straight to them. But just to go and take off like I take off around Vietnam. I would never do that in Australia. I don't know why, but I just wouldn't. And I think people would look at me as if I had two heads if I did. You know, in Vietnam, they don't look at me strangely. And I do meet some great people. And, you know, the other thing I want to take up with you is about the empowerment of women. In Vietnam, Vietnamese women, I often hear people saying, oh, “so and so” has got a business. But the real power behind that business is the wife, or the mother, or the daughter, or the female is the one that is obviously the enterprising one or the, you know, the energetic one or whatever. But I hear it a lot. Is that something you hear as well that women have the power behind the things happening? Camellia Dinh (31:40) - International Womens Day’s Kind of thing? Yes, that is a very interesting topic. And this has brought it in, I think, and the very right moment. There's a few days. I'm not sure. Actually, tomorrow already, is the 20th of October is our Vietnamese Women's Day. Okay, in Vietnam, we actually have two Women's Day, I don't think any other country would have that you might have a Mother's Day. Some of the Father's Day. But in here, we have two Women's Day. The first one is actually on the 8th March, called the International Women's Day, I think it was for Vietnam, being part of the Soviet Union in the past that we celebrate those days together. So that was one of our big day, celebrating International, international, and women’s. And the Vietnamese Women's Day, which is tomorrow is also founded by the Vietnamese union here for women to celebrate our work and what we contribute to the country. That just to one of those proof, to have the proof is to see how much Vietnam as a country being moving ourselves to empower women, and we celebrate our women as well. But I think sometimes when we, when I tried to explain things in certain way, I tried to look deeper into the history and culture and try to explain, because I do believe that everything happened for a reason. And it's happened for decades. I think it probably was something that days long ago and for the longest time that we wouldn't know. So I tried to file down and try to understand why the woman in Vietnam, like you said, have so much power. And you're right, the mother in the family, she actually is called for everything. Yeah. I think if we go back into 50 years, even during the Vietnam War, we often think about the women as when the family would be a loving mother because to their children, lovely wife, to the husband, but she also a fighter during the war. And when it comes into the economy, she's also a social worker. So, the women you get an Amahs, you're wearing so many different hats. And the row is very important. And just imagine one day, I come home and my mom stopped cooking. Like, we all ended up having nothing to eat. That is very traditional. The role of the woman in the family is already important. But what happened in the work environment. I believe in hospitality industry, but I think it happens to most our country as well. That the majority of workers in the hospitality industry and tourism industry are female. I think there are some unique attributes to that because women in general, we have the tendency to care for people. We take care of people better. We know how to talk better than men. I hope there's no men listening to us right now. Not saying we are better. Kerry Newsome (34:51) Forgive us. Camellia Dinh (34:52) I think so, and when it comes to communication, we know how to express our feelings better. So that also helps when it comes to understanding other people feeling. And for us here is about how to deliver customer service better as well that we need to put ourselves into the shoes of the customer to understand that. But also, once you understand that you will be able to know how to communicate with them in clear language, I think that is a gift that only women would have. So that is really in general. But when it comes into empowerment in Vietnam, and the only way we can create, we all know when we start looking to compare to other countries, sometime I would say okay, if we just have a quick look when it comes into the bigger situation in Asia, even coming to China, or Korea or Japan, I actually think in Vietnam, we are quite fortunate, in a way, because I do feel like the women in Vietnam are much more dynamic, of course, this is my personal opinion that I look into our history. And I was very impressed myself knowing that in many other countries, you used to have a king to rule in in the country, right? Throughout the history, you had either a king or an emperor, they were mostly men. But for Vietnam, we had our first female King since year 40. Four-Zero. So, when you travel to Vietnam, you see the road named “Hai Ba Trung”, right? It was named after the Trung sisters who were our first female kings. Until today, we still read about them as well as other Vietnamese heroines, like the Lady Trieu. And throughout the wars and history time, we had so many female fighters, they stood up for the country, and we've been looking up to them, and we learn from them. And that actually, I think they become the role model. When we have a closer look at that, yes, as Vietnamese women, we have our soft features, we have our traditional values that we want to keep to being feminine, to being lovable people. But when it comes to work, and when it come into protecting the thing that we love, we also real fighters. And when it comes to that, it just can help being so proud of who we are as Vietnamese women and the opportunity that we have today also to tie in different aspects of life. Kerry Newsome (37:31) Vietnam Women’s Museum And I think that's the aspect of females that I see in Vietnam as well, I see that strength. And I see when hardship comes, that the female sometimes is quicker to come up with a way to earn some money to feed their family. Because as you say, they have that care factor, they have that family that that is their primary. So I've seen women come up with these business ideas, or all of a sudden very quickly be able to earn some money to be able to sell some things at the markets or do something very quickly, that will be able to feed their family and give their family support, where the men are trying to obviously get bigger jobs and things like that. There female partner or their mother or the women in the family seem to rally together and are able to, I don't know, pull magic out of the air almost, you know, you'll find them in the markets. And I'll talk to someone they'll say yes, you know, she said she's her family's had a very hard time, she now comes in, she sells fruit and vegetables that she picks up in the farms, like just that very quick, that they will jump into a position of being enterprising and use that strength. The other thing I don't know whether you've been to in Hanoi, have you been to the Vietnam women's Museum? Yes. Isn't that a stunning place, and that is just floors and floors of, I guess the history. I think each floor is almost like a chapter of history in Vietnam, of women, and how they have progressed through history, including, as you say, fighting in the various wars for the French and the American etc. And seeing them you know, one minute a mother, the next week, you know, a gun the next week, you know, wearing an Ao Dai, you know, like they can wear many hats, as you say. And the minority groups a sectioned out, as well so that you can see how their lives were so totally and utterly dependent on the land and what the land could provide for their family. So really a great place to visit for everyone in Hanoi. Would be to spend some time to go to that museum. Definitely recommend it. Is there anything you want to finish off with any kind of “do's and don'ts” for our women who are listening who are saying, gee, I think I could do this, I can I could come to Vietnam on my own and do my own thing. Do we? Do you want to leave with any passing comments? Camellia Dinh (40:19) Well Kerry, anything with you being a professional travel up to Vietnam many times. So, I think we trust that you know so much that Vietnam is a safe country, and also now you have me here. So, all right, I'm so glad to be part of the podcast today. So, you know, you have one more contact. If I could recommend something for all female traveler, I would recommend as well we do research in advance, on anywhere we traveled to in the world, right, we need to do our research, not only about safety is number one, of course your safeties are important to us. I reassure that Vietnam is very safe, I still am just going to keep repeating say that Vietnam is very safe, but even more on to finding the experiences that are going to be more suitable for you based on the amount of time that you have in the countr; which places that you would like to travel; maybe you want to go to mountainous area, or beach or city area as well. And I think one of the greatest tip’a that I could get would be if you could find a friend in the country, in the in the host country for a example now Kerry knows me, she would contact me in advance, share with me the agenda, see if we can meet along the way. And from time to time. I keep telling Kerry, if you have any questions at all, if you need any help, even when you are in Hanoi, I mean, Saigon, because I can still help. My friends are everywhere. So, there's some certain benefits when you know, a local version. So that's something that you can rely on. Kerry Newsome (41:56) And it's kind of one of the reasons why I'm going to be putting some special tours together for 2023 that will have people that you're right, that can kind of give people a little bit more confidence that they can reach out to someone. I've also got a girlfriend in Danang, who, you know, I'll let her know that I'm coming. And she'll say, well watch out, you know, this week, is Typhoon maybe you know, whatever is coming, so or make sure you bring a jacket or things just little things like that. Or if I want to ask you about something in Saigon there's a show that it's coming up or, you know, we know the restaurant, would you recommend it for, you know, a family celebration or something like that. I really value that. I think that the local insight that someone like yourself or some people that I'm going to have really helps. I think it does give you just another level of confidence in your travel experience. Camellia Dinh (42:55) Kerry, you just mentioned also sorry, in the interview. You just mentioned that your friend remind you to bring a jacket. That's something I want to bring up as well because the weather in Vietnam is very interesting. And we say it's not just like another Bangkok or Singapore where it's all year-round weather. We have very cold winter in northern Vietnam. So, before we travel, probably a bit more research or especially having a friend who tell you if you need to bring a jacket that would be great. Right now, what I'm staying in Saigon we still have warm weather in central Vietnam is a little warm my right now, with all the rainy season we just had, in Hanoi it is starting to get really cold. Kerry Newsome (43:41) Freezing in Hanoi in January. I couldn't believe it. I was literally walking shops to find big puffer jackets, you know those ones with a big puffer line. I was just so cold. Believe it I thought you know what you what was I thinking? No? Jacket. So, it was one of the first podcasts. And one of the in the trip planning ones in my show. I made sure I'd clearly identified that. You know, it's not all hot all year round, everywhere. It's certainly the case. Thank you very much for being on the show. I've loved having you. I knew you'd be brilliant to talk about this subject. And just want to say thanks again for your time. Camellia Dinh (44:23) Yeah, thank you so much, Kerry, and I look forward to catching up with you again soon. Time stamps 4.36 - Factors influencing more solo female travel 8.26 -Camellia’s solo experience of Dalat 11.54 -Distinct advantages of solo travel 14.09 -Best places to visit in Vietnam 16.22 -Why Kerry chooses Hoi An as her base? 20.44 - Camellia explains Vietnam’s openness to all cultures, religions and communities 25.16 - A “hair” experience like no other to enjoy 31.40 - The history behind International Women’s Day 34. 52 - The story of a King being a Queen in Vietnam 37.31 - Vietnam Women’s Museum - a special place to visit 40.10 - Making a friend in Vietnam before you arrive can enrich your stay

Vietnam travel podcasts featuring stories and interviews about travel adventure in Vietnam destinations Adventure S2-24 Explore Bac Ha Markets Go to Episode S2-05 Explore Mai Chau Go to Episode S2-21 Vietnamese Trail Marathons Go to Episode S2-15 Sapa North Vietnam Go to Episode S2-09 Phong Nha Caves Go to Episode S3-25 One teenagers holiday views Go to Episode S3-06 Diving in Vietnam Go to Episode S3-22 Phong Nha Caves in depth Go to Episode S3-05 Ha Giang Loop Go to Episode S3-17 Mui Ne Beach bliss experiences Go to Episode S3-02 Mu Cang Chai Go to Episode S3-10 Top 5 Travel Podcasts Go to Episode S4-22 Trekking in Sapa A wide lens view Go to Episode S4-03 Travel Outlook 2022-23 Go to Episode S4-21 Beyond the Phong Nha caves Go to Episode S4-17 Vietnam Traveller Insights 2022 Go to Episode S4-16 Mystical Ninh Binh Go to Episode S5-E24 - Ha Giang: Insider Tips for Adventure Go to Episode S5-E15 - Yen Bai- Discover luxury in the heart of nature Go to Episode S5-5 - The famous Hai Van Pass experience: Insights from a seasoned traveller Go to Episode S5-E23 - Caving and Trekking in Phong Nha’s Tu Lan Cave System Go to Episode S5-E14 - Phong Nha. Family fun for everyone Go to Episode S5-E3- Heritage and discovery in Saigon, The Mekong Delta and Dalat Go to Episode S5-E22 - 10 things travellers may not know Go to Episode S5-13 - Out and About in Nha Trang - The city of 300 days of sunshine Go to Episode S5-E17 - Motorbike riding tips in Vietnam Go to Episode S5-E6-Explore the ‘Land of Lychees’ – Bac Giang with return traveller to Vietnam Go to Episode

Vietnam travel podcasts featuring stories and interviews about sustainable travel, wellbeing and health, and social enterprise travel in Vietnam Sustainable / Wellbeing S2-22 Wild Monkeys of Danang Go to Episode S2-12 Health and Wellness Retreats Go to Episode S2-18 Masterminding your trip Go to Episode S2-10 Dental Holiday in Vietnam Go to Episode S2-14 Social Enterprise Travel Go to Episode S2-02 Shopping Vietnam Go to Episode S2-13 Skin Wellness retreat Go to Episode S3-23 Your next wellness destination Go to Episode S3-17 Mui Ne Beach bliss experiences Go to Episode S3-15 Travel time in Vietnam P2 Go to Episode S3-07 Positive tourism Go to Episode S4-18 Luxury Brand Travel Experiences Go to Episode S4-03 Travel Outlook 2022-23 Go to Episode S4-02 Fine Dining Vietnam Go to Episode S5-E26 Wellness Tourim - A fresh take from Hoi An Go to Episode S5-E3- Heritage and discovery in Saigon, The Mekong Delta and Dalat Go to Episode S5-E22 - 10 things travellers may not know Go to Episode S5-E15 - Yen Bai- Discover luxury in the heart of nature Go to Episode S5- E11 - Out and About in Hồ Tràm Vietnam Go to Episode

S4-03 Travel Outlook 2022-23 What About Vietnam S4-3 –Vietnam Travel Outlook 2022/23 Interview with Conor Kelly & Kerry Newsome (Podswap) – ComebaCK Podcast #317 Kerry Newsome : [00:00:01] Xin Chau and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Today we have a bonus edition. I'm calling it a bonus because I get to sit on the other side of the microphone with Conor Kelly. This is a wonderfully executed interview by Conor Kelly as he is the host of his own podcast called The Comeback . And it's a great podcast where he talks to all kinds of people associated with Vietnam. And I think he's done like nearly, I don't know, 300 or something interviews. So he's really in their boots and all in podcasting in Vietnam. In the interview with me, he took the opportunity to ask some probing questions about my personal background to Vietnam. We discussed some of the things that I think will impact on tourism in the coming months, towards the end of 2022, and how I see things shaping up into 2023. I'm very, very appreciative of this opportunity. I think it's going to give you some insights into just how I'm tracking Vietnam and how I see it, you know, really coming back into vogue for travellers in the future. My thanks to Conor again as it was really great to sit on the other side of the microphone just for this once. Please enjoy. Stay tuned and we'll bring you the show. Conor Kelly : [00:01:34] Hello and welcome back to the Comeback Podcast . As usual, I am your host, Conor, and today I am delighted to welcome - What about Vietnam’s - Kerry Newsome currently based in Australia, where we are going to talk about life in Vietnam. "What about Vietnam" and more of what Vietnam has to offer going forward? I'm looking forward to this one. How are you? Kerry Welcome. Kerry Newsome : [00:01:58] Thanks very much, Conor. I'm really looking forward to the show, especially being on this side of the fence rather than on the other as per normal. Conor Kelly : [00:02:06] Yeah, it's quite weird, isn't it, when you get interviewed and you think, Oh, I'm not directing the conversation here, it almost feels slightly, I don't know, slightly odd. I'm still adjusting to it myself when I go on the other side. Kerry Newsome : [00:02:18] Yeah, well, you know, give me a score at the end and let me know how I go. Conor Kelly : [00:02:23] I'm sure it'll be great. I'm sure it'll be great. You get nine so far. What is your relationship with Vietnam? Kerry Just to get a brief overview, when did you first come to Vietnam? Kerry Newsome : [00:02:34] Okay. So I came in 2007 and I was part of like one of the very early kind of travellers to Vietnam. In fact, people my family and friends said, Gosh, you're going to Vietnam. Like I was going to some war zone still, you know. So I was a real pioneer. But there was a lady called Maeve O'Meara, and she was running tours to Vietnam food tours in particular because she ran a show called Food Safaris. You might have seen it or heard of it, and yes, so I went with that. And that was just your typical top to bottom, start in Hanoi, finish in Ho Chi Minh City kind of story. But I just fell in love with it. It just got to me. Conor Kelly : [00:03:24] Yeah, I see. And I love the fact you've mentioned that back in, say, 2007, there would be the connotation of Vietnam as this completely random location or a war zone, because I feel like back then and you can obviously clarify, it's absolutely nothing like this vibrant, cosmopolitan place, especially Saigon, that we see currently. Kerry Newsome : [00:03:45] Oh, absolutely. In fact, I can give you an example. In the in the city of Hoi An there is the tube on river that runs through the main town. Well, the the other side of the river there was just shanties. There was there was no restaurants, there was no night markets, there was no hotels, there was nothing. There was just like I felt like, why do they have a bridge? Because it actually goes nowhere and there's nothing there. Of course, that's changed dramatically as there is a whole new life over the other side of the bridge. And it's just a totally different old town now. Conor Kelly : [00:04:27] Yeah, and I've almost got two questions in one. The first one I'll ask and then I'll move to the second. The first being, what exactly was it about Vietnam that made you fall in love with it? Kerry Newsome : [00:04:40] Look, a couple of things happened for me during that first trip. I met an Australian expat and she was starting up or in the very early stages of a charity or an NGO in Vietnam looking to assist or sponsor young girls in their education in Vietnam. And her name Is Linda Burn and the foundation is called the Children's Education Foundation . I just ‘jelled’ with her and because she was Australian, there was just so much she could sort of relate to me so that I could kind of better understand and see it and see Vietnam through her eyes. So she was kind of pointing things out to me that that just helped with a little bit of relativity. So, you know, meeting expats over, over there was kind of one thing. And then just the Vietnamese themselves. I met another girl that I've also stayed friends with since that time, and just over that time I've just grown further in love. So it was probably the people. And up until then, I'd done a fair bit of travel through Asia, you know, Thailand, the Philippines, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. And I just never got the same vibe and feeling of welcome and warmth and caring that I did in Vietnam. So I thought, no, this, this is more me, this. I feel safer. And I was certainly doing a lot more travel solo at that time. So yeah, that, that kind of kept me coming back. Conor Kelly : [00:06:23] I can imagine so. And the second part of that question was, now that it has changed so dramatically from 2007 to 2022, where you have all these new things such as the Hoi An Bridge we referenced Phu Quoc has taken off in that time we have my Mui Ne, which is very popular, Ho Chi Minh, completely different ball game,I can imagine Hanoi is similar. How has your relationship with Vietnam changed from perhaps 2007 to now, based on all of the changes it's gone through? Has it been impacted in any way? Kerry Newsome : [00:06:56] That's a really big question, Conor, because there's kind of life up to COVID and then there's life after COVID. I mean, my relationship changed with Vietnam probably most predominantly in 2016. And one of the trips that I did back, I did a long stay. I stayed for a month, and I actually moved into a situation where I got offered a job and I was offered the job to sell a major hotel group, a Vietnamese hotel group that was literally building from the ground up at the time in Hawaiian. And they had on their drawing board to build five hotels, which they did. And because I had a flight centre background, I'd kept all my contacts in flight centre over the years. I mean, it's a pretty cliquey industry, the tourist tourism industry and working with some pretty influential people. I was able to win the flight centre account, so I kind of went from a, a travel tourist, you know, just explorer to a little bit more of a business relationship. So I'm not answering you question directly, but I guess I started to view Vietnam through different eyes from a more tourism and tourist aspect, and that changed the way I looked at the landscape and what was happening in travel and how the travel boom was about to take off. Kerry Newsome : [00:08:34] And just to give you some relationship to the travel boom, so in 2019 there, the Vietnamese government reports that they would receive something like 18.3 million tourists into Vietnam. And the rate from 2007 to 2018 was dramatic. It was just exponential. There were buses on buses. They couldn't even fit the buses into places like Hoi An and they had to park them outside the town and ferry people in on like golf carts, etc., and cyclos. And then COVID hit and COVID hit and it dropped to 3.8 over two years. And that was only due to business development and of course, diplomats and government officials, etc., that made up that small amount of 3.8. Now we're at 2022. The doors are open as of March. So, you know, it's it's a new it's a new landscape again, because not everything survived COVID. And I, I don't know, I'm I'm back in September. I have to see it from my own eyes now. Conor Kelly : [00:09:53] Yeah, absolutely. And we're all going to talk more later in the conversation about what that means for tourism going forward in Vietnam 2022. But can I get your reaction to COVID? Where were you based in Australia when COVID hit back early 2020, and how was your reaction to the developments? Kerry Newsome : [00:10:13] Well, it was funny. I was actually in Vietnam up until the 19th of March 2020, so I was over there on a trip I used. I was doing 2 to 3 trips per year up until that point between 2016 and 2020. And I was due to leave on the 29th to come back to Australia. But my husband was saying to me, look, I think this thing called this COVID thing, I think it's going to take over the world and they're going to name it as a pandemic. And the country is going to shut you out if you don't come home. Now, by that stage in 2020, I had been working and I still do work for what they call a Vietnam inbound tour operator. So that's a Vietnam destination management company. And my boss in Hanoi was saying, Kerry, look, I know things are kind of a little bit nervous here in Vietnam at the moment, but I think they're going to shut the doors and I think Australia is going to shut you out as well. So we need to get you home. Kerry Newsome : [00:11:29] So I literally got on one of the last few flights to get back to Australia and I've got to admit to you, I was in denial. I was like, I don't believe this, I, I just cannot believe that this is happening. And while it was the 19th of March on the way to the airport, to Danang Airport, you know, my driver got. Pulled over and I got tested for temperature test, etc. and I'd heard some gossip that there were people and backpackers, etc., that they'd kind of put in some hotel or some kind of Vietnam establishment and were kind of ferrying food into them because they were worried that they were transmitting. I mean, there was real like feeling that the tourists had brought the disease to Vietnam. So if you weren't wearing a mask walking around in those days and thankfully between the hotel group and my boss, I was taken very good care of. But, you know, there was there was a lot of nervousness in the air, so to speak. It was it was quite scary. Conor Kelly : [00:12:48] I can imagine. And from what happened then, you flew back to Australia, you were able to get through that, I guess ordeal in the initial stages. What happened next as in obviously tourism was hugely affected your industry due to COVID. So what happened for you? I guess from a personal and professional sense once you were back and say April 2020. Kerry Newsome : [00:13:10] Yeah. So I got back and of course Australia did close the doors and Vietnam at that stage really for most of 2020 was in a good place. The numbers were very low. The country was really dealing with it very, very strictly. But certainly life pretty much as normal. You know, expats were being asked to go home to leave the country if there was any confusion as far as their visa status was concerned. But for the most part, Vietnam was okay. It was just that the rest of the world wasn't. So my boss, you know, I have a very good relationship with my boss. And I just said, well, I don't think I'm going to be selling any tours into Vietnam from Australia in the foreseeable future. What do you want me to do? And she said, Well, because you've got a marketing background, would you be open to move your headspace into marketing so we can keep our brand and our messaging and our communications up during this time? We wait and see what happens. So that's what I've been doing for the last two years. Conor Kelly : [00:14:26] I see. And what does that actually entail? Say, for somebody who isn't familiar with marketing or can't quite understand how you would be able to do that when you don't have access to Vietnam unless in special circumstances? What sort of things have your job entailed since 2020, up until this point that we speak currently? Kerry Newsome : [00:14:48] Okay. So the main part of my job is to keep our communications with our current database. So that would involve creating newsletters, updating covered reports so that we keep our customers informed so that they are aware of the status and just how the country was performing in that way. So that if there was any groups or if there was any plans or anything already in vogue that they knew how to advise their clients because, you know, it didn't kind of go 'snap, crackle pop' all in one day. It kind of crept up on everybody. And every country was in varying stages of COVID until probably late 2020, when it was apparent that it was all over the world. And it was pretty serious. And, and until we got the the vaccination status and things like that. So it was really important for me to keep communication. So that was the first thing. So communicating with our customers, creating newsletters, creating blogs and working with operators still in the country dealing with it. In addition to that, we have social media platforms, so making sure our branding and our messaging there was still strong because, you know, there was a lot of companies over the ensuing months that have just kind of dropped off the earth. You know, they they weren't able to survive for varying different reasons. And it's been really tragic, really tragic. And while we have been able to maintain a very small business as we support Vietnam Airlines, the company I work for, that, you know, it was important that we stayed on the radar, so to speak. Kerry Newsome : [00:16:44] So social media was a very big part of that. And then, of course, in addition to that, there was just creating the right messaging. So on our website, making sure that the information on there was up to date. And if we were looking at developing new plans and new tools, etc., we got into working what those new tours would look like and designing those. So we did a lot in the technological background because for the first time we actually had time to work on the business and on the business model. So we were able to improve that as well. So, you know, very broad spectrum, but it kept my hand in and it was also the time, it was actually May 11th, 2020, that I decided a good way for me to keep my personal profile in the Vietnam space would be to create a podcast, and by doing the podcast I would be able to keep connected and have a really good reason to stay connected. If I was to connect with previous travellers, operators and guides, etc. in the country so that people could keep Vietnam on their radar, I guess, so to speak, for the future when we were over the COVID situation. Conor Kelly : [00:18:06] Absolutely. And talk to me a bit more about the podcast, please. Kerry, 'What about Vietnam' ? How has it developed since you began on May 11, 2020? Kerry Newsome : [00:18:16] Well, it's it's really developed some legs, to be honest. It's gone much further than I thought it would. I must admit, in the beginning there was a huge learning curve for me in the sense of learning some new technology. I knew that I was going to be up against the situation where 99% of my guests were going to be remote. So I was going to be talking to somebody who would travel to Vietnam that either was still in Vietnam or had been to Vietnam and had since gone back to their country. I mean, I've spoken to people who have done river cruises up the Mekong, but it's you know, I was talking to them in Portugal because they'd just got home. I was talking to one guy who took some fabulous photos of Ha Giang and had a fabulous trip and just spoke about that area so eloquently. But he was back in the US as well. [00:19:16] So the challenge around technology was there. But I really wanted to create a very polished product and I wanted it to be informative. And I'm sure you're up against this as well, is that you want it to be interesting, but you know, you don't want it too serious and you want it to be fun and just relatable so people can kind of relate to it, I guess, and could say, Oh yeah, I could see myself doing that. Or No, maybe not going to a snake restaurant for lunch with a bottle of champagne and that no, I don't think that's me, that sort of thing, if you know what I mean? Conor Kelly : [00:19:58] No, I do. Yeah. Making it relatable for the listeners and also connecting with the guests. Does it change from guest to guest? For example, you might get a couple who've gone up along the Mekong, then you'll have someone from Hanoi, some more from Danang. Does it differ from people across the country in different areas, or would you say there's a typical profile of someone you would interview? Kerry Newsome : [00:20:21] No, there's no typical. Absolutely no typical. Like and that's. I think one of the or I'm hoping one of the joys of the program is that each program is unique. Each each show is different and people are not going to know what to expect. I have kind of purposely done that. I've wanted to surprise and and bring new aspects of Vietnam to the the show. As in I didn't want to just talk about destinations. You know, they can go to a guidebook and they can go to Google for that, you know,... Type in Sapa, type in Hanoi. It'll give you all the stats, the population and, you know, Ho Kiem Lake. So I wanted to add in experiences, I wanted to talk about what, what had people done that was interesting??? Or what should people look out for or you know. Yeah, just maybe the "must do list". Is it kid friendly? You know, is it good for solo people? What about that river cruise? Did that feel safe? You know, like I really wanted to kind of mix up the destination, the guest and the experience all in the one show. Conor Kelly : [00:21:35] Absolutely. No, I definitely understand the variety aspect. I tried the exact same with Comeback because I don't want the listener coming to the episode thinking that they know who's going to be on or they can tell what's going to come up. Rather, the mystery aspect and an element of surprise. However, do you see any patterns emerging with your guests? As in, do people say similar things alongside the concept of Vietnam and what to experience? If you're in a certain place, are there any patterns that you spot or is it quite difficult to gauge with such a variety? Kerry Newsome : [00:22:10] Good question, Conor. That's a really good question. I might be accused of a pattern that I see developing in the sense that most people have got good things to say about Vietnam. I mean, there's a few that have had a few grimaces about things, and I certainly want to keep it real. You know, I don't want people to go, oh, like it was fantastic when it really wasn't, you know,.... They were a bit disappointed because there was a lot of rubbish and there was a lot of that sort of feeling. But it's different because my guests vary from age from their relationship to Vietnam. Some might be guides, some might be previous travellers, some might work for a Wellness company, some might be a massage therapists. Some might run cooking schools. Some might decide to live there because they went to visit and found that they love the place. I mean, a recent guest of mine is talking about art in Vietnam. I mean, when you go to a gallery, do you really know what you're looking at when you're looking at some of the the art in that gallery? What is some of the symbolism, you know, aspects like that? So I can't really say there's a trend, but if there is a certain appetite for the typical guest, it's probably the ones that have got, you know, positive things or uplifting or good things to say about Vietnam, for sure. Conor Kelly : [00:23:48] And this might bring me to ask about your personal experience, Kerry, your personal experience on Vietnam. What have been some highlights for you in terms of living and working here? Kerry Newsome : [00:24:03] Look, I've had so many lovely experiences. As I said, I've been travelling back and forth two or three times a year. I do long stays each time, so I'm there probably 2 to 3 months a year. So I'm almost like the part time expat and I get accused of that in places and they go, Oh, are you back? But I probably think I just live down the road, but I haven't seen them for a couple of couple of months. But I, i. I loved a place called Ba Be Lake. I don't know. Have you been? Conor Kelly : [00:24:37] I haven't been there, no. Kerry Newsome : [00:24:39] Well, that was a small trip I did in 2017. And it's such a beautiful place. It's it's almost like this. It's a challenge to get there. It's about a five hour trip from Hanoi, but the Ba Be Lake area is just so special. It's got caves where you're there's probably only you and four people there. The lake itself and the area is so untouched, it's just hard to believe that time has happened and it somehow missed that place. So Ba be Lake is probably one of my most beautiful, serene, tranquil experiences. I mean, I've had a fabulous time in Hoi An and watching Hoi An grow. It's certainly developed over time and and become richer with experiences, but I'd say Ba Be Lake is probably one of my best so far but yeah a lot still to go. Conor Kelly : [00:25:53] For sure and going towards the comeback theme and almost the opposite of that question. Living abroad, especially in Vietnam, has so many positive aspects to it, but it also brings its challenges. What have been some of the most difficult parts for you about living in Vietnam for the period that you have? Kerry Newsome : [00:26:13] Well, remembering that I only travelled on a tourist visa, so I'm essentially not living in Vietnam, be it that I go for a month each time, you know, I might go in March, I might go again in July, August, and then I might come back in October. So I haven't kind of had that living experience because I'm mostly staying in hotels, resorts, etc., home stays. So I'm not actually living and having to do the living experience because as I'm sure you would have a lot to share on that corner. Conor Kelly : [00:26:52] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's been three years now and there is definitely it's trials and tribulations, but overall it's good, but it can be quite tricky, perhaps making the sacrifices of living away from home and being involved in a community where there's still that different mindset on so many different areas, where I'll speak to my Vietnamese friends and they won't ever criticise their government whilst back in the UK it's very common to criticise the government and just little things like that, to be honest with you, can make it slightly tricky at times, but overall it's a worthwhile experience. Kerry Newsome : [00:27:26] Yeah. But big. I'm sure its life changing for you on a lot of levels. Conor Kelly : [00:27:32] Yeah. No, I can definitely say that, especially coming here as I turn 22 and being 25 in August, spending your early twenties in Saigon. It's a yeah, it's an interesting one to be honest. I probably would recommend. Yeah, but there's definitely things to look out for. I find a lot of the time it can be, and I don't mean to hijack the podcast here. It can be opportunity versus escapism, where Saigon can offer so many different things for good or for bad. The opportunity or escapism comes up as a huge theme for me when I associate with the hundreds and hundreds of people I've met here as the two primary reasons for people to move and then make their avenues throughout here. Kerry Newsome : [00:28:13] Yeah, but you're right about the mindset, too. You can't expect them to think like a Westerner to relate to any of those things. So, you know, just because of their history, because of the way they act, you know, it would be an eternal learning experience. I know. Even working with Vietnamese. And even though they can speak English, they they can't they can't really comprehend what what other what what is the meaning between the lines, if you know what I mean. Conor Kelly : [00:28:44] Yeah. No. Kerry Newsome : [00:28:45] And they can't do those kinds of interpretations. And you know, when I might say, oh, you know, they don't like this accommodation and they'll go, oh, why? You know, well, does it really matter? They don't like it. Conor Kelly : [00:28:58] Yeah. Kerry Newsome : [00:28:59] So we have to find them a new hotel because they have said this and this and this Oh, but we think it's really nice. I know, but we have to change it. Conor Kelly : [00:29:10] So yeah, that's fine. Kerry Newsome : [00:29:12] One of the hundred that are out there. Conor Kelly : [00:29:15] Yeah. you do have to ppen your mind a bit more and recognize that it might frustrate you, that example. But you know, that type of thinking does work in Australia or England, but this is Vietnam, and we've chosen to be here. So you have to play by their rules. Kerry Newsome : [00:29:31] Yes. Conor Kelly : [00:29:32] Absolutely. And what I'm thinking here, Kerry, is tourism 2022, I think it was last month or two months ago. Now we're recording this early May in March 2022, when borders started to open. Open. And I've seen hints of tourism. I've not really been to say the boybands of this world so much so far, but I know tourism has restarted. Conor Kelly : [00:29:54] What do you see? This might be tricky to answer the future of tourism in Vietnam from 2022 onwards. Kerry Newsome : [00:30:03] Look, I think there's an appetite definitely for recovery. I think the recovery will still be a little bit slow or cautious. I'm already talking to travel agents again, and there's definitely enthusiasm. However, no one's putting their money on the booking, if you can understand. So people are definitely expressing interest and I think it's a little bit about their wanting to kind of see the transition manifest itself. So they're wanting to see the traffic, they wanting to see the increase in airline frequency and flights. They're wanting to judge just how the accommodation is looking, you know, what is still open. So once again, marketing is a very important part and even what I'm doing with the podcast, 'What about Vietnam" is kind of a statement and a question as in. People used to say, you know, Oh, you know, we go to Bali, we go to here, we go to the Philippines, we go to Thailand. And I used to say, "what about Vietnam?" So, you know, when I say that now, I say," what about Vietnam?" As in the borders have opened again. And I think I think Vietnam is very keen to bring back a healthy level of tourism. I do think it went a little bit nutso, like leading up to the pandemic. I think there is an interest in getting the country to a sustainable level of tourism better managed. I mean, we may not be seeing in Vietnam as many Chinese tourists as we have. Kerry Newsome : [00:31:47] We may not even be seeing any Russians or many Russians. I'm talking to somebody just next week about Nha Trang, which has been traditionally a very attractive resort area for the Russians. I mean, I don't know. So there's there's still a lot of questions on the table. And certainly what's happening in Ukraine is, you know, is affecting all of us. But as far as resuming travel and how travel moves forward, I'm positive. I'm feeling very positive. I'm booked to come back in September. Some of my guests that I've got lined up in the next few weeks are talking about some of the aspects of recovery that is certainly enticing and attractive, as in, you know, restaurants that have come back on board in the area of fine dining. I'm keen to see this new gallery that is opened up in in Hue, which Bridget March shared with me on a show last week. So even just from my guests and I'm trying to talk to more that are in Vietnam at the moment. And I'm going to be talking to you, Connor, about Con Dao, remember? We you know, I feel the I feel the positivity in the air. And I feel even back here in Australia, talking to travel agents, there is very much an eagerness for them to start selling Vietnam and open the doors back because everybody that, you know, that comes to Vietnam, you know, nine times out of ten has a great experience. Conor Kelly : [00:33:25] Right. I see. And that's the prediction for going forwards in 2022 and beyond. Do you think there can be some downsides to this? For example, if you are Russian and there won't be as many or Chinese or any other, I guess cons to increase tourism. It's great to get people back in Vietnam, of course, to visit and to see. But can there be some downsides? Kerry Newsome : [00:33:47] Downsides as into too many or not enough or particular areas or? Conor Kelly : [00:33:54] Yeah, my thoughts were initially too many because now it's been two years, I would assume, and you might be able to tell me more. The people would be dying to get into Vietnam and that would cause a boom. But is that the case or how would you see it? Kerry Newsome : [00:34:09] Uh, look, I think there's some people that think that I'm probably not one of them. I don't think it'll be fast and furious. I think it will be more it will be slower and deliberate. I think I think the whole world has changed just totally philosophically about travel. You know, there's much more thought we were we were getting on and off planes. Let's face it, pre-COVID, like on and off the bus, it was you know, the whole world was almost visa free. Now we've got much more complications about travel. There's certain age groups that are probably a little bit more fragile than they used to be. So you, baby boomers, etc., that are a bit more nervous. I mean, I know people that were avid travellers beforehand, before COVID and now are much more hesitant, and I think it's going to take a little while for those to settle down. I mean, the die hards like me and the others I think will definitely be out there again and very keen, but it has got more complicated. So I think that complication has to get a little bit more rationalised. And I think there's some talk in Vietnam at the moment that by June some of the levels of entry to the country will be even taken further away. So it'll be so much easier to enter the country. So I think the easier it gets, the more settled that will happen. Now to your question about is that going to be bad for Vietnam, as in we're going to get too many tourists? Look, I hope that's going to get better managed. Kerry Newsome : [00:36:01] I think there was over tourism definitely leading up to the pandemic. And, you know, I hear that there's been some great areas of improvement as far as cleaning up the country and areas that have flourished, you know, forests and and rivers, etc., that have kind of been brought back to life because, you know, there hasn't been the treading of the tourist. So I hope there's going to be some more sustainability on that on that level so that there can be a positive imprint. And there's certainly levels within Vietnam, tourism and the government talking about that. And I've even been speaking to some of those working groups and people that are steering those committees. So, you know, I'm hoping there's going to be more thought all round, but I don't want people to miss out on Vietnam. I just I do think it's a country to discover, but it's a country also that people kind of tend to hit the main three or four spots and then they go. And I think there's a lot more to Vietnam than those three main destinations. So, you know, if we could maybe encourage in our trip planning and our tour advice, you know, talking about Vietnam, we might kind of broaden the brush so that people come back several times and not just to the same places. Conor Kelly : [00:37:27] Absolutely. No. I love the fact that you've mentioned that about the broadness and the vast amount of areas in Vietnam that can be explored instead of just, say, Danang, Ho Chi Minh, Hanoi, for example. There are so many. And it brings me to, I suppose, a hidden gems kind of question. Are there any places that perhaps aren't as popular for tourists that you would expect or that deserve more recognition in Vietnam? And if so, what are they? Kerry Newsome : [00:37:57] Yeah. Like, it's it's funny. You know, there definitely is those main destinations that have really had extreme exposure on your Instagrams and your Google sites are just full of images of those places. And yet there's some and I know you and I just talked briefly about Con Dau, like it is a hidden gem. [00:38:26] There's a place called Da Lat, and not many people think to go to Da Lat. And if you went to Da lat and you saw Everlasting flowers, like flowers that actually never die, I've seen strawberries the size of apples almost there. You go into the hills and you'd swear to God you're in some European country. The waterfalls, you know, there's no gating around them. You can put your hands out and you can actually touch the water. It's that accessible and it's that beautiful and it's that untouched. But they're not they're not destinations that have been big in promotion and social media. I mean, places like Ha Giang, places like Sapa, places like I'm thinking of Ninh Binh now. A lot of people talk about how Ha Long bay but then they don't talk about Lan Ha bay and they don't talk about Ninh Binh as much, where I think Nin Binh is even probably more interesting than Ha Long bay. Gosh I could go on and on. I mean Phong Na now Phong the caves came up when they discovered the largest cave in the planet, on the planet, believe it or not, in 2009. And you know, that's only 2009, Conor. Kerry Newsome : [00:39:52] That's kind of in our lifetime, you know. And I got to talk on the podcast, would you believe, with one of the guys, British guy, who was actually part of the group that stumbled like they literally stumbled on this cave? It's like about seven kilometers. You can fit Big Ben in the cave. So, you know, it takes four days to go from one end to the other. And, you know, it's it's starting to capture great interest, but it's for your, you know, your real intrepid adventure caving kind of person. But it's opened the world up to there's more to Vietnam than just, as you say, you know, the bustling city of Saigon, Hanoi, Hoi An and possibly Danang. I mean, people never think about Vietnam, about kite flying. I mean, kite flying.( Correction should be Kite surfing) The kite Surfing capital is, I think, in South East Asia. One of them is Mui Ne. Nobody told me about that. Nobody told me about. There was deserts in Mui Ne... Hello. I mean, it's it's just a world discovery tour!!!! And that's what I love about it, is that I haven't been back to Vietnam once and done everything the same. I managed to go somewhere else. I mean, Quy Nhon is a place that has only just come up on the roadmap. There's now a new ferry system to go to Ly Son Island. Now, I've been meaning to go to that island for, I think the last five years, but it was such an awkward trip and you had to get this bus. Kerry Newsome : [00:41:38] And it only ran on certain times and then you had to kind of connect up with the ferry. And if you missed the ferry, then you didn't get it. So now there's this straight ferry, straight to the island. Guess where I'll also be going and I'll be able to go to that from Hoi An. An SO like my podcast is kind of a discovery tour for me as well. So I'm learning about new destinations as the new destinations are coming on and I'm trying to expose them and give them, you know, the benefit of insights so that people that have been there or people that are in the process of developing, I'm talking to them. So my listeners kind of get the the real insights. So I don't have to wait for a Lonely Planet guide to come out each year and hope to God it's got the most up to date information. And of course you can Google everything, but it's not the same as someone telling you, Look, we went there, look, don't do that. Forget going at that time of the year because it just rains all the time and you're missing the best parts. And, you know, so it's it's, you know, it's like going to Ireland, isn't it? And going to Cliffs of Moher my hair. Sometimes you see nothing. And then the fog lifts and other times it looks fabulous. So it's all the benefit of insight. Conor Kelly : [00:42:51] Absolutely. Kerry Newsome : [00:42:52] And Cliffs of Moher, I meant. Conor Kelly : [00:42:54] Okay, one thing we. And at the beginning was perhaps leading up to the pandemic over tourism and how it then can be managed from now on. Now, tourism is a thing again. How can tourism be managed, in your view, Kerry to be the most effective possible for Vietnam and avoid, say, over tourism or under tourism or any complications? What do you think are the most effective ways for Vietnam to tackle tourism going forward now? Kerry Newsome : [00:43:24] Geepers. You know, I need a job on the Vietnam Tourism Board after this because I'm sure it's coming up on their agenda similarly. How do they do that? Look, one of the ways where they were starting to to stem the traffic, I guess, of over tourism was in the freedom of giving out licenses for "homestays." I think at one stage in Hoi An alone and probably I have I've had more to do with the Quang Nam area than anywhere else, so I can speak more proficiently about that area. So they were I think they stopped at 318 licenses to have a homestay. And what they learnt from stopping that was that they had to put some limit on how many hotels and how many home stays, you know, how many beds were they going to allow in a vicinity? Now, if you look at the township of Hoi An and the Old Town itself, it's only about two and a half kilometers in size. And then if you build all of these accommodations of course you're going to get into trouble, as in the city is not going to be able to cope with that traffic. You're going to have a trodden city where you're starting to damage it and you're going to ruin that UNESCO's World Heritage site. So I think there's a look at accommodation and there will be some input or there's going to be some checking on just how many they're going to allow, how many beds and how many tourists they're going to allow. Kerry Newsome : [00:45:12] So there's going to be also, you know, how many flights they're going to let in to certain areas. So, you know, the frequency of flights and the size, I think that's going to be another element because they're that's where the numbers come accommodation and people into hotels, into airports. So we have to sleep them somewhere so that's probably where it starts. And then they'll look at, you know, eateries and things like that to to manage that. I mean, overtourism is definitely a, a problem to the environment. I mean, there's enough studies around the world to verify that. But how each government manages it around the world is, is very different, is very unique. And even within Vietnam, because there's so many provinces, each province tends to manage their own tourism, their own way under their own guidance or jurisdiction as they see fit. So there's not, you know, anything particularly consistent, but there is working parties and groups and thankfully, I've got some good ears into those. And I am hearing some good, some good noise out of those that they are going to be looking at, at licensing and just how they can manage, you know, the footsteps around Vietnam. Conor Kelly : [00:46:35] Absolutely. And I suppose coming towards the end of the conversation, Kerry, this might be tricky again. And I feel like we have alluded to it at points, but what would your ideal scenario be in Vietnam, say, 2022, 2023 and 2024 ? What ideally would you like to see happen? Kerry Newsome : [00:46:55] In respect to? Conor Kelly : [00:46:57] In respect to the tourism reopening and what that would mean for the country. Kerry Newsome : [00:47:02] Look, I think they're not even going to have to work very hard at a slow intake of tourism. I think that's just going to happen organically. I think the making it easy for people to enter the country but keeping the visa level under some jurisdiction, I mean, you'll notice that they pretty much put it back to what it was prior to COVID. So for those 80 countries, you can come for 15 days. But for the other countries, you're maximum stay under a visa application is 30 days. So during COVID, there was a lot of expats that had to leave the country because they weren't there kind of essentially legally. And there was a lot of workers that were working there and taking Vietnamese jobs. So they've also had to leave. So in some ways, covid's been a bit of a godsend for Vietnam to clean up Vietnam. I mean, Vietnam's got 96 plus million population. So it's got a thriving domestic tourism aspect to it, and it's also a thriving country. So even its own domestic travel is on a boom and there are more Vietnamese travelling even just this holiday. I think you even said recently I heard you talk to somebody and saying, you know, you want to go where everywhere everyone else isn't going because it's going to be that crowded. Kerry Newsome : [00:48:45] Yeah. So I'm hoping that, there is a push on trying to broaden the scope of travel experiences for people and for operators to take a very sustainable approach. So in other words, instead of before them having a group of 30 or 35 people, their maximum might be 20 so that they will take smaller groups. I'd like to see that happen in the future so that the people in the groups are getting a better experience and we're not bringing too many in at the same time, [00:49:22] I think I'd like to see a growth in the development of the hospitality industry in the training area, and I think that's also going to happen of its own accord because it's by demand. I mean, I'm hearing in Ho Chi Minh City there's a lot of hotels that just can't get manpower back because a lot of people lost their jobs. They went home to their families and villages to kind of wait it out. And so I think the you know, there's going to have to be an investment and certain hotel groups, I think, are going to step up to that because they'll see the opportunity. Kerry Newsome : [00:49:58] So we we've got some good things in quality coming back. I'd like to see that. I would like to see the growth in social enterprise as well because I really like wherever I can see the growth in the minority groups and the support of those minority groups in a very healthy, wholesome and supportive way. So it gives back to those communities. I'd like to see more of that, but once again, that won't be throngs of people. That'll be a group of six, that'll be a maximum of 12, that kind of thing. We won't I don't think there's going to be the big bus loads. And you know, a lot of those busloads were coming from China. So I'm kind of on a watch wait and see whether or not we will get the Chinese back in as they were the number one tourist group to Vietnam. So yeah, I mean, I can sit in that roundtable Conor, with those working party groups in tourism any day of the week with all my wish list. But I think there's a lot of players in the field, there's a lot of money that's that's being kind of discussed as far as development is concerned. So it's a little bit wait and see. Conor Kelly : [00:51:15] Right. I see. And a new tradition I have on this podcast, Kerry is asking the guest a question which is, has that been a question that I've not asked you that you would have liked me to. Um. Kerry Newsome : [00:51:35] Well, I thought we were going to talk a little bit more about podcasting. And I thought we were going to kind of share some of the aspects of, you know, what do you what do you know about Vietnam travel from a podcast? Conor Kelly : [00:51:51] Right. I see. And we did allude to that briefly where we spoke about people from different avenues doing different topics based on their experiences. But what have you found out specifically about Vietnam from your podcast then? Kerry what about Vietnam? What have you discovered? Kerry Newsome : [00:52:08] Well, obviously I've discovered a lot of new places and new experiences, but what I've also discovered is more about how people are consuming information. You know, like, is everybody totally dependent on the one source? Does everybody just Google the place? Or would you think to go to a podcast that was about travel, specifically about Vietnam? Because there's not many travel podcasts and there's not many just about Vietnam. In fact, I think I'm one of the rare few. There is Southeast Asian travel podcasts and there's very mixed, mixed travel podcast across lots of destinations, but there's not many just about Vietnam. Did you notice that? Conor Kelly : [00:52:59] Yeah, I only saw -7 million bikes of Vietnam podcast, because that's what it's called. There's your own, there's Vietcetra, Yeah, I can't think of any more. Kerry Newsome : [00:53:10] But they're not travel specific. Conor Kelly : [00:53:12] No, that's true. That is true. Yeah. Kerry Newsome : [00:53:14] They are broad. Yeah. Broad based and they are certainly talking about stories about people related, but they are not about travel experiences. And that I found kind of amazing. I mean, I'm glad I've got that niche, but you know, is that because people, you know, don't relate to a podcast to be informative about travel or they want to see things or I don't know. What are your thoughts about that? I'd be keen to know. Conor Kelly : [00:53:44] Yeah, I would think it's because people would probably rather Google or rather look at Instagram. This is just what's coming to me on the top of my head rather than listening to a podcast about it. Unless I would say friends or I knew the podcast host, for example, or I was aware of guests who'd been on. So, you know, I would probably say that's the reason why people aren't quite going to podcast for this information or they probably look for YouTube. I mean, you can type in visiting Vietnam on YouTube and there'll be thousands of videos with lots and lots of hits compared to podcasts. That's my current opinion. Kerry Newsome : [00:54:21] Yeah. And I think it's an interesting one because, you know, you're right, if you type in Google to visiting Vietnam or travel from Vietnam, there's blogs, there's Vlogs, there's, you know, You Tubes, but they're all kind of, you know, just someone either selling a tour or there is somebody just done a holiday video of their trip to Hanoi or Ho Chi Minh or the Mekong Delta or something like that. So it's 2 minutes and back, so there's not much in this space. So I wondered whether it was good to kind of inform your listeners that that's why I've kind of expanded the podcast situation so that I also included a transcript. So if you'd prefer to read about a place, there's a full transcript which is in a PDF format so that you can print it off, so you can read about the place or the experience, you can highlight it, you can do whatever. And also I do small like teaser elements, so audio grams so the person I'll grab something and I got card that was really interesting and I'll just grab a two minute snippet. I do a full episode on YouTube and I'm also moving to curate special kind of experiences, etc., which will have visual aspects on the site. So hopefully I'm going to fill the visual gap because I think the visual gaps about the only gap I can see in this channel, for want of a better word. Conor Kelly : [00:56:01] What do you think? And, and where can we find out more about what you do Kerry? How can we access your work? Kerry Newsome : [00:56:08] Well, obviously, you can go to the website. www.whataboutvietnam.com You can certainly find me on LinkedIn under my name, Kerry Newsome . And also the what about Vietnam podcast page on the LinkedIn site? You can also check me out on Instagram and Facebook and You Tube. Conor Kelly : [00:56:29] Excellent. Kerry Newsome : [00:56:30] So I would love feedback from people because, you know, my audience is growing dramatically. I've got nearly 20,000 listeners already just in two years. I do publish fortnightly, but I'm really keen to get people to give me their feedback. What do they want to know? What do they want me to to get someone to talk about because they're interested in going to Vietnam and they want to have a particular experience? Conor Kelly : [00:56:58] Absolutely. Have you any final thoughts, Kerry, before we wrap up? Kerry Newsome : [00:57:03] No, I just want to say fantastic what you're doing. Conor, really love your episodes. I really wish you well. And maybe we can catch up when I'm there in September. Conor Kelly : [00:57:14] Absolutely. I'd love nothing more. Definitely explore some of Ho Chi Minh. See what has to offer and see how you find coming back after a long break. Kerry, I've really enjoyed. Keep up the good work and thank you very much for your time. Kerry Newsome : [00:57:26] Thanks, Conor. ORIGINAL PODCAST – Comeback podcast show with Conor Kelly. Link here - https://anchor.fm/conor-kelly02/episodes/ComebaCK-INTERVIEW-371---Kerry-Newsome---What-About-Vietnam-Tourism-In-Vietnam-e1i1isr

S4-21 Beyond the Phong Nha caves What About Vietnam – S4- E21 Exploring Phong Nha beyond the caves Kerry Newsome: [00:00:01] Xin Chau And welcome to What about Vietnam? I'm happy to report Vietnam is really hitting its straps again as far as being a vibrant, healthy country to visit. I've just got back. I had a fabulous time. I could have stayed a lot longer, but there's just so much to do and trying to cram it in is always a challenge. I know I may sound a bit like a broken record, but there's just such a variety of things to do and discovery is endless. So today I wanted to focus on Phong Nha. Now, you know, Vietnam is kind of managed to get through the really hard years of COVID with a lot of hard work like most places, but also diversification in many cities and localities. And the Phong Nha locality is one such region that really pulled all their straps together to try and build on what was available with the caving to lots of other activities. And a great advocate for that is Ben Mitchell. Now I've had Ben Mitchell on the show before, along with Howard Limbert, but we really concentrated on the caves and I wanted today's story to be about some of the other cool things there are to do in addition to the caves in Phong Nha, because for you and your planning a couple of days might not cover a visit in Phong Nha you may want to extend it to a week and you'll hear from Ben as he actually says he wishes he had a dollar for every person that says, you know, we should have added in more time as there's just so much to do. Kerry Newsome: [00:01:56] Ben is really well known in the region. He's a strong advocate for tourism and really goes out of his way to. Educate to inform people about the region. And he's got some some great links and I'll certainly include those in the notes that you'll be able to get access to. His knowledge. You know it extends to the region's history and that includes its war history. He knows a lot about bike riding and getting around through the jungles, the Phong Nha Loop. He'll talk about all of these kind of activities in the show. And you know what's great it. It's the kind of region that I think a family could really enjoy a long stay there, lots of activities for kids to do, you know, healthy stuff out in nature and exploring farms and farm life and great tasty food from farm to table and just a very nice community spirit with really good, fun, cool things for kids to do that they'll be talking about for years to come. And I think, you know, if you can build into your trip some part that does offer a long stay, it means you kind of get to unpack your bags, leave them there for a week, and then do some really cool day trips. And Fong Na, I think gives you those options and that variety. I'm really grateful for Ben coming on the show, and I just know you're going to love all his stories and and some of the stuff that he's got to share with with us today. Ben, welcome to What about Vietnam once again? Ben Mitchell: [00:03:53] Hey, good morning, Kerry. Thank you. Kerry Newsome: [00:03:55] I thought what we'd get into now, Ben, was some of the things we talked about before we got on here, and that was just some of the things that you can do in Phong Nha that are kind of not for your cave lovers, not for people who are coming to Vietnam to do caves. We know that there's those people. But for those that have gone, gosh, you know, I really didn't have any real knowledge of Phong Nha, So maybe speak to Phong, Nha and a little bit of history. I'm going to make sure that I put in the notes, some of your links etcetera, to some of your historical aspects that we talked about, but maybe share with my listeners. Now just a little bit of the history of Phong Nha so that they can get a feel for it. Ben Mitchell: [00:04:42] Well, Phong Nha has…. Really got a lot to offer to people that want to experience the beauty of rural Vietnam. Um, the mountains here are karst mountains. They're covered in jungle. There is an incredible road which goes from the village of Phong Nha into the mountains up to a place called Tra ang Intersection, where it where it runs into the Ho Chi Minh Trail West. That road is called Highway 20 or Victory Road. And that was the road that essentially led North Vietnam out of the North Vietnamese army, out of Phong Nha to go to fight in the South. It's part of the Ho Chi Minh Trail network. But those roads were built and trails were built during the American war. And today they provide us with access into some really beautiful jungle mountain area national park. And that has become the loop, um, over the years with the backpacker tourism and the loop can be. Can be. Uh, utilized as a day trip by tour companies use it to go to the Dark Cave, the NUOC Moc Eco trail, and the Paradise Cave. You can rent a motorbike and go there for the very fit. You can do it by mountain bike and I mean very fit. We do have a lot of people do that but and I've done it but it's it's quite a quite a big ride. It's about about 60 to 70km of a couple of mountain passes in that. Um and what I highly recommend people do is go on the back of a local experienced motorbike rider. They've got their, their own scooters. They're very easy to book through your homestay. They generally charge about $20, a little bit more than $20 for the day trip. Ben Mitchell: [00:06:57] Basically, you've got a couple of things going on there. One is, is that those guys are. Are getting a day's salary. So, you know, for each person that goes out as a as a as a as a bit of money for the local riders. The other thing is the scenery. The scenery is just amazing off the back of a motorbike. It's an incredible way to see it. If you're on the back of a licensed rider, you can have a beer at lunchtime, one of the places around the park, you can relax and it's it's just an incredible day out that I've never met anyone who didn't rave about after they've done it. Um, what we've made ourselves. I actually made it with a gentleman from Da Nang. And he came up and helped me and I got with Hung from Karst Villas. Hung owns a little resort called Karst Villas. Huong and I used to run tours around the national park. We were we were actually the first people to run tours around the national park. And we had a lot of information that we've now put onto a bit of a podcast that people can listen to in chapters. That's the first chapters about Phong Nha Cave. To give people some background information about that. And then there's some other chapters about different things around the loop and about what you're actually looking at and experiencing as you go around. And that ties in really well with people who either rent a motorbike and go around or they sit on the back of a licensed rider and go around the park to give them a bit of background and give them a bit extra value for their for their trip. Kerry Newsome: [00:08:34] Okay. And I think that's good to mention because I'd like to put some links to that. Ben, if you'll allow me in the transcript and on the website so that people can get that. Because the other thing we kind of touched on at the beginning was this aspect that Phong Nha now offers the opportunity for a bit of a DIY trip, doesn't it? So you can kind of make it up as you go. Obviously there's access to people like yourselves in Phong Nha that can give some advice. I mean, you've only got to contact Ben at Phong Nha, Farmstay his links will be in the show notes. But maybe speak, Ben, if you would, talk about the kind of stuff that people can do as a family, stuff that, you know, can amuse kids. I know you know, you've got a young family as well, and I see them paddle boarding and I see them surfing and I see, you know, like I know the surf is not like Australia surf, but, you know, there are some different aspects which people wouldn't automatically think would be available from Phong Nha as a kind of a base. Ben Mitchell: [00:09:42] Yeah, well. Dong Hoi City itself is located on the East Sea and it has some beautiful big beaches. Um, there's Bo Ninh Beach and Nhat le beach and you can experience those beaches, can experience the seafood restaurants along the beaches. Um. Dong Hoi could be explained as being not. It's a place where you can really get Vietnamese modern culture. It's not, uh, not, not set up for Western tourism. It's set up for Vietnamese tourism. And in summer it's quite busy with Vietnamese tourists and quite a lot of fun for people that are looking for something very unique. You know, as opposed to going to, you know, beaches that are set up for Western tourism. Um, staying in Dong Hoi still gives easy access to the national park. There's tours you can do. You can rent scooters, You can get riders. You can stay in Dong Hoi for one night, two nights, and then still come out to Phong Nha. The whole province has got a lot of different things, a lot of diversity because of. It's a diverse place. You've got the mountains, the jungle, you've got the rural farmland, you've got the beaches, you've got these incredible sand dunes just north of Dong Hoi that have now got four wheel motorbikes that you can rent and ride around on the sand dunes. Um, so yeah, there's a lot of diversity there with the beach. I personally like to go over to a beach called Danha Beach, which is only about a 25 minute drive from Phong Nha farm stay where I live, and I like to go over there at dawn often and go surfing. Ben Mitchell: [00:11:35] The best surfing time is. The autumn and the winter when we get the storms. But we've been going over actually a couple of times recently for some little waves with the kids early in the morning. Um, as far as out here, things to do with families go. I really rate the Bungalow Valley as a great day trip. Most of the homestays around here have got bicycles included in your stay. Or you can rent better, better mountain bikes. And you can also do bicycle tours with she's another guy called. Shi has bicycle tours and he runs some incredible bicycle tours, including going up around the Bong lai Valley and other areas out in the countryside and along different parts of the Ho Chi Minh Trail and. He actually has a company here that does the bicycle tours. Mr. Shi JANG With Bong lai Valley. You can also go up there with the riders on the back of a scooter, or you can rent a scooter and go up there. It's a loop that you do in a rural valley with different stops around the loop that have just naturally evolved around backpackers and. You've got a few farm to table restaurants along the way, like Moi MOI which is one of my favorites, where they do barbecue chickens. When you order the chicken, you actually see people go off and start chasing chickens. Um, they do a really amazing dish where. Kerry Newsome: [00:13:15] They're frightened when they see people come in. Oh no, they are going to have me for lunch. Oh, they. Ben Mitchell: [00:13:21] Look pretty calm just cruising around doing their thing. These are really, really true free range chickens. You cannot get more free range than that. Ben Mitchell: [00:13:34] They're called Ga doi, which means garden chicken. And they're, you know, they're pretty happy chickens. Um, God knows. Ben Mitchell: [00:13:43] I've met. Some people who are vegans, you know, are not vegans, vegetarians for because of food industry reasons. And they will eat the chicken up there because they see it as being, um. A garden variety. Ben Mitchell: [00:13:58] Yeah. And, and, and happy chickens. Yeah. So, so, yeah, I was sort of surprised when I've seen that a couple of times. Kerry Newsome: [00:14:08] I'm kind of conscious that people want to plan and plan their time. So with all of the things that you're bringing in this episode to us, how should people plan their stay? Like how long, where should they do it from? How do they manipulate it? Because we also kind of agree that there's a lot of kind of mish mash of information out there. So a lot of people come to me and say, look, it's just overwhelming. I don't know what's good, what's not good, Like, so can we give a bit of a steer for people or, you know, how they kind of put this together? Do they come to Vietnam first and then do it from Vietnam? Do they do it all their research from home? Where can we where can we send everyone? Ben Mitchell: [00:14:55] Well, I think people can. If people say listen to your podcast, well, then by listening to different episodes, they will get different information about different areas from people who have a lot of experience in those areas. Um, and I think other, other sources of information at the moment, I think that tourism numbers are still very down and I think that if someone landed in Vietnam and started moving through the country, they would and they had already chosen all of their hotels and what they're going to do each day and that before they got here, 100% booked in, they would probably find that by talking to other travelers heading in the other direction at the moment, that they might have done things differently had they had they had more modern information, say, from up to date. Ben Mitchell: [00:15:55] Date. So yeah, up to date information. I'm hearing from a lot of people that they're wishing that they had booked maybe less time in some of the more developed areas and more time in some of the less travelled to areas. I'm also hearing that people are noticing big changes in what they're finding when they get to destinations they've been to before. Um, a lot of businesses have shut down, a lot of businesses have been knocked about in their management systems during COVID. Um, and a lot of businesses have done a full or partial changeover to domestic tourism and the domestic tourism has much different expectations. To what Western tourism has. You might find that when you get to that resort that you've stayed at before, that it's operating very differently with a much different atmosphere. So you've got to be a little bit adaptable and you've got to be prepared to maybe change your plans or not have such set plans if you're traveling through the country. I mean, it's probably different if you're going to come out to Holland again and stay there for two weeks and just chill and hang out and soak up what that town's got to offer, That would be yeah, you know, you're going to do that. But if you're if you're actually going to travel through Vietnam at the moment, you would probably have to make some of the decisions about what you're doing along the way by talking to people heading in the other direction that you're bumping into, because they're going to give you information that might conflict with what your expectations were. Kerry Newsome: [00:17:44] And I think for my listeners, if you if you kind of consider the fact that the industry was just so hit so hard that a lot of the Vietnamese workers that worked in the travel industry have since left that industry and that has. Ben Mitchell: [00:18:05] Big player. Kerry Newsome: [00:18:06] A very big player and I think best to just manage people's expectations at this point and to realize that has meant that a lot of the hotels that Ben's talking about also cannot actually take 100% occupancy because they don't have the staff to man the hotels that were originally operating at that at those levels. So they have small occupancies that they can manage with people. And as Ben also alluded, there's also some takeovers that have happened. So the hotel might, you know, that you went to before or that you looked once before on the website. Actually, it's kind of changed its name. It's having some, you know, renovations done. It's got a new manager, it's got a new style. And, you know, Ben's quite right. It is targeting more the, you know, nearly 100 million local residents of Vietnam rather than us Westerners and foreigners to the country. And likewise, I think we need to appreciate that there's a kind of a what I'm hearing from my chats with people is that there's a re- training going on. So the people that have left the industry and they're hiring back new people, they've got to start from scratch. So, you know, it's kind of evolving, but it's not evolving. It's not a flick of a switch. It's not that, Oh, okay. The gates are open. We're all, you know, Jack ready to go. That's just actually not happening. What is comforting to hear is that there's enthusiasm out there and there's hope out there and there's people aspiring back to, you know, to welcome international tourism back because, you know, I think the country does have so much to offer. Kerry Newsome: [00:20:02] And what I love about talking to you, Ben, is that you do get very much involved with the tourists as they come through. And I love how you can kind of share also that community spirit of Phong Nha . Because when I see anything about Foreigner with your name attached to it, you know, you're meeting and greeting people, you're sharing them, you know, with them what you know and experienced. Now you've been there, you know, a long time. So getting back to that question about people planning, I agree. I think being able to be adaptable and flexible with their bookings because if you're locked in, you're locked in. So people just be careful with your cancellation policies and things like that. I think you'll find there's some manoeuvrability. There is a lot of accommodation there. And one of the things I want to emphasize with Phong Nha is there is the beautiful homestays. But if you know you want luxury in that, you can go up, you know, to your four and five star villas and things like that as well. So there's that really broad scope of, you know, the adventure traveler or, you know, maybe the chill and luxury and, and have a gin and tonic kind of traveler as well. There's that really lovely mix. So just getting back, Ben, to people planning their time. You and I have talked about this before, that you actually get some visitors that come for a couple of days but wish they'd stay for longer, maybe Talk to us a little bit about that. Ben Mitchell: [00:21:33] Well, I wish I had a dollar for every one I heard say that. But I'm glad I have a dollar for every. Kerry Newsome: [00:21:38] You mean Dong, don't you? Ben Mitchell: [00:21:41] But I'm glad I've had. I have a dollar for every one who has stayed an extra day. But I think that the. Yeah, I mean, I'm hearing that daily as people leave that people wish they had longer in this area. They underestimated what the area had to offer. Um, and I do always look forward to them going away and telling people about the area because they enjoyed it so much. As far as things to do, I mean, the Bong lai Valley with those restaurants like Moi Moi and the pub with cold beer, with Kong's jungle experience, where he teaches people about rubber tapping and he's got a big swing up there and a full operating farm that he shows people around. Um, then there's Mr. Quyen at the duck stop, which is a somehow it's become like this world famous thing for people to go there and. Um, see be entertained by his ducks. He's performing ducks. Um, that's really popular with families. Really popular with, you know, travellers. And the food up there is quite a foodie experience for the farm to table dishes. Like they've got bamboo stuff with pork, they've got the Bun Loc cakes, which are a peanut and mushroom, little sort of pasty pie made from cassava. Um, all these delicious delicacies and different foods that if you go up there as a group, even like you often see families and groups of backpackers together sit down and all have a big sort of order different foods and sit around, eat together in a hut up there in the in one of the farm to table restaurants. Ben Mitchell: [00:23:29] That's a good day trip. And it's cheap. I mean, you do it yourself. It's simple as that. You've got to map. The maps are online. It's all available. Um, then as I mentioned before, the national Park loop is a good thing to do. There's many things to do along that, so you can sort of choose what you want to do before you go. Um, with a little bit of research and maybe talking to, talking to your homestay or talking to, to the locals, the, the Phong Nha Cave in itself is really still it's the original tourism thing to do here in Phong Nha. When I first came here back in 2000, early 2007, it was a tourism thing that you could do here you hop on a boat. At the at the father son ferry crossing and which is basically why the village was there. It was a village around a ferry crossing. Um, and you, you go up the river seven kilometers and then they turn the engine off on the boat. And then you go one kilometer into the cave. Now it's a great cave to visit. It's a great cave trip. Sadly, at the moment, there's still no information about what you're looking at and where you are. And there's a lot of really interesting information about that. So we're Hung and I have added that to the podcast that we made in order to try and share that information. I know at Easy Tiger Hostel, pre COVID at 9:00 in the morning every morning, people came from all the different hotels down to Easy Tiger for the 9 a.m. Ben Mitchell: [00:25:09] Talk where we would tell people about that then send them off to the cave in big groups so they could all share the boat. That is currently not happening at the moment because Easy Tiger did not survive COVID. Um, at the farm stay, we try and tell our customers, but what I'm finding is much easier for our staff and for us as a whole as we rebuild, um, at both our businesses that are still open is we refer people to the podcast just to get that historical information. And I'd like to start sharing that more with all the other homestays too, so they can their customers can benefit from that as well. As far as exploring the local area goes. A bicycle ride around in the countryside on either side of the river, heading away from town, either upriver or downriver is a great experience to get out into the countryside because I really fell in love with riding around all the islands in the delta behind Hoi ani 2007 through to about 2010. I found it to be like just Vietnam with no development and no nothing, nothing out there for foreign tourists. And then you could still be back at your hotel in the evening and like nice and comfortable and out for a beer or whatever you want to do. And Phong Nha was very much at that stage. At the moment, if you leave the village of Phong Nha, you sort of go out into the countryside. You can you can aim for some different things, like a ride out to the dark Cave for a day trip on a bicycles really good. Ben Mitchell: [00:26:48] You can ride bicycle out to the BONG LAI Valley and then come around past where I live. In the afternoon through CU NAM village. CU NAM Village has just been designated by the government as a tourism village for they want to try and get into the tourism market. But it's it'll be very different because it's much more low key sort of tourism in a rural environment. And that's where the Farmstay has always been. A book was recently written by an author called Sue Fleming. She was here on holiday during COVID, and she from, was from Hanoi. Um, and Sue was talking to my mother who was stuck here throughout COVID for two years. And my mother had done about eight years worth of research talking to old people in the village, using local interpreters. And Sue got hold of all Mum's research and and wove a novel around her. Her research, which we are now selling at the Farmstay with proceeds going to rebuilding the museum which was destroyed in the big floods that we have here every few years. That book's called ‘Two Pillars Remain’ and we're selling that here Now. There's also some great. Like there's a good documentary that's been made by Utah University and that is about, um. The war. My mother in law features in that documentary, along with a lot of us Marines that served on the DMZ and other Vietnamese combatants. And that that documentary is really good for people who want to just sort of hear about the human side of the war. Kerry Newsome: [00:28:46] And funny you mentioned about Utah. I want to say hello to many of my Utah listeners and I'll tell you why. Ben, Fascinating as it may be. Um, there are a lot of people who left Vietnam as war veterans, etcetera, and took their families and resettled in Utah in the US 1975, you know, onwards. Et cetera. So yeah, it's really interesting that that documentary is coming out of Utah. I can totally understand why and really good to know. Ben Mitchell: [00:29:22] Huge amount of young people coming into the tourism industry over here. A lot of them were actually studying tourism. During COVID. And they were they were frightened because they decided to go into a field that was that was. Not. Kerry Newsome: [00:29:39] Looking sustainable. Ben Mitchell: [00:29:41] Not looking sustainable. And so they're all quite enthusiastic and they're coming out now and looking for jobs. A lot of the best people from pre-COVID, they were the sort of people who had a lot of get up and go in them and they got up and went. When COVID hit. And I'm finding that a lot of the guys that I used to work with and and around there in places like Taiwan and Penang and different parts of the world now. Yeah. Doing, doing some doing the same job and a lot doing different jobs and they won't come back now I don't think I think that they've left the industry and that's making it very difficult for some of the tour companies. Yes, some of the tour companies are struggling to find those experienced guys that used to do that, used to carry their workload for them, and now they've got young, inexperienced people coming in. And that's adding to the stress of starting up trying to do the training that some companies really tried to do some unique measures to stay alive during the COVID. Um, that's really paying off for them now. Companies like Oxalis who kept all their tour guides busy and working and all their porters busy and working by diversifying. I hear different stories from up and down the coast of other companies that did the same. Um, that'll pay off for them. Now I know that, that I'm very grateful for a couple of the key people who run our businesses who have still got with us and, and I can see that I'm very lucky to have them still. Kerry Newsome: [00:31:20] Ben, thank you for being on the show. I'd like to share with everyone the links that you mentioned. I'll make sure that they're in the notes for people to access and yeah, just great to catch up and talk everything. Ben Mitchell: [00:31:32] Fun yeah. Really appreciate the opportunity. Thanks Kerry.

S5-E7-- The Rise of Unique Dining Experiences in Vietnam S5-E7-- The Rise of Unique Dining Experiences in Vietnam Episode 07 S5-E7-- The Rise of Unique Dining Experiences in Vietnam 00:00 / 54:10 In our show today we get to explore the evolving food culture in Vietnam, with a focus on the growth of new culinary experiences and the expansion of dining options beyond just street food. Don’t get me wrong, Street Food is still something you must try, but don’t stop there! Our wonderful guest, Jovel Chan a food writer and consultant, shares her insights on the influx of chefs from Vietnam and abroad, the rise of upscale establishments, and the overall refinement and enhancement of the dining scene in cities like Saigon and Hanoi. Many talented chefs have come to Vietnam, particularly in cities like Saigon and Hanoi, to set up their own restaurants and cater to both tourists and locals looking for something different. These chefs bring with them their expertise and creativity, introducing new flavors, techniques, and cuisines to the Vietnamese food scene. Additionally, the rise of five-star hotels and the opening of more malls in Vietnam have further diversified the dining scene. This has led to a wider variety of cuisines being available, catering to different tastes and preferences. It was pure joy to have this time with Jovel as we laughed and agreed on so many topics and shared experiences. I hope you can forgive the slight ‘cross talk’ in places, but I think if I didn’t leave that in, you would miss out on the connection we had, and wanted to share with you. If you are looking for new tables to eat at and experience Vietnamese food variations then listen to the end as Jovel shares her favourites in Hanoi and Saigon. You can find all about Jovel’s Saigon Social, dining guides and so much more on her website here, so make sure you check out her dates and plan your trip accordingly. I know I am going to! Follow Jovel here: Website: https://jovelchan.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jovel.chan/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jovel.chan.7/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joveleugeniachan/ Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-13 - Out and About in Nha Trang - The city of 300 days of sunshine S5-13 - Out and About in Nha Trang - The city of 300 days of sunshine Episode 13 S5-13 - Out and About in Nha Trang - The city of 300 days of sunshine 00:00 / 18:55 Welcome back to What About Vietnam! Get your ears ready for another insightful episode in our mini-series, Out & About in Vietnam where I check out what Nha Trang has to offer, in a 3 day stay. Nha Trang is not just another beautiful beach destination; it's a cultural melting pot. From the moment you step foot in Nha Trang, you're greeted by its buzzy, somewhat noisy atmosphere along the promenade. For the best stunning beach shoreline view, in the evening, I suggest heading to the Skylight roof top bar. https://skylightnhatrang.com/ An even better idea is to get up early and enjoy a mesmerising sunrise in the quietness of the day. A quick mention about the lovely Potique Hotel https://potiquehotel.com/ who sponsored this episode. A relatively new elegant city hotel, offering spacious well-designed rooms in that rich Indochine style with amazing beach views. Private access arranged at the beach and cafés, and restaurants right at your front door. We loved our stay. Go direct to the hotel LINK HERE https://potiquehotel.com/ for the best offers and mention this podcast. But there's more to Nha Trang than meets the eye. Beyond the beaches, I briefly touch on the variety of cuisines available to tantalise your taste buds. I forget to mention the amazing feast I had of lobster. So cheap and so delicious, you can find the restaurant on Google maps under Luong Son Cang Restaurant. For those adventure seekers, Nha Trang is a treasure trove of adrenaline-pumping activities. From exhilarating water sports, including top-notch diving, to the excitement of island hopping, which we tried as it included the mud baths experience!!! Let’s just say, – it's an experience unlike any other! Journey beyond the city centre to uncover it’s real gems; like the Po Nagar temple, offering insights into Vietnam's fascinating Cham history and Salt mining in the salt fields about an hour out of town.

Please refer back to previous episodes:- S4-E5 – With Colm Hutchinson as he shares 10 of the best things to do in Nha Trang S3-E06 – With Jeremy Stein as he talks about the birth of Padi diving in Nha Trang Until next time, happy travels from What About Vietnam! Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-E3- Heritage and discovery in Saigon, The Mekong Delta and Dalat S5-E3- Heritage and discovery in Saigon, The Mekong Delta and Dalat Episode 03 S5-E3- Heritage and discovery in Saigon, The Mekong Delta and Dalat 00:00 / 1:14:40 In this podcast episode, I have the opportunity to introduce you to Vicki Thai, a Health Care Sales professional living in Utah, USA, with Vietnamese heritage. Vicki's family immigrated to the United States from Vietnam when she was four years old, and during her growing up, she had never given much thought to her Vietnamese background. However, a moment of vulnerability in her mother's health led her to realize the importance of experiencing her heritage. She decided to plan a trip to Vietnam with her mother and reached out to the "What About Vietnam" podcast for assistance. As I knew the background to the tour, I took great pleasure in planning this trip for Vicki and her mum, which included visits to Saigon, the Mekong Delta, and Dalat. These locations held special significance for Vicki and her mother, allowing them to explore their roots and connect with their heritage. Unexpectedly, the trip evoked strong emotions and a newfound appreciation for their Vietnamese identity. During their stay in Vietnam, Vicki and her mother engaged with the local people, immersed themselves in the country's culture, and marveled at the landscapes. This experience transformed Vicki's perception of her birthplace, instilling a deep sense of pride in her heritage. She also praises the warmth and thoughtfulness of the Vietnamese people, particularly their tour guides, and one in particular in Saigon, Ms Thuy. The episode highlights Vicki's journey through Saigon, the Mekong Delta, and Dalat, showcasing her awe and discovery of these places. I think for those who don’t live in their country of birth, you will relate to Vicki's story. Despite the trip going mostly smoothly, there was a minor glitch, illustrating that while many aspects can be controlled, some factors remain unpredictable. I believe Vicki’s account of her experiences with the locals reflects the country itself, and Vietnam's warm and welcoming nature speaks volumes about the nation's character. From the bustling vibrant city of Saigon, Vicki takes us by the hand as she describes her love of the bustling city of Saigon, to her awe and disbelief cruising through the Mekong Delta and then to discovering through the forests, the city of Dalat. A city she totally didn’t expect, while being her mothers’ birth city. At a deeper level this episode offers insight into the transformative power of heritage exploration and the deep connections it can foster. Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

ba8c349b-ceb1-4781-b785-c42cb80e29d5These episodes remind me why I started this journey The Top 5 Vietnam Travel Podcasts for 2021 Episode 10 S3-10 Top 5 Travel Podcasts 00:00 / 37:56 In todays' world of media there are so many news broadcasters competing for your attention, it’s hard to know which one to trust. 
With the advent of Covid’s most devastating outbreak in Vietnam and Saigon happening in 2021, getting local insights in English has been challenging. Albeit, when many other countries around the world are opening up, it's been hard to comprehend, let alone fully appreciate the ferocity of the Delta variant as it forced Saigon into one of the strongest city lockdowns of the last 20 years.
Michael Tatarski is my guest and in his role as Editor-in-Chief of Saigoneer, the Vietnamese culture and history website, and author of the Vietnam Weekly newsletter is well respected for his local knowledge and reporting in Vietnam and most particularly Saigon.

I catch up with Michael just as the October 2021 ease in lockdowns is about to happen. In this episode he talks about what it’s been like during the lockdown from July to October 1st, 2021 and what aspirations and advice he has on travel coming out of the lockdown, both domestically and internationally. It's great having Michael come on the show to give everyone the insights into the behind the news stories of Saigon during this devastating time of hardship. 
Read his latest report of the week commencing 1/10/21 - "The Lockdown is lifted".

I see this as a historic recording. You may wish to listen to this again before you visit, so you can marvel at the city's resilience and determination. I expect a lot of changes and hopefully most for the good.

Saigon is a truly vibrant and energetic city bursting with heritage that sits alongside creative eateries, secret alleys, coffee houses, river cruising, artisan shopping and roof top bars, that many a news crew were known to drink at in years gone by. 
When you go to visit Saigon, you may wish to listen to previous episodes talking about the Saigon Nightlife, and Best Districts to visit as great guides to maximise your time there. Download Transcript PDF Read transcript

S4-16 Mystical Ninh Binh What About Vietnam - S4 - E16 Ninh Binh The mystical rival to Halong Bay Kerry Newsome: [00:00:36] Xin Chau and welcome to What about Vietnam? Well, believe it or not, this is going to be the last episode for 2022, as I'm going to take a short break. As to be really honest, I really need a short break as we've got a big year planned for 23. So, you can expect to see us back early in the new year. I wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for your support. You've been absolutely fantastic. I hope you're getting a lot from the program. We've, been going now two and a half years. We've got over 70 episodes. So to my guests, to you, my listeners, just my deep gratitude and thanks for your support. [00:01:28] Just a couple of other things that I thought I'd mention before we start this show. Firstly, is just wanted to say that you can reach out to me directly through the website. What about Vietnam .com I'd love to get your reviews, get your feedback. I absolutely love getting mail from you, so please do that. And you can also follow the program on social pages. So your Instagrams, your Facebook, etc., we're there. I also have a YouTube channel. So if you're not sure which show that you might want to watch, if you go to the what about Vietnam YouTube channel, you'll be able to look at some trailers there and just get a feel for an episode before jumping in if you wish to. So that's just something I thought I'd add, that you might not know about. The last thing I wanted to mention was my book. I finally got to complete my book called Book Pack and Stay - a Travel Guide to Vietnam. Kerry Newsome: [00:02:40] To give you some context to the book, It's actually been inspired by my little book of notes that I've carried with me over the years back and forth to Vietnam, where I write little bits and pieces down from experiences. And these are not only my experiences but experiences from travellers. Some of the things that they've said that I've taken note of that, you know, had they known or had they had got that information, then they may not have found issue with that. So it's quite an interactive book in the sense that there's lots of links to podcasts, to YouTube channels, to apps, to how to get a visa to all sorts of things. So I'm hoping you're going to be able to read it fairly quickly, but keep it as a bit of a go to when you want to start your planning. And while it may sound on the surface like a total do it yourself guide, it is in a sense. But it I'm hoping also it's going to give you the the questions to ask a travel agent so or to mention that you know these aspects are important to you so you want them included in your trip. So it's kind of like your soft skills guide to to getting it right. I mean, holidays are special. We don't always have that much time on our hand, so I'm hoping it's going to be your companion guide to your research. When you look at planning a trip to Vietnam. And just before we jump in the show, I want to wish everyone a merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Please make it as special as possible. Kerry Newsome: [00:04:32] I think one of the things that we've all learnt from the pandemic is about time and about time with those we love. So, it's up to us to make it as sweet as possible. And I just want everyone to know I'm sending you my best wishes for this time of year. [00:04:51] Now, I wanted to make the last show a bit special in the sense of featuring a special location that I certainly have an affinity with, and that's Ninh Binh. Now, Nin Binh doesn't come up that much in dispatches I guess, or social media, but it definitely should, as its probably biggest rival would be Halong Bay. [00:05:19] But as my guest and I agree, Ninh Binh is probably even more special. That's a big statement. I know, I know, but I'd like you to meet Jack Taylor. Jack Taylor produces some. Absolutely outstanding cinematography through a YouTube channel he started a few years ago called 'I Go Cool Places'. [00:05:45] The link will be in the notes. Of course. Jack is actually an English teacher by trade. He's travelled quite extensively, lived overseas most of his adult life. So, you know, four years in China and three years in Spain. And so he's really got some good life experience to use as a comparison when he's traveled in Vietnam. And I'm happy to say that he's fallen in love with Vietnam as a country to visit in Southeast Asia. I hope you'll enjoy the episode, please. As I said, stay tuned for what about Vietnam as it comes back on in 23, thanking you again. And please welcome Jack Taylor to the program. Jack, welcome to What about Vietnam? Jack Taylor: [00:06:47] Thank you. Thank you again for having me. Kerry Newsome: [00:06:49] It's great to have you back on. I really I couldn't let you go without talking about Ninh Binh because you've done this fab YouTube video. And I just yeah, I fell in love with Ninh Binh all over again due to your fabulous filming. So congrats on that. , let's talk. Let's talk Ninh Binh Jack Taylor: [00:07:12] Yeah. Ninh Binh was towards the end of my northern Vietnam trip after visiting Hanoi and Sapa and I mean it's really hard to choose a favourite place that I've been in Vietnam, but Ninh Binh is definitely up there. I think it's got some of the most beautiful scenery in all of Vietnam. They call it the Halong Bay on land and you can see why these tall, pointy karst mountains that are unlike most places I've ever been before. Kerry Newsome: [00:07:42] And that's my problem with it. I find it really hard to describe to people, you know, and they say, like, what's so fantastic about it?I don't know. It's the limestone peaks, you know, the the caves that you go on, the boats are managed by those rowers that row with their feet. You know, I don't know if somebody said to you tomorrow, okay Jack, describe Ninh Binh for me, What would you say? Jack Taylor: [00:08:14] Yeah, I would say it's almost like it's a semi mystical place to me as to how I described it in my video, because you've got these mountains that don't really look like mountains that you've ever seen before. Also nestled in amongst them are temples, and then you've got this, this kind of river system. And I think I found that out most when I took my drone there to make the video. And you've obviously seen my video. It's got these structures that you've never seen anywhere else before. So if you're a drone enthusiast, this is probably the best place I've ever been to fly my drone because you've got some of the best shots, some of the most interesting things you could see. Kerry Newsome: [00:08:51] And you know why I love the drone photography a lot is because in some ways you get to see things that your own eyes at street level can't see. So you're not always going to be able to get to vantage points to get high enough to be able to look down and so the drone gives you that that absolute 360 degrees view, which is just spectacular. Absolutely spectacular. So talk about your stay there, Jack. Like, how long did you decide to invest in your stay there? Because timing, as we said before, is always a challenge in Vietnam, trying to fit as much in as you can. So how long did you have for this trip? Jack Taylor: [00:09:45] So I spent two nights and three days there. When we arrived, this was towards the end of my trip and I'd had like I'm sure many people in Vietnam when they backpacking round. We'll have a very hectic trip. And the first day that we arrived, maybe early afternoon, it was, we just relaxed and I think Ninh Binh is a good place. If you have a day to spare where you just want to chill out and Ninh Binh is probably the place to do it in northern Vietnam. The reason being Hanoi obviously as you know, is hectic wherever you go. I don't know how relaxed in a city is Sapa, as we talked about the last time I was on, can be a little hectic as well. But Ninh Binh we arrived, we made a point to stay in a hotel which kind of took advantage of the nature. I see a lot of stuff online recommending that you stay in the town. I assume there's more bars, more restaurants there. But actually I found the best thing was, and I don't usually do this staying in the hotel, we could stay in the hotel. There was a pool and you can see the mountains from the pool. You open the curtains, you can see the mountains. Our hotel was like built into one of these mountains as well. So it was a really beautiful place. And the first day we just relaxed, took it easy, maybe rode our bikes a little bit, and that was all we did the first day. The second day we did more of the traditional touristy stuff. Kerry Newsome: [00:11:19] Okay, So let's talk about some of that touristy stuff because I remember it back. My visit there was very much touristy. There was nothing in the town like you were. You were barely lucky to find a restaurant to eat at. So it was, it was very laid back. And a lot of this development has happened in the last maybe four or five years. It's kind of really stepped up in that commercialisation and development side of things. So talk to us about the most touristy things to do. Jack Taylor: [00:11:54] Yeah, there's two must do things and they are the Hang Mua viewpoint and the Tam Coc or Trang An and Boats. And let's start with the viewpoint. The viewpoint. It's like, like it says in the name, it's a viewpoint you've got to hike up. I think it's 500 and something stairs. It takes you to the top of this mountain and from the top there you get one, a view of the town. You get a view of some of the rice paddy fields nearby, and you also get a good vantage point to see the mountains from above. It's pretty high up, so you get to see the tops and the peaks of the mountains and it's probably the best, the best view in all of all of Nimbin. Kerry Newsome: [00:12:39] Is there a pagoda? There's a pagoda at the top. Jack Taylor: [00:12:43] Yeah, there's there's two actually, there's two peaks that you can climb up to. One of them has one of them has a pagoda and one of them has this long Chinese dragon statue built in the top of it. Kerry Newsome: [00:12:55] Yeah, that's, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. And I think one of them dates back to the 15th century. It's that that old. So Yeah. So if you can do the 500 stairs once again, that's not, not for everybody. But if you can do it, that view is outstanding and you don't need a drone to get some of those views. Like if you buy a trip in Hanoi to do Ninh Binh a day trip. That's probably mostly the two things that you'll do. You'll do the boat trip and then the stairs get back on the bus and come home. Jack Taylor: [00:13:37] The boat trip, I think is probably the best thing you can do. I think it trumps even the viewpoint. And that's because, like I said before, I've never seen structures like this. I've been in places where it's similar with the coastal mountains. So Gullin in China, they had it also. But what it didn't have was quite it didn't quite have the river system that was kind of running all around these mountains. So you just get an amazing view of these mountains. But it's also they've went and built temples into there. This is where I get this mist. That's why I say it's mystical. It's got a mystical feeling to it because you're pulling up on the small boat, someone's rowing, you're along, they've got the traditional Vietnamese. . Kerry Newsome: [00:14:22] The conical hat. Yeah. Jack Taylor: [00:14:24] Yeah. And you're pulling up on boat to these mountain, to these temples built into the mountainside. There's monks there praying. And that's why, that's why I say it's like a mystical feeling or a mythical feel, because it feels like you've gone back 1000 years in time. Kerry Newsome: [00:14:43] And maybe talk a little bit about the rowing technique. Jack Taylor: [00:14:47] Well, my rowing technique was let my driver do it. Kerry Newsome: [00:14:52] But you do it. Technique is going to be definitely different to yours, I bet. Jack Taylor: [00:14:58] Yeah. Yeah. So when you do it, someone you have someone who's glad to row your boat and they're well trained. So at one point ours, it was a woman, she was doing it with her feet at one point because they are so skilled. Kerry Newsome: [00:15:15] That's mostly. Jack Taylor: [00:15:16] What they take it nice. Yeah. They take it nice and easy. Nice and slow. So you get, you get full experience. I was surprised how long it was. It was two, maybe even 3 hours, two and a half, 3 hours I think it was. And the point where it must be the most difficult to navigate is they go through these cave systems so the rivers are not only going around the mountains, you're going through the mountains and out the other side as well. And it gets it gets pretty dicey at some point. There's low hanging stock, right? So you'll see the driver of the person row in the boat. They'll lean back and they'll just do it with their feet and they'll navigate through. I did bang my head at one point, so you've got to be careful. But yeah, these these cave systems, they're beautiful. I was surprised how long they went. One of them, the longest one, is a kilometer long through the mountain. It's really special. Kerry Newsome: [00:16:08] You know, I don't know whether it crossed your mind when you were there, but for me, it was like, Gosh, why haven't I known about this place before? Like, these are so unique, so, rich in just not being discovered or talked about or known about. Jack Taylor: [00:16:28] I mean, yeah, I mean, when you think about they call it the Halong Bay on land, but you could easily call Halong Bay, the Ninh Binh, the Ninh Binh on water. You know, it's, it's not necessarily less, it's not necessarily less than Halong Bay. Yeah. I was surprised that it's not it's not more famous, to be honest with you. I wouldn't be surprised. I think it's becoming more and more famous. So if you can get there sooner rather than later, I'm sure tourism will only continue to grow in the area. Kerry Newsome: [00:16:58] Yeah, and as I said, you know, from a commercial development side of things, it's really come on in the last five or six years, it used to be typically SAPA like that was the number one spot to to venture out from Hanoi. But now you've got more openness around Mu Cang Chai and Mai Chau and you know, all of those places are starting to get very big with your Instagramers and and all the rest of it. Jack Taylor: [00:17:34] Yeah. I mean, I think it's one of the most beautiful places I've ever been. There's still plenty of places in Vietnam that I need to explore. But I think I think Ninh Binh has got to compete with even the most beautiful places in the country. Kerry Newsome: [00:17:46] I think if you love Ninh Binh Jack, I don't know whether you've been to the Phong Na Caves yet. Jack Taylor: [00:17:53] No, But it's my next trip. My next trip to Vietnam will probably be Ha Giang and then, and then the caves. Kerry Newsome: [00:18:00] Yeah, I definitely would highly rate the Phong Na caves for sure. Did you have any great food or. Jack Taylor: [00:18:15] Well, the most interesting food is goat is the local speciality. And I believe it's wild Mountain goat. From what? From what I read about it, you'll see once you go up the viewpoint, the staircase, you'll see some some goats hanging around there. And I believe they just catch them from around there. It wasn't my favorite dish I've ever eaten. I think it's worth trying. I told you my last time we did a podcast that I like to do the stuff that's a bit more out there, and it was a bit chewy for my liking. But it was interesting. I never had goat before. Kerry Newsome: [00:18:52] Did you have that corn dish that they do where they fry the corn and they kind of scrape the bottom off it and then they put like pork and stuff on it. Did you try that? Jack Taylor: [00:19:03] I did, yeah. Yeah, it was delicious. I came up with the name of the dish. Yeah, but. Yeah, yeah, it's. Kerry Newsome: [00:19:08] I can't say it right now. Yeah. Com cha. Jack Taylor: [00:19:12] Yeah, It was delicious. Yeah, that was one thing. As I was doing my research going into it, I was surprised how much culture is actually in the city. So we just talked about two speciality dishes that are unique to the area. Also on top of that, Nimbin is the former capital of Vietnam and there is an ancient city there that marks a monument. But yeah, before the capital moved to Hanoi, the ancient capital was here in Ninh Binh Kerry Newsome: [00:19:40] And I've also heard I didn't experience it, but I've heard there's a lot of snail restaurants too. Did you see much of that about. Jack Taylor: [00:19:49] I did see a little bit about that. I've had snails before so I didn't feel the need to try it again, to be honest with you. But yeah, they also had some snail restaurants. Kerry Newsome: [00:19:57] Okay. What do you think's a good amount of time to spend there? And when's a good time to go? Jack Taylor: [00:20:10] So here's the mistake I think a few people make when it comes to Ninh Binh, and this is how I decided to stay that a little bit longer is I met people who'd done the tours, the day tours, and they pretty much all said they wish they had more time. I usually avoid the the tour groups if possible, so me and my wife, we decided to do it ourselves and we found that spending that extra day and just kind of taking in the environment really kind of improve the experience for us. We did a much more leisurely pace. The two big tourist points that I said before, the Ha Mau viewpoint and the Dragon boats. But we were able to do that our own pace. And the key to that was we just rent the bikes and we were able to cycle around. It's not particularly far in between those two, maybe like a 20 minute cycle. And as you make your way around, you can one stop and take photos. For me, I like to fly my drone, but it's you're kind of riding through the mountains anyway. So even though it's not necessarily a tourist experience, it's not something you certainly paying a ticket for. That really added to our experience too. And like I said before, being able to just spend time in the hotel and sit up and look at these mountains really improve the experience for me too. Kerry Newsome: [00:21:27] And like with the accommodation, I've got to ask you like, you know, was it modern? Would you class it as a four star boutique? Is it more like a homestay? Can you tell us a little bit about that? Jack Taylor: [00:21:40] They call themselves a homestay, but it was more like a small boutique hotel to me. It had a pool. It had nice big rooms, really comfortable beds. It didn't have hot water. At one point we had to get that fixed. But the hotel owner was very kind and she got that fixed, made sure it got fixed. We also left our passports there and this hotel owner made sure that we got our passports sent up to Hanoi and to our hotel. So a big thank you to the hotel owner. Kerry Newsome: [00:22:11] How wonderful. Jack Taylor: [00:22:12] I think it was her fault mind. I think she I think she kept the passports on. Kerry Newsome: [00:22:17] When. Jack Taylor: [00:22:17] When you never got them back. Stay out in the countryside. Stay in the stay in nature. Kerry Newsome: [00:22:23] So two nights. Is a good stay. Two or three nights. Jack Taylor: [00:22:28] I would say two. Two nights is you probably good, but you can spend more time there like we spoke about in the last podcast. Most people are a little bit pressed for time and the trips to Vietnam two nights is enough. I'm sure you could spend a week there. There was there was other things on the list which I didn't do. We went to go into the ancient city. However, we were a little bit pushed for time. We kind of got to cycle around the outside of it, but there's some other temples in the area. I think they have the biggest temple in Southeast Asia, nearby Ninh Binh and also nature reserves just an hour away. So if you wanted to go spend a week there, I'm sure you'd have plenty to do as well. And this was towards the beginning of October. Kerry Newsome: [00:23:20] October, beginning... Jack Taylor: [00:23:21] October, on the first day, which was the day we were spending the most time relaxed anyway. It was a little bit gloomy, but therefore not too hot. It was quite comfortable temperature on the days we were riding bike, it was still a little bit overcast and it wasn't too hot. As soon as we got back to Hanoi, the sun came out. So I'm sure that may have it would have been a little bit more tricky riding about on bikes in that kind of heat, but it was still comfortable. I feel quite comfortable. Kerry Newsome: [00:23:55] Yeah, I. October is a tricky month in the centre and the south of Vietnam, but in the north I've found I can get away with it. You know, you might get a little bit of rain or mist or a little bit of gloom and then you get, you know, big, big kind of chunks of sunshine and not too pressing heat. Jack Taylor: [00:24:19] And that kind of adds to the experience as well. Like in my video, I call it the Misty Mountains, because it you've got these tall, pointy mountains and then with this kind of fog over them, which makes it even more beautiful, in my opinion. Kerry Newsome: [00:24:31] Absolutely. Certainly more magical. Absolutely. Look, great to have you on the show again, Jack, and thanks for sharing. I'll make sure that I put the links in for everyone so that they can check you out and get inspired to to visit. Jack Taylor: [00:24:46] Thank you very much. Speaker1: [00:24:48] Thank you for listening. Check out the episode notes for more information. What about Vietnam? Don't forget to subscribe, write and review, and stay tuned for more fun adventures in Vietnam. Time Stamps:- 8.14 How best to describe Ninh Binh 9.45 How long should you stay 11.19 Must do things 15.16 The cave system 18.00 Foods unique to the region 19.57 How to spend your time wisely 20.10 Stand out experience 21.27 Best accommodation experience

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