What About Vietnam - S5-E6 Explore the ‘Land of Lychees’ – Bac Giang with a return traveller to Vietnam Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. I'm very excited today to actually bring back a guest I spoke to back in June 2021. Now that's when we weren't able to go anywhere. But my guest, Jessie Pearlman, was sitting in Hanoi and I was really keen to talk to him at the time because he'd been to a place called Mu Cang Chai and he is a wonderful photographer and I had been following him on his Instagram page and I just fell in love with his photos and his stories and he came on the show and he's been a really big hit with you. So I asked him to come back on, and he's sitting in his home in Massachusetts, I think, in the U.S., and we're going to be talking to him, believe it or not, again about his return trip to Vietnam. So, let's welcome Jesse to the program. Great to have you on the show. Jesse Pearlman: Pleasure to be here, Kerry Kerry Newsome: Well, we're going to be talking about something that I am totally naive to. And so you're going to be educating me as well as everyone listening. And we're going to be talking about the lychee or the lychee festival, which is something that I think was the trigger for you to go back. But maybe for everyone, before we get into that in detail, Maybe give us a quick recap since you came back to the US after our last recording and what you've been doing in between time Like Jesse Pearlman: I said pleasure to be coming back to the podcast. I love talking about traveling specifically in Vietnam, so It's always great. I Came home about a month after we last spoke on air and After that, I've just been in school getting a master's degree in order to teach ESL. I think there are a lot of teachers who go to Asia to teach, and I think they kind of end up not really caring about the job itself, which is fine because it's what an opportunity it is to just be able to be born speaking English and be able to teach that. For whatever reason, I really loved the job. And I loved it from the first second I did it. When I landed in Korea, felt totally unprepared. First day I walked in the classroom, just kind of felt good. I felt at ease. And I've always loved working with children. So I'm going to be an ESL instructor here in a town in Massachusetts. One of the large portion of the ESL speakers that come in through this district are Vietnamese. So looking forward to working with them and their families. And they're Southern Vietnamese, so they probably wouldn't be able to understand my terrible Northern Vietnamese, especially because I'm not very good at pronouncing it. But either way, I'm looking forward to it. Kerry Newsome: That's exciting. And good on you for taking the job. you know, seriously and wanting to put your best foot forward in that space. And I think in Vietnam, especially, the country is developing and becoming, I guess, a little bit more sophisticated in that area and wanting people of a really good caliber to come into the country if they're going to teach. And I think that's just terrific. Now, I want to get into some detail with you, and I know you've got lots to share. So you decided to go back to Vietnam just very recently. What was the real motivation for you wanting to go back? Jesse Pearlman: To see my friends, to see all my Vietnamese friends. When I lived in Korea before I came to Vietnam, All of my friends were pretty much foreigners. So I played in a foreigner baseball league. I was in this hiking group that was foreigners for the most part. And I wouldn't say I integrated very well with the host culture of Korea. But when I moved to Vietnam, the first place I lived was a very small city called Yen Bai city in the province that Mu Cang Chai , Yen Bai province. And there weren't a lot of foreigners in general, maybe three in the whole place. I just, all my friends were Vietnamese. A lot of them were, some of them were my, a lot of them were my students who were adults, but a lot of them also were just people that kind of just came up and talked to me because they knew English and others were people who didn't speak English. And we kind of communicated via Google translate a lot of the time. And then of course I made my friends in Mu Cang Chai who were Hmong. But moving to Hanoi, you know, definitely met more foreigners there, but still a lot of there were a lot of really nice people at work who I became friends with. So my point is, is I was planning on coming back to Vietnam the second I came back to America, like I was, as soon as I as soon as the borders opened, and as soon as COVID was okay. And as soon as I had the money and time, it was going to happen. I had the trip planned. for the two years. Kerry Newsome: It's really funny you say that because I've spoken to so many people who have said the only way to get over any feeling of, I don't know, despair, loss, grief when you leave the country that, you know, is to plan the next trip. That's the only way to recover from that feeling when you get back. And I know it kills me when I get home to resettle back into Australia as much as I love my country. But yeah, I have to be planning the next trip. Thankfully, what I do allows me to do that. Jesse, let's talk about what month you went to in this trip, in this new trip you did and kind of where you first landed and where you're headed to because I think that's going to be of particular interest to everyone listening. Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, absolutely. My trip was mostly in the North because that's where I lived and I also feel quite intrigued by the north. The south is really nice for beaches. But you know, if obviously you're familiar, I'm sure all listeners here on the program are familiar with the, the geography of Vietnam gets so thin, there's not a lot of action going on, like in terms of mountains, and there are some but it's not like in the north, it just really opens up. So yeah, I flew into Hanoi. and just, you know, recalibrated and stayed in Truc Bach Lake. That's the place where I lived when I was living in Hanoi. It's very beautiful. To the American listeners, it's the place where John McCain's plane was shot down, and he became one of the first prisoners of war in the American-Vietnam War. Anyway, from there, I really came to Vietnam in June, which I think you asked earlier. That was the month that I went. I knew it was going to be hot, but I planned it, one, because I'm a teacher, I had to work around that schedule, but two, because I wanted to go to see the rice planting in Mu Cang Chai, which we talked about in a previous podcast, and then also the lychee harvest in Bac Giang. That's a district or, excuse me, that's a province about two and a half hours north of Hanoi. I want to say it might even be northeast of Hanoi. Um, pretty much just take the highway to get there at first. And then there are some not fun roads on the way to this particular village. Uh, the way I'll pronounce it is I'll just try to pronounce it in a, in a way it was very tough to pronounce this word in Vietnamese, but it's, L-U-C and then N-G-A-N, Luc Ngan. And it's this little district within the province that has kind of been designated since the late 1980s as the place where lychees are harvested. Lychee, lychee, what have you, those fruits that are incredibly juicy, have a pit in the middle. Some people even call them lychee nuts. And they have that bright red, almost like alligator skin coating on them. And this is the place if you enjoy this fruit and if you enjoy tropical fruit, rare fruit, this is the place to go. And I got the whole, I got really the whole tour of all the experiences you could have and I'm We'll definitely dive into that in a moment, but that was what I really wanted to see, funnily enough. Like that was my, that was one of my big goals of this trip. Kerry Newsome: So we're talking June and we're talking a trip by design to basically head straight for Bac Giang. Jesse Pearlman: That's a great question. It was just a two or three day trip. Honestly, I did it in about 24 hours and it was very doable. I think if you are a tourist who just kind of wants to have a little bit more time to just take things all in and you don't want to feel like you're constantly packing and moving, a two-day trip would be nice. I'm sure there's some other aspect. I know, for instance, they have a lake around that area. However, the weather is hot. I just think that it's a really nice trip you can do out of Hanoi for about one or two days And just get this experience that really has not been treated to a lot of tourists, even Vietnamese tourists. I would say a lot of them were surprised that that was a thing that I wanted to do. And I think the reason I wanted to do it was one, because I love lychees, but two, really for the photography and for the photos of these, these men and women bringing in you know, hundreds and kilos of lychees on the back of their motorbikes all at the same time to the morning market to have them shipped off to the countrywide, uh, to places like Japan and Korea, China in huge, massive amounts, the United States in massive amounts. And, uh, I mean, 180,000 tons of lychees are harvested each year in Bac Giang . It's the biggest. output in the country and they're one of the main countries that supply lychees to the world. Kerry Newsome: It's phenomenal, isn't it? I've seen the photos or some photos of the motorbikes absolutely chock-a-block all together coming down the street, etc. full to the brim with the lychees, or leeches as we figured out. We don't know which one is the right way to say it. I don't know. We'll just go with it anyway. But like 180,000 tons, that is definitely a lot of lychees. Tell us, Jessie, you said that you took the road, it's two and a half hours out of Hanoi. Did you do that by bike or did you decide to take a tour? What would you suggest for everyone to actually get out to this district is the best way, especially for new tourists? Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, I guess for new tourists, if you are not comfortable on a motorbike, I would not take it. There was a lot of highway driving. It rained the whole time. So I had to go very slow and pull over multiple times. And after the major highway, the road was unpaved and therefore there were puddles, it was going up and down. I would definitely suggest, depending on your level of motion sickness, either taking a bus or taking a private car. Private cars, and they call them transfers, are really readily available in Vietnam. I mean, any quick search will bring you to a company that, yes, they have set tours, but you can call them and ask them, I want you to just drive me to this place. You can pay for someone, pay extra for someone that can speak English who drives, or it can just be a person who drives that speaks Vietnamese. They still tend to be very friendly and wonderful people regardless. That's how I would suggest getting there. I think my motorbike experience, and this is someone who loves riding motorbikes, was not that pleasant. I did not enjoy the ride. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and I think it's important to kind of mention this because I have a lot of listeners that are really comfortable on bikes and, you know, have really traversed the country on motorbikes and done very well. But they are experienced riders in their own countries. I get nervous when I hear about or people are talking about, you know, just hiring a motorbike and off they go on a scooter and off they go when, you know, the roads in some areas are okay, but for long distances, the combination of weather and then when the road goes, you know, muddy and potholes and sometimes chock-a-block with traffic. I know that, you know, sometimes going around Ha Giang, that, you know, people have said you've got to queue in traffic to do the loop. So, you know, it's something to consider, but making sure that when you're considering this, you're getting the best advice possible for the locality that you're going into. Jesse Pearlman: I completely agree. And I think that the motorbiking thing is no joke in Vietnam. The number one death cause is motorbiking in Vietnam. So yeah, it's a huge situation. I think for people who are not advanced motorbikers, they should not take it with that. And people who are, my argument would just be it wasn't fun. Like I love driving my motorbike up through big passes, big mountain passes, but this was really bumpy and the traffic therefore was quite bad because of the unpaved roads. So I would definitely recommend taking either a bus or a A private car would be even better because it'll make the traffic feel a lot better. Kerry Newsome: I must admit, I'm a girl that's kind of built for comfort, not speed, so I definitely go with the private car option. Jesse Pearlman: My girlfriend agrees, by the way. When she came to visit me, she came for one of the weeks I was in Vietnam. She came from Massachusetts. She's a doctor, left America, came back, worked the next day. When she came back, she's an absolute trooper. But I was there for about a week with me, and yeah, it was private transfers all the way for both of us. That's what she told me. Kerry Newsome: Jessie, let's just talk a little bit about accommodation before we get into what you experienced around the Lychee's. Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, so I reached out to a woman who I worked with, I think I mentioned earlier. I had some friends from work, and she was from Bac Giang and she lived close to this Lychee area, and she was almost my in. Because if you look up lychee harvest in Pakistan, there's a lot of articles that are more or less just pumped out by the government. They use this word very liberally, the term propaganda. There's not as negative connotation with that word in Vietnam. So they write these articles just being like, yeah, this place is great. Look at how awesome we're doing with how much lychees we're picking. But there aren't a ton of blogs about people going there. So it was difficult for me to just figure out, do I just go? Like, I have my motorbike. I know where the place kind of is. I can just figure it out myself. I still reached out to someone who then put me in touch with a woman who actually runs a tour service in Luke Nunn for the Leeches and other tropical, other nice fruits that they grow. Once I was able to get in touch with that woman, it was actually quite difficult because of the language barrier. But once again, we are living in an era where we have this technology to be able to speak with each other and then translate our sentences. And Google Translate for Vietnamese is really good. I don't know if you ever had anybody talking about that on the podcast before. communication with locals and stuff. Google Translate is pretty awesome. It works quite well. We were able to communicate that way. Basically, she booked a hotel for me and then met me at the hotel when I arrived. The hotel was in the town where one of the markets takes place. It's probably a 10-kilometer stretch of where the orchards are and also where the markets are. But this is one of the main ones. And it was Luke Nunn Town. So she met me there. And then through Google Translate, just kind of said to me, hey, why don't you go shower and get ready? My husband will pick you up at 6.30. We're going to have dinner at our place. So I had already gotten excited, had Vietnamese dinners before with local families, and they're incredible. But this one was more than I ever could have imagined. It turns out that they live in this, or at least where their restaurant place was, was this grand outdoor place. And, you know, there were the fountains all over the place, large rocks with insignia. It was very, it was designed in a way that reminds me of kind of the Northern Vietnamese design. And there were various gazebos within the nature, flowers growing all over the place. And yeah, they just treated me to this dinner. I mean, obviously it came within the price of the tour, but yeah, we had this dinner that was expansive with some of the best stuff, you know, deep fried pork. You know, slow roasted pork and duck and then some really like some specialties from the region. Of course, all the leeches. At one point through the meal, the dad just took me with him and we walked outside their property across the street. And there were these men. It was raining. It was nighttime. They had full reindeer on and and flashlights on their head. And they were just harvesting leeches. And the guy talked to him and just said, hey, could you give some to my friend? And they just gave me fresh off the tree leeches. And that was a little sneak preview of what was to come. Kerry Newsome: We'll make sure that we put any contact with this lady in the show notes for people. So if you want to do this, you can reach out directly. Did she have a Facebook page or something like that? Because most people do. Jesse Pearlman: She had a Facebook page. So this is what's tricky about traveling in Vietnam. She had a Facebook page and most Vietnamese people are, are using Facebook and some people, however, especially it's kind of an older fashion thing is they're really, and actually maybe it's not because we do it in America. They're very phone based. They, they want your phone number and they want to text you and they want to call you. So the best way that people reach her and in a lot of these small businesses in Vietnam is they call. And that's out of the question for me. So, uh, I'm not going to be able to hold, I can speak a little Vietnamese, but I can't hold the phone conversation. I mean, just your ability to listen over the phone and the quality, quality, sound quality is important. So it's hard to understand them. And so, uh, then the other version they use is, um, this Vietnamese, Messaging app called Zalo. So if you go to Vietnam and you have a Vietnamese phone number You can download this app and then it's like WhatsApp or something and you can use it however, if you don't register with the Vietnamese number and what I did to get my SIM card was just Paying for a data plan. I now can't use Zalo. So now she's She's on her third method of communication, which is Facebook and that's the only way I can reach her And so it just took her a little bit, a while to figure out messenger, I think. And it was, she's, she's usually on the phone or texting or using Zalo. So once we were able to connect, the communication was great. She was on point 100% of the way. And after I finished that dinner, she told me that her husband was going to pick me up at 5am and we were going to go to the lychee market. Yeah, that's that's where it all began. That was this procession. I'd seen videos of this lychee procession and you get in a lychee traffic jam on the main road of the town just because there's so many cars coming in or motorbikes but also massive trucks that they fill with lychees for transportation. Kerry Newsome: Okay, so let's talk about that visit and that experience so that people can kind of get a visual. I'm sure you've got some great photos that I'll also put up on the page for people to see. But yeah, talk us through just what happened. They picked you up at 5 a.m. Where to from there? Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, so they picked me up at 5 a.m. and you're basically just on a motorbike. He drove my motorbike. I highly recommend for this portion of the trip, you're going to want this guy or another person to drive you on a motorbike and you're on the back. This is a very safe place to drive. No one's going over 10 kilometers per hour because of the amount of l ychee traffic. It's perfect. You have range of motion. for yourself, taking pictures, for you to turn around while he's driving. It's definitely the way to go. You can do it on foot. You definitely shouldn't do it on car, via car, because you'll just be stuck behind everything. But the motorbike's the way to go for this one. So basically, from what I understand, is there's a river that separates the town and the road from the lychee orchards. And that's where the people are collecting lychees, and they're starting at 2 a.m. on their farms, picking lychees out at dark. And then once, as soon as sunrise hits, they bike across these kind of hanging bridges. I'm sure some of the listeners have seen these bridges up in the mountains that kind of are one lane and feel like they could break at any time, but somehow they don't. I mean, the engineering in Vietnam is just incredible. But they drive across those, and then it's just kind of a race for them to get their stuff to the market. And once they're in line for the market, there's a person who comes along and almost seems to be appraising the lychees. And once they've been appraised, they then give the driver a little paper ticket that they can now give to whoever they're selling their market to, that basically it's been approved or appraised. I'm not sure whether the ticket system is how good your lychees look, and therefore you get a higher price, or whether you've just been cleared to do trade. But either way, something's going on. I go there, and it's just pandemonium. At these markets, it's absolute pandemonium. People are trying to grab all the leeches, they wash them off with the hose, they put them in these huge, almost pools, and wash them off and then drain them out. And then there's also men with gloves carrying dry ice, which is used for packaging, especially going to places like China, or other parts of Vietnam, or honestly, pretty much everywhere, just to make them remain as fresh as possible. And this dry ice, from what I would imagine, is like should not be touching your skin whatsoever. And like they come darn close to having a touch their skin, just casually bringing it from the truck onto the place. So that's, that's a site. And I have pictures of that too, uh, that, that you can include just to get a better, um, idea of it. But anyway, there's all these leachy people driving around left and right. And meanwhile, they're really interested in you, the foreigner being there because it's not a place where people go to. I, as a, as a photographer of people of something I've recently been doing, I'm still a little bit shy and feel a little bit bad of just taking pictures unsolicited of folks. And in a place like Mukong Chai where they're, they're quite shy. I don't really go out and try to take pictures of people unless I'm at a social gathering anymore. And even then I, I tried to do it only when I feel like they are going to give consent and it's. It feels like a safe space. But here, everybody's just smiling, posing, having a great time. It's totally new to them. And they're just, I don't know, they don't care. It doesn't affect their day. To them, that's at least how they see it. And so I had a lot of great interactions. And all the drivers were saying, oh, here, just take my lychees. Take as many as you want. I mean, they know you're not going to take a ton from them. Even if you did, by the way, which is something I haven't mentioned yet, a kilogram of these lychees are like one US dollar. So you're paying an unbelievably tiny amount. I left this entire place. They gave me a gift at the end, part of, I guess, this package. They gave me like five kilograms of lychees. It was way too much. I could not finish them. And this man told me that he eats, the man who ran the tour with his wife, told me that he eats one to two kilograms a day during lychee season. Wow. Kerry Newsome: So tell me, how long does it take to grow a lychee and what is required? Is it a tree? Is it in the soil? To be honest, as I said, I started this off by saying I'm clueless. Sure. Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, so I remember my mom growing up telling me it was a lychee nut. That is not the case. It grows from a tree. It grows from a tree in an orchard that looks similar to apple orchards. You know, short trees bent over, many short branches kind of bending over in an umbrella shape. Although the leaves run a little bit more wild, so it looks a little bit more healthy, I would say, than an apple tree. I think that the lychees probably it's a year-round process, but obviously, the heat plays a major role. So once summer rolls in, that's when they're going to start growing. And summer really begins in Vietnam, usually between April and May. Kerry Newsome: Do they take a year to grow? So it's like if they harvest every May, June or June, July, is that roundabout? Yes. Jesse Pearlman: It's a year. Yeah. It's only annually. It's just like the rice and mucang chai. It's just once a year. And it's from June to early July, pretty much all of the month of June. I came later on in June. And, you know, as I just described to you, it was the most of any one, maybe of one thing, like one unit of food I've ever seen in my entire life. And the whole time at that market, the man kept apologizing to me because of how few of these there were. And how much, how much crazier it was like, uh, in the peak part. And I was like, you know, couldn't believe that he said that, but yeah. So, uh, it's, it grows just at that one time a year and it's a little bit elevated, um, in terms of, uh, elevation, like, uh, it has to do with a little bit chilly winds and, uh, that has a major portion. And I think it's the humidity as well. That helps. these lychees grow. It used to be in a place called Haizhou, which I think might be its own province as well. I might be mistaken about that. But they ended up moving it to Bac Giang and Luc Ngan in particular, I think just because of changing weather conditions. I think they just determined that this was going to be the best growing conditions. Kerry Newsome: Is there any kind of medicinal aspect of the lychees? Are they good for you? I mean, people having, you know, one kilo a day seems, you know, exorbitant, but like, is there some kind of value or, you know, how does it play in their culture as far as their meals and, you know, how they treat the lychees? Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, it really, to me, seems like it is a giant export business. I think that it is just a massive opportunity for them to make money and for the country to make money, to bring them all around the world, and especially in Asia. That's the number one concern. I think the second part is definitely that it's a specialty and they're very proud of it, and they definitely eat it all the time for dessert. You might always just have some surplus lying around, too. You know, at night, sometimes when men, the men in Vietnam drink, they'll finish their drinking and they'll finish it by having some tea. And then during the tea, they might bring out some lychee, um, in a situation like that. And then I think that, uh, a funny thing about lychees and what people in Vietnam say is that it gives you really bad acne. Now I had never experienced that. And then I asked the people who ran the tour and they laughed and said, no, absolutely not. So that's a myth. It might just be a myth. It might be a myth. But when you asked me the questions about benefits, that was the first thing that came to mind. Right. Kerry Newsome: Well, yeah, getting acne probably is not a benefit for a lot of people. Jesse Pearlman: Exactly. It's a medical response. Yeah, it is a medical response. Kerry Newsome: Sure. OK. Is there anything else you want to tell everyone about this visit, this location, this experience before we kind of wrap things up? Jesse Pearlman: I think that one thing I would say is that like, you know, we are all dealing with a lot of small businesses struggling to stay afloat. And if you come to this place in Vietnam, you are supporting a small business. Like these are a group of people that pretty much have other jobs and are just doing this for one or two months a year. just trying to make a little bit more money to support their families. And these people were just absolute sweethearts were so efficient and good at their job. And, uh, I, I just don't really think that a lot of people know about it. And if you're in Hanoi, it's really not a huge extension in there. You know, they're just places that are getting really, really over touristed, which I think is another issue. in particular, like Ha Giang, the Ha Giang loop. The difference between when I left for Vietnam and now that was one of like the updates that people gave me was just, yeah, Ha Giang is almost like, it's untenable at this point. I don't know if they were, you know what I'm saying? So in places like that, I'd encourage people to maybe try to go somewhere different. And you're certainly going to get a response from the local people that is really positive because they're going to be so like interested in you. And hopefully, you know, if you're interested in Vietnam as a culture, that's a good thing to me because you can make more connections. And if you're a photographer, connections and photography go hand in hand, you can really form trust with these people and show them your kindness and, you know, if you want to give them some money after you take their picture, that's totally reasonable thing to want to do and to do. So, yeah, I just think supporting the small areas of Vietnam while we also have some really heavily touristed places. Ha Long Bay, another example. Here's some options. Here's another option for you. to take a two day, one day even trip out of Hanoi, get yourself picked up from your hotel and drop right back off there and you spend a night in a hotel which is a totally fine hotel, which is where I stayed. No issues. Kerry Newsome: Jesse, from a minority group standpoint, are they mostly Hmong in that area? Jesse Pearlman: Actually, they're pretty much all Vietnamese. Okay, this area is not an ethnic minority Location it's yeah, this is a pretty Vietnamese area. And I think that it's it's pretty close to Hanoi still to Relative to how far places can take to get in the north and I should also mention I just remember there's you like lotuses ,There's tons of lotus fields on the way and people selling lotuses on the side of this other road So it's another area, it's a very fertile area, the whole country is really fertile. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and I think you're right in saying that the North has certainly got that diversity, it's got the mountainous areas, it's got the diversity in minority groups and different experiences totally to the South, very, very, very different. So, I've been fascinated to find out about these lychees because I've seen them and I've gone, you know, what's the story there? Because it was just crazy that these bikes were just queued up for miles, it looked like, with these lychees. So, as an export business, I'm really glad that Vietnam can produce these and sell these around the world. They're an unusual fruit. They are kind of a prickly pear, for want of a better word, with that nut in the middle. I mean, how many can you consume in one sitting? Like, I could only do about two or three. That's a great question. I don't know. How many can you do? Jesse Pearlman: I'm a little bit more, I can do more than that, maybe like 10 or 15. Oh, wow. But I'll like, I'll go back to it. That's, that's what I'm about is I'll just, you know, I'll eat three or four or five and then maybe come back to it in a little bit. And also I should mention that it's very, at least for me, my experience was that it was very within Vietnamese culture for if you're eating food with, with Vietnamese people, they are going to encourage you to eat more and more and more. That was also some, some of the reasons why I ate more lychees than maybe I would have normally. Kerry Newsome: Look, thanks, Jessie. Thanks for being on the program. It's been really informative. I hope people will consider going out to this region. Let's make sure we put as many links as we can in the notes for people so that they can reach out because I'm all for supporting local businesses, community-based businesses, and Just giving people that extra information, I think, goes a long way to do that. So thanks again, Jesse, for being on the show. Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, and you know, just as an added thing, if you're not able to get in touch with these people, you're always welcome to reach out to me. My Instagram is PearlmanJ1, Pearlman, like a pearl earring, and then man, and then J, my first name, Jesse, PearlmanJ1. So if you want to send me a message on there, Or you could send me a Facebook message, Jesse Perlman is my name on Facebook. I can help you get there. So, you know, it wasn't easy for me. I want to try to make it easier. Kerry Newsome: That's really wonderful. And I'll make sure I put those links also in the notes and on the show page. Thanks again, Jesse. Hope you have a great day. Jesse Pearlman: Okay.

What About Vietnam S5 – E24 Ha Giang: Insider Tips for an Unforgettable Adventure Kerry Newsome : Now, Ha Giang is characterized by towering limestone casts, winding mountain passes, terrace rice fields, and changing colors with the seasons. You know, words like breathtaking, unbelievable are often referred to about this area. The last show I did on Ha Giang was with Tom Stone back in series 3, Episode 5. And that would be another reference point for you. And I'll put the link in the show notes if you want to go and explore there. Now, In some way, it's kind of an area that is steeped kind of back in time. Visitors can immerse themselves in the culture of various ethnic groups in the area, each with unique traditions and festivals. Let's welcome Ying to the show. Ying, it's a pleasure to have you with us. How are you? Hello. How are you? I'm very good, thanks Ying. It's really great to have you on the show. I am very excited to chat with you. Ying Hang : It's really nice to meet you here too. Looking forward to that. Kerry Newsome : Okay, Ying. Now, I'm going to ask you lots and lots of questions, as I'm sure when you have your travellers and you go around Tarzan, they do the same thing. But firstly, can I ask you a little bit about your personal background and growing up in Tarvan village in Sapa? Tell me a little bit about that. Ying Hang : So I'm from Ta Van originally. I grew up in the farm, like normal farming. And even today, my family still farm. So then when I was a kid, I had a dream that I don't want to farmer. Then I had to find some way to leave the farm and do what I, because when at that time, it was like the year of 2000. And I was only nine. So I see some tourists come to my village. And I thought, yeah, maybe this is a good job for the future. And then I had a dream that I want to be independent. So then I start to learn English. So I start to sell the handy crafts to the tourists come to my village. Then I start to learn English. I think it's about two years later that I moved to Sapa town. It's very small and small town at that time. We have like 30,000 in the whole area. Then I start to learn more English and I make more friends and that's how I become a tour guide after all. Kerry Newsome : Wow. So, you actually got to, you got your dream. Mm-hmm. I got my dream because I want to be a tour guide. That is fantastic. I love that you you had that vision for yourself. Was there something else in your family or were there people in your family that kind of encouraged you to do this? Ying Hang : Inspired you to do this? No, I don't have any family members were doing the tour like selling handicraft, but My cousin, she was, she speak English and she was already gay at that time. So I think, I say to myself, I want to be like her. And this is my dream job. And I would, I have to get there. Kerry Newsome : And so this is part of Dragon Mountain family group. Yeah, that that is you and your cousin, right? Ying Hang : Yeah, me and my sister and my cousin. Oh, fantastic. Kerry Newsome : Okay. Yeah. All right. Now, for my listeners that, you know, look at Instagram and, you know, TikTok and all the social media, there's lots and lots of photos and videos and everybody's an expert and everybody's doing it differently. So, let's start at the very beginning by talking about Ha Giang as in where is it? Where is it located in connection to Hanoi? Ying Hang : Hanoi is, Hanoi is north, north centre of Vietnam. So, you go directly from Hanoi to Hanoi. Because now where my hometown is northwest and Hanoi is north, north. Kerry Newsome : So, from Hanoi, it's about 300 kilometres, I think, roughly? Ying Hang : Yes, that's correct. 320 kilometres away from Hanoi. Okay. And it's about six or seven hours by car? It's about six hours by car or even like a bus is about six hours as well. Kerry Newsome : Okay. I think with motorbike maybe a little bit longer. Ying Hang : Yeah, not normally if the people do the motorbike, they would have to travel by province by province, not straight from Hanoi, it's too far. Okay. Kerry Newsome : So, essentially, Ha Giang is located kind of so far north of Vietnam, it almost borders China, correct? Ying Hang : Yeah, it's near the border about from Hainan City to China is 20 kilometers. Okay. Kerry Newsome : And if we were to describe this area, tell me if you think this description is a good one. So, it's kind of known to be rugged and very remote, and it features a lot of dramatic landscapes. And sometimes it's so deep and the valleys are rich in a like a colourful array of vegetation. And sometimes when it rains, some of those hills, they collapse onto the road. And sometimes when it's in the right time of the year, it is golden yellow in flourishing rice fields. Ying Hang : Yeah. Yeah. So, Ha Giang is A little bit warmer than in my hometown. They are the same weather in Hanoi. So they can do two harvests per year in the valley, but in the mountain, like, let's say, 20, no, 10 km away from the Ha Giang city, there is much colder, higher up. It's about 2,000 m from Ha Giang. so we do have a very green valley and have like a rainforest and national park map and lots of rice fields and the red zone people and the Hmong they are living in that area so during the beautiful season of visiting if you like green that is in July It is raining time, but if you like the weather, you like sunny and hot, then I recommend October is the best. Then you see all the yellow valley, because that time everybody will go to harvesting. Some people harvest, some is not yet, but most likely it's ready for harvest. Kerry Newsome : As far as Ha Giang town is concerned, talk to us a little bit about the town itself before we actually start on the loop. Ying Hang : Okay. So, Ha Giang city is Right at the valley with a lot of mountains on the side and there is a river. So the name of the river is Lo and they are crossing in the middle. So both sides is the Hazan city. And they are 7000 square meters around there. and we have 750,000 people live there and this day is quite remote but 10 years ago was much better and also now for tourists to go to Hazan it's a lot easier because there is many hotel many hostel and also a lot of easy rider they start from there as well so Hazan city is good for the first night you are arriving you spend the night and the next day you're ready for the tour right so Kerry Newsome : For people planning, you're going to arrange transport from Hanoi. It's going to take you about six or seven hours and you're going to have your first night in Ha Giang City, correct? Yes. Okay. So that's one day, because I'm going to get to the part about how much time you need to allow. Because sometimes people say, Oh, you know, I just, you know, going to go up and come back in two days. And you go, actually, no, that's not possible, because it takes you a day to get there. So it's important for people to appreciate the timing. My next question is around Like, while it's possible, I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, to explore the area by yourself, tell us a little bit about, you know, do you need a guide to do this well, or can you do it by yourself? Ying Hang : You can choose because a lot of people, they also do by themselves too. But one thing that you don't learn much about the area. You will go and you'll see the beautiful part, but then you don't learn any culture or you don't know what they're doing there. Kerry Newsome : From my perspective, this is what I think. Firstly, I think people would struggle with the navigation, just knowing where to go, how to go around things. So I think, you know, it's challenging. It's got winding mountain passes and unpredictable weather. The second thing I think, as you say, is sometimes when, you know, us mere travellers get there and we're looking at things, we don't really know what we're seeing. We don't really understand it. So, unless you have a guide like yourself or someone to tell us about this, it doesn't have quite the same impact on us, I think. That's another reason I think having a guide is good. The second last thing is I think about safety. you know, I hear some stories of some tragic things that happen. And, you know, even things like getting pulled up by the police and, you know, getting fines and things like that. So, there's a range of things that could happen on your trip up there that you wouldn't know how to handle. Yet if you have a guide with you, they can explain it. They've obviously got the language and things like that. And then there's just the convenience. I find a lot of comfort in being with someone who knows that area. Like I've done a lot of traveling. I've got a very close Vietnamese friend. And her and I go traveling a lot to places. And just the advantage of having her with me to A, speak in Vietnamese, but B, also to explain something to me, tell me to avoid something, you know, all that kind of stuff just helps me get it right. So, I think navigation is important, getting an understanding of the culture, So, you know what you're saying, safety and I think convenience, having someone by your side to explain things. So, they're the things that I think having a guide is all about. Tell me some of the things that when you're taking people around, what are they saying to you? What are they asking you? What are the things that come up for them instantly? This is a good question. Ying Hang : So, they will say, how did the tourists found this place? Because a lot of time, if they were in their country, they could not found Hazan. I think it's because we spelled it different, and if they want to look online, they spelled it different. So, that's why it's harder for them to find. Kerry Newsome : Can't find it, that's right, because it's G-I-A-N-G, but it sounds like Zang. Ha Giang. Yeah. I can, that's good, I haven't heard that said before. So what else do they say when they arrive in Ha Giang and they have lots of questions? What are some of the questions they ask? Ying Hang : I think I pretty much I tell them everything and they don't ask me too much. Kerry Newsome : I can imagine that. I can imagine that happening. Absolutely. Ying Hang : They will ask me, like, how many people live in here and what do they do for a living and how do they survive in this rocky mountain? But I also explain, like, from the beginning, this is how they live and they have, like, they don't have rice in that mountain. They cannot plant rice. They have to plant corn. and it's only one crop per year. And we have to start from March to June, July, they collect the corn. And during that time, when they collect the corn, they have to sell it to buy the rice, or they make a rice wine and sell it to make the income. Kerry Newsome : So they sell the rice wine, the happy wine. Ying Hang : They sell the corn wine. Kerry Newsome : The corn wine. Yes. Ying Hang : Yeah. Kerry Newsome : Okay. That is strong stuff. I've tried a little bit of that and my head nearly blew off. So, yeah. It is quite strong. It is quite strong. Absolutely. And not really easy tasting either. I don't like the tasting. No, it's not so smooth. It's very whiskey taste. Yes, absolutely. If you were to paint a picture for a person about Haozhang, what would you put in that picture? What are the key things that you would put in that picture? Ying Hang : I think I would paint Lolo people or Hmong in between those two. What people are they? Explain. Lolo. Lolo. Lolo people. Yeah. Have you heard much about them? No. More about Hmong. They are very… Thai and Dao. Yeah. because why I want to put them in there because they're very colorful. The dress are very flower and very pretty. In Vietnam, we don't have many of them. We have like over 4,000 people and they're living in Hà Giang and basically Mèo Vát, Đông Văn in Bảo Lạt district. They're very Chinese look. They are also farmers? Kerry Newsome : Everyone is. Everyone is farmer in that region. Unless they get a dream like you and work hard to become guide. If we're talking about getting back to our timing aspect, a day to get there and a day to come back, how many days do you suggest people allow to go around the loop? Ying Hang : So I suggest three nights, four days, but you can take the night bus from Hanoi. By the night time, you arrive in Ha Giang about midnight, and then you stay at the hotel. The morning, you pack. Then you, a guy and a driver pick you up. So you have three nights in the mountain, and then back. So basically, four days and six nights, or five and a half nights, something like that. Four to five days, yeah. Kerry Newsome : minimum. Yeah. Okay. This gives you time for a bit more of a pacing, because as I understand, you are traveling long distances each day. So, let's talk about also the way to explore the region. So, If we're talking about the loop, talk to us about how many miles you do per day and which is the best way to do it by car, by bike, by passenger on a bike, etc. Ying Hang : because everybody have a different experience and everyone wants to try different right so mostly the younger one like 18 to 30 most of them want to go in the easy rider because they want to experience how like the 1d road but also it's very dangerous if you don't know how to drive you must have an easy rider and beside that you need to have an international driving license for the police checking. We have like four or five different police station checking for the license. And if you don't know this, then you get fined. Every stop, they stop you. You have to pay like $100 per time. Okay, I want to stop you there. Kerry Newsome : So that means you have to have a license, a bike riding license in your own country. Yes, that in Vietnam is recognized. Yes, and that's only come up in the last couple of months. The laws on, you just can't have a car license, you've got to have a bike license and you have to be considered an experienced rider. So like I had someone contact me this week and they want to do the Ha-Zang loop, and they wanted to know about this license. And they have been writing for 15 years in their own country, in New Zealand, and, you know, so they're going to be coming with the right qualifications. But as you say, it's not the place to come to, to just jump on a bike, hire it straight away from Ha Giang and then go around. That would be considered very dangerous. Now, back to you. So, if you don't want to do that way, you can be a passenger on an easy rider. That's what easy rider is about, right? And that's the kind of younger people and we understand that. If you don't want to do that, what's the option? Ying Hang : If you don't want to do that, then you can take a car like a tour guide and a car. So it's much safer. You definitely will see more and learn more because your guide is with you. And then you can do some more walking, hiking into the villages. And they will show you like much more than you go by Easy Rider or you drive yourself. Because we will measure the time when we're doing the day. Every day we have a schedule. So we have full day to do the activity and we know what exactly to do. Kerry Newsome : If I come to you and we leave Ha Giang on a day, how much of that day would be on the road? Ying Hang : So for the first day, We drive about 150 kilometers away from Hazan. But on that way, we stop many places. So then we have a fully scheduled life. First place, Heaven's Gate. Second is the twin. And then the third is where the lady who's weaving the fabric and making the clothing. And then the fourth, we stop in one of the town called In Ming. That's for lunch. And then we go to the King Palace in Laos and then Dong Van for the night. That's just day one? Kerry Newsome : Yeah. Right. And where do you stay in the evening? Ying Hang : We stay at the hotel in Dong Van. You can choose like a hotel or homestay. Kerry Newsome : Right. Can you explain the difference about a homestay versus the hotel and the standard? Ying Hang : yeah so hotel it's in the mountain there is very basic it's like two-star or one-star hotel it's nothing fancy because it's open for tourism not long ago and to develop it's not very okay because it's a unit school so you can't build too many fancy but the homestay you can stay with the family and spend the night with them and have dinner and see their life, learn about their life and culture. In the evening you get to share with them. Okay. Kerry Newsome : Now, I know this is going to sound very basic, but like things like a shower, private bathroom, toilet, things like that. I know some people don't care at all about it, but For me, I'm an older lady, and those things are important to know. If I know what to expect. They have everything. So the hotel, would you have a private toilet? Or would it be shared? Ying Hang : You own bed. No, the bathroom is in the room. So you have everything private. But sometimes homestay have to sharing. Right. Depends what you order. Because they have like a little private room that you have everything in the room. If you want to share in the dorm, you can have a dorm. If you want a private room, they give you a private room. Kerry Newsome : Okay. Good to know. All right. So, that's day one. What would be day two? Ying Hang : So, day two, we have more options to choose. So, we can choose to have breakfast at 7.30 normally that's what I do basically because it's a long day yeah so breakfast 7.30 then we drive to Lung Ku flat where the Lolo people living that is where the border China about three kilometers away and with a beautiful view landscape with the Lolo, Hmong, Thai and where else? Nung people living in that valley Then after the view, visit, learn a little bit about the culture and the history about that mountain. Then we come back to Dong Van. Then we drive to Ma Pi Lan mountain. That is the most beautiful place the whole trip. Then we can do, we will do some hiking. Okay. Kerry Newsome : The evening, after a long drive, everyone tired. Because it's been a busy day. Yeah. So, they stay in another homestay, another… Another homestay. Another homestay. Because I would think… Every night we stay different. Right. Second night. Because not many hotels out there. More homestay. Ying Hang : No. We stay different, yeah, different homestay every night. Kerry Newsome : Right. Okay. So then on day three, are we nearly on the loop coming back to Ha Giang or still a long way from Ha Giang? Ying Hang : We go further to Yiming and Suzhou. so that it's beautiful and discovered not long ago and it's quite popular for tourists who want to swim and there's a waterfall so everybody want to go there and visit but Zouza village is very beautiful it's in the valley of the big Yeah. Kerry Newsome : And when you go to these places, is there a lot of other tourists there? Like, is it super busy and lots of… It is super busy, but you choose where you want to be quiet. Ying Hang : Ah. Kerry Newsome : It's less touristy. And this is where you come in very handy to explain and take people to areas that they couldn't find by themselves, right? Yeah, yes, that's correct. Okay, so now we've been three days around the loop. What do we do on day four? Ying Hang : So on the day four, breakfast, same, same, every day morning, every morning, same hour for breakfast, then we drive back to Quang Ba with a Thursday. We have to travel different direction to the first day then we were going back to Ha Giang in the afternoon and some people can take the bus like four o'clock or they can take the sleeping bus to Hanoi or they decided to go to Sa Pa by that direction okay so yeah so day four basically return all right so you check me and tell me if i understand correctly okay day one i travel from Hanoi to Ha Giang city yes Kerry Newsome : Day two, three, four, I am traveling around the loop. Day five is the last day and I come back into Ha Giang, but a different way. And I can, but if I got back late, wouldn't I want to stay the night and then go back to Hanoi the next day? Ying Hang : Yeah, you can also do that or you can catch the late night bus at 10 o'clock. Kerry Newsome : At 10 o'clock. Wow. Ying Hang : At 10pm. So, you can, you can leave late in the night time. Right. Kerry Newsome : And you are arriving at about 3am. So, now I'm going to ask a very tricky question, as in, who are the type of people who this is best for? Like, I'm not the most… No, I'll say this another way. I am… I'm not the best outdoor person. That's the best way to describe it. I am very circumspect about where I travel in Vietnam and if I'm capable of doing the level of trekking involved so that I don't injure myself for the rest of the stay. So, like, is there, like, for you, do you try and guide people that are mostly younger people or older people or, like, I need some kind of Ying Hang : understanding of level of fitness yeah yeah so there I mostly guide the my customer around your age they're not always young you're kidding Really? No. Yeah. They are around 50 plus. Yeah. Mostly. That's me. And family. So yeah. So for the options of trekking you can choose. If you cannot do this trekking and I can always find you another direction that it's easy for you. So there is always option because it's like I know the area well. I don't have to just take only one trail the whole time. I can always change it. When I normally do tour, I always say, how far can you go and how is your health condition? So then I can decide on that day what schedule we're taking. Kerry Newsome : That's very comforting to hear. But like your experience now, you've been doing this for quite a long time. what would be the, I'm trying to understand the general population of people that would come to you. Are they mostly 50 or, because firstly they have to find you and I just want to let everyone know that's listening. I'm going to put Ying's link in the show notes so you don't have to remember everything she says. You're going to be able to communicate with her directly through her website. I also advise a lot of people on putting trips together. So, I plan the trip. So, someone arrives into Hanoi and maybe they do Ninh Binh and maybe they do Sa Pa and then I can arrange to come to you and I plan everything. What do they need to know before they come? Like what is like about clothing, about health and fitness, about everything like that? What would you say? Ying Hang : So for the, because different season, I would, I will tell you what to bring. So in summer, usually in the nighttime temperature drop in the mountains, so you always have to bring one long sleeve, but mostly long, Long pants or long trousers is always good because we have mosquitos when you do the hiking around the villages. And in summer, it's quite hot so you always have to bring a lot of sun cream. In case if it's raining, you need to have a jacket like a rain jacket or umbrella, whatever. Sun cream, mosquito sprays, insect sprays. And clothing, in summer, it don't really have problem but winter, Winter for us sometimes is not as cold as in Europe or in Australia. But to us we are cold. Like 5 or 10 degrees is quite cold for us. Kerry Newsome : I have been to Sapa and it's been freezing. I have had a big puffed jacket on and I go straight to my hotel, I get under the duna and I am freezing. Like January is freezing. So, September to November is the best weather for golden, right? March to May is pleasant and blooming flowers. Yeah? This is just what I write to myself. December to February is cold, very cold. But it is, it's kind of misty, isn't it? It kind of gets a little bit… Yeah, now it's very misty. But you're sitting there with a big puffer jacket, a North Face puffer jacket. So, and it is March. So, yeah. And then June to August is green, very green. Green, very green. Yeah. Okay. So, Everyone, please go back and check those months of the year and plan and pack accordingly. I cannot stress it enough. I ran around Hanoi desperately trying to find a puffer jacket because I was only going to Sa Pa and Mai Chau and I froze. I was really cold in February, beginning of February. So, I learnt my lesson. So, I try to tell people, wise up. It's really important. And if you're on a bike or an easy rider or whatever, even colder. Oh man, is it cold. If you were to tell people anything else that they need to know, what would that be? Ying Hang : Whatever you plan, you have to know what you want to do. Like if you go by car, you don't need to plan like carry Too many things, but motorbike, you definitely want to have good shoes because when your shoes get wet, you're cold if you're easy rider and you need to have a good rain jacket. When you get wet, everything is not feeling good and cold. Correct. Kerry Newsome : Yeah. Ying Hang : Yeah. Kerry Newsome : I'm terrible at packing, really bad. So, I have suggested to people in the past that they arrange with their hotel in Hanoi when they come back to stay in that same hotel and leave the bulk of their luggage in the hotel and the hotel will look after it. Because you don't really want to be lugging around 23 kg luggage and a backpack and another carry-on and whatever, because you've been shopping or whatever. Ying Hang : Bring just enough for you, if you want more you can always buy. Fair achievement. Kerry Newsome : Ying, I wonder if you could tell us just maybe one story about some travellers that you took around, like a story about their experience and explain what you did and what was the highlight. Ying Hang : the local authentic and basically local and the market. The market, it's very beautiful. I highly recommend. It's Mil Van and Dong Van market. They are the most beautiful and colorful and it's still very traditional. They don't have like too many tourists go in that market. Only the people who stay overnight in the area, they go. Okay. Kerry Newsome : If there was one story that you could tell about something that happened along the way around the Ha Giang Loop, what would that story be? Ying Hang : Beautiful story. It's the market in the Kanya. It's very beautiful. So a lot of people want to go to the boat riding below the Mapilin Mountain. that's beside the China border and Vietnam so wherever you go and you will experience beautiful and basically lots and lots of people go there because they're so pretty the one thing we only have like 40 minutes on the boat so you can take a swim in there And you can have lunch there. And then you come back on the boat, off the boat after you finish. Kerry Newsome : Oh, okay. And what day would you do that on? Day three? We'll be on the day two. On day two. Okay. All right. And the other thing I didn't ask you about was the food. Tell us a little bit about some of the unique food in the area. Ying Hang : Okay, so the local food up in Hazan, it's a little bit more like Chinese. The way they cook, normally we're sharing the food together. We order like pork, one plate pork, chicken, or duck, or veggie. We have lots of greens, so we will order like few different dish and we're sharing with the group. In the night time, we have a steam bowl, like a hot pot. So that is very Chinese and a lot of time everybody like it. Mostly I always have that for dinner because it's a little bit colder in the night time. So we have that for dinner. Then you can go to see the in Dong Van there is a night market. on the Saturday night and on the Friday night, they do a little bit dancing. You can also join them too. Kerry Newsome : That brings up another point then, like should people come on the Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, those days rather than during the week? Ying Hang : Yeah, that's, I also recommend that too. In the week it's a little bit more quiet if you don't want to see too many people, because on Saturday and Sunday it's a lot of Vietnamese travellers, they go to that area. It's going to be busy, but it's beautiful too. Kerry Newsome : As far as the language is concerned, not many people speak English up there, do they? Ying Hang : Yeah, Hazan don't have too many people speak English. It's now start some younger boy, they want to learn and they want to do the Easy Rider, but to be a tour guide, there is no. Kerry Newsome : What would you say about, is it safe for a woman solo traveler to come on their own to this area? It's safe. Ying Hang : Yeah, it is very safe. Okay. But what you plan, you have to be careful with the company, that's all. Kerry Newsome : Yes. Ying Hang : Yeah, because when you book, they don't refund you. Kerry Newsome : They don't refund you. Yeah. You know, like I know some very adventurous women who travel from the US and Europe, because they do lots of trekking in their own countries, etc. So I want to make sure when I say, you know, you can feel safe to come, I would get them to get in touch with you so that you can set them up. Because to me, part of the safety factor is in about who you deal with. So, like I always make sure that I deal with reputable companies that I know and trust, that I've dealt with, and I'm confident then in sending them up that way. Ying Hang : Yeah, definitely. Understandable. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, definitely. Now, I mean, there's lots of talk about the future of Ha Giang tourism. What would you say the future is for Ha Giang? Ying Hang : The future is going to be touristy and very, very remotely. I mean, lots of things are coming up now. Building homestay, On the roadside, it's a little bit not so pretty anymore. Day by day, I'm traveling there every week. So I see change very much. Kerry Newsome : And is that change not so good? Do you think it will spoil it? Ying Hang : Yes. Well, too many buildings and they are not traditional. So it's not pretty. But there is a place you can go just a little bit further. You just have to find it out. Kerry Newsome : I really do want to encourage my listeners to explore, do your research about this area. I'll definitely put Ying's details in the notes, as I said. I just want to say thank you, Ying, for coming on the show and for giving us this information because it's truly valuable. Ying Hang : I am very happy that you invite me to. I really appreciate it. Links – What About Vietnam S3-E5 - https://www.whataboutvietnam.com/series-3/episode-5/the-ha-giang-loop---vietnams-final-frontier Ying’s website: dragonmountainfamily.com , Her WhatsApp number :+84338805995 Note: Please forgive any background sounds and any words misspelt in the Transcript.

What About Vietnam – S5-E27 Discovering Catholic Treasures of Vietnam: Church Hunting in Ninh Binh and Nam Dinh Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. I'm your host, Kerry Newsome. And today we're stepping into the world you may not expect to find in Vietnam, the world of Catholic churches. I know it took me by surprise as well. On a recent journey through the North, I found myself genuinely surprised and deeply moved by the stunning architecture, peaceful presence and rich history of these churches. Some tucked away in the most unlikely places. You might be wondering how did Catholicism end up in Vietnam? Well, it dates back to the 16th century with Portuguese missionaries, but it was during the French colonial era, particularly the 19th and the 20th centuries, that Catholicism really took root. The French left more than just baguettes and grand boulevards. They left cathedrals, monasteries, convents, and a strong Christian presence that still lives on today. And you'll hear that in the stories that we tell. Today, about 7% of Vietnam's population identifies as Catholic, one of the largest Catholic communities in Southeast Asia. And while many associate Catholicism with the South, the North is full of hidden gems, quiet villages, with beautiful stone churches. As we were driving along the road, we could see the steeples, some over a hundred years old, where the faith and local culture intertwine in the most unique ways. I hope you'll join me and my guest as we go in search of churches, exploring their stories, their architecture, and the peaceful energy they bring to the vibrant and spiritual land of Vietnam. This show and my longer guest have had this in the works for a very long time. We've talked about exploring Northern Vietnam and certainly in the region of Ninh Binh and Nam Dinh in our search, would you believe, for churches. So you may have heard a previous episode that I did with her and we did mention it briefly and we did say look next trip we will definitely go in search for churches. null: So today I hope you'll welcome her to the program. Kerry Newsome: over the last 24-48 hours of exploring this area for churches. And I think you're going to really, really be surprised because I know, I hope I've captured my amazing face and expressions when I have seen these magnificent churches. So heart, please say hello. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Hello Kerry, hello everybody. Welcome and I'm so happy to indeed have this opportunity to go church hunting with Kerry Newsome. Kerry Newsome : Okay, alright, so a little bit of background to the trip and the beginning. So we of course started in Hanoi. And from Hanoi, we have engaged with a personal driver. And from my perspective as an international traveler, obviously as a foreigner, I think this was the best way to do it. Now, I have the advantage of her, and I have her for two reasons of enjoyment. One, she is extremely knowledgeable about these churches. And secondly, she has put some research into the churches that we are going to talk about. So she was able to speak to them with great fluency, and you're going to hear that as we go through the show. Plus, she can even use her Vietnamese tongue to be able to say the names and the districts and things like that. And of course, you know much better than me. and then a great company as I got to know her a little bit more and in our exploration with visiting the churches, just how lovely it was to find this part of Vietnam that I don't know, I'm not sure that many of you would think of Vietnam in this vein and think of I think Ham mentioned to me during the day that it's around about 80% of the population of Vietnamese that are actually Catholic and follow the Catholic Church. So it's still a very thriving religion in the country and as we discuss some construction stages and rebuilding and you just get a sense that the churches are very symbolic. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Meaning that I'm not even a Catholic, but me being brought up in Hanoi and have been to the Hanoi church, the Hanoi Cathedral, and seeing the splendor, the beauty of it, I eventually got interested to know more about the church. And I have to admit that I didn't really understand the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism up to I was quite a young adult. So Northern Vietnam, where I come from, is about Catholicism. In the provinces that we visited this time with Carrie, Nam Dinh, and Ninh Binh, are the cradle of Christianity, specifically Catholicism in Vietnam. And the first church that we visited is the Bùi Chù Cathedral. And Bùi Chù Diocese is the longest serving and one can say it is like truly the cradle of Portuguese missionaries who came to Vietnam and started the dioceses there. Bui Chu Cathedral used to be, it had a 150 years history, it used to be quite run down. And the fathers at Bui Chu were worried before COVID about it being the risking to collapse anytime. So despite all the old history and the splendor of it and all the non-stop discussion with architects, they actually had to make the painful decision to take down and build a new one. So when Carrie and I visited this time, We actually see the mostly completed new cathedral built, I think, mostly to the same exact design and decoration as the old one. It's beautiful and it sits in a majestic area. And the people, the workers, the contractors who are working there, were beaming with pride about what they are doing and they are completing. And they told us that the grand opening of the new cathedral, Bùi Chù Cathedral, is going to be sometime next year, 2026. But as soon as August this year, masses and services could be started to be conducted inside the church again. And for visitors who come to Nam Dinh to see the beauties of the cathedrals and churches there. I think if you had to, if you can plan to be on a weekend, it would be wonderful because you wouldn't see the masses, you wouldn't see the churches as a community center with activities, with all the living actions in there, and it is actually seeing it is, in a way, is also as interesting as seeing those churches and cathedrals just as like old wood relics or old building architectures. So that is something that both Carrie and I were very happy to see, including we were able to speak to the people around and hear them expressing their joy and pride of the cathedral that they are contributing to. Kerry Newsome: And you know it was intriguing for me to learn during the journey that Hart was saying that you know we were spotting churches on the road like we were driving along and we would see the the churches and the steeples. The spires. Yeah, the spires. And it was like every couple of miles in some places. And I think, what did you say, you said there's about two churches? Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Yes, so the density and the frequency of you spotting churches in Nam Dinh, especially, is so much that it's almost like two churches per village. To be admittedly, not all villages in Nam Dinh are Christian and Catholic churches, villages, but they have a very dense areas, almost like whole districts, where the Catholic population is so dense and so long-serving that you do have two churches per village. And it's such a big fun because it is literally church hunting because we will see two churches to the left and three churches to our right and it is like oh like to trying to see which one is bigger, which one is more beautiful, which one has a more interesting bell tower, that kind of thing. Kerry Newsome : And as we're going along, I was like, oh look, there's another one, and Carrie, you missed this one. And I was like, you know, my head was on a swivel. Spinning. Just, I was, because I think Once again, going into this trip, obviously I had the headset to look for churches, but they would be easy to dismiss if you were just taking the journey to get from Hanoi to Nam Dinh or to Ninh Binh, because this is the area that we are in. Do not keep your eyes open to this. And what was lovely about this cathedral in particular, the father that was there. Unfortunately my French is very poor, as poor as my Vietnamese. So Hart did a great job to sort of say hello and tell the father about what we were doing. But we made the comments about the construction and some of the decisions to make it all look perfectly new and all the rest building and obviously with that age and sure it is destruction and it can't be sustainable but it shows the history you can see the history and the brickwork and what is left so we were able to wander around the grounds we weren't able to actually go inside because of the construction but it began We went on a little bit further and we went on to explore the Basilica. As you would know of the Basilica, it is recognised by the church as an official part of their, of the religion and recognised by the Pope and all the rest of it. So over to you Hap. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Yes, so we have four basilicas in Vietnam, two in the north, one in central Vietnam, and one is right there in the center of Saigon. So it is actually for you to find out more about the four basilicas, but this time Carrie and I, we were able to visit Phú Nhai Basilica, and it is I think number two or number three largest Catholic churches in Vietnam. And Phu Nhai Basilica is also famous because it appeared in many films and documentaries in Vietnam. And when you are either in Bui Chu Cathedral or Phu Nhai Basilica, you would be easily thinking that you are not in Vietnam. The Gothic architecture, all the details, all the design and decoration, all the bas-relief on the walls surrounding the basilica are European, are so like, even like Greek in some ways. So it is kind of intriguing to to look further and see rice fields and some very non-Vietnamese edifice being there. And the Basilica is wonderful in the sense that it is truly the center of that community and we were able to walk around and children running around and families next door to the basilica, creating beautiful bonsais and, you know, leaving cross using like ornament trees and plants. So all those smaller details add to the living beauty of Basilica in a thriving community. And I'm sure that many visitors could also, we would recommend you also to walk around and many of the houses actually open and people are very welcoming. people to come in and whether you are a Catholic like them or you are not, like in my case, they would be like very, very willing to tell you about the basilicas, the importance of it in their community. Kerry Newsome: Was that the one where we went to the very elaborate houses? Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : We did, we did. It's actually next door. Yes, next door. Kerry Newsome: Because the grounds were immaculate. They were well maintained. The bonsais were beautifully crafted. Hannah tells me that the area is well known to have bonsai masters who do take great care in looking after the bonsais because they are everywhere. And what was crazy and kind of doing my head in a little bit is that you can be forgiven for thinking, am I still in Vietnam? This looks and feels like it could be somewhere in Italy because the craftsmanship is Gothic, is Roman, is Catholic in every sense of the word. So what you are seeing in some of the statues and some of the engravings and some of the architecture. There's nothing that they have adapted to make it look Vietnamese. It's the other way. It's made to look very, very, very Catholic and obviously religious. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : I really hope that since we asked Vietnam Stats to have the representative of the Pope residing in Hanoi since 2022, one day the representative of the Pope would be able to come and visit this magnificent basilica around the country. Kerry Newsome: We moved on from the basilica and we went to another church. and I got to have a really good walk around this one, and I'll leave it to you, Ha, to give a little bit of context to, is it Kien Lao? Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Kien Lao, yeah. Actually, we stayed there a little bit too short time. You flew the, yeah? Yeah. But I think we, since we, you going to do that but you know with the flycam was it good enough to null: imagery I was able to capture using a small drone. Kerry Newsome: I'll be able to show you just how magnificent it is but we kind of got chewed up with time with a little bit of technology issues but Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : So we went to Kien Lao Church, which is beautiful and special in the sense that we were able to go inside and the acoustics as well as the lighting inside the church is just mesmerizing. It's just so captivating. And we are not in a very like sunny day, but the light inside, outside, inside the church makes me feel very special. And that is one thing that makes me wanting to go back to the Catholic churches all the time, because I can see the harmony of the light and the beauty of the the sound of the acoustic inside when we step inside a church. So it is really special when thinking that those churches being built like 100 years ago, and the craftsmanship and the people who built them at that time already must, in the countryside of Vietnam, already mastered. the engineering that makes the light and the acoustics work so wonderfully, almost like in any other Catholic churches elsewhere in Europe. Kerry Newsome: Was this the one where the children were singing and we caught the children? Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Yes, it was. Kerry Newsome: That was such a lucky chance. That was so beautiful. They were so enthusiastic and maybe I made sure that they kind of knew that I was filming them because I thought they would sing to that knowing that I was doing some filming. But it was just lovely. And then we walked around and there was the pulpit stair, that was the one with the staircase up? Yes, yes. That was just incredible. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Stunning, isn't it? For visitors, I think if you can time your time to Kien Lao Church, or like some of those bigger churches, at after 11 in the morning, at around before lunchtime, I think you have a very good probability catching those children learning, children's choir. practicing singing chanting in the church because that is when they came back from their morning school and they would have church class hours quickly. So we were very lucky that in the morning we hear the children singing and the afternoon we hear another wonderful chanting, yes. Kerry Newsome: next church and this one was very, very different. In fact, Halloween has been referred to this church and she'll explain a little bit about that. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : we went to Hung Nghia Church, which is not too far away from Kien Lau Church. And in the past, it was like dark and reddish color, which is very striking among the Vietnamese lush green rice field and everything. But this time when we visited it, it's painted, being painted, yes, dark black, and in another striking way, because some of the decoration details are intentionally, I think, painted red and white, and so, and the contrast is striking, and it is a super big complex of a church, so I thought they are going to use it for filming of some Halloween story, but I asked the people around, the locals, and they said no, no, no. They are serious about keeping it officially in this appearance. So it is like painting dark black with red windows and decoration details in white. So it's kind of, really out of this world and In a few months time in few months time yes And Kerry Newsome: It doesn't have too much of a surrounding area that you would want to spend time with. You just need to add it into the trip to just see the striking difference against the setting of Vietnam rice fields and all of that area. But I do want Hutt to talk a lot about the next stop. have an experience there that we didn't expect. It was at dusk. So we did this on a Friday, which is probably, Hartley's going to say probably the weekend is probably better, but it will be busier. So we got to experience a lot of these without any big crowds. There was no see that kind of experience in these places. So, you know, it is a journey very personal and I think for those of you who do follow the faith, you know, you would go with that mindset. It's not a touristy kind of experience and I don't actually want it to be. I do not want big buses rolling up at these places, but I do want you to know about them, so that if you do want to take this personal journey like I did, and not be fed out of curiosity that in a country where over 90% of the population is Buddhist, to find in our thriving Catholic communities that exist and and are there with these magnificent churches you know you kind of have to see it to believe it but this particular cathedral is the setting just let me try and paint this picture before I leave it was like about 5 p.m and it was just coming into dusk so you can imagine this over to you so you can talk through our total experience including some of the acoustic experience. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : So Kerry and I saved the best for last because in the afternoon we crossed the borders from Nam Dinh province to Ninh Binh province and we visited a hidden treasure the Choson Monastery. It is a functioning monastery. It's a little bit far away. It is actually next to Dao Mountain. And the driver was also a little bit unsure of how to find that place. And certainly there are no busloads of tourists. It is a quiet, tranquil place. It is a gothic monastery just like you are stepping in a Harry Potter world. It is so beautiful and well kept with minimal restoration, I would say. So you really have to see it in order to be stunned by the Gothic architecture against the beauty of Ninh Binh mountains with a magnificent garden with the underground caves and all the immaculately manicured lawns and bonsai. And we were so lucky that the chapel was opened and the monks who lived there, trained there, studied there, came in and did a wonderful afternoon chanting. Again, as you might know, I come to those places because I admire the acoustics. And this time, of course, it didn't disappoint me. The acoustics in this beautiful location and looking a little bit out to see the sunset, the dusk, it's like unbelievable, unbelievably surreal. Choson Monastery, as I mentioned, it's going to be 90 years old next year, and they have been a functioning monastery with practicing monks all the time, and they are very thoughtful to make it available and accessible to the public. gradually, because I have visited that place maybe 15 times. So the first few times when I came there, I actually had to call in advance, ask for permission from the father to come in. And then eventually they open it like one, two days per week. And now it looks to me that they are not like open for massive tourism, but they do open and they do welcome the guests. And it is pretty far away. It is pretty unwell-known yet, but it is truly somewhere you really won't feel that you are you touch the beauty of your spiritual soul and the setting is there for you to really to see the grandiose of nature with thoughtfulness of people. And the rabbits in the garden. And the roosters fighting nicely. Yeah, I mean the gardens are just something else. Kerry Newsome: to the actual church itself. So it's a place where you could spend and you should allow a little bit more time I think. Now Hart was surprised that we were able to be there at about five o'clock and experience of the of the bumps and we don't know yet we're going to do a bit more research around whether that is actually typical because she was kind of told it's normally at two o'clock not at five o'clock and you know i had i kind of put my two bobs in in the sense that i was trying colors of dust in the sky to surround this area and I was right when we were there and I was taking photos and doing a little bit of video. It was just mesmerizing the color mixtures and the feeling I could have spent more time there and I wish we did have more time and that's going to lead into the next thing I want to talk about is timing because we were able to fit those five in that we've just talked about Now, if you pushed yourself, you know, with still having time for lunch and to come back to wherever you're staying, now we're staying at the Emeralda in Tampcock. And I have to say, we were really impressed. It's really only been open here for a couple of years, and the setting of it and where it is, as much imagery and photos because I did go a bit nuts with the photos and video so please watch the social pages and you know you can talk to me anytime reach out and I can give you some more information about these places. But specifically I do want to talk about the timing and the time allowance that you should consider when you're putting your trip together from Hanoi to visit this area. So today we have experience where we're going to see one more and I'm going to ask her to talk about this one because we won't get to come back on the microphones again. from her experience. So today we have one more. That means that in two days, one night, we will have seen six and that is allowing me time to get back to Hanoi and Hanoi airport. Now, personally, now that I've done this, I probably would be recommending you to do two nights and take your time and with your driver and with your guide, you know, allow yourself a little bit more time at these places, building a nice place we would look at for you to spend for lunch, and then come back to enjoy the resort. You know, Hart and I wanted to come back later, we've had a great day, we've had a chance to have a nice swim, sit by the water side, and just take in the ambience of the actual resort. I still think one night is rushing it a little bit, two nights is definitely allowing you to luxuriate and really feel the area. And you could still fill it with more churches because there's plenty of them to see. So how can I ask you to just speak to a little bit about the one we're going to see? Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : So, Carrie, yesterday we have seen very, very European-style church, cathedrals, and basilicas, right? Today we are going to see a church, which I would jokingly call a fusion church. It is going to be the Phat Diep stone cathedral, it is the other quadrant of Catholic system in the Nam Dinh and Ninh Binh area, together with Bui Chu cathedral. Phat Diep cathedral is enormous. It is a stone complex of cathedrals and chapels and praying area. And it is built with the Ningbing limestone, which is famous in this area, on what used to be a swamp. So the engineering work that goes into it is enormous, and it is a combination of Catholic church architecture and Vietnamese traditional communal houses. So it's going to look kind of funky in a way. Very traditional but also very unexpected and like very intriguing in many ways. modernistic as well and like if the nuns there would explain to us why certain things are designed or made a certain way and the story behind all those smaller details are also exciting. So I look forward to go with you in a few minutes to that place and for sure please do add more of your own feeling and impression of Phat Diep Stone Cathedral to our podcast, Kerry. For sure. Kerry Newsome: So the other aspect of the trip that it has brought to me is that you definitely could add more churches into your experience. We have done only a small snapshot Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : We have not even done 1% of these over 600 churches in Nam Dinh province alone, right? We have 99% more churches to see. Kerry Newsome: So you're now getting the gist that this is a snapshot of what is open to you to explore and we could build that in. For the purpose of your planning, I would, as I said, have a look at just how much time you have on your hands to explore this region. The lovely thing about this region from Hanoi is that it is still only in the vicinity of two, three hours in time. So it's not like having to go on those bigger trips where you're going into Yen Bai or you're going to Mu Chai or where it's five, six, seven hours each way, which chew up a lot of time. So this is like some magic very close to Hanoi. I will put in the show notes and list the cathedrals and the basilicas and the churches that we did see. You, as I said, can reach out to me any time and I can access the right information because there is no church tour that you can kind of just buy off the shelf. And I think that's good. I think it should be something that, you know, we craft for you as a person, as an individual, as a person who follows the faith, maybe, or like her, who doesn't follow the faith. However, her curiosity in the churches and Catholicism in Vietnam kind of gave her the insights to want to know more and explore more and I mean you know the one we went to yesterday 15 times she's been there so she still looked in awe of the experience as I did for the first time so I think there's a lot to be had I hope you've enjoyed the show And thank you, for spending the time with me. I so enjoyed it. I knew it would be good and it's lived up to my expectations. Ha ( Hannah ) Dau : Wonderful. So happy to hear that you are enjoying it as much as I did, Kerry. Kerry Newsome: we will get on to the next church, the Modernistic Fusion Church. Let's go! Just wanted to finish off everyone referring to the Phat Diem Stone Cathedral that Hannah refers to just as we were closing off there. We did get to cover it off. It was really hot about kind of 10 o'clock in the morning. So, you know, would recommend you going earlier in the day or in the cooler of the afternoon. A massive area. Look, it is modernistic, very futuristic in the way it's trying to combine the two religions. It didn't kind of capture my soul, I have to admit. However, you know, to see just the expansiveness, the devil of detail. that obviously the architects have gone to to try and combine them as best they can is really quite amazing. It is a big area, so you really need to allow plenty of time to walk around it, to get the gardens and just the full area. They do run masses and you can look up their times to attend those masses. It was truly impressive, but as I said, would it? Did it kind of do it for me? Probably not as much as the others did that we covered off yesterday. And because there's so many more to cover, I probably wouldn't include this one. I'd probably go seeking some others that we didn't get to do on this trip. That's not to say we won't do it in the future. However, I just wanted to cover this off as Hannah said, we were going and she was very excited to see this one again. I hope you've enjoyed the show. We have covered off quite a lot and please reach out if you need any further information. I look forward to bringing you future shows of the What About Vietnam podcast and just want to say thank you for listening. @whataboutvietnam @vietnamtourismboard @vietnamexperiences @cathedrals_of_the_world @culturetrip @theculturetrip @sacredplaces @traveltovietnam @religiousheritagesites @explorevietnam @soulfultravels @unesco @podcastmovement @vietnamnetglobal @Petersteinhauer

S5- E13 - Out and About in Nha Trang The city of 300 days of sunshine a year Kerry Newsome : Xin chào and welcome to the Out and About series of the What About Vietnam podcast. Today I'd like to invite you to join me on my trip to Nha Trang City. It's March 2024 and I haven't been back to this city since about 2011. Came here with a girlfriend Stayed on a beachside resort Had a fabulous fun few days. So I haven't actually been here since then however, I have been talking to various people and of course because I'm in the industry I'm talking to people about their stays here and But in particular, I got to record an episode with Colm Hutchinson, and it was episode, season four, episode five. And he is an Irish expat and been living here for about eight years. And he was just awesome at sharing some really great insights into the city and was, you know, willing to offer up 10 really interesting, good things to do in the city. So that has always been kind of the basic inspiration for me to come back. Prior to that I had done another show talking about diving with Jeremy Stein who really brought paddy diving and paddy diving training to Vietnam and really the birth of that happened in Nha Trang. So you can also hear, if that's an interest of yours, you can also go back to Season 3, Episode 6 and hear about it from there. I'm getting to share with you know, my experiences, but also my experiences alongside my husband. So for a rare occasion in this trip, I'm able to travel with him. So it's really good to get his perspective on things, his views. You know, he obviously hasn't traveled to Vietnam, you know, anywhere near as much as myself. So, it's really fabulous to get his take on it, just his experience of it and us as a couple choosing different things to do over what I would choose to do myself. So I think for if you're a solo traveler, if you're you know a couple thinking of coming, if you love beachside locations, this is the show for you as we're really going to get into Nha Trang as a beachside water play destination. Just before I jump into the full length and breadth of the show, I would like to give my sincere thanks to the Potique Hotel. Now, the Potique Hotel is sponsoring this show and just had a fantastic stay at their location in Natrang. A little bit about the hotel for you, It's what I'd call a boutique, very elegant Indochine style. It's only about three or four years old, so it's brand spanking new, very clean. It's in a fab location, like literally walk out the front door, you've got a block to the beach, you've got views of the beach in most of the rooms. But then you go left or right and you've got easy access to restaurants and, you know, spa centers and everything that you need is right at your doorstep. It's got a great breakfast buffet, which my husband is a buffet breakfast fan. So, you know, he really soaked up that. It's got a fabulous gym which I was able to use over the stay but we chose to stay three nights there and it was just perfect. I would really recommend it to anyone who wants to be in the thick of things, wants a city hotel, wants those real beautiful spacious type rooms Very elegantly done, really great value for money. Potique Hotel , link for you to be able to check it out yourself. And go direct because I know they do some really good specials and deals and they really want to look after their customers and their guests. So Potique Hotel, thank you very much for the stay and thank you for sponsoring this episode. Jumping right into our stay. We had really only planned a three-night stay. The plan was to go to Mui Ne and then go Mui Ne, then Nha Trang. So it's been my plan all along to do three beachside locations. Well actually four if you take in Ho Tram. So we've done Ho Tram, we've done Mui Ne, today is Nha Trang and then following our three nights in Nha Trang we'll be doing Quy Nhon. As a form of comparison, and for my listeners who are looking at beachside locations like, you know, that still include some of the great Vietnamese cultural things to experience, These would be the cities that are a little bit out of the way. I mean, Nha Trang definitely features as a very tourist-based city and has been on the map for many, many years. But places like Mui Ne and like Quy Nhon, Not so, but they're on the potential map. So they are definitely being touted as the cities that are going to really attract the new tourists. Vietnamese are also taking up a greater interest in domestic travel. So you're going to see a lot more domestic Vietnamese travellers in these destinations because they've Guess what? Finally wised up that they have got some fabulous destinations that they can go and enjoy when they get their holidays. Okay, so getting to Nha Trang from Muni, we could have opted for train, we could have opted for a bus. The only other option was car. We are travelling with a lot of luggage and so I opted for the car. Four hours and around about, you can get that for about two to three million in cost to do that trip with a private driver and a seven seat vehicle. So, that was very comfortable, highway all the way, all along the coast road, really “easy peasy”, four hours, not a hassle. So, we got into Nha Trang afternoon and, you know, kind of ready to find somewhere to eat, to kind of get a bit of a feel of the city and, you know, it was time for sunset drinks, let's face it. So, that was easy to find. There were lots and lots of bars and restaurants at our fingertips from that location in the city. I did feel the busyness side of it as a beachside location. And having come from Mui Newhere, you know, it's a lot sleepier, it's a lot more casual, it's a lot more very Vietnamese focused, where this is much more multicultural. So, you've got all your brands, all your different cuisines. You've got, you know, chock-a-block streets and cities full of, you know, a really mixed bag of tourists. So, I didn't kind of get the chill-out vibe when I first got here. I got the busy vibe and I got the noisy vibe. So as much as it is a beachside location, I think the best part of, or the best parts of Nha Trang are just kind of beyond that city centre area. And I think you owe it to yourself to explore beyond that, which is kind of what we did. And, you know, think water, think water sports. So diving, as I mentioned, You can catch the cable car across to Hon Tre Island, which is where the Vinpearl land is. And if you're staying at Vinpearl, that's fabulous, but there is other resorts over there and other beaches. But it's about doing a little bit of homework on the access to those other islands. A lot of expats tend to choose Long Beach as their favorite beach. and it's just a little bit further around the bay and a little bit less touristy. So you've got those options to do. I think if I did something wrong I might have taken it just on face value and I was a bit stuck in 2011 to be honest. I was thinking, gosh, it's just kind of a sleepy town just coming into its vogue. It really wasn't like this when I was here then. But guess what? That's all changed. It's just a really busy tourist city. Some of the things that I did really enjoy was the option to do this island hopping. And one of the things I was keen to try, or I was keen to get my husband to try, was definitely the mud baths. So, we were able to combine the two, as in we were able to do a three island hop, and one of the islands actually features the mud baths. Now, originally, I thought the mud baths were going to be something like the Grecian or the Russian kind of mud bath in some kind of spa treatment kind of centre. Wrong. Bom-bom. No go. This is actually an outdoor park. So, it's featured on one of the islands. They have these kind of tubs, these cement tubs with a spout that then spurts the mud or the mud liquid because it's very watery. To me, it just looks like dirt and water, et cetera. And they fill up the tubs and you can go there and choose to have the tub to yourself. or you can share it with your family or as we had a small group because we were part of a tour the whole tour group kind of sat in the tub and everybody had a bit of a chuckle and have a laugh and you know questioning the whole outlay of the place and it was just it was goddamn hilarious to be honest. So, you know, we got to experience the islands, the beauty of the islands, the water. Look, you are going to see rubbish on the islands and in the water. The plastic is an issue. They're aware of it. They're trying to educate and do what they can to rectify that before it gets beyond redemption, I guess. So that's disappointing because The beach, the water is definitely the big attraction for this city. But let's not forget you can go further afield and experience some of the Cham civilization with the Po Nagar temple and the pagoda out there. So don't think it's just about beach things. You've just got to go a little bit further. Colm Hutchinson on that episode I referenced before, he talked about going out to the salt mines where if you get up very early, and I'm talking very early, like 4 a.m. in the morning, and you get out there in the cooler part of the day, you'll see some of those epic photos that are taken of the Vietnamese working the salt fields. And it's just an incredible scene to have. I wish I'd had time to do that. It's probably a good segue for me to talk about how much time to have here. Originally I thought the three nights would be adequate. I would be able to kind of do the basic things that I wanted to do and be able to talk to you about on the show. But getting here and spending time here, you know, probably my biggest regret is not having more time, as I would have liked to have gone a little bit further afield, because I think the gems are just beyond the city perimeter. And, you know, you can see some amazing pagodas and Buddhas and that Cham civilization and those just really exquisite areas of culture that do exist in those regions. So time-wise, I'd probably allow four to five days to do that. And I think that would just give you ample time to, you know, still soak up the pool, still have time to, you know, check out the rooftop baths, still enjoy a sunset or a sunrise, you know, but do those really super duper great activities. They don't call it the city of 300 days of sunshine for nothing. You are pretty much guaranteed a big chunk of the year whereby you're going to have sunshine. So if you want to build it into your holiday and you are a sun lover and a beach and a water person, this is definitely the place for you. And don't forget you can do that diving as another option. I think if you were to be thinking about a beachside location, you wanted the option, you know, from budget to, you know, five star, and Trang is really, it's geared for that. That's it. That's its job. It really fulfils that if you're prepared to do a little bit more scouting outside You know the hubba hubba. I think you'd even enjoy it more. You've definitely got Cam Ran we passed through Cam Ran as we came down the highway there's absolutely massive beautiful resorts out there and You know, we've talked about on the show the hotel being the destination. If you're wanting, you know, that really great escape and you want to have, you know, a beach hotel, but you want kids club and you want to be able to relax by the pool for hours, and have choice of restaurants and things like that within the hotel space, then Cam Ranh would definitely be your go. In fact, I've got a really good offer on our office page on What About Vietnam. So go there for move and pick. And I was able to kind of see that as I was driving into Nha Trang. Look, I really enjoyed my time here, had a real hoot with the group when we did the island hop and the mud baths. I think we'll be laughing about that for years to come. My husband, his impression certainly was that feeling of quite busy, quite noisy, quite loud. And I think we got that because we just come from Mui Ne it was quite the reverse. But I think Nha Trang is and has always been very open to the European, the Russian tourist. It is however now attracting more of the domestic market. And I think if you came here and you kind of followed Some of the advice I've given you here on the show, I think you'd really enjoy your stay in a train. I hope you'll stick with me as I get out and about with the other cities coming up. All in all, I'll be covering 10 cities in this out and about mini series. So we've still got a way to go but I really look forward to bringing them to you and please reach out to me directly if you have any questions that I haven't covered during the show today. But thank you for sticking with me and I look forward to talking with you again on the next Out and About.

What About Vietnam– S5- E15 Yen Bai Discover luxury in the heart of nature Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Okay, so this is going to be a little bit of a curly one for everyone because I'm going to start to talk about in this episode a place in Vietnam that looks a lot like the hills of SaPa, but it doesn't have all that development going on. Now, if I can take your mind and your imagination to those beautiful cascading mountains, paddy fields, that very, very rural feeling, that totally unspoiled beauty. Let me introduce you to Yen Bai and the general manager of a property called Le Champ, Hylton Lipkin. Hello Hylton Hylton Lipkin : Xin chao, Kerry great to be here and great to see you again Yeah, it's it it's an amazing place to be and I think everything that you just explained I'm like wow I'd like to go there and I actually do live there. So yeah, you you're not far off in your in your description. Kerry Newsome : So I guess I want to preface it because why am I doing this show and you know what is it about Yen Bai that's kind of caught my attention? Well really for some of the reasons I first said, I have actually been to Sapa So I know quite a bit about the location. But this is an area which has kind of been quietly humming away and attracting the pretty well researched, you know, bike riders, local Vietnamese. And those looking for those spectacular views that we talked about, but they're not wanting particularly, you know, the draw cards like Fanispan and, you know, the cable cars and the hubba hubba that kind of goes with all that. So I want to ask Hylton a little bit more about this actual location so we get a feel for the locals that that live here and you know just a little bit about what's so special about Yen Bai and in particular Tu Le. Hylton Lipkin : So do we have two, three hours? Kerry Newsome: Yeah, sometimes we do. Hylton Lipkin : So maybe to be very honest, the way you brought that in and the way you explained it to everybody and the listeners here, it just made me think about when I initially arrived in this area. Like I explained to you earlier, I had absolutely no idea where I was going. Yes, I love the mountains. Yes, it's beautiful and I've lived in Vietnam a long time, but Actually, we landed up in this paradisiac, very open nature, in the mountains type of place. I had no idea what it was about. I came here and I remember my family and all we could say was, are we in Nepal? Are we in Nepal? Where's Everest Base Camp? So it really has that beautiful, natural, undeveloped, like you mentioned, type of feeling. Yes, I'll be 100% honest, we are off the beaten track. We're not in one of these major hub cities with, like you mentioned, all the fancy glimmer and glitz of some of the cities in Vietnam, but that is what attracts people to this place. That is the attraction, should I say, rather. It's a lot about nature. It's a lot about a beautiful place to be and a place to, you know, if we look from a wellness or a well-being perspective, find yourself, detox yourself, enjoy the fresh air, eat fresh food, and get away from the city. So, it didn't take me three hours, but kind of… Oh, we've got a bit to go, so hang in there. Kerry Newsome : We're going to dig a little bit deeper. Hylton Lipkin: Okay, all right. Moving on then. Kerry Newsome : Moving on. All right. So, I've just arrived and I've done a quick scout. We've been talking. The breathtaking views just getting here from Hanoi by road took roughly four and a half, five hours to get here. And that was done very easy-peasy, done with a driver that is actually belonging to this resort. So it picked me up from my hotel and I had a very, very comfortable ride here. Thank you very much for that. Hylton Lipkin: No problem. Kerry Newsome : Now, so that gives you a position of where it is, but maybe, Hylton, you can tell us a little bit about some other close vicinities, so people could possibly wrap up two locations in the one trip, and I'm talking about bringing in Mu Cang Chai. Hylton Lipkin : So maybe I can just explain. Normally when leaving Hanoi and moving in this direction in the north of Vietnam, the destination is generally Sapa. Going out, traveling on the highway, getting to Lao Cai and then going up to Sapa, which is very famous. In the middle, somewhere along the way, you turn left and you come along these beautiful winding mountains, mountain roads, which takes you up to where we are now, which is Tu Le. Tu Le is a very beautiful, simple village town in the mountains. It's actually very, very famous for its rice. They have this green sticky rice that most of the Vietnamese people actually know about and it's quite famous. People buy it and import it around the country. So that is a major attraction to Tu Le, where we are today. There's also Mau Cang Chai, which is just over the mountain, which is very well known in Vietnam for the beautiful terraced grass fields that go on forever from the top of the mountains to the bottom of the mountains throughout the year. You have the different seasons, you have the mirror season where they're full of water, then you have the green season when they're growing, and then you have the yellow season, or golden season as they call it, when they're harvesting it. So those are some of the major natural attractions that we have in this area, besides everything else that we've mentioned, just the beauty and the serenity of the area. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, I actually I had a bit of a joke with Hylton earlier. I said, look, I really want to come here and write my memoir, because it's just got that eerily like, beauty. And I can see that. I'm actually looking forward to tomorrow morning just to see how the morning breaks with the fog and just it coming up over the mountains because it is truly spectacular and you'll see some photos of my view from my hotel room and what my first view was when I stepped into reception. I just took that shot, that first shot because it was just so staggeringly beauty. And remarkably so to me is the untouched aspect of it because let's face it people like there's not many places that aren't fully developed. Everybody's heading in the let's develop all this beauty and let's you know kind of do that. So to find a hotel with such beautiful rooms and aspects to it is remarkable and to find it in such an isolated place. But I want to talk and Hylton's going to be the best person to talk about this. is to talk about the different kinds of rooms available at the hotel, because I'm only staying in one of them. Hylton Lipkin : Before I go on to explain the hotels, what the listeners need to understand is that Kerry is just staring out of the window. We're actually sitting in the main restaurant on the property, but we have this panoramic view of as far as we can see, green valley mountains and trees covered. And as we speak, I'm staring at her, but she's staring out of the window. So a lot of this inspiration comes from actually the natural beauty that's surrounding us. So she's not just saying that to sell the product. It is a beautiful place. And one other thing before I mention the different room types and what we have on properties, you also didn't mention the cultural history within this area. you know we are quite far away from Vietnam and from Hanoi City and throughout Vietnam there's actually a very rich culture of ancestral people who have very strong traditions and the government really doesn't get involved at all they actually respect it and even you know help them in certain circumstances and out here in Thule we have the Hmong people the Thai people and the Kien people and actually you know they don't speak the same language they don't speak Vietnamese they speak another language and they have their own dress and attire and you know it's almost as if when you're walking around in the street you think there's a school here that's wearing a very colored uniform but actually that's just how they dress so it's fantastic to see they're not wearing you know sports shirts I won't give out brands because then we should get money if we give out the Yes, we should. Or you know, or jeans or something like that. So it's actually beautiful to see. So it really just blends into the nature of the place and the simplicity of the area. With regards to our property, Le Champ , we have a hundred rooms. And they are diversified. We have an entry category, which is almost like a #glamping with a thatched roof. We will show that to you. Yes, I've got a picture of it. They're a bit small. I mean, everything's available on our web page. They're a bit small, but they really, everything has a beautiful view of the vista beyond, the green vista and the clouds and things like that. So we have different room categories, #bungalows, we have, that's called the Glenwood or the Glamour. Then we have the room that you are in and we have the president's bungalow or the VIP bungalows So we have a range of different accommodation, but very luxurious and again for this area. There's nothing else we are off the beaten track as I mentioned earlier and when you're driving through the mountains and coming here and you're suddenly and come bang, you know, face-to-face with Le Chum, it's like, where am I? Because up to now it's just been many homestays and very simple villages, and here we have this beautiful property that, you know, boasts a certain level of luxury. I think I'll be safe to say that. Absolutely. So, you know, it's really something special in a very quiet, hidden, like we could say it's a hidden gem, basically. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and like, you know, I guess as a traveler, you know, I go to places and I automatically think it's going to have this and this and this and this. So when I arrived here, my expectations were of, oh, this is, you know, this is a four and a half star property. I knew a little bit about Hylton, so I knew it was going to be luxurious. But then what I didn't expect and what came from it, and he's right, I'm sitting here, I'm kind of blinded by the light to be honest, I'm blinded by these mountains and this beautiful quietness, where the hotel is offering something really quite unique and a bit standalone, like there's no other hotel in this region of this standard. Sure, you're going to find your homestays and you know, that's another map, that's another story, that's another podcast. But for this one, this is about coming in and getting that lovely luxury but without all the glamour glitz and all the rest of it that sometimes comes with properties of this standard. I want to talk maybe Hylton about you know, the kind of people that you attract to the hotel. We started just before coming on talking about, you know, who loves this place? Who comes, who are they? You know, where are they coming from? Talk to us a little bit about that. Hylton Lipkin : We need to be honest that we are predominantly a Vietnamese property. The property's been running for about four and a half years, run by the owners, local owners, so most of the marketing and most of the efforts have been placed on Hanoi. Like you mentioned earlier, we're pretty close to Hanoi, five hour drive, so for many Hanoians to come out and enjoy this, they do, as a weekend getaway, a public holiday getaway. So I would say that 85% of our clientele are from Hanoi, or the north of Vietnam. In that group of people we definitely have families, a lot of families. On the weekends we have lots of young children running around with their parents. We do have different activities here for children, so they tend to enjoy that as well. But it's also a very romantic type of isolated place that you mentioned. So, you know, we get the honeymooners, we get the romantic couples, we get the families. We do get elderly people, but you very rightly mentioned that There is a bit of walking to be done around. We are in the mountains and it is quite steep in certain areas. Myself being a fitness fanatic, I'm very happy with that. But yes, sure, when your knee is sore or you're getting older or you just can't do it, that definitely is a hindrance. But we do have that group of demographics of people. But over and above that now, that we've changed our marketing strategy and we've been looking in different places to market. We're starting to see Western guests, non-Vietnamese guests. Of course, there's the expat community within Vietnam that we also do attract, but it's outside of Vietnam. We have a lot of tour groups coming through. And like I mentioned to you this week, we had French guests and German guests. We had a gentleman from Saudi Arabia, the first in the year and a half that I've been here. So that was great to see him. So 80% Vietnamese or 85% Vietnamese and maybe 10% Western European, American, Canadian guests, and then maybe some Asian other guests that come in through there. So that's pretty much the mix or the demographics of what we have. Kerry Newsome : And I am going to support the, you know, I don't think it would, I'd put it in the class of elderly friendly. I mean, you know, I'm elderly. And, you know, I'm thinking of how many times am I going to do those steps in the next couple of days. So my knees aren't what they used to be. But, you know, I've seen other levels here as well. So I'm sure if you had some issues, and you mentioned that, So, I think great for the family, you know, they've got this amazing infinity pool that they would absolutely go nuts over. If you're an Instagram fanatic, oh man, you're going to get some amazing pics. And I'm pretty sure we talked also, Hylton, about some actual photography groups that come to photograph because there are certain times of year that these paddy fields actually come alive with green and yellow colors that are just, you know, they queue up literally side by side to get the best shot. Hylton Lipkin: But actually, like you mentioned earlier, sunset and sunrise are pretty spectacular. With or without the clouds, it's absolutely beautiful, you know. coming up behind the mountains, going down behind the mountains. Some days we have pink-red skies, other days we have grey-blue skies with the clouds. So it is actually very, very picturesque. Yeah, no doubt about that. Kerry Newsome : And I think it's funny, I've just finished doing a VTV4 show. I think it's called Culture and Connection. And they were asking me to talk about how I feel when I'm in Vietnam or what does Vietnam make me feel. And I said, beautiful. But I've got a good explanation for the word beautiful in the sense that when I am surrounded by beauty, I can't help but feel beautiful. It has that real rub-on effect that nature in its raw and its pure sense, it really does. And then even the air, you know, I've just come from Hanoi and just breathing, I feel like I'm taking extra gulps just every hour just to really get a full sense of it. So, you know, I'm not crazy coming out to Yen Bai and people are looking at it on the show list and saying, oh, Kerry's done a show on Yen Bai. God, what's that? You know, what could that be about? Because you're not going to see it on the classic tourist map. It's not there. And it's the reason I'm here, because it's not there. Hylton Lipkin : It is a new and upcoming destination, but I think I'm very safe to say that it's not going to become as busy as Hanoi. I can definitely say it's not going to become as busy as Hanoi. Thank God for that. That is one of the attractions to the area, the fact of the simplicity, the beauty, and the fact that there is no traffic. My biggest traffic problem are the buffalo on the pass going over the mountain. And the chickens. Yeah, I mean, a bad traffic run for me in the morning is children in the road, buffaloes, goats and sometimes baby pigs. So, I mean… It's a tough life. Different priorities. And, you know, you were mentioning as well, people are looking for healthier destinations, more open destinations, places where they can breathe and, you know, get away and detox and enjoy themselves. Yes, my forte is definitely in well-being and wellness and Even though directly this is not as intense as the last property where we were together in central Vietnam the elements of Relaxation and and fresh air and the hot springs that we have as well and the mountain food and fresh food is definitely there So whether you're a wellness fundi or not, you still automatically get that that infusion of being away being in a natural relaxing healthy environment whether you like it or not. That's a given once you get off the highway. Kerry Newsome: And I think certainly I can understand why the Vietnamese love it and it's a five-hour escape from Hanoi. So, you know, it fits perfectly in that long weekend or short break opportunity for Hanoians to come and enjoy. And, you know, that's kind of where I came from to visit here. I want to jump into food because there was a fascinating conversation I had about a particular specialty to the area. Over to you Hylton to talk about it. Hylton Lipkin : What's famous in terms of food in this area and for me very naturally just jumped out and went black chicken for me. We talk about all the time. She just did it again. Big eyes and a strange face. Actually, it's true. I'd never heard of it before and maybe we become very adapted to the areas and the things that are around us. But here in the mountains they have this black chicken. It's literally black bones, black meat, black skin. And it actually tastes exactly like any other chicken. But it's a speciality of this area. And I was also explaining to Kerry that we have different levels. So you have like the light black chicken, which is not really the black bones. It has normal bones like the chicken we know. Don't tell me there's a brown chicken. No, no, no. But then you get the ones that actually have black bones. There's no preservatives. There's no coloring. It's just a black chicken. Kerry Newsome : Am I going to see one here? Hylton Lipkin : Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going over the mountain, you'll probably see it. So for the locals, it's also an element which I didn't mention to you, Kerry. It's an element of wealth. Because the bigger they are and the more black they are and the further into the mountains you go, they're actually worth more money. So at a hotel level, we kind of get commercial black chicken. But you can go deep into the mountains with the Hmong people and they actually grow their own Black chickens that are a little bit more expensive a bit like, you know, like a more refined beef or something to that effect So that's one one element that apparently a well-fed black chicken on organic food That's what we want is a well. Kerry Newsome : I'm gonna I'm gonna go in search in the next few days for sure Hylton Lipkin : We're going to send her on a trip to find one and then prepare it herself. Kerry Newsome : I've got to get a photo for sure. Hylton Lipkin : The other element as well is the fish. So because we're up in the mountains and we have many fresh water rivers and fountains, they make these trout farms or salmon farms or sturgeon farms. So sturgeon is apparently an endangered species in some countries but definitely up here in the mountains it's in abundance. So not only are the fish healthy because they're living off natural food and natural mountain water with no pollution. But they actually are very popular here and not excessively expensive. So salmon, sturgeon and black chicken and then obviously like I think I mentioned before the rice in Thule is very famous. It's like a sticky rice. They harvest it and then they crush it on the side of the road. Actually guests can do it as an attraction and it becomes almost gooey. And then when they cook it, you have to try some. It's sticky. It's very similar to Thai sticky rice and it's everywhere. Every time you have a meal, you get this two-layer rice. So those are the main attraction towards food. There are many others. There's also bugs. Okay, let's not go into the bugs. Kerry Newsome : That could sway things the other way. Hylton, I want to talk a little bit just to make people feel comfortable and not feel like it's out of their reach. We talked roughly about cost-wise, when people think resorts are a way in. districts like this that's going to cost me the earth to do that. We kind of went on a range somewhere between $80 starting through to about $250 US per night. But what I want to mention more so is that you're a bit of a two-for-one man in the sense that you control two properties So not only by reaching out to the Yen Bai property of Lesham, you can also combine that with the Garriard property in Mukhang Chai. Now I'm going to make sure I put the links in the show notes so that you can do that. I guess what I'm asking you to do is to not think of it just as one place because one from the other is only an hour away. Yeah, an hour by car. So you could get in Mu Cang Chai as well as Tu Le in the same trip is what I'm saying. Hylton Lipkin : Many people who come out this way actually… Combine. Correct. So they would come to Tu Le, stay with us, go over to Mu Cang Chai for the day, visit and then come back and stay here and then ultimately head back to Hanoi or wherever it was. Mu Cang Chai is the big attraction area and it's really close and beautiful to get there. So, yes, I am actually the area general manager of two properties. Le Champ, the one that we've spoken a lot about, is open and been running for about five years now. Over in Mu Cang Chai, we are opening a new property called Garrya. And that will be opening in the next 60 days. Something very exciting under the Banyan Group. And a beautiful high-end luxury hotel. The prices are a little bit higher than over here. Or in Lechon. But very, very beautiful. So the idea is that people could then ultimately come to Thule, stay one night in Thule, move over to Mu Cang Chai stay one night in Mu Cang Chai Discover both areas and then head on back instead of staying in the shop for two nights and doing one day in Mu Cang Chai So we kind of combine them together. Kerry Newsome: Hylton, if you were to do that kind of combination, could you kind of wrap it up with the car to take you to one place and then kind of get you back to Hanoi? Because that's really, I don't want that to be a barrier for people to get here. Hylton Lipkin: Correct. So we do have our bus for each property and we link them together. So as you did today, we can pick you up at the airport or we can pick you up in Hanoi itself. and then bring you out either to Tu Le or take you over to Garrya and Mu Cang Chai or vice versa between the two of them. So yes, there is transport between the two of them. Yes, we're in an area where there's not Ubers or Go or… No, there's nobody here, there's no Grab. I get it. There are local buses that continuously travel between all the cities here. But as it develops and as the new property comes online, we will definitely have more transport options for our guests. Because one thing as well is that here in Tu Le, we have natural hot springs. But in Mu Cang Chai and Garrya, we don't have that. So we could still offer that to our guests from Garrya in Mu Cang Chai. They could come over and use the hot springs for the day and then go back. Like you said, it's only one hour or one and a half hours by car. If you wanted, you could run it. It's only 40 kilometers. Yeah, I'll get my husband on that for sure. 20 up and 20 down. He'll be into that. Or you could cycle it. I've seen a couple of people actually mountain biking over the pass. So there are some adventurous people around here. So those are other options as well. Kerry Newsome : Thanks so much for coming on the show. I couldn't have done this area justice without you. Hylton Lipkin : It's my pleasure and you know it's always great to see you and thank you for everything you're doing for promoting Vietnam and you know especially for us here in Yen Bai or Tu Le and Mu Cang Chai. It's great for people to discover us and get to come out and enjoy this beautiful area, this beautiful region which is not really that popular but well worth the visit. Kerry Newsome : Absolutely, I concur.

What About Vietnam – S5- E2 Choosing Hoi An as a Digital Nomad Destination 00:00 Kerry Newsome Hello Flo, welcome to What About Vietnam. I've been wanting to do a show about the subject of digital nomading for quite some time. I'm delighted to have you on the show and I'm really interested in delving into this subject because obviously since COVID, even pre-COVID, there's been a lot of talk about digital nomading. And now with the remote working situation that was kind of born and fostered since COVID, people being able to travel again and looking for different ways to work away. I'm really keen to talk about what brought you to Vietnam 00:52 Florian Rucker Hi Kerry, Yeah, it's a fascinating subject. I love talking about it. I came to Vietnam and Hoi An as a digital nomad. I was in Chiang Mai before. Chiang Mai has a burning season where really you want to leave the north of Thailand during that time. And Vietnam always had the sense of adventure to me, like a little bit like Thailand, but much more adventurous and kind of like a little bit more, maybe like a little bit more rough around the edges, but very promising. And that's kind of like what lured me to Vietnam. There's a deep sense of freedom here, which also you don't have in that many Asian countries. So it's a very strong sense of live and that live. And yeah, so much about Vietnam. Then Hoi An in particular, it's funny. So it took me a long time to figure out, do I want to be in Da Nang or do I want to be in Hoi An? And I want to be, I was a little bit unsure about it. I was like, what's the right place? Clearly Da Nang is more of a city. It has a slightly larger community. And so I tried that first. And then it turned out that I was actually quite lonely in Da Nang, which is actually a typical city effect, big city effect. In theory, there's more people, but it's easy to get lost a little bit. So then I was like, oh, Hoi An supposedly has this great, like tight knit, smaller, but like closer, a nomad community. So I was like, let's try this out for a few days. I did that, luckily it's just 30 minutes away, but it sometimes feels much further away because Hoi An is really, you know, they're so deeply embedded into nature and like much smaller, much, much cuter kind of. But yeah, so I did that 30 minute trip and I was like, let's try this for three or four days. And then I just stayed. I just went back to Da Nang to pack my bags. And yeah, so Hoi An won my heart over very easily. And for me, again, it's mostly about the community. Now it helps to have the rice fields, to have the ocean, I have the mountains not far away. The old town, actually I leave a little bit for visitors. I go there like once in a blue moon, but that's a little bit more of a tourist thing. It's beautiful, but of course, if you live here, you're gonna be a little bit more focused on the nature. 03:01 Kerry Newsome I couldn't agree with you more. Da Nang is an interesting city and I'm glad you brought it up in comparison to Hoi An. And I want to delve into a little bit more about why Da Nang and why Hoi An. But in particular, Da Nang, I find is very spread out. It's very hard to find a center to Da Nang, in my opinion. And it is, as you say, quite challenging for international tourists or international travelers in Da Nang, unless you know somebody or you go there in particular to do some work or maybe you work in hospitality or something like that. Other than that, I can totally relate to your kind of feeling a little bit estranged and a little bit lonely in that city. I can easily do the same. So I tend to only have a couple of days there because I know people there. But once I've seen them, half an hour down the road is my next community, which is Hoi An. And you're right, it is very community-based, Hoi An, and it's easier to get around. So you haven't got that big city expansiveness. There's definitely centers. You've got the old town and then you've got the beach. And they're both kind of different kind of vibes, I guess, is a way to describe it. But I think you did well and I think it was a smart move to choose Hoi An because I think from a community aspect, that's very, very easy to sell and very easy to become a part of. And they're pretty welcoming in Hoi An, no matter who you are or what you do, they seem to just open their arms to you. So good choices there. But I have a question. Out of all the cities in Vietnam for digital nomading and workation as we're going to talk about, why did Da Nang and secondary to that Hoi An, why not Hanoi, why not Ho Chi Minh, why not, I don't know, some other major city per se? 05:22 Florian Rucker Yeah, yeah, sure, absolutely. So the big cities have their own advantages, of course. So if you're into being in a big city, if you want to have just more options, let's say maybe you do like a specific kind of dance, like advanced salsa or you might want to have like a big drop shipping community, which happens to be one of the professions that nomads like, you might want to go to Saigon or Hanoi. Also, of course, there's going to be, just in general, a little bit more happening. In Hoi An, we'll have a good party maybe two or three times a month. And obviously in the big cities, every weekend, Friday to Sunday. Hoi An to me has, so first of all, it's in general the small town effect of, yeah, you drive everywhere in 10 minutes, you drive to the beach in 10 minutes, you drive to the old town in 10 minutes, often less actually, everybody is nearby. And then people get to know each other in different ways. When you go to a party here, after being here for a while, you'll know the people. It's a very sweet, small community. And I also kind of enjoy the mix of, you have your expats who will send their kids to an international school here. They've been here for years, sometimes decades. You have your tourists who might've arrived yesterday and they might be leaving tomorrow. And you have your digital nomads, kind of my people. I guess I'm slowly turning into an expat here, but in spirit, I consider myself still a nomad. Who might be sticking around for a couple of months, sometimes a couple of weeks. And I really enjoy the dynamism of that kind of that mix. It's like a very fun kind of salad bowl of people hanging out together. And yeah, at the end of the day, it's just a really close knit community. There's a lot of events in the small community and they're harder to find. For me, a lot harder to find in the big city. In the big city, you have to do a lot more work on your own. And I include Da Nang in that. And in that regard, I don't consider Hoi An secondary to Da Nang. If you like the big city, then Da Nang is for you. If you like a community where the events are almost like served to you and almost like curated for you. 07:48 Kerry Newsome And it's definitely a more chilled vibe. I mean, we're gonna talk a little bit more about what you've done with Hub Hoi An, which is awesome. But I just think that if you are the kind of digital nomad that wants that real hyper kind of stay and communication and connectivity with people, yes, you're right. You know, Ho Chi Minh or Hanoi. And there are some very established communities that operate and do this kind of thing very well and have done so for many years. You're right. It's a totally different connection for a digital nomad. So I guess it's up to the individual about, you know, the kind of community they want to work in, to become a part of if that's where they're heading. What does a digital nomad need to have or do or whatever 08:49 Florian Rucker to just make it happen? What makes it possible? I mean, I guess the obvious one would be internet connectivity that's just been on the up and up. And in Southeast Asia, it's actually surprisingly good. I don't know what it's like where you're from. Like the countries I've lived in Europe, for example. Yeah, not that great, right? For you as well. And I've been surprised about how good the coverage is here. 4G, LTE, internet everywhere. You might be on a hike somewhere in the jungle and you get like a video call from your mom at home. This is true. And you'd be like, what, what? Yeah, because you're still connected. That's one of the things that like positively surprises people, but it has a laptop now rather than a desktop. So that's kind of like the very foundation of it. And then step by step, we're seeing a cultural shift towards this being possible, right? Well, this used to be a gradual shift, right? Like every year it's become a little bit more normal. You know, initially it was a little bit more the freelancers and then maybe increasingly companies would also allow employees to do this. It's become also much more of a, you know, we want to keep amazing talent. So we're going to help them have the best life that they can have, right? And so we're going to support this. More and more companies are now paying for their employees, coworking space memberships. We had this gradual increase. And then of course, since COVID, we've seen this massive shift towards work at home. And with that, this massive shift, also an attitude of employers, right? So this is now something that's just, everybody practiced this for two years. And so this now makes it possible for a lot more people to do this. And we're also seeing a lot more people come into the space that are new to this, right? That might be on their first trip. Whereas before we had always a lot of people who've been doing this for years and just a couple of new people. Right now, a lot more like new faces. 10:39 Kerry Newsome Which of course we love and it's also become more diverse. Intrigued, and I think everyone listening would be also intrigued. Is this just for young people or is this, is there a certain type of person? Like you'd have to be fairly used to being mobile. You couldn't be a kind of a sedentary person. So you've got to be able to pack up everything and put it in a backpack or a bag and move on to the next location with, as you say, your laptop, your bits and pieces, I guess, to make it happen. Is there a kind of a certain kind of person that succeeds or does very well in this form of remote work? 11:24 Florian Rucker Honestly, I don't think we're seeing a lot of limits here. It's definitely not limited by age. It's also at the co-working space. Sure, like are there more people who are maybe in there, like late 20s, 30s? Yes, but we're seeing customers of all ages come by and we love that too. We're really all about diversity and that goes along all kinds of axes, right? In terms of what you need to bring, I mean, you need a passport and you need a… Some people literally just work on their phone. If you have a laptop, it'll probably be a little bit more productive, but that's all you need to bring. Now, most people are used to traveling and packing up their backpack or their suitcase. It might be a skill that you get better at. After a while you realize, oh, okay, maybe I also should have a travel scale or like one of those laundry packs that allow you to compress your stuff, but you're just fine without that. The kind of person that succeeds, honestly, I don't think it's that much of a challenge. You should be aware that no wedding doesn't have only advantages, right? It's obviously exciting. It's obviously an amazing way to… It's a very attractive option, but it has challenges and you shouldn't go in all starry eyes and not assuming that. So read up on it. And very specifically, I would mention, if you're traveling by yourself, your friends and your family stay at home, right? So you need to… And that's why we already talked about community. So you should be… Unless you love being alone and by yourself and some people, that's them, you'll want to have a plan for how you meet people. You'll want to make that a priority in your scheduling and it comes more natural and more easily to people. Some people just walk into a bar and they walk out with five friends. Others need to be scheduling ahead for events that might be happening or go to a space that makes those events for them, right? And that's definitely part of my mission at the hub. We have many weekly events and we do a lot. This is honestly almost as important to us as making people productive. It's like helping them be social. So I would that consider the first challenge. The other one is, if your colleague or your boss isn't sitting next to you, you need to be a little bit more on top of your time management and your self-management. Now that's a skill that you can learn. I wouldn't say I'm like a role model for that and I've gotten a lot better at it. So for example, I learned like I can't really work in a hotel room. That's one of those things that just make it very hard for me to actually get into work mode. So I need to go to another place where I can focus and where my subconscious understands. 14:10 Kerry Newsome That's a really good point to bring up because I think there is two different types of people. I mean, I can work from a hotel room and certainly in Vietnam when it's hot during the middle of the day, it's probably my best option to sit in the hotel room to jump on my computer, stay in the air conditioning and then go out when it's cooler. And I kind of wised up to the Vietnamese that they would kind of do things early, early morning or afternoon, because in the middle of the day, it's just too damn hot. But I know also after that, I likewise have to get out and I have to make a point of going somewhere for some kind of community aspect or connectivity, especially because I tend to use up all of my 30 days visa as I can at this point. So this is probably a good segue for us to talk about visas and how in the digital nomading space, how people manage it, because I know I've seen with the hub, even prior to yourself taking it over, people coming in and coming out, coming in and coming out because the visa restrictions became quite prohibitive. And we're still on a tourist visa of 30 days, but there is talks of a 90 day visa coming back, which will be joy, oh joy, I think for certainly your business and for people like me who maybe want to stay five weeks or six weeks. And for long haul people, I think the aspect, if you're coming from Europe or you're coming from the States, it is a long trip. You do want to have a really good experience of Vietnam. And something I really try to do in this podcast is emphasize to people that Vietnam is just so diverse to try and fit it all in, in a very short time, is crazy stuff. And you may not even enjoy it if you have to do that. So giving yourself more time, time becomes a real luxury in this space because Vietnam, it's just so wonderful in the sense that you can just have so many different experiences. And if you can do that while you can fit in work, well, wahoo to that. That is just to me a swimming idea. Let's just talk a little bit about how you or some of the people in your community, how they're getting around the visa situation. 16:56 Florian Rucker what are their aspirations or hopes in this space? So if you don't mind, let me just say something about the traveling and working. That can be a little bit more challenging if you're a nomad, right? So if you're here mostly for sightseeing and just seeing the country in your free time, go for it. You're absolutely right. Vietnam is full of natural wonders and beauty and ethnic diversity even. If you're a nomad, I mean, be aware of the time cost of travel, be aware of even the energy drain of sitting in a bus, sitting in a plane, sitting in a cab and how much resources will you still have available for getting your work done? And then whether you're okay to get work done just maybe in some local cafe, with the very low plastic chairs that the Vietnamese love. I've done that and that's possible, right? And it's actually a fun challenge, but it is a bit of a challenge. So most nomads tend to, especially if they do full-time, they tend to cherish more spending a little bit more time in one place, finding the right spot for getting work done. But then, you know, the advantage of that is you get to know people a little bit more. You might have your favorite like local coffee shop or banh mi shop and you get to know the people a little bit. You get to know, oh, what's going on in their life right now, which is a very cool insight that you might not get in the same way if you're just kind of like rushing through. Right? Okay, so what you actually asked me about the visa situation and how people are dealing with it, right? Yes, we're on a one month visa right now. What my members are doing is border runs, right? And honestly, I love the OGs and the nomad community are used to that. 18:42 Kerry Newsome OGs, I just want to get acronyms right, you know. I'm so out of it with it. Yeah. What is OG actually? 18:54 Florian Rucker It's long term nomads. It's kind of like those guys who have been around the block. You know? I'm probably one of those guys, but in a different way. So, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of things about Vietnam that I think you know that I don't because I'm working a lot, right? I work a lot and also happen to be in Vietnam. And you're an expert in enjoying Vietnam, I think. I certainly hope so. All of its different ways. The people who've been nomading for years and who know different countries, they know sometimes you're in a place where you have to do board runs. And that means once a month, once a month, I mean, flights from Da Nang are so cheap, right? You fly to Bangkok, you fly to Singapore. I mean, even like to more interesting places like Taiwan, Japan, it's not that expensive. So you do that for a weekend, then you come back and you continue, right? And if you want to stay in one place for many months, it actually becomes quite attractive to spend a weekend, say in Chiang Mai or in Bangkok. So that's the one option of doing a borrder run. The other one is taking a bus. That does mean spending the better part of a day in a bus, right? Five hours to the border to Laos, five hours back, that sort of deal. Those tend to be organized trips, so you don't really have to worry about much. It's just a day that you invest and then that's it. I think both of those are not that bad. Of course, we would prefer to just have a 90 day visa. But even with a 90 day visa, people do board runs, right? It's just a little bit more efficient. You do one board run and you get three months for it. But with a 90 day visa in the past, we had people who would do this repeatedly. 20:36 Kerry Newsome and then stay maybe half a year or something like that. Talk to us a little bit, if you will, Flo, just about financial planning for this kind of, I keep referring it to workation, but do you have to have lots of savings set up and to do it efficiently or to do it in a way? Or can you, in your experience. Can you kind of do it on a shoestring kind of thing? 21:01 Florian Rucker Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, so workation is also a good word for it, right? I feel like there's a fluid transition from workation to nomading. If you wanna try this, you could do a workation for two weeks and try this out, see if that shoe fits you. And then if you decide to stay or do it again. 21:23 Kerry Newsome at some point you become a digital nomad. Do you have to have resources and funds set up to kind of support you through this while you're figuring it all out? Or can you pretty much do it fairly cheaply? 21:38 Florian Rucker Got it. Yeah, so for the financial planning part of nomading, I would say it's almost the other way around. People tend to save money while they're nomading. The most popular nomad destinations are quite affordable. Now, there are exceptions. Portugal used to be affordable, and then so many nomads came there that now it's actually known to be not that cheap anymore. I mean, maybe if you're coming from like, really expensive cities like London or New York, you'll still be saving money in Lisbon. But other than that, it's become not affordable anymore. But Vietnam, Thailand, many other places, Georgia, are all Bulgaria, sorry, are all very affordable countries. And so planning always helps. So for example, if you really want to leverage those cost benefits, you probably want to sublet your flat at home, right? And you probably want to make sure all of your financial obligations back at home are- Managed. Managed or paused or cancelled. And then you really just enjoy having the low cost of life abroad. That's what I would say. And then you can, yes, you can really do it on a shoestring. So for example, Vietnamese in Hoi An will rent a room for maybe like $100. And that includes AC, right? Now that's not Western standards, but- $100 a week or a month? It's fine, right? A month. Now that's what a Vietnamese would usually take. And I'm saying most, like, most of your listeners would prefer a room that, sorry, it's at 250, but maybe more like three, 350. But because you were asking, is it really possible on a shoestring? My answer is yes, yes, it really is. And then it scales up, right? So if you're willing to pay $1,000 a month for accommodation, because maybe you said that from home, you're gonna get a villa, possibly like very close to the beach or by the beach. So it's just a lot more bang for your buck. Yeah. And then if we take this another level, this might be a bit of a tangent, but people who really do long-term digital nomading, they might deregister from home, so they're not in their local tax system anymore. And they might be able to save a lot on taxes. So it's a common thing. People who stay in one place less than six months, in all of the places essentially where they are less than six months, will not trigger tax obligations anywhere. And then a common setup would be to have a US LLC to provide your invoices. And that's essentially a tax-free setup. So you can optimize this to a pretty far extent. Yeah. One thing that, the final thing I would add is, you do want to think about your health insurance. There are, travel insurances are great for travelers, but travel insurances are not the same as a real long-term health insurance. The main difference being that a long-term health insurance cannot kick you out if something serious happens. A travel insurance will be great for, you know, a small accident or whatever. And that's maybe a financial thing that people might not be thinking about immediately, but that maybe they should. 24:56 Kerry Newsome That's really great information. And in particular, I'm glad you talked about the travel insurance versus the health insurance. People tend to consider that a little bit too late in the story. I'm going to talk about Hoi An now and what you're doing with the hub, because I got a chance to come out and have a look. And I was describing it and hope I'm gonna do this justice by your standards anyway. But it was amazing just to see the way you have built it so that the people are working in these glass rooms, fully air conditioned glass rooms, which are kind of almost sitting in a rice paddy field. So they're surrounded by all this nature. And I think on the day I was there, there was a buffalo was kind of musing around the glass. And like no one in there seemed to be perturbed by that. They kind of looked around and then they kept working on their laptops. And then I just thought how crazy great that was and just why it would be just a real change of environment for people. And I think after COVID in particular, we got a bit starved for environmental changes and new places again, and our hearts kind of sunk a little bit in that time. So I do see, they're calling it now revenge travel where people are wanting to get back out there and go hard. And I think with the remote work opportunities opening up, you're really in the right place and the right business. So talk to us a little bit about the hub and tell us what you're doing there? 26:46 Florian Rucker . Right, yeah, thanks for that lovely description of the hub. Yeah, the hub has been around since 2017 actually. And before we were in a small location that was also kind of close to the rice fields, but I always felt like it didn't really make use of that. So people were kind of like sitting in the bag and we already had one of the small glass houses there, all glass and then it looked into the garden, which was also lovely. When I was thinking of growing the hub a little bit bigger, I started looking for properties that are all in on the rice fields. And I got very lucky to find one that's actually right next to the old location almost and has rice fields on two sides. And I was like, let's double down on this glass house thing so people can really enjoy nature. It's something that the locals sometimes don't appreciate as much, I noticed. For them, the rice field is, it's probably like an economic area, right? Like that's where like rice is produced. And then we're like, wow, like this intense green and like the wind moving over the grains, right? Like you see it and then all the nature of the birds that like love this area. Yeah, so I was like, let's go all in on this and go all glass wall. That's essentially the hub. It's all about that view and then the community, right? So we have the silent area, the main glass house, the silent area for focus work and kind of library rules. The smaller one is a cause of loud room. So we're trying to manage those zones that everybody kind of gets their productivity right. And then we do the events. So right now, as we're talking, actually my staff is doing ice bathing with the members. They go crazy over ice bathing. Somebody suggested this once. I was like, okay, I wanna make this happen for you. I know ice bathing is a thing. 28:35 Kerry Newsome And it's popular. Talk to us about ice bathing. 28:38 Florian Rucker This could be interesting. Sure, yeah. So this has become, this has really become a trend and you hear more and more people talking about it now. Essentially it's a bathtub. We have a movable plastic bathtub. It's a bathtub with a bunch of ice. We buy these days four relatively big bags of ice. I think those are maybe 50 liter bags. And people go in there. It drops down to three, four degrees Celsius and people go in for a couple of minutes. And it's an intense experience. It's not necessarily immediately pleasant for everyone. Well, it's funny because it's intense but it's also peaceful at the same time. So you go in and it hurts a little bit. It's a little bit uncomfortable, right? But after about 90 seconds, two minutes, like this relaxation starts to kick in. And like, I don't know, everything kind of like, just like tunes out and then you come out of it and you feel just in bliss. 29:42 Kerry Newsome . And I guess if you're going from a very hot day and then you're jumping in that or not jumping in it, but sitting in it very quickly and getting out when you can't stand it any longer, just those different in temperatures is a good thing for the body to work hard at repairing itself from one extreme to the other. And when you've got 90% humidity in Hoi An sometimes, around about now it would be getting very hot. I would think over there. So good idea with the cool baths making that happen. That was a smart move. And I guess refreshing for the mind as well, for people to then go back into whatever they're working on. They've just had a little bit of a refresh and regroup to go back and work. 30:33 Florian Rucker I think that's a fab idea. Yeah, and that's what we focus on a lot. Most of our activities are kind of like, what also makes sense with getting work done, right? So we might be doing a short meditation, a daily meditation. We might be doing, people go bouldering together. So sometimes we also all go party together, but that's not that common. So it's, people need to get work done. They need to be fit the next day. So we're trying to find a good mix. Yesterday we did board games. 31:03 Kerry Newsome So Flo tell me like, what would be the average spend of time would a person have at the hub? Like would they come for just a couple of hours? Do they come for, like, do they try and work around a normal day? Or do they, like, is it open in the evening? Like, just some gauge on the hours and how you operate from a open perspective. 31:30 Florian Rucker Sure, yeah. So for people who've never been there, we have kind of normal opening hours, Monday to Saturday, nine to 5.30. But once you've come for the first time and maybe paid for either just a day pass or a longer membership, week pass, month pass, you can say 24-7 essentially. So because we have members from, we're really one of the most international co-working spaces in Vietnam, maybe the most international. In terms of kind of duration, that's common for our members. The smallest passes is day pass. We decide to not do hourly. And yeah, some of these people will just like walk in. They might be there mostly as tourists, but they're like, okay, I gotta get some work done and they'll come for a day or two. Pretty common is also a month or maybe three weeks. Three weeks has become very common because people will get a one-month visa and they might wanna spend a couple of days here and there and then their main chunk is at the hub. And then when people do border runs, you know, they might be staying for several months. 32:33 Kerry Newsome . Would you offer some tips for people who are planning on doing this or maybe they're talking to their companies about this option? Is there any advice or tips you'd like to share? Because I'm sure there's gonna be some people who are inspired to come and work in Vietnam and maybe work in your Hub. 32:58 Florian Rucker So I mean, my main advice is just do it. It might seem like this big crazy thing to be working from Vietnam or another exotic country. It's really not. You know, we have all the facilities that you'll need. There's areas where you can have calls. There's good internet. Time zone differences to most places aren't that bad. US time zones are something else. You need to be aware that you can actually work very late, but yeah, just do it. In terms of talking to your employer, it might help if you start out with a short duration. Maybe start out with a one week or two week stint and demonstrate to them that you are productive abroad. Prove to them that you are, that you can do it. And people do that. It's very feasible. I think that's the main message. 33:46 Kerry Newsome And Flo, just to finish up, is it kind of an acceptable practice in Vietnam? Like how does the Vietnam government feel about it? How do the locals feel about it? 33:59 Florian Rucker I think this is a good thing. Yeah, so from the kind of the law perspective is you're just here as a tourist. As long as you don't work for a Vietnamese company, you are here as a tourist. You will just get a tourist visa and that makes it very easy and very simple, right? You're getting a foreign salary and you're spending that in Vietnam. So that's great. You know, that's what people want. I think I'm pretty sure the locals, it's still a little bit new for them. And we're not a huge group in proportion to, for example, the tourists. So a lot of them won't yet totally get it. But those that do appreciate us, which I think is really cool, they see we're actually not tourists. We're not backpackers. We might be a little bit, maybe sometimes a little bit more stick-headed, sometimes a couple of years older. And we tend to also be a little bit more interested in actually what are people like here? And people appreciate that. 35:00 Kerry Newsome Yeah, so the reputation is really quite decent. I was just thinking as you were saying that, that, you know, the domestic tourists in Vietnam, so this is the Vietnamese who have English very much as their second language and are very much attuned to working remotely. I wondered whether or not you would start to attract some of those individuals to the hub, because, you know, if they're working in Saigon and they can still do the same work from Hoi An at the hub and still get their work done, they're in the same time zone, blah, blah, blah, why wouldn't they, you know, tune in and be able to hook up at the hub with all the wifi and all the facilities that you offer? 35:52 Florian Rucker So that may be something that you may grow into. We are seeing that more and more. The number is still rather small. Vietnam is still a slightly more traditional country and it tends to be a little bit harder for employers here to be like, oh, you're not gonna sit in my office. So it's still a bit new, but Vietnam is also a very dynamic country. So there are more and more freelancers and people from Saigon and Hanoi love Hoi An as well. So it's not only foreigners, it's also there's a lot of internal tourism coming from the big cities. And they're more and more realizing, oh, there's a co-working space here, I can also get work done here. So we're starting from a small number, but every year we're getting a couple more Vietnamese. And those, just like our other customers, they tend to be the cool ones, you know, the people you wanna have a conversation with who have interesting stories to tell. Yeah, I'm sorry you didn't ask about this, but I'm amazed about my customers. Just like the last two days, I had conversations with people that like blew my mind and that totally inspired me. And that's one of the things I love about this. 36:59 Kerry Newsome Yeah, I would think it would be amazing. I mean, just to have so many different people in different work life situations and different countries, sharing, you know, their knowledge. I mean, I know even just the time I spent with you and, you know, meeting the people, it was like, oh wow, what a connection to have and what a community to have access to is just fabulous. It was very inspiring. I mean, what countries are you seeing come through? 37:29 Florian Rucker in the biggest numbers? Very, very mixed, very mixed. All of those, all of the above. All of the above and what I love is that we're seeing more and more also from countries that haven't been as represented before. So we've always had a lot of Europeans, we've always had a lot of Americans. Now we're also increasingly seeing a couple of Japanese, Koreans, more and more Indians, which is really cool. And it's also very, very cool to kind of, similar to lead to our other customers, those tend to be the ones that have like slightly cooler jobs, you know, they might be like a senior product manager or something like that. And it is so good to get across all these stereotypes and just kind of be like, oh yeah, we're all nomading here, right? We're all kind of like young or not so young professionals. And yeah, so really from everywhere recently, we've had more and more South Americans, a lot of people from Argentina. Yeah, so interesting, right? Apparently it's partially an economic thing, right? So people from Argentina are looking for jobs abroad because of their currency issues and economic woes. And so when they're like, oh, I'm working for a company abroad now, I'm already remote. I might as well, you know, check out this other country. And we're also seeing more Israelis. And there again, we're kind of seeing a push factor of kind of the local political issues that they have. In a way at the hub, we're also often very much on the cutting edge of like figuring out what's happening in other countries. And so for example, what I learned recently is that Israel, this is not just a political thing, right? Politics sounds so abstract, right? But there's a deep societal crisis in Israel right now. And similarly, you know, like it might sound so abstract to talk about like currency devaluation, but yeah, right. Like people are being pushed out of Argentina and out of their economy because of these issues. But also we learn about tech, we learn about, you know, people always use, everybody uses ChatGPT in our space, right? People use these new things and there's so much like exchange going on that it's all very cutting edge. 39:40 Kerry Newsome And yeah, and very exciting. And I think, you know, for me it's life choice and it's for people who are not satisfied or want something different or want something, you know, as you say, it's not always gonna be better, but it will be different. It'll be life-changing. You will get to meet a lot of people that, you know, wouldn't come your way any other way. So I think it has lots of options for people. So to everyone listening, I hope you found some factual as well as kind of experiential knowledge of what it's like to be a digital nomad in Hoi An. And I'm really thankful for you coming on flow to give us that insight and just great to chat. 40:26 Florian Rucker . My pleasure. Thank you, Kerry.

What About Vietnam S5-E16 - Smart phone Apps and tech tips for travellers to Vietnam Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Today we're going to be getting you smartphone ready for Vietnam. We're going to be talking about some ways to use some apps to make your trip more enjoyable, maybe a little bit more hassle free, if that's a better term. We're also going to be giving you some tips on the most common ones used in Vietnam. And I'm going to be doing that with a very regular traveler. to Vietnam who operates a remote business called Intentional Travelers. And she has a lot to help us with just ways that we can get a little bit more smartphone savvy in Vietnam. And I know because I work remotely, it's really handy to get on top of these things and get prepared for Vietnam and a few of its nuances. So, let's introduce Michelle Chang to the program. Hello, Michelle. Michelle Chang: Thanks, Kerry. It's a pleasure to be here. Kerry Newsome: Now, Michelle, I'm really keen to talk to you today about this subject as I think, you know, I think travelers do need some level of digital and phone literacy in today's travel environment. So I'm really keen to kind of explore some of the things probably both of us have used. But, you know, I know my travelers need to have this under their belt to make their trip just that much more enjoyable. So maybe tell us, Michelle, how did you find yourself in Vietnam? Michelle Chang: Sure. Well, it was actually not on the top of my list. However, we had some really good friends who moved to Vietnam for work. They were working with a non-profit for five years in Hanoi, and we couldn't pass up the opportunity to visit them while they were there and experience the country with their help. And, honestly, I'm not sure if I would have gone because Vietnam did just feel intimidating and very foreign, you know, not knowing the language. But they were able to, you know, show us around, teach us how to cross the street in Hanoi, which is a big deal. And all of those kind of things. And so we stayed with them for two weeks the first year. We actually loved it. We went back again the next year and stayed with them two more weeks. And from there, we felt a little bit more comfortable and decided to venture on our own. And I had seen great things about Hoi An. I believe this was 2016. So we ventured down that way into central Vietnam for the first time, stayed with a homestay, and just fell in love with that family. They were really into cross-cultural exchange. They took us to, you know, their ancient uh, sites that were nearby to their family home and family lunches and drove us around on their motorbikes. And so that was really special. So because of all those connections, we ended up going back again and again. And each time we went back, we actually stayed longer and longer until this past year, we stayed for the full three months that our visa would allow. So that's how we ended up in Vietnam. Kerry Newsome: Wow. It actually mirrors a lot how I, I guess, developed my more in-depth relationship with Vietnam. Certainly from 2016, I found myself in a similar situation. Just the more I saw, the more I got to know the Vietnamese, the more I explored the country, it just It just took me over. I just fell in love with it. So, I totally get where you're coming from on that sphere. Let's talk about some of the common mistakes that you've seen travelers make with their phones and just data abroad so we can kick off this subject and get a bit deeper into it. Michelle Chang: Sure. Well, I would say even just a few years ago, it was easier to travel without using your phone too much. But not just in Vietnam, but around the world, it's becoming increasingly more important because airlines are switching to digital tickets. And sometimes you need to get confirmations digitally. So if you're not connected by your phone, that can really get you into trouble. But some of the common mistakes People are used to using their phone every day at home, which is great, but a lot of times that's not enough and there's some new practices, habits, new settings that you might need to try. So for example, I've seen a lot of people that visit us when we're in Vietnam who lose charge on their phone very easily because they're not used to using their phone almost all day every day, whether it's, you know, they're using a map or the translate, taking pictures, and they're out, you know, from their hotel, they're out and about, so they're not near a charger. So that's one thing is just every night, make sure that you're charging it all the way up. And if you can get one of those portable battery chargers to carry with you. So if you do run out of battery, you can charge your phone on the go. Another big mistake, I would say, at least for Americans, I'm not sure what it's like in Australia, but the home phone carriers that we have They offer international plans, which are convenient, but they're often not a great deal compared to the other options that are out there for getting international phone data. And if you don't have an international plan, some of us have made mistakes and learned the hard way, you make a two minute phone call outside your country and it ends up being like a shockingly high bill. Absolutely. So the good news is that there are other options, and we have tested a lot of them, but more recently we end up using eSIMs quite frequently just because of the ease of setting it up. It's still very cost effective, but which option is right for you depends on your phone, your data needs, if your phone is unlocked, and those kind of things. The other thing I have found is a lot of people don't know how much data they actually need when they're purchasing these international plants. They end up overpaying or just overusing data that they don't need to. We met a family when we were in Halong Bay, and it was really neat. This young family was traveling the world and doing their schooling for a year from abroad with two kind of preteen kids. And they were each using at least a gig of data a day. And compared to what Jed and I use, it's really only less than three gigs for a whole month, because we know how to manage our data and when to use Wi-Fi and what apps to use on Wi-Fi and what we prioritize our data on. So that can really make a big difference cost-wise, if you're not familiar with how those things work. I would say just in general, not using the phone as a tool to its full potential. We'll talk about some of the apps that have been really helpful. Kerry Newsome: I agree totally with you. I think that using your phone in Vietnam for some of the most basic things is definitely on the rise. And as you were moving about the country, being able to access your email even on your phone, which does require special setup. Because depending on how you've made your bookings prior to arrival, you may be receiving emails or email notifications to advise you of some changes to those. And that could be anything from your hotel, to your airline, to the tour that you've purchased. It can be all sorts of things. It's crazy just how often you're going to use your phone. And for some people, they're not going to bring their full laptop with them, depending on their length of stay, or they don't have portability devices like that to access. Lots to share in this area. And the more I'm listening to you, I'm going, gosh, you know, battery, having a portable battery, being able to increase the frequency that you can use your phone is so important and the eSIM definitely. I want to just talk about that eSIM and the area of data roaming and switching on and off, because as you said, you can get very quickly caught or trapped into thinking that, oh, I've got the eSIM, and very quickly you're then eating up your data. And that can be fixed very simply by turning the roaming off when you get into a Wi-Fi setup like in your hotel, which is offered to you free. Can you talk to us a little bit more about switching between those two and how we can better manage that? Michelle Chang: Sure. I think the first thing to understand is what does use up a lot of data. And that's mostly things that are having to go back and forth from the internet to get lots and lots of information. So if you think of a single word is just a tiny bit of information, a paragraph is more information, a picture is a thousand words, right? And a video is a thousand pictures. And so that's kind of how data stacks up. So if you think about, you know, if somebody sends you an image on WhatsApp or another messaging service and you are out and about, if you want to view that image through the message, it's probably going to use data unless you have settings that you've changed in your phone that specifically say, don't use this app when I'm on data, only use this app when I'm on Wi-Fi. So you want to be cognizant of when you are downloading or uploading images and especially video. So you don't want to be streaming YouTube unless you have an unlimited data plan or you don't care how much money you're spending on it. So those are some things, you know, video calls also are going to take up a lot of data. Kerry Newsome: Correct. And even in your search, when you're searching Google for something or you're searching Google Maps and then, you know, it's finding you that cafe that you want to go to, but then you're clicking on that image, kind of can go in a rollercoaster way very quickly to chew up that data. Am I right? Michelle Chang: Yes, it can. I have found Google Maps is not quite as fast at chewing up data as I expected. But the other trick is to make sure that you're downloading offline data for the maps and for any other apps that you might be using while you're out and about. Because that way, the data, the information is already living on your phone. And it's not having to grab so much from the internet. So that does save you on your data usage as well, is making sure that you have some offline downloads where appropriate. Kerry Newsome: Got it. All right. So this is probably a good segue into talking about what you recommend as kind of the most essential apps to use. Michelle Chang: So one thing that I like to teach travelers going abroad is to get familiar with just four of the most essential smartphone apps. And they apply to Vietnam especially. So the four I talk about are Google Maps, which we've mentioned, Google Translate, WhatsApp for messaging, and whatever ride share or ride hailing app is common in the region, which in Vietnam we know is Grab, G-R-A-B. And I think if you don't do anything else on your smartphone, if maybe you are kind of overwhelmed by technology and that kind of makes you ignore things, these are the four that I don't think that you should ignore. The more familiar you get with these they will make a bigger difference in being able to travel confidently and solve the problems that come up. They make communication easier and all of that helps with your safety and security when you're not familiar with the place. So the other thing I use is a free currency conversion app all the time when we're in Vietnam because as we know all those zeros can be very confusing to convert in your head. So I can talk a little bit more about Google Maps. Obviously, it's helpful for navigating, but I actually use it just as much for my trip planning and research, finding those hidden gems. So I really use it constantly. And I actually had an older friend, a retiree, who was visiting while we were in Vietnam, and she asked me about it. She's like, it looks like you have this whole system for saving points on your map. I've never done that. And that's kind of what led me to realize it could be helpful to teach some of these different tricks and tools that I've learned over the years. So anyways, unlike TripAdvisor, which has reviews purely from tourists, I really like the reviews on Google Maps because it's more likely to include locals. and it translates their comments into English automatically. So that's helpful. Google Translate, for anyone who's not familiar, this app can translate signs and menus in real time, as well as the audio of live conversations. So for example, we often rent a motorbike when we're in Hoi An, and once we pulled into a parking lot and there was a sign in Vietnamese right above the parking spot, and we're kind of like, hmm, the last thing we want is to get a parking ticket or something, or just be culturally inappropriate. So we pull out the Google Translate app, and we've downloaded Vietnamese offline, so it's not using data. And we can just point our camera of the phone at the sign, and it immediately switches the letters from Vietnamese to English words, and now we know what it says, which ended up not being an issue anyways. We also use it to show people at restaurants because we're not very good with spicy food. So we have on our Google Translate, you know, not spicy, please. Because even though we have learned how to say it in Vietnamese, our pronunciation isn't always understood. So we want to be able to communicate clearly. And we use it a lot to communicate at the market, or even with our Vietnamese friends who speak English, but sometimes they don't know certain vocabulary. So it really helps connect with people. And even though we're using a screen, you wouldn't think technology It might be getting in the way, but it really has been helpful to us. We even had a homestay host, a couple, when we stayed in Ninh Binh. And they were super enthusiastic users of Google Translate. I've actually never seen anyone use it. quite as fiercely, so they used the audio capture side of it and would have whole conversations with us as soon as we arrived. They would speak into it in Vietnamese, say, my name is such and such, what's your name, where are you from, and they would hold it up to us so we could hear the translation and see the translation on their phone. they would point to us to speak back into the phone, which we did in English, and it translated back to Vietnamese, and we could just have a little conversation that way. So pretty special, yeah. Kerry Newsome: And I've used that quite a lot when I am hiring a driver, as the driver will have like about, you know, five or six words that, you know, he has learned parrot fashion in English. But to go anything beyond that, he struggles. And so, you know, there's no way I want to make him feel uncomfortable or, you know, I'm struggling with my Vietnamese. I use the the Google Translate app. And, you know, you can just see their faces beam as in, oh, great, you know, we can converse using this tech tool. And they become more relaxed. And, you know, when you've got a journey, maybe four or five hours in a car, and you've got to stop, you know, for a toilet break, or, you know, you, you know, you need to buy some water, or you've got a lunch, or, or something like that, that you want to, to get maybe a banh mi on the side of the road that you've seen, or, that you want them to stop for. Using Google Translate can be really handy in that situation. I mean, that's obviously more in the remote areas. I think you'll find English is, you know, well-spoken certainly in the tourist hubs and the major cities pretty well, like you can get away with it. But in the outer regions, it's really helpful. Michelle Chang: The other app, so WhatsApp, is a messaging app that I have found is really widely used across the world and including in Vietnam. So if you're not using that, it allows you to send messages, including pictures and videos. You can also do voice calls and video calls. but it uses wi-fi so if you are on a free wi-fi network then your use of it is totally free you don't have to have an international phone number it's going to use your home phone number and that has been really helpful because individuals use it but also businesses so if you are meeting up with a tour guide or trying to see if a restaurant is going to be open, those kinds of things. A lot of times you'll be connecting with them through WhatsApp. Kerry Newsome: I think WhatsApp is your best workaround if you don't want to do the eSIM or you don't want to have to use any of your data or whatever you've bought. If you want to minimize it, I would definitely urge you to use WhatsApp. for your messages, phone calls, all of that, because it is prolific in Vietnam, very well accepted, and even if you need to ring home, you know, if you make sure everybody's on WhatsApp at home that you want to call, It's so easy and it's free if you're on Wi-Fi. In fact, I tell people the only way I'm going to call you is through WhatsApp because I don't want to buy big data and spend too much money on an eSIM. It requires mobile data. So, I use WhatsApp a lot. Michelle Chang: So the last one is rideshare, which in Vietnam, the most common tends to be Grab. It's used throughout a lot of Southeast Asia. So you definitely want to set that up before you get in the country. Make sure that you have your payment method, I guess the word is, payment method set up. You don't want to show up in the airport. Kerry Newsome: On the payment method, What do you advise? Because I have my thoughts on that. I'm just keen to hear what yours are on setting up the payment method in Grab. Michelle Chang: Yes, that's a good question. I've heard good reasons for cash, which is that the drivers usually prefer cash. I tend to do the credit card and I'll tell you why. There have been quite a few scams, especially for new visitors who arrive in Vietnam and are not familiar with all those zeros in the currency. The drivers will sometimes say, you gave me $5,000, when actually you gave them $50,000, unfortunately. So that happened to some friends of ours who were just arriving in Hanoi. So it does help with that. Also, you know, you don't have to make change, you know exactly what your fare is going to be. If you as long as you have a credit card that is not going to have international fees. That's what we use. And Kerry Newsome: That's your go-to? Michelle Chang: Yeah. Tell me your, your, yeah, your take on it. Kerry Newsome: My take on it after many, many years using Grab is to use the cash option. And the reason I do that is because I'm fairly familiar with the fact that cash is king in Vietnam. It does mean that I can tip. the driver, he can see the tip and he can use the tip straight away. So, if the ride is, you know, 50,000 or 100,000 or if it's 85, I might just kind of round it up. And I don't know whether there is a network. Like, I've had this conversation with many people, but I always get a grab really quickly. Like, most people will be saying, oh, it might take 10 to 15 minutes to get a grab. I jump on the app, and obviously, you know, I've been using it a long time. I ask for a drive at the same place, and I'll get a grab in like two seconds flat. Like, they'll be there in quick, smart time. So, I don't know whether there's this little network where they say, oh, if Kerry Newsome comes on and she books it, she's obviously now in Hanoi or Saigon or wherever she is, she pays cash and she slightly tips. So, I don't know. I've got no way I can confirm that, but I feel that for the slight inconvenience that it causes me to make sure I've got the right change. So I always make sure when I book that car or bike, that I actually have as close as possible to the right amount of money, because you're right. Scams can happen when the persons will say, oh, you know, they don't have change. They can't speak a lot of English, a lot of the drivers anyway, as we've previously discussed. So you then have to be, you know, doing this wrangle with Google Translate. So, you know, being a little bit smart, thinking ahead and keeping some change ready to have the right money is the key if you choose the cash option. A lot of people use the credit card, as you say, or travel money card, whatever that works very efficiently. I've just preferred over time to use the cash option. So from both senses, you can decide which you think suits you best. Okay. Uh, on the, on the grab, uh, option two, I think, um, Grab is great for just not only rideshare and bike or car, but it's also good for food. So if you were in a situation where, you know, maybe someone is sick or, you know, someone in your party or your group and you're staying at a homestay or maybe it's bucketing down rain and you don't want to go out or whatever, it does have the option for food. delivery as well. So, it's really well set up. The app is very easy to use. So, as Michelle has said, I strongly urge you to set it up on your phone, have it the way you want it when you arrive. And I think you can feel very confident in using it for, you know, car or or bike. And sometimes the bike option is actually quicker to get you to a particular location because of traffic and all sorts. So if you feel confident with that, they're going to have a helmet for you to get on the bike, to feel safe. They know the roads, you know, very well. You can match your name on their app, on their phone to you. So you know the driver, is for you, you know the vehicle is the one, and you know they have the address that you have put in. So, you know, like Uber in my country and in some other countries around the world, it's a very similar match. Yeah, all power to grab. There are other ones now in Vietnam that a lot of the Vietnamese locals use. I haven't got as much experience with those, but I've been told maybe there's one called B or something like that. But I think for the purpose of us giving you one that we know and trust, grab would be the way to go. Michelle Chang: Yes, definitely. There's the electric vehicles now too that just this year, I believe, have really spread around. I haven't had the chance to use that, but I do like that it's electric vehicles. Kerry Newsome: Yes, definitely. Let's talk, Michelle, about on apps, but maybe expand it a bit more into social media in Vietnam, and maybe a little bit about Facebook. What's your experience with Facebook in Vietnam? I personally think Vietnam has been built on Facebook, but For other countries, it's kind of dying off. What's your experience been with Facebook and using it as you've been getting about Vietnam? Michelle Chang: That's a good question. We do have a few of our Vietnamese friends who are on Facebook a little bit. We also find quite a few of the businesses that, instead of setting up their own website, are using the Facebook page. So that tends to be a good place to go and check, you know, have they updated their page recently or has it been you know, since before the pandemic that they posted and maybe they're not actually open anymore. Or you can message them through Facebook a lot of times if you have a question. So, yeah, that can be a good resource as well. Kerry Newsome: I find Facebook truly the most effective way to reach out or to find or get more information that's up to date of businesses. Not so much people, occasionally people, but more so businesses because the business will put up their opening times. They'll put up any changes in their menu. Sometimes if they're a particular bar, they will put up events that are on. So, if there's, you know, a band playing or, you know, they've got some kind of special festival activity or anything like that. I'll tell you a funny story. I wanted to get a massage one time in Hoi An and it was during Tet. So, you know, during Tet, a lot of businesses during the actual Tet national holiday period, you know, it's a little bit hit and miss on who's open, who's not, as a lot of places operate with skeleton staff. Yeah. So, I wanted this massage and I thought, oh, there's no chance I'm going to get it because, you know, no one will be around doing that. Sure enough, I go to this Facebook page and I'll give a plug for Citrus. which is a lovely massage spa place in Hoi An. And this citrus spa, so I send them a message, they say they're open. And I reach out to the person, she comes back to me in English very quickly to say, yes, she's open and she can fit me in. So then my next problem is, who's gonna be around on Grab? to get me there because, you know, obviously a lot of the drivers are not working because they're with families and things like that. So, I'm thinking, oh, damn, you know, I can get the appointment, but how am I going to get there? So, then I say to the girl, I'm not sure how I can get there. The next thing she comes back and says, that's okay, where are you staying? I'll come and pick you up and drop you back. I'm going, oh my God, I love this country. So, sure enough, she arrives, she's got a second helmet, I get on the back of her bike, we go. So, that's kind of the example of some of the exchanges I've had using Facebook, certainly giving reviews of places they love it. When you do that, that certainly wins you favor. They seem to check it super regularly. So if it is a business that is still operating and it is still wanting patronage, you know, you will find that they will be fairly active on Facebook. So that's kind of my experience on that one. What about apps, Michelle, like, you know, looking at managing the travel that you've booked? So, you know, I'm talking about your airlines or your hotels or things like that. Do you kind of include that in your prep for your smartphone? Michelle Chang : I personally don't tend to get the airline apps for my travel in Southeast Asia. Occasionally I will for domestic travel more often. I've heard a lot of people use the app TripIt when they want to keep their itinerary organized and you can email confirmations to your TripIt address and it will populate the confirmation number and the times and the dates for you. So that can be really handy if you have a lot going. When we stay in Vietnam, we're staying for a long time, so we don't have a highly booked schedule. So I end up just using my own Google Calendar for any appointments or tours that we're scheduling. Okay. Kerry Newsome: What do you use? So, I book a lot of different options but if I'm using like for instance an online travel agent like a booking.com or an Expedia or Something like that, I will often, I will have that app on my phone because not only does it allow me to search for other options if I want to change my plans because I want to keep it fluid, but it'll also have my current booking. So when I walk to the check-in counter inside the hotel, I can present my current booking there for them to refer to. And that seems to be coming a norm for people that are using various online travel agencies like that. But as you say, you've got to be kind of on the move and all the rest of it. But another funny story I want to add to that is that you can go to the hotel. And you can ask the hotel, is there a room available or, you know, what is the rate for the room or whatever. And say they've got the room and it's current, but then you can say, okay, oh, that's 120 US for the night or whatever, that seems quite high. I have actually stepped back into reception, got onto an app, say it's booking.com, say it's Expedia, you know, whatever the one commonly I'm using at the time. And I've looked at the room and most times out of 10, I will get a better rate going through that app. And sometimes the receptionist will even tell me to go to an app and I will get a better rate rather than going to direct. Now, There's a whole lot of stories around why that happens. And I won't go into that now to explain that from an industry point of view, but that's where the app can be extremely handy. And I have booked the app, gone back up to the reception counter and said, here's my booking. And they've gone, oh, great. You know, welcome Kerry Newsom, blah, blah, blah. Crazy, hey? But that is, that is how tech is taking over travel in such a dramatic way that it never did before. So, just to be aware of that, people, that, you know, depending on what you feel comfortable with and which online travel agencies that you use, if they have an app, I'd strongly urge you to set that up on your phone. Can we delve a little bit deeper and you can give us your feedback on, you know, operating a business and working remotely in Vietnam? Michelle Chang: Sure. Well, there is a lot of free Wi-Fi these days throughout Vietnam in cafes, a lot of the businesses have upgraded their Wi-Fi speeds, and there's some really beautiful and fun places. I really enjoy the style and decor in Vietnamese cafes, so that's always a treat. The only thing that bothers me sometimes in those cafes is smoking, which has gotten better in indoor venues there. But a lot of times there's like an open air patio or outdoor seating where smoking is still permitted. So you can't guarantee that it won't be a part of your experience. There are also some great co-working spots, especially in the bigger cities, Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh City, Da Nang. Hoi An is a bit smaller, but it has a great little nomad community at Hub Hoi An. I know that you've spoken with Florian, the the owner there now, and it overlooks the rice fields. It's a really beautiful setting. We personally do tend to do a lot of our work from wherever we're staying, whether it's a homestay or an apartment rental that's furnished. We just double check with the owner about the Wi-Fi speeds before we book. We make sure that they have a desk or some kind of workspace. But these days, the Wi-Fi in Vietnam has been pretty good most of the time. It's actually better than a lot of places in Europe. I think they just are able to or have been upgrading their infrastructure, at least compared to when we started in 2015-2016. It was decent back then and the speeds have gotten even faster. So it really is a great remote work destination, in my opinion. Kerry Newsome: Absolutely. And I think there is definitely a growing interest in the digital nomad space. And, you know, nomads can be all ages. So, if you're wanting to travel to Vietnam and you want to take your business with you, or you maybe want to extend your stay after your holiday and continue to work on, You can really feel confident to be able to do that. Michelle's right, you know, the speed of the internet is important. Maybe if I was to offer a level of caution, it would be around the security of free Wi-Fi. Maybe that's something to be mindful of in, you know, just transferring money or, you know, doing things like that, just to be a little bit careful on that note. And as Michelle and I were talking earlier that there is that two ways to do it. One, you can do it from, you know, your place of stay, the hotel or whatever doesn't seem to have any, you know, major limitations in my experience and usually pretty good. Or if you feel like you want to, you know, meet some people and become you know, a bit part of a community of travelers and that, you know, that hub Hoi An kind of set up or, you know, there's other ones like we work and that in Saigon now, I think. There's a lot more of that happening around the place. You've only just got to search that. But that is a great way to meet other travelers, get tips and hints on how to be more effective in those hubs and really be part of that community. So, there's definitely those two options. And if you do it in a cafe, they don't even feel like you can sit on a couple of cups of coffee for hours. And people do that. The smoking is interesting. That's, I guess, are they smoking or vaping, Michelle? Michelle Chang: Well, maybe both, but definitely smoking. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, that would put me off. But in the ones that I've been at so far, I've managed to avoid that, thankfully. But yeah, I've been able to set up and just stay there for ages and they're very friendly and they don't feel the need to push you on at all. summarizing, is there anything else that like, this is your thing, you know, intentional travelers, this is what you do in setting people up and training people up with tutorials to get smartphone ready, which I'll make sure everyone, I put the link to Michelle's website so you can access that. Is there anything I haven't asked you? Is anything we haven't covered that we should for everyone. Anything you can think of that you'd like to add just in wrapping up? Michelle Chang: I would just add to remember that you don't need to be a computer whiz or an expert phone guru, but do invest in yourself a little bit on this topic because smartphone skills can really pay off on all of your future trips. It's going to help you be able to answer those unanticipated questions and deal with bumps in the road, which inevitably happen when you're traveling and especially when you're in an unfamiliar place. So it can really help you feel more confident, keep you safe. help you find hidden gems, make sure that you're not missing out on something better, just by having this next level of skill, just learning the next step. And a lot of times, you know, you might already be using Google Maps, you might already be using a messaging service, if not WhatsApp. And so you have that foundation, even if you don't feel tech savvy yet. And you're just going to be taking those skills to the next level. And that's going to make a huge difference for your travel. Kerry Newsome: Absolutely. And if I just want to finish up is to make sure you have the right plugs. It is a two-prong setup for plugs. Sometimes the sockets can be a bit dodgy as in you put the plug in and it doesn't like sit or doesn't kind of grab properly. And that's because those sockets are sometimes a little bit old depending on the place you're staying. Sometimes just one will do it. I think it's about 220 volt it runs on. So sometimes some of the devices that you plug in don't actually power up as fast as they would in your own home country. So just to be aware of that. Last time I took not only a plug, but I then took a small cube set up which had about four sockets to it, so it meant I could put my phone, my laptop, my hair dryer, whatever else I But I wanted to use using just the one socket because a hotel doesn't have 100 sockets for you to use in the first place. So it depends how many devices you've got going. But just to be making sure that you do have the right plugs and there's plenty of websites, et cetera, that you can find that information. Kerry Newsome: Thank you for coming on the show. Michelle Chang: My pleasure. If you would like to know more about Michelle’s tutorials and online programs you can connect directly with her here https://intentionaltravelers.com/ For a great experience with a buddy to help you enjoy local areas, business situations, translations and possibly medical appointments, why not book a Travel Buddy through https://www.tubudd.com/ Use the Promo code KERRYVN5 on the payment page in the booking TUBUDD App to receive 5% discount on hourly rate of services.

S5- E19 Facelifts and Dental Surgery Vietnam – A good news story Kerry Newsome : Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Well, people, this is probably a travel experience or an experience in Vietnam that you probably won't see everywhere. It's certainly an experience in Vietnam that is quite unique and a little bit left to field of what I have normally featured on the program since I've been going since 2020, believe it or not. However, it's a story that we think needs to be told. And it's come about through us building a very close relationship with a dental and cosmetic surgery hospital based in Saigon. And this has come about for Kelley and I, well for her much longer, over 10 years, for me in the last couple of years. And we're at the point now where we think it's time to share. It's time to share with you what we know, what works, how we can bring Vietnam to the stage for cosmetic and dental surgery. Of course, Thailand and Bali and possibly even India have already earned their badges in this space, but we think Vietnam is definitely the newcomer to this area. And while we're not putting hand on heart to say that every hospital or every dental clinic in Vietnam has this credibility. We can say it hand on heart about Worldwide. We've had a very close relationship with the hospital from their top exec team down. And now in this episode, we get to share with you Kelley's facelift procedure. I was lucky to be part of that as her support person. And we're going to go through kind of all of the facets of that procedure. Not, you know, not the nitty gritty awful bits. of which, thankfully, there isn't too much. But, you know, just of the common questions that we do get asked, we hope that we've got those covered in this session. And please feel free to reach out to us directly. That's either to Kelley or myself, or you might like to join our new Facebook group called Facelifts and Dental Vietnam. So, I hope you enjoy the show. I know it is a little bit off the beaten path, but if you've been considering this kind of surgery, you know, something dental, something cosmetic in your own country and just thought it's just too much or possibly you wanted to be away and have that procedure with a little bit of anonymity, you know, Vietnam would definitely be the place as, even though Kelley went through this as a serious procedure, she was able to recover quite quickly and we still managed to have a great holiday experience. And, you know, there sort of in lies the marriage between What About Vietnam as a travel advisor and planner to medical tourism. So we hope you'll enjoy the show. And as I said, please feel free to ask us any questions. Anyway, let's bring Kelley onto the show and let's chat everything to do with facelift surgery in Vietnam. Here we are with Kelley McCarthy sitting in Saigon. And let me tell you, this trip has been a very different one. And you're going to hear all about it shortly. But suffice to say that it's been an experience, maybe a once in a lifetime kind of experience, but we thought it was important that while we were still here, while we were still, I guess, in the moment, we wanted to kind of share the experience with you. So please welcome Kelley to the program. Hi, Kel. Hi. Okay, so Kelley, I've got a few big questions for you, honey. So we wanted to start with the subject of facelifts and dental work in Vietnam. Now, we know we're going where angels fear to tread, as in, you know, you might be thinking of an overseas destination to have this kind of work done, but possibly your first choice would be Thailand, or even India to some degree, but not Vietnam. Vietnam really hasn't taken the stage yet for this kind of work. However, over the last 12 to 18 months, we have further developed a relationship that Kelley started in the dental area about 10 years ago. So it's not as if we're the new kids on the block here. It's not as if we've just walked the streets and, you know, walked into a front door of a place that said dental or something that looked flashed that said cosmetic surgery as we were rushing through the door with enthusiasm. We went, no, let's start with who we know, what we know, and really the birth of this started with Kelley's relationship from a dental perspective 10 years ago. But today, I really want to focus on Kelley's experience in having a facelift. There is another episode in the series where Kelley does talk about the dental aspects of her duration, I guess, or livelihood with dental and worldwide hospital. So you can get that and I'll put that in a link in the show notes. But to start off with, I thought, you know, we would start at the basics and just, you know, Kelley, can I put it to you? You know, why did you want a facelift? I think you're gorgeous just the way you are. But like, you know, everything and these kinds of decisions are very personal. So, you know, why did you want to do this? And maybe then add to that, why did you feel confident to do it in Vietnam at Worldwide? Kelley McCarthy : So for me, I'm 53, fast approaching 54. I have a 14 year old son. And every morning when I looked in the mirror, I was seeing visions of my mother look back at me, which was never a good thought, realistically. However, I could just see ageing creeping up. I could see the neck starting to drop down. I just wanted a little bit of a refresher and I thought, what were my options for it? Probably another contributor was my 14 year old son would have fun giggling and laughing with me sitting on the couch and pulling and plucking at my little layers of skin underneath my chin. So that was that was kind of the real big push to look at opportunities for it. The reason I chose Worldwide was, like you said, I've had a relationship with them over the last 10 years, referred numerous people across for dental felt very safe and secure in knowing that they would look after me. So as compared to going into another hospital, I'd just be another number in the system. I wouldn't know the surgeons, I wouldn't know what they did. So I did a lot of pre-surgery research in discussing it. As you know, I come across here quite regularly. So I'd been to the hospital, I'd looked at options, discussed options with them, and I think Price was a really big factor as well, because in Australia, I just wouldn't have been selfish enough to spend the money that it requires to have done what I've done, because that's a large chunk on a mortgage or a new car or renovation or something to that calibre. Whereas here it was a lot more affordable. Kerry Newsome: And I think, you know, we can't dismiss that. I think the value side of this kind of surgery and the attention to detail that comes with that, you don't have to sacrifice anything to still get what you want. you know, and we were very clear and, you know, like Kelley and I are going to talk a little bit about the process, but, you know, just because it's cheap, it doesn't mean you're going to get a less experienced doctor or, you know, have to forego or sacrifice certain things to, you know, get, you know, three quarters of what you want. In fact, there were things that were added into Kelley's surgery that she didn't ask for, but was very thing when it came along. So, you know, I think we have to accept that, you know, it is an expense. It's a cost. And, you know, when you're making these decisions, and this includes dental, we've had some wonderful experience with customers that you know, have had dental quotations for work that they want done back in Australia. And, you know, there's lots of zeros in those quotations. So, you know, they're quite saddened that they can't proceed in their own country. But when they come here and they find, you know, the doctors can give them what they want at an affordable price, you know, the relief on their face, the happiness on their face is just sheer joy and then with the final result. So let's start, Kel, when we talk about process. Let's kind of begin with the consultation and the options there for everyone. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, so I was lucky enough to do a face-to-face consult. That was because As you all know, I'm here quite regularly. However, that opportunity is still there to discuss via phone call. So you can do that via a WhatsApp number. You could also do they're open to arranging a Zoom face to face as well. So we can do that. We can arrange that for you or you can put it in emails what you're actually after, send some photos and then they can give you a guided quotation. What I would always suggest is maybe just allow a little bit more just in case, because like anything, when you do an actual face to face, you can see exactly where we're sitting at. with it. But like I said, nothing altered for myself. Just got a few extra little offers on the morning before surgery that I was like, yep, run with those. You're going to take fat from where and put it where? I'm all for that. Kerry Newsome: Go for it. Yeah. And I might add, Kelley also was here a couple of days earlier and they had a wisdom tooth issue. And so before you know it, she's having tooth whipped out a couple of days before even the facelift surgery and I'm going oh what the… Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, so I went in just for my regular dental clean and he'd sort of said, we've spoken about this before Kelley, you've got a wisdom tooth at the back there that's looking compromised, I think we should take it out. So I sort of looked at them and said, but I've got a facelift in seven days time, is that going to compromise anything? No, no, whoop, downstairs, got my face all numbed up in the chair, back out, all done and dusted in 45 minutes. And to be totally honest with you, I know if you have a wisdom tooth done in our country, You are ice packed up, you come out looking like a chipmunk with the big headband of ice packs. I was given an ice pack, taken away, some painkillers, and I'll be totally honest with you, the healing was so much quicker. I didn't have any of the effects of general anesthetic from the Wisdom Tooth, it was done all under local, and I actually had to go back the day after to actually ask them to flush out the wound because it felt so good, I chewed on that side. Kerry Newsome: That's testament to how good it was. Yes, I don't see too much evidence of it inhibiting any enjoyment factors of your stay with your husband and your son during that period. And this is all just kind of a few days before the actual facelift operation. So I kind of arrived as a so-called support person to go through this process because I'm not going to say we came here with absolute 100%. faith that everything was going to go smashing well. We came here with, you know, a great sense of confidence because, you know, we do have a strong relationship from the, you know, the management team and the owners and founders down. So, you know, we know that they're going to be taking a very watchful, careful eye over. But like anything, and Kelley and I have talked about this in the last few days, just about that leap of faith thing, you know, with any kind of surgery, any kind of surgery, you know, anything can happen. So, you know, we kept that in mind and we're going to talk about some of the considerations. So, maybe the first consideration to talk about is support person. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, so Kerry put a hand up to come across as my support person. I don't know if that was for excuse language shits and giggles, but it's really important that your support person is a person who is confident and if you need anything, would be able to go out and achieve your request. So If you are bringing an anxious traveller with you, that's not really the kind of support person you need. You need someone that's going to make you feel comfortable knowing that they've got your back. So that's first tip on your support person. Kerry Newsome: Yeah. And I think someone that knows you pretty well, you know, that is not going to do it worse. Definitely. Exactly. And, you know, you don't need any extra drama. You need someone also that can communicate with the staff at the hospital, which, you know, they're really terrific, but you will be engaged with those staff to, you know, accommodate any of that person's needs at the time. Sometimes, you know, they can be a little bit bizarre, But others are just, you know, can you go and get this? Can you get that? Blah, blah, blah. You know, I brought my bag. Can I get my phone out? Can I get my glasses to read? You know, just little, little, little things that, you know, happen along the way to make sure that, you know, the person that's having this surgery is feeling as confident and comfortable that, you know, everything is set. You know, she didn't hand over a will or gave me a safety deposit box number. But, you know, she made sure that, you know, I can contact her husband and da, da, da, and update him, which I did. So he was, you know, back in Perth, Australia while this was happening. And he was just getting the good photos. Not necessarily those early ones. Which were pretty graphic. Kelley McCarthy: So that's probably another thing. Make sure your support person is somebody that doesn't have a weak stomach. Kerry Newsome : Yes, not going to faint on the first look. Exactly. So maybe the second consideration is your length of stay. Kelley McCarthy: yeah so they will tell you that stitches come out so for this is for a facelift stitches come out at 10 days and you're good to go. I've stayed 14 just to have that little buffer on the side to really feel reassured that I am safe to go on that flight. I would have been safe at 10 days, I think, but it was just good. And like today, before I'm leaving tomorrow, I'm definitely going to be going to the hospital just to make sure everything is A-OK, there's nothing I need to worry about, no more tablets, no more anti-bruising tablets, no antibiotics or anything. So it's just nice to have that reassurance of it. And the hospital will accommodate you in every step of the way and help you out. For example, for me, my hair, just not being able to wash my own hair every couple of days, the hospital would be, Kelley, pop down or we'll send the driver for you. They washed my hair, gave a little bit of a blow dry. Of course, there's no styling there, but a little bit of a blow dry. But you came back to your room and you could hair was clean, it didn't feel hot and sweaty or anything. So it's just those little extras that were really helpful. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and you know, speaking of the hot and sweaty bit, I think having an air-conditioned vehicle pick you up from your air-conditioned hotel taking you to, you know, a quality hospital. You know, when we talk about this hospital, we're not saying it's a five-star resort hospital that sometimes you'll see in your Instagram photos in Thailand and things like that. It is, you know, a really good quality hospital. However, don't expect it to be at that level or standard. However, in saying that, having the opportunity to go back and forth, and like we were doing it, was it every second day? Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, I was going every second day. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, so they were changing if there was any need changing any bandages, they were applying cream, they were kind of, you know, just doing all those little fiddly bits because… Cleaning the wound that I didn't feel comfortable with doing, so they were doing that. Yeah, and all that just ticks those boxes of confidence. You know, like we were kind of comparing some friends and stuff like that, you know, that we know have had it in Australia and stuff like that. Like you walk out the door sometimes in those situations and they'll say, okay, we'll see you in two weeks, or we'll see you in 10 days, or we'll see you when the stitches are out. So the gap between A and B in that situation, you know, you get nada, you get nothing. Where we're kind of back and forth, the head of administration that's looking after Kelley is texting her a message, checking in with her every morning, how she's feeling, Like, hello? I haven't heard of those kind of experiences back in our country. Kelley McCarthy: No, it's just reassuring too. So there's days where I would wake up and my stitches would feel itchy and they might have felt a bit hot. That's probably because I've got a clinical mask on that's, you know, wrapped from my neck up. But I would start to have that, oh my goodness, it feels a bit warm. It's a little bit itchy. Does that mean I've got an infection? So, nope. I ring up the hospital, go in, have my wounds cleaned. And you get that, it's looking fantastic. Everything's great. So it was just that little bit of reassurance where you're not going to get that in your own country. They're going to tell you to clean your wound. They're going to tell, you know, oh, if you've got anything unsure, well, stitches behind your ears. You can't really tell if everything's OK because you can't really see around corners. So just that reassurance was a really big thing for me. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, absolutely. And would be for me too. While we're talking about the relationship with the doctor, the surgeon and, you know, this consult bit, I want you to speak, Kelley, to just about being clear about what you want. Kelley McCarthy: Yes. So be really assertive about what you want and make sure that they're understanding what you want. So for me, I didn't want that whole. windswept, I call it the cat in the hat look, cat lady look. I still wanted and it was something I was really, really careful about. I still wanted my lips to retain the same shape and I wanted my eyes to retain the same shape. So for me, that was a really important thing. It was about a freshen up. Yes, I probably could go tighter, but I didn't want that really, really tight, tight look. I still wanted a little bit of movement. And to be honest with you, I don't know how people really do that whole cat lady look, because it's really tight around your neck where you've had the neck lift and the liposuction done and everything like that. So for me, I've got the outcome that I really wanted. And like you said, you don't really know when you're going in, and that's with any surgery. You assume and have a vision in your own head, but you're not really 100% sure that's how it's gonna be when it come out. And this time I'm really happy. Kerry Newsome: And do we wanna talk about sedation choices here as a little story with that? Kelley McCarthy : Yeah, so when you come over here and you have it done, they do what's called IV sedation. So recommendation to everybody is do your research on IV sedation. It is a very twilight form of sedation. So you're just floating on the edge of a sleep and awake. And you don't really, I'll be honest with you, you can wake up slightly in it, but you don't really know what's going on. And for me, I did. I woke up in it to the two surgeons on me. I could see they were doing something, but I honestly didn't feel anything. I raised my hand and did a little bit of a And don't remember anything after that, but don't remember any pain related to that. So just keep in mind that with IV sedation It is that floating in and out of that twilight zone. You can opt though for full general anaesthetic But your recovery is going to be a lot a little bit harder on that too So for me, I actually felt really comfortable with IV sedation more so than general anaesthetic because I get incredibly ill with general anaesthetic and I still was a little bit ill with the sedation. So for me, it was a far better option because vomiting after a facelift is not really a great choice. Kerry Newsome: No, and I think once again, it gets back to choices. It's about knowing your own body, how you have performed in other situations where you've had anaesthetic and things like that. So, you know, your medications and all the rest of it, they want to know all of that history beforehand so that they go fully informed. So, you know, Kelley was a bit in woo-woo land when she came out of it and, you know, the pain was still managed. But maybe this is a good way, Kel, to segue into, you know, just, you know, your process of recovery now. from coming back to the hotel the next day through to getting the stitches out. So we're talking that maybe start the first three days. Kelley McCarthy: So I had the surgery, I believe it was about 10.30 on the Saturday morning. Correct. I was actually discharged by about 8.30 on the Sunday morning. And I tell you, when I got back to my hotel, just being in my own environment and my own space, was a great feeling anyway. I knew you were, you know, a text message or a phone call away. I knew I was in the hotel. I could get room service, which is a really important point and choice when you get in your hotel. Going back to something only three star, I wouldn't recommend splurge. Get at least a good four star or five star where you've got a room service menu as well, because you tend to dribble and eat and and all of the bits that go with it. And your choices, you want to know that they've got a good soup menu because soup is really all you can have for the first couple of days. By about day three or four, I think I ventured to noodles or something like that. Kerry Newsome: Yes, I saw you sucking those noodles up. Kelley McCarthy: My recovery for me, and everybody would be different, I actually found it really quite an easy recovery. I think by day four, I was out getting my nails done. Then I was getting pedicures. You know, I was out of it. You were thinking up places to go and shop. I was doing some shopping, which is the bonus. I'm one person in 10 million in a city. So that is a bonus. You just have that little bit where you're not going to walk down the street and see Mary or Betty or whatever. Kerry Newsome: We've got a range of scarves in there. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, my headdress was, I put scarves around it, because at first I was a little bit self-conscious of the bandages, so I put scarves around it, but by, I think by about the fifth day I was just out rocking the headband. Kerry Newsome: And like here, like nobody looks sideways at you. Kelley McCarthy: No, it was a couple of Westerners might have looked, because I think that was out of curiosity, so Westerners would have a look. Kerry Newsome: I think they actually wanted to sit down and go, Kelley McCarthy: What did you have done? Yeah, yeah, but the Vietnamese, it was nobody really looked at me. No, no. So, I wasn't really getting sympathy from anyone because nobody really cared. Kerry Newsome: I was trying to be sympathetic to you, but when you were slurping your noodles up or you were trying to find cake shops because the cakes here are just to die for and they're very soft, so she was able to kind of slip them down her tongue because you're not going to, you know, jump into a steak. Definitely not. Kelley McCarthy: And here I am at day 13 and I think chewing a steak would still be a little bit of a task. Because you've got to remember you've got, if you've had the neck lift or the liposuction, you've got the skin pulled back right up behind your ears. And also when they pull up, they're pulling up into the back of sort of your temple area. So if you're chewing, that's all stretching and moving. for it so just keep that in mind as well really consider your foods and your soft food choices and I'll be totally honest with you everybody the probably the most frustrating thing out of all was the actual is the actual bandage so by day 10 when your stitches come off come out you actually only have to wear that at night time so you have the day times free of it but it's the It's just that pressure of the bandage. It's a bit Hannibal looking. Yeah, it sort of straps around your neck. Then it comes up over your ears and straps on the top of your head. And then you pull another one tight back behind your head. So it's just that restrictive feeling. And if you're a side sleeper, no fun at all because your stitches are behind your ears. So it's adjusting to that sort of elevated sleeping in bed against your back. If you can meditate, people, that was what I would suggest. Kerry Newsome: Obviously, it's designed to compress and try and do its best job to minimize the swelling. And bruising. And the bruising, yes. So, you know, that's the role. I mean, the first few days you did have to wear it like all the time. But then, you know, as the days went on and the healing improved, you know, you could take it off for a few hours and that kind of has increased as time has gone on. So, you know, we're sitting here, I'm talking to you and you don't have it on. And, you know, I don't know how much you're going to wear it back when you get home. But, you know, until it finally heals, you've got a little bit of bruising still around under your neck and that. But like if you looked at Kelley when she fully is made up and you're going to see some photos with the show notes, go to the website, whataboutvietnam.com. you know, where we'll feature those photos. So you can get a full feel for, you know, beginning to end at how this looked. I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about the days then, like some people get very nervous about getting stitches out and we were a little bit nervous about that. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, I was a little bit anxious about it because you've got probably a lot I reckon a couple of hundred stitches. So they especially if you're having a neck lift as well, because you're not just having your face pulled, you're actually having the neck lift. So it pulls back behind your hairline. So I was a little bit anxious about that. But I'll be totally honest with you. When I went there, I laid there very calmly. You just feel the little Cut the little pop of the stitch where they go to cut it so that they can then pull it out. But because you're still Quite numb in that area and you will be for a couple of months a little bit numb in that area You really don't feel it so anyone that's quite nervous about any of this stitches coming out and Don't be. It was quite an easy process. If you say, you know, ouch or anything like that, they're like, sorry, sorry, sorry. And then they become even gentler. But I had a fabulous nurse who was gentle. She was so meticulous. I was lucky to have her and that's generally what they do too. So from the day I walked into the surgery, which was, and went and did my morning tests at 8.30, she was with me till I left 8.30 the next morning. So when my woke up or was counting down on the first few hours of surgery, when my four-hour pain meds were due and I'd push my buzzer, she was that face I saw each time. So it was nice knowing she'd been with the journey with me and knew where my pain levels were at, where I'd probably be at, whereas there wasn't any handovers with nurses every time. So that was another really nice little bonus with it too. Kerry Newsome: And, you know, when we got in the car, when you were coming back to the hotel, you know, you had in your bag all of your medications, all your creams, etc. So, you know, Even I didn't have to go and get very much stuff at that time to add to that. We did get a little bit of extra pain relief medication just to balance it out a bit. But that was, you know, Kelley's very knowledgeable in this area. She knows her own body well enough. She knows how she can process these kind of medications. know, she's a smart cookie. So she kind of knew, no, I need this and I need that and blah, blah, blah. So we were able to do that. But as the days have gone, that's included, you know, creams and antibiotics and things like that. And I might add, it never stopped her doing, like we have, We always have a great time when we come to Vietnam, and in particular, Saigon. Saigon has got so much to do. So, when we get here, we're trying new places, we're going to markets, we're shopping. She's got the best set of fingernails. I'll put those pictures in the show notes as well, and we'll give you some links to some fantastic restaurants that we discovered, one French one in particular, which turned out to be a Michelin star. So, you know, I guess what I'm trying to impress here is that you don't have to feel like, you know, you're going to endure this and it's the holy grail of, you know, morbidity to get through this process. You, you know, you are going to be able to you know, in a pretty short amount of time, you know, experience the city, enjoy some of its spoils and take it all in to make it a kind of holiday. Kelley McCarthy: Would you agree? Definitely. Definitely you could do. And that's one thing I would really recommend is if you're going to come and do this, add on a few extra days, speak to Kerry, get her to do a trip plan for you to see some exciting places or you know, like you might be able to take a quick trip north in a plane. Keeping in mind, you know, furthest destination being Hanoi is only a couple of hours in a flight. So if you want to go and do those beaches or you want to go off to an island or something like that, you're only, you know, an hour's flight, really, or an hour and 20 minutes flight from anything. So unless you're heading to the north. So, yeah, jump on board and even speak to Kerry about the trip planning and what else she can accommodate and make a real holiday of it, because By day three I had literally pretty much given up and at that stage I was on Panadol and Ibuprofen was the way that I was sort of medicating for it but by day three I lunchtime was the last pain meds I had. There might have been a couple of nights if I couldn't rest, I might have taken a couple of soluble Panadols just to sort of put my mind at ease and try and close my eyes and rest a little bit because, but that was more, that was not a pain, that was more about sleeping in a position I'm not used to sleeping in. So definitely can make this a holiday as well as your treatment. Kerry Newsome: And that's kind of where the marriage comes from, I guess, with What About Vietnam and us going into this area. We've just created our own Facebook group page called Facelifts and Dental Vietnam. So we would love you to jump on the Facebook group, ask questions. Now, in this, I want to be really clear about something. We're not saying that all of Vietnam has got this down pat. We're not putting hand on heart and saying every institution or organization is out there providing these services and has all these good stories to tell. We're sharing with you our experiences and our clients' experiences and the patients that we know that have gone through the hospital, for whether it's plastic surgery, cosmetic surgery, dental surgery, etc. But probably more so as Westerners. Because, you know, you, my audience, are mostly Westerners, curious about Vietnam, coming to Vietnam to experience Vietnam. for different things. This is just another thing that we think, you know, if you wanted this kind of thing back in your own country and just couldn't see yourself being able to afford it, but would be, you know, keen to get some more information, you're now going to have access to Kelley and I to speak about this, to help you through the process, to work with the worldwide hospital team. You know, they're really standing beside us in this process to deal with this. And, you know, just, you know, sometimes it's those little nuances, you know, in interpreting things, you know, and we've had a few giggles along the way where, you know, they've looked at us with crazy eyes when we've tried to make or express something that, you know, we said we don't want the cats in our eyes or we don't want, you know, to look like deer in headlights. They don't really know what that means. So, you know, it's making sure that we're not speaking with colloquialisms and, you know, we're making it very clear about what we want so that they can understand. So, you know, I'm just saying that you have access to that. Kelley, I'm mindful of time. I'm just, you know, wanting to Maybe ask if you've got any last words of advice for people, you know, in thinking about this, doing this, do's don'ts. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, I think do your research. Make the choice for you and really block out everyone else's advice of why you're going overseas. Why would you do this overseas? Oh, my goodness. You only ever hear the horror stories like in anything. You only ever hear the negative. You don't very often hear the positives because people just assume things move along nicely. So my experience has been really good. And I would highly recommend it to anybody. I'm going to go home feeling fantastic. There's still, like I said, there'll be still swelling and that will go on for a little bit longer. But all in all, I know there's going to be an end in sight with that and it's going to look great. But make the choices for yourself. Don't listen to outside advice. Kerry Newsome: We were lucky enough to be here and we kind of timed it as well, to be here with another client of ours who had some dental work. You might want to speak to that because that was a great story. Kelley McCarthy: So I worked with an Australian lady. She'd had a lot of personal sadness. She was just all round, unfortunately, a sad lady due to her circumstances. Had 20 teeth left in her mouth that were all rotten. and falling out. The pricing in our country was so far outside of her reach, it was something she couldn't do, so she was really saddened by it all. did a lot of liaising with her and the hospital. We got her a quotation. She jumped on board and has had it done. I was lucky enough to catch up with her here in Vietnam at that stage. And then she will return in six months time to have the actual final porcelain done. But basically, She came over for 14 days and that was just for stitches and everything like that. But by about the fifth day, she walked out of that hospital after massive surgery and based full maxillofacial rebuild of her jawlines. And she walked out with temporary teeth that are giving her a smile. And I caught up with her. And that woman was a different person. She was laughing. She was joking. She had a slinky little dress on. She had her hair down. She looked a million bucks. And she, to see that transformation of firstly meeting her back in Australia. to now was what made it feel worthwhile and why I really want to recommend and share these experiences with people so there's other people out there that can have this transformation and change their lives for the better. Kerry Newsome: Yeah and you know it was probably the combination of the experience with that lady and yourself was kind of the two ticks in the boxes that we just went no. Like this is transformational. People get to change their lives, their well-being and I was talking to another woman just the other day and she was saying in some countries you know these kind of surgeries are part of know, your health insurance, you know, to make sure that your mental health is also aligned to how you look and feel about yourself. And this woman, like, I think the staff said that she was crying tears of happiness or Kelley McCarthy : She was crying and they were panicking that they'd done something wrong. And her daughter was her support person. And her daughter said, no, no, no, these are tears of happiness. And then they all were very happy to see that. But it was night and day, the transformation for her. Just amazing. Kerry Newsome: And it was just great to be a part of that. And we certainly want to open the doors for you to send us your inquiries. Just go to the website whataboutvietnam.com. You can reach out to myself or Kelley. All of the information is there. So yeah, Kel, you've been a real trooper and I'm thrilled that you got what you wanted as well. Kelley McCarthy: Yes. Thank you. Kerry Newsome: Kelley, thank you for being on the show. Everyone, if you have any questions, please feel free to reach out to us. Whilst there is English-speaking administration staff to handle queries at Worldwide, we are kind of sitting in the role as introduction agency to the hospital. Clients that come through What About Vietnam we feel are going to get that extra attention and we will do everything we can in our power to ensure your needs and wants and requests are heard. And obviously, if you need any help in the area of trip planning and want to add in some extra time to make a holiday of it. So, other than that, you might like to join the Facebook group, Facelifts and Dental Vietnam. We'd love to get your inquiries and fill those for you to make sure you have all the information you need to make a wise decision. All the best and thank you for listening.

What About Vietnam S5-E26 Wellness Tourism in Vietnam – A Fresh Take from Hoi An Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. I'm delighted to be here in Hoi An and learning more about wellness and the various modalities springing up all around the township. You know, in my short time here, I've been amazed to find some new and interesting variations on the theme designed to build our strength from yoga classes and even TRX on the beach to learning about what ails us through our hair follicles and a hair follicle analysis and treatments like vitamin C, IV drip procedures. And then following right behind you, you'll find on every single corner, a massage and spa establishment, promising everything starting with pampering and blissful moments of relaxation at very affordable prices. You can possibly afford to do more than one during your stay. And don't miss the new hair baths. They are divine. More on that. And I'll put some links in the show notes. first a little bit about my guest today. As our focus in today's episode is going to be on the peaceful riverbanks of Hoi An at the beautiful Namia River Retreat, joining me is someone I really admire, and that is Michelle Ford. Now, Michelle is not only the general manager of NAMIA, she is also the founding partner and CEO of Lumina Wellbeing, a consultancy shaping integrated wellness experiences across Asia. She actually brings decades of experience to the table, having launched over seven wellness lifestyle hotels in Vietnam and managed 15 luxury spas across Thailand and the Maldives. She's been on the show before, and while we did it remotely, it's been lovely to spend some time with her and do this interview with her on location. So just great to have her on board. You might know her name more from her pioneering work at Fusion Maya. I mean, a location that really hit accolades under her leadership and earned some global notoriety in the time. Michelle is now leading the charge at Namiat River Retreat which opened under her guidance in late 24. So it's a real newbie. With a deep respect for Vietnamese healing traditions and a passion for mindful, sustainable luxury, Michelle is setting new standards for wellness hospitality. Deanne Pham, also on the show as Director of Sales, she will be joining us and I'll be happy to share her extensive background as well a little bit later. I hope you'll settle back. We've got a big show ahead. Wellness is our focus today and if you're looking to build that into your holiday in Vietnam, you're in the right place. So let's get to it. Firstly, over to you, Michelle. Lovely to have you on the show. Great to see you after all this time. Michelle Ford: Thank you for having us. It's so nice to see you in person this time too. Kerry Newsome: Yes, that remote thing is kind of fun, but not quite as nice. I really want to dig deep into this subject and I know you're well positioned to ask these questions. So forgive me if we kind of get a bit deep and meaningful, but I think that's going to help people make some choices about their wellness state in Vietnam. So can you give us just a bit of an overview of the current state of wellness and wellness tourism in Vietnam? Michelle Ford: Yes, I would say it's really on the rise now. There's so much awareness for wellness tourism. I would say almost every project now is interested to integrate wellness in some way into their offerings. And the market is demanding it too. So it's really at its infancy, but on the rise fast. Kerry Newsome: And I think if I was to say that Vietnam probably wouldn't feature as number one on the list of countries in the Southeast Asia region, that'd be fair to say, wouldn't it, at this point? Michelle Ford : Yes, absolutely. We still see much more awareness for tourism and Bali, sorry, not for tourism, for Thailand and Bali. India, you know, all these have a stronger reputation for wellness and retreats and wellness programming, but Vietnam has all of that. It's just not had the same level of awareness and opportunity to showcase what is on offer in terms of Vietnamese wellness. Kerry Newsome : And like, I think if I was to draw on my own personal experience in Vietnam, It is an evolving landscape. I think that wellness and spas and spa resorts and things like that, whilst they were used as words to describe some places in Vietnam, they didn't actually kind of go hand in hand with luxury. They didn't kind of go with a very holistic approach, did they? They were kind of started up and they'd have a spa room and then they'd kind of advocate to be a spa and wellness retreat, where that wasn't really quite the go, was it? Michelle Ford: Yes, I think the whole holistic package didn't come together in the more affordable segment or in the luxury segment. Both had their own strengths and weaknesses. But now you really see with the better awareness of wellness and what it means, the skills on the rise in terms of wellness practitioners. spaces being designed better to accommodate retreats and programs, we really see that we're getting to be in a better position to offer the market the same level of luxury wellness that you can find abroad. Kerry Newsome: And I think that's where the comparison is going to come. I think particularly for the Westerner, as in you're Australians, you're US, you're Europeans, UK, you know, a lot of my listeners are coming from these regions. So their expectations are quite different, I think, to our Vietnamese neighbours. So if you're talking about Japan, Taiwan, Korea, all the rest of it. I think those countries are looking for something different to us. Would that be fair to say? Michelle Ford: Yes, for sure. I think also as our modern lifestyles in the West have got more stressful, more pressured on time, we really value our time away and we really need much more deeper relaxation than before, where a general holiday would have sufficed. Now it's not really enough. And in terms of our current lifestyles, it's already much more modern too, in terms of better food, doing our yoga practices at home, and we really want to continue that on our holidays. Kerry Newsome : So, Michelle, let's explore a little bit more kind of post-pandemic trends. I mean, we can't leave COVID out of the picture. And I do think it influenced some wellness tourism advocacy for Vietnam. And I think even Vietnam tourism saw that there was an opportunity for this genre of travel to grow. What would you say were some of the big factors there? Michelle Ford: Yes, I mean, there's such a strong awareness after COVID in terms of understanding what is wellness and why it's important to us in our lives. In the Vietnamese market, particularly, health and wellness come hand in hand, very strongly focused on types of food and organic, natural food, but also the pollution on the rise in Saigon and places like that. They really value also the fresh air and the nature connection. Other activities linked to wellness like trekking really became super popular, just getting out into nature. In terms of the industry itself, I had attended a hospitality event prior to COVID as a speaker and there was almost no interest in wellness and the wellness was not on the conversation in this event at all. And last week I attended another event in Saigon and every single operator was talking about wellness. Wellness was the main subject of this event. So we're talking about that level of awareness in three years from almost nothing to the main subject on the table. Kerry Newsome : And I find that fascinating because, as you say, if COVID did nothing else, it forced us to evaluate our level of health from a very holistic perspective. And then also, I think when the doors opened, I think people then took great care and consideration around where they were going to go, that they felt safe. And they, you know, because Vietnam kind of weathered the storm relatively well, I think, in terms of other countries. But also seeing Vietnam take that and be able to step up now onto the plate of wellness is just It's really inspiring and I've seen it myself in various locations around Vietnam, not just in Hoi An, but certainly, you know, up in Yen Bai, I was visiting up there recently and beautiful property up there called Garia. And, you know, I've been to Hue and you would be aware, Michelle, of the Alba Resort. And, you know, now here we are in Namia And Hoi An really needs this level of wellness, I think. Even though you may be a little bit remiss by thinking, oh, it's got spas and massage places and all the rest of it, that doesn't actually equal wellness per se, does it? I think people say, oh, it's got spas and you can get a massage and whatever. But for me, when I come to a wellness retreat, I'm looking for something more than just a spa and a massage. I'm looking for a feeling. I know it kind of sounds a bit cliche, but it's that zen, isn't it? It's just that quietness. So talk to us, Michelle, about you know, how you see that being created in Vietnam? Because it's a fairly noisy place. Yes. Michelle Ford: I think Vietnam is really good that we can create this middle way of wellness, if I can call it like that. where it's not a normal resort with just a spa that's kind of a luxury service here and there during your stay, but it's also not a strict regimented retreat that you've chosen for a specific purpose or a need that you have in your life at that time. Having this middle wellness lifestyle orientation, I feel, is something that we can all integrate into our daily lives and be sure that it's something we do while we're on holiday, but also while we're at home. So we gather these practices and things to take with us. So when we do it that way, it's not just the spa, it's the food, it's the philosophy of the team, it's the activities. It has to be a good quality yoga or an excellent quality meditation, not someone that was trained without all the qualifications behind it, for example. and someone that can really hold the space to guide this gentle transformation or give us new awareness that we didn't have back home because we are practicing yoga or meditation already. Kerry Newsome : And I think one of the things that I noticed about coming into NAMIA was, as you say, the level of training and the quality of staff, because it's almost the devil of detail, isn't it? Yes. It's the, you know, like I just absolutely loved, you know, being told about a ritual bath. to help sleeping. Now, being an insomniac, just the fact that that was something that this retreat had been thoughtful enough about to consider, see, that's another aspect to me of wellness. So not only is it a peaceful environment, as you say, with great practitioners, but I think a place that can envelope a very broad spectrum of holistic wellness, I think is going to be a game changer. Michelle Ford: Yes. I think firstly, if you're doing wellness in this way, the philosophy and the training of the staff have to be there because that links very much to our way of life, our mindfulness practices or our sustainability practices, which again, we'll be able to touch on better. And in addition to that, in terms of the wellness products, it's not just selecting a nice scent that's relaxing. It's being more targeted that we're building a program, speaking to the herbalist to understand what is going to help us achieve the goal of deeper rest or better sleep. Kerry Newsome : And where do you see the greatest challenges coming down the path for wellness in Vietnam? Michelle Ford: It is always partially people because the hospitality already has difficulty in some way to attract and retain people. But I think on the other hand, there's opportunities for those willing to invest in the people because if we, for example, train newcomers to the wellness industry, we will get them on a path that set them for life. We have to invest more time, energy and resources in the beginning, but long term, we have a much greater impact, not just on their lives, but also how they bring it to others. Kerry Newsome: And as you say, I mean, The challenge with staff I don't think is unique. I would say most hotels and resorts that I get to stay at, and I've got to know over the years, I think have all found, and especially since COVID, there was a lot of people that left the industry as a result of COVID and chose other careers. So that kind of left a bit of a gap, I think. And finding you know, people to bring back or new people to start investing. And then, you know, where is the schooling coming from? It's got to be coming from organizations, as you say, that are willing to invest in those people to train them because, you know, there's there's no actual major tourism training and, you know, F&B kind of stuff available in Vietnam. Michelle Ford : There's starting to be, you know, in terms of one hotel school in Fukuoka as well. But I would say hoteliers have to invest on the ground with their people. We have to start where we are and then the rest will take place. And it becomes so critical because people are joining for these values. And if you are not showing that you are living by these values, they don't want to join also. You know, so we have to really understand the mindset shift of people that want to join. They want to know that they're connected to this value and this vision. Kerry Newsome : So when I'm looking to advise my clients about a wellness package or a wellness stay in Vietnam, what should I be telling them that they should be looking for as far as a minimum standard that they should look for? And what kind of price levels are they having to expect that they need to pay to get that? Michelle Ford: Maybe I have to think for a second. Kerry Newsome : Okay, that's okay. Maybe I'll put it another way. So, when I'm talking to my clients, which as I said, my audience is global, so when I'm doing trip plans for people and bringing them over, some will ask about a a small chunk of that stay that they will want to go and stay at a wellness retreat. They want to break up the trip. They're coming maybe for 20 days or something like that. And they want to have three to five days where they just want to get away from it and they want to spoil themselves with a retreat. So what should they be looking for? What should I say to them that is a minimum standard that they should expect as a wellness retreat? Michelle Ford: I think a cohesive program, you know, not just the spa services and then you can have the meal in the restaurant off the a la carte and so on. I think it should be a designed program or package that includes the meals, the food, the activities, the treatments, all under one theme and one targeted goal. Because without that, the experience will feel a little bit ad hoc. Kerry Newsome : So, so that I understand, so you are saying that a room rate actually comes with an all-inclusive kind of activity package, which it essentially does here in Namia, which I liked. And the reason I liked it, and I don't know whether it's appropriate to say this, But then I have the choice to say no to any of it, but I have the choice to say yes to everything without feeling I've got to put my hand in my pocket again. So that's a luxury in itself. You know you've paid for your room rate and appreciating the fact that it's probably more expensive than you would pay in an average hotel. But the fact that it comes with, you know, your beautiful breakfast, you know, your ritual bath, your access, free access to the gym, you know, your lovely spa treatment and all those things without thinking about it. I can just leisurely take all that in without the fear of, oh, can I afford that? Or, you know, should we do that or that kind of thing? Michelle Ford: And you know, money is one part, but the other part is also this feeling, this like inner guilt that we carry to take that time for ourselves. That is. And now that it's kind of assigned to you, there's something that releases that inner guilt that, can I take 90 minutes now? You know, I should spend it with the family or I should do this. You know, all of that is released and you feel more interested and willing to join something with a peace of mind. Kerry Newsome: I totally agree. I don't know why we're guilty about looking after ourselves or treating ourselves, but we are. And I hope we can inspire people to rethink that through the show. But lovely to have you on, Michelle. Is there something else you'd like to kind of share with my listeners about the wellness spectrum in Vietnam so that we can wrap up? Michelle Ford: get in while you can, because it's going to become more and more and more popular. And what it's offering right now is very fresh, very authentic, and very unique. Kerry Newsome : And I think one of the things, if I can just add to that, I think there is a feeling that Vietnam really wants to impress. They really want to step up to the plate. So there's no complacency. You know, it's the new kid on the block, really, in as far as comparisons to other Southeast Asian countries like we talked about with Bali and Thailand. And I think the fact that it does want to impress means that they are well tuned to go the extra mile. And I think that's what I'm seeing. Michelle Ford: Absolutely. When Vietnam starts a movement, it moves fast. They've got the resources and the people to make it happen. So I believe Vietnam will be a major player in the wellness industry in the future. Kerry Newsome : Michelle, thanks for coming on the show. It's been lovely to chat and we will share more about NAMIA because I'm going to bring the lovely Deanne on and we're going to dig deep into NAMIA. As we continue our deep dive into the wellness spirit of Namia River Retreat, I'm delighted to introduce another key voice behind the magic. Deanne Pham, Director of Sales at Namia joins us. Deanne brings an inspiring mix of sharp commercial insight and soulfulness to the show and Her wisdom in this role is quite expansive. She's had 15 years across luxury hospitality, inbound travel, international media, and destination management. She's played an essential role in shaping NAMIA's market presence. I first met Deanne in her role at the Alba Wellness Retreat. So it's a welcome and joyful surprise to meet up with her again at NAMIA and have time with her here on location. I think what really makes Deanne's perspective special is her holistic background. She's not just a sales leader, she's also a certified yoga teacher, a Reiki master, and a holistic health coach. Her lived experience in wellness allows her to connect Namia's vision with what today's mindful travelers are truly seeking. And I think she's got some good homegrown instincts to that. She has this incredible ability to bridge the practical and the spiritual and I can't wait for you to hear how she weaves those together in today's show. So let's welcome Dien the program. Now, Deanne, it's great to have you on the program. It's been a while since we've chatted. Last time I got together with you, we were talking about another wellness retreat, which is called ALBA and it's in Hue. And I had a divine stay there. Oh, that's probably pre-COVID. And to me, that was kind of my early journey into wellness in Vietnam. So, you know, being knew with the podcast and I was only a couple of years into the podcast at that stage. I felt I had to get my head around wellness. I could see the change coming and I could see development everywhere and it was a great start. But now here we are in Hoi An with Namia and great to see you now in the role of Director of Sales. So let's dig deep. Deanne, how does Namia Retreat cater to kind of the ever-changing needs and expectations of travellers? Because, you know, let's face this, you know, us travellers can be demanding at times, you know, what are they looking for in a wellness retreat at Namia? Dien Pham : Yeah, when I experienced both, let's say, a comprehensive and intensive wellness retreat and also now at Namia, I think that nowadays people looking when they come to the wellness retreat, let's say Namia River retreat, it's more lifestyle retreat rather than hardcore. When I come to some wellness show and expo, and people a little bit hesitate about hardcore health, then they have to stay disconnected. Or when they have to strictly go vegan, I mean it's very good, but to the majority of people, It's more about lifestyle wellness and they can be also be educational, very light. They can bring something home to start and transform their lifestyle. So Namya Refugees have a tackle on that angle of the needs of people to be on both relaxation and culture, but still experience something about lifestyle wellness and they can take home. start to restart their life in the ways be easier and more wellness-oriented. Kerry Newsome : And are there specific experiences that they're looking for that they have highlighted that they really want to experience here? Dien Pham : I would say in terms of the wellness, the first thing is the traditional Vietnamese herbology or called Tuoc Nam. So that is inclusive and 90 minutes wellness journey every day inspired by Vietnamese herbology . and also all the mindful moments, also inspired by Vietnamese ways of mindfulness. For example, silent walk, inspired by Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh. The lantern ritual, very much inspired by Hoi An lantern releasing. Also Vietnamese Zung Sing or Tai Chi, the way that Vietnamese people practice in the morning around the Hoan Kiem Lake. For some cultural experience, like morning guided bicycle trail to see the old town in the morning, which is very authentic, sitting by the river, have some coffee. So that is the experience I really want to highlight. And last but not least, the Hoi An, the Two Bone River is very beautiful and stunning with the sunset. And we offer complimentary sunset cruise all the way down to Old Town. And you can see beautiful, stunning and peaceful sunset with some cocktail and canapé is the iconic experience you shouldn't miss when you stay at Namia. Kerry Newsome : And what's the kind of feedback that you're getting from clients after they have their stay and they experience some of these things? What are they saying to you? Dien Pham : One key word to pop up in my head is quality sleep. Kerry Newsome: I can relate to that. Dien Pham: Yeah, because we incorporate the thing that the environment of Namia is surrounded by the river, which already make you feel impregnated and calm and combined with the quality of linen on the bed and the atmosphere and all the treatment about Vietnamese herbology. and also good food. And I got some people said that I sleep like a baby for a long time, especially some busy people, some people traveling, jet lag, or busy thinking like us. And they can be able to switch off, reset in very short time and have quality sleep. And that also combined with the sleep yoga as well. Kerry Newsome: Are you targeting a particular audience? Are you targeting a particular age group? Talk to us about the people that you're attracting. Who's coming to NAMIA? Dien Pham: I would say there are two major targeting audience in terms of demographic. The first one is something people more mature, let's say from 30 plus, wealthy and well-educated and very strong focus on sustainability as well. So they are busy people, well paid, but sometimes they get very little me time, so they're looking for some retreat that they can reset, retract, and rejuvenate as well. The second audience, or let's say targeting client, I think that even now with young trend setter, I mean, we're talking about Gen Z, the people now are so young, but they catch the trend. They want to stay something they can look after themselves when they still can stay hybrid and working when they travel. So they love something funky. but still sustainable, but also photogenic as well, and some well-tech in terms of the well-being. Kerry Newsome: Okay, so this is a good segue into talking about sustainability. How does NAMIA integrate sustainability into its wellness programs? Dien Pham : We think when we're talking about client needs and the journey, and we always see that wellness, luxury and sustainability, it's three very crucial angle and go harmony with each other. In terms of the sustainability at NAMIA, we will divide in terms of economical sustainability, social and environment. For that, we will practice, like eliminate all the single-yield plastic within the resort and set up different refilling water station in the resort. For social, for environment, we use all the eco-friendly cleaning supplier. Try to good for the team, good for the environment, but also for the guest feeling. We also recruit, I think, 89% of the local staff to really bring the livelihood and the career opportunity for the local people. And with all the beautiful product setting in the spa area, in the breakfast and in the area, we try to go as much hyper-local supplier as possible. to really showcase what the best we have in the local area to showcase to our guests and that get a feeling of very authentic. Kerry Newsome : I must admit yesterday I was really impressed with my time in the spa, not just about the spa, but the use of your local herbs and the infusion of those local herbs into the spa treatment. So like when this lovely girl broke those leaves of that beautiful basil and all those, the fragrances, the aroma was just so enriching, that aroma kind of stayed with me like nothing else has whenever I've kind of been in these environments. So I'm really impressed with that. And as you say, I think the harmony that you've been able to create with the villas and the closeness to the river and the foliage and the beautiful greenery setting, You know, you do feel like you are a world within a world in Hoi An. And, you know, I'm a regular visitor to Hoi An as as you would know. So I've been coming for probably 14 years. So it's it's kind of crazy to me because. As many times as I've been here, I don't think I've felt like I've been in Hoi An but out of Hoi An. but I'm still in Hoi An while I'm here in Namia. So I can access it very easily, which is great. But I don't feel like I've got the hubba hubba of Hoi An right on my doorstep. You know, I'm not going to have karaoke start up next door or all that kind of thing. So it is delightful in that. And I think that's a joy for your senses as a person. And, you know, as you say, you're attracting that busy person and certainly a lot of my listeners are busy, well-educated, you know, above that 40 range where their careers are on fire and they've got, you know, demanding families and, you know, they're looking for an escape. So, you know, it's great that you now offer this so close to the beautiful town of Hoi An and everyone can access that. What would you say, you know, would be key for people to experience at Namia that as a minimum thing, they have to at least do this to get the best out of Namia? What would that be? Just the spa treatment or is it something else? Dien Pham : Let me think for a minute. Kerry Newsome : That's OK. I mean, I would I'll tell you what I would pick. I'm going to definitely do the bath ritual. because that's something I have not experienced. And maybe you can explain how it works, but from what I understand is the bath has some herbs in the bath and you enjoy a tea with it. Is that right? Dien Pham: The bath and the tea is separate. So one day you can have a bath soak ritual and the other day can be sleep enhancement tea. So that not go pair up but separate alternatively. Kerry Newsome : I might pair it up just because I'm an insomniac. I need a lot of help in sleep. Dien Pham : Yeah, but when talking about apart from some key thing you shouldn't miss, so that I would say the evening in-room ritual and emphasize that is the herbal bath ritual. I can spend a week to talk about that because I keep talking with Michelle. Let's say our Heartful daily life ritual and I have been experiencing that since my childhood because We really want to bring something very authentic in our Vietnamese well-being ritual and introduce to our guests. Because in my childhood, whenever we get sick, get cold, stomach upset, my mom always have extra herb remedy ready to make decoction for us or to make the bath so we can soak our entire body into the steam with the herb scents beautifully. And for me, the bath ritual is not only way we're looking our body, but also our soul, because my mom passed all the compassion, the love to us. And then when we get sick, we serve into that, we serve into the recipe of the heartfelt care, and we recover very quickly. And that's the way we try to transform our daily ritual to the guests also. And I hope our guests can feel that when they enjoy everyday bath ritual at Namya River Retreat in the private pool villa. Kerry Newsome : And would you have like a memorable experience or a feedback from a client that stick in your mind that they really enjoyed? Is there someone or an experience of someone that they shared with you about their stay that you can recall? Dien Pham : Suddenly, I remember the moment in tears about one of the clients, one of the ladies. She accidentally got cold when she traveled and the stomach upset. And then we tried our best with our nurse coming to look after her, give her some of the facial reflexology and some electrical stuff as well. And then she recovered and she got all the treatment, she got all the herbal congee. And then when she checked out, she said that usually she complained when she got sick on traveling. But now she feels so grateful because without that, she didn't know that is how efficient and so beautiful is our Vietnamese herbology treatment is so efficient. And also she has been looking after by all amazing people that she feel as a family. And she checked out in tears. And then after one month, she go back to Vietnam. She come back to say hello, everyone. So that moment really touched our heart that when we serve by our heart with all the emotion and the care we get and we didn't expect anything back that how Vietnamese people and Vietnamese hospitality is and that make us very unique compared to other culture as well. Kerry Newsome : And I think traveling, whether you like it or not, especially long haul travelers, I think it's something that I'm most careful when I'm doing trip plans is to remind people about the rigors of traveling. Traveling is quite harsh on the body and on our minds, et cetera, as well. But I think people, if you are thinking about a stay in Vietnam, I think you would be wise to incorporate some level of wellness and some kind of stay like this, just to go home feeling like you are recharged, not feeling like you've rung out and you've been everywhere in Vietnam and ticked all the boxes, but like you get home and you're exhausted and you haven't got that good feeling. You know, for me, I've always tried to go home feeling better than when I left. And, you know, I have to be well aware that whilst I've wanted to see a lot of Vietnam and there's so much to see in Vietnam that you want to do, try and incorporate just those few days, two to three days probably even. If you've got more time, more time. And I've got some clients that spent four or five days and wish they'd stayed seven. You know, I think everyone is unique, but I think incorporating some wellness into your stay in Vietnam will bring you back to Viet more times than, you know, your rush, rush, rush, tick the boxes, top to bottom, bottom to top type tours, which Vietnam was very characteristic of certainly leading up to COVID. But Michelle and I talked about post-COVID and I think we are a changing landscape. Dan, can you share with us where people can find NAMIA? So your Instagram, you're on Facebook. Yeah. Dien Pham: Yeah, so people can find us on Instagram, Facebook, on LinkedIn, by type Namia River Retreat. And we are so delighted to share all the meaningful and beautiful moment on social media. Kerry Newsome : Excellent. Is there anything that I didn't ask you that I should have asked you about Namia that I should be telling everyone that's listening. Dien Pham : Yeah, I think that's short and sweet enough to stick in the memory. Kerry Newsome: Okay. Thanks. Thanks, Deanne. Look, Vietnam's always on the move, evolving, shifting, growing. It makes it hard to predict exactly where wellness traveler will land next, but I'll tell you this. Vietnam is climbing the ranks fast. And when I say wellness travel, I'm talking about real rejuvenation, mind, body and soul. What's really elevating it now is the luxury factor, stunning resorts, top tier service, incredible food and a wealth of healing treatments delivered by people who really know their stuff. What each of us looks for in wellness is different. It's deeply personal, it's shaped by where we come from, our culture, our past travel experiences and of course our budget. So what works for me might be totally different from what works for you. That's why it really pays to stay curious, ask questions, dig a little deeper, do your homework, and most importantly, stay open to new experiences. As I said, be aware of those fresh herbs, that local feel, that authentic cuisine, and those beautiful warm smiles. If you don't get them, you're in the wrong place. you might just discover something incredible, as I said, a world within a world. I'll share some more details about my experiences in Namia and in Hoi An as I've experienced it this time. And I can honestly say I'm really impressed and truly loving my time. Thanks, Dien.Thanks, Michelle, for being on the show. Michelle Ford : Thank you so much, Kerry, for having us. And so lovely to be enjoying this with this stunning view of the river today. Kerry Newsome : It's just a gorgeous day, isn't it? Thank you. I'd like to extend a very heartfelt thank you to NAMIA River Retreat for sponsoring this episode. While NAMIA is a valued sponsor, I want to assure you that the thoughts and insights I've shared throughout the show reflect my own genuine experiences and observations As always, my goal is to bring you honest, inspiring stories to help you make the most of your travels in Vietnam and more particularly help you make wise choices. So, I hope you've enjoyed the program and I look forward to bringing you many more in the future.

What About Vietnam - S5-E5 The famous Hai Van Pass experience: Insights from a seasoned traveller 00:37 - 02:18 Kerry Newsome Xin chào and welcome to What About Vietnam. Today I'm actually sitting in rainy Hoi An, but I've got the opportunity to have some time and talk to Chris Mooney. Now Chris and I have crossed paths many times and been, you know, just trying to get the moons to align to do this interview because he's going to be talking about quite a famous area called the Hai Van Pass. Just a little bit about Chris. Chris was born in New Zealand. I believe he's still an All Blacks fan. Lived in Australia for 28 years, mainly in Newcastle. For most of his adult life, he says he's been involved in media in one capacity or another. And, you know, since about the age of 20, he's been on air hosting radio shows, doing voiceovers and working for some major brands in that field. So, you know, we've got someone on today who really knows their stuff and certainly having lived here now in Vietnam and in this region, in the An Bang and Hoi An region, having done the Hai Van Pass many times, he's got some great insights into just understanding that area and what it involves in visiting that area. So we're going to get into that in more detail. Chris, welcome to the show and why not for all our listeners just give some background to yourself and how you arrived in Hoi An and your interest in Hai Van. 02:20 - 03:36 Chris Moonie Originally, I'm from New Zealand. Spent 28 years there, then 28 years in Australia. And I first came here in May of 2013 with my middle boy, who was 18 at the time. Loved Vietnam, thought there was something special about Hoi An. A lady that I met here, I also felt there was something special about her as well. And I went back to Australia to Newcastle and then I was back in Hoi An six weeks later and living here about 22 months after that. So I've been here now for eight plus years and living in An Bang, which is a very small, what was a fishing village up until The tourism boomed here. It's only 850 metres long, it's 350 metres wide at its widest point, but if you have a look at the area, the road from the traffic lights on the main road to the beachfront, the main road through the village, and the beachfront restaurants, there's over 130 restaurants, and that doesn't even take into account all of those great restaurants that you find down all the laneways and so on. So I love Unbung, it's quiet, but you have loads of choice and within four or five minutes walking of wherever you are. 03:37 - 04:00 Kerry Newsome And I'm glad you point that out because An Bang kind of sprung up after Cua Dai kind of got washed out and it's currently kind of sandbagged. And literally being as resilient as Vietnamese are, they kind of picked up everything that was at Cua Dai and moved it to An Bang. And that was maybe 10 years ago. 04:00 - 04:43 Chris Moonie Yeah, right about that time when I first got here, but there was very little here at that time to cater for tourists. With Cua Dai itself though, it's recovered just recently. There's some Dutch technology that's been used in building what is termed a sea dike, and then sand has been dredged up onto the beach, so the beach is the best that it's been for a long time. And I think that area will really kick off. With Hoi An, the ancient town area, there are only two main roads that go to a beach. So you've got Cua Dai Road, you're about seven kilometres out of town to get to that beach, whereas with An Bang, you're only about three, three and a half kilometres away. 04:43 - 05:00 Kerry Newsome Correct. Now, Chris, you've got a bit of a background which is going to help this podcast immensely in radio and public speaking, etc. So maybe just give us a snippet of that so everyone can appreciate where you're coming from. 05:00 - 05:23 Chris Moonie Yeah, sure. I started off with Radio New Zealand. I had 10 years there and then relocated to Australia. and had a lot of years there in radio and also doing what is termed house voice work for Channel 9 up in Newcastle. I was told very early on that I had a great face for radio so I'm pretty much a natural I think. 05:25 - 06:00 Kerry Newsome Yeah, I'm sure they're saying that about me in the podcast. So that suits me fine. I'd rather be behind the mic and not seen than rather at the front of it. So we're together on that. Today, Chris, we're going to be talking about the Hai VanPass. And this is something I really wanted to go into with you because your knowledge is so extensive. So maybe we kick off with talking about just how It took the attention of the BBC and the Top Gear crew back in 2008. So, I'll let you kind of lead off from there. 06:01 - 07:22 Chris Moonie Yeah, the BBC Top Gear program back in 2008 had a Vietnam feature and had the boys, they were riding motorbikes from Saigon up to Hanoi. One of them had a painting on their motorbike, one of them had a sailing ship, the other one had a ceramic vase from memory. Going back quite a few years ago, I was actually at Hai Van Pass itself and I saw a couple of guys there and one had a sailing ship and one had a painting, so they were doing the whole top gear thing over Hai Van Pass. But it's something that I did on my second trip to Vietnam in 2013, going up to Hue, and back in those days the road was pretty treacherous. It's been improved dramatically since then, but it still does have its challenges, and particularly if you're not somebody who's done a lot of riding. In the last 10 years, I've done well over 100,000 kilometres on local roads all over the country. And it's certainly very different to what you'd experience in a Western country because the Vietnamese have a different rhythm to the traffic and you don't want to be doing a bossa nova while they're doing a waltz because it gets very, very untidy. 07:23 - 08:25 Kerry Newsome And I'm glad you mentioned that because there is a rhythm and there is an element of organized chaos. And there's also an aspect of respect for one another on the roads. I see a lot of that I don't see in my own country, which is, you know, if there's a guy and he's kind of on a bike and he's got something on the back that is three times the width of him, You know, cars, other bike riders, et cetera, will just kind of veer around him, make sure he's got space and keep going on. So, you know, tourist-wise and tourists on bikes probably make me more nervous than Vietnamese on bikes. But I think it's worth mentioning and look, I could do a whole podcast just on bike riding. But today, I'm nailing you on Hai Van Pass. So, why would you go to Hai Van Pass? 08:25 - 10:12 Chris Moonie Hai Van Pass is just a beautiful ride. I've done it 40, 50 plus times and it's a lovely day trip. as a loop out of Hoi An, it's probably a couple of hundred kilometres or so. And you have the pass itself, then you come down to Lang Co, stop where the railway line comes over the road, go around to the west side of Lang Co Lagoon. That's an area where a lot of oysters are grown. So when you're riding along you'll see a lot of stakes in the water and the oysters are grown on tyres, motorbike tyres, scooter tyres that have been cut in half. So they're put on a line at about four or five hundred apart, and the oysters are grown, they take nine or ten months to grow. If you're travelling along that road, quite often you'll see tyres on the road, and they have been put there so that the vehicles will run over them to break off the residue and clean the tyres. So it's that sort of approach that you'd never be able to do where we come from. But, you know, there's some thinking outside the square that goes on. Also on that side of the Lang Co Lagoon, there's also the Dream Springs, which are fabulous. It's a series of cascades. It's water straight out of the hills. It's very, very fresh. But on a long, hot, dusty ride, there's absolutely nothing better than spending half an hour, 45 minutes there. It's very rustic, just bamboo huts. You have a tarpaulin to get changed behind. Typically Vietnamese with the karaoke going on, it's just great fun. 10:13 - 10:53 Kerry Newsome It sounds super. Is there like a start and finish? Like, you know, where does it go from and where does it finish? Has it got like a segment of the road or a span of road in kilometres, et cetera, that actually applies to the Hai Van Pass, because when I've done it, I've kind of tried to measure, I think this is where we're coming into it, and as you say, you're looking at that beautiful view of Lang co which is absolutely pretty as, but then I'm not quite sure when I've got out of it, or if I'm still in it, as in the pass, as in Hai Van Pass. 10:54 - 12:26 Chris Moonie Well Hai Van Pass itself, you've got the fortifications up the top and that was originally erected there by the Dai Viet or the North Vietnamese and it was a crossing point between North Vietnam and Central Vietnam. The gate up there, the brick gateway, dates back to 1341. currently that area is closed and the Hue government is rebuilding that area as it was back in the day. So I can only see it getting busier up there than what it is now to become its own tourist attraction or a tourist attraction in its own right and I'm very happy to see that because unfortunately the locals haven't taken care of that area and the buildings have gone into a great deal of decay in the 10 or so years since I first went up there. So to see that area being recreated I think is fantastic. The road trip itself from the very bottom of the hill, and you're only about 400 metres high, up to the top of the other pass itself is about 7.5 kilometres. That's where the best view is and then down the northern side there's a lot of bush, a lot of trees, so the views are a lot more restricted and that part is about nine and a half kilometres down to the bottom of the hill as such. 12:27 - 12:41 Kerry Newsome All right, well we touched on some history there. Is there anything more behind the history of that area that is worth just kind of taking into consideration? You mentioned the Viet Cong. 12:41 - 13:11 Chris Moonie Given its height, the French used that area to install bunkers. So there's bunkers to the left and to the right. pillboxes on the right hand side next to the brick archway and there's the one that is furthest north that you can frame a really nice photo of Lanko through the gunslit. So that area there was first used for fortifications in that respect by the French and then the Americans during the American War. 13:14 - 13:22 Kerry Newsome And also, for me, probably begs the question, are you better off to do it north to south or south to north? 13:22 - 13:40 Chris Moonie North to south. So that's from Hue to Da Nang. And the reason for that is that the view is in front of you. If you're riding up the hill, you have to look over your shoulder to see the view. If you're coming the other way down towards Hoi An or Da Nang, it's right in front of you. 13:41 - 14:21 Kerry Newsome And interesting to think about time of year because I talk a lot about this on the show in the sense of it is a lot about timing of the year in Vietnam from north to south the weather differs quite incredibly. Do you have a kind of a preference for when's a good time of the year? And I just want to add to that also, you know, what time of day is a good time to go? So time of year and, you know, early morning or late evening or sunset, you know, I'm kind of steering you that way. 14:21 - 15:38 Chris Moonie As far as time of day is concerned, it really just depends on the day itself. And if you're going to have a hot day, you go earlier. As I said, if you're doing a couple of hundred kilometers, you're looking at an eight-hour day anyway. You want to stop somewhere along the way and have lunch. So if you're leaving at seven or eight out of Hoi An, What I do is I go up the coastal road. In fact, Google Maps will show you the quickest route, which is through Danang. And it may be quicker on the ground, but it's not quickest time-wise. So because of all of the traffic lights and the traffic through Danang, it really does slow you down. You can save yourself half an hour each way by going the coastal road and then turning left, going up the first of the seven bridges over the Hun River and Danung. The big suspension bridge, you come off there, you get to an area which is called Namo, or which the Americans called Red One, and that was where they disembarked back in 1965. Then you just continue on the way, and it gives you a really good scope of how big Da Nang City is. There's only 1.3 million people there, but it's a very, very large city. It sprawls a long, long way. 15:38 - 17:06 Kerry Newsome Yeah, and it's a good point to talk about access. I've done it a couple of ways. I've done it north to south and south to north. It's not going to give me the views, but I've looked at doing the trip just from Hue to Da Nang via the train, because the views from there, I imagine, are just lovely from that region. But you're not getting that height, so obviously you're going to miss out there. We talked about transport and, you know, I get a lot of families that I look after and do trips for. So, ideally, you know, a bike is not convenient for them. Do you need to do it by bike or can you arrange another way to do it? And just my second question onto that is, Are you best to go with a guide? And I'm mentioning that because I think the first couple of times I did it, I was clueless. I just really didn't understand the spectrum of its history and just really what it meant. So, you know, I stood up there, I saw the view and I went, wow. I literally got back in the car and went back and then I've learned about it since. Do you think it would be better to go with a guide, and can we do another way of accessing it other than on a bike? 17:06 - 18:04 Chris Moonie You can. Just going back to the train, I have done it by train coming out of Dong Hoi when I went up to Phong Nha for the caves. And your views are very restricted. There's a lot of bush, and other than that, the windows are all badly scratched, so you can't take a decent photo. And that's because of the bush that you're passing by. In addition to that, you have huge bundles of cables and they're at about eye level. So your view is greatly restricted. So you can go by bus, car, they'll go up through the tunnels normally. Train obviously is a coastal route, but not one of the better train trips that I've been on in Vietnam and I've done a lot of travel on trains here. I love it. The bike just gives you a different sense of freedom. But for a family, I mean, sure, hire a car, hire a 16-seater, they're cheap enough. You can do it that way, no problems at all. Wind the windows down. 18:04 - 18:13 Kerry Newsome And you can stop then, can't you? You can ask the driver to stop at points and take vantage points, etc. But would you get a guide as well? 18:15 - 19:18 Chris Moonie Look, either that or I can tell people where to stop. If anybody wants to contact me, I'm quite happy to share my knowledge with them. All I've done with quite a number of people is just provide drop pins on Google Maps. If you don't have local data, you can download an offline version and that works just fine. But there are specific areas that you do really need to stop to get the best out of your day. And it's the sort of thing that you learn as you go along. A lot of people come here and they come here just once. So I'm quite happy to share my knowledge to enhance people's visits here. A lot of the riding that I've done has been with the original Hoi An Easy Rider, a good mate of mine called Tong Do Van. And he is a Hoi An local, also spent a lot of time down at Dalat with the family after the war. And I've learned a substantial amount from Tom just through going on rides with him and when my friends come over. 19:21 - 20:01 Kerry Newsome Absolutely, that sounds like a great idea. I think for my guests and for my listeners, I think having a chat with me, reach out directly, happy to steer you in the right direction. You've heard from Chris, also you can get access to him directly and I'll put links in the show notes so that you can do that very easily. Let's just talk a little bit, Chris, about, you know, like, what do you need to take on a trip day or a day trip pack for this kind of adventure? And, you know, what do we need to be prepared for? 20:01 - 23:25 Chris Moonie OK, so a standard day trip via Hai Van Pass for me is to go up to the tunnels. load the bikes onto a flatbed truck because you're not allowed to go through the tunnels on the bike. Then you get into a small coach and you follow the flatbed through to Lanco. You take the bikes off and on you go. The reason I do that is twofold. One, it saves you half an hour each way. And in addition to that, as I said before, the best view is coming north to south. And there's no reason to do Hain Van Pass twice. Not in my view anyway, because at eight hours on a bike, I'm sure you've got a back rest, but for some people it can just be too long if you're out for nine, nine and a half hours. So once we're through the tunnels, we've got our bikes, we go up through Lang Co. On the western side, you'll go to Dream Springs, have a swim there for 45 minutes or so. come back out and depending on the time of the year you can also do a beach ride of about five, six kilometres up the top end of the beach and then you come back down and what I do is I check the tide times prior to going so we can work in that beach ride and then we'll come back down we'll have some lunch and then after lunch head off up the other pass And when you get to the top, you can stop Cafe in the Clouds, which is the last of the sites at the market on the right-hand side. has a good view of some of the switchbacks that you use, and then over the northern side you've also got a great view down over Lang co. After that, only probably about 300 metres down, there's a very sharp right-hand turn. stop there and take a view, take a photo of the view there which is incredible. You come down the southern side and about two and a half kilometres from the top you have the Big Boulder which is quite obvious and you can either take photos there or there is what I've called Hanging Rock in Australian. I've seen that. And that just gives you a fabulous view. I have a friend there, a Vietnamese friend, Minh, and her cafe is called Minh Guitar. And during COVID, she got the engineers and she's built the cafe out over the edge of the cliff, but also has built some steps down to what looks like a big whitish tongue made of rock. And it makes for a spectacular photo. It does. After that, there's a couple of viewpoints on the way down that you stop at. And as I say, the views on your left hand side in front of you. And then you're off home. I would normally stop after you come over the suspension bridge. On the right-hand side, there's the fishing fleet that anchors in there. And you've got thousands of these blue and yellow Vietnamese fishing boats moored there. Then you do a U-turn, and then you take a run back along the river, just to give you a different perspective of Da Nang, rather than using the coastal road again. 23:28 - 23:42 Kerry Newsome When I sit here and I listen to you describe it, I'm fascinated because, as I said, I have done it a couple of times and I think I missed about 60% of this. 23:42 - 24:02 Chris Moonie Because you don't have that trained eye. Having local knowledge but also a local guide is a big thing. And I know many people who have come down from Hue and they've either missed Hai Van Pass or I've talked to them about doing Hai Van and I'm listening to them and thinking, you know, you didn't do all the good stuff. 24:02 - 24:08 Kerry Newsome Yes, absolutely. And that's why I wanted to do this show with you because I'm pretty sure I've missed 90%. 24:10 - 24:40 Chris Moonie But what I put it down to is that the Vietnamese look at things in a different way, and simply because what they see is very everyday to them, and to us, it's way outside the parameters that we see in the countries that we come from. So to get the most out of you, you just need to have somebody who has that local knowledge but also comes from overseas and know what is going to have a wow factor to tourists. 24:41 - 25:09 Kerry Newsome All right, like any final tips, Chris, for people like must do things to watch out for, you know, anything that we should leave with my listeners so that, I mean, as I said, I'm going to put links to everything. They're going to be able to access yourself and be able to reach out to you directly. But just, you know, anything last minute you'd like to leave for my audience. 25:09 - 26:42 Chris Moonie As far as the ride itself is concerned, you'd need to pack a light jacket. I wear shoes when I'm riding trips like that. So light jacket because you're 400 meters up. Also take into account Hai Van is Vietnamese for sea mist or sea cloud. But having done it as many times as I have, I've only ever had one occasion where the view has just been whited out. You also need a towel, your swimmers if you're going to Dream Springs, and also a decent sized plastic bag to put everything into when you're finished. Other than that, what to watch out for apart from the scenery? Goats, cows, and petrol tankers. The petrol tankers are not allowed into the tunnel. On the right up the south side, one of the first things you'll see is the big refinery. So you see the tankers moored offshore, and there's a big refinery both sides of the road. So what you'll find is, because the petrol tankers aren't allowed in the tunnels for obvious reasons, There's quite a few of them on the road up and down the pass. And with the big switchbacks, quite often you can be coming round a corner and you'll find that there's a tanker on your side of the road because it is that sharp of a turn. So you need to be wary, you need to be careful, you need to have your wits about you. 26:44 - 27:38 Kerry Newsome And that's working on the basis that you're going to be riding a bike. There is the option to sit on the back of a bike of an experienced rider. And personally, that would be my choice to do it that way. But as you say, you still need to be cognizant of the fact it's an eight hour day. And you know, I've done a fair bit of bike riding in my day and you know, at my stage of life, four to five hours is kind of my limit now. But for, you know, the fit, out there, the adventurous, et cetera, and if you time it with these stops, I think mentioning these stops has been crucial because, you know, if you stop for lunch or you go for a swim or, you know, you can kind of, and you're taking lots of photos, of course, I think that breaks it up and that's kind of what takes up the day. But it's still a, it's a long day, isn't it? 27:39 - 28:48 Chris Moonie It can be. And as you say, the breaks are important. So out of Hoi An, you're looking at about an hour before you get off and you load the bikes onto the shuttle. Then after that, only about a 10 minute or so ride to Dream Springs, have a decent break there. Then maybe a beach run back for lunch and have a break there. Then after that, that's the long slog that we like on the bike, where you're up and down the pass, but you've got several times that you'll stop on the southern side. So you stop at the top, you'll stop a few hundred metres down for that big sharp bend, which gives you a great view. Another two and a half kilometres down, and you're stopping at Minh's cafe near Hanging Rock. Then after that is the longest ride, where you're going down the pass and stopping once you get over the suspension bridge. And then from there, back down along the riverside to Hoi An, another 45 minutes or so. So in real terms, 45 minutes to an hour are the longest hauls before you have a break. 28:49 - 29:23 Kerry Newsome That's right up my speed then. That's perfect for me. Chris, I just want to say thank you again for being on the show. I think this episode has been extremely informative about Hai Van Pass. There's really not a lot out there about this area and let me tell you some of the images that I've seen that Chris has on Hanging Rock. I'm going to ask him if I can use and show you some of those. And obviously put the details. Just want to say thanks Chris for coming on the show. 29:23 - 29:26 Chris Moonie I hope to see you back in town again. No longer next time. 29:26 - 29:35 Kerry Newsome I wish, I wish. I'm in my 90 days so I'm really loving it this time having a little bit of extensive time. But thank you again for coming on the show. 29:37 - 29:38 Chris Moonie Safe travels. Thank you. Fun yeah. Really appreciate the opportunity. Thanks Kerry.

What About Vietnam– S5- E23 Pushing Limits, Finding Magic – Caving and Trekking in Phong Nha’s Tu Lan Cave System Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. I thought I'd just jump in with a little bit of an intro here to this recording. It was done with my husband in Hanoi and it is a podcast that's just going to focus on one particular experience and that is the experience of the Tu Lan cave system in Phong Nha through the OXALIS tour group. And this experience was one had by my husband, so rarely will you get him to come on and do something like this, but I was thrilled that he did and I think you're going to get a lot out of it. I hope you will see it as some kind of insight to help you make a decision as to whether or not you would like to do caving or trekking or hiking, as Andrew goes into quite a bit of detail about what you can expect, what kind of fitness that you would need or don't need to do it, and just how well-organized Oxalis is in delivering that program for you. As I said, this is actually recorded in Hanoi. There is a little bit of background noise, so I hope you'll be forgiving of that, but you can't get any more authentic than this, I can tell you. So sit back, enjoy, and please welcome Andrew Newsome to the program. Now, people, this could not be any more authentic if it tried. I'm sitting here on the balcony of our hotel in Hanoi, just having come back from Phong Nha, and I'm sitting here with my husband, and this is… a happening interview, which I never thought would ever happen, as in I would ever get the chance to interview my husband on this show. But it's only because, and he's only agreed to do it because he has had such an amazing experience in Fongya doing the Tu Lan (4) four-day expedition with the Oxalis Adventure Group Company. And I didn't want to let time lapse before I interviewed him because he's been on such a high and he can remember everything and it's kind of vivid. I just wanted to do it now. I'm just hoping that there's not too much street noise, and if there is some background that you do pick up, people, please forgive me, it's just authentic Vietnam in its truest, most realistic self. Please, will you welcome Andrew Newsome to the program. Hello, Andrew. Andrew Newsome : Hi, Kerry. It's great to be here. Kerry Newsome: Okay, I'm going to treat you gently, but I'm going to definitely pick your brains about this day because I have to say that this is all about the expedition. It's all about those four days doing this caving trip, and I'm sure you're going to get a lot out of it from Andrew. So, Andrew, Maybe can we start with your motivation to do it in the first place? When we were sitting back in Australia and making up some plans for Vietnam, it was always on the map, but why this one? What was the kind of the reason behind you wanting to do this two-land, four-day expedition? Why this one? Andrew Newsome: So I didn't even know that there were caves in Vietnam until I heard your interview with Howard Limbert, who helped set up Exalis and discovered quite a few of these caves. And then from that, I had a look at their websites and I just thought it would be a fantastic thing to do. The Son Doong Cave, which is in the same area, is like the largest cave in the world and there's a whole bunch of other cave systems. I have done some caving before when I was in like Boy Scouts as a kid and a little bit in the army as part of adventure training, so I knew I really enjoyed that. I quite enjoy hiking and jungles and wildlife and all that sort of stuff. So when I had a look at the Oxalis website, they had a range of available guided tours ranging from like a half day trip that's suitable for the whole family all the way up to four and five day adventure treks through the jungle and the caves. The Son Dung cave is kind of the, you know, like the flagship trip and you basically spend the entire four days traversing through and sleeping overnight in Son Doong cave but that only has very limited spots available. And by the time I got round to booking, that one wasn't available. But when I had a look at all the other tours, the two-land, four-day expedition looked like a really good combination of trekking through the jungle and going through a range of different types of caves. So I thought that was probably the best one for me. Kerry Newsome : So, for everyone out there who's, you know, considering doing the same thing, it is an exciting thing to do, but there's a lot of talk about levels of fitness, you know, what trip and what activity would suit you best. Maybe, Andrew, you know, kind of speak to people about level of fitness to do this. Now, I want to preface this because The occasion that we did this trip and had time in Phong Nha, would you believe it, it was a heatwave. So, we're talking like 40 to 43 degrees at the time and it is April 2024. So, that was kind of not expected, not planned for and neither hoped for. So, that added a level of difficulty to it. But, Andrew, speak to us a little bit about just what level of fitness you need to do something like this two-land one. And on the day, on just talking generally about the people that joined you on it, what their level of fitness was as you witnessed it going about? Andrew Newsome : I've only obviously done one Oxalis tour, but it's obvious from the website that they have a range of tours that suit different levels of fitness. The Tu Lan, four-day expedition, the Hang Ba deep jungle expedition and the Son Doong expedition. sound like they're the three most difficult ones. Kerry Newsome : Level six, does that mean anything? Andrew Newsome : Yeah, Oxalis have like a six level system and they filter all their trips across those different levels and you can see that on the website. But for the hardest ones, I think you would definitely not only need fitness, but you probably want experience as well, so that you have the confidence. So, you would need experience. Trekking. Overnight trekking experience, climbing up and down steep terrain, rocky terrain, scrambling over rocks and boulders. For this one, there's swimming through the caves, so you need to be a reasonably confident swimmer. You don't need to be a strong swimmer. There's no strong currents. You've got a life jacket on, but you need to be comfortable in the water so that you can get in the water and swim through the caves and enjoy it rather than worrying about the environment. Kerry Newsome: And just that swimming bit, that's like fully clothed with your trekking boots on and everything, isn't it? Like, we're not saying strip down to your swimmers and take a nice dive and walk through. We're talking about from one side to the other with your backpack on your back, fully clothed, sort of getting out the other end, am I right? Andrew Newsome : Yes, but I certainly didn't find that too difficult or too unusual. And because of the heat, it was fantastic to get into the caves, which are much cooler than the outdoors. And the water in the caves and in the river systems is much cooler. So being able to cool down in the water and then continue on with wet clothes was actually a benefit. If you came in the cooler part of the year, around December, January, I believe it gets quite cool. So then, you know, doing that swimming and then getting out with wet clothes would be more challenging. Kerry Newsome : Alright, so let's start with our itinerary so we can take people through it so they can, you know, know right from the get-go what they're looking at. So first night, what are we looking at? Andrew Newsome : So the first and the last night are in, you know, in some ways not part of the expedition itself. The first night was at local farmstay, which was just some bungalow accommodation by the river that Oxalis use. I think you can stay there separately, but it's mostly used by Oxalis so that they can get everyone for all of their tours together in one place and make sure that they can start on time. on the first day. So I stayed there overnight and then got picked up by a minibus with all the other people from my tour and driven to Tulane Lodge, which is in close vicinity of the Tulane cave system. And that's where we got all our equipment and got ready to go from there. Kerry Newsome : What I'm hearing and what I've heard from other people too is you got a really good feeling really from the get-go about just the level of planning, organisation and training that you were going to get to use equipment and the people involved. So, maybe speak to us a little bit about that. Because for me that would be a big thing if I kind of from day one got that confidence that, you know, the people really knew their stuff, that would help me be confident to keep going. Andrew Newsome: First thing in the morning at the local farmstay, there was like four or five different groups and, you know, the staff were running around trying to sort us into the right groups so that we all got on the right bus and went to the right start point. And that was a little bit interesting. But once we got through that, it was fine. We got to the Lodge, got like a series of little sort of outdoor briefing rooms, and there's a PowerPoint, and they take you through all the stuff you need to know, all the safety, what equipment they're going to give you, what stuff you need to bring yourself, the system that they have where you carry the minimum amount of stuff. They have porters who carry other stuff. You can get rid of dirty and wet clothes each morning and it gets brought back to the lodge and you pick it up at the end and through all those different systems so that you understand how it's all going to work. Kerry Newsome: And it sounds, when we were talking about it just between you and I, it was just good to get a feel for the group that you were in was kind of mixed and maybe speak to that so people can feel like not everybody in the group is these you know, high-end or high-octane adventurers, you know. I think for me when I first envisaged it, I envisaged very young people, very active people, you know, everybody be there in the super-duper gear and all that sort of stuff, where that actually wasn't the case, was it? It was kind of your, more your average type person, Andrew Newsome : It was very much, it was a bit of a mixed bag. So the trip that I did was over the reunification day, long weekend. So Oxalis were very busy. And the number of domestic tourists from Vietnam that are doing these tours has only increased in the last couple of years. And because it was a long weekend here in Vietnam, there were even more. So, from my group of seven, there were five Vietnamese, myself and a French guy who's been living in Australia for the last 10 years. And from the various other groups that I saw or that we passed on the trail, I would say maybe two thirds to three quarters of the participants were Vietnamese and the other, you know, 30% or so were various different types of Westerners. Kerry Newsome : But all mixed levels of capability, I guess, in this kind of experience. Because what I found outstanding about this, and we didn't really know, or I didn't really know until later, was that the Tu Lan expedition is actually touted as more difficult than the Son Doong for strenuous activities and involving kind of endurance factors that you don't need as much in the Son Doong Cave. So, because this has got trekking and it's got jungle and it's got caving, those three levels combined makes this kind of the most difficult. But you found that there was varying levels of skills amongst your group. They weren't really, you know, the high level achievers. Andrew Newsome : I'm pretty sure everyone in our group had previous experience doing tracking. So, they may not have all have done something as difficult as this, but I'm pretty sure they've all done similar stuff or, you know, maybe not quite as hot or not quite as long. But I think they definitely all had some experience. So everyone in our group completed all the activity. The two safety staff who came with us in addition to the lead guide were obviously very experienced. They recognised which people were less confident than others and they sort of provided a level of assistance to them. So like when they're scrambling up over rocks, they're like, you know, put your foot here, grab my hand and I'll pull you up a little bit. helping them with their balance over the uneven terrain and that sort of stuff. Kerry Newsome : Okay, so let's talk about some of the activities then individually. Talk to us a little bit about the hiking element. Andrew Newsome : So, it was almost all through the jungle. There are a few patches where you're going through a valley where it's a bit more open, but most of it was through the jungle, and a lot of it was quite steep uphill or downhill, and quite a bit of it was over very uneven and rocky terrain. So often you were kind of scrambling over boulders and rocks. you know, the slopes were often around about 45 degrees, which is quite steep. Fortunately, considering the heat, when you're in the jungle, you're pretty much always in the shade, which made it a little bit cooler. And then it just opened out a few times around the valleys and around some of the rivers. Kerry Newsome: And then the swimming element. We talked a little bit about that before, but maybe give us a bit of a deep dive into that. Andrew Newsome : So there were quite a few rivers that we had to get across. Some of them we just sort of walked across because they were like knee deep. There was a couple that we had to swim across and a few of the caves were wet caves, which basically means, you know, the cave's half full of water and you need to swim all the way through it. Anytime we were actually swimming, there were life jackets provided and we all had to wear them. I'm a reasonably strong swimmer and I'm confident I could have done any of the swimming without a life jacket, but I had no issues wearing it. You're there to experience the cave, so just being able to float along and look around rather than having to concentrate on swimming was great and definitely, I think, added to it overall. Kerry Newsome : And I imagine just from the pictures I've seen that just that lovely coolness of being in the water, just being able to look up 360 degrees must have been awesome. You mentioned also about rafting. So, talk to us a little bit about, I mean, I know you said there was no rapids or rough water, but there was definitely crossing rivers inside the cave, believe it or not, and you were rafting. So, talk about that. Andrew Newsome : I think to mix it up as much as anything, there was like a river crossing that we could have swum across, but they had like a big inflatable raft positioned there and we used that to get across. And then in one of the caves later on, where we were abseiling down off a cliff into the water, Instead of, obviously it takes a little bit of time for each person to individually abseil down, so instead of having people sitting in the water, waiting for everyone else to abseil down, you abseil down onto a raft, and then sat there on the raft until everyone else had come down, and then you could either stay on the raft and paddle out, or you could get into the water at that point and swim out of the cave. Kerry Newsome : Okay. And you mentioned also something about ladder climbing. What's that? Andrew Newsome : Yeah, so there was just one part where we needed to go up an almost vertical section and it wasn't really suitable for climbing or scrambling up. So there's a permanent ladder there that went up about probably 15 metres. And just as a safety thing while climbing that ladder, you put your harness back on and you're clipped onto a line so that if you slipped off the ladder you wouldn't fall. Kerry Newsome : Okay, so one of the things that I was really impressed about when we were talking about it afterwards was your impression of the organisation. Like, you just couldn't speak highly enough about the planning, the safety briefings, the descriptions. And considering you're coming to a country, you know, that English is the second language. You know, you don't have that kind of familiarity to give you some sense of confidence. You really raved about it. Can you speak to us just a little bit more about that? Because I think that for people who are making the journey to come to Vietnam in the first place, coming to Phong Nha and then doing something like this, I just think, let's answer that. Let's really put to bed that so people can feel really good about it. Andrew Newsome : Yeah, I thought from go to woe, the whole thing was very well organised. Obviously, they've spent a lot of time refining their processes and their itineraries and putting everything in place in the background so that everyone who comes on the trip can focus on having a really good time and all the logistics and all the stuff behind the scenes is taken care of. Kerry Newsome : Yeah. And, you know, I presume that kind of went also for your guides and the staff and, you know, you spoke of your guide, Annetta, and, you know, how great she was in leading everyone. So, porters and I heard even the food's good. Andrew Newsome : Yeah, yeah. So, Annetta, the lead guide, was fantastic. She spoke very good English and she explained everything that we needed to know twice, obviously once in Vietnamese and then once in English. She did a really good job of making sure all of us were having a good time, if we had any issues or anything that she or any of the other crew could fix, they were all over it. The itinerary was very well paced, so we never felt like we were in a rush or that we couldn't take the time to enjoy everything, but at the same time, it didn't really feel like we were ever wasting time. When we were hiking, because of the heat, we took quite regular breaks. You could cool down and drink and catch your breath if you needed to, and then we'd keep going. But we still got everywhere we needed to go, did everything we needed to do. It was really good. Kerry Newsome : And you haven't yet talked about the food. You raved about the food. Come on, like, let's get on to the food. Andrew Newsome : So the food was really good. Obviously, you're eating out in the jungle, but like it might be at the mouth of a cave and they throw down a tarp. And I don't know where all the food came from. The guys just kept opening their backpacks and pulling out more stuff. I guess you'd call it simple but traditional Vietnamese food. So there was a lot of pork, a lot of chicken. The first lunch we were making rice paper rolls and eating them at the entrance to a cave. Soups, fruit, all sorts of tasty things. There was a vegetarian in the group and there was extra stuff for her. And there was always plenty of food. Kerry Newsome : And, you know, it was something that I was worried about in the heat and, you know, thinking about how were they going to keep that food fresh, you know, along the duration of that time period, especially in the heat. But you said it just kind of seemed to come from nowhere and, you know, it was fresh as and you really enjoyed it. So, that was a good thing. Andrew Newsome : Yes, so the porters weren't walking with us, like we saw them at night, but during the day, as we were making our way through doing all the caves, they were obviously walking backwards and forwards to various pickup points that could be accessed by road or scooter or whatever. And they were picking up the food for that day or dropping off everyone's dirty clothes that we could get them at the end or whatever was needed to make it all happen. Kerry Newsome : So, if you were to provide everyone thinking about this, what tips would you have for them? Andrew Newsome : I think you definitely, to get the most out of it, you need to pick a tour that is suitable for your level of ability. Yeah. Kerry Newsome : And we knew that it wasn't for me, right? We knew that definitely. Andrew Newsome: Yes. Kerry Newsome : So, I think you've got to call it, haven't you? Andrew Newsome: Yeah, you know, you're probably going to be planning it in advance. So you might look at the tours and what's required and say, well, you know, maybe I can only do level two or level three. But if you're six or 12 months out and you spent that time doing a bunch of hiking and some overnight stuff, you could probably get to a higher level of fitness by the time you set out to do it. So I think Be realistic, but also don't sell yourself short, because I think I can't comment for any of the other tours on the website, because I've only done one of them. But I suspect if you push yourself just a little bit, you'll get the most out of it. Kerry Newsome : And as you say, it's just a matter of confidence and if you've done a few bits of trekking and a little bit of that kind of exercise to feel that way, you're going to be able to relax into it rather than treating it as a bit of a stretch or a challenge. I think to enjoy those kinds of things, If you go there relaxed and confident, then you enjoy it and you don't treat it like an arduous challenge that you've got to kind of competing with yourself to enjoy it. Before you go, I just, look, I know this is gonna be a challenge for you, but was there any, like, aha moment? Like, did you come to a point, because I thought your aha moment was actually right at the end when you rang me and said, you know, it was through, it was just absolute amazing, but was there any aha moment while you were doing it that you went, God, I'm just glad I'm here and I'm doing this. Was there anything in that? Andrew Newsome : Look, we've talked about a lot of stuff, but we haven't really talked about the caves. And I mean, obviously, the caves are mostly what it's about. Kerry Newsome : Knock yourself out, Andrew. Talk about the caves. Andrew Newsome: And just the caves themselves were amazing. The scale of them. the pristine nature. I'm not sure exactly what the system is, but access to these caves is government controlled. Exalis have got some sort of permit where they can only let so many people per year through them. Obviously, Oxalis are very invested in looking after the caves, so there's some areas you can't go into. You know, there's no rubbish. If anyone sees the tiniest scrap of rubbish, they pick it up and take it out with them. Kerry Newsome : That's great to hear. Andrew Newsome : Yeah, they're just beautiful caves. Some of them are massive. There's all different types of formations. As we were going through, Annette had a lot of information about how different types of formations formed and the calcium carbonate and the silicon dioxide and various other things that I can't remember now. Kerry Newsome : But would you have said prior to doing this, you were really into caves? Because I've been married to you for 20 years and I can't really think that you were into caves before. You'd go, yeah, you know, like we're going to go and visit caves. So, for you to go, oh, we haven't talked about the caves and how amazing they were. Andrew Newsome : I don't have a good answer to that. But seeing the photos of the caves in Vietnam and realising that they were something above and beyond what I've ever seen before in Australia, it just really looked like something that I knew I would enjoy. But even expecting that, I was just blown away by the variety, the scale, the unspoilt nature of the caves. It's fantastic. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, and I think they're really strong on keeping that unspoiled nature of the caves that, you know, that footprint of the tourist is very well monitored and they're under very strict conditions to do so. So that is good. But I think you also mentioned that there was some beautiful natural light coming through from various aspects of the caves, which they try and capture on film, but you got to be there really, don't you? Andrew Newsome : maybe one part of a tour that I was less into. was they have, at different points in different caves, they have some opportunity for some staged photographs. They know the best way to do it. They know the best settings to put on your camera or your iPhone to capture it. And you can do poses or whatever you want and get some really fantastic photos of you to put on your Instagram or whatever the kids do these days. Kerry Newsome : In just wrapping up, Andrew, is there anything I didn't ask you, anything else you just want to mention? Because this is your story, and I want to make sure that for you and for everyone listening, they just get everything they can from you on this tour. Andrew Newsome : I think we've covered it, Kerry. I can't recommend it enough. It definitely exceeded my expectations. If you're interested in caving, jungle, nature, trekking, a unique experience that it's difficult to get anywhere else, and you're in Vietnam, then I would absolutely recommend one of these trips. Kerry Newsome : Thanks a lot. I really appreciate you doing this because I know how much you love doing this kind of thing. I think everyone, you want to feel really honored to get this because this is really heartfelt and I think it's just fabulous that it turned out to be as good as we hoped. Andrew Newsome : Anything for you, my darling.

What About Vietnam Hoi An in Focus- 10 Things to Love from a local’s view and a traveller’s return Kerry Newsome : Xin chào and welcome to What About Vietnam. I have no doubt as soon as you start to plan your trip to Vietnam, the city of Hoi An is going to come up and feature very highly. There's lots of reasons for that. It's a big favourite for all new travellers to Vietnam. It offers the beautiful UNESCO World Heritage Site Old Town and it has beautiful beaches, and simply for the solo traveller, for the couple, for the family, there's so much to do. Today's episode is one close to my heart. We're revisiting one of the most loved conversations from our archives, originally recorded back in 2021 with my delightful guest, Sharon. Kerry Newsome: In the interview, you're going to hear Sharon mention Hoi An now. This was a helpful resource her and her husband built at the time that has since retired from operation. Sharon, however, remains a frequent visitor and true lover of Hoi An, and her insights into what makes this town so special are as timeless as ever. You've heard that old saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And while the episode still holds so much value, Hoi An, like all living, breathing places, has evolved. In my recent visit, I recognized some significant changes, but still a deep sense of wanting to keep hold of what makes Hoi An so unique. It's kind of hard to explain, I guess, but I'll do my best. As you'd expect, Hoi An just keeps growing in popularity. And with that, comes an international mix of travellers and a fresh wave of creativity, especially in the food scene. One of the best surprises for me recently was a dish called Barney Fur at Mam House. It was a kind of an accidental, just stumbled across place. Think of it as a clever twist on two Vietnamese icons. The crispy French style baguette of Banh Mi filled with the rich aromatic flavors of traditional pho. Add in the French chef who owns Mam House, his own fish sauce and pepper. Man, it was delicate, bold and absolutely delicious. A snack that totally stopped me in my tracks. Definitely one to put on your list. I also had the chance to visit one of Hoi An's newest gems, Namia River Retreat. It's a stunning new wellness sanctuary that's really raising the bar here. With its riverside setting and mindful approach to well-being, It's showing that wellness in Hoi An is evolving beyond the usual spas and nail bars you'll see every hundred yards. It's absolutely a much more immersive experience, more connected to nature and the local culture. I'm going to be featuring Namia River Retreat in an upcoming wellness focused episode. So you'll want to stay tuned for that if you're looking for some recharging while you come to Vietnam. As I consider myself a member of the slow travel movement, I'm still charmed by cafes out at the beach like Sounds of Silence and cute hideaways like Phin Coffee in the Old Town. You'll be spoilt for choice, trust me. That said, in the spirit of honesty and helping you plan better, it's also worth noting a few realities. With Hoi An's increasing popularity, especially with day trippers, tour groups, and increasingly a domestic tourist, backpackers, and traveling families, that rising demand has brought a noticeable hike in accommodation prices, particularly in high season. Where my favorite boutique hotels and riverside villas are still available, they are now asking at least 30% to 40% more per night. So, planning ahead and adjusting your budget slightly is a wise move. You're going to have to keep a more realistic viewpoint on accommodation and where you want it located. Even my original tailor is too busy to fit me in at the moment. Either that or I'm just becoming too impatient to wait in queues with stares from other patrons wanting the tailor's attention. Maybe it's just a sign of my old age or time to move on to others who do a good job and need the business. Watch this space. There are lots of mixed emotions when we talk about over-tourism, especially in the ancient town. It can sometimes dampen the magic if you're not prepared for it. My advice, seek out the quieter moments. Early mornings are the best, definitely, and I mean really early. In the evening, the lantern lit streets are something a must do for people who are visiting. But you may find areas by the river a bit choked with crowds. The idea is to just go with the flow and make your way to maybe some quieter places overlooking the river with a bit more of a soulful feel. But they'll be just on the outer skirt. So keep walking. You're going to find them there, I'm sure, as I have. And when it comes to the beach, It's true that erosion has impacted parts of the coastline. While An Bang and Cua Dai and still offer beauty and a really cool vibe, you may notice a thinner shoreline, sandbagging or more decking and built up beachfront spaces as businesses have just adapted. It's still beautiful, it's just different. Like any destination navigating its popularity, climbing prices and changing weather, like March was cold this trip and didn't really warm up till early April. Hoi An is working hard to balance that tourism with tradition. And that sometimes means progress is welcome by some but not all. And some parts as they go through it are a bit ugly and soul-destroying. But guess what? Hoi An's not the only place in the world that's experiencing that, so it's part of the story. What remains, and what I still love most, is that deep breath you take when you first walk through the ancient town. And when you're sitting by the Thu Bon River, watching the lanterns dance on the water, you have to remind yourself, where else in the world could you experience this? So this is your updated Gateway to Hoi An. I've kept the original conversation with Sharon intact because I listened to it again and I was just reminded that her insights, they're just timeless and you're going to get a really good feel for that during the show. But I wanted to set the scene again for a new year, a new vibe, but the same incredible Hoi An. Let's dive in. Sharon Sweeney : Top of the list is Hoi An Old Town. I mean, I've never seen any place like Hoi An Old Town in all my travels. Basically, it's a heritage listed small town that is actually steeped in history. It's like a living museum, if you like. During the 1500s, it was the sort of epicenter for merchants who were going along the Silk Road. And so you had all these, I mean, amazing time, all these merchants from different parts of the world, like Japan, China, Europe, France, just everywhere and the architecture of the Hoi An Old Town is sort of reflecting all that melting pot of people and during the day it's just incredible because they've just maintained it so beautifully. They've got buttercup yellow buildings interspersed with pastel blue sky blue, baby blue sort of paint work as well. And it's just, it's just incredible. It's just so well preserved. And then at night, at night, it's like, it's like Disneyland because Hoi An is known as the lantern, the lantern town, and for good reason. Out of every shop front, there is numerous lanterns. There are lanterns along the street. There are lanterns overpassing the street. And my favourite time in Hoi An Old Town is where it's twilight. And you know that magical colour that twilight becomes? It's like pink and soft purple and orange, and they have these gorgeous sunsets. Anyway, and then the lights, the lanterns start coming on and oh my God, it's like this magical Disneyland experience. And then you've got this Tubon River that's just float, that just goes all the way through it. And on that, you've got these little Sampan boats that are just all adorned with the same lanterns, all colors of every imaginable color really. To see Hoi An at night like that and from the river is just, I mean, really. And just a couple of things, Hoi An is also a bicycle town and so there's no traffic as well that's allowed in the old town. So you can walk through it very nicely, but they have little traditions. And one that is very close to my heart because I've got a lot of wishes in me is, as we know, let's not dwell on that. Forget the wishes. So yeah, you go on, you can take a little trip on these sampan boats and you set this these little wish candles. You make a wish and you put them in a little, they're in a little sort of little cup if you like, little paper cup, and you light your wish candle and you watch it bobbing away in the water and hoping your wish will come true. So I mean you've just, everybody should see Hoi An Old Town just once in their life. Kerry Newsome : I think absolutely and I think a lot of people have referred it to me as the Venice of Vietnam and it kind of is that and then I was talking to someone just the other day and they said you know if you didn't know better you'd think it was a movie set. because everything is so beautifully preserved, as you say, as in the old town buildings, all the shop houses and things like that. So I think you putting number one as a visit to the old town, either during the day and experiencing the markets early in the morning and the shop houses and having coffee somewhere really cute, checking out all the alleys, or as you say, at twilight, coming into the evening, watching the town lit up with the lanterns because there's some areas, as you say, are lit totally by lanterns. In other words, there's no light without the lanterns. And then, of course, there's the sampan boats and the wishes bobbing up and down and floating down the river. So, number one, I'm totally supportive of. I think it's a must-do thing. So for people listening, staying close to the Old Town is sometimes a good idea. So it's an easy walk into town and I certainly would recommend that for first-time visitors to Hoi An because whilst Hoi An has lovely beaches as well. The feature of Hoi An is definitely that 16th century old town. So as close as you can get to it, I think is a good idea. Anyway, Sharon, what's your number two? Sharon Sweeney : Number two is the other thing that I love very much about being in Hoi An is the close proximity of the countryside. There's something about being close to the land that I think we all need. Five minutes on a bicycle will take you into rice fields, rice paddies, or you can go a little bit further and you'll go into villages. It's, I mean, I've seen images of this, but I never really believed that Vietnam would have people wearing the conical hats, you know, the normal hats. I never really believed it, but they do. It's very much part of the headwear in Vietnam. And what I love about the rice paddies and the villages is it's like, again, stepping back into another time. It's like going back a hundred years because, you know, They plough the fields with water buffalo. It's really sort of like old world. And so there's nothing unusual about seeing a water buffalo just on the side of the road, meandering across the road. I mean, it can be actually a main road and you'll have cows passing. And so the countryside element of Hoi An, it just fills my soul. I can't, one of the most wonderful sights that still thrills me to my soul is when the geese or the ducks are going back to roost and you'll see them coming along a main road and there's about 200 of them all just waddling along with the man herding them along and people just go round them, cars go round them. I mean, where else? Kerry Newsome : Yeah. Yeah, it's it's that's the sweetness. I think it's absolutely the sweetness of those simple things. And as you say, just to breathe in that beautiful fresh air, all those beautiful I mean, when you're riding through the paddy fields, it's kind of the only way you can get anywhere reasonably fast. And I think there's some people, may even be you, Sharon, that has jumped on one of those electric bikes, I think, to get around. Oh, you know what? Sharon Sweeney : I don't know what the world is thinking. I'd never really come across an electric bike until I went to Vietnam and they're everywhere. And Why do we bother with cycling when you can sit on it and go zip and off you go? Kerry Newsome : It's their dream. Definitely, definitely a way to get around. So we're going to say bicycle around town is number two? Yeah, for sure. Yep. Okay, where are we up to? Number three. Sharon Sweeney : Well you know Hoi An is equally famous for the heritage old town as it is for its tailors and no trip to Hoi An is complete without a trip to the tailor. You must get there. Where can a man get a suit made of high quality wool, a bespoke suit made just for him for $100? And you can get that in Hoi An. You know, the tailors are on every corner. I actually have them on the website, my favorites, by the way, because what you can get is the top end tailors do charge quite a lot and they're not all that different to many of the other tailors. So you're paying a lot more money. And then sometimes it's a very hit and miss, but whatever the case, it's all great fun. And what I love most, don't you love this, is going into a shop and where there's reams and reams and bolts and bolts of all colored fabrics and types and silks and linens and choosing the fabric and then you go to the tailor and they'll copy something, they'll design something or they'll give you a pattern and it's addictive. It's so addictive and it's very, very cheap. So cheap. Kerry Newsome : Very cheap and very quick. And quick. Like you can get a suit made in two days. You can get a suit made overnight, Kerry, if you go to the right feet. That's my love. Well, I think they are a little bit more in the hit and miss variety. I mean, there's some tailors there that would slap your hand for saying overnight. But yes, those, you know, are maybe a little bit more yet select. I maybe would steer clear of those. We have talked about zippers not working the right way and things like that in the past but I'm addicted. I am definitely addicted to the tailoring as I've told you every time I've literally taken over my assortment of pictures from Pinterest or whatever that I like and I just say I want that one and that one and then also as you say wandering around those fabric markets just picking the exact material fabric, weight, style, etc. that I want, as I want dots or I want stripes or I want whatever, and just have it made exactly to what my body shape is at the time. Well I actually started to forget whether I was a 10 or a 12 or a 14, thank goodness because you know every time I went I just kind of got it made to what I was so that's a little bit tricky as well but fun as you say. Now definitely tailoring and there's 3,000 tailors in town so you might like to check you might like to check Sharon's website, Hoya Now, she's got some good recommendations there. But let's not get stuck on tailoring, let's move on to number four because we've got a list of ten to get through. Sharon Sweeney: Yeah, well look, number four is I take my job very seriously and so whilst we have got tailors on the site, we've got something far more important in terms of the best and that is the spas, massages and spa treatments, you know, come on. Kerry Newsome : Oh yeah, what a hard job you had to take so seriously, Taryn, to check those out. Sharon Sweeney : We had to perfect it and it means going back to the same place, it means actually going to every place in Hoi An just to see what they're like and you know, and I do. So, I know, I know, I know, I'm a champion, but I do it regularly, yes. Well, look, at the prices, you'd be mad not to. I don't think anyone should go and have a one-hour massage when you can have a five-hour massage. I reckon you should just book yourself in for the entire trip, because I would. You've got the high-end, very high-class hotels offering massages. Now they cost a fortune and I've sent writers, reviewers, to the top really expensive hotels and it's very hit and miss and one would surprise you, I won't name it, but it's one of the best hotels in Vietnam and the spa treatment was very hit and miss. So again, no seriously, we do put very much a recommendation of the ones you should go to and Whilst you can get fabulous ones on the street corners, I mean, you can, because massage is an innate thing. It's not often something you can train for a good masseur. The ones I highly recommend are the day spas. And there you've got trained masseurs. They're cheap. The premises are clean. They're really, really tasteful. The decor's tasteful. You've got the full sort of Western sort of spa with the wafting music. The smells actually, oh yes, oh. Kerry Newsome : You're sending me back there in a heartbeat, like seriously. That is one of the things as far as your trip planning is concerned, I would highly recommend to people to include. Don't, I think people always think they've got to be doing you know, doing all the time. And I think sometimes there is some pleasure and enjoyment in a holiday when you're just able to access things like massage and be able to just chill out, but not lie there thinking this is costing me a fortune. Yes. Sharon Sweeney: No, that's right. I totally agree. But there's also there's one thing I was thinking of, too. One of the things that surprised me, actually, if not startled me, was that when you go to a massage on the street corners and sometimes in the mid-range and sometimes in the high range, The Vietnamese have a fascination, or they just don't really care, but they don't turn away or leave the room sometimes when you're undressing. And that took me, I mean, you know, I remember getting quite feisty about it and thinking that they were trying to persecute me because I'd eaten quite a lot and felt fat, you know. And I didn't want anyone witnessing it, but they did. Just be aware of it. They don't mean harm. Kerry Newsome: No, but I think they like to check out that your bits, you know, your bits are white, like their bits might be slightly toasted. Yeah. But yeah, I think that's about the fascination. Yeah. Because I can remember actually the same thing happening to me when I first went. And I actually pointed to my arm and I said, yep, same, same. And she got it, like the girl really resonated with me and went, ah, yes, okay, yeah. That's what we're looking at, so move on. All right, after our spa, where are we off to? Sharon Sweeney: Well, you know, this is, I'm not really a person that likes to do cooking tours, but the cooking tours in Hoi An are a must because it's not really just about the cooking. It's actually about the cultural learning about the culture and the cultural experience of the whole. So, I mean, I highly recommend a cooking tour. They have cooking tours for all types, so if you're a professional chef and you don't want all the bits and pieces of paraphernalia, then you can do professional, you know, cooking tours. You can do a cultural tour where, and it's great for kids, where they can go out and act like farmers. They actually dress you up as a farmer, you know. And you pick the vegetables and carry them in those round baskets. Kerry Newsome : Very, very happy. And you wear those peasant clothes, you know, you get dressed up in that, in the stinking heat, looks fabulous. Sharon Sweeney: And then you've also got other ones where you can get, you know, like everything thrown in. They like to throw everything in in Vietnam. You can get a basket boat ride, so they're the round modular boats. You can get a water buffalo ride. You can, well, you can get lots of things. You can even get a massage, which is great. Just thrown in. One thing though that is really good about them, and this is something that I would put equally number five if I had to choose another one, is they take you to the markets. And the market is the lifeblood of Vietnamese society. It's like we go to the shopping center, they go to the market, and it's a daily activity. It's not just to buy, it's to barter. They'll barter even though they know each other, because it's all part of the thing. And yeah, so I highly recommend it for the markets. Kerry Newsome : Yes, definitely. And I think it is a very immersive experience. And I think what better way to understand a country than to experience it through its food. So definitely there, highly rate that as a number five. Now, what are we missing, Sharon? What are you up to now? Number six, yeah. Sharon Sweeney : And that has to be one of the tools and one of my highest recommendations, it's on our top 10 on the website, is Marble Mountains. And it's set between Da Nang and Hoi An, about 20 minutes from Hoi An. And during the 15th century, second to 15th century, it was used by the Cham, it's during the Cham period, it was used by the people there as a sacred site of worship and it's got, it's really got one of those energies, it's amazing. There's five mountains and each one represents an element. So you've got fire, water, metal, wood and earth. And it's just amazing. There's pagodas there, which are like temples and shrines. You've got caves, massive caves that you can go down into. There's tunnels. Kerry Newsome : Or crawling tunnels in very small areas. Hands down. I've seen some funny pictures where people are getting their bum shoved through. Me, me. Sharon Sweeney: I really got, oh my God, I was scared. They can really, be careful. Yeah. Guides will grab you and they'll just shove you forward. And then the next thing is you're climbing into things that you could easily break your neck on. So just be careful of that, you know. Good footwear. Yeah, well, good, yes. And beware of the heat. It's very hot. It gets very hot there. So just have to go early morning is the best during the summertime. And truly, I mean it because it's very hot. But when you get to the top, the views of Da Nang and all around are just simply, I mean, you're just going to lift your soul. They're breathtaking. And they're so good because they look over what used to be known as China used to congregate and it's such good bird's eye view of the whole city of Da Nang that the Vietnamese used to actually use it as a watchtower as well as a hospital during that period. So that's definitely, it's incredible. But I also love those marble statues at the bottom. Kerry Newsome : You may see at the beginning of the show notes in the podcast channel that you're listening from, some words that say, text me a message. It's a great idea, don't get me wrong. I love hearing from you. And whether that's your thoughts on the episodes, some questions, messages of appreciation, I just love the feedback, it's really great. However, I feel it remiss of me to A, not thank you for them, but to B, not be able to respond directly to you. So, if you have sent me a question and I've got lots and you haven't heard from me, there's a really good reason why I actually don't have the ability in the technology to respond to you. they kind of expect that you would or I would answer the questions in the form of a show. And there's just kind of too many and I just think it's just too personal not to do it that way. So I wanted to alert you to the fact that if you do send me a message through that connection option, I'm not going to be able to respond to you directly. So if you do have a question, and it is time sensitive, or you wanna send me any kind of message, can I suggest the following two ways? One, send me an email to whataboutvietnamatgmail.com. That is the email address that I have the most constant access to, and I will aim to get back to you ASAP. Secondly, if you go to the website for the podcast, which is whataboutvietnam.com, if you scroll right to the bottom, there is a chance for you to leave a voice message. Now, in that voice message, I can respond to you equally with a response invoice. So, if you want a quick response, that's your next best way. But I just wanted to get this into the show, make you aware of this as it really is becoming problematic. And I've just got too many And I can't kind of go naming people and answering each question. That's just a little bit silly. So if you have sent me a text message before and you're waiting on a message back as a response, I'm so sorry. I cannot do that. But if you want to send the question again, I'd be more than happy to answer. Those marble statues are like the size of King Kong. Sharon Sweeney : I think if you're in the market for a couple of 20 foot lions that you want to put in your backyard. Kerry Newsome : Do you know, I can remember when they used to have just a few, just a few showrooms I think on the street, but now they line the street and I go who buys these? It's not as if you can like put it in the back of your taxi or your grab car on the way home. They are heavy, huge white kind of stallions that they, I always know when I'm nearly at Marble Mountain because those lined up of shops and frontages where all those statues are sitting out there show, yes, I already, I know, I go, oh, we're here. The marble is out. Sharon Sweeney : Well, that in itself is a sightseeing tour. It's fantastic. But actually what you can buy, and I still will, is the marble chess set. So you've got like beautifully cut, carved marble chess sets that are about six inches to seven inches tall, each piece on a marble chess board. And look, yeah, you can get that shipped overseas, back to your hometown or wherever. Highly worth it. 300 bucks was the last I saw at the last count, yeah. Kerry Newsome : Okay, so we've done Marble Mountain, number seven we're up to. Well, where are we headed now? Sharon Sweeney : Marble Mountain is something that came onto the Hoi An scene about two or three years ago and I can't, I can't tell you. It's a show and it's outside and it's part of a theme park and it's called Hoi An Memory Show. and I'd heard about it and just thought oh I'm not going to that it sounds very glitzy you know not my sort of thing but I covered it for the website and my god Kerry it's a cast of about 300 It's world-class presentation. People fly through the air, there's music, there's lights, there's dancers, actors. It's all like water. Well, it's a real recreation of Hoi An and so you've got the Tuvon River, you've got the Japanese Bridge. The stage is water. Oh, it's just so cute and the stage is water and it's folktales interspersed with the history of Hoi An and it's sad, it's uplifting, it's just Oh, it blows you away. Those mechanical elephants that come on stage, you know, on the arena. But here you go, a little bit of a, little bit of a tip. We got, when I covered it for Hoi An Now, I got VIP seats, which was great. You know, I thought I'm set. And then I went again and I got the peasant seats, which is right down the front. And there, that's where you should be. You're right on this. amazing thing and it's just hard to explain but it's also part of a theme park that you go at four o'clock and that in itself, all the actors who are going to perform later are actually part of the sales assistants, they do mini shows, they serenade you, there's little historical things, little places you can go to learn about the silk trade and things like that, amazing. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, it's a delight. I took my 16-year-old grandson and I thought, oh, you know, pretty hard to impress a kid of that age, you know, like he's going to think this is a bit, you know, and he just said I was blown away because also it's the contrast. You've just come out of a 16th century old town And then a little bit around the corner, you're stepping into this amazing theme park with this fully professional choreographed stage on water that is definitely up in the 20th century kind of level of production. And the contrast from one to another is just, you can't help but just be blown away by it. I mean, he said it's like watching the stage. Sharon Sweeney : You opening to the Olympics, yes, that's a very good analogy, actually. That's exactly right, it is. Well, I just tell everybody, you must go because most people love, almost everyone loves Hoi An. I mean, the people are lovely. And to see a show like that, you just feel, I don't know, All warm and fuzzy. Kerry Newsome : You do, swept away. You do. All right, now you're getting me very, very handsy for Hoi An now. But let's travel on. What are we up to? Number eight, I think. So what's your number eight? Sharon Sweeney : Well, you know, it shouldn't be number eight, but it's hard to put them in order because there's so many good things in Hoi An. But it's the beaches. I mean, Kerry, those beaches. Sydney and parts of Australia, I mean they're beautiful beaches, they're so incredible, but so too are the beaches in Vietnam and I'm so surprised actually, I don't know what I expected, but you've got yellow expanses of sand, blue water, it's still, although it does get some waves, all you surfers out there, there are some waves, don't worry, but I like it still and it's still And it's warm and it's safe. There's no sharks or crocodiles. And what is something that we don't have? And I haven't seen this in many parts of the world, to be honest. is shade. These beaches in Australia are beautiful, but there's no shade. In Vietnam, all along the beachfront, there are either thatched huts or you have umbrellas and little tables and chairs and, you know, there's room for everybody. They're not crowded. Everybody can use one. And you get your little posse, as we say in Australia, you get your little posse there. You order your cocktail. Oh, or you order whatever you want and you can stay there all day. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, I've literally plot my bot, isn't that another Australian thing? God, that's terrible. But yes, but I have plot my bot down with a Diet Coke under a umbrella and literally just stayed put, put my headphones on, read my book for hours on end. I mean, if you go to Italy or places like that, they charge you about 50 euro just to sit down, just to have the umbrella. So, you know, and you're so right, the beaches are just divine. And what I love is the access to restaurants. They're sitting right on it, aren't they? I'm leading to that. Sharon Sweeney: I'm getting to that, Kerry, because that's coming up. But before I move on, I want to say this, that what you'll find is incredible. One of the things about Vietnam is it's so cheap and never forget that. It's a really nice part of Vietnam. But the other thing is the ladies that come and hawk on those beaches people get very I've seen some people get very aggressive with them try not to because actually these people are really nice people and they're just trying to make a living and I just people should just be aware because the Vietnamese are lovely people they don't mean harm and so yeah Kerry Newsome : just think that they could be your grab. And they're not aggressive. They're not aggressive. They're not aggressive in any way. But I have noticed some tourists take umbrage to them coming around. But as you say, there's very few of them. Some of them are very well known to the restauranters as well. So they kind of let them come in and you know, for a very small amount of money, you can make a very big difference to those people's lives. Oh, you can. Sharon Sweeney : And when you buy something, the humbleness of them, it's lovely. Kerry Newsome : Okay. Now, up to number nine, we're nearly there. Sharon Sweeney: We are. And it's moving on from your restaurants, because this is the other thing. You've told me, and you're quite right, that Hoi An has world-class restaurants, you've got all types of cuisine, beautiful Vietnamese, you've got Greek, Spanish, fantastic Italian restaurants, everything you can imagine. And I can't say that I shouldn't have this on the list, but the thing is that takes it out for me is having a meal in the evening with the balmy weather and overlooking the beach, and you have that beach, a beautiful stillness, and you can hear the waves just washing onto the beach, and you're there in one of the restaurants that line the beach, and I've got a few for different types. I'm just going to give some names, which I don't normally do. I don't like to because there's venues everywhere, but I'm going to do this. There's four types that I would recommend. For me, the all-out favorite has got to be Soul Kitchen, that I would recommend to a tourist, is Soul Kitchen. It's an iconic venue, it was one of its kind, and many have sprung up, but Soul Kitchen still retains its heart. Overlooking An Bang Beach, it's got live music, and these musicians are world-class. You can hear fantastic music, have food overlooking the beach and enjoy some drinks or whatever your fancy might be. and it's sunset, it's to die for. And you've got these wonderful little thatched, well, not little, they're quite big, aren't they? If you've got a party of people, aren't they nice? They're these hutch, like thatched little mini houses, if you like, with no walls, phantom. And the day beds. Kerry Newsome : The day beds, yeah, we like them, don't we? We do. We do, who wouldn't? I mean, you can just take your shoes off. I know it's a naughty thing to do, but just to take your shoes off, be able to snuggle up on one of those day beds and drink it. And once again, as you say, I've never felt any impetus by the staff to say to me like, okay, you can move along now. Like you've been here three or four hours, it's time to go. Never have I been pushed out the door. And I can stay there easily an afternoon. And once the evening comes on, as you say, with the entertainment, you're not charged for that entertainment. There's no entry fee into the venue. And just to linger there in that atmosphere is just divine, just divine. Sharon Sweeney : And then you've got other places as well, if you're into nightlife you've got Cocoon (No Longer open), that's amazing, it starts at nine o'clock with a DJ. It's hip hop, yep. Very hip-hop. It goes till late, whatever that is, very hip-hop, very for the younger real party crowd. Yeah, they shut the doors so they cut the noise down. Yeah, and then you, well they do, yeah they do, and they make some noise. And then you've got Salt Pub which is very classy but it's also a pub atmosphere, combines the two, great for kids and yes great location for kids and then if you're in a really wealthy demographic then you've got Shore Club which is very high class but they all and there's there's others as well there's one by run by an Australian called Max Lambert which is for the basically for the backpacker crowd and I love going there but it's all they all overlook the beach and well, just don't miss them. Go to all of them. Kerry Newsome : Yes. And they all offer, as you say, just something slightly different to each other. But as you walk past, you can pick a seafood restaurant, you know, and pick your seafood straight out of a bucket. You can move on and you can go to the H’mong Sisters and have a meal there. Or you could have a pizza next door. You go on to Soul Kitchen, as you say. Like, either left or right at An Bang Beach, there's just such a range. I totally agree with you. Yeah, yeah. Sharon Sweeney : It's happening at An Bang. Kerry Newsome : It's definitely. Okay, last but not least, number 10. Sharon Sweeney : Well again, you know, I'm looking for the wow factor and I was thinking of all my time in Vietnam, what was one of the things that gave me this, ooh, wow. And that was, there's no doubt, it's the Hai Van Pass. And the Hai Van Pass is extraordinary. It's known by the Vietnamese as Deu Hai Van, which means ocean cloud pass, and that should give you an idea. You start off at sort of ocean level and you go up this mountain right into the clouds and you know it's a thrilling experience. There's a steep, steep drop the more you go. The roads wind and you pass these jungle covered hills, there's fishing villages below. It's just and then this view at the top It's just extraordinary and so that used to be the main way you got from Da Nang to Hue, which I highly recommend everyone visit. It was from Da DaNang to Hue. But now you can go another way, but don't go the Hai Van Pass. And if you can, go by bike, motorbike, but just beware. I recommend you go with a licensed bike driver because Vietnam has the highest death toll in the world or accident toll in the world with bikes. And Kerry, I don't know one expat, me included, my husband included, that hasn't had a bike accident. Some have been fatal, some have been nasty, and mostly they're okay. But don't take a chance if you're a tourist. You're more than likely not insured if you're on a tourist visa. Take a car. That's what I did. Or take a jeep. You can do that too. Kerry Newsome : Yes, we can do a Jeep, we can do a bike. And I think definitely don't put that holiday at risk by riding a bike. As you and I both know, we've known tourists who've got themselves into some sticky situations because of that and you don't want that. You don't want that kind of trouble or that that thing to happen on any level. But certainly, as part of your trip, you just don't want any accidents or anything like that. So to minimise that, definitely. But you want the experience. You want that drive up there. You want that pinnacle view. It is just awesome. Absolutely. Sharon, I think we could go on to 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 easily. We could. I'm so, we could, we could. Hoi An definitely is up there as a big favourite with the tourists, so I know the top 10 is important because, you know, sometimes the traveller doesn't have all the time in the world. So to narrow it down to the top 10 things that they should do as must-dos, I'm so grateful for you to share your top 10 with us. And I'm sure the travellers are going to be able to relate to a lot of them. and hopefully put on their list of to-dos when they go. It was lovely having Sharon on the program. I'm sure that you found her insights into the top 10 must-do things in Hoi An helpful. Hoi An does offer a great many things to do, so when you do start your planning, allow some time to be able to enjoy those things because it's certainly a city in Vietnam that you should spend extra time in because of those things. Please reach out directly to whataboutvietnam@gmail.com for advice or if you wish a full trip plan to customised to you, we can do that too!. Simple go to https://www.whataboutvietnam.com/request-form Complete the form and we will have you on your way to Vietnam in no time. Thank you for listening

What About Vietnam S5-E21 Vietnam's Tet Holiday: Preparation and Tips for Tourists Kerry Newsome : Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. My name is Kerry Newsome and I am your host. I added that last bit to include my name as the host as I forget from time to time that you may be listening for the first time and that's kind of important that I make that distinction that I do host this podcast and I have been hosting it for coming up to five years in May 2025. So welcome to the podcast for everyone that's new. I hope you enjoy the shows that I put together over the last four and a bit years and hope to do many more in the future. For those that continue to support and subscribe and follow me through my social pages and through the show, send me feedback. Oh my gosh, I could go on. Just how rewarding it's been to work with you, to help you in your trip planning, inspire you with ideas of things to do, introduce you to places and experiences that I hope will really enrich your trip. And for those that I get to actually manage and put your whole trip together, Another big thank you for, you know, giving me that opportunity to bring that holiday to your experience in life and introduce you to Vietnam. But today we're talking about Tet and I wanted to put together just a really short and sharp detail on Tet to prepare you in the case that you are traveling to Vietnam during that Tet period. Now, for those of you who understand the Lunar New Year calendar, you're going to know very clearly that it differs from year to year. So, it's important that you have a look at the calendar for each year to differentiate it so that you understand the actual days that it falls, and that'll help you also understand what the lunar New Year's Eve will be and also what the New Year's Day will be. And that's kind of only part of the story. So, I've got eight tips in this show, but I just thought I'd lead with some of the most common questions that come up for people when they're thinking about Tet and, you know, just generally what you need to be prepared for. Firstly, it's kind of important that you get a grip on, it's not just a day or a couple of days like we have traditionally in the West for our New Year's Eve and our New Year's Day, or our Christmas Day, and that kind of holiday period. It's not like that at all. It is the biggest holiday in Vietnam, bar none. everybody gears up for Tet and for Vietnamese it is so special because they know it is their entitlement to have this holiday and they treat it with such reverence and respect and you know for many the The time they spend with family, the efforts that they go to to reconnect and to connect with people that are special in their lives is just, it's just tantamount to just so special. I've only experienced two Tets in Vietnam, both very different, but I didn't lose the main message, which is it's all about them. It's not about us as a tourist. And I think it's really important you get that firmly placed in your mind that going to Vietnam and traveling around in this period is taking into consideration that for Vietnamese, it is their main holiday and it is a minimum of nine days. So that would start from the day before New Year's Day. So, whatever date it falls on, count back the day before to get your New Year's Eve and then work about nine days. What you will find is that for some people, they will tend to take an extended break depending on what they can negotiate with their employers. And because employers understand the reverence of this period of time. And they also take into consideration that for many people, they're going to be leaving their city jobs and they're going to be traveling to, you know, possibly regions where they came from, which are far and wide. So, you're going to see lots of movement and I'm going to talk about that in my eight tips coming up. But be aware that there is a lot of movement around this time and gearing up for this time so people can be with their families to celebrate and to enjoy time together. So, work on about nine days from New Year's Eve. Now, the next question that comes up is, is it a good time to travel for a tourist? For us mere mortals that decide to visit Vietnam in this period of time. Personally, I have found the lead up to Tet more exciting, more vibrant in atmosphere. It's kind of contagious that you can feel that fever, you can see the colors of the flowers everywhere as people are cleaning their homes, preparing their homes, and getting really geared up to celebrate cooking up and doing all that stuff. So that once actually, you know, it hits, it goes very quiet. It just goes very quiet. And there will be very limited places that are open. And those that are open are usually with staff that either couldn't arrange, couldn't afford, just couldn't make it happen to travel. back to their families, so you've got kind of that skeleton staff. Maybe they've negotiated with their employer, you know, to earn some extra money during that time if they stay open. But by and large, in most cities, you're going to find a very fragmented level of openings. And all your major attractions, major restaurants, etc., are going to be closed. So, back to the question, is it a good time for you as a tourist to visit Vietnam? I think armed with that information, you can make your decision. I have experienced both TETs in two different cities. And yes, I did find the quietness difficult in the sense of unsure about what I could do. But, you know, if you're staying in a hotel, you can take advantage of the hotel facilities and really the best thing to do is to just take a big chill pill, to really chillax, take advantage of that luxury, go for walks on the beach, maybe use it yourself to take some time out to, you know, revisit some things that you'd like to do personally and set up for the year ahead. So I'll leave that one with you now that you're armed with that information. and secondly with my eight tips. The other question that comes up is about what's open and what's not. I can't really be definitive about that. People ask is Hoi An city closed? Well, the answer to that is no, it's not. There are lots of places within the Hoi An Old Town that will be, probably the majority, and from my experience, that's a bit hit and miss. I've often asked people to maybe check on the establishment's Facebook page to see if they have advertised their opening times. But just be aware that it'll be operating at lesser than normal opening times than what you would normally expect. Now, for each year also, people ask what the animal is going to be for the year ahead, because that also holds significance for all those that understand and appreciate the Chinese zodiac. So, say for example, 2025 is going to be the year of the snake. And with that comes some aspects of the snake as a zodiac animal, and inferences as what you can expect in the year ahead could be things like, you know, rebirth, intuition, and resilience. So it would be a year ahead for you to, you know, maybe be encouraged to do some deep thinking, maybe work on some personal growth. So there'll be, you know, and you'll be able to search all over Google to find everything to do with what the year ahead and the year ahead's animal dictates for you. So I just wanted to give you just that quick snapshot of just the, you know, the top questions that come up for Ted. As I said, I've got eight really top tips that are generic for every year. And I really encourage you to do your preparation and check those dates every year, especially around January and February, which is usually where the dates will fall. But where they fall each year, you know, there's calendars out there. to show you that for each year coming up. So, enjoy everyone. This is the last show for 2024. I'll be back in 2025, late January. I wanted to take this last opportunity to say a very big thank you for being my wonderful listening audience, for your feedback again. I wish you happiness, I wish you safety, I wish you travels to far and wide places that that bring you happiness and joy and experiences that will last you a lifetime. All the very best and I will see you in 2025. 8 tips for travelers in Vietnam during Tet. Number one, buy your travel tickets in advance and make sure when you're booking especially with things like flights, et cetera, that you do get your seat numbers and your allocations. Number two, be early at the airport or bus station or train station. I can't stress enough the need to be a bit of ahead of the game and be prepared for long queues. Number three, make sure you bring all of your travel documentation with you, confirming all your travel arrangements. Number four, don't expect too much activity once the day, the New Year's Day falls. There's a lot of lead up. I personally think that the lead up to Tet is the most exciting. There's just such a vibe in the air. There's an atmosphere. You'll see these beautiful kumquat trees, peach blossoms, and they will be lining the streets of your cities and your localities that you visit leading up to Tet. Number five, I really would like you to make sure that you check in with your hotel or your homestay about what services they are operating, you know, for meals and just, you know, things like laundry or just what eateries are going to be open on those national holidays in particular. may extend to things like, you know, your spa center, the gyms, anything that is depicted in your booking that is the standard may not be fully operational during the Tet season and in particular on the public holidays. And as I said, be prepared that in each area, in each location, and in each facility or hotel or homestay, they will make their own decisions based on their staff and their ability to accommodate you. They will make their own call on what's available. So be prepared to contact your homestay or contact your hotel ahead of your visit, well ahead of your visit, maybe even two or three weeks or a month ahead to ask them what their plan is during Tet as you will be arriving or you may be staying during that time and ask them to give you some clarification. Opps I forgot Number six.. Please forgive me. Number seven is around expectation of restaurants food quality, freshness and the extension of the menus. One thing I did find was a little bit of a warning from people that because of the movement of people that their standard suppliers may not be in full operational capacity. So their ability to get fresh food in and in particular, you know, seafood and things like that. So they sort of cautioned me to be careful about what I selected to see that the restaurants would probably be offering a much condensed menu and it would be built around what they felt they were most confident in offering. In managing this, you're going to have to read the play yourselves when you are out and about. You're going to kind of have to get your confidence from seeing how many people are in the restaurants, just how much staff they look like they're having on board. and use your common sense where you can to decide where to eat. Lastly is to make sure you've got enough cash. So my number eight tip is understanding that in the element of closures and organizations that close will be banks. Banks that also fill out the teller machines, etc. that are you know, quite prevalent in Vietnam. So making sure that you've got enough cash with you to get around, buy taxis, do whatever, I think is very important. So once again, I'm saying being prepared is the way to go. So I hope you found these tips helpful. And I'm going to just finish off by talking about what's possible in Vietnam post Tet. So once Tet is finished, there's a time where people are enjoying the opportunity to catch up with friends and family, and even reaching out to teachers and other principal people in their community that they want to pay respects for. I think you'll find that as Tet finishes, you'll see just a rejuvenation of the location that you're in. And, you know, expressing your gratitude to the people that you're meeting and mixing with, sharing with them some of the favorite foods, the Cheung cake in the north, the Tet cake in the south, are making sure that you express the special greetings that come with Chuc Nam Hoi is very appreciative of the Vietnamese. They will love that you have taken the time to understand a little bit about what Tet is about and that you recognize the importance for them, that you're respectful of their time to do this, their dedication to this, and I think you're going to really see a little bit about what the depth of Vietnam is in their cultural traditions and how beautiful they are. I'm going to put a few links in the show notes to help guide you with this. Please feel free to reach out to me directly if you have any further questions and I'm more than happy to help you. If you are trip planning, in the coming years. Please note those dates for Ted. And now that you have this information, I'm hoping that you'll decide whether or not, you know, it is for you to travel in this time period that it It suits you to do so or not. And as I said, it's really up to the individual to decide how they want to play it. For me, I tend to travel usually before Tet or after Tet so that I give the people their due in having Tet because it's really not about us as tourists, in my opinion. It's really about the Vietnamese themselves and giving respect to them for that time. So take that on board, use it as you can and how you will in the future for your trip planning. And I hope you're going to have a wonderful time. That's all we have for today. I look forward to bringing you more travel stories and insights into traveling to Vietnam in future programs.

What About Vietnam– S5- E20 Saigon Unseen: The Sights You Didn’t Know You Were Missing Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Well, people, here we are six weeks away from Christmas. I don't know about you, but I'm wondering where did the year go? It's been a terrific year. It's been a big year. It's been a busy year. I hope you've enjoyed the programs that we've been able to put on. I really want to extend a big thank you to everyone that follows the show. that sends me your feedback. I hope you gain some information to help you in your trip planning. As you know, I also offer the services of trip planning and I really do love putting those trips together for people and please reach out at whataboutvietnam.com for those services. Today we've got a really great program. I did something really different in this program. I took the risk of recording in an outside location, which is a restaurant in Saigon called The Refinery. While 90% of the recording was good, there is a little bit of background noise. And just as a bit of a heads up, I wanted to just ask for your forgiveness for a couple of spots towards the end of the show that aren't so great. I've done my best to edit those out, but if you'll just forgive those tiny little pieces there that aren't at my normal 100% perfect level that I would normally want to give. However, it hasn't taken anything away from the show. Just on the show schedule now for 24, we have this one and then one more before we wrap up for the end of the year. I will be taking an extensive break. The first show back for 25 will be at the end of January. So, you know, this show to go, one more, which is another great show to finish up the year, so hang in there. We've still got lots to tell you about Vietnam before we wrap up for 24. Now, launching into today's show, it was a really great opportunity, as I said, to try something different, to record outside. I got to meet this person who I've been following for quite a long time, and I'd like to tell you about my guest, Matt Cowan. Matt is the founder of The Bureau Asia , a media channel based in Saigon that he's been creating travel F&B and lifestyle content since 2018. You can find his content all over the web on YouTube, social media, podcast platforms and his website thebureauasia.com. Prior to becoming a media mogul, he was, I'm sure, a comedian in his past life. Matt was the managing editor of Saigon-based English language magazine Word Vietnam for a couple of years after he threw in his career as an educator at RMIT Vietnam, an Australian university with a campus in Saigon. He's also moonlighted for a number of magazines over the years, including Travel Plus Leisure Asia, Silver Chris, and that's your Singapore Airlines in-flight magazine, and others. And he still remains a pen for hire. If you wanted to reach out to him for his insights, his knowledge in the travel sector, F&B and lifestyle content, he would be your go-to guy. He's originally from Australia, from the Murray Valley region, which is just on the border of New South Wales and Victoria for Australians. So, you can imagine, and these are his words, he can be bought off very easily with a good cheese. Matt's been living in Saigon since 2010. and in that time has witnessed and reported on Vietnam's dynamic growth over the past 15 years. I got to meet him and his wife and it was very easy to tell that they really love Vietnam. In talking about his Vietnamese language skills, he's as bad as I am, it's an ongoing process. He says his knowledge of Vietnamese history and culture is getting better, however, not great at remembering names, dates and significant events. I told him that's okay. That's what Google's for. Matt loves Vietnam. He loves its people. And I think you're going to get a lot out of this show. We kind of really clicked. I loved my time with him. He's got some great insights to some parts of the city, which, you know, don't normally fit on your traditional visit map. So, you know, don't worry about trying to keep up with the show. There's lots of links to take you to this information. So, you're going to be able to access it easily when it comes to your visit and I just think you're just going to love the show. Let's welcome him to What About Vietnam. So here we are at the refinery in downtown Saigon and I'm very, very lucky this afternoon because I'm sitting here with a gentleman by the name of Matt Cowan. Matt Cowan : Matt, say hello. Yeah, hi. Hi, Kerry. Thanks for having me. It's an honor to be on your very special podcast that I've been listening to for a long time, by the way. I do tune in, as you say. Kerry Newsome : Well, like that in itself is an amazing feat. Matt Cowan: Yeah. I just hope I don't bore your listeners today. That's all. Kerry Newsome : No, we decided before this, you were the funny one. Remember, I was the serious one. You were very kind. No, you just have to be funny. Yeah, well, you're putting the pressure on. Matt Cowan : Yeah, yeah. Kerry Newsome : Hey guys, I just want you to, I don't know, get a better feel for Saigon in the sense that you have to dig a bit deeper to kind of get to the nitty gritty interesting kind of places. And interestingly enough, Mr Funny here tends to do that. scratch the surface. I said scratch decor. Matt Cowan : You've got to be careful though when you scratch here in this country. I've learnt that over the years. It may end up a trip to the doctor if you scratch a little too hard. Kerry Newsome: Yes, yes. Now be careful. So we're sitting in this beautiful, it's actually a French restaurant called The Refinery . And I've been here several times. It was Matt's decision to come here so I said yes to that very quickly. Matt Cowan : A little bit of history. Kerry Newsome : a little bit of history and I'm going to let Matt talk kind of about the bit of the history stuff because he's far cleverer than me. Matt Cowan: I'm actually not a historian. No. And I'm not actually very good with details. Kerry Newsome : No, but you're interesting. See, so that's okay. Matt Cowan : You can stay. That's two points already. I don't care. You can come back. Kerry Newsome : It's my show. You're on my show. Remember? Now over to you to talk a bit about this area. Matt Cowan: Thanks for dropping that on me. We're in the refinery as you said and just to give a little bit of background to the refinery. The refinery these days, if you say to people who live here, if you say, oh we're going to go to the refinery. It's a restaurant and bar. It's like a French brasserie, I think you would call it. It's like a French bistro kind of place. And I believe it's been open since about 2006. So, it's coming up on the 20 years. Nearly as long as I've been here, I think. No, 15. I've been here 15 years. And it's still here. Amazing. Yeah. And this was this precinct. was really where all the expats at that time would hang out. This building here that we're sitting in, I think it was actually part of the actual, well it's called the refinery because it was an opium refinery back in the day. So I believe in the late 1800s it was where the French government began refining opium and did whatever they did to it for consumption. So I think they imported most of it from India at the time. I think there was a little bit of opium grown here, and hence that's why the name refinery. And just for your listeners, if they do decide, if you guys do decide to come and eat here in this little precinct, There's a gate at the front on Hai Ba Trung Street. It's 74 Hai Ba Trung opposite the park higher. And if you look up at the top of the gate, there's still the opium motif that that was made out of, I don't know what, cast iron back in the day, I guess. And that's been there ever since this place has been open. So, what are we talking? How's your maths, Kerry? Oh, what are you talking about? 120, 160 years or something like that. So, yeah, and this… Because it's off the street. Kerry Newsome: That's what people need to understand. Yeah, there's a gate. There's an archway. Matt Cowan : Yeah. Kerry Newsome : And you have to walk down this little alley. Matt Cowan: That's right. Yeah. Kerry Newsome : And there's quite a collection of restaurants here. Matt Cowan: Yeah, yeah. Kerry Newsome : And it's kind of the first on your left. Matt Cowan: It's a very typical sort of gate of that period. So, if you can imagine back in the day when everything was horse and cart and that sort of thing. So, you know, they had to bring the horses and carts in here to pick up stuff. And when you're walking around town in the older parts of town, you still see a lot of gates like this. But this one in particular is quite unique because it was part of the opium refinery. And as I said, the cast iron motif at the top still has the opium poppies, which is quite intricate and quite beautiful. And I think that you can see it there, Kerry, but I'm just pointing out to Kerry here, there's a, what do you call those, a blind and the logo for the refinery is actually an opium poppy. Kerry Newsome : If, these walls could talk. Matt Cowan : Oh yeah. A little bit further down, there's another restaurant, a Vietnamese restaurant there that your listeners might want to check out one day and it's called Hoa Thuc, which basically means flowers. Kerry Newsome : And there's a nice little bahn mi stand just next door. It's kind of like, it looks like a little caravan that they kind of lift up the doors and make bahn mi from. I love the decor here too. Matt Cowan : Oh, it's a great little spot. It's really cute. I actually came here for lunch a few months ago because with We'll probably get to it eventually, you know, the development of Vietnam and Saigon over the last decade or so has meant that I haven't come to these places so much and now that I've been here a long time, I'm sort of looking to get a little bit more nostalgic, so I came back here for lunch and I walked in and I just went, wow, this is sort of a step back in time, you know, you get a little bit of that French feel. Just before we move on, I was going to mention that back in the day, Mel and I, my wife's here, you know, taking photos of us and that, upstairs was a nightclub. So we used to go up there. It was called Vasco's nightclub. And that was the place where all the expats used to get together on whatever night of the week it was. And yeah, and there weren't too many places to go. Kerry Newsome : Typically back in those days, possibly the place to go would have been above the Caravelle, the rooftop bar there. That was pretty the hot spot to go for a nightlife and a lot of expats, etc. But yeah, keep going. Matt Cowan : Yeah, definitely anywhere that's a five-star hotel back in the day, you know, like when I first came here. So yeah, 2010, the beginning of 2010, there wasn't a hell of a lot of things to do even then, you know, we're talking 2010, you know, a weekend sort of staycation was all you could really do and it was go to say the Park Hyatt or the Sheraton or the Caravelle, have their buffet lunch and then hang by the pool for the rest of the day. There wasn't too much to do but there's a lot of things that have changed, lots of things to do now. Kerry Newsome : And I think maybe there was a preconception that you know, you fly into Saigon, and really it was the stepping point to other places in Vietnam. It was just too city-fied, people were overwhelmed with its busyness, et cetera, and there really wasn't enough info out there. As you said, 2010, it wasn't as civilized and as cosmopolitan, would you say it is now? Matt Cowan: Yep, for sure. Something happened around 2014, I think it was, I think, the Vietnamese government became signatories to a number of international trade agreements. So that sort of opened things up a bit. And then we saw the craft beer boom sort of around then. 2014 was when Pasteur Street first came onto the scene. Some of your listeners might be some of your listeners who are beer drinkers. I'm sure there's a few. they're probably familiar with Pasta Street and also the restaurants and that that came as well and it just built and built and built until the pandemic but we won't talk too much about that. Kerry Newsome : Well we'll have to at some point but I think the evolution of Saigon has been an interesting one as when even now when I'm talking to people and I'm building it into a an itinerary and I'm suggesting to stay extra days, there is a little bit of pushback by everyone saying, oh, do we really need to stay there? And I go, just give it a chance. But as you say, it's not on the surface. I mean, you're going to get a list of the, you know, what are the top five things to do that are going to be in you know, the Unification Palace and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But there's a lot more to that. And pretty much, that's why you're here, Matt, because I've been following you and how you've been, as you say, scratching below the surface to uncover the really cute, natty places. And that's what I want my listeners to get about this place. So knock yourself out with those places. Matt Cowan: Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. To a large extent, Ho Chi Minh City is still seen as that city where you either fly into or fly out of. I get that. And as a long-term resident here, I totally understand, you know. There's motorbikes everywhere. The footpaths are overtaken by motorbikes and street sellers. And if you happen to survive that, you'll roll your ankle. You know, the air quality is not so great. Take your mask off, Kerry. No, she hasn't got a mask on at the moment. But this time of year moves into, even though it's the best time of the year weather-wise, moving into December, It's also the build-up to Tet, the Tet holiday, and sometimes the air quality gets pretty bad, so January sort of into February it can, because the factories really the manufacturing places nearby really whip into gear before Tet. So that can be an issue and I get that, but having said all that, I still believe Saigon, Ho Chi Minh City, is the best city in Vietnam. Wow, big statement. I'm a little bit biased, but I've had an opportunity to scratch beneath the surface and find out a little bit more. I was thinking about this on the way in, and it may be nothing new, but it's all about the people. Saigon is about the people. If you can in some way connect with the people, your stay is just going to be so much better. How do you do that? Well, I suppose come with an open mind and try things. Kerry Newsome : And I think what I like most about what you've been doing with your YouTube and with your podcast is talking to people about the history of this place, but in finding it in places like cafes and architecture and kind of the ambiance. Matt Cowan : The sort of the Indochina kind of thing. Kerry Newsome : Lost in translation kind of guy thing. Matt Cowan : Well, I mean that, how do I say this? Vietnam was colonized by the French. And so these days to sort of glorify the colonial days is perhaps not the thing to do. You know, it wouldn't be happening in Australia probably or in other sort of Western countries around the world. But we've got a, we're up to Generation Z now, I think it is, or Generation whatever they are. Kerry Newsome : I get lost in the alphabet. Matt Cowan : And that, you know, that was a million years ago for those guys and so what we, a little bit of a trend we're seeing at the moment is new cafes and bars opening up, cocktail, there's a lot of cocktail bars here by the way, if you love cocktails, I mean, you've come to the right town. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, I've just spent two weeks here so I think I can vouch for that. Matt Cowan: Oh, that's why you've got the bloodshot eyes. Kerry Newsome : Thanks, Matt. Now you know why I stick to audio and I don't do visual. So tell your wife to turn that camera off. Matt Cowan : But yeah, a lot of, you know, when you come here, you'll discover a lot of cafes and bars that are fairly new and they're harking back to that Indochina vibe, which to me, I love. To be honest, yeah. Dark places, all that lovely, you know, the interior, the French vibes, you know. So, there's a whole lot to discover here in that sense and despite what you hear probably on social media and in the media that, you know, so many of the French buildings are getting torn down and all that sort of stuff. There are actually still a lot of the big apartment blocks that were French built. They're looking a bit tired and weary and stuff like that and a bit smelly. But if you take the time to go in off the street, don't mind, remember we were in Chinatown the other day and you said, oh, I feel like I'm prying into their personal life. Kerry Newsome : Into a neighborhood, into a collective. Matt Cowan : Yeah, don't worry about that. Head in. head in and get up the stairs and have a look around because what you'll find is you know sort of three to four level apartment blocks that essentially hold communities and I'm talking hundreds of people maybe even thousands and where young people have come in the latest generation has come in and they've either traveled or they're better educated. They've come back to their hometown. They're like, okay, I'm going to open up a coffee shop or I'm going to open up a cocktail bar. And they do it. Kerry Newsome : Yeah. And one of the most typical ones, which, uh, you know, is like Instagram fave is the cafe building. Right now, if that, you saw that building in the U S or Australia or whatever, it would be demolished. Right. even to get into it and go up the stairs. Matt Cowan : There were rumors that they were going to pull that down back in the day. Guess what? They haven't. And you know why? Kerry Newsome : It's because it's turned into a major tourist attraction. But what I think I want to stress with just something that Matt's talking about some of these places, they are kind of down dingy alleys. I don't know where you hang out, Kerry. Yes, you actually do because you and I nodded to a lot of the places that we knew in the last few days. Matt Cowan : I know nothing. Kerry Newsome : So, don't give me that. Anyway, but apart from that also, you're not going to see a tourist bus with 40 people pile out in front of it. Matt Cowan: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, good point. Kerry Newsome : It's for the people who really hang around and spend some time to delve in that. Now, you can still be in that group with the bus and people and the 25 people and whatever, and you'll see the stock standard, tick, tick, tick, tick, the boxes, et cetera. But that's only a poof dink of what there is. And I think that's what Matt's trying to say in that. Matt Cowa n: I'm just on that apartment, apartment 42, isn't it? On Winway Street. Interesting that you raised that because About two years ago, I did a video with a local architect. He's a little bit older than me, not too much older than me, but lived here all his life, actually lived in District 1 in this neighborhood. And we did a video together about the Continental Hotel, which is quite famous and a lot of your listeners will be aware of. The Quiet American , the novel, and of course the movies, and Graham Greene, who was the author of that, and he famously stayed in room 214, which Mal and I, Mel, my wife, we stayed in that room a couple of years ago, and I did a video in there. did a bit of a walk around, but I also invited my friend who's the architect to come and talk about the building and talk about the area. Anyway, we've just been in touch and we're going to have lunch next week because we're going to do a video on that very building you're talking about, apartment 42. He's got a lot of knowledge about that and history about that particular building. Kerry Newsome : And it's a funky building in the sense that, you know, you keep climbing the stairs and, you know, you don't know what you're going to do. Matt Cowan: You can pay for the lift for anyone who needs a lift. Have you seen that lift, Matt, recently? It's one of those old French style. It's a cage, isn't it? It's a glorified cage. Kerry Newsome: And then if it got stuck, I'd just, you know, I'd do the stairs. I'll tell you another building is the CatNet building, right next to the new playground. Right. Have you, have you been in there? It's got a Kong cafe right on the corner and it's another mysterious, wild, up, up round stairs. Matt Cowan : I don't know. I get this wrong all the time. The old CIA building. I don't think it was the CIA building. It was the residences for CIA staff, I believe. Someone will correct us in the comments. But it's the spot where the famous photo where the chopper Landed on the day. No, that's not the building. Kerry Newsome : I know you're showing off. Like, sit down. Matt Cowan: It's not too far from here actually. We probably should have got a chopper to lift us in. Of course, that's just what we need. Drop us in and we could have done this podcast there. Kerry Newsome : A little bit of chopper noise in the background just to add more authenticity to us. Matt Cowan: I don't know if anyone would have heard anyway. Kerry Newsome : Anyway, the Catanat building, for everyone else who wants a simplified where is it, it's opposite H&M. You cross over the road and you go through this art dealers kind of thing and then you walk up the stairs. Matt Cowan: Yeah, that's the one where the Comme Café is on the bottom, on the corner, or the Catinat Building is on the corner and there used to be a Cong Café. Cong Café in the building. Yeah. For anyone who's into war history and, you know, the very famous photo that was taken April 29, I think it was, the day before the fall of Saigon. Rooftop is still there. I've been up there. There was a time when you could get up there and you could also pay the security guy to get you up there. Of course you could, Matt. Kerry Newsome : Yeah. Okay, so moving right along, can we talk a little bit about some of the history that comes through in places like the Opera House and some of the shows they put on there? Because I don't think we talk about that enough. I'll start with the one I know, which is the AO. Matt Cowan: Oh, I haven't done that one. I haven't been to that in all these years. Kerry Newsome : But the one you have done is the Tadar. Yeah, Tadar show. So maybe talk to my listeners about the Tadar. Matt Cowan : It was a little while ago, but an amazing show. Yeah, very Cirque du Soleil. And it's done by a troupe of dance, I suppose you call them a troupe, a troupe of dancers from the Central Highlands, somewhere around near Ducklack, I think, or something like that. And it's just a very acrobatic, How else can I? Systematic, no, acrobatic. The choreography's amazing. The choreography's amazing. And all the props are made out of bamboo, so they're manoeuvring these massive… I don't know, artefacts and yeah, boats and big circular things and whatever else made out of bamboo. And it's super daring. It's eye opening. If you get a chance, make sure you go and see it. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, I think it's a definite thing to do, which doesn't get mentioned that much. Matt Cowan: Yeah, funny that. Kerry Newsome : I mean, there's a massive opera house there that the show is featured on. For everyone listening, just be careful on the dates because it doesn't play every day of the year. Matt Cowan : It moves around. Sometimes they go on tour. They go overseas. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, and Hanoi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they are part of the same troop which is the A.O. show. I personally think the A.O. show is just a step up. And it's been going a lot longer. But it definitely does move around. And I think the company that runs it is called Lune. I'll put a link in the show notes for people to just check your calendars if you're here. You know, I think the whole family would get something out of it. It's really quite special. Matt Cowan : Really great chance to see the Opera House as well. And inside a tip, the comfiest seats in town. Oh, that's handy to know. Because there's not many comfy seats around in this city. There's none. So try and get yourself into the Opera House. Just outside the hop-on hop-off bus. I've seen it. I haven't done it. There's a little ticket booth just outside the front of the Opera House. Kerry Newsome: So you can just wander up there and the buses pull up across the street. I never do on-off buses. I know I should, but I don't. I want to make it hard for myself, obviously. But people say it's a really good summarising opportunity to them to see it. And they don't have to walk in the sweaty day or whatever. They can sit on the top deck and get a suntan. Matt Cowan : You've got to pick your time of day, otherwise you'd fry. You've got to sit inside. I think I've done it a couple of times now and I think we chose around about, well, depending on the season. So we're moving into the best season for tourists at the moment. Christmas in Saigon is the best time weather-wise and also a little bit of a festive atmosphere as well. The Vietnamese don't sort of, yeah, they don't celebrated in a religious sense so much and so great time for the double-decker bus and to sit up on top. Kerry Newsome : And you kind of got to fit it in people because you don't want to miss out on happy hours. You've really got maybe somewhere about three to four maybe do you think? It's about an hour trip, is that right? Matt Cowan: Yeah, it's about, well actually they've extended it as well. You can go into Chinatown now as well. So I haven't done that yet. But Mel and I have done it, the original one, and I think we went about four o'clock. Again, depending on the time of year. So, we're in Vietnam, we're moving into winter. So, you know, shorter daylight hours. It's usually dark at 6 p.m. anyway, isn't it? Usually around here. Yeah. Kerry Newsome : And you want it to be dark at 6 p.m. Matt Cowan: Yeah. So, it's not a bad idea to get the bus at about 4.30 if you can, if there's one going at that stage. So, then it moves into the twilight and then the lights come on. Kerry Newsome: I think Saigon is a night city. Oh. I think the city… Well, it's a lot easier on the eye. We're in a taxi. In some places, it's a lot, lot easier on the eye because some people kind of come out of the woodwork. Matt Cowan : Yeah. Kerry Newsome : Do you know… Yeah, there's some characters that come out. Matt Cowan : Oh, you know about that. You've just… Oh, they don't get around. Like, seriously. You've just taken one off my list. Kerry Newsome : I did that the other night with a friend of ours and it turned out to be, yeah. And I'd never done Bowie Vinn either. So it was a big night. So we did Bui Vinh I was like, from the start to the finish, I was, I'd done that in 15 minutes. But I got in early, I got in early, out early. Matt Cowan : But then we, when then we did the Japan… You might have to go to that hospital you keep telling me about to get some new ears. Kerry Newsome : Look, I save that for special occasions, that hospital, to get special work done. We can definitely talk about Japan Street, but talk about Chinatown. I loved what we did the other day. Matt Cowan : Well, this might be where I get to put a little bit of a plug in, because actually I took you on a small section of a walk that I've created. And so, you know, obviously you'll leave a link to that. But people can access that. That's a self-guided walk that you can do. So you don't need anybody. You just access it through one of my websites or whatever, which is easy, and just follow the prompts along. And there's a few little photos and stuff like that, and a few little explanations. And there's a map. Your time's finite, and same with your money and stuff like that. And so it's like, I don't really want to miss anything. We're calling it Japantown because there's a lot of Japanese sort of small restaurants. If you've been to Japan, you'll know izakayas, so they're sort of little snack bars there. There are, well, you're staring at me earlier, Carrie. Little sort of massage places and little bars where you can, what would you, how would you? No, I don't know how you'd say it, Matt. You would get a companion to sit with you. Buy a companion a drink, not buy a companion. Let's get that straight. Kerry Newsome: I think you'd buy them for more than just a drink. Matt Cowan : Well, I don't know. I don't know. I can't comment any further than that. This is a G-rated show. If you want the X-rated version, go to Patreon. No, my website isn't like that. Yes, so a lot of the Japanese expats will live there. So Vietnam has a lot of Japanese workers who come who are in construction. They do the engineering on skyscrapers. They build roads and bridges and stuff like that. So they've been responsible for a lot of the infrastructure development in Vietnam over the last couple of decades. And of course, when you've got groups of people, you want to generally speaking, kind of hang out with your own to a certain extent and get the food and the drink that you're used to and the massages, I suppose, that you're used to from back home. And a little bit of care and attention. And over the years, it's developed into a bit of a Japan town. But before that, We actually used to call it the ghetto because expats new to town would wind up there. That was where there was accommodation. The landlords were used to having foreigners live with them and they sorted out their, you know, their residence stuff there. rental agreements and leases and all that sort of stuff. But over time, over the last decade or so, it's evolved into this sort of almost like a red light entertainment. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, I was wondering whether those words were going to come out red and light together. Matt Cowan : Or if you're Japanese listening to this, pink. Kerry Newsome : It's like a maze, isn't it? It's a rabbit warren of little alleys. We were actually looking for, I think, a famous bar or some guy who was involved in a bar called The Power. Matt Cowan : Oh, OK. Kerry Newsome : I saw him on a YouTube channel the other day. And it was nothing like I expected. Matt Cowan : It looks a bit like a gentleman's bar. Let's put it that way. Kerry Newsome : Well, there wasn't even any gentleman there. Matt Cowan: Right. Kerry Newsome: It was dead as a doornail. Matt Cowan : What time was that? Kerry Newsome : Oh, probably about nine. Matt Cowan: Yeah, a little bit early. Probably a little bit early. Yeah. Yeah. And you're not really the demographic. No, thankfully. But then you moved on to Bui Vien Street, which is the backpacker area, Pham Nhu Lao area. Kerry Newsome: And that was just, as Matt's saying, you know, that's about ticking a box for me. I literally, from the archway that it begins to the archway, I reckon I hightailed that. I did that in about 15 minutes, 20 minutes. And as you say, demographically, that's not for me either. I stood out like the proverbial. Matt Cowan: It's worth having a look though, isn't it? Kerry Newsome : Look, the food here is so diverse. I get challenged with my clients in trying to describe the cuisine and the choices available in Saigon. Like, people say, oh, what happens if I don't like Vietnamese? That won't be a problem because there's Japanese, there's Greek, there's Italian, Like, you name it, it is here in Saigon and good quality and well-priced. Matt Cowan: Yeah. Kerry Newsome : There's plenty. So, yeah. So, I think and the cakes are like, I've got a girlfriend who recently had some surgery and as I said, we'll talk about that. But all she could eat was something very Ah, soluble and soft. So, she went for the cake. So, I have got some beautiful places to list out for you to explore as far as cake shops. Buttery - https://www.facebook.com/butterycakecafe/ Ivoire - https://www.facebook.com/ivoirepastry/ Matt Cowan: And that's the French history still hanging around, you know. It's a beautiful thing. And other things that are sort of French that you'll find, and especially deep into the outer districts as well, are flans. Kerry Newsome: Oh, okay. Matt Cowan : Yeah, there's a long tradition of flan here. So, the little, they're like the little custard tarts and stuff like that. Yes. You get the caramel flan or whatever. So, you'll be driving, you don't really see them so much in District 1, District 3, but if you go over the canal to District 4, there's a street there, all the other districts really. But eventually you'll come across someone who's got a little stand on wheels and they'll be selling flan and little sort of custard tartlets, little pastry on the outside and then the egg tart in the middle. And you just whack one of those back and get going. What advice am I going to give people? And probably, as I said at the beginning of the episode, was about the people. The people make this country. They make this city, you know? So, OK, you need your guard up. As a traveller, you need to take care of your things, take care of your bag, take care of everything else. Make sure you don't get run over crossing the street or whatever. But other than that, Be open to people approaching you and having a chat. The Vietnamese, I lived in Japan for three years, 25 years ago. And the Japanese really are not into speaking English. They're not great at it, generally speaking. It's very rare to be able to walk up the street and say, hey, can you help me in English? And someone will answer. Whereas here, it might be a lady on the street pushing a trolley. up a sort of a hill in the midday sun and you stop her and say, hey, can you show me where this cafe is or whatever and they'll have a go at it. Kerry Newsome : I'm a bit like you. I really do try to encourage my travelers to engage where they can. And people say, you know, well, how do I do that? And you can start with your reception staff at your hotel. They are your first point of contact. You'll probably find that they have a little bit more English at their disposal. I have had the most amazing relationships formed by getting to know the reception staff at various hotels. The other thing I'd encourage you to do is to do something that they will need to speak to you about, like a cooking class. And sometimes you'll, you know, engage with, I mean, I've got a very, very dear friend that started, she ran that cooking class. We just formed a relationship. The next thing she was sending me a text message at the end of the afternoon said, you know, what are you doing this afternoon? Would you like to meet up for a coffee? Would you like to go for a glass of wine, because I'd obviously shared with her I like a glass of wine. And, you know, we went from there. And I was then able to, you know, spend time with her and see Vietnam through her eyes. And that was just invaluable. Matt Cowan : Yeah. And you've just reminded me, one way to feel a part of the city and if you're brave enough, get on the back of a motorbike. Absolutely. It's one way that you can really feel like you're part of the crowd and while we're on it, there's just a couple of motorbike tours Can I mention them? Sure. That I'd recommend. One is Vesper Adventures . Definitely, I've done it and it's a great tour. It's really cool. Kerry Newsome : And then Vesper's a bike, an interesting bike in itself and it's probably only going to go about 40 k's an hour. Matt Cowan : They also do a craft beer pub crawl as well so you can book one of those if you want to do that, if you're into that. Another one, a young guy, he has one called Yes Ride. as well. So, they're young kids who get around, you know, early 20s or something like that, locals. So, that's really cool. Have we got time to just quickly, I've got a little list here of a couple of things. Go for the list. I kind of forgot about it. Okay. So, one other thing, if you're into history, in Saigon. One of the things on my list that I did, you know, the 25 things to do is eat in locations that are historic, just so you can sort of soak it in. And obviously the refinery is one of those. Another one is the Continental Hotel, which we mentioned, the Graham Green Hotel. So if you're a bit of a bookworm and, you know, nostalgic and stuff like that, you can sit there. And actually on Sundays, I think it is. Often on Sundays, the vintage cars will come out and they'll just park there. And the guys who have got these really old vintage cars, they'll want to show off their cars to people and they just park them there and people come along, take photos and you can have some sex on the beach or a blue lagoon or, you know, those old school cocktails back in the 70s. I mean, I wasn't around then, but you might remember. Another one, I just mentioned Tan Din before, where the pink church is. Not too far up the road there's a pho place, pho noodle soup place called Pho Bin. And it was a Viet Cong safe house during the war. And that's where they orchestrated the attack on the US embassy in 1968 for the Tet Offensive. And so what you can do is you can go there and have a bowl of fur. And then for a small fee, you can go upstairs and they've still got the room set up basically how it was back in 1968. And so it was a cover for all the, you know, the top brass to go up there and have meetings and stuff like that. And there's photos around of the father of the sons who still own the place. The sons are, you know, probably in their 70s now or something like that. And there's old photos there. So you can sort of soak it in a bit. And not too far away is a place called Cafe Dolfo. And it was also a similar sort of place. And Kerry, I think, I'll send you a, I'll give you a link and map location, stuff like that. And it's a quite a cool little spot to go because it was another one of those places that was sort of, you know, during the war, under everybody's noses, you know, the spies were coming in and out. And then allegedly across the street, there was a Korean army, you know, soldiers barracks and the soldiers, the Korean soldiers used to go in there and have breakfast. Little did they know that it was actually a VC safe house, sending messages and listening in to their conversations. And that's still there. And it's a national relic. So and it's free. to check out. So, yeah, but there's a whole lot of other things and if I think of them all, I'll let you know. Kerry Newsome: The great thing about talking with you, Matt, is that you've got a library of links, YouTube videos, bits and bobs. Matt Cowan : I'm glad because my memory's going. Kerry Newsome : I was actually thinking of coming to talk to you. How's he going to remember all that? And then I thought, no, it doesn't matter because, you know, there's that thing called the World Wide Web and it means that I can send links to you. But don't worry listeners if you think oh God I need to keep up with this or I need to read this very, very long transcript which it's turning out to be. I'm going to put some links in. You're going to be able to go straight to Matt's pages and his YouTube videos. Matt Cowan : On the other occasion I do a podcast as well as a podcast, the Bureau Asia podcast. That's how I found you Matt if you remember. Kerry Newsome : So, anything to wrap up with that we want to leave people with as far as Saigon? Matt Cowan: I just think if you're coming to Saigon, try not to think of it as a, you know. Leapfrog. Yeah. Spend a bit more time. Spend a few nights here. I think three nights might At least do it. Come with an open mind. Do everything in the morning or in the evening. Leave the middle of the day for you back at the hotel and have your nana nap or whatever. I'm big on that because the heat creeps up on you and then next thing you're ready to pass out. Kerry Newsome : And pick a time of year. Matt Cowan : Yeah, that's right, yeah. And typically I tell people around about Christmas, the end of the year is good for Saigon. Not too sure what it's like in Hanoi, pretty chilly that time of year, isn't it? Kerry Newsome: Getting December, January, it's starting to cool off dramatically, yeah, it drops because, you know, you're up near the China border and, you know, it's a totally different… But all the storms are pretty much done by then. Matt Cowan: Yes, it's just cold. You know, this time of year, Nha Trang tends to cop it a little bit. We get a bit of rain here this time of year, but… Kerry Newsome : No, Saigon is good. Okay Matt, thanks for being on the show. It's been great to have you. I really appreciated Matt coming on the program. As promised, you'll find a lot of the links to Matt's website and his social media platforms, including his podcast. We mentioned a few different places to visit in Saigon. I'll also include those links. So please go to the website whataboutvietnam.com to find those or check your podcast channel for information and the transcript. Thank you and I look forward to sharing more Vietnam travel stories next episode. Please enjoy some of the topics we managed to cover during the show. 00:07:03 - Exploring Saigon's Hidden Gems 00:08:16 - History of The Refinery 00:10:33 - French Colonial Architecture in Saigon 00:12:47 - Nightlife and Expat Hangouts 00:14:06 - Saigon's Evolution and Modernization 00:17:07 - Connecting with Saigon's People 00:18:10 - French Colonial Influence in Modern Cafes and Bars 00:20:05 - Exploring Historic Apartment Buildings 00:23:21 - Famous Historical Sites and Buildings 00:25:28 - Cultural Shows at the Opera House 00:27:47 - Hop-On Hop-Off Bus Tours 00:30:01 - Saigon as a Night City 00:31:04 - Exploring Japantown and Chinatown 00:40:04 - Motorbike Tours in Saigon 00:41:08 - Historic Dining Locations 00:45:06 - Best Time to Visit Saigon Links as mentioned for you to explore further:- Continental Hotel video with architect Hoanh Tran (The Bureau Asia YouTube Channel) https://youtu.be/YBqwIGvOuXw?si=lYVTgbhtjT5kRTR_ Cho Lon Self-Guided Walk (The Bureau Asia Substack Mailing List) https://thebureauasia.substack.com/p/cho-lon-self-guided-morning-walk The best places to EAT, PLAY, LOVE in HCMC in 2024 (links out to the 25 Things to Do in HCMC video) https://thebureauasia.com/2024/03/30/the-best-places-to-eat-play-love-in-ho-chi-minh-city-in-2024/ Then & Now - Saigon 20 Years On (The Bureau Asia Podcast) https://podcasts.apple.com/vn/podcast/then-now-saigon-20-years-on/id1478396971?i=1000656875461 The Bureau Asia Facebook Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/thebureauasiagroup Opera House shows https://www.luneproduction.com/ Follow us on facebook here - https://www.facebook.com/whataboutvietnam Follow us on Insta here - https://www.instagram.com/whataboutvietnampodcast/ Follow us on LinkedIN here - https://www.linkedin.com/company/what-about-vietnam/

S5-E14 - Phong Nha - The family fun destination with something for everyone Kerry Newsome : Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Today I'm going to be broaching a subject that seems to be coming up more and more for me as I'm working with travellers, new travellers in particular to Vietnam. And that's a growing trend around families travelling to Vietnam for their holidays. It's probably only come to the fore mostly in the last 12 to 18 months, but I do see a growing trend of Westerners really looking for a holiday destination where their kids can come and experience a different culture. They can discover and learn a little bit of history. And, you know, they can get distracted from their tablets and their devices and get their heads out of that. In particular, I've had some very encouraging feedback from some clients. you know, saying their kids, whilst they were a bit ambivalent about coming, they got here, they had a great time. And, you know, words like epic holiday and just the best time. We got to do things, you know, we never get to do at home. Even mum and dad did things that we just never thought that they would do. And one of the places that seems to grab that kind of experience and really highlight it is Phong Nha. And today I'm lucky to be joined by Ben Mitchell, who not only is a family man, but also runs the Phong Nha Farmstay, and on a daily basis is meeting and greeting families and helping them get a better understanding of the region and, you know, doing what he can and sharing his knowledge to help make their trip really worthwhile and really extra special. So I'd like to welcome Ben to the show. Ben Mitchell: Thanks Kerry Kerry Newsome: Okay, so for everybody, let's start with the basics, like when we talk about Vietnam and we talk about the main stops on a tourist map, where does Phong Nha sit in relation to that and what's the best way to get there? Ben Mitchell : Well, Phong Nha is located in northern central Vietnam. Pretty well halfway between Hoi An, another family favourite, and Hanoi, which is the hub of visiting all the different areas in the north. Kerry Newsome: Like for me, this trip, I decided to go to and then I came across by train. And that was a cinch. That was into Dong Hoi, then got picked up by car, and I'm here in like 35 minutes. So we know that we can get to Dong Hoi, which is the main city by air, it's a proper airport, so you can fly from Hanoi or you can fly from Saigon into Dong Hoi. train, the reunification train runs top to bottom, so you can pick that up in various places to come to Dong Hoi, once again, very easy and a comfortable train. Number three is private car, so that's an option. And I have done that for some of my travellers so that, you know, maybe they're a big family group or their family you know, is coming with a second family. So there's two families traveling together. So it might be more economic and more, you know, palatable to them to come by, you know, a small mini bus and that to get to here. But it's, while it's not on the tourist map, it's not that far off the tourist map. Would you agree? Ben Mitchell : Yeah, it is. Dong Hoi is our gateway, so we've got the airport there connecting us with Saigon and Hanoi. The train station, as you say, it's a good place to break the journey between the north and the central of Da Nang. It's 35 minutes with a private car from Dong Hoi station or airport out to us at Phong Nha. As far as those public transport ways of getting in and out, I would say the train and the plane are good. The buses, I'm not sure I'd put my family on the local buses or the overnight buses. They call them sleeper buses. It's a bit of an oxymoron. You don't get much sleep, but they are very cheap. And they are very convenient because, you know, getting from Ninh Binh or Hanoi to Phong Nha, they bring you straight in and out of here. The same with heading south. So cheap and convenient, but probably not the best way to do it. As far as getting south from here, a lot of the best things to see are in between these destinations of Phong Nha, Hue, Hue, Da Nang or Hoi Hoi An. So by getting a private car, you can actually visit some of these really cool places in between, which is not possible if you're on the train or the bus or obviously flying over the top. Kerry Newsome : I want to set up everybody. So when you're thinking about coming to Vietnam and you're wanting to know, plan out your trip, how many days you've got to spend. I just want to make sure that you consider this as a destination that you probably need to allow a few days to really take it in, to enjoy it at a pace. So I'm going to get Ben to talk a bit more about that. But ahead of that, I also want to talk to you about the safety angle. Now, a lot of people think about caving and they think about trekking and jungles and, you know, all of that kind of aspect of a place. They consider that, oh, they might have to have a level of fitness or health or, you know, all of that side of thing. I really don't want you to consider that or see that as a hindrance to come here. Sure, you're going to have to think about age groups and whether you can withstand certain levels of heat or you've got some levels of endurance, but you don't have to be a health freak or you don't have to be super fit to come here. There's all different levels of experience, but you also have to check out things like your travel insurance and things like that. Can you speak a little bit more to that, Ben, because that safety bit does come up a fair bit. Ben Mitchell : Yeah, there's the safety aspect of it with caving. And a lot of people sort of go, oh, caves? Oh, hang on. No, we won't be going there. We're about holidaying in Vietnam. We're not cavers. A lot of people go, cave? I've heard about that. It's $3,000. And it takes, like, multiple days to do. So we won't be going there. But Phong Nha does have a lot more to offer for the tourist, traveller, visitor, family travel. It has a lot more to offer than just coming here for caves. As far as safety goes, all of the different activities in the area to do with the National Park and the caving are heavily monitored by the government. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and I mean, like, you know, I'm going to take for granted that everybody that listens to my show has got really good level of common sense. So you're going to come equipped with, you know, hats, slip, slop and slap as far as sunscreens are concerned, maybe some bug spray, you know, like good walking shoes, you know, just making sure you've got comfortable gear to get around in to do these kind of things. But don't think you've got to do any pre-setup or pre-exercise or anything prep-wise to come and experience this because you're going to see all levels, all sizes, all age groups experiencing different aspects of the park, as Ben said, and also of the caves. And, you know, at my age, I certainly, you know, thought, you know, I better make sure I'm kind of at my best level of fitness, but I really found it very easy and we're going to talk more about that in a minute. What I do want to talk about and really pick Ben's brains about is the range of activities here. Because as he said before, it's not just about the caves. The caves is definitely its drawcard and it's certainly where Vietnam tourism painted and really put the focus on. But there's so much more. So Ben, let's kind of spread our wings here and talk about some of the broad range of activities that are available to families here. Ben Mitchell : Two things I'd say. One is that There's something here for everyone, no matter what your level of adventure is or your level of mobility. And the other thing is that Phong Nha really has what is the essence of the atmosphere of rural Vietnam. 15, 16 years ago, I used to love going to Hoi An and jumping on a bicycle and riding around through the delta behind Hoi An, through the rural countryside, all the farming and the little laneways and things. Over the years, that area has become very heavily developed nowadays and it's very different to what it was like back then, but coming here, it very much has that feeling of when you walk out the front of your homestay or your hotel or your farmstay or your accommodation, Yeah, you're in Vietnam, in rural Vietnam, and to walk out of the village even and around the village is quite a, or bicycling through the countryside to different locations like the Bong Lai Valley. You can soak up Vietnam. Everywhere you look, it's a photo opportunity of timeless Vietnam. As far as the caves and the National Park go, I wouldn't say to come here and just focus on getting to this cave and that cave, because often The best part of the whole day trip of getting out to these places is the actual trip itself. Getting around the area and looking at the scenery and learning about the history. It's got a lot more to offer than just we've got to get to this cave or that cave and then move on to the next part of Vietnam sort of thing. Kerry Newsome : And, you know, that, Ben, really was my experience as well. I mean, just getting on the back of a bike. Now, there might be a lot of people that say, oh, gee, you know, I wouldn't get on a motorbike. Well, Ben and I have had a bit of a laugh about this concept and around concerns around getting on the back of a motorbike here in Vietnam. Personally, I'm going to say I feel more confident on the back of an experienced rider, a Vietnamese rider who knows the lay of the land, who's a qualified rider and is employed by an established company. So, you know, you wouldn't want to put your fears ahead of that kind of experience. Because as Ben said, getting out and about on that bike, touring through all of those streets that lead through the paddy fields and, you know, you see those beautiful karst mountains and, you know, experience funny little boats that you take the bike on that floats you over to the other side. You ride across hanging bridges and You know, these are things, and this is where I think the kids get it, because they come back with, that was epic, because in their own countries, whether it's the US, whether it's the UK, whether it's Australia, that kind of opportunity is not going to happen in their everyday opportunity. They're not going to get that on the Gold Coast. They're not going to get that in New York City. They're not going to get that on those kinds of holidays. This is rural Vietnam and its rustic nature and its ability to facilitate these experiences for a family to do it together. And I'm talking mum, dad, grandparents, you know, right down to young children. I think collectively they all can get something out of it. So maybe Ben talked to us about, I don't know, the beginning of the duck stop, or I don't know, what's a duck stop? Ben Mitchell: There's an area called the Bong Lai Valley, and up that valley there's a series of community-based tourism places. One of them is called the Duck Stop, which in recent years has become very popular. It's a very unique attraction. People love it. Kids love it. Adults love it. Adolescents love it. Grandparents love it. Everyone loves it. It's huge. But what it basically is, is a local person who's by the name of Quinn, actually, and he's trained his ducks and he employs people to Training a duck, well there you go. Yeah, it's hard to explain. And everyone that goes there tells everyone to go there. But along that valley, that valley itself is a great day trip. You can buy farm-to-table lunches at local people's houses along the valley. You can ride around it by bicycle. You can go out there by a Phong Nha rider, by one of the local motorbike taxi riders. There's a place up the top of the valley where they've got what they call the Monkey Bridge and a big swing over a cliff. The Monkey Bridge is where you're challenged to ride a bicycle across a very narrow bridge over a pond. It's a fun day out, the Bong Lai Valley, full of community-based tourism. And with the community-based tourism, too, that relates back heavily to the way that you would see the National Park. I mean, you can book a National Park tour, or you can rent a car, or you can rent a scooter yourself and ride around the National Park if you're that way inclined. But probably one of the best ways to do it, and one of the things we're proudest of, is the hopping, as Kerry just said, hopping on the back of a local rider, Going to the Paradise Cave, the Botanical Gardens, which is a jungle tracking area and swimming area, going to historical sites like the Eight Lady Cave, going to the Moc Eco-Trail where the geysers come up from a cave system, geysers of cold water where you can swim in the jungle there. The Dark Cave, the Moc Nam, these different facilities around the park, different attractions, different places, can all be visited by, you know, renting a motorbike rider for the day. The motorbike riders that we deal with are local people from local households, so each motorbike that you rent is sort of a day's income for people. And it's quite inexpensive, really, from our side, from the Westerners' visitors' side. But for the local people, it's a great income. So it's a good support to the local community. And it also helps to justify your coming here, being able to support the local community. From a safety perspective with those community-based riders, community-based tourism workers, from a safety perspective of going with them, I personally wouldn't recommend it if I didn't believe in its safety, but that's my opinion. But to date, we've not really had any issues in the decade and a half we've been working with that. We do get some problems with tourists who rent bikes and ride themselves around the park. That's a fairly regular problem. People take a bit of skin off or they break a bone or something happens. I'm not a big fan of that but I am a very big promoter of going around the park with the local licensed riders who do it daily. These people used to be hunters, they used to be timber cutters, they are used to carrying loads on their motorbikes. But nowadays, rather than working in these unsustainable industries like timber cutting and hunting, they're working in tourism. Yeah, it's a great system. We work out with our guests based on what they're interested in, what they'll see for the day. We discuss that with the writers. We give the people a pod guide with some historical information on it. And away they go for the day. And they can visit the places that we suggested and worked out with them. And the riders take them around to all these places. And they go and wait in a hammock at most of the destinations. that the guests can take as long as they want. It's basically they're traveling at their own pace, doing their own thing. It's great for families. All the riders are well versed on and well aware that mothers like to be able to see all their kids for the whole way around. So yeah, it's a really good system. Kerry Newsome: I take your point on that because I think for me, when I'm talking to people and I'm recommending people to come to Phong Nha, I don't want them to come here being ignorant or clueless around, you know, how to get the best experience here. I mean, this is a bit of a plug for you, Ben, and certainly for Phong Nha Farmstay. I want to thank you for the support over the last few years in the What About Vietnam podcast and looking after, to me, this trip and sponsoring this show. It's been fantastic. But one of the things I love about what you and what Bic have created in the Farmstay is it's not just really great accommodation set in the middle of paddy fields with If you have a check on the website for this show, you're going to see some beautiful sunset photos that I grabbed the other night. But, you know, it's rural, but it's not rough. is the best way for me to say it. Because I think sometimes people think rule is definitely having to rough it and you don't have to do it that way. But one of the things I am really dead set about is about getting good advice, getting good information. And there is two ways to experience any destination for that matter, and that's going with a fixed tour. So that means you follow a group and you start at A and you finish at B and you have a set time and you literally have to, you know, follow the yellow brick road and the person with the flag. What Ben's talking about is being able to advise you around setting up your day the way you want it so that you can start when you want to, finish when you want to, and your drivers and your guides for the day, whatever that is, whether that is going to the caves as part of it, whether it's going out and mixing it up with maybe some kayaking, stopping at the duck stop on the way back, all of that can be kind of curated to your own needs, your own wants, your own party or your own group, your own family's desires for the day. If it's too hot, you can finish early. If you feel, you know, invigorated and you want to explore a bit more and you've got time, they can add it on. So you've got flexibility in that style. And that's probably something that Phong Nha Farmstay is definitely well known for. So if you come to Phong Nha and you want, you know, quality accommodation, but you also want really good advice around putting something together just for you, then it's the ideal place to do it. We talked a little bit before about how much time to allow that. And Ben and I were just discussing before coming on the show about slow travel. Maybe, Ben, you can speak to my listeners just a bit more about, you know, trying not to cram everything in. Ben Mitchell : Yeah, well, making the effort to come to Fongya, a little bit off the beaten path, I think it's worthwhile to try and give yourself at least three days. Now if you're traveling as a family and your kids are sort of eight years old and older, you can get a lot into two or three days. If you're traveling with smaller children, babies, toddlers, I think personally I'd be suggesting traveling Vietnam a bit slower, going to less destinations and spending more time at them. As far as visiting somewhere like Phong Nha with toddlers and a baby goes, I'd be aiming to do sort of one thing per day over four or five days. If you're staying with us at Phong NhaFarmstay, we've got some great common areas that are good for relaxing with the little ones. You've got The older ones can keep busy, you know, we've got bicycles, we've got village laneways and farmland all around us for exploring. Each morning at the farmstay we run a bit of a free tour at 7am where we go for a half hour walk around the village, learning about the village. Often I'll have family staying there and the mother and one child will do it one morning. and the father might do it another morning and there might be a child who never did it. Often two parents will come out and do the morning walk with me and leave the kids in bed. And other families, the whole family will go and that can be like for one morning. Then families can do what I suggest people do on their first day of sightseeing from the farmstay, is go to Phong NhaCave and they can either get a lift up there or they can get a bicycle and ride there. That's a great thing to do on their first day and it's a one thing, not a whole series of things. Going around the park, there's different places you can go to from Fongya Farmstay or from Fongya and you can visit just one thing each day with smaller children because to try and get too much in, as you know, they get tired and they get a bit… worn out and then everyone starts to have a bit of a miserable time. So you've got to get them back after they've done whatever they're doing for the day, have lunch somewhere different each day. There's a lot of different days you can do if you're traveling slower with smaller children. But I recommend families with children who are all sort of over eight and under 18, they can do three days in Phong Nha between the National Park, the Phong Nha Cave and the Bong Lai Valley. They would get three very full days in there. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and probably a good segue into managing a day or your stay here is also the aspect of food. You know, like I've got kids, I've got grandkids and food always features a big part of any stay. And I've had some concerns from parents who have come to me and said, oh, you know, I don't think my kids are going to eat Vietnamese. And I've said, well, that's okay, because there's all types of food that is available to them in Vietnam. Do you want to speak to that, Ben, just on the, you know, availability of food types here? Ben Mitchell: Yeah, well my wife and I have got a restaurant in town and a restaurant at the farmstay and we've, over the years we've learnt to put a menu together that is very much a Vietnamese menu but also offer some Western foods. Like, you know, with a family, there's often one kid and they won't eat anything unless it's white. It's pasta, it's potato, it's chicken, it's okay. Chips. Chips. But then, you know, but, and I mean, then there's everyone in between that level and we'll eat anything. So we've got a menu, our menu is structured to sort of suit a wide range, but Around Phong Nha we've got everything from an Indian restaurant to pizza restaurants to Vietnamese restaurants to very local restaurants. Restaurants that only sell snails and duck eggs. We've got all levels. Kerry Newsome : Okay, and I think for everyone, we've got chips covered. Ben Mitchell : Well, one thing I would mention too, we've got a very good vegan restaurant in Phong Nha which gets incredible reviews. Good to know. The Phong NhaVegan. Kerry Newsome: Ben, just talk us through, you're also a travel family man yourself and traveled overseas recently. Where would you place Phong Nhaas far as cost to travel here and to enjoy a stay for a family? How would you put it? Ben Mitchell: Well, looking again, two things. One, I would say value for cost. I mean, there is products here in Phong Nhathat cost $3,000 for a tour. all the way down to most accommodations will give you a free bicycle. As far as families go, a lot of businesses have got small bicycles and bicycle seats. So you've got all sorts of levels there of everything in between. We've got trekking tours, we've got national parks, seeing the national park. I mean, if you go around the park, it's going to cost you sort of $25 per person, $500,000 per person. to go around on a motorbike. Most of the other transport in the area is by bicycle or, you know, there's a lot of walking things you can do. It just depends, I suppose, on how much of a hurry you're in. If you come to Phong Nha and you've only got one day here, you're going to try and cram as much as you can in and it is going to cost more. The longer that you sort of plan your trip out to stay, The cheaper it'll be. As far as accommodation goes, there's everything here from very cheap homestays to more upmarket villas with private pools. Yeah, I think as far as value and cost goes, even you'd find the most expensive accommodations in the area are less than $200 for a private two-bedroom swimming pool villa with breakfast. So, you know, that's at the top end. It is a very cheap destination. Restaurants in the area are very, very good value for money, very cheap. It's a very competitive and new tourism destination and with high value for money, I would say. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, and that's kind of the ticket that I sell it as well is, you know, the level of experiences that you're going to have, the quality of food, the accommodation level is widespread. But, you know, in my country, to find a family accommodation set up for, you know, parents and three kids, et cetera, you know, there's no way you would get that for $200 for a night. And, you know, we're talking private pool and overlooking the paddy fields and breakfast, you know, included, like, yeah, I don't know of very many places that are offering that kind of value. But I think Ben's quite right also in saying that the activities can be as much or as little as you want. And if you've planned your time and, you know, if I'm arranging a trip, I'm going to be pushing that barrel as to, to try and allow you enough time to enjoy it at a pace that suits. Because one of the things that I do get back from travellers who get a little bit disappointed with Vietnam, and it's because time has been their enemy. They haven't allowed enough time to do things, so they're rushed and, you know, they're trying to fit everything in to make sure that they get to the airport on time to go to the next place. So for sure with Phong Nha and with your family and this sort of time that you can have together to have those experiences and you know I've got testimonials from people who have just said that just the level of confidence that their kids have got since coming to Phong Nha and having the experiences they had. has just gone through the roof, that, you know, it's opened up their thoughts and their minds to travelling more overseas to experience new cultures like nothing else has. So I really, I hope we've answered jointly, you know, any questions that you do have about this region. You can always reach out to Ben through the Phong Nga Farmstay or me directly and I can pass on. Happy to answer any questions if you come to me directly. Is there anything I didn't ask you Ben or anything we didn't cover that we should before we wrap up? Ben Mitchell : I'd go a little bit deeper into getting here and getting away. I think it's good. If you're traveling as a family, as you've said, it can be economical to go by private car over the public transport. And that would allow you to then visit sites around the DMZ, like the Vin Moc Tunnel system and the Ben Hai River Bridge. Staying overnight in Hue, I think is a benefit in that there's a great day trip between Hue and Hoi An as well for families. Visiting, you know, Hai Van Pass, waterfalls, cemeteries, tombs, historical sites. beautiful scenery, coastal scenery. So, you know, heading south or coming from the south into Phong Nha is a, you can turn the actual transit into a big part of the trip as well. Getting to the north is a bit more difficult. You know, it's really a jump. You've got to jump as far as Ninh Binh. There's nothing attracting people between Ninh Binh Hoi An, Ninh Binh, Hanoi and Phong Nha. But to the south, it's pretty action-packed all the way down as far as Hoi An over one or two days. As far as going all the way to Hoi An in one day, yeah, I think the train is an effective travel method there because You can get on the train, you can relax, walk around, enjoy it. If you get a private car straight from here to Hoi An, it is a long day in the car with the family. The kids tend to put them through hell and then they'll get you back. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, I was going to say, who's gone through hell? The kids or the parents. Yeah. I'm game enough to say that, you're not Ben. But my kids are far enough away from me to do that at the moment. Okay, Ben, great to have you on the show. I'm thoroughly enjoying my time here and I think you will too, as I said. Come back to us with any questions that you have and we'll see you on the next show of What About Vietnam? Ben Mitchell: Thanks very much, Kerry.

Out & About in Saigon – UNCUT with host Kerry Newsome & Kelley McCarthy Kerry Newsome : Xin chào and welcome to What About Vietnam. Look here we are still in Saigon and I'm delighted to still be sharing my Out and About mini-series with Kelley McCarthy. Say hello Kelley. Kelley McCarthy : Good morning or good afternoon listeners. Kerry Newsome: Look, we have had a fabulous time and the reason I wanted to produce this next show, the one we're in now, is because we just kept uncovering more and more things and we said, yeah, we need to do another show, we just need to expand. So, this one is really intentionally going to be quite chock-a-block with some of the experiences that we managed to do during the last few days and hopefully for you when you consider coming to Saigon, which for many of you is really just a leapfrog location, you come in, you go out and you go somewhere else. We're kind of thinking more around that you might want to extend. you stay a little bit longer because there is quite a bit to do. So I thought we'd start at the very, very beginning when you've booked your accommodation or we've got you a hotel that either has a breakfast included or it doesn't. Now to be really true and fair and like keeping it all authentic, Kelley's looking at me with this great cheesy grin because we're talking about breakfast. And I'm not a big breakfast girl, but let me tell you, Kelley is a breakfast lover, so I'm going to ask her to speak to the breakfast scene, the cafe scene for that option. Kelley McCarthy: All right, so for myself, I've been going out and having breakfast each day here in Saigon while Kerry's been catching up on, I think, a little bit more of that beauty sleep. So, I have just done Google searches. I like to try a different cafe each day. You have multiple options. So, basically, if you quickly do a Google search of Western breakfast near me, if that's what you're after, Keep in mind, you've got all of your street food, so if you're wanting to have traditional Vietnamese breakfast. There's a couple of great ones that I go to and frequent regularly. One is called The Running Bean. There is two locations in District 1 for that. There's also another great one I discovered this time. It's called The Godmother. That was fantastic for breakfast. Keep in mind also, you can If you do want to have a buffet breakfast and you're not staying in an international hotel, you can actually go to those and purchase breakfast and sit in the hotel and have breakfast. So that is another option. If you sort of want to stay in a hotel that's just a little bit down in the price rankings and then you want to do an exquisite breakfast, that is an option. So keep that in mind. There's a couple of other places, the Runam cafes, they're scattered everywhere and they have multiple options when you go for breakfast. You'll find one of those in Saigon Centre and also in Vincom Plaza, both in District 1. So, plenty of options out there if you want to go from traditional to fully Western. Kerry Newsome : And, you know, I kind of kick in with Kelley, you know, around the more cafe, coffee kind of time of day. So I'm more that midday. I'm more that brunch is what I'd like to call it, thanks Kel. But certainly I really love my coffee and coffee is definitely on the menu here in Vietnam and certainly in Saigon with the cafe scene. So, every 50 metres you're going to find a coffee or cafe scene option anywhere you go. Kelley McCarthy: And that's a great time for me to then kick into the second morning snack, which is my coffee and cake delight, which, let me tell you, are everywhere. I'm like a bunny looking for the next food place just to try something different. So Kerry gets the giggles each time it's, oh, oh, it must be cake o'clock. So off we go. She has her mid-morning coffee and I have my second bout. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, look, if you need someone to try something or to sniff out something that is delicious, she seems to have antennas that will, oh, look at that over there. We need to cross the road now and we need to, sure enough, we open the door and it's this glorious scene of cakes and smells of coffee and yeah, delicious, delicious. Now Kel, we got to think about planning for the day, girls and guys. Now, I've got a really big guys audience, so to you out there this is kind of how we think things could roll for you. So, depending on your appetite, depending on you know, the weather, like how hot it is, depending on whether or not you're an adventure seeker, maybe you're a historian, you know, there's just so many options apart from your main tourist attractions, so places of interest, You know, adventure-wise, you can definitely go out and do the Coochie Tunnels, you can go and explore the Mekong Delta. There's lots. And you can do that through your hotel or you can do that through a local agent. We have a guy that we deal with, Lee Hogan, who does a fabulous job for us and for some of my clients. So, we would definitely put him forward for that. But if you don't want to miss the game or you've got to watch that match or something like that, you might want to head to a bar called Phatty’s Kelley McCarthy : That's P-H-A-T-T-Y’s Kerry Newsome : Yes. And it's pretty famous for, yeah, you'll find a lot of people seeking the same thing in that bar. A lot of expats tend to go there and you know it's just kind of a famous place for keeping up with sports and things like that for that taste I guess. Now, Grab is easy to get around to find Phatty’s. It's in District 1. So, for that kind of interest for you guys, if you want to let us girls go and do our thing, which might be totally different, yeah, that would be our recommendation. Kelley? Kelley McCarthy: Yep, and for the ladies, if you want to drop your husbands off there, it is literally 30 metres to Saigon Centre for some shopping for you to sit down and either have one of those cakes and coffees I talk about, or you could have a walk around the stores in there. So, it's very, very close. Kerry Newsome : Yes. So, that's a good segue into us talking about shopping. So, we'll start with the mains and the reason I want to talk about the mains is in the sense that there is some aspects of each of the main shopping centres that we've kind of figured out that differentiates them and we'll go into more of that in a minute. So there is Saigon Centre, Vincom Plaza, Diamond Plaza and Vincom Megamall. So Kelley maybe you could talk to us a little bit about some of the key differences between the main ones being Saigon Centre and Vincom Plaza. Kelley McCarthy : So Saigon Centre has a large department store in it called Takashimaya. It's a Japanese department store. It is a high-end Japanese department store, but if you go to the lower levels in there, you can get some great specials. Downstairs as well. There's lots of little boutique stores through that shopping center And that one also so Takashi Maya also looks after all the ladies Fragrances skincare products such as your Estee Lauder's and you know all of those skincare groups It also has a couple of stores that are the store independent such as your Chanel, NARS for skincare. So, and then you've got your rotating levels in that centre for other things like your Calvin Klein, and a lot of other independents. So that's the individual boutiques there as well. Where if you go across to Vincom Plaza, that will then have things like Zara, H&M, and another lot of independents, but they don't seem to double up in the larger stores in the same shopping centers like in other countries do. So, that's where it is. Vincom Mega Mall is out in District 2, very similar to Vincom Centre here, but on a larger scale. And then Diamond Plaza is very, very high end. So, that will have your Burberry's, Prada, all of the fragrant houses and then independent brands going up through the levels is there as well. Kerry Newsome : And like, you know, these major centres, you know, sometimes people think of them and say, you know, who wants to go to Vietnam and go to a shopping mall and that kind of thing. You'd be quite surprised to the experience you can have in those shopping centres. It's not, you know, like coming from Australia, I do see the shopping mall becoming very much same, same. You'll go from one shop to another and everything seems to be the same, where there'll be a really big mix in these shopping malls and even to the extent of food and coffee options, really cute cafes And definitely food-wise, certainly in, you know, the centres that we did, Saigon Centre mainly and Vincom Plaza. Kelley, that really cute Japanese-style one that we had that had a kind of a tapas lunch. Yeah, Miava. Yeah, that was just fabulous. And, you know, we actually discussed the fact around, you know, people would not possibly seek it out because it is in a shopping centre. But wow, we were just, price wise it was great, the quality of the food was excellent, and just the variety plus was just, I was really impressed. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, they have some great little places in those shopping centres. And they generally have the food set out on certain floors, but there'll be a couple of little ones scattered through the other level. So really seek out these food places in those shopping centres. Kerry Newsome: It might mean you get a bit dizzy going round and round in the elevators and the lifts, etc. But it's worth doing a search. Now, we would be remiss if we don't talk about markets here. And I guess this is another thing I want to kind of demystify. You know, Vietnam is not just about markets. Definitely not. It's just not now the focus being on copy products and all the rest of it. It has come up into some really high quality artisan goods, creative concept stores and things like that. So, the markets are definitely there and it's an experience you do need to do, I think, at least once. Probably Kelley and I have done it quite a few times. So, we're well practiced in the Ben Thanh markets in the Saigon Square. And Saigon Square is kind of a very smaller version just opposite Saigon Centre. So, you can kind of do both those in the same visit and maybe a little bit more expensive. So, I'm going to lead Kel into just talking about the bargaining side of things because I'm a shocking bargainer. I get what I want, but I probably don't get it at the super best price. But there is a skill to it. And as Kelley was reminding me this morning, you've got to go hard in Ben Thanh Talk to us about going hard in Ben Thanh, Kelley. Kelley McCarthy: So , Ben Thanh market is more of a, you get your fabrics, you can get food in there, you can get a huge variety. It's under one large tin roof, so it is hot in there, so I suggest going in the morning to get your best price. Go in the morning, you get a morning price, and go hard in your bartering. So, they will start off at an astronomical price. So keep it in mind what you would realistically pay for it in your own country if you were happy with it. And that's where you roughly want to be. So for example, 50% at least is what you want to get of what their first price is offering. And just remember, haggling over 20 or 30,000 at the end of the day is a couple of dollars. So don't wear yourself out on that. Do it with a smile. It'll be a lot of good for me, good for you pricing. When you win. When you win. good for you, not so good for me, and with a little bit of a not so much of a big smile, and then they seem to come down. And if you do it with a smile, you'll get a lot further, don't be aggressive. If you're after a lot of the high-end copies, I would suggest Saigon Square for that. A, it's air-conditioned as well, ladies, but that's where you will get, because there is definitely a difference between good copy and bad copy. So in Saigon Square, that is where you'll get the more high-end copy. You will pay a bit more for it, but you'll get a great pair of copy runners for around, I would suggest 1 million to 1.5 million is where you would go with those, but they will start off at 2.5, 3 million, sometimes even higher. So just keep in mind what you're happy with as your price, and then if you come out happy, that's where you go. Don't discuss it with anyone else, because they might then shut you down and make you feel a little incompetent by saying oh we got it for this but at the end of the day it'll be a couple of bucks. Kerry Newsome : Yeah and like for some people you know they really want to treat it like sport and really their talking point for the night will be just how they were able to you know bargain down this person and you know get them for this you know astronomically low price and yeah good on you but like you know this is these people's livelihood too so I don't, you know, Kelley mentioned, you know, $20,000, $30,000 in your own currency, you're going to find that's, you know, $0.30, $0.50, $1, $1.50, $2. And you go, well, if it's really that important, yeah, move on. But if you really want that item, And it's just worth walking away with you both smiling, with a win-win situation. Sometimes it can be a lot of fun. They make jokes. It's a real event, so you can really enjoy your time. part of shopping here in Saigon and certainly around the country is becoming more prevalent and I'm seeing more of and I'm delighted to do so. And that's the concept stores, so that's where you know locals are designing their own goods and making their own goods locally, sometimes out of local produce, and they can be really interesting. So, we kind of had a really good look around the Katinat building, and it's opposite H&M, and H&M is in… District 1. District 1, and the… And it's in Vincom Centre. And in the Vincom Centre. So, when I'm out and about, I kind of get myself to the Vincom Centre, walk out the H&M door to outside and then cross the road and you'll see the Playground and you'll see the Katinat building. And that's how I best describe for you to visit these stores. Definitely make a time to visit these. Now, you're probably not always going to find your size and if you are a mixed size group of people like in your family or whatever, unless you're the small, very small. Size 10. And under. Kelley McCarthy: I buy lots of sunglasses, earrings, bracelets, handbags. Kerry Newsome : Yes and look occasionally I can fit into them you know I'm roughly a 10 in Australian standards but yeah I'm not small shouldered. Kelley McCarthy : Don't be precious about looking at the size tag, go with what fits you. Kerry's a size 10 and I know she's looked a couple of times when they've said Oh, you be extra large or extra, extra large. So, don't let that offend you. That's just their sizing system. Kerry Newsome : Go with what fits. Absolutely. And, you know, while we're in this shopping headset or this part of the program, probably worth mentioning that size thing in a very trip planning mode. So, when you're packing and you're thinking about what to bring, If you are a shoe size over 39, bring all the shoes you need. Kelley McCarthy : So, that's in UK, US and Australian. That would be above, basically a size 8.5. If you're a size 9 or 10, you have got no hope in getting shoes here, unless you buy men's shoes. Kerry Newsome: Yes, but I mean I know even I took my grandson here and he was the size 13, we couldn't find anywhere like shoes to fit and you know my husband coming over for the wedding and I'm thinking about you know shoes I'm going you know 11, 12 is that going to fit maybe? But then we're stuck and he's got runners to wear to the wedding, so no, we won't be doing that. But for me, I'm a 36. So I can pick any shoe off any shelf and it's just a delight. And devastating for me. Kelley stands there and growls. But like seriously it is a pleasure for me to buy shoes over here. So I get all the really natty bits and pieces. So I buy a lot of shoes girls. I'm just I'm just putting it out there. So yeah, and the other aspect, a little bit delicate, but in the undergarment. Kelley McCarthy: Underwear and bras. Ladies, I'm a size 18 and a size 18D in bra cups. Please don't forget this in your suitcase, because you are going to be doing a lot of non-underwear moments. If you do, you will never buy them here. At all. I, for example, I even asked a dressmaker if she could insert a bra into my dress so I didn't have to wear one, a false bra. She just looked at me with this horrified look and said, no cup size big enough. Kerry Newsome: So. No, and they don't know like how to wrap their head around women with busts. So, you know, like if you are. Kelley McCarthy: King Kong comes to mind for them. Kerry Newsome: But have you seen them try to get their arms to get around you when they're doing that tailoring? Like they've got these, you know, beautiful like delicate figures and they're kind of stretching themselves to get around you and you feel like… I get a lot of bear hugs when they're trying to measure me. Yeah, I know, it's crazy. But like, yeah, so don't come and then get stuck with, oh, I really should have bought another sports bra, I really should have bought… And think cotton also in definitely in the hot months because you know, 90% humidity is an average day, so when you're out and about and you're doing things, I've got to tell you, you are really churning and burning clothes, just pure saturation point. So, yeah, just we thought that was definitely worth mentioning for you because we want you to feel good. Kelley McCarthy : It kind of goes for you guys too so you are not going to find extra large underwear if you forget them. Most men here would be a 28 inch waist at best so don't forget your underwear gentlemen as well. Kerry Newsome: Okay point noted. Now, I'm leading now down the path of tailoring. Now, we have to kind of… there's a bit of a caveat with this with us as we have done, as you can tell, lots of shopping in the past and in this trip, but also we've done a lot of tailoring in the past, etc. But we wanted to try tailoring in Saigon. Now, I really have to invite Kelley to share her experience, which came with a reference from a local. So, we didn't go in blindsided. We went into this place, you know, as being told that this was a quality tailor. So, over to you Kelley. Kelley McCarthy : So, going into the tailors here, first tip, be very direct with what you want. Don't sugarcoat it. It's very direct. Pictures are a great thing and they're a great thing to keep hold of to reference back to. For example, our tailor here, I showed pictures, told her what we want, I came back and it wasn't how I'd requested it. They tried to say, you not tell me this yesterday. So, I quickly snapped my phone, pull up the pictures, show them that what I requested is not in the imagery. I think in my situation here in Saigon, had I just nodded and said yes, yes, very happy on the first fitting, all would have gone well. But when I wanted them to tweak a few things, change a few things, and tell them basically that their tailoring wasn't up to scratch for what I wanted, things went a little pear-shaped. In the end, I just walked out saying, thank you, I take this one, I hate it. It was much easier just to write off that bit of money. Kerry Newsome: There was actually kind of almost fisticuffs happening between the tailor and the shop owner. So, the shop owner was trying to be the mediator and her English was a lot better than the actual tail, the seamstress herself. But she was really starting to crack it. And yet, so the poor shop owner was going, like, I don't know what to do here. And Kelley's just going, I hate it. This isn't right. This isn't what I asked for. here's the picture, blah, blah, blah. So, we can't kind of say it was the perfect experience and we have been treated very differently with tailoring in Hoi An. But Hoi An, it is its superpower. Kelley McCarthy : It specializes in tailoring. Kerry Newsome: There is a tailor every corner. They're only shop fronts because the tailors are actually working from home and working in other places, but it is the mecca for tailoring. If you do have tailoring you want done, Like, we can't really put hand on heart and say, look, definitely get it done in Saigon. We would, you know, we kind of made this agreement before coming on the show and said, look, you know, it wouldn't be our go-to recommendation for tailoring. So, Saigon, sorry to say, we're not going to put you up there for tailoring. But you've got plenty of other streets to talk about. Kelley McCarthy : I feel the best way to describe it is in Hoi An, they are perfectionist. So, if you're not happy with something, they will tweak it, whether that takes one alteration or 10, till you walk out that store happy, where here in Saigon, it was more of a business transaction. Had I've got it right the first time and just accepted it, it would have been okay, but there was a lot more complexity to what I wanted. and it was more about the tailor herself, the seamstress, didn't want to undo what she had already done because it was in the too hard basket. Kerry Newsome: Yeah definitely and they really didn't care whether we walked out with a smile on our face or not. So it was a totally different experience and a bit disappointing and flavoured by the fact we had had such pleasurable experiences in Hoi An. So, we're a bit tainted, but we want you to have that knowledge when you're making these choices, when you're staying in these places. We just don't want you to come to Saigon and go, oh, well, I can get my tailoring done here, you know, you heard on the What About Vietnam podcast, it's fantastic. Well, we're just saying you might luck it, you might find that one, And it might all go absolutely fantastic, but Saigon to me is not known for tailoring. No. Okay, so moving right on, I'd like to kind of get stuck into food. Kelley McCarthy : Oh, my favourite topic. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, like I was going to put this section and kind of call it the foodie havens that we found, and we found a lot. We found a lot. So, I don't know which way to begin this, but we tried lots of cuisines. So, I'm going to start with just the overall parent subject of different cuisines. Don't think for a minute when you come to Vietnam and Saigon in particular that you're stuck with just Vietnamese. Not that that's a bad thing to be stuck with, but you can get Italian, Korean, Spanish, Kelley McCarthy: Japanese, Chinese, Indian, basically any cuisine you could imagine, you can get it here. Kerry Newsome : It was an interesting journey on the foodie trail for us. because we tried some really high-end restaurants, so we had very high expectations. They'd also been referred to us. So, we then tried probably what you'd classify as more your mid-range, and like, I don't know, Kelley, how do we say this? Kelley McCarthy : I feel as though some of those mid-range, presentation-wise and taste-wise, far exceeded some of the high-end restaurants. And the same as like we talk about in the shopping centres, some of those bistros in those shopping centres, because we have a very strong French influence here in Saigon, so presentation is an utmost thing for them. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, I mean we were walking along a street yesterday looking for a lunch place and Kelley walks into this kind of dodgy kind of alley and I'm going… Get down those alleys. Definitely, but like have you got a place in mind and she said well I think there's a few here I've tried one of them and we stumbled across this really old-worldly kind of French restaurant and just had the most delightful meal and felt like we were in mini France, like even like the furniture and the… It's like a bistro in Paris. It was, it really was and you know we went to places like Zumware and the one that we liked the most was the one at Social Complex. Kelley McCarthy : Social Complex it's called. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, but it's got about eight locations hasn't it? Kelley McCarthy : Yeah, eight locations in the city and this is on the ground floor on the corner. It's open from mid-morning right through to I think one, two o'clock in the morning. Not saying we didn't stop in there for our last coffee and cake at about 1.45 in the morning. Kerry Newsome : Absolutely, but previous to that Kelley had fallen in love with the salmon. Kelley McCarthy: They did an amazing salmon sashimi with a truffle vinaigrette and a small amount of caviar on top of the salmon. I think you get about eight pieces. I probably could have had about four plates, but did stop at one. Did stop at one because I needed to move along to the next food location. So, progressive dinners here are a delight. Just have a nibble at one, move along to the next. Don't commit to just one restaurant. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, I was a big fan of the roast duck with caviar and gold leaf. It was beautifully arranged. You might see it in some of the images I share on our social pages, so keep an eye out for that. But it was just, it was melt in your mouth, but just the flavours of the caviar with it. I would never have put those two together. But the presentation with the gold leaf was just, it just had that wow factor. And I think that's where we got to with trying some of the other high-end restaurants. It just didn't have that wow factor. Kelley McCarthy : It fell short in presentation as well. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, so you know we really love our Runam. Runam is very, very well known in Vietnam and it's a beautiful coffee shop. They're very nicely, the decoration, the whole layout, their food is reliably good and tasty. Best chicken wings you'll try anywhere. Yeah, and you love the salads as well. Yes, and they're great little salads. So definitely your runums. Kelley discovered this one called Miyama. Kelley McCarthy : That's a Japanese restaurant. I think it's level three. Kerry Newsome : Modern Tokyo restaurant. Kelley McCarthy : Yeah, that's in Saigon Center for all those people that are wanting lots of nibbles or even just beautiful. They do, once again, do beautiful salads. There's a great Italian restaurant called Basilica next door to it, which is also in Vincom Center. So, Kerry Newsome: Yeah, I had the clam chowder pie at Basilica and it was just to die for. And sometimes, you know, we talked about the fact that you can be trying so much Vietnamese food, you just want to then have something really hearty or you want to have something that's a bit more typical of home and that might be Italian or that might be a pizza or that might be You know, just something that reminds you of home. And I was really feeling like I wanted something really hearty. And that clam chowder pie, I thought, how are they going to do this? Are they really going to know how to do clam chowder in Vietnam? Oh, yeah. It was just to die for. So, we did explore, you know, some other places and we probably wouldn't be suggesting those for food but probably more for that moody bar, nice experience to have a lovely cocktail, you know, really lovely stuff and things like that, you know, like at Loon, like at Kaya San, beautiful, beautiful restaurants. So, you get the ambience of the restaurant but you might, you know, choose to do what Kelley was saying about the progressive style. You might want to go and have a cocktail at one place then move on and have, you know, a main meal somewhere else and you can really mix it up. Yeah. And I think that was the learning curve for us is don't feel settled to just stay and do everything in the one place because everything is close and everything is easy to access. Kelley McCarthy : And keeping in mind too, if you're in District 1 and you're wanting to go from one side of District 1 to the other, it's going to cost you only about $32,000 in a grab. So, you know, you can duck and weave to any restaurant that you see fit. So, that's like a couple of dollars to get in the cab and go to the next restaurant. And they don't mind serving one plate and then moving on to the next. It's not… Absolutely. Kerry Newsome : And I think, you know, this is where this city becomes a really great place for men and women. And I think, you know, families as well, you really get the opportunity to try such a variety of food. and get it or have it displayed to you or offered to you in the consumable way you want it. Like the restaurants are open for extensive hours, the menus are very extensive, they're very clearly laid out to what's in them. So a dish is going to tell you exactly what's in it. Usually the staff are pretty good with English so they're going to be able to have someone there to explain it to you if you can't see in the menu what it is. So, you know, if you are vegan or if you are gluten intolerant, you know, don't think coming to Vietnam is going to really dull down your experience of food options here. You're going to be able to find some. You might have to look a little bit further than us, but you definitely will find different options. We've seen them on all menus that we've Kelley McCarthy: The only thing I'd be fearful of would be people with such as a peanut allergy or something like that. As much as if they tell you they don't use peanuts or anything, just keep in mind the preparation is not necessarily going to be like home. I don't know that they're going to have that separate chopping board or that separate knife or anything like that for allergies. So just be wary of that. Bring your EpiPen if that's what you require. Just be really open-minded to that. Kerry Newsome : And also for those who have allergies to MSG, I think you're going to find MSG in most dishes. I checked with one of my guests, Tracy Lister , who has written some fabulous Vietnamese cookbooks and worked in some amazing restaurants and has her own restaurant actually back in Australia. She confirmed for me that really if there's a broth or a sauce or that kind of thing, MSG is going to be in it. If you are MSG intolerant, we would suggest you stick with fresh options that you see, you know, like you bought it out of the tub and it's fried or it's whatever so you can see how it's cooked. Kelley McCarthy : But that MSG makes it flavour. Flavour, flavour, flavour. Kerry Newsome : I'm with you, girl. Yeah, I hate to say that. Now, taking you further through Saigon and some different kind of experiences. Now, just another caveat here. We're not going to talk in this show about the main attractions, about, you know, the tourist attractions that everybody would see on a map of the to-do places for first-time visitors. You're going to get that through Vietnam tourism, Ho Chi Minh City tourism. And we do, we think they do that more than adequately. So, we want to take you to the, I don't know, off the beaten track kind of things. Now, we've talked about shopping and let me say I probably might have gone a wee bit overboard and did a bit of swap around, you know, I brought something then I didn't like it because I found something better and blah, blah, blah. So, we tracked down the idea that I would post some items back to Australia and we thought well let's make that a kind of part of our day and a few things to add to that. So, my experience at the post office was absolutely fantastic. So, I arrived with my bag, all kind of neatly packaged up as best I could to the counter and got greeted by this lovely guy who, apart from saying hello, giving us the forms and me filling them out as diligently as I could, was easy to do because they had English as well as Vietnamese. As I'm signing the paperwork, etc., he says, do you like pink? And I look down and I'm wearing a pink shirt and I've got pink fingernails. And I said, yes, I do. He goes, hmm, pink is good. Okay. And then I hand the parcel over and I've got to go to another counter to pay for the parcel to be sent back. And I said, so what happens now? You have the parcel? He said, yeah, I have the parcel now. My parcel. And off you go. And I go, oh, okay. And he goes, no, go over there, pay there, I look after, it's all good. I went, right, you have my parcel, right. Kelley McCarthy : He even provided a great little tip as we were filling in the paperwork for Kerry. Kerry was putting down values on it and he said to us, oh, no, no, must be under $200. If over $200, government want receipts. So keep a note, put in your value on that, keep it under $200 in total so that you can just get that parcel on the post and get it home. Kerry Newsome : Don't think about posting back really valuable items. are either sentimental to you or have a high end value. Like I don't think along those lines, I'm just really swapping out. Getting rid of the bulk. I'm getting rid of bulk and heavyweight things that I've changed up. So very close to the Central Post Office and it's cute. you know, we really, you know, had a quick walk around and did a few things. It's actually on the list of visit places for the city, so if you'd like to check that out, please do so. And you know now, you've got it in your back pocket, if you do do some shopping and go a bit crazy like me, you can, you know, backtrack yourself there on your way to the airport, get in there, ship it back home and it'll be home about two or three weeks. Kelley McCarthy: It was approximately $30 Australian per kilo. Yeah, so it's not super cheap. Yeah, but it would just be weighing it up as what your excess luggage would be, as whatever works best. Exactly. So if we give you that guide, that will be something that you can look at against your excess luggage. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, for sure. Now, so kind of a street and a bit over is what they call Book Street. Kelley McCarthy : Yeah, sort of just keep walking past the post office and it's on your right, sort of next lane way up. Kerry Newsome : Yes and I didn't think it would be as visible or distinctive but it is. It's got kind of a statue of some kind sort at the very beginning of it and then as you look through the statue you'll actually see the street sort of goes on. everywhere books everywhere but like not only just books there was arts and crafts there was books there was like gift cards it was just it was just And what? There was little coffee shops in there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it was just if you wanted to spend just an hour or so just off doing something a little bit different, maybe didn't bring something with you to read. There was English as well as Vietnamese. You had to dig a bit deeper for that. Kelley McCarthy : I think if you just ask, they usually give you the version in English too because they have it in quite a few languages. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, and some of your very old classics were there. So, I just loved it. I thought, you know, I could just meander here and pick little bits and pieces etc. to take back or to read later. So, I loved Book Street. I really thought it was a nice add-on. The other thing that Kelley's got me on to, which I think is a fun thing to do when you're wearing your white runners, shoe cleaning. Kel, talk to us about shoe cleaning. Kelley McCarthy : You will get this wherever you walk around in District 1, but mostly near Saigon Centre markets and Bentang markets. you'll be walking along you'll have some little man carrying a little wooden basket come up to you and he'll just point to your shoes generally what they're wanting to do is clean them and it's okay people take them off you the first time i did it i did watch him walk about 30 meters down the street to clean them thinking he's just taking my brand new sketches But no, he did come back with them. So they will give them a good clean. They generally take them away from you. And I think it's because of the dry cleaning fluid that they use on them, but they come back dry, spotless. The price for that for everybody is 50,000. So just to let you know, they start trying to sting you a little bit more. It is 50,000 dong. They may come back, try and sell you some inner soles for another 30,000 and you might need this and you might need that. Average is $50,000 for a clean and wherever we come back via Saigon, there's some great little local ladies selling beer for the men that want to sit down and have a beer across from the markets whilst the ladies shop. You can be sitting down there and then you will get your shoes clean. Kerry Newsome : How long does it take actually? Kelley McCarthy: Two or three minutes. two or three minutes to do yeah so this time i literally was walking down the street heading back to the hotel and the man grabbed me and said shoes and i said ah yes forgot perfect so i stood on the side of the pavement he did give me a pair of scuffs to put on but they would fit my big toe and so i sort of just stood there on top of them so i wasn't with bare feet on the pavement i was gonna say that pavement would be hot wouldn't it oh no it's not so much the heat it's more the color of the pavement. So I just stood there on top of the little shoes while he cleaned them for me and it was literally a couple of minutes. Paid him my $50,000, we both smiled at each other and off I went with clean white shoes again. Kerry Newsome : Love your work girl, love it. Yeah look these opportunities come up and you do sit there and you go will I, won't I, you know what's the risk factor here and that's why I hope you're loving our show because we're telling you as it is how it happens and look we can't hand on heart say, you know, when they take your sketches, they're not gonna run off into the hills, but you know, on average, that won't happen. So, you know, just use your sense and sensibility headset. Have a bit of a laugh with it. Have a bit of a laugh. What's the worst thing that can happen? They can run off with your sketches, you're gonna go and buy another pair down the street. So that's how we think about it, but like, we don't expect you to, but Kelley McCarthy: And be prepared to be touted if you're sitting down there while you're having a beer. You are going to be offered a bookmark, a magnet, a pair of sunnies, a fan, you know, some twisting, noisy toys, all sorts. So, in the end, my suggestion is make no eye contact. That's my best suggestion. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, and I think after the experience with the tailor, and I hate this, I think you've got that Kelley McCarthy : eye thing going down. You will see what I am thinking from my eyes. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, I'm totally with you. So then the other thing that is on our list of to-do's is to visit our partner Worldwide Hospital, the dental hospital that we have a partnership with. And Kelley's been going back and forth to this hospital for over 10 years. So she always includes a visit there to get her teeth cleaned or whatever. A bit of a check-up. A bit of a check-up. So, that was another visit and it was just great to see those people. The staff there are just so lovely, aren't they? Kelley McCarthy : They're like family. Kerry Newsome: They are. They are so nice to us. I don't get that feeling when I go to my dentist, unfortunately. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, we do here. Yeah, so like I said, been going there for over 10 years, referred family, friends, even have taken my son there since he was four years old. And it's just like family, we get the hugs when we walk in. They do offer cosmetic surgery there, but I can't put hand on heart and say that I've done that yet. Keep an eye out, I have had a couple of quotes done this trip, so I may venture down that path to be able to refer it. Kerry Newsome: We just watched this space on that. There will be a whole show devoted to that if we go down that track. Kelley McCarthy : That's right, but dentistry I can honestly put my hand on my heart and refer them for any dental procedure. Generally when they give you a dental procedure they will probably give you a couple of options. But just keep in mind, whatever option they're giving you, they are confident in doing it. We referred a client a few years ago, they got two options. One was $40,000, one was something like $18,000. They chose not to go down the path because when they converted that to Australian dollars, it was quite close to what they were being offered in Australia. But the $18,000 option would have been suffice. And especially at the age group they were at. For example, I'll give you my scenario. I have had crowns done over most of my teeth. I have three teeth that are not crowned. I had gaps in my teeth, so I had bridging crowns done. The quote in Australia 10 years ago was $48,000. I came here to worldwide, it cost me $5,500. So, in Australian dollars. So, there's the comparison. 10 years down the track, I have had zero complications. I had one tooth that I cosmetically wasn't happy with. There was nothing wrong with it. But in one of my checkups, there was no problem for them to knock that out, replace it and put it in and they didn't charge me. So where do you get a lifetime guarantee in your home country for your dentistry? Like I said!!! Kerry Newsome : All the way. And, you know, we've formed a partnership with them because we have this confidence with their skills, their staff, their abilities. It's a hospital. It's not a shop front. It's not like a dentist off the street. It's a seven level dental hospital. so you know they choose yeah like they make everything you know on site so we've been through the rigours, and I’m terrified of dentists so this was a real big leap of faith for me uh but with Kelley because of her experience and the positivity that's come from that and you know she's shared this same experience with friends and relatives and we've got clients now going through and really loving the time and the workmanship that they put in, the care factor, everything. We can arrange travel, we're their travel partner and if you come through us we can actually give you a 5% discount off their advertised price. So you get it less by coming through us. Anyway, what have you got to lose? You could get a quote and while you're here, it's a short visit, reach out to us, we'll make the appointment for you or you can do it direct, we don't care. Kelley McCarthy : And make sure you mention us. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, to get that discount, to get that reference or get in touch and we'll send you a voucher. So yeah, just a thing to add to the mix of out and about in Vietnam. Now, once again, we really wanted to delve into the hair and beauty side of things. Oh my God. We have traversed this path before in the hair aspect. Now, we're blondes, both of us, right? So, for a starters, they look at us and their eyes roll because their version of blonde and our version of blonde may not be simpatico. Theirs is orange. Ours is blonde. And then there's the aspect of the moisture aspect of our hair and the volume, texture and product. So, you know, they may have different variations of the products that we may never heard of, but, you know, because they start with the word natural, Kelley McCarthy: Avoid natural ladies. Natural is not the go in Vietnam. Kerry Newsome : Not for us anyway. We have tried to go down that path and I have to say failed abysmally and ended up with tortured hair that took us weeks to repair. So it was a pleasure this time, Kelley had managed to find us a really clever dude who runs a salon and he's called Tommy's and Kelley over to you of that experience. Kelley McCarthy : Yeah so Tommy's is trained in the gentleman there that runs that he is actually trained in hair from Europe and from London and it's in the Grand Hotel Saigon level one you can reach out to him via Facebook We'll put all of those links on it. He knows anyone that's got blonde hair, he knows to take some moisture out, then he blow dries down the hair shaft, not up, so you don't look like you've had an electric shock. Very sweet, gives you cups of tea, water, cashew nuts to die for, and the experience. Not the cheapest, so probably similar to Australian prices for blow-dry, as in $40 to $50 Australian for the blow-dry, but this experience takes an hour and a half. So you lay down and get the shampoo, you get a massage, they even give you ears clean. So don't be offended by that when they shove the cotton buds in your ears. They're just giving your ears a little clean as well. And then you sit down for the blow dry. And like I said, I come out of there every time smiling with my hair done. And it lasts quite a few days. Kerry Newsome : And I might add, we have a wedding to go to in a few weeks, a Vietnamese wedding. And Kelley's going to go back to have a Up style done. So that's kind of the confidence level we've got, the kind of treatment that you can get from this guy and his staff. They're all lovely. It was just fully air-conditioned, extremely clean. I felt really comfortable. So yeah, we paid a little bit less than what we would pay at home. But it wasn't the cheap and cheerful. It wasn't with natural products. It was with good quality products. And I walked out with hair that I could… Because you're proud to walk down the street with? Kelley McCarthy : as opposed to our last experience? Kerry Newsome: I don't think I'm even game enough to share with you some of those photos. And I might add, they used some product which I was allergic to, so I turned into Elephant Man. And my whole face, so I couldn't get enough antihistamine, Panadol, whatever I could get down my throat to calm my system down because it just went berserk. And I ended up with a frizz ball of hair. Kelley McCarthy : to dry frisball that was expanding as it got drier they rinsed their hair and the natural to give you ladies an idea out there in lotus water so yes i'm talking about the cricket lotus the locust water which was black so i was terrified that i had blonde hair and i was getting black water put all over it so needless to say natural is out hit me with any chemical you can Kerry Newsome : And like, we're probably not the best advocates for natural wear. Other people would have no problem. So, don't write it off. Just take it from us. This is what our experience was and we're just sharing that with you. Now, I can't finish Hair and Beauty without the experience right up to last night that we had, where we found this beautiful place called Bliss Beauty . In District 1. In District 1, yeah. So, we're staying at the Silverland May at the moment, so it's very close by, about a block and a half. Kelley McCarthy : Yeah, not even that, sort of. And that's in the Japanese district, for those people that are wondering. Yeah, really sweet hotel. Yeah. Kerry Newsome : Anyway, so we stepped into that doorway because they were offering pedicures and eyelash Perming and they do do extensions and extensions and all the rest of it. The girl was lovely She had very good English So she was kind of your meet-and-greet person where everybody else in there couldn't speak much English but still talented in what they did and So I had the eyelash curling and the tint, yeah. It's a long process that, that was like 45 minutes was the time period, but just wrapped. The pedicure alone was fantastic, but that process to get that done, like this morning I'm looking and I'm going, you know what, I'm not going to need makeup on my eyes for the next few weeks, which is just going to be fantastic as I go further out and about in Vietnam. And yeah, I just thought the whole experience was good, don't you? Kelley McCarthy : It was amazing. I must admit for myself though, I did go to have the eyelash perming done and I did start to feel a reaction. So I did put up with it for five or ten minutes and then it was just starting to get too irritable. They were absolutely gorgeous. They removed the product, got it off, then blow-dried, washed my eyes, and didn't want to charge me for the process. Of course, I insisted on paying because they've opened their product, they've tried it, it's not their fault that that's happened. So, just that little bit of good karma back, I insisted on paying, which they were very taken back with that. Kerry Newsome: And he proceeded to give us a gift as we left the premises, which was a hair clip. And you just go, where would you get that back home? Kelley McCarthy: It's that smile, friendliness that gets you across the line. Kerry Newsome : I'm kind of conscious of time, Kelley, and my listeners, I know there's a lot in this, so I hope you are enjoying it. I just want to wrap up with a very quick overview of Saigon After Dark. I mean, Kelley and I aren't at that stage of our life where we're probably getting the full Monty of After Dark experiences in Saigon. But we definitely did venture out and I think we already covered with you the Ciocan where it's like a cigar cocktail bar. We would definitely suggest that for that experience. We mentioned the Zumwhere which we went for the salmon, we went for a cake, you know, like that was all through the night. We mentioned the acoustic bar. There is one in D3 and D2. D2, we think is a little bit more westernized. Kelley McCarthy : It's one… Yeah, international expat area. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, definitely. And I just think the theme of the music and the whole environment, they have one band on for the whole night. where D3 tends to be every three songs it's a different band on and many more artists. Still all very good and it's an absolute fun night. I mean these places don't charge you a door fee but you'll pay that a little bit more in your drinks so just be aware of that. Kelley can speak a bit more to Bui Vien Street more than me. Kel, do you want to just expand a bit on that? Kelley McCarthy : So, Bui Vien Street is worth a walk through, whether you go out at night, whether you want to hit the bars, whether you want to do anything, I think it's a great place just to go down. The lighting, the system of it all is worth a walk through. They call it the backpacker area and the backpacker drinks. Pricing is not of a backpacker's level. For example, a Tiger Beer in a bar along the main strip there, you can be paying $10 to $12 Australian for it. So, it's somewhere you probably wouldn't go to have lots of drinks and lose a bit of control. You want to have your wits about you a little bit. There could be pickpocketing going on down there, so make sure you hold on to everything. I took my 13-year-old through there and he just thought it was amazing. There's live music. Yes, there's some girls in clothes or lingerie or men in jeans with shirts off dancing on podiums out the front, but it's not offensive. It's just an experience. So, you could probably get into the seedy underside of it if you wanted to, but just for an experience to walk through, just the lighting and everything, it's amazing. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, I mean the only caveat I want to share on that one is just being careful with your drinks getting spiked and things like that for everyone. So just keep your wits about you, but yeah, definitely worth a wander through. I want to wrap up, if we can, just on a couple of travel tips , just some things to help you along the way that we think would be handy. I want to talk to you about getting a SIM card. Obviously having data when you're out and about, you'll definitely be able to get Wi-Fi As soon as you put your bum down pretty much anywhere, hotels, restaurants, cafes, beauty places, bars, everywhere, everyone's got Wi-Fi. It's basically a fairly unsecured option for you. So don't maybe look up your bank accounts in it, but you know you'll definitely be able to get your Google Maps and your grabs and everything. But if you want to get a SIM card, Kelley's got some really great advice for everyone on that. Kelley McCarthy : Yep, so generally one of the main ones here is Mobifone , so you can actually buy that I think at the airport, but if you go into Circle K, which is just like a little 7-Eleven or your little convenience store, you can get the SIM cards in those and they are really helpful. They will even put it in your phone for you and set it up. And then it runs for a month, what you purchase. So generally I would say to everybody, put a 100,000 dong on it. That's going to last you a fair while on it. But then as you need to top up, you can just go back in there, say to them you need to top this up. They will check your credit for you. They will show you how to put it on or they will even put it on for you. The tip for that though, I have had somebody travelling with me previously from America. She bought a burner phone from America, didn't work for her. So I think they need to be ensured that they're unlocked. That's an unlocked network phone that you can then just drop another SIM into. And yeah, like I said, we've got one here that we use and we swap it around if we're here. But for myself coming from Australia on a short stint, I just use the $10 a day option. That works well for me. Kerry Newsome : I think the SIM card comes in for people now that we've got the 90-day visa and we've got the multi-entry. You know, over three months and if you're moving around the country, as you know on the Out and About series for this trip for me, you know, I'm going to be in Vietnam and across a lot of out back, for want of a better word, locations coming up. Please stick with the show as we get around. I think the SIM card is definitely a good idea. Definitely. Because you do want that access so you don't get lost, you want Google Maps to understand. you know, it might say… Google Translate. Google Translate with your driver or, you know, just situations which over an extended stay. If you were going to do, you know, a week or a fortnight, well, you might weigh up the options to see what's easy. But the fact that you can top it up at Circle K, if it's an unlocked phone is the key, a mobile phone is the branch. So, I think just we wanted to make sure you got that. Using ATMs is the second thing I wanted to talk about. Now, I have traditionally used ATMs. I'm not really good on that devil of detail as far as every single transaction fee I get charged. However, I do mostly use credit cards in hotels and major shopping centers, etc. It's where I need cash. I try and limit it to getting as much cash out of the ATM as you can. Traditionally, that's around about 3 million. Some will only do 2, which is a real nuisance, but 3 is about the average. You can sometimes go up to 5. Best places to do that would be, you know, your Saigon centers or your Vincoms if you really want that. safety kind of thing. So, you've got to kind of get your head about you and going through DONG with lots of zeros, you can go through it quite quickly because remembering in Australian standards, a million DONG is about 66 Australian dollars at its worst case. So, like just to keep in mind having cash is really important in a lot of street stalls and very outback areas, where if you are in your major cities like Saigon and Hanoi and Hoi An and Da Nang, big cities, you will be able to use your cards fairly easy. Now the trap in using the ATMs, I'm definitely going to lead Kelley into that because she's been able to identify some things with fees. Kelley McCarthy: So if you're using an ATM, yes I'll give you a great exchange rate as Kerry's always said, however I did mention to her the other day just have a look on my card for my bank fees now go and look at yours. So this will vary from bank to bank but you are going to get charged for example I took out 5 million dong and I had a bank ATM fee, then I had an international transaction fee, and then I had a conversion fee. So to take out that five million dong, I got charged bank fees of about 17 to 18 Australian dollars. So it doesn't make it that great when you're doing that. So that's why we say maximize taking it out. Depends on convenience. In all my years of traveling here, I've always bought cash. But that's how comfortable you feel traveling with cash. You can get a great exchange rate for those in some of the jewelry stores and also all the gold shops. And there is a couple of money changes that are really competitive. In fact, they even give you a higher rate than XE, I've found. Kerry Newsome : You're a pretty good negotiator with those gold traders. Kelley McCarthy : And the other tip too, if you're changing $1,000 or something at a time and they've given you a rate, if you've got clean, crisp $50 or $100 notes from Australia or even from your own country, ask them is that the best rate they can give. They will usually increase it if you're doing a larger transaction too. Keep that in mind. My other tip is changing money cash in Saigon. You are going to get a far better exchange rate than what you will if you're changing money in Hoi An or Nha Trang or any of those other places. You get a far better exchange rate here. And sometimes in those other places, it gets a little hard to change cash too. So, Saigon's your spot when you're doing that. Absolutely. Or Hanoi, probably. Kerry Newsome : And as far as the ATM machines themselves, we suggest to avoid HSBC. They have a higher charge. They do. And be very careful when you're looking at the machine that it has the MasterCard or the Visa symbols. Kelley McCarthy : Or the Cirrus. Kerry Newsome: Yes. So that, you know, you're not trying to access it from a machine that, you know, isn't tied to your card or the network payment channel that is tied to yours. So if you've got a MasterCard, try and find the MasterCard symbols and keep it neat. Be very careful to make sure that you pull the card out of the machine. with a receipt. Sometimes you can get receipts and sometimes you don't. But I've got caught with that only once in Laos and it ate my card. Kelley McCarthy : And on that note, I would always suggest if you are relying on just using your card, make sure you have two forms of withdrawing money, whether it's from a credit card or an ATM card. For example, I got hacked the first day I landed here this trip. This trip. And I'll be honest, it's the first time in the 18 years I've been coming here I've ever had my credit card hacked in Vietnam. And who's to say it was Vietnam? You know, these companies sell numbers these days, so it could have been just a coincidence. So, I had to cancel that card immediately and then start using my ATM card if I needed money, which with that debit option now, it's just like a credit card, so it hasn't really been a problem. But make sure you've got two forms of withdrawing money. Kerry Newsome: Yes, definitely. I always travel with two cards. And you can actually look at different travel money cards. So, it's just for travel and you can put the currency of your own country on it. Very few of the travel money cards would carry Vietnamese dong, but certainly I put Australian dollars and then of course it gives me dong when I get here. So, I use that as a second backup should something like what happened with Kelley when she first arrived. Look, everyone, I hope you've got a lot out of this show. I know we've enjoyed exploring Saigon in the last few days and probably going a little bit deeper than I normally would. But also, I hope that you're going to stick with the show as we get further about. Kelley and I took the opportunity to go to Ho Tram, which is about a two-hour trip from Saigon. And that was really lovely. And we've got some fun to share with you on that coming up. And of course, I've got many other places in this whole series. So, please watch out for our social pages, WhatAboutVietnam, TikTok, social media, platforms like Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, all of the ones you normally use. And just thanks for supporting the program. Kelley McCarthy : Before we go Kerry, I just want to mention to everybody that please note we haven't been paid by any of our mentions today. It has all been funded out of our own back pockets and today I return back to Australia to take up my day job for my next return trip here. So, we aren't paid by any sponsors, but you know, feel free to drop some money if you really want us to come back and do some research for you. Just reach out to Kerry, see where that deposit can go, we're open to that too. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, I love your work Kelley, absolutely. We do this because we love this and we love this country and this country's been very good to both of us and we love what we do. Definitely. So, see you next time people and thanks again.

What About Vietnam S5-E1- Vietnam Visa Update and Land Travel Tips taking in Phan Thiet, Hue, and Quy Nhon Before I jump straight into the show, I just wanted to bring to everyone's attention that there's been some really big news, really big exciting news about the visa situation to enter Vietnam. As of the 15th of August, you will be able to extend your stays quite dramatically. So the typical e-visa up until this point has been for those countries that it applies to, you would only be allowed 30 days. That will be extended to 90 days as of the 15th of August. I'm going to put detail of the website that you need to go to, which is the regular, the most authoritative website to use. And I use that sincerely in the sense that it's not a service provided website. It is in fact the immigration website to apply directly to the Vietnam Immigration Department for your visa. So you pay the minimal fee and you know, I've been doing that for years and I recommend all my clients to use that website. So that's where the information will be at present on my last check, just the last couple of days. It's not been updated to reflect this new change, but there's also significant changes to the countries that have been outlined as being waiver free. So the e-visa up until this point, those countries would have 15 days in the country that they could come and visit and not have to pay any visa or apply for any visa status at all. That has now been extended to 45 days. But all the detail will be on the website. The news has really just only come out of the last five days and you know, I'm talking to you on the 30th of June. So please check out the website, whataboutvietnam.com. As soon as the full information has been released, Vietnam, I will make sure I put that on our website. But today, I'm very excited to have Simon White on. Now, Simon's been doing business and visiting Vietnam over the last 15 years and certainly has a similar love of Vietnam. He's been going back and forth. I think he said he had something like 60 trips over 15 years. He says that he's traveled extensively across the country by car, by rail, by bus, by boat. And he just loves the experience of the country, its food and immersing himself in local culture and local traditions and just, you know, musing through the country and really meeting people and doing all sorts of fun things. He's a fun guest. He's got some great insights into some places I've wanted to talk to you about. And they're places like Phan Thip, which is very close to Muna. We have discussed Muna before on the program, but we're doing this show really with a big focus on land transport. And so we're going to be talking about train travel primarily. That's using the reunification train from top to bottom and looking at places to visit by train. And some of those are Phan Thip. Some of those others are like Hue, like Quynh On, like Da Nang, Hanoi, and of course Ho Chi Minh City. So Sit Tight. It's a really jam packed episode. Simon is wonderful at just giving his insights and experiences at a very street level, a very immersive level where he likes to, you know, get out and mix with the locals in the cities, in the country areas and really enjoy the street food, enjoy the different traditions and the nuances between the North and the South. And I think he's going to give you some insights that might help you make up your mind as far as whether you want to do your hops around the country or even mix up your hops around the country between train or whether you go by plane to visit some of these places as they're all interesting. But how you get there is, you know, all part of that journey experience as well. Without further ado, let's bring on the very learned, very talented, very interesting, very fun guest, Simon White. Simon White, welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Look, we've got a lot to talk about in our program today, but maybe just for everyone listening, you could tell us a little bit about your relationship to Vietnam. You know, what keeps you coming back over 15 years and 60 trips I hear? 05:52 Simon White Yes, thanks Kerry. Look, I've got a bit of a long-term love affair with Vietnam, mostly around business aspects because I'm the president of the Australia Vietnam Business Council in Queensland and also I was chairing Vietnam's representative in Queensland and I'm on the advisory board of the Australia Vietnam Leadership Dialogue. And I spend a lot of time in the business aspect of Vietnam. But like most people that go to a new destination, you know, over 15, 20 years ago, I've spent a lot of time also exploring Vietnam and getting to know the country, what there is to do and the people and the excitement of visiting just different destinations around the country. I think the reason I keep going back is there's always something new to explore. There's new flavors. I say, don't just say that from a food point of view because we all know Vietnam is a food destination. But there's new flavors in what's happening with Vietnam and how it's growing up as a country. 100 million people as of a couple of weeks ago. And also the differences between the metropolis of Ho Chi Minh City and the differences between that and Hanoi and what happens all the way in between and all those amazing places and destinations and the amazing country areas where you're back to feeling like you're in the Vietnam of 30 or 40 years ago. Talk to us about your most liked land based transportation and why you would favor one over the other. I think the beauty of land based travel, you know, when you're an airplane and we know this also domestically in Australia, you fly over and look down at things and you have that bird's eye view. But you're not immersed in what's happening on the ground and you're not immersed in the people and their day to day lives. And, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about taking other people to Vietnam and I quite often think when you land in the airport in Ho Chi Minh or Hanoi, it is sometimes confronting if you're not used to it. And I always refer to it as being like a deer in headlights when I take people over there. And I also always meet everybody at the airport and they walk out into that throng of people hanging around and that chatter and noise and down south the heat and the smells and the aromas of an Asian city. And I think that, you know, that can be quite challenging to people. So I think that when you want to immerse yourself in culture, and this also depends on how much time you've got, because if you've got a quick trip and it's seven to 10 days, you need to jump a plane to see a bit of the country and get to know the differences around what happens from the difference between the south to the north and in between. But I think if you've got a bit of time, you know, getting down and getting on some sort of land based travel and we can talk about the options in a moment, really immerses you in the culture and allows you to look out the window, sit back and relax and compare Vietnam as a country and how it's uniquely different to a lot of countries, but also the same in some ways as well. And to watch people go about their day to day lives and to go through, you know, when you're on the train, for instance, you go through the backyards, not the front yards. So you don't see the shiny front of the shops and the places, but you see the backyards and the chickens and the pigs and the washing hanging out and the kids playing along the place. And, you know, it gives you a different experience to what Vietnam is from the perspective of a Vietnamese person. 09:28 Kerry Newsome And I think that's a really good point to mention is that, you know, I think Vietnam has become very much a location that's big on the Instagram set in the sense and social media sense. Everybody's taking the front yard photos and the perfect views and, you know, the rice paddy fields are in there perfectly in bloom and, you know, all the colors are perfect and all the rest of it. Whereas you and I agreed that you can experience a Vietnam that is still steeped in a lot of history. You know, the minority groups aren't just dressed up for fun. They wear those clothes as their normal day to day wear, their traditional costumes. And I think you're right. I think seeing the backyard does give you that immersion in a greater, greater sense. So, I mean, I've done very limited train travel, but in the case that you have got some time and you want this kind of experience, where would you base your train travel? 10:37 Simon White I think you either go south to north or north to south and you do the whole country if you've got time. You know, the reunification train line, which was basically rebuilt after 1975 to reunify the north and the south goes from Hanoi to Ho Chi Minh. Goes all over the country through all the major central towns. It's an amazing trip. You know, you can get a sleeper. It's cheap. I won't say it's luxurious, but it's air conditioned and it's presentable and it's clean. So I think if I was to choose any mode of ground travel, as though I love getting on a motorbike and I love getting amongst it in Vietnam, because then you feel the energy and those sorts of things. Unless you're experienced on motorbikes and you don't have kids, it's not safe mode of transport. Especially on the highways. Unlike Australia, where we sort of, although motorbike riders will tell you otherwise, we're fairly observant of the rules. The smaller you are in Vietnam on the roads, the less important you are. And therefore motorbikes aren't very important. So if I was in a city area, I wouldn't ride a motorbike. But in the country areas off the main roads and highways, I love getting on a bike and going for a ride. And I'll put my son on there with me and we'll ride around the regional roads because the traffic isn't an issue. Land-based options are motorbike, probably not safe and not comfortable. Unless you're an experienced rider and you want to get on a bigger bike and do the whole country. Buses, there's regional buses, which I wouldn't get on at night time because they'll take a 20 seater and put 40 people in it. And it's terrible. And it's not safe. They have the sleeping buses that are OK if you're a five foot Asian frame. But I'm a six foot three Australian frame. So the sleeping bus, my feet are hanging over in someone's head and I can never get comfortable. But also they're not to me, they don't feel safe. And that's just a personal thing. Especially, you know, they're built for overnight travel and overnight. They just don't feel hygienic to me. So you've got private car and cars. Cars are becoming very popular. I won't say that driving ability is becoming better with the volume of traffic on the road. So, you know, private cars are great. And, you know, their Uber equivalent, which is great, is great to get around the cities or regional cities. Yeah, but longer trips. It's you know, it just isn't practical. So it comes down to flying. So I think the train is, you know, it's a great way to see the country. You can sit there and look out the window, see everything happening as I say, see the backyards rather than the front yards. Watch yourself go through, you know, rice paddies and mountains and mountain trails along the coast and back in through little towns and cities. And just just look at the country that's growing up around you. And it's an amazing way in any country to travel, but certainly Vietnam. And I think the other thing with trains is I think they're pretty safe. They don't go that fast. So, you know, so anything that does go wrong, there's not a lot that can go that's going to happen. Not a bullet train. And I think that there's a comfort and a personal space. We quite the three of us will travel and what I'll do is I'll book, I should pay the extra, the extra bed and a sleeper when to make it's four. So you have your own cabin. It costs about twenty dollars for a trip. So it's not expensive. And then you've got your own space and you can do your own thing. And my my advice would be buy some food before you leave your destination. Go to the shop, buy some snacks, buy some food. I would take a few beers because I'm an Aussie. Take some things you want to eat and take it all with you. No one cares. And then you've got all your supplies and you can look at the view. You can read a book. You can watch you can watch something you've downloaded. And it's a really relaxing way to sort of sit back and see the place. And if you get a bit tired, just close your eyes and have a bit of a bit of a rest. So I think it allows you to go from Ho Chi Minh City in the south to Hanoi in the north, for instance, and have a look. And a bit like, you know, Canada or Europe, you can have a time based ticket you can buy where you can get on and off as many times as you like. So you can buy what would be a U-rail type pass. Oh, I didn't know that. That's good to know. And you can buy that and you can basically jump on and off the trains. I mean, you've got to book each leg from a seat perspective when you get when you want to get back on again. But you can jump off at all these small destinations and, you know, ask the ask the people in the in the train station. Or, you know, I find when you ask taxi drivers and people where to stay, you know, 90 percent of the time you're going to get somebody who's going to be pretty straight up with you and say, look, there's a great hotel in town. What are you looking for? What is place to go? So I usually think the advice of the locals is really good. So if you went, for instance, from Ho Chi Minh City going north, I would recommend the people to stop in places like Phan Thiet, which is also Munai, which is the famous kite surfing beach of days gone by. The Ferry Creek or whatever. The Ferry Stream. Yep. Ferry Stream, which you get to the top and you find it just comes out as rice paddies, but it's a beautiful walk. Clean thing, but it actually comes off the runoff from the rice paddies and the farms. But it is a nice little walk. And, you know, Phan Thiet is a seafood town. If you've ever watched Luke Nguyen's series, he cooks on the streets of Phan Thiet quite often because he's got family there. So, you know, it's a seafood town. So you always find a really good seafood meal there. You know, I went to actually went to a seafood buffet there last when I was there in December last year. It was $10 or you can eat seafood. 16:34 Kerry Newsome Oh my God. I'm in heaven. But the interesting thing is whatever you wasted, they weighed and you had to pay them for every 100 grams of waste you had. Oh, you're kidding. That's amazing. I mean, that's an interesting concept. 16:48 Simon White But the food was amazing. It was just so much fresh seafood and, you know, $10 you could sit there all night and eat as much as you want to. So, you know, those sorts of things in Phan Thiet are great. What's the accommodation like in Phan Thiet? Well, I usually stay there with family. So for me, it's easy. But if you know, there's a lot of hotels there. But if you look at Munais Beach for interest, there's resorts. 17:11 Kerry Newsome Oh, yeah, there's resorts in Mui ne for sure. And there's lots of them. 17:15 Simon White And again, look, you know, along the beachfront, I can picture but I can't give you names of four or five. There's a couple of really good resorts there. You know, I'm not a five star resort golfing resort traveler. So they're not the pick for me. I'm more of a get down amongst it, you know, sort of person. So for me, I'm more of a sort of three star as long as I've got a clean bathroom of my own, I'm happy. So for me, it's about sort of casting around and looking at what options there are and what's interesting. And places like Phan Thiet have just a good feel about them. And again, it's a safe town if you like to if you like to ride a motorbike. You know, just be careful if you're not licensed in riding a motorbike in Vietnam. You don't have a license there. Then you are going to have insurance issues. And I would never recommend that everybody go there without having a license to ride a bike. Because I do know of a guy, a European guy who had a with his girlfriend had a motorbike accident. She was killed and he was put in jail for seven years because he hadn't seen this many years ago. So, you know, it's one of those places. But Phan Thiet is a beautiful place to stop. It's on the train line. It's, you know, it's hot, but it's near the beach. And, you know, it's a great, lesser known destination. And Runeau Beach was very, very popular, of course, with the Russians for a long time, but not as much these days. But the money going into the resorts there from an investment perspective means that the opportunities to stay there. 18:42 Kerry Newsome you know, the opportunities of accommodation are increasing all the time. I'm really glad that you've covered off Phan Thiet because it's an area I don't know as much about. I've got a girlfriend, Vietnamese girlfriend of mine who's just moved back there with her family because her family own farmland there and they're doing farming in dragon fruit. So, it's a place I want to go to when I visit next time. 19:10 Simon White The other train trip I've heard is very nice that maybe you can speak to about for everyone is the trip from Da Nang to Hue? Da Nang to Hue? Well, I've done Da Nang to Dong Hui to go up to Phong Nga to the caves and mountains areas that we talked about earlier. But that trip from Da Nang to Hue, it goes along the coastline of the mountains. So you go up through the pass and through the tunnels north of Da Nang and it's just actually a beautiful trip. Unfortunately, with the configuration, if you've got a sleeper, the sleeper is actually on the mountainside. So you've got to keep your sort of room door open to look out to the aisle side. Oh, it's on the wrong side. The port of Da Nang is on the wrong side. Most people just stand in the aisle and look at the view for half an hour to an hour as you go through there. Are you better to do it the other way then? Are you better to do it from the way to Da Nang? I've never done that. I'm assuming if you go south, I don't know whether they turn the train around or they just have an engine at the other end and then the carriage is the same way. Because quite often with train carriages, they just hook up an engine to the other end and go back. The train doesn't turn around itself. So the carriage is still going to have the same configuration. But that's it. If you get a day train that leaves, there's a few of them, but there's one that leaves about 10 am from Da Nang to go north. So if you're doing that Da Nang to Hue trip and you're going to the north, you're going to have to go north. So if you're doing that Da Nang to Hue trip and you go through there, the view is absolutely amazing. And it's just a great way to spend a sort of the day. And it's only about three hours. So if you leave at 10, you're going to get in just after lunch and really nice, really relaxing, beautiful view. And then does it go Da Nang, Hue and then Dong Hoi? Is that the way it goes? Yeah, it goes all the way, Dong Ha, Dong Hui and all the way up. So it just goes all the way up through Ninh Binh and up into Hanoi from there. 21:19 Kerry Newsome So just right. Have you done it all the way to Ninh Binh? No, no, I've done. I've only done Ninh Binh to I've done Hanoi to Ninh Binh and then I've gone as far as Dong Hui. Dong Hui. Well, there's two trains that go to Quynh On now, isn't there? The new Vietage through the Anantara Group. They are running that and that's kind of like from what I can gather is like the Orient Express version with the bar and the and it's very swish. And you can do that trip. And then, as you say, there's the reunification train that goes to Quynh On. Now, can you talk to us a little bit about Quynh On? Because for everyone listening, Quynh On is an area that was a bit of a best kept secret really for Vietnamese, as in the locals knew how beautiful it was. But it's now becoming very much a tourist destination and there's a lot of resorts been built over the last few years and it's really coming of age, so to speak. So, yes, Simon would love you to touch on that trip from Da Nang to Quynh On and tell us a little bit about Quy Nhon. 22:39 Simon White Well, yes, so, you know, Quy Nhon, as you said, great, secret for travelers, but is becoming quite commercialized now. I think, you know, the first time, as I think I said to you earlier, the first time I ever went to Vietnam 15, 17 years ago, I went to a business networking function in the very early days. So it was a very, very, very basic networking in those days. And I won a door prize and the door prize was a weekend at a brand new eco resort south of Quy Nhon. So, of course, the next time I went back, I flew up there and that would have been my first ever experience out of Ho Chi Minh City, except for the usual things, which is Mekong or Cu Chi tunnels and things like that. So it was my first sort of outside of Ho Chi Minh experience. And it was quite, it was a very, very high level resort, but it was quite a remote destination. I remember getting in this, getting met at the airport in this beautiful brand new land cruiser with white leather upholstery, which I didn't fit in there. And taking a drive about an hour south of Quynh On into out on this peninsula on these dirt roads where there was this brand new eco resort, where there was six villas and personal butlers in each room and your own little pool and your own beach hut with personal staff. And you pick up the phone and the butler came running. I remember saying, it's lunchtime, can we get something to eat? And the butler brought the chef down to the room. And he said, he said, oh, we've got some, overnight we've bought some, I think it was sea bass or something off the fishermen out the front, because you can see a little fishing boats, around fishing boats out in the bay. And then next thing this whole fish arrives that's been done with rice paper and vegetables and herbs and things to roll with rice paper. So it was an amazing resort. It was being run by a young 25 year old Swiss graduate American guy graduating. Absolutely amazing young guy, growing all their own vegetables and herbs. Just a beautiful resort. And they had their own fish farm as well across the hill. And I remember going over for lunch and sitting on the dock at the fish farm, choosing your fish out of the fish farm. I don't know what happened. I'm assuming it's still there, but I had never heard about that resort again. And everyone keeps saying, oh, it must be a sixth sense, but it's not. It was independent. But, you know, going on the area is absolutely gorgeous to look at. It's a beautiful beach area. There's, it's quite remote. And I went back there again about a year ago, just just under a year ago, and for a different reason and stayed in town and had a look around. And it's it's it's like a mini-denouncement like the thing was 15 to 20 years ago. Okay. Where, you know, before the masses of beach resorts and, you know, explosion of tourism. So it's a beautiful place to go a little bit off the beaten track. Is there a lot to do there? Oh, there's heaps to do. Look, it's like everything. There's islands off there too. So you can explore that. You know, you can go to the beach, there's snorkeling, there's some there's just beaches you can go to. You know, when I go over there, I quite often take my own mask and snorkel. I don't take flippers and things, it's too much. But I take my own sort of bit of snorkeling stuff to have a look around. You know, as you know, Kerry, a lot of places in Vietnam, you know, you might see one fish and it's scared because it's, you know, there is issues with fishing out the place a bit. And there's not yet a realization about ecological tourism or ecological management of tourism in Vietnam and other areas. And how long the bay would be an example, you know, beautiful place, but you go in the water and you won't see a fish. So, you know, it's one of those things that needs to be worked on in Vietnam is the management of the environment alongside tourism and business. Yes. And I know there's a lot of work being done on that space and a lot of environmental management in corporate business around other things like packaging and things that the rest of the world are working on. But I think when you go to those places, you know, one of the detractors that needs to be worked on, if we can talk to some of the little quirky things, is just the amount of floating rubbish and things like that. And how that detracts from those beautiful places. I saw one recently on a Facebook group around Vietnam. It was this beautiful place with all these beautiful seaweed beds and people taking selfies standing on the seaweed beds. And my comment was this is a beautiful place, but it won't remain beautiful if people don't preserve it. If they keep standing on the seaweed beds taking selfies, they're not going to be any beauty for anybody else to share. So, you know, you get these amazing places, but I guess the, you know, how are they going to be managed and maintained as from an eco perspective? The challenge between fish farms and tourism and the understanding of, you know, maintaining beaches and dealing with rubbish and packaging and things is still a challenge in a lot of areas, unfortunately. 27:42 Kerry Newsome And I think it's a point that we need to raise. And, you know, it comes up intermittently when I'm talking to various guests about rubbish management, around waste, around seeing it. I guess the tourist footprint and the impact it is making on the environment with plastics and all the rest. It is some circles that I mix in and in Vietnam tourism, etc. Do tell me that they're aware of it, they know about it, and there's a lot of working group parties that are trying to engage with professionals and people that are specialized in this to come up with solutions. I think the sad part for me and for everyone listening about this is that some people will then kind of dismiss Vietnam in the sense because that they haven't addressed it at this point and it doesn't look great and it can put them off the whole scene. But I guess if we could kind of put it in the context that, you know, Vietnam is growing at such a rate and speed that I think it's having trouble keeping up with itself. And, you know, certainly with, you know, 60 or 70 million people in the domestic travel market, I'm feeling their footprint just as much as my own as a foreigner. And I think there's going to be a lot more said about this and done about this in the future. But I just hope people can say, look, yeah, it's not great. It needs to be addressed, but don't dismiss Vietnam because in some of these locations, it isn't well managed at this point. So it's kind of a work in progress for one of a better description. 29:32 Simon White You know, I had some interaction with one of the municipal councils in a major city during COVID to introduce them to the head of the UN Environmental Waste Council and things like that to help them. You know, they're looking, they're seriously looking at these things. I think there's not yet a societal awareness of, you know, I'll just chuck that plastic bag down into the area at the back and it doesn't really matter, you know. And I think that's also about, you know, we're still talking about an emerging economy. And I think we're seeing that in people's attitudes are still such that they're not, you know, still focusing on how do I make a dollar, put food on the table, not necessarily what I worry about. Just one of the other areas that I wanted to talk about was Hue. Hue is amazing. I mean, you know, a thousand year old citadel that was the capital of Vietnam at the time. You know, you can still see sort of bullet marks across some of the facies from, you know, previous conflicts from, you know, in the late 60s and early 70s. It's an amazing place to go historically. It's a bit of a place to go and it's still, there's still cheap accommodation available in Hue. There's good food, like any tourist destination, and has challenges around the commercialization aspect. But I think and the volume of people, you know, pre-COVID, when I went through there, it was crazy, the number of buses and the number of people trying to get in and out of the citadel to have a look at it. But that said, you know, I think if you're on holiday, you tend to forget a little about those things. You know, you just said, look, I'm on a holiday and I'm going to enjoy myself and I know I need to stand there some queues and I know there's going to be other people on a holiday too. So I think if you put that aside and you're not trying to rush, you can have a great time wandering around in Hue. And, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about the different, you know, the different empires that have been through Vietnam or what is now Vietnam over the years. And there is, you know, there is history across Vietnam where in places like Hue and in My Son, which is south of, you know, South of Da Nang, where there's history there that's being worked on and explored to look at how that has developed the culture of the people and their belief systems and their family cultural values that you can experience when you go to these places. And you get a feel for why the people of Vietnam are what they are because you go and experience some of the history of the hardship or of the different, different sort of ruling people that have been through. And when you look at the history of Vietnam, you know, pre, pre the 20th century, it's quite interesting to look at those sorts of things. And you see that in, you see that in Hoi An with the Japanese influence, you know, 600 year old Japanese fishing town. You see it in Ninh Binh with the, you know, the 10th century capital city when the river was obviously a lot bigger and things like that. So, you know, there's those sorts of historical things if you've got a bent towards that sort of tourism where you can get in and really explore some of the history of what makes Vietnam, you know, the country it is today. Yeah. And the people that is today and the influences from north to south, just how different they are, how it influences the food, clothing, you know, their farming styles, their eating styles, their… So socially they're different people. People used to say to me, you know, everyone says, what do you prefer? Do you prefer HCMC or Hanoi? And I used to prefer HCMC in because the people were a lot more relaxed in the south. I'm finding that the people in Hanoi now are becoming more relaxed because they're becoming more used to Westerners, you know, tourists and what they need to do. We're certainly talking about the old town who can area in that conversation. But and Ho Chi Minh is becoming now a major high rise sort of city with developments and there's a swing, although, you know, a lot of people in the south will tell you otherwise. But I do feel there's a lot more embracing of tourism and people in the north now and more acceptance and more openness and more smiles, more friendliness than there was 10 plus years ago. 34:09 Kerry Newsome Absolutely. Simon, I'm aware of time, so I'm just wanting to wrap up if we may. Do you have any last kind of comments that you'd like to talk to, you know, just around our main focus at land based travel? 34:27 Simon White Sure. I think the first thing is don't be scared to land in, you know, most international flights embark into An Ooi or Ho Chi Minh. Don't be scared just to say, look, I've got a couple of days of accommodation booked in a hotel or Airbnb or whatever it might be. Don't be scared not to do that. When you go to those cities, you will find every type of global food that you'd find anywhere else. You can have Thai food, Indian food, American hamburgers, steak houses, pasta, Italian, French, all those influences of food in there. So don't be scared if you've got dietary beliefs and you think you're going to land in Vietnam and have to eat just Vietnamese food for 30 days straight. Sometimes our Western bellies can't do that. So I think we've got to be cognizant that they are international cities. Everything you need is there. You know, you've probably touched before in other podcasts around things like, you know, medical services and insurance and all those things. But, you know, all those services you need are going to be there. My recommendation to people is also get yourself a local SIM card. I always have a Vietnamese SIM card I put in my main phone. So I've got all my data based stuff. And then I put my Australian SIM card in a secondary phone so I can still receive texts and phone calls from Australia if I need to from a business perspective. But I have a local SIM card. I put it in my Australian phone. And then I'm internet connected to all the apps and all the travel apps and all the things like that. Get on to, you know, without advertising, get on to Grab before you go and set up your Grab account because Grab is the way people get around if they're not using taxi. Absolutely. Swear by it. It's just your Uber equivalent. It's the same thing. It's a fantastic service. And don't be scared to, you know, to grab your water bottle and go for a walk. I spend a lot of time in Vietnam when I'm between work engagements, walking around the places I'm in. It doesn't matter where I am, but certainly in the cities. And I just say, look, you know, especially post COVID when I was there last year in May and then again in June, you know, September and October and December, I'd spend a lot of time just walking around, not in the middle of the day when it's 36 degrees, but in the evening. And I just put a shorts, t-shirt and a pair of joggers on. And I just walk up and down the streets and say, what's new? What's closed? What's not there anymore? And get a feel for what's going on in the city. Get into the vibe. Walk down the back alleyways, you know, the best places that you're ever going to find in those places, the back alleyways of the cities. 34:09 Kerry Newsome Absolutely. Absolutely. Simon, I'm aware of time, so I'm just wanting to wrap up if we may. Do you have any last kind of comments that you'd like to talk to, you know, just around our main focus at land based travel? 34:27 Simon White Sure. I think the first thing is don't be scared to land in, you know, most international flights embark into An Ooi or Ho Chi Minh. Don't be scared just to say, look, I've got a couple of days of accommodation booked in a hotel or Airbnb or whatever it might be. Don't be scared not to do that. When you go to those cities, you will find every type of global food that you'd find anywhere else. You can have Thai food, Indian food, American hamburgers, steak houses, pasta, Italian, French, all those influences of food in there. So don't be scared if you've got dietary beliefs and you think you're going to land in Vietnam and have to eat just Vietnamese food for 30 days straight. Sometimes our Western bellies can't do that. So I think we've got to be cognizant that they are international cities. Everything you need is there. You know, you've probably touched before in other podcasts around things like, you know, medical services and insurance and all those things. But, you know, all those services you need are going to be there. My recommendation to people is also get yourself a local SIM card. I always have a Vietnamese SIM card I put in my main phone. So I've got all my data based stuff. And then I put my Australian SIM card in a secondary phone so I can still receive texts and phone calls from Australia if I need to from a business perspective. But I have a local SIM card. I put it in my Australian phone. And then I'm internet connected to all the apps and all the travel apps and all the things like that. Get on to, you know, without advertising, get on to Grab before you go and set up your Grab account because Grab is the way people get around if they're not using taxi. Absolutely. Swear by it. It's just your Uber equivalent. It's the same thing. It's a fantastic service. And don't be scared to, you know, to grab your water bottle and go for a walk. I spend a lot of time in Vietnam when I'm between work engagements, walking around the places I'm in. It doesn't matter where I am, but certainly in the cities. And I just say, look, you know, especially post COVID when I was there last year in May and then again in June, you know, September and October and December, I'd spend a lot of time just walking around, not in the middle of the day when it's 36 degrees, but in the evening. 36:34 Kerry Newsome And I just put a shorts, t-shirt and a pair of joggers on. And I just walk up and down the streets and say, what's new? What's closed? What's not there anymore? And get a feel for what's going on in the city. Get into the vibe. Walk down the back alleyways, you know, the best places that you're ever going to find in those places, the back alleyways of the cities. And, you know, once again, that's another good point that you brought up. You know, I think Westerners have been trained or from a societal perspective, you don't go down alleys, you know, like, you know, alleys are dangerous and on that. Because I know just recently in Ho Chi Minh City, I was taking my sisters down this alley and they're going, Kerry, do you really know where you're going? Like, you know, we love you and all the rest of it, but seriously. And I go, now look, just trust me. And sure enough, we'd go down this alley and the next thing we're going up these stairs. And then, you know, we're in the cat in that building and there's beautiful boutiques and coffee shops and all of this. 37:37 Simon White Little coffee, little courtyards with trees and light food. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think, you know, I know time constraints, but look, the other thing is get out of Ho Chi Minh is district based like Paris, District 1. Yes. You know, get out of District 1. Go to, you know, don't go to Nestle District 5 for the backpack area is not the only place to go. But you get out of those places. Go out into District 3, District 10, whatever it might be. Have a little bit of a wander around, start in the daytime to make yourself feel comfortable. And, you know, you'll find things like a whole street of plumbing supplies and a whole street of coffee and a whole street of kitchen supplies. And it's amazing to get into those places. And that's why I say again, grab because you can get grab a motorbike. Yes. If you want to put, put your, they have a second helmet, whack it on, sit in the motorbike and say, I did this in Hanoi with some friends one year. I had 10 friends with me. We got, we just walked down the road. We got 10 grab guys. We said, how much for four hours? Take us around town. And they took us all over town. Ended up being six hours. We went to an amazing restaurant that you'd never find unless you're a local for lunch. Yeah. We, you know, you just saw all these things that you wouldn't see by going down all the back alleys and they ain't stopping. And the experience, that's the experience of Vietnam. It's not sit in my international hotel and talk to other travelers while I have an air conditioned buffet breakfast. You know, it's, it's, you know, when I stay in Vietnam, we're staying in Hichimin now. I stay in an Airbnb apartment where I now know the guys that runs it. So I talked to him directly. It's a two bedroom apartment. It's in an old alleyway. I have ladies who have got five or six different choices of dish all day, every day down downstairs as I walk out with braziers. I've got a coffee shop on the same floor. I've got a Japanese restaurant downstairs. I've got a pizza place downstairs. I've got, you know, noodle place around the corner. I've got anything I want within a hundred meters, but I'm a part of Vietnam's ecosystem. I'm not sitting in international hotel in a dog box room that's decorated like every other hotel in the world. 39:38 Kerry Newsome And I walk out of my room and I've got 50 stairs up and down. So that's okay. But I'm walking up and down with the locals who live in that apartment block. Yeah. And I think if you want to feel like you've been to Vietnam, that's what you've got to do. I think a lot of people do stick with their favorite brands in hotels and they want that luxury experience. And, you know, that sensory overload for some is just a little bit too much to take on. But I think and one thing I really want to encourage people is that you probably most likely not 100% not going to see or feel all of Vietnam in one visit. It's just kind of impossible to get to everywhere in one visit, in my opinion. I think if you can kind of stage it and say, look, let's let's just do the north and have a look at the north or, you know, let's have a look at some of the main areas in the south or maybe concentrate just in a region, maybe the center and the north. 40:44 Simon White And look, you know, the other thing is we've got we've now got, you know, three three direct airline flights in and out of Australia. We've got three three brands now flying directly. And as of as of June, Vietjet flies directly from Brisbane to Ho Chi Minh City, which is great. Correct. But we've got in Sydney and Melbourne, we've got Vietjet, Bamboo and Vietnam Airlines flying direct flights. So there's lots of choices at lots of prices, lots of different travel levels there. And I think you've got to get you've got to walk past those alleyways and look at them and walk. No one's going to have a gauge. No one's going to no one's going to mug you walking down an alley in the daytime in Vietnam. I often say, look, you know, sometimes I used to say to my my friends and family, I feel like my spaceship just landed because I must have to look at you. But that doesn't matter. You know, I just smile and I walk down and I find the best places. I found some amazing little bars, amazing coffee shops and the restaurants. There's one place I go to in off past and Ho Chi Minh City. And I walk up four flights of stairs past people's washing and apartments and outdoor kitchens to get to this. To find it. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. The feel of those places is, you know, look at the steps and people have been walking up and down those steps for 100 years. Yeah. You know, with their lifestyles and you look out across the rooftops and the chimney stacks and the hot water systems and the cats. And, you know, I remember being in a panoramic one, roosters crowing next door next to the hotel on the rooftop. And there's a cat on the other side of two dogs barking. You know, it's being amongst that stuff that makes Vietnam different than Australia. Even if the rooster's waiting at 5.30, get up, go out, yell at it, get up and enjoy it and walk around the town. Vietnam has different times of day that it opens up. Five o'clock in the morning, four o'clock, five o'clock, six o'clock in the morning, all the people go off to work for the early day. And you walk outside and it's a different world. But then you hit the middle of the day and all the 10 or 11 o'clock and all the shops and all the shutters go up and everything started to open up from a point of view of commerce. And then, of course, as you go into the evening and Vietnamese people will come back out again because there's no sun because they don't like the sun. So therefore the whole new world, the lights, the motorbikes, the young people, the bars, the coffee shops. I've been on the street sitting on the little kids tables and chairs on streets in towns and cities eating and suddenly a motorbike pulls up and two or three young girls get off the back with a boombox and they start dancing on the street promoting a nightclub somewhere. And they get back on again and they ride off. Just totally random stuff happens. And you sit, don't be scared to go into those little cafes and sit on the kids tables and chairs because you'll eat the best food. I was going to say, I've only ever been sick once in Vietnam in almost 20 years in 60 plus trips. And it was an international five star hotel breakfast buffet where the capsicum for the omelette was off. I've never been sick with street food. I've never had a bad, you know, never, ever had a bad meal in Vietnam. I've had a couple of average ones, but never had a bad meal. And those little cafes on the street, they put the tables and chairs out at night time and you sit down and you don't go in the kitchen. You don't know about it. But look at the food and you will find some of the most amazing fresh food. And, you know, pre-Vietnam, I would never have eaten snails. I would never have eaten duck egg embryos. I would never have eaten goats, goat meat, barbecued and all these other amazing things.
 
But when you start into those sorts of food in Vietnam, right now, I'm salivating in my mouth thinking of going back to Vietnam. And every time I get on the plane here to go, I start thinking about what am I going to eat each day and what flavor is going to be. And I start getting hungry because there's, you know, you get the most unsuspecting meals in the most unsuspecting places by just sitting down in some little cafe and trying to work out. I've got a bit of Vietnamese, but, you know, work out what is on the menu. Do some sign language about what it is you're about to eat and say, look, I'll just have that. And then don't worry about what it is. Dip it in whatever's with it. And it's just amazing. Every time it's just amazing. Oh, no. And that's the experience of Vietnam. And ask that the young kids will come up and I say, you know, go get me a beer, will you? And they'll go across to the shop and buy beer. Come back. You know, I remember sitting on the beach in Nha Trang years ago. Lady came up with, you know, the stick across the shoulders with two pots. She had lobster with her son. You know, I was at the sailing club on the on the on the Lilo's out there. And she came up and she put down the grass, the reed mat, sat down, pulled it out, pulled out a fresh lobster. She just bought it from markets that day, marinated it, put the brazier down, cooked the lobster. And someone up and bought some beers at the shop and brought them back. And I sat there and had fresh cooked lobster with rice vegetables, corn on the brazier, sweet potato on the brazier and beer on the beach. And it cost me like $5. 45:45 Kerry Newsome I was going to say it cost you about $5. Yeah, I was going to say. 45:50 Simon White Don't be scared. Don't be scared to get involved. No one's trying to rip you off. You know, even the guys who even the guys who walk around polish your shoes just because they run off of the shoes. But, you know, they're just trying to make a living. They're just trying to make a living. They're not there to scam you. They're just trying to make a living. Stay away from offers of drugs. Stay away from offers of, you know, pool parlors and young girls and karaoke and that sort of thing. When people go past on motorbikes. But don't be scared of the old guys that say, do you want a motorbike? Because those old guys are made everything that moves in that town. 46:22 Kerry Newsome You're in everywhere. Simon, I'm so glad to have you on because you kind of support and speak of with a passion and love of Vietnam as I feel. So I feel like I'm vindicated just by having you on. So that's really terrific. 46:41 Simon White I have to say, you know, I really appreciate the conversation. It teases out. You know, I visualize these experiences. I talk about them and, you know, I'm just sitting here saying I better get on my next trip. I want to experience those things, you know, and I want to go and go and do those things again. And look, every my son will come in from the other room and listening to the end of our conversation here. And he always says, you know, what are we going back when we go back? Because he's always thinking about what the next experience is. 47:11 Kerry Newsome Yes. And, you know, I have a bit of withdrawal when I come back because, you know, I bit like you. I get out and about and I experience these things. So, you know, life back here sometimes feels a little bit vanilla after, you know, time in Vietnam. So it takes a little bit of reconditioning when you get back because the experiences and the energy and the people, the openness or all of that just is it gets under your skin. 47:42 Simon White The French used to call it Indochina Malad, which is, you know, the Indochina sickness that you catch and never want to go home. Yeah. Yeah, they used to call it Indochina sickness. And, you know, with Cambodia and Vietnam, you know, as parts of France many years ago. But and French people have disappeared and just never come back, you know. But I think that, you know, my advice is when you're coming back and you go, I'm going to miss that, is book the next trip before you come back. Yeah, I do. I sit in Vietnam. I do too. Because I start to look forward to what happens on the next one. 48:17 Kerry Newsome Simon, thank you so much for coming on the show. We'll leave it there. But I look forward to talking with you again and just thank you for your time and sharing some of your experiences. It's been wonderful. 49.00 Simon White - Thank you so much. What about Vietnam.

Out & About in Saigon with What About Vietnam host Kerry Newsome Kerry Newsome : Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Today I'm inviting you to join me in what I'm calling a mini-series and that mini-series is actually going to be an invitation to you to join me while I'm out and about in Vietnam on my holiday. Now the reason I wanted to do this series was to I guess chronicle the experiences, the destinations and some of the people I get to meet in Vietnam and over the next about 60 days I'll be trying to record as I go different places, experiences and just activities and things that I want to share with you that I hope will help you with your planning and give you some guidance around coming to Vietnam and what to expect. So, let me give you some context to the Out and About series. Firstly, every time you see Out and About as a title on my show, on the website, you'll know that that's what the basis of these are. So, we're going to kick off today with Out and About in Ho Chi Minh City. as this is the first city that I have arrived into and it actually kind of begins the show and the series. So we kick off with Ho Chi Minh City. Now I wanted to just give a little bit more context to this series in the sense that it's not going to be a series where I give you kind of a whole list of things to do and you know kind of send you off into various places. It's more about me trying to give you a sense of what to expect, what I have experienced personally and in each situation it's obviously going to be different but I'm hoping that you can take this information and then apply it to everything that you're doing as far as preparing for your trip because for me Vietnam is just not one of those countries that you to get the best out of it anyway, is that you can just kind of lob here and just hope it all goes merry well. It is a country that deserves some research. And one of the things that's come up over the nearly last four years of me doing this podcast has been the sense that you all are starting to go down that path of research to, you know, possibly plan a trip. And some of you reach out to me individually, which I love. But like, I think it's quite overwhelming. And I think what I'm hearing is that that overwhelm almost puts you off coming. So I'm trying to for one of a better description, kind of break through the chatter and clatter and all the rest of it because there's a thousand websites out there. There's a thousand YouTube videos. I don't want to and nor am I trying to compete in that space. I'm trying to just, I don't know, help you decipher, help you have some insights so that when you look at things you can look at them with informed eyes and you can make some decisions. So without further ado, let's kick off out and about in Saigon or Ho Chi Minh City as it's known. Now firstly I want to share with you my experience getting here. as it has a little bit of a good story to it and a not so good story. So firstly, the good story. So I'm on the plane and I'm traveling from Australia and Just as we're about to arrive, two lovely ladies sitting across the aisle from me, one of them reaches out and says, are you Kerry Newsome? And of course I say yes, and they say, look, we are on our trip to Vietnam because of your podcast called What About Vietnam? We're planning four weeks, we listened to this episode and that episode, and it kind of inspired us to do this trip. So, I just want to reach out to those ladies who I didn't get a chance to get their names, but I just want to say hello and I hope you're having a great time. And for me, that was just such a personally rich experience to have that, you know, my podcast is reaching your ears and you are being able to use it to help you put your trip together and make decisions to come. Then the other not so good news. So the gentleman sitting next to me on the plane for the whole trip kind of arrived into his seat and I could kind of tell he was agitated and I thought, gee, we've only just begun, I wonder what this is about. He'd actually been to Vietnam before and had a great experience and was coming back a second time with some friends. But as he went to check in at the check-in counter at Vietnam Airlines, he presented his visa. But unfortunately, the visa was one day out in matching up with his dates of arrival into the country. So, that was actually a barrier to entry and they were not going to permit him to check in and to take the flight. So, the advice he was given was to, the only advice really they had to offer, was to go to a flight centre shop at the airport and that they had a VIP emergency kind of service, e-visa service, that they could put together, but the cost of that service was $500, $500 Australian dollars. Now, if you know what the cost of a visa doing it normally through the immigration site for a 30-day visa, it's $25 US, and for a 90-day visa, multiple entry, it's I think $90 or $100. So of course he was quite upset, he was quite irate. He couldn't believe that that small element of just the date not matching up exactly was going to be a problem and thus would mean that he couldn't join the flight with his wife and take this trip unless he did do that service. So, I know I go on and on about getting a visa and from the very first, I guess, thing that you put together as far as your planning is concerned, please spend the time necessary to get that e-visa and to get it right. It's something, even as many times as I've done it, I go through it religiously. The questions on the website have actually increased, so you do need to spend a bit of time in answering them. But as you can see, the impact that it has if it doesn't match up exactly to your passport and to your airline ticket can mean that you don't even get to come to Vietnam. So I just wanted to throw those in just to make sure that when you are thinking of getting out and about in Vietnam, you're not even going to get the chance to get here unless you get some of these pieces correct in the first instance. Now, a little bit more about the episode. When I'm out and about and I'm doing this series, I'm going to be doing it with obviously a sense that I want to continue with the quality, but there's going to be times where you're going to hear roosters and taxi hooting. You're going to hear some noises that I really can't control, but Guess what folks? These are definitely the sounds of Vietnam. So please forgive me if at times you do experience that. I'm hoping to keep that to a minimum. And of course I want to keep the program in such a way that I can be mobile with it and as I'm going to each place I can record. So over the next you know six to eight weeks we're going to be doing lots of recordings and they're going to be a bit shorter and a little bit sharper about the experiences that I'm having. Now, when you enter into Ho Chi Minh City, you know, depending on where you've come from, so for myself, a flight from Australia is roughly about eight hours. Vietnam has three international airports, so you're going to come into either Ho Chi Minh or Hanoi or Da Nang, depending what country you're coming from. So you've already been in transit to get here from Australia, about eight hours plus three hours at the airport. If you're coming from the US, it's probably a minimum of 14 hours coming from San Francisco. But if you're coming more from Southeast Asia or Singapore or Bangkok, it's only about five hours. But for me, when I arrive into Ho Chi Minh City, I'm tired so I've had a good night's sleep. I always make sure I try and get into a flight that will enable me to you know unpack, get a good night's sleep and get up on the next day. Now depending on what sort of flyer you are also you know I tend to on that first day if you have time Now time is a commodity we all know and for you, you may not have the chance to add in this day but if you do have the opportunity to make your first day a little bit of a free day so that you don't have something booked, you don't have something set or organized, I would really urge you to take that first day to just use it as a day of orientation. And I say that because when you're jet lagged, when you are a bit tired, when your body is readjusting to, you know, new temperatures, new smells, new environments, your hotel, your air conditioning, all of that kind of stuff, you can kind of experience things, but not really experience them. For me, I'm a bit of a space cadet that first day and certainly as I've got older, I'm more so. So I'm just saying that on that first day and possibly even the last day of your trip, if you have the chance to keep it free, do so. Take it up because there's some things you can still do to orientate yourself that I think give you a greater sense of where you are and is going to help you take in what you see. Now let me share with you Ho Chi Minh and what it means to me. Years and years ago, when I used to travel to Ho Chi Minh City, I kind of used it as a stepping stone. I came in and then I just went somewhere else. But over time, Ho Chi Minh City has really evolved. It's a very high energy city. It's a very busy city. And I speak of the busyness side of it in respect to not only the amount of motorbikes and traffic on the streets, but even on the sidewalks. The sidewalks of Vietnam streets, and in particular big cities, are not like controlled by councils or governments etc like they are in my country where you are not permitted to do anything on those or you have to get permissions to do that. On the sidewalks you've got people that are sitting on little red chairs and eating food. You've got street sellers selling their wares for everything from peanuts to fruit to, you know, small meals. You've got barmy vendors. So, whichever way you go, it's happening. So, getting back to what I'm saying about orientating yourself to the city, it's really good to get a handle on that just to begin with. If you're traveling in a group, if you're traveling with your partner or with a young family or whatever, everybody's kind of got to get their footing. And I speak of the footing side of it as well, as not all the streets are paved with gold. Most of the streets are in kind of poor condition. You're going to be stepping around people. You're going to be stepping over broken streets and cement. There's a lot of construction going on. There's a lot of noise. There's a lot of tooting of horns. So when you are in that state of just trying to get to grips with everything as a newbie to the country, that first day can be quite confronting, can be quite in your face. and so it's good to ease yourself into it so that it can come alive for you in its various ways and give you the experience that I think you can have here. So for me there's three or four approaches to Ho Chi Minh City. Now the first one is you can decide to hit all the top attractions. So, the city itself has, you know, various, I guess, top must visit tourist destinations. So, in that first day, I wouldn't be doing that. I choose not to do that. What I choose to do is try to find just my bearings of where my hotel is, where it is in proximity to lots of things and you know from the get-go I start to assimilate or become attached to the country in getting to know it. And I start by putting on my phone certain things. We've talked about over the years about putting some certain apps on your phones. So firstly I would suggest setting up the Grab app. Now there's other forms of Grab. Grab is kind of relative to what is in my country an Uber. So this is a car, share car opportunity where they can pick you up and take you wherever you want and it's so easy to use. I use it with cash only and I make sure I give a small tip to the drivers. I like Grab because it gives me a way to communicate with the app, with the driver, even if the driver can't speak English. I can tell from their phone and mine matching that they have Kerry Newsome on their phone and they have the same destination. So I put the Grab app. I then have the Exe app. Why do I have that? Because that gives me a very quick way to work out money. So this is another part of your orientation to the country. you know you've got to get used to lots of zeros. You know a million zeros in any language sounds a lot, a million dong, wow is that a lot of money. In my country that's around about 60 something dollars. depending on your currency, the currency that you're bringing into the country, that Exe app is going to be able to tell you when you look to buy something, whether it's a cup of coffee or a meal or something that you want to purchase, whether or not you're getting a good price for it. You're happy to pay that price for it. Or you can kind of be comfortable with the price that you're paying and not feel like you're getting ripped off. Really, really important. I've seen people get quite upset about having to pay another $10,000 for something when they find out later it was like $0.60. As far as apps are concerned, I definitely think those two are the kind of the essentials. Obviously, Google Maps is another one and it's also part of this orientation. So again, I'm sitting in a coffee shop And I'm having a look at Google Maps and going, I really want to go and have one of my favorite coffees, which is a iced coconut coffee. And I'll work out where the nearest coffee shop to get that is from my hotel. And even before I'm going to use the Grab app, I'll use the Google Maps to find out roughly how long it's going to take me to get from A to B. So if it's 17 minutes or it's 20 minutes or whatever, I know then how much time to allow to do that. So, once again, Google is your friend in Vietnam, for sure. Google Translate is also another one. I mean, the joy of Ho Chi Minh City is it's a very modern city, so in most of your tourist destinations and your hotels, and things like that. You know, the receptionist staff, et cetera, are really good at being able to speak good English in most cases. And certainly, as you're getting about in hospitality and in retail, et cetera, they'll have some basics. But on the street and street vendors, no, you're not going to be able to do that. So Google Translate is very handy there. The other thing is to decide how you're going to use Wi-Fi. You can buy a SIM card. You will need your passport for that. So you'll need to go to a Mobi phone or a phone shop, etc. to get the SIM card, replace it into your phone, etc. And that will give you mobile data. And that will mean that on the go, while you're getting out and about, you can access that. However, I found it just as easy to go to a particular coffee shop or set myself down in a restaurant or whatever and I will use the free Wi-Fi that comes with literally 99% of places that you can get that on your phone and use these apps if you need to do them. So options up to you however you want to do that. So getting back to our approaches, you can take yourself off onto the path of seeing all of these wonderful tourist destinations in Ho Chi Minh City. And that can be everything from the Notre Dame Cathedral through to Walking Street, and I want to get back to Walking Street in a minute, Bui Vien , the Temple of the Jade Emperor, The City Post Office , always great for photos. Turtle Lake. Starlight Bridge is a little bit further out. And of course, places like the Pink Church . See link here to main attraction: https://www.visithcmc.vn/en/news/10-diem-du-lich-mien-phi-o-tphcm-khong-the-bo-qua Now, the second approach you can take is actually moving a little bit out of Ho Chi Minh City. In this sense, you're going to be experiencing some of what the South of Vietnam has to offer in history and in nature and in the Mekong, I guess. So there's plenty of tourist desks around. Even your hotel can help you organize this. Or for many of you, if you've been asking me to put this together for you, I'm going to suggest a tour to the Cu chi Tunnels, or out to Ben Tre, or Cantho, or a visit to the Mekong Delta to experience. that local region and that's going to help you immerse into what I would call is the essential Vietnam. The Vietnam you've probably read about and seen the images where you're getting through all of these sort of areas where there's jungle and there is that feeling of local, you know, very, very poor areas in some cases, but you're going to get the essential Vietnam and you're going to get that with a mixture of some history and especially in places like Cu Chi Tunnels . And then the third approach that you have in your first 24, 48 hours, whatever time you decide to spend in Ho Chi Minh City, is what I choose to do now because I've seen all these things and I've experienced them all. I tend to want to go out and just wander the streets, kind of get a bit lost. And I do that very easilt I have to tell you. And I like getting lost in Ho Chi Minh City because I find different eateries, I find different vendors selling different types of goods. And every single time, depending on where I position myself as far as a hotel, even though it's in District 1 or it's in District 3 or District 5 or for that matter even District 2, there's going to be something new. And getting back to me kind of saying about the research, before I come here, I will have done some research and said, yeah, I want to check that out. Now, this time I stayed in a little hotel. It was a three-star hotel called La Opera . And I love this little hotel as it's in a beaut little area and I find it very easy to maneuver myself around wherever I want to go. So it's easy walking distance to most things. But also what comes with that is the experiences of that local area and your hotel reception staff is also going to be very good at being able to tell you what you can find close to the hotel. So really my first day just got taken up with experiencing different cafes, different shops. I still manage to get myself to the big shopping centers, so that's your Vincom and your Saigon Centre . And they're the ones that typically that you would acknowledge as being kind of the shopping mall. These are very modern, so they've got your H&M's and all of that. Or you can experience Ben Thanh Markets. And Ben Thanh Markets is prolific. It is iconic. It is one of the must-do's on that shopping experience. And you know, some people love it, some people hate it. It's an experience in itself and that That whole shopping experience is something that you may talk about for years to come. And as I said, you either love it or you hate it. but it all happens in Ben Thanh Market and it's probably where you're going to get, you know, your copy products, you're going to be able to barter and you're going to be able to get some good deals. But be aware that you need to have your wits about yourself in there because you may enter in one door but then come out another and, you know, be quite disorientated with that. So, take that into consideration. I have another market that I like called Saigon Square, and it's opposite one of the major shopping centers. And it's a smaller version of Ben Thanh Markets . And I think it's got a little bit of, I don't know, feeling that you can move around it a little bit easier. and a lot of the same stuff, but just a little bit more under control. You might pay a little bit more there than you would in Benton markets, but certainly it's got all the stuff that you need. As I said first approach is to go and visit all the major destinations in and around the city. Second is to you know just get lost in the city and then the third is to just relax. Just take in your hotel, take in just chilling out and as I said familiarizing yourself with the hotel experience. If it's got a nice pool, if it's got a nice bar and maybe save yourself up for the night time. Now for me, I love Ho Chi Minh City at night. While I've mentioned all these things about going out to the tunnels and and going shopping that's probably kind of stuff I would do during the day but once again it'll depend on the heat. But at night the city is just neon fizz, it is just It's electric, it really is. It's just got an energy about it that you will just be blown away from. And in particular, you can start seeing the city in this viewpoint from what they call Walking street. And walking street is really easy to spend time in because you don't have to kind of dodge traffic and and things like that like you do in some of the other areas. Plus what it has very close to it is some very eclectic, very kind of eccentric little cafes and it's just really lovely. You've got rooftop bars, You've got the Cafe Building which I really urge you to go and check out. You'll go up stairs and stairs and then you'll just discover all these different cafes and it's just really easy to get around and you can spend hours just getting yourself lost in that region and at night there's lots of entertainment going on. Another favourite place of mine is the Acoustic Bar and you can go there any night of the week and they're going to have a different artist on to entertain you with some really great music. and there's also a small bar next door to that which is getting local artists coming on every night of the week as well. So you're not going to be short of entertainment. You've also got Bui Vien Street which definitely comes alive at night. You've got all your big craft brewers in those streets. So you've got plenty of entertainment and that's just all in the first 24-48 hours. So you've got some culture if you've gone out of Ho Chi Minh City and you've got into the Mekong Delta and you've explored some of the countryside, or you've decided to stay in the city, get a little bit lost, have some beautiful cakes and explore the cafe culture, which is very, very rich, and do it that way. Or you've decided to relax or you've just gone shopping crazy. I hope you're going to enjoy this series. I've certainly enjoyed Ho Chi Minh again this time. I got to experience some great music at Acoustic Bar . I had a fab night that night. I found a couple of new restaurants and the food was just sensational. Don't think that you are going to be limited to just Vietnamese food. You'll just think about a cuisine and it will be here. So you've got your Korean, you've got your pizzas, you've got good Italian, you've got Thai, you've got fabulous Vietnamese food. And just go wild. Just try all the different kinds of new foods and foods that are particular to the South. And in particular, when you're looking at fur, there's a different flavour to fur in Ho Chi Minh City that you will be able to taste the difference here to how it is in the north. It's made totally differently. And of course, there are particular dishes that are exclusive to this area. I hope you're going to enjoy my next Out and About which is to be in Hoi An. That's my next stop. So stay tuned for the Out and About series. These are all going to feature on your normal podcast channels and of course on the website whataboutvietnam.com. Thank you for joining and see you in Hoi An. 00:00:02 - Introduction to "What About Vietnam?" Podcast 00:00:38 - Mini-Series Announcement 00:01:02 - Purpose of the Mini-Series 00:01:44 - "Out and About" Series Context 00:02:06 - Starting with Ho Chi Minh City 00:02:27 - Series Format and Expectations 00:03:19 - Importance of Research for Vietnam Travel 00:03:52 - Overcoming Travel Planning Overwhelm 00:04:34 - Arrival in Ho Chi Minh City and Visa Issues 00:05:09 - Podcast Impact on Listeners' Travel Plans 00:06:03 - A Cautionary Tale About Visa Dates 00:08:03 - Emphasizing the Importance of Correct Visa Application 00:09:09 - Series Recording and Sound Authenticity 00:10:15 - Arriving in Ho Chi Minh City and Jet Lag 00:11:10 - First Day Orientation Advice 00:12:57 - Ho Chi Minh City's Evolution and Energy 00:15:28 - Approaches to Exploring Ho Chi Minh City 00:17:04 - Essential Apps for Vietnam Travel 00:18:39 - Exploring Ho Chi Minh City's Attractions 00:21:12 - Day Trips Outside Ho Chi Minh City 00:23:37 - Personal Approach to Experiencing the City 00:25:17 - Hotel and Local Area Experience 00:27:26 - Nightlife in Ho Chi Minh City 00:30:56 - Recap and Next Destination Teaser 00:32:27 - Closing and Podcast Information

What About Vietnam – S5- E4 Exploring the Case for Living and Working in Vietnam 00:01Kerry Newsome Xin chào and welcome to What About Vietnam? Becoming an expert and traveling and working abroad, I think most of us would appreciate can be a life-changing decision with numerous benefits and I guess some challenges along the way. I'm delighted today to be talking with Kate Boardman and we're going to explore the case for becoming an expat in Vietnam. Now, Kate's very qualified to speak on this topic, having lived in Vietnam twice for extensive periods of time. A little bit about Kate before we kick off. Kate's almost 36 years old, from a small town in Western Massachusetts. She's lived abroad in 10 different countries, including the US, Germany, France, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Bahrain, Australia, Bali and Guatemala for a total of 14 years. It's staggering to note she's traveled to 53 countries. Kate, as I mentioned, lived in Vietnam twice for two and a half years. six months in 2012 and two years in 2014 to 2016. She's traveled back to visit several times, most recently in November. She says in no uncertain terms, Vietnam is one of her favorite countries of all time. She's worked as a teacher at international schools and as a gap year instructor. She's now back home growing a dynamic travel content creation business under the name Wildcat Wanders. Links to that and for you to contact her directly will be provided in the show notes. As one of the aspects of coming on this show, she really hopes to inspire others to live, study, work and travel overseas. Kate, it's a delight to have you on the show. And I look forward to chatting with you. Welcome to What About Vietnam 02:05Kate Boardman Thank you so much, Kerry, for having me. I'm delighted to be here. This is really exciting. 02:10Kerry Newsome You know, Kate, I'm sure my listeners are keen to know just what makes Vietnam a good choice for an extended working stay. So let's start there. 02:22Kate Boardman So I'm actually hesitant to recommend Vietnam so much for fear of over-tourism, because it's really such a special and unique place. And I just hope that what I've seen in other countries around the world where over-tourism has become a thing won't happen to Vietnam because it is so unique. But at the same time, it's one of the most amazing places that I've been. And I also feel that everyone should see it. So it's kind of this I don't know how much to recommend it but there are so many amazing things and I think For me, what stands out the most about it is that there's no place like it, especially in Southeast Asia. A lot of the countries, of course, they have their own personalities and aspects that make them amazing. But a lot of them can be a little bit same, same, but different as the saying in Southeast Asia goes. But Vietnam is truly its own place. And I think what makes it so special is the people. They're super friendly, but also ruthless, and they know what they want and how they want it. And they're very direct. Obviously, culturally, the country has been through a lot, a lot of wars, a lot of situations in the past. And so they kind of just do what they want and say what they want. And I really admire that about the people. I think what also makes it special is that life really takes place on the streets. And so you're just surrounded by this fascinating culture and vibrancy all the time. You look outside and there's the ladies with the conical hats and their matching pajamas and the honking of the motorbikes and all of the smells from the food and this organized chaos of the motorbikes and traffic. So it's just, you can't escape it. So when you're traveling there, you just really feel that you're somewhere different. The food is amazing, you know, both local food and Western food. I've got loads of friends who have lived there long term from other countries and they've opened up restaurants that have been really successful with really delicious Western food for an affordable price. And then obviously, you know, you can eat for two to three dollars a delicious bowl of pho or banh mi. And there's so many amazing types of food that change with each region of Vietnam that you visit, too. 04:46Kerry Newsome I think what fascinates me, which I think is in line with what you're saying, is that the street life is so dynamic in the sense that there is old and new residing alongside each other. As you say, conical hats next to you know, very well established buildings and fancy coffee shops and, you know, boutiques and things. But then, you know, a little bit further down the street, there's a little bit more of history that you can see still alive and well and happening. And the smells, for some people, Kate, I've got to say those smells are a little bit overwhelming. And, you know, you've got to tune your nose. But I think you and I have both visited a fair few places in Southeast Asia, and I don't find Vietnam as bad as some others. So, maybe my nose is just tuned to it. But yeah, for some, I think it's a little bit overwhelming. And then, of course, there's the motorbikes. which I think everybody gets a little bit overwhelmed by and a little bit taken back by how to cross the streets and all of that kind of stuff gets talked about and people become quite nervous about it. So, talk to us a little bit about that frenetic life. I mean, you've spent most of your time, as I understand, I think in Hanoi? 06:19Kate Boardman Yeah, so I lived there for two and a half years. I've travelled the country from top to bottom. Obviously, there's so many places that I haven't been to explore yet, but I've been to all the main ones, you know, like Hoi An and Sapa and Saigon. But yeah, I think what makes Hanoi special as well is that there's this love-hate relationship. And like you said, the honking, the motorbike traffic, those are all things that are super frustrating. And it's funny because each day living there, you might die like five times a day just trying to cross the street or get yourself to work. You know, and people will always joke about that, but it's like if you can't beat them, join them. And so, having a motorbike as frustrating as it can be in the traffic is also one of the funniest things about living there and cruising around on your motorbike. amazing sense of freedom. And it's really fun once you kind of get to know the rules or lack thereof of the traffic. And, you know, if you want to go through a stoplight, you just got to beep. If you want to drive down a one-way street going the opposite way, you just got to beep. If you want to drive up on a sidewalk, you can, you just have to beep. And so it's kind of fun once you feel confident enough to do all of those things. .07:37Kerry Newsome Yeah, and then you can pull up right at the front door of the shop or the restaurant or the cafe or wherever and you can park your bike and get off your bike and either someone will kind of park it for you for, you know, a few dong or you can just, you know, put the pedal down and take your helmet off and off you go, you know. I haven't seen you know, as yet, the parking stations that absolutely take over my cities here in Australia, and I'm sure you're the same in the US. So, you know, those little nuances, those little differences, I think also keep that spark alive, keep that kind of difference alive, which is quite energizing in itself. Kate, I want to take you down the route now of talking about getting a job and doing some research and just looking at the option to have an extended stay in Vietnam and working in Vietnam. Talk to us a little bit about how that was for you. 08:47Kate Boardman So the first time I moved there was 2012. So things have obviously changed a lot since then. And for whoever's looking to move there, it would obviously be important to research the ever-changing visa laws and regulations. I know that they're making new changes and that those do change a lot. Oftentimes, depending on who you're going to be working for, if it's an international school or an organization, they would most likely sponsor your visa. So if that's not going to happen, you need to be aware of if you're going to need to be doing visa runs or anything like that. I went there having a job lined up. So that was a little bit easier because I knew exactly where I was going. So the first time that I moved there, I was teaching at a bilingual school. A lot of the expats that are there are teachers, most are working in language centers teaching English as a foreign language, but there are also international schools where you can teach, you know, whatever subject you would teach back home, but over there, which is what I did as well. you've just got to be careful with finding a reputable organization or school. I think the problem with Southeast Asia in general and even in the world is that education has become such a business and there's a lot of schools that are popping up, you know, with the buzzwords that are popular in education at the moment, whether that's Montessori or Reggio Emilia or Waldorf, but it's really just a business or a marketing buzzword to attract parents, but the school doesn't actually embody that concept. So you've got to be really careful with who you're working for and how they're conducting business. So there's a lot of Facebook groups for expats that are moving there, especially for teaching English to find out and to, you know, do a little bit of research, ask for feedback from other teachers who've worked there. So that's a great way to get insight. If you're working at international schools, there are websites like International School Review, where you can do a little bit of research ahead of time to make sure that the school is legit. So I definitely recommend doing your due diligence. and also making sure that you have the right qualifications to be able to work legally in the country and for those places. But now with the digital nomad kind of popularity happening, there's a lot of other ways that you could work and and live there. So if you are able to work, you know, from home on your laptop, then I think it's a great place to be able to go. And, you know, living in Hoi An by the beach is an amazing option, you know. So and I think that there's a lot of co-working spaces that are opening up to be able to provide the right kind of internet connection that you need. So I know that the whole expat scene is definitely going to be changing over the next few years of people being able to do more than just teaching or working for an embassy, which is kind of what the past was like. 11:44Kerry Newsome Yes, and I think it's a developing economy and I see a lot of trade and relationships between countries growing and certainly since things have changed with China. I think, you know, there's more opportunities in the industry sector and working with different chambers of commerce that I get the chance to do, I see a lot more of that. So, I totally agree with you. In fact, I've just done a podcast talking about becoming a digital nomad in Hoi An and talking to a guy who runs the hub in Hoi An, which As you say, if you're going to pick a nice place to set up your laptop and operate digitally for work, and that pays you a salary, well, all the better. So, as you say, I think since 2012, and because I also have a lot of contact with expats over there, the opportunities for jobs has increased, but doing your due diligence is absolutely imperative. There was a time there where there was a lot of people that were going there to retire, and they took up the majority of expat kind of locations and, you know, but COVID kind of unfortunately stripped a lot of those people out and it has become much stricter for people to get the right sponsorship and get things like, you know, a temporary residency card which they need to have for the certain benefits to live in the country. So, you know, as you say, there's a lot going on in that space and doing your research, talking to other expats and hearing from you, I know is going to really help. 13:45Kate Boardman Now they're being much more specific on the qualifications and certifications you need. You know, you should have a TEFL, potentially a college degree. So there's definitely, they're upping the calibre for teachers that they're allowing to teach their students. And I think that that's important because a lot goes into teaching. So you should kind of have a little bit of background if you're putting someone else's education in your hands. 14:10Kerry Newsome And it's a good point. And you're right. And I think there was a lot of opportunities for people that, yes, had good conversational English skills and could get away with it. But as you say, unless you've got a TEFL or you've got some kind of degree in, you know, dip ed or, you know, educational degree, you're just not going to make the grade now. So that's good. I'm glad you mentioned that. Kate, I want to take you down the path of just how it was for you and talking about just immersing yourself into Vietnamese day-to-day life as it is so very different from, you know, us Westerners and, you know, how we start and finish our days. So, can you talk to us a little bit about just, you know, was it easy for you to kind of immerse yourself in Vietnamese day-to-day life? 15:05Kate Boardman So I think the thing, the most important thing is, if you're an expat, you're always going to be a foreigner. And we kind of live in this in between place of never really ever fitting in again in our own home because we've seen the world and broadened our perspective in ways that people from home might not be able to really relate to. But then we're also never going to fully fit in in the culture where we're moving. We can do our best to learn the language and learn about the culture as much as we can and have as many local friends as we want. But I'm 5'11 and a tall, curvy white girl, so I'm clearly not going to blend in. to the streets of Hanoi. So you're always going to maybe get some inquisitive looks. A lot of the shopkeepers, I'd go into stores to look at clothes. 15:58Kerry Newsome I know what you're going to say. 16:01Kate Boardman Oh, yeah, the amount of times that they'll like, grab your arm and literally, like, shake it and be like, No, no, no, like, you too fat, you're too fat, like, and I'm like, No, but I wear a medium, like, I know that this is gonna fit me. And they would refuse to even let me try it on. And it would be like an H&M shirt that's immediate, you know, I buy this back home, I know it's gonna fit, no They won't let you. So you've got to have a bit of a thick skin to get by. And also, if you are single and you are past the age of 28, you are expired milk. So I would constantly get asked on a daily basis from my Vietnamese co-workers, are you married? Do you have a boyfriend? Why not? Like, what's wrong with you? And now like 10 years later, I'm still single. So they're really going to wonder what's wrong with me. But no, I think as far as immersing yourself, it's a really easy place to kind of get adjusted. You know, you can move there on a Monday and by the weekend have friends, a place to live, a motorbike. You know, I think the expat scene is extremely welcoming and the Vietnamese as well. So it takes Moving anywhere takes time to adjust. There's always that initial culture shock that you have to go through, figuring out where to buy things. And luckily, that has changed drastically in the 10 years. So in 2012, you know, finding contact solution, For example, you couldn't just go to the grocery store, which is where I would buy contact solution from back home, or the pharmacy. You had to go to Glasses Street in the old quarter to find the street that sells glasses, and then there was maybe one contact shop, and those contact shops sold the contact lens solution. It was a mission to find something that you would think would just be an easy enough thing to find. But now, there's so much convenience there. you know, loads of Facebook groups like Hanoi Massive, where, you know, if you need to know where to find something, there's answers, there's grab delivery. So basically, anything that you want, you can have delivered, you know, at the snap of a finger. So that has definitely changed and made things a lot more convenient and easy to navigate. And like I said, with all the Facebook groups, there's groups such as Hanoi Beautiful. So if you're moving there and wondering, you know, where can I go get a haircut? Where can I get my nails done? Where can I, you know, what's a reputable doctor, there's all of that information there, which wasn't necessarily there before. So I think that definitely makes a huge difference. Language is definitely challenging. Obviously, it's tonal. So I think even if you're able to learn a lot, you know, you could still be saying the wrong thing. You know, you could be saying penis or pomelo. They mean the same or it's the same word, but if you say it wrong, you could be ordering the wrong thing at the market. 18:57Kerry Newsome Yeah, but I know exactly what you're saying. And I know I got warned. My boss at the time, her name was spelt T-H-U-Y, which is pronounced “twee”. But if you say “tui” it actually means poop. So, you want to be really careful how you say that then. I'm not surprised that you're mentioning a lot about Facebook groups. For a time there, I really thought that Vietnam was run by Facebook. Like everything, every place, seems to have a Facebook page. And the beautiful part about that is, even though it may be in Vietnamese, you can still message it in English and then you get someone at the other end that messages you back in English and responds. I can, you know, book a hair appointment, Talk to my tailor. I can do a hundred things through Facebook. It's just amazing, isn't it? 20:08Kate Boardman Right. And I think as far as countries in South East Asia go, the level of English in Vietnam is definitely up there. especially now compared to a few years ago, there's such a push for young Vietnamese students to go to bilingual or international schools, to go to all these language centers. There's a huge push in the country for them to study abroad as well, which has its flaws, you know, even though as an international teacher, have obviously benefited from working at these schools. I hope that it doesn't take over their own culture by becoming so Western and so capitalistic that they're trying to, you know, be like the US or other countries in the West where they lose their own identity. 20:57Kerry Newsome Mm, it's a good point. And I'm right with you, I don't really want it to change, yet I know in my heart of hearts it's going to, it's all ready. I mean, I've been going back and forth for 14 years, and even in that time, each time I go back, and I go back twice or three times a year, and even in between visits, things have happened, things have changed. So, it's a bit scary and it's growing fast, really, really fast. Let's get on to accommodation because as you say, that's gone through some drastic changes too. So, did you find anything more about that when you visited in November in contrast to what it was for you back in 2016? Yeah. 21:42Kate Boardman So, when I first lived there, I was paying... One of the cool things was that a lot of people live in house shares. So you get these big, beautiful villas, especially where I was living in the Tejo, Westlake area, which is kind of the more expat neighborhood of Hanoi. There's a lot more now that are popular, but that was definitely the most popular when I was there. And it still is. And so a lot of us would live in a shared house with about five people in a house. I met some of my best friends in the world that way. And it was really great to have that kind of family away from home. If you are moving to another country, it's a great way to live with other people, have a group of friends that we would have holiday dinners together and Monday nights. So it was really special. But we would pay about 250 US dollars for a room often with an en suite and a balcony. And like I said, that would have been in a big five bedroom house. I then lived in a Lakeview apartment with a beautiful balcony overlooking Tay Ho and the two bedroom would have been about 600 US dollars. A month. I think that now, a month. And I think that now that would easily be well over 1000. So I've just spoken to my one of my best friends just moved to Saigon. So she's going to be teaching at an international school. They've given her about 700 US dollars to find a two bedroom apartment. But she said that when she was looking the other day for the amenities that she would want, which would be a pool and a gym, she's looking about at about $1,000. So A lot. Those are definitely Western prices, but obviously you're not going to get a pool and a gym in your building for $1,000 in New York City. So it's comparable to what you're getting, but it's still really expensive to think that you could be paying that much in Vietnam compared to what we paid years ago. 23:42Kerry Newsome Yeah, absolutely. And I think the interesting thing that I've learned from expats too is, you know, in that shared house and in the accommodations that you have, your style of living is so different to Western, you know, like, you know, you don't have ovens and you're not there cooking and baking like you would be at home. You're mostly eating out because it's just so affordable and, you know, you've got maybe somebody to come in and do the cleaning and, as you say, access to the pool, to the gym. So, it's still quite comparable, isn't it? Western life, but how does it compare to the salary? Like, do you go there to save money, or do you go there as an expat to just be an expat and live in another country to experience another country, or do you actually come home with savings, or I don't know. I'm not quite sure what I want out of this answer, but yeah. 24:42Kate Boardman No, so this is a big thing to consider when you're looking to move abroad. So, especially having been a teacher in so many different countries, you kind of get to know the countries that pay really well, or that you're mostly living in for an experience. And it's often supply and demand. You think of the countries where people really often want to live, the pay is obviously going to be a little bit less because they know that you're going to want to move there, even if the salary is low, whereas countries that might not be as enticing are often going to pay you more because they want to attract people to get there, which is why at a time the Middle East was paying a ton of money. Now, obviously, people want to go and live there. so the salaries have kind of dropped to reflect that. But Vietnam, when I first, so my first job there, I was earning about $2,000 a month. And after paying for rent, a motorbike every month, or no, I think I bought my motorbike, but paying for a motorbike, eating out, essentially every single day, partying and going out every weekend, traveling on every holiday, I would easily save half of my salary without even thinking about it. So I think the most important thing to think about is your earning to savings ratio. It's not necessarily how much money you're making, but the quality of life you can live with that and the amount of money that you can save. So I definitely was able to save half of my salary. So Even though $2,000 a month is not a lot by Western standards, I would never have been able to save $12,000 in the US working a job that paid more just because of the cost of living. That would just not be possible. Now, obviously, with the cost of living having gone up in Vietnam, I think that that would be much more challenging. But I think the jobs also reflect that in their pay. So you can, and again, it's up to how you live, you know, if you are eating at a Western restaurant, every single day, you're going to be paying about seven to $10 for a meal. But if you're eating a bowl of pho, you're going to be paying about two to three So it depends on what you spend your money on. You can obviously get a cafe soda from a local cafe for a dollar, or you could go and have a latte at Starbucks for six. So it's how you choose to live your life. And I think the great thing about Vietnam is that you have that balance and you have those options to be able to live as cheaply and inexpensively as you want or to be as lavish as you want as well. 27:25Kerry Newsome Yeah, I mean, you're totally right. It's definitely a lifestyle choice and how you live because, you know, I know even myself, if I stay, you know, a couple of months, if I have an extended stay, I find myself totally flipping on the way I live over there to how I live back home. How I eat, what I do, where I go, and where my money doesn't go. So, it's not going on parking fees or tolls or, you know, the eating out is nowhere near as expensive as it is over there. I adore Vietnamese food. So, you know, I can get fed very well. I can get a grab bike for you know, so cheap to get where I want to go. So, you know, you're right. You've got to really weigh up those pros and cons and what the experience of travel and immersing yourself in that kind of culture is going to do for you. 28:25Kate Boardman Also, just one thing to add to that, like the price of being beautiful. I joke around with my friends all the time. I'm like, oh, you're so lucky. You can be, you can afford to be so much more beautiful there because, you know, I always just felt so much I don't know, you're able to afford, you know, getting your nails done, getting your hair done, getting massages, you know, on a weekly basis, whereas back in the States, I can't do that on a regular basis. So I joke with my friends, you know, because they've all got their lashes done and their eyebrows and everything is done all the time, you know, whereas I'm lucky if I go to get my nails done, you know, every couple of months. 29:06Kerry Newsome I'm totally with you. I reckon I lose 10 years in a trip to Vietnam. I always come back feeling absolutely refreshed. And I feel like a foreigner back in my own country. It's terrible. 29:19Kate Boardman Oh, yeah. Whenever I go, I get all the things done. I'm making appointments at all the places to do all the things. 29:26Kerry Newsome And I'd be having a massage after dinner two or three times a week. Right. You'd be rude not to. It's vagrant. I know. It's totally vagrant. I want to move on. I want to get into what did you struggle with the most? What were some of the biggest challenges you found? 29:48Kate Boardman Well, obviously this is going back a long time, so these wouldn't necessarily be struggles now, but the struggle of trying to figure out where to get things, which is obviously not an issue anymore. Hanoi specifically, when I first moved there, it was January and I do not recommend doing that. No. God no. No. And I had come from, so my initial plan when I moved to Asia was to stay in Thailand. That was the whole plan. I had a wardrobe packed for Thailand and then I randomly ended up getting a job that paid twice as much in Hanoi. So I moved there without any plan of actually moving there. and did not have the clothes, did not have the shoes, could not find the shoes that fit me. I wear a size US 10. So those didn't exist then. But um, it was freezing. And I'm from Massachusetts, which is in the northeast of the US, which we get a lot of snow here. And I've never been so cold in my life. Because The humidity is so high, it's about 75% to 80% humidity. And so that means that it is a wet cold that soaks you through to the bone. And you're not driving in your heated car to work, you're driving on your motorbike. So once you're cold, you are cold. And oftentimes the houses are not insulated. So it's actually colder inside of your home than outside on the streets. So I definitely battled with this. And then you go into Mouldy March. So all your clothes start to grow mould on them. That's really fun. Anything black. So all my black leather jackets and my black leather shoes were covered in mould. There's ways around this. You can get things like cedar chips for your closet or try to take care of your things if you know that Mouldy March is coming. But the weather was definitely challenging. So I actually hated Hanoi when I first lived there. I hated it so much because I was like, why did I leave? Why am I here? I was going through a really bad breakup at the time. And I'm just like, what have I done? I've left my relationship. And now I'm in this freezing cold place that didn't see the sun because it's cloudy. And it rained a lot at that time and was freezing. So I was like, OK, great. I've, you know, left sunny Thailand and now I'm here. And that really took a toll on me. But then when the weather is nice, you understand the magic and you realize why people love the place so much, which makes going through the winters way more bearable because you know, you've already fallen in love with the place. So when I moved back, it was a totally different experience because you know, the fall is absolutely gorgeous. The weather is perfect. The summer, you know, you can chill out in a pool and spend a lot of time outside. So there's, there's a lot of different times of year, but it's worth it. It's worth the cold rainy season. 32:55Kerry Newsome And, you know, people, they don't want to listen to me when I tell them about when to go and when not to go places. You know, and people say, oh, you know, we want to, we definitely want to see, we want to go to Halong Bay at the beginning of January. And I go, no, that would not be a good idea. You won't be able to go on deck. You'll be freezing. There's just not a puffer jacket built to sustain that cold in Hanoi and places like that. But everybody just has this perception that Vietnam is just this you know, hot country. It's just hot all year round. And it's just not, is it? And... Right. No, not in the North. No. And the weather in the North is very different to the weather in the South. So, when I'm crossing seasons, I either spend more time in the North, depending on what time of year, or more time in the south or the central area, just to meet the best weather, conditional to the experiences that I want to have. Because you can't do much when, you know, there's no use going to Hoi An in October, for instance, and you want to go snorkeling on the Cham Islands. because the boats don't run, the water's too cloudy, the weather's too crap. So, you know, it's really an important thing. And when I trip plan for people, I hate to have to down their aspirations, but I do want to keep it real for them because I don't want them to get there and go, oh, wow, this is terrible, you know. Kate, I want to just step into things like safety. You know, you're a gorgeous looking girl, you're there traveling on your own, working on your own, looking after yourself, sounding like very extremely well, but do you feel safe? Do you feel like you've got good either access to good people and systems and medical care and, you know, things like that to in regard to walking around at night, you know, all of that kind of stuff. Because there's some cities in the world, I would say, I wouldn't feel safe doing those kinds of things. I just wondered how it was for you. 35:19Kate Boardman No, absolutely. And that's definitely something to consider when you're moving abroad. So first of all, things can happen anywhere. And I have to tell this to my parents all the time. My mom is always worrying about me, like, oh, my God, be careful. You know, and it's like, yeah, everywhere you go, something can happen. You just have to have your wits about you and understand the culture of where you're going, first of all. So I, Vietnam is a very safe country and Southeast Asia in general is extremely safe for solo female travelers. It's one of the best places that you can travel as a woman alone, I would say. you've got such a prevalence of like the Buddhist culture and it's a very peaceful culture and peaceful people. I've been in situations, I remember I dropped like $50 out of my pocket in Seoul in Korea and somebody came running up to pick it up and hand it to me. Whereas in other countries in the world, that wouldn't happen. And the same thing would happen in Vietnam. If you left your wallet in a place, you know, oftentimes the shopkeeper would run after you to get you. That's not to say that things don't happen. You know, I've had situations and I actually got robbed in Saigon. I was coming home late at night. This would have been years ago when I was backpacking and was coming home late at night. I was walking with a couple of guys but somebody came up on a motorbike behind us and I had a crossbody bag on and they just snatched it and took off my camera, my money, everything. So you definitely have to be careful and I've heard certain areas of Saigon that you want to be careful not to wear a lot of gold flashy jewellery because they've got people that will ride around on the motorbikes and they'll pull them off of you, but you just have to know where you're going. And I wouldn't say that that's the overall energy of the city. You might find that in more of the backpacker places, but once you live there, it's kind of, you know what areas to avoid. So, for example, I had a friend that when she lived in Saigon, if she was going out to the district one backpacker area, she might just not wear her flashy gold or valuable jewellery, you know, or make sure that she has a bag that's secure on her. There are also situations where house robberies could happen. This did happen to several of my friends where people would actually climb up from the outside and could break into your house. But again, this is not the norm. These, of course, happen. And I think it's important for people to know that they are possibilities. But it's definitely not the rule. There are more exceptions to the rule. And overall, I always felt very safe in Vietnam. There are great medical facilities. Obviously, you want to do your research and know where to go. But I've had friends that have, you know, delivered babies. I've had friends that have gotten surgeries. You know, there are good medical facilities there if you need. And again, just do your research. So if you're moving to a place, get a feel for what are the best hospitals to go to if something should happen so that you know and are ready for should anything happen. With motorbike safety, it's extremely important to know how to drive a motorbike, I would suggest that you really feel confident knowing how to ride a motorbike. I learned in Thailand, which prepared me for Vietnam. I think if you've never driven a motorbike before, Vietnam might be a little bit of an intense place to try. So obviously finding a quiet area where you can practice is important because the traffic is crazy and it takes some getting used to, but it's an organized chaos and it does flow. Once you get the hang of it, you'll understand it. But it's also important to make sure that your insurance is going to cover you if you're in a motorbike accident. So this is really important. I think a lot of insurance companies, travel insurance companies will only cover you if you have a license. So you would need to figure out if you're going to stay there a long time how to get a Vietnam motorbike license. And if you don't have alicense that you are driving a motorbike, that's no more than a 50 CC. So I actually own a Honda Cub. Those are my favorite motorbikes. They're adorable. They're vintage. They're super cute. Mine was named Penny Lane, and she was adorable, turquoise, and I loved her. But she was a 50 CC. And so that meant that if anything happened, it would have been covered under my insurance. And, um, I use a safety wing, so I've actually sent you a link. So if you want to share that, um, so safety wing is great for digital nomads for insurance, but yeah, those are definitely some things to be aware of, but no, overall the Vietnamese are extremely. Friendly. I feel safe there and, and the men are not creepy. I think this is important to, of course, you know, you might get some looks, but I've definitely been to other parts of the world where. you feel uncomfortable because you're getting stared at, or even in Egypt, the guys would chase you down the streets. In Guatemala, whenever they drive by, they're whistling or yelling something out the window. But Vietnam, you don't really feel that from the men there, which is really refreshing. So I think for women, that's important, and you don't feel that you're being stalked or perved on by these men. 41:09Kerry Newsome Yeah, and that's been my experience as well. I think, you know, it's a lot of common sense, I think, a lot of times, don't you think? That, you know, if you want to be flashy, if you want to kind of, you know, act like you haven't got your wits about you, you're in the wrong place at the wrong time kind of thing, you're either too drunk to know what you're doing, well, you know, anything can happen. And as you say, that could happen in any country. I think that it's important to note that. And, you know, like I travel like you on my own most of the time. I'm blonde. I'm short. So, the short aspect helps me a lot. because I don't stand out, but my blonde hair does stick out like the proverbial. But, you know, I'm a bit older, so I often get a lot of respect from the Vietnamese, and they are very cordial and very sweet to me. So, you know, I always feel quite special the way they treat me when I'm over there. I mean, just common courtesies that, you know, you don't get in Western society as much. 42:24Kate Boardman No, they're extremely friendly and welcoming and helpful as well. You know, if I've been in situations where my motorbike is broken down on the side of the street and someone, you know, because I've run out of petrol or something and someone stops to help me and gone and gotten me some petrol or whatever. So They'll go out of their way to help you if they can. 42:44Kerry Newsome Absolutely. Kate, just to finish up, do you have any kind of last minute tips for people, things that they should definitely do? 42:56Kate Boardman I mean, so many, but I think try all the food, really explore the cafe culture, it's unlike anywhere else in the world, the local coffee, the beautiful cafes that they have, they're so fun to explore. For me, I love going down all the little hidden alleyways, that's where all the hidden gems are. So I think back home, what we would see as a sketchy looking alleyway, it's kind of dirty, or, you know, it's not maybe the most hygienic place to eat, those are the best spots. So don't let, don't judge a book by its cover, that's where the magic is. And my favorite places are the places that are down what might look like a sketchy alleyway, but it's a culinary heaven and you just got to go and get lost and try it. My favorite trips have been, one of my favorite trips of all time was a motorbike trip that I did up to Ha Giang, the Ha Giang Loop, which is on the border of China. So my girlfriend and I rode motorbikes for about six days, and it was the most stunning countryside I've ever seen. So definitely do a motorbike trip if you can. I know that that trip has become a lot more popular over the years. When I went, it was definitely off the beaten track. It's incredible. Hoi An is such a magical place and will forever be one of my favorite places. But yeah, I think just try to experience as much as you can. And I think that's what makes Vietnam so amazing is that you've got literally everything. You've got incredible beaches, deserts, jungle. thriving, bustling cities, cute ancient towns. There's tons of history and architecture and charm. And so there's really something for everyone to see there. 44:50Kerry Newsome Kate, thank you very much for being on the program. It's been really great to talk to you. 45.20 Kate Boardman Thank you so much for having me.

9314952c-f274-446b-bdc3-e7e3cbc3d886Colourful landscapes of the village of Mu Cang Chai Mu Cang Chai - a landscape of beauty and ingenuity Episode 2 S3-02 Mu Cang Chai 00:00 / 28:54 Deep in the valleys forged by the waters of Asia’s Red River, a series of colorful mountain villages are encircled by fields of towering rice terraces. The fields are agricultural feats of precision — rugged mountains blanketed with emerald stairways that, seemingly, ascend to the heavens above. But this is not Disneyland. This isn’t a destination designed to attract visitors, international attention or the Instagram set. But it did attract one Instagrammer, Jesse Pearlman and he is my guest today. You will love hearing about this region as Jesse tells his tales and his experiences getting there the first time, and later, trips back and forth. You will hear in his voice that his love of the region belongs to the people and comes from a very soulful place in his heart. Download Transcript PDF Read transcript

420eb988-0e37-4d4d-b111-0c95c2f050f7Fast becoming a major draw card for adventure seekers. What About Vietnam - S3-22 Phong Nha Cave tours – in depth Kerry Newsome: 00:23 Xin Chào and welcome to “What About Vietnam !” Today, we're going to explore Phong Nha caves. And I'm delighted to have my guest, Howard Limbert on the program, as he is going to take us through the Phong Nha caves in such a way that we can really get to understand what's truly achievable to experience in the caves. And just what kind of skill levels we need to do that, if in fact, we need any. 01:07 A little bit about Howard, & how he's been exploring caves, believe it or not, all over the world, and for 32 years. He is now the technical advisor for the Oxalis company. And in that role, he is all about putting together adventure tours for the company, and about making sure the safety level is there. And at the absolute best to ensure great experiences for all travelers. He negated to tell me until a little bit into the program, that in fact, he was a leader of the British team that explored the caves that actually discovered Son Doong back in 2009. 01:53 So needless to say, he's got a lot of information, and a lot to teach us about these caves. So, when you see all those fabulous photos of the cave systems, which definitely are out there on all your Instagram and your Facebook pages, showing off the system in Vietnam, you're going to learn in this program, just what sort of time you need to set aside, as in two days to do it, three days to do it, or four days, and then what you'll get to see in those time spans. So, I'm not going to waste any more time. I want to jump straight in. And let's welcome Howard Limbert to talk to us about Phong Nha . Howard Limbert: 02:48 Phong Nha is the name of the village where everything is situated. It's named after the cave, Phong Nha cave. And that was all that was known for many, many years, because they used that particular cave, in the war. Many of the boats, further from the military used to live in the cave. And they were also a hospital in the cave. So that was what was known for many years about Phong Nha , the village, there was this wonderful cave. And we came along in 1990 and explored Phong Nha cave, 10 kilometers long, one of the most amazing river caves in the world. But we realized this was just the lower parts of the cave system where the river comes out. 03:29 So, over the last 30 years, we've explored many, many caves, deep in the jungle upstream, like Phong Nha cave, and what people will know about, is Son Doong cave, the one that we were lucky enough to discover and explore in 2009, the world's largest cave. But this is just one of many cases that are in that area. It's tremendous, beautiful area. And we now employ many, many people, local people in the area as porters, as guides, even cleaning ladies, everybody. We employ nearly 550 people now. So, it's a major concern, and many people are starting to visit Phong Nha . 04:13 It is the fastest growing tourist destination in Vietnam. And it's the third most popular, certainly for foreigners coming into Vietnam, because foreigners are into sustainable tourism. They're into beautiful nature and peaceful and quiet. It's not like certain parts of Vietnam. It's very busy and you'll see hundreds of people going trekking or visiting the site. Phong Nha , we try to make it purely sustainable, and that, all the adventure tours that we certainly run, is very limited number of people. So, we usually have group sizes maximum of 10. So, when you go into the caves, when you go into the jungle with your team, your group, you will only see those people in general. So that's a great feeling for people to feel like they're going somewhere special, rather than hordes of tourists. And we'd like this to continue for the future, it seems to be doing well, this type of tourism. Kerry Newsome: 05:14 Absolutely. And I can remember, I did a Vietnam National Administration Tourism Board Roadshow with their team from Vietnam, over here in Australia. And one of the first slides that they put up was, the Son Doong cave. So, this is like back in 2017. And whilst I've been traveling back and forth to Vietnam since 2007, this was the first I'd seen of the cave of-- and just that imagery and the whole audience, their jaws just absolutely dropped, it just how amazing it was. Maybe tell us a little bit, Howard, you know, the kind of numbers that you know, across each of the tours, and we're going to get into the individual tours. But tell me, how many people are visiting Phong Nha caves in a year these days? Howard Limbert: 06:12 Well, in Phong Nha , and the caves, we've got two- what we class as mass tourism caves, one being Phong Nha cave, and the other being Paradise cave. And they attract many, many people, but they're tourists’ caves. They are lit up. One of the caves, you go in, in a boat, and there they walk through and it's a beautiful, superb tourist cave. And then we'll take maybe half a million people a year into those caves. We're not in that type of tourism. Were into sustainable, limited adventure tourism. So, people want to see nature. It's not lit up. There are no artificial paths. It's purely adventure. So, it's real caving. And we're taking over 20,000 people a year into all these different adventure caves. In fact, more people go caving, proper caving like multi days in Phong Nha , than anywhere in the world. Not just adventure tours. This is anybody going caving, so more people go caving in Phong Nha , in Vietnam than anywhere else at the moment. 07:24 We really look at, that these caves are perfect conditions. It's not like caves in Australia, caves in the UK, where I'm from, where it's quite cold in the caves and quite small and it can be miserable on times, some super caves. But here, they are generally very big, and the water temperature is usually around 24 to 26 degrees. And the air temperature in the cave is always, winter/summer 23 degrees, which is wonderful, perfect temperatures. It's like America, it's like California all the time. So, it might be 40 degrees out in the jungle, sweaty and hot. But once you get in the care, it's like having air conditioning. It's just perfect. So, we're really lucky in this part of Vietnam, which was perfect for caving, but people don't really want to reflect too much. Because we tend, we do a high standard of adventure. We look after people and the quality of the equipment, and the food is really high class and people appreciate that. Kerry Newsome: 08:26 Yeah. Well, actually, I think you told me a bit of a funny story before we started to record where you said, "One of the things that we have to impress upon people is to not eat too much because the food's too good." Howard Limbert: 08:38 It is. I mean, it is too good. And people are many, many people come at Son Doong , rarely come here as well. But "I'm looking forward to losing some weight." And I said, well, "You know, you had your chance. You really have to be strict to lose weight on this tour." Because you'll have like a choice of 10 dishes on an evening. I mean, it's serious good food. And there's a lot of it. You don't have to eat it all. But when you've had a tough day, [crosstalk] people tend to eat. You get a little bit hungry. Kerry Newsome: 09:10 Yeah. Howard Limbert: 09:11 So, it's so- we always have two chefs on each tour. And they've been doing it a while now and they know what people want. And they know what I want. Like, when I came to Phong Nha , it was very, very basic, like incredibly basic. And I'm one of the few people, who don't like rice. So, I had to teach them to cook chips. That was the first thing I had to do. Kerry Newsome: 09:35 [crosstalk] Don't tell me you're going to bring out the chip [inaudible 09:39] or something like that. Howard Limbert: 09:40 Very British. I am very British. So, I said, "We got to do chips, customers like chips and I love them." Kerry Newsome: 09:47 There's plenty of carbs in that. So that's probably helpful. Howard Limbert: 09:51 The other thing we noticed is lots of certainly foreign customers, don't do noodles. Certainly, many Americans can't do noodles for breakfast. We obviously supply various noodles bowls, and things like that. But after a few days, if you're on a four-day tour, for instance, they get a little bit fed up. So, I had to teach our chefs how to do pancakes. And how to do French toast, or eggy bread, as they call it. Just for foreign customers. So, it's very nice for breakfast. Now we have a great variety, but we try to do a variety for vegan, vegetarian, meat eaters, as there is no problem in this-- 10:30 Oh, yeah, we get a lot more of the gluten free. The only difficulty that we do have with gluten free is like sweet teas and snack products in Vietnam, obtaining gluten free snack products, so that's the only thing we ask, if there are genuinely gluten free. We have a lot of people that like to be gluten free, but not 100% genuinely, Celiac and other problems. So, we asked them to bring their own snacks, although we do find that the meals are so plentiful that you don't really need to bring snacks, very rarely people do. Kerry Newsome: 10:30 Gluten-free... Kerry Newsome: 11:08 And we had to get them to just stay shy of that rice wine because, whoa! that [crosstalk]. Howard Limbert: 11:17 We do bring a little bit of rice wine, but we limit it as, like just one on an evening, just to show people what it is because-- Kerry Newsome: 11:25 That would be enough-- Howard Limbert: 11:25 It's really dangerous. Kerry Newsome: 11:27 It is dangerous stuff. Howard Limbert: 11:29 My tip for rice wine is, if you get to like it, you've gone too far. You're in a real mess, if you like it. Kerry Newsome: 11:37 Because it doesn't taste nice. Howard Limbert: 11:39 It tastes awful. Kerry Newsome: 11:40 --nothing. Now, Howard, I'm going to get you if I may, we're going to kind of unpack some tours for people. Because something that I need to share with you is some of the queries and the questions that I've got over time is: · How much time should we allow? · If we've got an extra two days, what would we get to see in two days – · Or if we've got three days? S So, you and I kind of agreed that we would unpack a stay. And you could give them some guidance around periods of stay. So, time that they've got a lot. And one thing I loved about your website, and for everyone listening, I am going to put the links to the Oxalis website, because I've never seen a website that's got every Frequently Asked Question, that you could possibly come up with. That website has got it. 12:37 So, if you, after this episode, want to know even more, and we didn't cover it here, we'll definitely go there, the answer will be there. But having Howard with me, I want to talk about: If you do have extra days, or you can pack in some time, I definitely recommend you coming along to Phong Nha , and doing a cave discovery tour. Now, I want to preface this by saying, that, one of the things I learned from the website, is about managing expectations in the sense that, if you're flying in from the UK, it's probably not a good idea, if your land in the morning. And then you're getting yourself to Đồng Hới and then you're jumping straight into a tour, that's probably not a good idea, you would probably settle yourself in Phong Nha , have a good night's rest and then begin the tour the next day. 13:37 So, 99% of people have common sense and would apply that, but some think, "Oh, that'll be fine", and whatever. We would really recommend that you allow that day before and that day at the end. So, when you finish the tour, stay a night and as my friend Ben Mitchell says, come to one of the places in Phong Nha , have a Gin and Tonic, come and say hello to some locals and chill out and then take your journey home. So, starting with the one-day. Would you put that in, what you call the tourist cave? So, that's really what you're going to see in one-day or is there other options Howard? 14:22 We're going to come back to Howard, just as he explains that the Oxalis tours are not really what they classify as 'Tourist Tours'. If I may just explain that difference. There are very short, rounded tours of the Phong Nha caves, but they are very much for very short trips, maybe only half a day or a few hours at a time. These are not the tours that we're going to be talking about on this show. I just thought I'd jump in there to give some explanation and how it's going to go into a little bit more detail with that, just coming up right now. Howard Limbert: 15:16 No, these are not tourists’ caves, all tours, relatively remote areas in beautiful scenery in the jungle, you will not see 1000s of people. We run three types of one-day tours. The first one a simple one, is our family tours. We run family with children and parents into very easy caves, short walking, no swimming in the cave. But we love swimming in rivers and fun activities in the rivers. We keep young children from our main adventure tours. We don't want children involved in those, but we have some caves that we specially set up for children, shock proof caves, which they'll find very, very exciting and the parents will like, but it's not a great danger. And that can be well looked after. And so, we have that family tour. So, family tours are basically into Tu Lan area. And we look after the main specific caves, and they are really, really popular family groups. Kerry Newsome: 16:22 Okay. Howard Limbert: 16:22 Well, people over 16 years of age, we have two types of tour: We have a relatively easy one-day tour, which includes: · Swimming in a cave. · Jungle trekking in a dry cave. Lovely, lovely tour. It's like an introduction to our tours. We also have a more difficult one-day tour, which involves a lot more difficult trekking and you've got to be relatively fit to do this. You've got to have done some trekking and walking before and it's a full long tour. It is two caves, called Hang Tien , very spectacular, massive cave. And there are three one-day tours: 1. Family. Tú Làn 2. One-Day. 3. Hang Tien One-Day. There are currently [inaudible 17:06]. And that's a good introduction to Phong Nha . So, if you've got really limited time, do these tours, you'll enjoy them, people love them. However, I would recommend going longer, you get much, much more value. And not only that, but you also see the place and interact with the local people and get more out of it. Kerry Newsome: 17:06 Absolutely. Okay, so let's talk about a two-day tour. So, this is an overnight in a cave, yes? Howard Limbert: 17:36 So two-day tours, that we run, are all really special and very different. The first one is called Hang En , which has got a massive wow factor. This in fact is the first day of the Son Doong tour. So, this is where the Son Doong tour goes on the first day, because the only way to Son Doong cave is to actually go through Hang En cave. So massive cave, huge cave, in parts of its 200 meters wide, 140 meters tall, then you camp inside the cave. And it's got a spectacular large pool, where you come and there's daylight coming in. Like I say it's the third largest cave in the world. And this involves around 22 kilometers of trekking, in and out, relatively easy, the only class, that has a moderate sort of difficulty. The trekking is easy, incredibly beautiful. The swimming at the campsite inside the cave. And we have this open from December until the early September. So, during the rainy season of mid-September onwards to October and early November, we cannot go in this cave, because there's a very large river. Hence why Son Doong is the largest care in the world. 17:36 Yeah. These are overnight, not in a cave, somewhere in caves, somewhere camping next to caves, next to waterfalls, and jungle. And we have four different two-day tours. They're all very, very popular. In fact, these were probably our most popular tours, pre-COVID. We now find post-COVID people wanting to do longer tours, everybody wants to do three and four-day tours. And a lot of people now we're doing two-day tours and doing two, two-day tours together, do a two-day tour, come back to a lovely hotel, rest and then do another two-day tour, which is [crosstalk] for variety. And it's really, really popular. Kerry Newsome: 19:12 Absolutely correct. Howard Limbert: 19:30 So that's one of our most popular today's tours. Because when I say, a wow factor, I mean a wow factor. Photography is outrageous in this cave. Very easy. We did Peter Pan film there. Neverland is part of that cave. What I'd like to say is, this goes out to the world, so, the location is brilliant, but the film is terrible. The film didn't do justice, [laughter] for the location is fantastic. [laughter]. Kerry Newsome: 20:21 Mom's the word. Howard Limbert: 20:23 That's what we'd say about Hang En , very, very popular cave. Where the walking is relatively easy. There's nothing too technically difficult about that cave. And the walking, there is jungle and a lot of river crossings, you will get wet. 30 river crossings to get to-- Kerry Newsome: 20:41 As long as I get wet. And I don't get leeches on. I'm okay, but-- Howard Limbert: 20:45 No, there's not only not many leeches on that particular tour, but you can also never guarantee it sometimes on the way out. If you've had some rain. The leeches at least- no worries really, leeches are no problem. Tu Lan two-day. This was our first multi-day trip we ever invented. This involves five caves. Some are dry, some are very wet, because you have to swim through some of the curves. You swim from one entrance, go through and come out in the jungle, brilliant campsite, next to a lake and waterfalls. It's a tremendous fun tour, is Tu Lan two-day, very, very popular. And again, this is open from mid-November till mid-September. And it's only a moderate choice, not too difficult. And it's a great introduction to-- and it's a fun tour, a really fun tour, people like it. 21:44 My personal favorite is the next one is called Hang Va , that's V, A. It's a two day-tour again. And it really is a real cave, as caves, you do two caves. And one is huge, massive, fantastic cave, beautiful. But the other cave is-- it's you actually touch the sides in places. A lot of Vietnamese caves are so big, you can't even see the sides and the roof. But this cave, you're actually physically-- it's not tight or claustrophobic, but you'll actually touch the walls, and there's quite a lot of water in places, it is quite exciting. And people love it. And there's also some technical sections in this, where you wear [inaudible 22:30] and He clipped to ropes. So, it's very, very good for that. 22:35 I really, really would advise doing this, because it's got some of the most amazing formations, in caves in the world. We've got stalagmites that grow underwater, that are formed underwater, and there's nowhere else like it in the world to this particular cave. These are unique formations to this cave. And there's 1000s of them. And it's a really, really beautiful cave. Not too difficult of a walk. It's technical, scrambling up and down routes, but it's not a long, great distance. So, it's not too physically challenging. And again, we have lots of safety assistance, looking after people on any of the technical sections. Safety is our priority. Oxalis , we look after people. And you've only got to read the reports, they are well looked after. Kerry Newsome: 23:27 In a group of 10. That's [crosstalk] yeah. And it was great to hear that you've got support staff, like seven to 10 people, and then you've got people carrying your luggage and food and things like that, which is awesome. But out of that 10 people, give me an age break up, like immediately think of young people, taking the biggest chunk. But you alluded to me the other day, that it's more than 30 to 55. Is that correct? Howard Limbert: 24:02 That's correct. It's generally that sort of age. We've had everybody from 16 up to 80, doing our tours, including [crosstalk]. Kerry Newsome: 24:09 Yeah, but at that end, what's the biggest chunk of people? Howard Limbert: 24:13 Probably 30 to 55, I would say, that's our big chunk of people. We are finding now in COVID time, we get a lot of ladies, more ladies than men. We're about 60 to 70% ladies, this is for Son Doong as well. Young ladies from Ho Chi Minh, many, many, many now are coming up to do these and they love it. They just love doing that. Vietnamese are becoming very active. And they're really into this sort of adventure and it's great to see, rather than sticking on a computer that they're getting out-- And now they're finding that they realized they've got something really special. They did not realize that Vietnam has these incredible places. It's only that-- it started to go out to the world, that they realized that these are unique places, that are nowhere else in the world. And it's in their own country. Kerry Newsome: 25:07 It's a funny realization too, that for me sometimes the Vietnamese and, I mean this with the deepest respect, when they see the European or the Westerner, I think that the place is great, then they decided to look at it with new eyes. Howard Limbert: 25:24 The thing that Vietnamese really like, is the quality. Because let's be perfectly honest, some of the tools that are available in Vietnam and some parts of Asia are not the highest standard for safety. And they're really concerned about that. And Vietnamese love Oxalis , because they realize it's a very high standard of safety. And that's why they keep coming back and telling their friends and they keep coming back. Because of that standard. Because it is- we like to keep that quality of tools, you might pay a few dollars more, but you get better quality food and better-quality service, better quality equipment, and they understand that, that's why they keep coming back. 26:09 So, all our equipment is imported. All our caving ropes, all our harnesses, every safety equipment is imported from France, from the UK, Switzerland, because I've used it and know it's well. I know it will work, rather than buying something that might have been imported as a copy from China. So, we don't do that, ours is imported from Europe, we pay a bit more, you generally get better quality. Yeah, we've got Hang Tien . two-day, this involves three really big caves, some of the biggest caves, that we do outside of Son Doong . There's no swimming in this particular tour in the cave. So, this appeals to some people, that are not the strongest swimmers, but we do have rivers and pools by the campsite. So, it's very nice in hot weather to go in there. 26:59 But actually, in the cave, some people a little bit worried about swimming in caves. Other people love the idea of swimming in caves. So, this is a term that's very popular in people, a little bit apprehensive. We also have a, if the river is high inside the cave, we have a flying fox, which is quite exciting, you put harnesses on and you are 15 meters above this roaring river. And you clip into two big stainless-steel wires, and you zip across the river, because you get across the river in high water. So, we look after the safety there. 27:31 That's very, very popular. It's quite a tough tour. It's not the easy tour, involves quite a difficult walk out. But people like this sort of thing. They like a challenge. They don't like just a stroll in the park, they like to feel, they are doing something [crosstalk] these fantastic places, rather than drive into them and just seeing them, snap! snap! We're looking for people who like nature, we're not after people who just want to take a single picture and walk out, we are after people who enjoy the whole experience, mixing with the different cultures, the porters and seeing people and enjoying after you've had a meal, having a bit of a chat and fun with a pause. And this is why it's so appealing to many, many people throughout the world. Kerry Newsome: 28:16 Three days, Howard. So, we've got a little bit more time. Howard Limbert: 28:19 Well, three-days are now becoming our most popular tour. People realize, you see so much more. The longer you've got, the better. And we do find now, people are coming to this part of Vietnam, central Vietnam, realize, it's the best part of Vietnam or nature. So, they book their tours. Most importantly, they book them beforehand. And then they-- the other activities are around this. So, our three and four-day tours are our most popular tours. So, you got to book in advance really for these tours, you can't just turn up and go on a tour. And people decide to do these tours. And then they'll book their -- Hội An, Hạ Long Bay, etc., around this. And so many people are so disappointed when they go to the other places, and say, "I wish, we would have stayed longer, we should have done another tour." Because it's what they think Vietnam is, t's peaceful, beautiful people very clean, very tidy. And when they get to the other places, they tend to be a lot more touristic and a lot more people around. 29:27 They are beautiful, there is no doubt about it, it's beautiful, but if you're into nature, and wanting to see genuine Vietnam, try and spend a bit of time and book in advance. So, our three-day tours, which again are very, very popular, can give you more time to see the places and a little bit more relaxed. And the first one is the Tu Lan three-day. So, this involves around seven caves, all completely different, some are dry, with fantastic formations, great for opportunities. Now, I must mention this now. In all our caves, our guides, every guide, you'll always have an English-speaking guide on every tour, fluent English-speaking guide. They're absolutely top class at doing photography. So many people now come along with a cell phone, we can get wonderful shots for everybody, because we bring special lighting into the caves. And we've done a lot of teaching of our guides, how to do photography, and our guides have become particularly good at getting excellent photographs in caves, not just selfies. We're talking wonderful shots of the cave. Kerry Newsome: 30:36 So, these seven caves, is this dry and wet-- Howard Limbert: 30:40 Dry and wet, are absolutely dry with fantastic stalagmites, stalactites, everything, and some are wet, where you'll be swimming through the caves, going all the way through in rivers. And it's great having this variety. This is what's popular about it. And the camp size in this particular thing is deep in the jungle, always next to a river, pool and waterfalls. So, on an evening after you've done your caving, dive in the rivers, swimming, have a bit of fun, we often have paddle boards and things around, so people can enjoy themselves. Because as you know, Vietnam is quite warm. Certainly, after March, you want to be in the water. It's really nice. You don't worry about getting cold in Vietnam. Kerry Newsome: 31:31 I have been called in Vietnam, but in the north. Howard Limbert: 31:34 Yeah, in the north, and certainly around January, it can get a bit chilly. It's definitely glamping. They're super, super tense, big four mattresses really thick. It's like on a bed, you have a pillow, a lovely-- I mean, it's all made up, ready, clean every time, new every time that you go in. Beautiful. Kerry Newsome: 31:54 I hope you're enjoying the show with Howard, as we explore the caves. We are now going to start to talk about three-days and four-days in a tour program with Oxalis . And in this area, we start to maybe expand a little bit into the jungle, experience the caves themselves, some of the experiences that you can expect to have around campsite, etc. How it's going to give us plenty of detail. And of course, the pièce de résistance, the Son Doong cave itself. Please stay tuned, lots more to come. 32:41 So, Howard, we're up to the second tour that you run for three-days. Howard Limbert: 32:48 The second tour is very different from the first tour. It involves quite a lot of jungle trekking. It's for people who want to see more jungle and perhaps less caves. We see four caves on this tour, and they are really big, impressive caves. But what's very popular is the jungle trekking and the campsite. Spectacular remote campsites, again next to rivers in gorgeous, gorgeous areas. Very, very popular for people, who especially don't want to do a lot of swimming in the caves. There's a small number of people who are a little bit worried about swimming in a cave. I don't know why, because they are well looked after, everybody who swims, but some people are a little bit wary about the field is not for them. So, this is a track, quite a difficult track. And so, you've got to be relatively fit to do this particular tour because the jungle trekking is a little bit demanding, climbing quite a lot of hills. And it's in a jungle. So, it's still a bit rocky and slippery in places. So, it's very, very popular. It's become incredibly popular this tour. Kerry Newsome: 33:58 I would think, it would be popular with the European market in particular. Howard Limbert: 34:02 Absolutely. It has been. But we're-- Yeah, we're finding a lot of people, who like to do this tour. The caves are spectacular, but that's only one section of it. They love the campsites, the remote, beautiful campsites. Kerry Newsome: 34:15 And what's the name of that tour? What's that one? Howard Limbert: 34:18 Hang Tien , three-day tour. Kerry Newsome: 34:23 Okay. Alright, so now we come up, we've got four-days. Now, I just want to preface, before you begin this again to people, when we're saying four-days, that's four days of the tour. You need to allow then your day before and your day after. So really, you're looking at six days and you need to consider that for all of the other ones that Howard's talking about as well. Because you'd be doing yourself a real disfavor by not and let's face it, it might not be a place that you might get back to again very soon. Although Howard is shooting me in the foot with that and saying, he's getting a lot of repeat visitors, but certainly too- 35:07 So, to do it in a way that you can really enjoy it, that you're not pushed for time, you don't feel like the buzzers on you. And you've got to rush back. So, Phong Nha is really opening up, and I think that you would do yourself and the people that you're traveling with, because everyone kind of deals with exhaustion, and chewing up some energy doing these things, it can be quite tiring, I'm thinking, most people be lights out by seven o'clock or eight o'clock at night, because they're pretty exhausted after the day. And you are taking in all that beautiful oxygen and fresh air and just all that beautiful natural wildlife, so that can actually wear you out. So definitely give yourself those days either side. All right now, Howard, take us on the four-day expedition. Howard Limbert: 36:06 Before I do that, I would like to say that all our tours, even the one-day to start quite early in the morning. So, to get to your point, it is useful to come the day before because most of our tours will start at 7:30, we'll leave 7:30, drive to the drop off by so it's quite an early start, then you might not get back until five, six o'clock in the evening. And like you said, you may be a little bit weary. So, you don't want to be getting on a bus, train, plane that time and now you will maybe-- so we do strongly advise coming before and afterwards. And all our four-day tours, which leads on to, we supply a hotel resort before and afterwards, it is part of the tour. Kerry Newsome: 36:53 So that's included in it. Howard Limbert: 36:54 It's all included, including pickup from Đồng Hới, the airport, the train station, wherever, pickup and drop-off, everything's included from, once you land, everything's included all the way to-- Kerry Newsome: 37:08 This is your five-star tour, isn't it? Howard Limbert: 37:10 Yeah, these are the top tours, the four-day tours, because the four days, you really must be there the day before, in you really don't want to be leaving that evening. Because you've had a full four days and all four-day tours- well, we have a party afterwards on all the four-day tours. And then, we would have like a- as Vietnamese call it, a gala dinner. So, we have a meal and the guides and some of the porters will come along and have a bit of a celebration. Kerry Newsome: 37:36 I'm sure, there's lots of experiences to share. Howard Limbert: 37:40 Things I can tell you about that. Yeah. Kerry Newsome: 37:42 What's that- "What goes on tours, stays on tours." That kind of thing. [crosstalk] absolutely. Howard Limbert: 37:49 With Son Doong tour, that's slightly different, and that you must have a briefing the night before the tour, we have to go to make sure people understand what they are going into. So, we have a full briefing which lasts about 45 minutes-an hours, then we have a meal with all the customers, before we go. It gives them an introduction what they are going into, because you never know, people that always read. I can't believe that people don't read the website, and the frequently asked questions. Because the paying a lot of money. I would ask questions. I would look at the website. People come along and have no idea. Kerry Newsome: 38:27 Why do you think I'm doing a podcast, Howard? Yeah. Howard Limbert: 38:30 [crosstalk] Just don't do it. Kerry Newsome: 38:31 Yeah, I'm hoping the podcast is an easy way for people to consume the information in a way that's entertaining without too dry and too boring, etc. But they get the important points across and then they can go and delve deeper. There's enough Google out there for everybody to go digging away and getting all the nitty gritty. And that's not what my podcast is about. It's about talking to real people with real experiences. And that's why I'm loving what you're putting down. So, talk us through those four days. What options? Howard Limbert: 39:08 Okay, we have three four-day tours. These are very popular. And I'll do the first one, which is Son Doong . This, I don't really have to say anything about it. Because so much is out there in the world now. But this is the ultimate tour that we arrange. Kerry Newsome: 39:30 It's essential. Howard Limbert: 39:31 Yeah, this is what pulls everybody to Phong Nha . And this is where our idea- We use Son Doong as a promotion. So, everybody reads about Son Doong , they see all the pictures, go, "I want to see that." But they can't afford it. So, they come along and do the other tours. It's like Nepal, Mount Everest, people come to Nepal, because it's got the biggest mountain, but they'll go see other things very, very similar things. We tried to set up the to promote tourism in the area, and it seems to have done very well. And it is the ultimate tour. It's in the world's largest cave. But this is not what people will leave and talk about and tick: "I have done the world's largest cave." Because it is absolutely unique. There's nowhere else like in the world. In the cave, you get situations that you will not see anywhere else. You'd see jungle and animals inside the cave. Big jungle inside the cave. Now that normally doesn't happen in caves, because these huge skylights come in. Incredibly spectacular. Kerry Newsome: 40:37 And what animals do you see? Howard Limbert: 40:40 We see everything from-- we have our own species in there. We found seven new species in the cave. That's only in Son Doong , nowhere else in the world. Such as certain white fish, white spiders, white centipedes, white crayfish, white- what else-- They are all white, basically white things, they are seven things. They are generally small, obviously, because they've got to evolve. There are not many creatures, very clean Son Doong , amazing. There's no bugs, any nasty things. It's because of the two big holes in the cave. And that involved-- that allows wind to come through. So, it's always pristine. So, you expect when you go in jungle and caves, it'll be horrible, nasty creatures. No, there's very, very few in all our caves, they are spectacular, like that. Everybody's really worried about, [sysco 41:32] when will it be musky? No, you don't get any! Perfect! Perfect! for camping is really, really good. Kerry Newsome: 41:39 That's exciting for me. Howard Limbert: 41:41 I mean, I've been in a lot of caves. Kerry Newsome: 41:44 [crosstalk] carry me away. Howard Limbert: 41:46 Yeah, the horror. No, it's really nice. I mean, it's really special. Son Doong is the number one. I do believe, it's the number one adventure tour in the world. I have taken six people, who have climbed Mount Everest, to the top of Mount Everest, through Son Doong . And each and every one of them said, "Son Doong is a better experience than climbing Mount Everest." Because of the situation you get. They're all blown away. I can say all this now, because I know every single person who has ever been in Son Doong , will say, it's the best thing they've ever done. There's nothing like it. It's so unique. So, it's a wonderful thing. This is what I do most of the time, I look after customers and look after the safety in Son Doong . And on every tour, there's one of the original explorers goes along with the team. So, myself, my wife, and some of the original team, that first explored Son Doong will go as a safety expert. So, we can tell stories about how it was explored. As well as looking after the people. Kerry Newsome: 42:55 I'm just so excited when I realized that you were part of that English group of explorers that actually discovered the cave, that is kind of far out real unreal as it is, because I've been reading about this stuff for years now and talking about it at promotional events and things like that. And to think that you were one of them, that was just a little bit of fine detail, Howard, that you could have just expanded on from the very beginning, when we started talking. That is just incredible. Who discovers caves these days? I mean, there's a lot of the world, that they think there isn't anything else to discover. And here you were in 2009. And as I heard, 'stumbled across' or 'stumbled into' and found this amazing cave. I mean, I've heard descriptions as in that you could fit Big Ben inside. Is it true? Howard Limbert: 43:55 Easily. Yeah, it's huge. One place, it's 440 meters tall. That's quite big. Kerry Newsome: 44:02 How many storeys building is that? Howard Limbert: 44:04 I have no idea. People are asking. I have no idea. But I just know it's huge. Kerry Newsome: 44:08 440 meters. I'll ask my husband. He'll know that. Howard Limbert: 44:12 That's the height from the river to the top. That's the height. Kerry Newsome: 44:15 And from beginning to end. How long is it? Howard Limbert: 44:21 The whole cave is just over nine kilometers long. And we take customers around seven kilometers of that cave. We don't do all the little side passages. We do the main huge, impressive part of the cave. There's a lot of variety. It's not just a- it's not a walk in the park in Son Doong . Because it is [crosstalk]. Kerry Newsome: 44:40 No, so what's that level of difficulty? Howard Limbert: 44:43 That's our highest level of difficulty. The highest we do, because these technical sections, there's a descent of 80 meters, that's quite steep. And then there's an ascent of 95 meters. So, using technical equipment, you are totally safe, you're on lifelines, I'll stay all the time. But you've got to put a bit of effort in yourself. It's nice if customer does a little bit effort, and we don't have to pull them all the way up these climbs, and people like it as a challenge, so we do help them. But we like them to [crosstalk]. Kerry Newsome: 45:17 I bet; they find a few muscles they didn't know they had. Howard Limbert: 45:20 Yeah, yeah, they ache a little bit afterwards in places, they use different muscles in caving. And it's not all big and walking. Some of it is smaller, where you have to go through a little climb, and you do a lot of up and down. It's not flat. There's a lot of up and down and rocky terrain. And it helps if you've got a little bit of sense of balance. If you got [crosstalk] it's good. Kerry Newsome: 45:44 Yes, yeah, actually, balance was one of the key things that Ben Mitchell mentioned to me, he says, his mother has done it. Howard Limbert: 45:52 She did. Yeah. Kerry Newsome: 45:53 Yeah, and he said that, she struggled a little bit, but he said, for the most part, her feedback to him was, "You've got to have good balance." Like if you get- Yeah, so, no middle ear problems or anything on the day? Howard Limbert: 46:09 No, no, it helps, not to have that. I mean, what we find is, small people do better than tall people, because they've got a lower center of gravity. So Vietnamese, well, they are remarkably good at balance. Kerry Newsome: 46:22 I'd fit in with Vietnamese really well, I'm only 5ft 1. Howard Limbert: 46:25 It's really easy. If you're small. I mean, I'm sorry, it does help. It does help being smaller. Kerry Newsome: 46:30 I can understand the revelation that you would get, like the adrenaline, and all of that, and experience like this would give you. So, I hope I'm transferring that through this podcast, because I think that would be- that would last for ages after you finished it that, you would just be so high from it. Howard Limbert: 46:53 Well, all the caves in Phong Nha are all big. There are no small caves. They're all large, large cave. So, there's no claustrophobic problems and things like that. It's in a different scale, the place has got the largest caves in the world. It's the number one caving area in the world. Kerry Newsome: 47:11 A few final facts from Howard, as we wrap up the show and finishing off with the Son Doong cave itself, a little bit of insight, also into just how tourism is working in the area in a very positive way, just the impact that Oxalis , as the main tour company to be running these tours. In fact, you cannot do Son Doong with any other company other than Oxalis . So, while you may think that this show is actually an Oxalis advertisement, it's not. But I feel very lucky, very privileged to have Howard on as part of the expedition team that did discover Son Doong . And give us the insights into the tours that Oxalis run. Let's get back to Howard, now as he concludes our episode on the Phong Nha caves. Howard Limbert: 48:12 Son Doong is the most important part of it, it's very limited the number of people, it's a rule, a requirement. We're only allowed maximum, a 1000 people in a year. And the group size is maximum of 10. That goes into, that's only 100 tours in a year. And you've got to book ahead, it's not something that you will be able to come along at the last minute. Kerry Newsome: 48:38 How far in advance? I heard at one point; you have to book a year in advance. Howard Limbert: 48:43 Sometimes up to a year in advance, like I know next year will be sold out up until at least June. So, we'll have a few places, a few maybe 100 places left June, July and August. But a lot of people then will book the following year. Because this is something that they'll sort the holiday around. It's so special, so unique. They will book in advance this particular tour, and then they'll sort the rest of the holiday around it. Most of our four-day tour people do that. And you've got to do it in Son Doong , because very limited people are allowed to go in, it's for conservation and protection of the caves. Kerry Newsome: 49:23 For sure. Okay, so in the four-day package, we've got one other tour, that you offer. Howard Limbert: 49:29 Well, we have at the moment, but I'm going to tell you about a new tour as well. But the other four-day tour that we run, maybe two or three times a week, is what we call the Tu Lan four-day tour. This covers all the caves in Tu Lan and all Hang Tien caves together. It's a physically tough tour and people must have a good degree of fitness. This does involve abseiling if they wish into a river, swimming in caves, dry caves. In fact, everything is involved in this tour. It's a really, really great tour is this, and we run it from January to the end of August. It's again- it's popular because it's a four-day tour, we find in post-COVID, most people want to spend a long time, rather than just the odd day, if the traveling all this distance, they want to spend a long time in the area, 50:28 It's a great choice, Tu Lan and obviously, it's a lot cheaper than Son Doong , you see numerous caves, I think, it'd be the region of 10, 12 calves are completely different, magic campsite. But it is tough. It's not for everybody. It is a little bit tough. And it's probably more popular with a slightly younger people, because of the lack a little bit of a challenge. So maybe it's slightly younger, we still get people up to 60 doing it, but it is a little bit of a tough toll. And I would expect people to have some degree of fitness, you've got to have done something you've got to done quite a bit of trekking before you go on this particular tour. And the last of our tours is not up and running at the moment. But it will be end of February, March. And this is a-- 51:21 22, yeah, I lost track of tours and years with COVID. Yeah, this is going to be called Hang Ba . Now this tour is going to involve six caves, that nobody has been in. But the original explorers, who I was in 1994. I was fortunate to discover these caves, and they were really remote in 1994. Nowadays, it's possible to get into this area with a four- or five-hour jungle walk. Now this may be not for you. Because there will be leeches on the way, leeches++. But leeches don't cause any problems. But it's quite difficult walk-in and walk-out. But the caves are outrageously spectacular. They're massive. They're so unique and nobody's ever visited these caves. Photography will be tremendous. We'll get sunbeam in certain gifts, which is very, very nice to stand in a sunbeam in a certain cave. Kerry Newsome: 51:22 22. Howard Limbert: 52:34 Again, lots of swimming, swimming in the beautiful valleys, campsite, specky, really specky campsites, next to beaches. And again, we do have paddleboard, so people can use paddle boards at the campsite and in certain parts of the caves. You cannot do nothing before you do, you should be able to do a few treks, we advise people to have done some trekking, hopefully multi-day trekking. So, if you've done that, you'll be fine. I think this was the most popular tour after Son Doong . I think it's fabulous city position. I know this area quite well. And it is really unique, there will be a lot of wildlife because it's deep into the jungle. So, there's good chance to scene monkeys and things like that in this area. We see them also at Son Doong , but I think also in this area, we'll see monkeys because it is quite remote. So, I've got a great hope for this tour. And I'll be amazed if-- when people go on the tour, they don't come out and are blown away by it. Really blown away. Kerry Newsome: 53:43 So, this is going to be brand new. So, this is for February, March 22. Howard Limbert: 53:49 Yeah, I've got to get back to Vietnam and get in the jungle and set it all up. We've got a good idea. We've done a bit of work last year. But it's a rainy season at the moment. So, we cannot get into the jungle. But soon as a rainy season is over. By the end of November, we will go in, set the camp, set up the area and work out a proper four-day tour for people, which I guarantee will be spectacular. And people are already asking about. Because many people now, even though we've got lots and lots of tours, especially Vietnamese have done all our tour. And they've done them twice. And now they said, "Can you give us another tour?" And they always want to come back to Oxalis , because it's quite good, they look after people, and they really like it. 54:36 So, this is our new tour, that we're hoping to-- Well, we've got permission from the parks and the authorities to start a new tour. We just need to actually set it up and sort out the finer points of exactly where the campsites are going to be, and the exact route through the jungle. People talk about tourism, and they always feel that it's detrimental. But what we've seen with the tours that we run, because of tourism, there is a lot more wildlife. So, tourism has helped conservation. Now that's really unusual. And the reason isthat we employ, the people are used to the illegal activities, simple as that. So, we employ the best jungle man. 55:27 The people who used to go out, into the jungle collecting animals, collecting the rare wood, they're all employed by Oxalis now, because we decided, we wanted the best people. And these are the best people in the jungle for carrying and looking after people. And it's made a huge difference. Anybody who comes on tour, are really helping the local community. We employ over 98% local people in Oxalis - are 500 people, we have to have one or two from Ho Chi Minh, and Ha Noi, we- special qualifications that we need for certain posts, but the vast majority of people who are from that area, and so they enjoy working and it's a very young company, a lot of young people work, so great company to work for. And it's great fun work in that. And it's helping all the money comes back into the local community. 56:08 And I'm not bullying Oxalis , but the Vietnamese people are lovely helping other people. We give a lot of money to help the local people, be it toilets, floating houses, children, helping people out. I think we give something like underneath $80,000, last year to heritage. And this is purely from tourists, buying T shirts, buying pants, things like that, all- every single penny of the money goes back into foundations that we have, which I really like to see. That's why, I'm still working in Oxalis , rather than retiring and living a nice life. I enjoy being over there, because it's doing good things for the community and helping people, which I think is very important. Kerry Newsome: 57:08 Very important. And I'm really glad to hear that. And I've heard that from other people in Phong Nha as well. So, I'm just really glad to have you on the show, Howard, for your time for your insights, that everything I've learned a lot as well. I'll let you go and enjoy the rest of your day. I know you're off to Iceland, you lucky duck. But thank you again for being on the show and I hope to talk with you again soon. Howard Limbert: 57:35 Thank you, Kerry. It's been a pleasure.

S5-E21 Vietnam Tet Holiday - Preparation and Tips for Tourists S5-E21 Vietnam Tet Holiday - Preparation and Tips for Tourists Episode 21 S5-E21 Vietnam Tet Holiday - Preparation and Tips for Tourists 00:00 / 21:12 With Tet just around the corner, this episode is your ultimate guide to preparing for Vietnam’s most vibrant and culturally rich celebration - don’t miss it!

 Tet, or Tet Nguyen Dan, is Vietnam’s most cherished holiday, marking the Lunar New Year with vibrant traditions, family gatherings, and a festive spirit. This magical time lasts over nine days, featuring rituals like home cleaning, flower displays, and the gifting of red envelopes. Being prepared is the difference between acceptance and frustration. It's like that old saying “Why didn’t someone tell me about this”? In this episode, I’ll walk you through the must-know details to navigate Tet in Vietnam, from the bustling pre-holiday atmosphere to the travel challenges you might face. Whether it’s cultural highlights or practical tips, this quick guide has you covered to make the most of your trip during this unique celebration. Join me as I share 8 essential tips to help you plan your Tet adventure and leave you with a thought-provoking question: With this newfound insight, is Tet in any year, the right time for your Vietnam journey? 00:02:14 - Introduction to Tet
 00:03:09 - Common Questions About Tet
 00:03:29 - Understanding Tet: Duration and Importance
 00:05:06 - Travel Considerations During Tet
 00:06:21 - Is Tet a Good Time for Tourists?
 00:08:09 - What's Open and What's Not During Tet
 00:09:57 - Significance of the Zodiac Animal for the Year
 00:11:03 - Summary of Common Tet Questions
 00:12:29 – 8 Tips for Travelers During Tet
 00:17:23 - Post-Tet Travel in Vietnam 

I wish to take this opportunity to wish everyone happy holidays and a Merry Christmas. Thank you for being such a wonderful audience. See you back here in January 2025. Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here