S5-E12 - Out and About in Mui Ne – Laying bare to the winds of change S5-E12 - Out and About in Mui Ne – Laying bare to the winds of change Episode 12 S5-E12 - Out and About in Mui Ne – Laying bare to the winds of change 00:00 / 23:53 Here I am, "Out & About in Mui Ne," determined to share with you my findings as experienced through my eyes. It's a down-to-earth exploration of Mui Ne's hidden treasures and unique vibe. This is as authentic as it gets! Drawing inspiration from a previous episode S3- E17 I did with Nikki Cornish, I set out to explore this famous beachside location, known for its luxurious resorts like the Sailing Club Resort and its unique sand dune landscape. An Instagram favourite known to be very popular with travelling Russians, it is just a short three-hour drive away from the bustling streets of Ho Chi Minh City. Thanks to improved highways, reaching Mui Ne was a breeze. I cover other other transportation options like trains and buses on the show however I opted for a private driver due to the bulk of luggage I had in tow. Lets just say, we let the winds be our guide to an interesting stay.
The must see tourist attractions covered are: • The Sand Dunes • The Fairy Stream • The Lighthouse I hope the detail I provide helps you with your trip planning. My stay gets very personal to me, as we visit a close friend's family farm near Phan Thiet, providing a firsthand glimpse into Vietnam's agricultural heart. Having a local friend show us around made all the difference during our stay. This intimate connection not only enhanced our exploration of local seafood cuisine but also deepened our understanding of Vietnamese culture and the city's main population. Without my friend Linh’s guidance, I can candidly say we would have missed a lot. Her insights added layers of meaning to our experiences, turning an ordinary trip into a rich journey of discovery. 
She really made the trip for me and she took the role as guide for the 3 days we were there. Travel Tip:- Mui Ne is not as Westerner-friendly as other cities, with a strong Russian presence and limited English-speaking locals. I advise doing research or consulting with a Travel agent or Guide to make the most of your visit. Or get in touch with yours truly to plan your Vietnam holiday complete.

 01:00 - Inspiration for Visiting Mui Ne 
02:18 - First Impressions /Getting There
 03:57 - The wind factor/ Accommodation Tips
 05:44 - Tourist Attractions 
 12:34 - How long to stay 
20:31 - Mui Ne's ideal tourist Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-E14 - Phong Nha. Family fun for everyone S5-E14 - Phong Nha. Family fun for everyone Episode 14 S5-E14 - Phong Nha. Family fun for everyone 00:00 / 36:17 Hey there, fellow adventurers! Today's episode comes straight from my recent Out & About escapade in Phong Nha, and let me tell you, it's a tale worth sharing – but we'll save that for another day. For now, I'm dedicating this special episode exclusively to families, because trust me, you're in for a delightful surprise once you discover all the incredible activities beyond the caves. Believe me, you won't want to miss out on this "life-changing" experience – one kid even described it as "EPIC"! Today, I have the pleasure of chatting with Ben Mitchell, an all-around family man and the mastermind behind the beloved Phong Nha Farmstay. Nestled in northern central Vietnam, Phong Nha is the perfect blend of rich history, cultural immersion, and unforgettable family fun. Plus, it's conveniently situated halfway between the bustling hubs of Hoi An and Hanoi, making it a an adventure in itself getting. What makes Phong Nha truly shine is its breathtaking natural beauty, boasting stunning landscapes and mesmerizing limestone karsts just waiting to be explored. From cave tours to jungle treks, kayaking to river cruises, there's no shortage of adventures to be had here. And let's not forget about the Phong Nha-Ke Bang National Park, a UNESCO World Heritage Site, home to some of the world's most jaw-dropping caves, including the legendary Son Doong Cave. But wait, there's more! Beyond the caves, Phong Nha offers a plethora of activities like biking through picturesque countryside, discovering the charms of Bong Lai Valley, and soaking in the tranquil rural vibes of Vietnam. And lets not forget the Duck Stop. Trust me, the journey to these wonders is just as incredible as the destinations themselves, with each day trip offering a chance to learn, explore, and immerse yourself in the beauty of Phong Nha. Ben really opens up about the kinds of experiences he has witnessed families have during their stay. Okay, it's time to seize the moment! Whether you're tuning in with your earbuds or blasting it through your stereo this weekend, get ready to be inspired. Ooops - I nearly forgot to mention. Contact The Phong Nha Farmstay to book directly; mention this podcast, and receive - One FREE dinner for two adults at the Chefs Table- Mon/Wed/Friday. Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-E19-Facelift and Dental surgery Vietnam – A good news story S5-E19-Facelift and Dental surgery Vietnam – A good news story Episode 19 S5-E19-Facelift and Dental surgery Vietnam – A good news story 00:00 / 46:22 In this episode of What About Vietnam, we uncover a hidden gem: Vietnam’s rising reputation as a hotspot for affordable, high-quality dental and cosmetic procedures. My co-host Kelley shares her transformative facelift journey with a trusted hospital in Saigon, which combines expert dental and cosmetic care in one “one-stop shop.” So to speak! Kelley’s uplifting experience goes beyond surgery - it’s a unique way to pair self-care with a holiday! With her personal tips and stories (and a few giggles )we got to share along the you’ll learn some of the do’s and don’ts of medical tourism and why Vietnam is fast becoming a destination for consideration. 

With Kelley’s personal story, along with another major dental patient’s experience during the same visit, we aim to share why, in our opinion, the Worldwide Dental and Beauty Hospital in Saigon stands out for its exceptional standards of care - and why we’re excited to serve as their introduction agency. To be frank, we can only speak with full confidence to our experience with this one hospital. It's a "no holds barred" episode packed with insights that will make you see Vietnam in a whole new light. Plus, join our exclusive Facelifts and Dental Vietnam Facebook Group for more real-life stories and support. Listen now and discover why Vietnam could be the perfect place to get the procedure you’ve always wanted - at a price you can afford - while turning the whole experience into a memorable holiday! Check out our previous dental episode here. https://www.whataboutvietnam.com/series-2/episode-10/vietnam-dental-holiday---save-money-on-dental-while-on-your-holiday Go to our website page here talking dental and our enquiry page for more info – (Facelift surgery page coming soon) https://www.whataboutvietnam.com/dental-travel-services Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-13 - Out and About in Nha Trang - The city of 300 days of sunshine S5-13 - Out and About in Nha Trang - The city of 300 days of sunshine Episode 13 S5-13 - Out and About in Nha Trang - The city of 300 days of sunshine 00:00 / 18:55 Welcome back to What About Vietnam! Get your ears ready for another insightful episode in our mini-series, Out & About in Vietnam where I check out what Nha Trang has to offer, in a 3 day stay. Nha Trang is not just another beautiful beach destination; it's a cultural melting pot. From the moment you step foot in Nha Trang, you're greeted by its buzzy, somewhat noisy atmosphere along the promenade. For the best stunning beach shoreline view, in the evening, I suggest heading to the Skylight roof top bar. https://skylightnhatrang.com/ An even better idea is to get up early and enjoy a mesmerising sunrise in the quietness of the day. A quick mention about the lovely Potique Hotel https://potiquehotel.com/ who sponsored this episode. A relatively new elegant city hotel, offering spacious well-designed rooms in that rich Indochine style with amazing beach views. Private access arranged at the beach and cafés, and restaurants right at your front door. We loved our stay. Go direct to the hotel LINK HERE https://potiquehotel.com/ for the best offers and mention this podcast. But there's more to Nha Trang than meets the eye. Beyond the beaches, I briefly touch on the variety of cuisines available to tantalise your taste buds. I forget to mention the amazing feast I had of lobster. So cheap and so delicious, you can find the restaurant on Google maps under Luong Son Cang Restaurant. For those adventure seekers, Nha Trang is a treasure trove of adrenaline-pumping activities. From exhilarating water sports, including top-notch diving, to the excitement of island hopping, which we tried as it included the mud baths experience!!! Let’s just say, – it's an experience unlike any other! Journey beyond the city centre to uncover it’s real gems; like the Po Nagar temple, offering insights into Vietnam's fascinating Cham history and Salt mining in the salt fields about an hour out of town.

Please refer back to previous episodes:- S4-E5 – With Colm Hutchinson as he shares 10 of the best things to do in Nha Trang S3-E06 – With Jeremy Stein as he talks about the birth of Padi diving in Nha Trang Until next time, happy travels from What About Vietnam! Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5- E2 – Choosing Hoi An as a Digital Nomad Destination S5- E2 - Choosing Hoi An as a Digital Nomad Destination 00:00 Kerry Newsome Hello Flo, welcome to What About Vietnam. I've been wanting to do a show about the subject of digital nomading for quite some time. I'm delighted to have you on the show and I'm really interested in delving into this subject because obviously since COVID, even pre-COVID, there's been a lot of talk about digital nomading. And now with the remote working situation that was kind of born and fostered since COVID, people being able to travel again and looking for different ways to work away. I'm really keen to talk about what brought you to Vietnam 00:52 Florian Rucker Hi Kerry, Yeah, it's a fascinating subject. I love talking about it. I came to Vietnam and Hoi An as a digital nomad. I was in Chiang Mai before. Chiang Mai has a burning season where really you want to leave the north of Thailand during that time. And Vietnam always had the sense of adventure to me, like a little bit like Thailand, but much more adventurous and kind of like a little bit more, maybe like a little bit more rough around the edges, but very promising. And that's kind of like what lured me to Vietnam. There's a deep sense of freedom here, which also you don't have in that many Asian countries. So it's a very strong sense of live and that live. And yeah, so much about Vietnam. Then Hoi An in particular, it's funny. So it took me a long time to figure out, do I want to be in Da Nang or do I want to be in Hoi An? And I want to be, I was a little bit unsure about it. I was like, what's the right place? Clearly Da Nang is more of a city. It has a slightly larger community. And so I tried that first. And then it turned out that I was actually quite lonely in Da Nang, which is actually a typical city effect, big city effect. In theory, there's more people, but it's easy to get lost a little bit. So then I was like, oh, Hoi An supposedly has this great, like tight knit, smaller, but like closer, a nomad community. So I was like, let's try this out for a few days. I did that, luckily it's just 30 minutes away, but it sometimes feels much further away because Hoi An is really, you know, they're so deeply embedded into nature and like much smaller, much, much cuter kind of. But yeah, so I did that 30 minute trip and I was like, let's try this for three or four days. And then I just stayed. I just went back to Da Nang to pack my bags. And yeah, so Hoi An won my heart over very easily. And for me, again, it's mostly about the community. Now it helps to have the rice fields, to have the ocean, I have the mountains not far away. The old town, actually I leave a little bit for visitors. I go there like once in a blue moon, but that's a little bit more of a tourist thing. It's beautiful, but of course, if you live here, you're gonna be a little bit more focused on the nature. 03:01 Kerry Newsome I couldn't agree with you more. Da Nang is an interesting city and I'm glad you brought it up in comparison to Hoi An. And I want to delve into a little bit more about why Da Nang and why Hoi An. But in particular, Da Nang, I find is very spread out. It's very hard to find a center to Da Nang, in my opinion. And it is, as you say, quite challenging for international tourists or international travelers in Da Nang, unless you know somebody or you go there in particular to do some work or maybe you work in hospitality or something like that. Other than that, I can totally relate to your kind of feeling a little bit estranged and a little bit lonely in that city. I can easily do the same. So I tend to only have a couple of days there because I know people there. But once I've seen them, half an hour down the road is my next community, which is Hoi An. And you're right, it is very community-based, Hoi An, and it's easier to get around. So you haven't got that big city expansiveness. There's definitely centers. You've got the old town and then you've got the beach. And they're both kind of different kind of vibes, I guess, is a way to describe it. But I think you did well and I think it was a smart move to choose Hoi An because I think from a community aspect, that's very, very easy to sell and very easy to become a part of. And they're pretty welcoming in Hoi An, no matter who you are or what you do, they seem to just open their arms to you. So good choices there. But I have a question. Out of all the cities in Vietnam for digital nomading and workation as we're going to talk about, why did Da Nang and secondary to that Hoi An, why not Hanoi, why not Ho Chi Minh, why not, I don't know, some other major city per se? 05:22 Florian Rucker Yeah, yeah, sure, absolutely. So the big cities have their own advantages, of course. So if you're into being in a big city, if you want to have just more options, let's say maybe you do like a specific kind of dance, like advanced salsa or you might want to have like a big drop shipping community, which happens to be one of the professions that nomads like, you might want to go to Saigon or Hanoi. Also, of course, there's going to be, just in general, a little bit more happening. In Hoi An, we'll have a good party maybe two or three times a month. And obviously in the big cities, every weekend, Friday to Sunday. Hoi An to me has, so first of all, it's in general the small town effect of, yeah, you drive everywhere in 10 minutes, you drive to the beach in 10 minutes, you drive to the old town in 10 minutes, often less actually, everybody is nearby. And then people get to know each other in different ways. When you go to a party here, after being here for a while, you'll know the people. It's a very sweet, small community. And I also kind of enjoy the mix of, you have your expats who will send their kids to an international school here. They've been here for years, sometimes decades. You have your tourists who might've arrived yesterday and they might be leaving tomorrow. And you have your digital nomads, kind of my people. I guess I'm slowly turning into an expat here, but in spirit, I consider myself still a nomad. Who might be sticking around for a couple of months, sometimes a couple of weeks. And I really enjoy the dynamism of that kind of that mix. It's like a very fun kind of salad bowl of people hanging out together. And yeah, at the end of the day, it's just a really close knit community. There's a lot of events in the small community and they're harder to find. For me, a lot harder to find in the big city. In the big city, you have to do a lot more work on your own. And I include Da Nang in that. And in that regard, I don't consider Hoi An secondary to Da Nang. If you like the big city, then Da Nang is for you. If you like a community where the events are almost like served to you and almost like curated for you. 07:48 Kerry Newsome And it's definitely a more chilled vibe. I mean, we're gonna talk a little bit more about what you've done with Hub Hoi An, which is awesome. But I just think that if you are the kind of digital nomad that wants that real hyper kind of stay and communication and connectivity with people, yes, you're right. You know, Ho Chi Minh or Hanoi. And there are some very established communities that operate and do this kind of thing very well and have done so for many years. You're right. It's a totally different connection for a digital nomad. So I guess it's up to the individual about, you know, the kind of community they want to work in, to become a part of if that's where they're heading. What does a digital nomad need to have or do or whatever 08:49 Florian Rucker to just make it happen? What makes it possible? I mean, I guess the obvious one would be internet connectivity that's just been on the up and up. And in Southeast Asia, it's actually surprisingly good. I don't know what it's like where you're from. Like the countries I've lived in Europe, for example. Yeah, not that great, right? For you as well. And I've been surprised about how good the coverage is here. 4G, LTE, internet everywhere. You might be on a hike somewhere in the jungle and you get like a video call from your mom at home. This is true. And you'd be like, what, what? Yeah, because you're still connected. That's one of the things that like positively surprises people, but it has a laptop now rather than a desktop. So that's kind of like the very foundation of it. And then step by step, we're seeing a cultural shift towards this being possible, right? Well, this used to be a gradual shift, right? Like every year it's become a little bit more normal. You know, initially it was a little bit more the freelancers and then maybe increasingly companies would also allow employees to do this. It's become also much more of a, you know, we want to keep amazing talent. So we're going to help them have the best life that they can have, right? And so we're going to support this. More and more companies are now paying for their employees, coworking space memberships. We had this gradual increase. And then of course, since COVID, we've seen this massive shift towards work at home. And with that, this massive shift, also an attitude of employers, right? So this is now something that's just, everybody practiced this for two years. And so this now makes it possible for a lot more people to do this. And we're also seeing a lot more people come into the space that are new to this, right? That might be on their first trip. Whereas before we had always a lot of people who've been doing this for years and just a couple of new people. Right now, a lot more like new faces. 10:39 Kerry Newsome Which of course we love and it's also become more diverse. Intrigued, and I think everyone listening would be also intrigued. Is this just for young people or is this, is there a certain type of person? Like you'd have to be fairly used to being mobile. You couldn't be a kind of a sedentary person. So you've got to be able to pack up everything and put it in a backpack or a bag and move on to the next location with, as you say, your laptop, your bits and pieces, I guess, to make it happen. Is there a kind of a certain kind of person that succeeds or does very well in this form of remote work? 11:24 Florian Rucker Honestly, I don't think we're seeing a lot of limits here. It's definitely not limited by age. It's also at the co-working space. Sure, like are there more people who are maybe in there, like late 20s, 30s? Yes, but we're seeing customers of all ages come by and we love that too. We're really all about diversity and that goes along all kinds of axes, right? In terms of what you need to bring, I mean, you need a passport and you need a… Some people literally just work on their phone. If you have a laptop, it'll probably be a little bit more productive, but that's all you need to bring. Now, most people are used to traveling and packing up their backpack or their suitcase. It might be a skill that you get better at. After a while you realize, oh, okay, maybe I also should have a travel scale or like one of those laundry packs that allow you to compress your stuff, but you're just fine without that. The kind of person that succeeds, honestly, I don't think it's that much of a challenge. You should be aware that no wedding doesn't have only advantages, right? It's obviously exciting. It's obviously an amazing way to… It's a very attractive option, but it has challenges and you shouldn't go in all starry eyes and not assuming that. So read up on it. And very specifically, I would mention, if you're traveling by yourself, your friends and your family stay at home, right? So you need to… And that's why we already talked about community. So you should be… Unless you love being alone and by yourself and some people, that's them, you'll want to have a plan for how you meet people. You'll want to make that a priority in your scheduling and it comes more natural and more easily to people. Some people just walk into a bar and they walk out with five friends. Others need to be scheduling ahead for events that might be happening or go to a space that makes those events for them, right? And that's definitely part of my mission at the hub. We have many weekly events and we do a lot. This is honestly almost as important to us as making people productive. It's like helping them be social. So I would that consider the first challenge. The other one is, if your colleague or your boss isn't sitting next to you, you need to be a little bit more on top of your time management and your self-management. Now that's a skill that you can learn. I wouldn't say I'm like a role model for that and I've gotten a lot better at it. So for example, I learned like I can't really work in a hotel room. That's one of those things that just make it very hard for me to actually get into work mode. So I need to go to another place where I can focus and where my subconscious understands. 14:10 Kerry Newsome That's a really good point to bring up because I think there is two different types of people. I mean, I can work from a hotel room and certainly in Vietnam when it's hot during the middle of the day, it's probably my best option to sit in the hotel room to jump on my computer, stay in the air conditioning and then go out when it's cooler. And I kind of wised up to the Vietnamese that they would kind of do things early, early morning or afternoon, because in the middle of the day, it's just too damn hot. But I know also after that, I likewise have to get out and I have to make a point of going somewhere for some kind of community aspect or connectivity, especially because I tend to use up all of my 30 days visa as I can at this point. So this is probably a good segue for us to talk about visas and how in the digital nomading space, how people manage it, because I know I've seen with the hub, even prior to yourself taking it over, people coming in and coming out, coming in and coming out because the visa restrictions became quite prohibitive. And we're still on a tourist visa of 30 days, but there is talks of a 90 day visa coming back, which will be joy, oh joy, I think for certainly your business and for people like me who maybe want to stay five weeks or six weeks. And for long haul people, I think the aspect, if you're coming from Europe or you're coming from the States, it is a long trip. You do want to have a really good experience of Vietnam. And something I really try to do in this podcast is emphasize to people that Vietnam is just so diverse to try and fit it all in, in a very short time, is crazy stuff. And you may not even enjoy it if you have to do that. So giving yourself more time, time becomes a real luxury in this space because Vietnam, it's just so wonderful in the sense that you can just have so many different experiences. And if you can do that while you can fit in work, well, wahoo to that. That is just to me a swimming idea. Let's just talk a little bit about how you or some of the people in your community, how they're getting around the visa situation. 16:56 Florian Rucker what are their aspirations or hopes in this space? So if you don't mind, let me just say something about the traveling and working. That can be a little bit more challenging if you're a nomad, right? So if you're here mostly for sightseeing and just seeing the country in your free time, go for it. You're absolutely right. Vietnam is full of natural wonders and beauty and ethnic diversity even. If you're a nomad, I mean, be aware of the time cost of travel, be aware of even the energy drain of sitting in a bus, sitting in a plane, sitting in a cab and how much resources will you still have available for getting your work done? And then whether you're okay to get work done just maybe in some local cafe, with the very low plastic chairs that the Vietnamese love. I've done that and that's possible, right? And it's actually a fun challenge, but it is a bit of a challenge. So most nomads tend to, especially if they do full-time, they tend to cherish more spending a little bit more time in one place, finding the right spot for getting work done. But then, you know, the advantage of that is you get to know people a little bit more. You might have your favorite like local coffee shop or banh mi shop and you get to know the people a little bit. You get to know, oh, what's going on in their life right now, which is a very cool insight that you might not get in the same way if you're just kind of like rushing through. Right? Okay, so what you actually asked me about the visa situation and how people are dealing with it, right? Yes, we're on a one month visa right now. What my members are doing is border runs, right? And honestly, I love the OGs and the nomad community are used to that. 18:42 Kerry Newsome OGs, I just want to get acronyms right, you know. I'm so out of it with it. Yeah. What is OG actually? 18:54 Florian Rucker It's long term nomads. It's kind of like those guys who have been around the block. You know? I'm probably one of those guys, but in a different way. So, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of things about Vietnam that I think you know that I don't because I'm working a lot, right? I work a lot and also happen to be in Vietnam. And you're an expert in enjoying Vietnam, I think. I certainly hope so. All of its different ways. The people who've been nomading for years and who know different countries, they know sometimes you're in a place where you have to do board runs. And that means once a month, once a month, I mean, flights from Da Nang are so cheap, right? You fly to Bangkok, you fly to Singapore. I mean, even like to more interesting places like Taiwan, Japan, it's not that expensive. So you do that for a weekend, then you come back and you continue, right? And if you want to stay in one place for many months, it actually becomes quite attractive to spend a weekend, say in Chiang Mai or in Bangkok. So that's the one option of doing a borrder run. The other one is taking a bus. That does mean spending the better part of a day in a bus, right? Five hours to the border to Laos, five hours back, that sort of deal. Those tend to be organized trips, so you don't really have to worry about much. It's just a day that you invest and then that's it. I think both of those are not that bad. Of course, we would prefer to just have a 90 day visa. But even with a 90 day visa, people do board runs, right? It's just a little bit more efficient. You do one board run and you get three months for it. But with a 90 day visa in the past, we had people who would do this repeatedly. 20:36 Kerry Newsome and then stay maybe half a year or something like that. Talk to us a little bit, if you will, Flo, just about financial planning for this kind of, I keep referring it to workation, but do you have to have lots of savings set up and to do it efficiently or to do it in a way? Or can you, in your experience. Can you kind of do it on a shoestring kind of thing? 21:01 Florian Rucker Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, so workation is also a good word for it, right? I feel like there's a fluid transition from workation to nomading. If you wanna try this, you could do a workation for two weeks and try this out, see if that shoe fits you. And then if you decide to stay or do it again. 21:23 Kerry Newsome at some point you become a digital nomad. Do you have to have resources and funds set up to kind of support you through this while you're figuring it all out? Or can you pretty much do it fairly cheaply? 21:38 Florian Rucker Got it. Yeah, so for the financial planning part of nomading, I would say it's almost the other way around. People tend to save money while they're nomading. The most popular nomad destinations are quite affordable. Now, there are exceptions. Portugal used to be affordable, and then so many nomads came there that now it's actually known to be not that cheap anymore. I mean, maybe if you're coming from like, really expensive cities like London or New York, you'll still be saving money in Lisbon. But other than that, it's become not affordable anymore. But Vietnam, Thailand, many other places, Georgia, are all Bulgaria, sorry, are all very affordable countries. And so planning always helps. So for example, if you really want to leverage those cost benefits, you probably want to sublet your flat at home, right? And you probably want to make sure all of your financial obligations back at home are- Managed. Managed or paused or cancelled. And then you really just enjoy having the low cost of life abroad. That's what I would say. And then you can, yes, you can really do it on a shoestring. So for example, Vietnamese in Hoi An will rent a room for maybe like $100. And that includes AC, right? Now that's not Western standards, but- $100 a week or a month? It's fine, right? A month. Now that's what a Vietnamese would usually take. And I'm saying most, like, most of your listeners would prefer a room that, sorry, it's at 250, but maybe more like three, 350. But because you were asking, is it really possible on a shoestring? My answer is yes, yes, it really is. And then it scales up, right? So if you're willing to pay $1,000 a month for accommodation, because maybe you said that from home, you're gonna get a villa, possibly like very close to the beach or by the beach. So it's just a lot more bang for your buck. Yeah. And then if we take this another level, this might be a bit of a tangent, but people who really do long-term digital nomading, they might deregister from home, so they're not in their local tax system anymore. And they might be able to save a lot on taxes. So it's a common thing. People who stay in one place less than six months, in all of the places essentially where they are less than six months, will not trigger tax obligations anywhere. And then a common setup would be to have a US LLC to provide your invoices. And that's essentially a tax-free setup. So you can optimize this to a pretty far extent. Yeah. One thing that, the final thing I would add is, you do want to think about your health insurance. There are, travel insurances are great for travelers, but travel insurances are not the same as a real long-term health insurance. The main difference being that a long-term health insurance cannot kick you out if something serious happens. A travel insurance will be great for, you know, a small accident or whatever. And that's maybe a financial thing that people might not be thinking about immediately, but that maybe they should. 24:56 Kerry Newsome That's really great information. And in particular, I'm glad you talked about the travel insurance versus the health insurance. People tend to consider that a little bit too late in the story. I'm going to talk about Hoi An now and what you're doing with the hub, because I got a chance to come out and have a look. And I was describing it and hope I'm gonna do this justice by your standards anyway. But it was amazing just to see the way you have built it so that the people are working in these glass rooms, fully air conditioned glass rooms, which are kind of almost sitting in a rice paddy field. So they're surrounded by all this nature. And I think on the day I was there, there was a buffalo was kind of musing around the glass. And like no one in there seemed to be perturbed by that. They kind of looked around and then they kept working on their laptops. And then I just thought how crazy great that was and just why it would be just a real change of environment for people. And I think after COVID in particular, we got a bit starved for environmental changes and new places again, and our hearts kind of sunk a little bit in that time. So I do see, they're calling it now revenge travel where people are wanting to get back out there and go hard. And I think with the remote work opportunities opening up, you're really in the right place and the right business. So talk to us a little bit about the hub and tell us what you're doing there? 26:46 Florian Rucker . Right, yeah, thanks for that lovely description of the hub. Yeah, the hub has been around since 2017 actually. And before we were in a small location that was also kind of close to the rice fields, but I always felt like it didn't really make use of that. So people were kind of like sitting in the bag and we already had one of the small glass houses there, all glass and then it looked into the garden, which was also lovely. When I was thinking of growing the hub a little bit bigger, I started looking for properties that are all in on the rice fields. And I got very lucky to find one that's actually right next to the old location almost and has rice fields on two sides. And I was like, let's double down on this glass house thing so people can really enjoy nature. It's something that the locals sometimes don't appreciate as much, I noticed. For them, the rice field is, it's probably like an economic area, right? Like that's where like rice is produced. And then we're like, wow, like this intense green and like the wind moving over the grains, right? Like you see it and then all the nature of the birds that like love this area. Yeah, so I was like, let's go all in on this and go all glass wall. That's essentially the hub. It's all about that view and then the community, right? So we have the silent area, the main glass house, the silent area for focus work and kind of library rules. The smaller one is a cause of loud room. So we're trying to manage those zones that everybody kind of gets their productivity right. And then we do the events. So right now, as we're talking, actually my staff is doing ice bathing with the members. They go crazy over ice bathing. Somebody suggested this once. I was like, okay, I wanna make this happen for you. I know ice bathing is a thing. 28:35 Kerry Newsome And it's popular. Talk to us about ice bathing. 28:38 Florian Rucker This could be interesting. Sure, yeah. So this has become, this has really become a trend and you hear more and more people talking about it now. Essentially it's a bathtub. We have a movable plastic bathtub. It's a bathtub with a bunch of ice. We buy these days four relatively big bags of ice. I think those are maybe 50 liter bags. And people go in there. It drops down to three, four degrees Celsius and people go in for a couple of minutes. And it's an intense experience. It's not necessarily immediately pleasant for everyone. Well, it's funny because it's intense but it's also peaceful at the same time. So you go in and it hurts a little bit. It's a little bit uncomfortable, right? But after about 90 seconds, two minutes, like this relaxation starts to kick in. And like, I don't know, everything kind of like, just like tunes out and then you come out of it and you feel just in bliss. 29:42 Kerry Newsome . And I guess if you're going from a very hot day and then you're jumping in that or not jumping in it, but sitting in it very quickly and getting out when you can't stand it any longer, just those different in temperatures is a good thing for the body to work hard at repairing itself from one extreme to the other. And when you've got 90% humidity in Hoi An sometimes, around about now it would be getting very hot. I would think over there. So good idea with the cool baths making that happen. That was a smart move. And I guess refreshing for the mind as well, for people to then go back into whatever they're working on. They've just had a little bit of a refresh and regroup to go back and work. 30:33 Florian Rucker I think that's a fab idea. Yeah, and that's what we focus on a lot. Most of our activities are kind of like, what also makes sense with getting work done, right? So we might be doing a short meditation, a daily meditation. We might be doing, people go bouldering together. So sometimes we also all go party together, but that's not that common. So it's, people need to get work done. They need to be fit the next day. So we're trying to find a good mix. Yesterday we did board games. 31:03 Kerry Newsome So Flo tell me like, what would be the average spend of time would a person have at the hub? Like would they come for just a couple of hours? Do they come for, like, do they try and work around a normal day? Or do they, like, is it open in the evening? Like, just some gauge on the hours and how you operate from a open perspective. 31:30 Florian Rucker Sure, yeah. So for people who've never been there, we have kind of normal opening hours, Monday to Saturday, nine to 5.30. But once you've come for the first time and maybe paid for either just a day pass or a longer membership, week pass, month pass, you can say 24-7 essentially. So because we have members from, we're really one of the most international co-working spaces in Vietnam, maybe the most international. In terms of kind of duration, that's common for our members. The smallest passes is day pass. We decide to not do hourly. And yeah, some of these people will just like walk in. They might be there mostly as tourists, but they're like, okay, I gotta get some work done and they'll come for a day or two. Pretty common is also a month or maybe three weeks. Three weeks has become very common because people will get a one-month visa and they might wanna spend a couple of days here and there and then their main chunk is at the hub. And then when people do border runs, you know, they might be staying for several months. 32:33 Kerry Newsome . Would you offer some tips for people who are planning on doing this or maybe they're talking to their companies about this option? Is there any advice or tips you'd like to share? Because I'm sure there's gonna be some people who are inspired to come and work in Vietnam and maybe work in your Hub. 32:58 Florian Rucker So I mean, my main advice is just do it. It might seem like this big crazy thing to be working from Vietnam or another exotic country. It's really not. You know, we have all the facilities that you'll need. There's areas where you can have calls. There's good internet. Time zone differences to most places aren't that bad. US time zones are something else. You need to be aware that you can actually work very late, but yeah, just do it. In terms of talking to your employer, it might help if you start out with a short duration. Maybe start out with a one week or two week stint and demonstrate to them that you are productive abroad. Prove to them that you are, that you can do it. And people do that. It's very feasible. I think that's the main message. 33:46 Kerry Newsome And Flo, just to finish up, is it kind of an acceptable practice in Vietnam? Like how does the Vietnam government feel about it? How do the locals feel about it? 33:59 Florian Rucker I think this is a good thing. Yeah, so from the kind of the law perspective is you're just here as a tourist. As long as you don't work for a Vietnamese company, you are here as a tourist. You will just get a tourist visa and that makes it very easy and very simple, right? You're getting a foreign salary and you're spending that in Vietnam. So that's great. You know, that's what people want. I think I'm pretty sure the locals, it's still a little bit new for them. And we're not a huge group in proportion to, for example, the tourists. So a lot of them won't yet totally get it. But those that do appreciate us, which I think is really cool, they see we're actually not tourists. We're not backpackers. We might be a little bit, maybe sometimes a little bit more stick-headed, sometimes a couple of years older. And we tend to also be a little bit more interested in actually what are people like here? And people appreciate that. 35:00 Kerry Newsome Yeah, so the reputation is really quite decent. I was just thinking as you were saying that, that, you know, the domestic tourists in Vietnam, so this is the Vietnamese who have English very much as their second language and are very much attuned to working remotely. I wondered whether or not you would start to attract some of those individuals to the hub, because, you know, if they're working in Saigon and they can still do the same work from Hoi An at the hub and still get their work done, they're in the same time zone, blah, blah, blah, why wouldn't they, you know, tune in and be able to hook up at the hub with all the wifi and all the facilities that you offer? 35:52 Florian Rucker So that may be something that you may grow into. We are seeing that more and more. The number is still rather small. Vietnam is still a slightly more traditional country and it tends to be a little bit harder for employers here to be like, oh, you're not gonna sit in my office. So it's still a bit new, but Vietnam is also a very dynamic country. So there are more and more freelancers and people from Saigon and Hanoi love Hoi An as well. So it's not only foreigners, it's also there's a lot of internal tourism coming from the big cities. And they're more and more realizing, oh, there's a co-working space here, I can also get work done here. So we're starting from a small number, but every year we're getting a couple more Vietnamese. And those, just like our other customers, they tend to be the cool ones, you know, the people you wanna have a conversation with who have interesting stories to tell. Yeah, I'm sorry you didn't ask about this, but I'm amazed about my customers. Just like the last two days, I had conversations with people that like blew my mind and that totally inspired me. And that's one of the things I love about this. 36:59 Kerry Newsome Yeah, I would think it would be amazing. I mean, just to have so many different people in different work life situations and different countries, sharing, you know, their knowledge. I mean, I know even just the time I spent with you and, you know, meeting the people, it was like, oh wow, what a connection to have and what a community to have access to is just fabulous. It was very inspiring. I mean, what countries are you seeing come through? 37:29 Florian Rucker in the biggest numbers? Very, very mixed, very mixed. All of those, all of the above. All of the above and what I love is that we're seeing more and more also from countries that haven't been as represented before. So we've always had a lot of Europeans, we've always had a lot of Americans. Now we're also increasingly seeing a couple of Japanese, Koreans, more and more Indians, which is really cool. And it's also very, very cool to kind of, similar to lead to our other customers, those tend to be the ones that have like slightly cooler jobs, you know, they might be like a senior product manager or something like that. And it is so good to get across all these stereotypes and just kind of be like, oh yeah, we're all nomading here, right? We're all kind of like young or not so young professionals. And yeah, so really from everywhere recently, we've had more and more South Americans, a lot of people from Argentina. Yeah, so interesting, right? Apparently it's partially an economic thing, right? So people from Argentina are looking for jobs abroad because of their currency issues and economic woes. And so when they're like, oh, I'm working for a company abroad now, I'm already remote. I might as well, you know, check out this other country. And we're also seeing more Israelis. And there again, we're kind of seeing a push factor of kind of the local political issues that they have. In a way at the hub, we're also often very much on the cutting edge of like figuring out what's happening in other countries. And so for example, what I learned recently is that Israel, this is not just a political thing, right? Politics sounds so abstract, right? But there's a deep societal crisis in Israel right now. And similarly, you know, like it might sound so abstract to talk about like currency devaluation, but yeah, right. Like people are being pushed out of Argentina and out of their economy because of these issues. But also we learn about tech, we learn about, you know, people always use, everybody uses ChatGPT in our space, right? People use these new things and there's so much like exchange going on that it's all very cutting edge. 39:40 Kerry Newsome And yeah, and very exciting. And I think, you know, for me it's life choice and it's for people who are not satisfied or want something different or want something, you know, as you say, it's not always gonna be better, but it will be different. It'll be life-changing. You will get to meet a lot of people that, you know, wouldn't come your way any other way. So I think it has lots of options for people. So to everyone listening, I hope you found some factual as well as kind of experiential knowledge of what it's like to be a digital nomad in Hoi An. And I'm really thankful for you coming on flow to give us that insight and just great to chat. 40:26 Florian Rucker . My pleasure. Thank you, Kerry.

S5- E2 – Choosing Hoi An as a Digital Nomad Destination S5- E2 – Choosing Hoi An as a Digital Nomad Destination Episode 02 S5- E2 – Choosing Hoi An as a Digital Nomad Destination 00:00 / 1:00:24 I’m thrilled to have such an engaging conversation with our guest today about the digital nomad lifestyle. Whether you're a seasoned nomad or just curious about this exciting way of life, this episode is a must-listen! I am fortunate to be joined with Florian Rucker who inspires nomads by providing a unique, friendly, and well fit out co working space in Hoi An called The Hub, to perform this kind of work. If you can imagine having high speed internet, in a glass workspace, in the middle of rice paddy fields, you have it right there! We get down to “tin tacks” as we talk through the evolving landscape of digital nomading and the transformation since Covid. No longer is it just for the youthful adventure seekers, employers are now funding some people to work this way, as they now recognise working remotely doesn’t have to impact output given the right set up. Hoi An and the The Hub provide workers a unique experience in Vietnam and now that the E-Visa stays are being extended to 90 days this looks like being a very viable option for more people. Flo is uniquely qualified to speak to this topic having lived abroad since he was 16. Originally a Berliner, he has a Cambridge education, and has lived in 7 other countries throughout his life. With a background in Development Aid and a IT Agency owner he fell in love with Hoi An after being a customer of the The Hub back in 2017. He bought the space in early 2021 and rebuilt it nearby, in the middle of the rice fields in ‘22/’23. If you would like to know about The Hub – You can contact Flo here – Website: https://www.hubhoian.com/ The Hub social links: 
https://www.instagram.com/hubhoian/ https://www.facebook.com/hubhoian Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-E10 - Out and about in Saigon - The Uncut Edition Out & About in Saigon – UNCUT with host Kerry Newsome & Kelley McCarthy Kerry Newsome : Xin chào and welcome to What About Vietnam. Look here we are still in Saigon and I'm delighted to still be sharing my Out and About mini-series with Kelley McCarthy. Say hello Kelley. Kelley McCarthy : Good morning or good afternoon listeners. Kerry Newsome: Look, we have had a fabulous time and the reason I wanted to produce this next show, the one we're in now, is because we just kept uncovering more and more things and we said, yeah, we need to do another show, we just need to expand. So, this one is really intentionally going to be quite chock-a-block with some of the experiences that we managed to do during the last few days and hopefully for you when you consider coming to Saigon, which for many of you is really just a leapfrog location, you come in, you go out and you go somewhere else. We're kind of thinking more around that you might want to extend. you stay a little bit longer because there is quite a bit to do. So I thought we'd start at the very, very beginning when you've booked your accommodation or we've got you a hotel that either has a breakfast included or it doesn't. Now to be really true and fair and like keeping it all authentic, Kelley's looking at me with this great cheesy grin because we're talking about breakfast. And I'm not a big breakfast girl, but let me tell you, Kelley is a breakfast lover, so I'm going to ask her to speak to the breakfast scene, the cafe scene for that option. Kelley McCarthy: All right, so for myself, I've been going out and having breakfast each day here in Saigon while Kerry's been catching up on, I think, a little bit more of that beauty sleep. So, I have just done Google searches. I like to try a different cafe each day. You have multiple options. So, basically, if you quickly do a Google search of Western breakfast near me, if that's what you're after, Keep in mind, you've got all of your street food, so if you're wanting to have traditional Vietnamese breakfast. There's a couple of great ones that I go to and frequent regularly. One is called The Running Bean. There is two locations in District 1 for that. There's also another great one I discovered this time. It's called The Godmother. That was fantastic for breakfast. Keep in mind also, you can If you do want to have a buffet breakfast and you're not staying in an international hotel, you can actually go to those and purchase breakfast and sit in the hotel and have breakfast. So that is another option. If you sort of want to stay in a hotel that's just a little bit down in the price rankings and then you want to do an exquisite breakfast, that is an option. So keep that in mind. There's a couple of other places, the Runam cafes, they're scattered everywhere and they have multiple options when you go for breakfast. You'll find one of those in Saigon Centre and also in Vincom Plaza, both in District 1. So, plenty of options out there if you want to go from traditional to fully Western. Kerry Newsome : And, you know, I kind of kick in with Kelley, you know, around the more cafe, coffee kind of time of day. So I'm more that midday. I'm more that brunch is what I'd like to call it, thanks Kel. But certainly I really love my coffee and coffee is definitely on the menu here in Vietnam and certainly in Saigon with the cafe scene. So, every 50 metres you're going to find a coffee or cafe scene option anywhere you go. Kelley McCarthy: And that's a great time for me to then kick into the second morning snack, which is my coffee and cake delight, which, let me tell you, are everywhere. I'm like a bunny looking for the next food place just to try something different. So Kerry gets the giggles each time it's, oh, oh, it must be cake o'clock. So off we go. She has her mid-morning coffee and I have my second bout. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, look, if you need someone to try something or to sniff out something that is delicious, she seems to have antennas that will, oh, look at that over there. We need to cross the road now and we need to, sure enough, we open the door and it's this glorious scene of cakes and smells of coffee and yeah, delicious, delicious. Now Kel, we got to think about planning for the day, girls and guys. Now, I've got a really big guys audience, so to you out there this is kind of how we think things could roll for you. So, depending on your appetite, depending on you know, the weather, like how hot it is, depending on whether or not you're an adventure seeker, maybe you're a historian, you know, there's just so many options apart from your main tourist attractions, so places of interest, You know, adventure-wise, you can definitely go out and do the Coochie Tunnels, you can go and explore the Mekong Delta. There's lots. And you can do that through your hotel or you can do that through a local agent. We have a guy that we deal with, Lee Hogan, who does a fabulous job for us and for some of my clients. So, we would definitely put him forward for that. But if you don't want to miss the game or you've got to watch that match or something like that, you might want to head to a bar called Phatty’s Kelley McCarthy : That's P-H-A-T-T-Y’s Kerry Newsome : Yes. And it's pretty famous for, yeah, you'll find a lot of people seeking the same thing in that bar. A lot of expats tend to go there and you know it's just kind of a famous place for keeping up with sports and things like that for that taste I guess. Now, Grab is easy to get around to find Phatty’s. It's in District 1. So, for that kind of interest for you guys, if you want to let us girls go and do our thing, which might be totally different, yeah, that would be our recommendation. Kelley? Kelley McCarthy: Yep, and for the ladies, if you want to drop your husbands off there, it is literally 30 metres to Saigon Centre for some shopping for you to sit down and either have one of those cakes and coffees I talk about, or you could have a walk around the stores in there. So, it's very, very close. Kerry Newsome : Yes. So, that's a good segue into us talking about shopping. So, we'll start with the mains and the reason I want to talk about the mains is in the sense that there is some aspects of each of the main shopping centres that we've kind of figured out that differentiates them and we'll go into more of that in a minute. So there is Saigon Centre, Vincom Plaza, Diamond Plaza and Vincom Megamall. So Kelley maybe you could talk to us a little bit about some of the key differences between the main ones being Saigon Centre and Vincom Plaza. Kelley McCarthy : So Saigon Centre has a large department store in it called Takashimaya. It's a Japanese department store. It is a high-end Japanese department store, but if you go to the lower levels in there, you can get some great specials. Downstairs as well. There's lots of little boutique stores through that shopping center And that one also so Takashi Maya also looks after all the ladies Fragrances skincare products such as your Estee Lauder's and you know all of those skincare groups It also has a couple of stores that are the store independent such as your Chanel, NARS for skincare. So, and then you've got your rotating levels in that centre for other things like your Calvin Klein, and a lot of other independents. So that's the individual boutiques there as well. Where if you go across to Vincom Plaza, that will then have things like Zara, H&M, and another lot of independents, but they don't seem to double up in the larger stores in the same shopping centers like in other countries do. So, that's where it is. Vincom Mega Mall is out in District 2, very similar to Vincom Centre here, but on a larger scale. And then Diamond Plaza is very, very high end. So, that will have your Burberry's, Prada, all of the fragrant houses and then independent brands going up through the levels is there as well. Kerry Newsome : And like, you know, these major centres, you know, sometimes people think of them and say, you know, who wants to go to Vietnam and go to a shopping mall and that kind of thing. You'd be quite surprised to the experience you can have in those shopping centres. It's not, you know, like coming from Australia, I do see the shopping mall becoming very much same, same. You'll go from one shop to another and everything seems to be the same, where there'll be a really big mix in these shopping malls and even to the extent of food and coffee options, really cute cafes And definitely food-wise, certainly in, you know, the centres that we did, Saigon Centre mainly and Vincom Plaza. Kelley, that really cute Japanese-style one that we had that had a kind of a tapas lunch. Yeah, Miava. Yeah, that was just fabulous. And, you know, we actually discussed the fact around, you know, people would not possibly seek it out because it is in a shopping centre. But wow, we were just, price wise it was great, the quality of the food was excellent, and just the variety plus was just, I was really impressed. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, they have some great little places in those shopping centres. And they generally have the food set out on certain floors, but there'll be a couple of little ones scattered through the other level. So really seek out these food places in those shopping centres. Kerry Newsome: It might mean you get a bit dizzy going round and round in the elevators and the lifts, etc. But it's worth doing a search. Now, we would be remiss if we don't talk about markets here. And I guess this is another thing I want to kind of demystify. You know, Vietnam is not just about markets. Definitely not. It's just not now the focus being on copy products and all the rest of it. It has come up into some really high quality artisan goods, creative concept stores and things like that. So, the markets are definitely there and it's an experience you do need to do, I think, at least once. Probably Kelley and I have done it quite a few times. So, we're well practiced in the Ben Thanh markets in the Saigon Square. And Saigon Square is kind of a very smaller version just opposite Saigon Centre. So, you can kind of do both those in the same visit and maybe a little bit more expensive. So, I'm going to lead Kel into just talking about the bargaining side of things because I'm a shocking bargainer. I get what I want, but I probably don't get it at the super best price. But there is a skill to it. And as Kelley was reminding me this morning, you've got to go hard in Ben Thanh Talk to us about going hard in Ben Thanh, Kelley. Kelley McCarthy: So , Ben Thanh market is more of a, you get your fabrics, you can get food in there, you can get a huge variety. It's under one large tin roof, so it is hot in there, so I suggest going in the morning to get your best price. Go in the morning, you get a morning price, and go hard in your bartering. So, they will start off at an astronomical price. So keep it in mind what you would realistically pay for it in your own country if you were happy with it. And that's where you roughly want to be. So for example, 50% at least is what you want to get of what their first price is offering. And just remember, haggling over 20 or 30,000 at the end of the day is a couple of dollars. So don't wear yourself out on that. Do it with a smile. It'll be a lot of good for me, good for you pricing. When you win. When you win. good for you, not so good for me, and with a little bit of a not so much of a big smile, and then they seem to come down. And if you do it with a smile, you'll get a lot further, don't be aggressive. If you're after a lot of the high-end copies, I would suggest Saigon Square for that. A, it's air-conditioned as well, ladies, but that's where you will get, because there is definitely a difference between good copy and bad copy. So in Saigon Square, that is where you'll get the more high-end copy. You will pay a bit more for it, but you'll get a great pair of copy runners for around, I would suggest 1 million to 1.5 million is where you would go with those, but they will start off at 2.5, 3 million, sometimes even higher. So just keep in mind what you're happy with as your price, and then if you come out happy, that's where you go. Don't discuss it with anyone else, because they might then shut you down and make you feel a little incompetent by saying oh we got it for this but at the end of the day it'll be a couple of bucks. Kerry Newsome : Yeah and like for some people you know they really want to treat it like sport and really their talking point for the night will be just how they were able to you know bargain down this person and you know get them for this you know astronomically low price and yeah good on you but like you know this is these people's livelihood too so I don't, you know, Kelley mentioned, you know, $20,000, $30,000 in your own currency, you're going to find that's, you know, $0.30, $0.50, $1, $1.50, $2. And you go, well, if it's really that important, yeah, move on. But if you really want that item, And it's just worth walking away with you both smiling, with a win-win situation. Sometimes it can be a lot of fun. They make jokes. It's a real event, so you can really enjoy your time. part of shopping here in Saigon and certainly around the country is becoming more prevalent and I'm seeing more of and I'm delighted to do so. And that's the concept stores, so that's where you know locals are designing their own goods and making their own goods locally, sometimes out of local produce, and they can be really interesting. So, we kind of had a really good look around the Katinat building, and it's opposite H&M, and H&M is in… District 1. District 1, and the… And it's in Vincom Centre. And in the Vincom Centre. So, when I'm out and about, I kind of get myself to the Vincom Centre, walk out the H&M door to outside and then cross the road and you'll see the Playground and you'll see the Katinat building. And that's how I best describe for you to visit these stores. Definitely make a time to visit these. Now, you're probably not always going to find your size and if you are a mixed size group of people like in your family or whatever, unless you're the small, very small. Size 10. And under. Kelley McCarthy: I buy lots of sunglasses, earrings, bracelets, handbags. Kerry Newsome : Yes and look occasionally I can fit into them you know I'm roughly a 10 in Australian standards but yeah I'm not small shouldered. Kelley McCarthy : Don't be precious about looking at the size tag, go with what fits you. Kerry's a size 10 and I know she's looked a couple of times when they've said Oh, you be extra large or extra, extra large. So, don't let that offend you. That's just their sizing system. Kerry Newsome : Go with what fits. Absolutely. And, you know, while we're in this shopping headset or this part of the program, probably worth mentioning that size thing in a very trip planning mode. So, when you're packing and you're thinking about what to bring, If you are a shoe size over 39, bring all the shoes you need. Kelley McCarthy : So, that's in UK, US and Australian. That would be above, basically a size 8.5. If you're a size 9 or 10, you have got no hope in getting shoes here, unless you buy men's shoes. Kerry Newsome: Yes, but I mean I know even I took my grandson here and he was the size 13, we couldn't find anywhere like shoes to fit and you know my husband coming over for the wedding and I'm thinking about you know shoes I'm going you know 11, 12 is that going to fit maybe? But then we're stuck and he's got runners to wear to the wedding, so no, we won't be doing that. But for me, I'm a 36. So I can pick any shoe off any shelf and it's just a delight. And devastating for me. Kelley stands there and growls. But like seriously it is a pleasure for me to buy shoes over here. So I get all the really natty bits and pieces. So I buy a lot of shoes girls. I'm just I'm just putting it out there. So yeah, and the other aspect, a little bit delicate, but in the undergarment. Kelley McCarthy: Underwear and bras. Ladies, I'm a size 18 and a size 18D in bra cups. Please don't forget this in your suitcase, because you are going to be doing a lot of non-underwear moments. If you do, you will never buy them here. At all. I, for example, I even asked a dressmaker if she could insert a bra into my dress so I didn't have to wear one, a false bra. She just looked at me with this horrified look and said, no cup size big enough. Kerry Newsome: So. No, and they don't know like how to wrap their head around women with busts. So, you know, like if you are. Kelley McCarthy: King Kong comes to mind for them. Kerry Newsome: But have you seen them try to get their arms to get around you when they're doing that tailoring? Like they've got these, you know, beautiful like delicate figures and they're kind of stretching themselves to get around you and you feel like… I get a lot of bear hugs when they're trying to measure me. Yeah, I know, it's crazy. But like, yeah, so don't come and then get stuck with, oh, I really should have bought another sports bra, I really should have bought… And think cotton also in definitely in the hot months because you know, 90% humidity is an average day, so when you're out and about and you're doing things, I've got to tell you, you are really churning and burning clothes, just pure saturation point. So, yeah, just we thought that was definitely worth mentioning for you because we want you to feel good. Kelley McCarthy : It kind of goes for you guys too so you are not going to find extra large underwear if you forget them. Most men here would be a 28 inch waist at best so don't forget your underwear gentlemen as well. Kerry Newsome: Okay point noted. Now, I'm leading now down the path of tailoring. Now, we have to kind of… there's a bit of a caveat with this with us as we have done, as you can tell, lots of shopping in the past and in this trip, but also we've done a lot of tailoring in the past, etc. But we wanted to try tailoring in Saigon. Now, I really have to invite Kelley to share her experience, which came with a reference from a local. So, we didn't go in blindsided. We went into this place, you know, as being told that this was a quality tailor. So, over to you Kelley. Kelley McCarthy : So, going into the tailors here, first tip, be very direct with what you want. Don't sugarcoat it. It's very direct. Pictures are a great thing and they're a great thing to keep hold of to reference back to. For example, our tailor here, I showed pictures, told her what we want, I came back and it wasn't how I'd requested it. They tried to say, you not tell me this yesterday. So, I quickly snapped my phone, pull up the pictures, show them that what I requested is not in the imagery. I think in my situation here in Saigon, had I just nodded and said yes, yes, very happy on the first fitting, all would have gone well. But when I wanted them to tweak a few things, change a few things, and tell them basically that their tailoring wasn't up to scratch for what I wanted, things went a little pear-shaped. In the end, I just walked out saying, thank you, I take this one, I hate it. It was much easier just to write off that bit of money. Kerry Newsome: There was actually kind of almost fisticuffs happening between the tailor and the shop owner. So, the shop owner was trying to be the mediator and her English was a lot better than the actual tail, the seamstress herself. But she was really starting to crack it. And yet, so the poor shop owner was going, like, I don't know what to do here. And Kelley's just going, I hate it. This isn't right. This isn't what I asked for. here's the picture, blah, blah, blah. So, we can't kind of say it was the perfect experience and we have been treated very differently with tailoring in Hoi An. But Hoi An, it is its superpower. Kelley McCarthy : It specializes in tailoring. Kerry Newsome: There is a tailor every corner. They're only shop fronts because the tailors are actually working from home and working in other places, but it is the mecca for tailoring. If you do have tailoring you want done, Like, we can't really put hand on heart and say, look, definitely get it done in Saigon. We would, you know, we kind of made this agreement before coming on the show and said, look, you know, it wouldn't be our go-to recommendation for tailoring. So, Saigon, sorry to say, we're not going to put you up there for tailoring. But you've got plenty of other streets to talk about. Kelley McCarthy : I feel the best way to describe it is in Hoi An, they are perfectionist. So, if you're not happy with something, they will tweak it, whether that takes one alteration or 10, till you walk out that store happy, where here in Saigon, it was more of a business transaction. Had I've got it right the first time and just accepted it, it would have been okay, but there was a lot more complexity to what I wanted. and it was more about the tailor herself, the seamstress, didn't want to undo what she had already done because it was in the too hard basket. Kerry Newsome: Yeah definitely and they really didn't care whether we walked out with a smile on our face or not. So it was a totally different experience and a bit disappointing and flavoured by the fact we had had such pleasurable experiences in Hoi An. So, we're a bit tainted, but we want you to have that knowledge when you're making these choices, when you're staying in these places. We just don't want you to come to Saigon and go, oh, well, I can get my tailoring done here, you know, you heard on the What About Vietnam podcast, it's fantastic. Well, we're just saying you might luck it, you might find that one, And it might all go absolutely fantastic, but Saigon to me is not known for tailoring. No. Okay, so moving right on, I'd like to kind of get stuck into food. Kelley McCarthy : Oh, my favourite topic. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, like I was going to put this section and kind of call it the foodie havens that we found, and we found a lot. We found a lot. So, I don't know which way to begin this, but we tried lots of cuisines. So, I'm going to start with just the overall parent subject of different cuisines. Don't think for a minute when you come to Vietnam and Saigon in particular that you're stuck with just Vietnamese. Not that that's a bad thing to be stuck with, but you can get Italian, Korean, Spanish, Kelley McCarthy: Japanese, Chinese, Indian, basically any cuisine you could imagine, you can get it here. Kerry Newsome : It was an interesting journey on the foodie trail for us. because we tried some really high-end restaurants, so we had very high expectations. They'd also been referred to us. So, we then tried probably what you'd classify as more your mid-range, and like, I don't know, Kelley, how do we say this? Kelley McCarthy : I feel as though some of those mid-range, presentation-wise and taste-wise, far exceeded some of the high-end restaurants. And the same as like we talk about in the shopping centres, some of those bistros in those shopping centres, because we have a very strong French influence here in Saigon, so presentation is an utmost thing for them. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, I mean we were walking along a street yesterday looking for a lunch place and Kelley walks into this kind of dodgy kind of alley and I'm going… Get down those alleys. Definitely, but like have you got a place in mind and she said well I think there's a few here I've tried one of them and we stumbled across this really old-worldly kind of French restaurant and just had the most delightful meal and felt like we were in mini France, like even like the furniture and the… It's like a bistro in Paris. It was, it really was and you know we went to places like Zumware and the one that we liked the most was the one at Social Complex. Kelley McCarthy : Social Complex it's called. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, but it's got about eight locations hasn't it? Kelley McCarthy : Yeah, eight locations in the city and this is on the ground floor on the corner. It's open from mid-morning right through to I think one, two o'clock in the morning. Not saying we didn't stop in there for our last coffee and cake at about 1.45 in the morning. Kerry Newsome : Absolutely, but previous to that Kelley had fallen in love with the salmon. Kelley McCarthy: They did an amazing salmon sashimi with a truffle vinaigrette and a small amount of caviar on top of the salmon. I think you get about eight pieces. I probably could have had about four plates, but did stop at one. Did stop at one because I needed to move along to the next food location. So, progressive dinners here are a delight. Just have a nibble at one, move along to the next. Don't commit to just one restaurant. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, I was a big fan of the roast duck with caviar and gold leaf. It was beautifully arranged. You might see it in some of the images I share on our social pages, so keep an eye out for that. But it was just, it was melt in your mouth, but just the flavours of the caviar with it. I would never have put those two together. But the presentation with the gold leaf was just, it just had that wow factor. And I think that's where we got to with trying some of the other high-end restaurants. It just didn't have that wow factor. Kelley McCarthy : It fell short in presentation as well. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, so you know we really love our Runam. Runam is very, very well known in Vietnam and it's a beautiful coffee shop. They're very nicely, the decoration, the whole layout, their food is reliably good and tasty. Best chicken wings you'll try anywhere. Yeah, and you love the salads as well. Yes, and they're great little salads. So definitely your runums. Kelley discovered this one called Miyama. Kelley McCarthy : That's a Japanese restaurant. I think it's level three. Kerry Newsome : Modern Tokyo restaurant. Kelley McCarthy : Yeah, that's in Saigon Center for all those people that are wanting lots of nibbles or even just beautiful. They do, once again, do beautiful salads. There's a great Italian restaurant called Basilica next door to it, which is also in Vincom Center. So, Kerry Newsome: Yeah, I had the clam chowder pie at Basilica and it was just to die for. And sometimes, you know, we talked about the fact that you can be trying so much Vietnamese food, you just want to then have something really hearty or you want to have something that's a bit more typical of home and that might be Italian or that might be a pizza or that might be You know, just something that reminds you of home. And I was really feeling like I wanted something really hearty. And that clam chowder pie, I thought, how are they going to do this? Are they really going to know how to do clam chowder in Vietnam? Oh, yeah. It was just to die for. So, we did explore, you know, some other places and we probably wouldn't be suggesting those for food but probably more for that moody bar, nice experience to have a lovely cocktail, you know, really lovely stuff and things like that, you know, like at Loon, like at Kaya San, beautiful, beautiful restaurants. So, you get the ambience of the restaurant but you might, you know, choose to do what Kelley was saying about the progressive style. You might want to go and have a cocktail at one place then move on and have, you know, a main meal somewhere else and you can really mix it up. Yeah. And I think that was the learning curve for us is don't feel settled to just stay and do everything in the one place because everything is close and everything is easy to access. Kelley McCarthy : And keeping in mind too, if you're in District 1 and you're wanting to go from one side of District 1 to the other, it's going to cost you only about $32,000 in a grab. So, you know, you can duck and weave to any restaurant that you see fit. So, that's like a couple of dollars to get in the cab and go to the next restaurant. And they don't mind serving one plate and then moving on to the next. It's not… Absolutely. Kerry Newsome : And I think, you know, this is where this city becomes a really great place for men and women. And I think, you know, families as well, you really get the opportunity to try such a variety of food. and get it or have it displayed to you or offered to you in the consumable way you want it. Like the restaurants are open for extensive hours, the menus are very extensive, they're very clearly laid out to what's in them. So a dish is going to tell you exactly what's in it. Usually the staff are pretty good with English so they're going to be able to have someone there to explain it to you if you can't see in the menu what it is. So, you know, if you are vegan or if you are gluten intolerant, you know, don't think coming to Vietnam is going to really dull down your experience of food options here. You're going to be able to find some. You might have to look a little bit further than us, but you definitely will find different options. We've seen them on all menus that we've Kelley McCarthy: The only thing I'd be fearful of would be people with such as a peanut allergy or something like that. As much as if they tell you they don't use peanuts or anything, just keep in mind the preparation is not necessarily going to be like home. I don't know that they're going to have that separate chopping board or that separate knife or anything like that for allergies. So just be wary of that. Bring your EpiPen if that's what you require. Just be really open-minded to that. Kerry Newsome : And also for those who have allergies to MSG, I think you're going to find MSG in most dishes. I checked with one of my guests, Tracy Lister , who has written some fabulous Vietnamese cookbooks and worked in some amazing restaurants and has her own restaurant actually back in Australia. She confirmed for me that really if there's a broth or a sauce or that kind of thing, MSG is going to be in it. If you are MSG intolerant, we would suggest you stick with fresh options that you see, you know, like you bought it out of the tub and it's fried or it's whatever so you can see how it's cooked. Kelley McCarthy : But that MSG makes it flavour. Flavour, flavour, flavour. Kerry Newsome : I'm with you, girl. Yeah, I hate to say that. Now, taking you further through Saigon and some different kind of experiences. Now, just another caveat here. We're not going to talk in this show about the main attractions, about, you know, the tourist attractions that everybody would see on a map of the to-do places for first-time visitors. You're going to get that through Vietnam tourism, Ho Chi Minh City tourism. And we do, we think they do that more than adequately. So, we want to take you to the, I don't know, off the beaten track kind of things. Now, we've talked about shopping and let me say I probably might have gone a wee bit overboard and did a bit of swap around, you know, I brought something then I didn't like it because I found something better and blah, blah, blah. So, we tracked down the idea that I would post some items back to Australia and we thought well let's make that a kind of part of our day and a few things to add to that. So, my experience at the post office was absolutely fantastic. So, I arrived with my bag, all kind of neatly packaged up as best I could to the counter and got greeted by this lovely guy who, apart from saying hello, giving us the forms and me filling them out as diligently as I could, was easy to do because they had English as well as Vietnamese. As I'm signing the paperwork, etc., he says, do you like pink? And I look down and I'm wearing a pink shirt and I've got pink fingernails. And I said, yes, I do. He goes, hmm, pink is good. Okay. And then I hand the parcel over and I've got to go to another counter to pay for the parcel to be sent back. And I said, so what happens now? You have the parcel? He said, yeah, I have the parcel now. My parcel. And off you go. And I go, oh, okay. And he goes, no, go over there, pay there, I look after, it's all good. I went, right, you have my parcel, right. Kelley McCarthy : He even provided a great little tip as we were filling in the paperwork for Kerry. Kerry was putting down values on it and he said to us, oh, no, no, must be under $200. If over $200, government want receipts. So keep a note, put in your value on that, keep it under $200 in total so that you can just get that parcel on the post and get it home. Kerry Newsome : Don't think about posting back really valuable items. are either sentimental to you or have a high end value. Like I don't think along those lines, I'm just really swapping out. Getting rid of the bulk. I'm getting rid of bulk and heavyweight things that I've changed up. So very close to the Central Post Office and it's cute. you know, we really, you know, had a quick walk around and did a few things. It's actually on the list of visit places for the city, so if you'd like to check that out, please do so. And you know now, you've got it in your back pocket, if you do do some shopping and go a bit crazy like me, you can, you know, backtrack yourself there on your way to the airport, get in there, ship it back home and it'll be home about two or three weeks. Kelley McCarthy: It was approximately $30 Australian per kilo. Yeah, so it's not super cheap. Yeah, but it would just be weighing it up as what your excess luggage would be, as whatever works best. Exactly. So if we give you that guide, that will be something that you can look at against your excess luggage. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, for sure. Now, so kind of a street and a bit over is what they call Book Street. Kelley McCarthy : Yeah, sort of just keep walking past the post office and it's on your right, sort of next lane way up. Kerry Newsome : Yes and I didn't think it would be as visible or distinctive but it is. It's got kind of a statue of some kind sort at the very beginning of it and then as you look through the statue you'll actually see the street sort of goes on. everywhere books everywhere but like not only just books there was arts and crafts there was books there was like gift cards it was just it was just And what? There was little coffee shops in there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it was just if you wanted to spend just an hour or so just off doing something a little bit different, maybe didn't bring something with you to read. There was English as well as Vietnamese. You had to dig a bit deeper for that. Kelley McCarthy : I think if you just ask, they usually give you the version in English too because they have it in quite a few languages. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, and some of your very old classics were there. So, I just loved it. I thought, you know, I could just meander here and pick little bits and pieces etc. to take back or to read later. So, I loved Book Street. I really thought it was a nice add-on. The other thing that Kelley's got me on to, which I think is a fun thing to do when you're wearing your white runners, shoe cleaning. Kel, talk to us about shoe cleaning. Kelley McCarthy : You will get this wherever you walk around in District 1, but mostly near Saigon Centre markets and Bentang markets. you'll be walking along you'll have some little man carrying a little wooden basket come up to you and he'll just point to your shoes generally what they're wanting to do is clean them and it's okay people take them off you the first time i did it i did watch him walk about 30 meters down the street to clean them thinking he's just taking my brand new sketches But no, he did come back with them. So they will give them a good clean. They generally take them away from you. And I think it's because of the dry cleaning fluid that they use on them, but they come back dry, spotless. The price for that for everybody is 50,000. So just to let you know, they start trying to sting you a little bit more. It is 50,000 dong. They may come back, try and sell you some inner soles for another 30,000 and you might need this and you might need that. Average is $50,000 for a clean and wherever we come back via Saigon, there's some great little local ladies selling beer for the men that want to sit down and have a beer across from the markets whilst the ladies shop. You can be sitting down there and then you will get your shoes clean. Kerry Newsome : How long does it take actually? Kelley McCarthy: Two or three minutes. two or three minutes to do yeah so this time i literally was walking down the street heading back to the hotel and the man grabbed me and said shoes and i said ah yes forgot perfect so i stood on the side of the pavement he did give me a pair of scuffs to put on but they would fit my big toe and so i sort of just stood there on top of them so i wasn't with bare feet on the pavement i was gonna say that pavement would be hot wouldn't it oh no it's not so much the heat it's more the color of the pavement. So I just stood there on top of the little shoes while he cleaned them for me and it was literally a couple of minutes. Paid him my $50,000, we both smiled at each other and off I went with clean white shoes again. Kerry Newsome : Love your work girl, love it. Yeah look these opportunities come up and you do sit there and you go will I, won't I, you know what's the risk factor here and that's why I hope you're loving our show because we're telling you as it is how it happens and look we can't hand on heart say, you know, when they take your sketches, they're not gonna run off into the hills, but you know, on average, that won't happen. So, you know, just use your sense and sensibility headset. Have a bit of a laugh with it. Have a bit of a laugh. What's the worst thing that can happen? They can run off with your sketches, you're gonna go and buy another pair down the street. So that's how we think about it, but like, we don't expect you to, but Kelley McCarthy: And be prepared to be touted if you're sitting down there while you're having a beer. You are going to be offered a bookmark, a magnet, a pair of sunnies, a fan, you know, some twisting, noisy toys, all sorts. So, in the end, my suggestion is make no eye contact. That's my best suggestion. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, and I think after the experience with the tailor, and I hate this, I think you've got that Kelley McCarthy : eye thing going down. You will see what I am thinking from my eyes. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, I'm totally with you. So then the other thing that is on our list of to-do's is to visit our partner Worldwide Hospital, the dental hospital that we have a partnership with. And Kelley's been going back and forth to this hospital for over 10 years. So she always includes a visit there to get her teeth cleaned or whatever. A bit of a check-up. A bit of a check-up. So, that was another visit and it was just great to see those people. The staff there are just so lovely, aren't they? Kelley McCarthy : They're like family. Kerry Newsome: They are. They are so nice to us. I don't get that feeling when I go to my dentist, unfortunately. Kelley McCarthy: Yeah, we do here. Yeah, so like I said, been going there for over 10 years, referred family, friends, even have taken my son there since he was four years old. And it's just like family, we get the hugs when we walk in. They do offer cosmetic surgery there, but I can't put hand on heart and say that I've done that yet. Keep an eye out, I have had a couple of quotes done this trip, so I may venture down that path to be able to refer it. Kerry Newsome: We just watched this space on that. There will be a whole show devoted to that if we go down that track. Kelley McCarthy : That's right, but dentistry I can honestly put my hand on my heart and refer them for any dental procedure. Generally when they give you a dental procedure they will probably give you a couple of options. But just keep in mind, whatever option they're giving you, they are confident in doing it. We referred a client a few years ago, they got two options. One was $40,000, one was something like $18,000. They chose not to go down the path because when they converted that to Australian dollars, it was quite close to what they were being offered in Australia. But the $18,000 option would have been suffice. And especially at the age group they were at. For example, I'll give you my scenario. I have had crowns done over most of my teeth. I have three teeth that are not crowned. I had gaps in my teeth, so I had bridging crowns done. The quote in Australia 10 years ago was $48,000. I came here to worldwide, it cost me $5,500. So, in Australian dollars. So, there's the comparison. 10 years down the track, I have had zero complications. I had one tooth that I cosmetically wasn't happy with. There was nothing wrong with it. But in one of my checkups, there was no problem for them to knock that out, replace it and put it in and they didn't charge me. So where do you get a lifetime guarantee in your home country for your dentistry? Like I said!!! Kerry Newsome : All the way. And, you know, we've formed a partnership with them because we have this confidence with their skills, their staff, their abilities. It's a hospital. It's not a shop front. It's not like a dentist off the street. It's a seven level dental hospital. so you know they choose yeah like they make everything you know on site so we've been through the rigours, and I’m terrified of dentists so this was a real big leap of faith for me uh but with Kelley because of her experience and the positivity that's come from that and you know she's shared this same experience with friends and relatives and we've got clients now going through and really loving the time and the workmanship that they put in, the care factor, everything. We can arrange travel, we're their travel partner and if you come through us we can actually give you a 5% discount off their advertised price. So you get it less by coming through us. Anyway, what have you got to lose? You could get a quote and while you're here, it's a short visit, reach out to us, we'll make the appointment for you or you can do it direct, we don't care. Kelley McCarthy : And make sure you mention us. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, to get that discount, to get that reference or get in touch and we'll send you a voucher. So yeah, just a thing to add to the mix of out and about in Vietnam. Now, once again, we really wanted to delve into the hair and beauty side of things. Oh my God. We have traversed this path before in the hair aspect. Now, we're blondes, both of us, right? So, for a starters, they look at us and their eyes roll because their version of blonde and our version of blonde may not be simpatico. Theirs is orange. Ours is blonde. And then there's the aspect of the moisture aspect of our hair and the volume, texture and product. So, you know, they may have different variations of the products that we may never heard of, but, you know, because they start with the word natural, Kelley McCarthy: Avoid natural ladies. Natural is not the go in Vietnam. Kerry Newsome : Not for us anyway. We have tried to go down that path and I have to say failed abysmally and ended up with tortured hair that took us weeks to repair. So it was a pleasure this time, Kelley had managed to find us a really clever dude who runs a salon and he's called Tommy's and Kelley over to you of that experience. Kelley McCarthy : Yeah so Tommy's is trained in the gentleman there that runs that he is actually trained in hair from Europe and from London and it's in the Grand Hotel Saigon level one you can reach out to him via Facebook We'll put all of those links on it. He knows anyone that's got blonde hair, he knows to take some moisture out, then he blow dries down the hair shaft, not up, so you don't look like you've had an electric shock. Very sweet, gives you cups of tea, water, cashew nuts to die for, and the experience. Not the cheapest, so probably similar to Australian prices for blow-dry, as in $40 to $50 Australian for the blow-dry, but this experience takes an hour and a half. So you lay down and get the shampoo, you get a massage, they even give you ears clean. So don't be offended by that when they shove the cotton buds in your ears. They're just giving your ears a little clean as well. And then you sit down for the blow dry. And like I said, I come out of there every time smiling with my hair done. And it lasts quite a few days. Kerry Newsome : And I might add, we have a wedding to go to in a few weeks, a Vietnamese wedding. And Kelley's going to go back to have a Up style done. So that's kind of the confidence level we've got, the kind of treatment that you can get from this guy and his staff. They're all lovely. It was just fully air-conditioned, extremely clean. I felt really comfortable. So yeah, we paid a little bit less than what we would pay at home. But it wasn't the cheap and cheerful. It wasn't with natural products. It was with good quality products. And I walked out with hair that I could… Because you're proud to walk down the street with? Kelley McCarthy : as opposed to our last experience? Kerry Newsome: I don't think I'm even game enough to share with you some of those photos. And I might add, they used some product which I was allergic to, so I turned into Elephant Man. And my whole face, so I couldn't get enough antihistamine, Panadol, whatever I could get down my throat to calm my system down because it just went berserk. And I ended up with a frizz ball of hair. Kelley McCarthy : to dry frisball that was expanding as it got drier they rinsed their hair and the natural to give you ladies an idea out there in lotus water so yes i'm talking about the cricket lotus the locust water which was black so i was terrified that i had blonde hair and i was getting black water put all over it so needless to say natural is out hit me with any chemical you can Kerry Newsome : And like, we're probably not the best advocates for natural wear. Other people would have no problem. So, don't write it off. Just take it from us. This is what our experience was and we're just sharing that with you. Now, I can't finish Hair and Beauty without the experience right up to last night that we had, where we found this beautiful place called Bliss Beauty . In District 1. In District 1, yeah. So, we're staying at the Silverland May at the moment, so it's very close by, about a block and a half. Kelley McCarthy : Yeah, not even that, sort of. And that's in the Japanese district, for those people that are wondering. Yeah, really sweet hotel. Yeah. Kerry Newsome : Anyway, so we stepped into that doorway because they were offering pedicures and eyelash Perming and they do do extensions and extensions and all the rest of it. The girl was lovely She had very good English So she was kind of your meet-and-greet person where everybody else in there couldn't speak much English but still talented in what they did and So I had the eyelash curling and the tint, yeah. It's a long process that, that was like 45 minutes was the time period, but just wrapped. The pedicure alone was fantastic, but that process to get that done, like this morning I'm looking and I'm going, you know what, I'm not going to need makeup on my eyes for the next few weeks, which is just going to be fantastic as I go further out and about in Vietnam. And yeah, I just thought the whole experience was good, don't you? Kelley McCarthy : It was amazing. I must admit for myself though, I did go to have the eyelash perming done and I did start to feel a reaction. So I did put up with it for five or ten minutes and then it was just starting to get too irritable. They were absolutely gorgeous. They removed the product, got it off, then blow-dried, washed my eyes, and didn't want to charge me for the process. Of course, I insisted on paying because they've opened their product, they've tried it, it's not their fault that that's happened. So, just that little bit of good karma back, I insisted on paying, which they were very taken back with that. Kerry Newsome: And he proceeded to give us a gift as we left the premises, which was a hair clip. And you just go, where would you get that back home? Kelley McCarthy: It's that smile, friendliness that gets you across the line. Kerry Newsome : I'm kind of conscious of time, Kelley, and my listeners, I know there's a lot in this, so I hope you are enjoying it. I just want to wrap up with a very quick overview of Saigon After Dark. I mean, Kelley and I aren't at that stage of our life where we're probably getting the full Monty of After Dark experiences in Saigon. But we definitely did venture out and I think we already covered with you the Ciocan where it's like a cigar cocktail bar. We would definitely suggest that for that experience. We mentioned the Zumwhere which we went for the salmon, we went for a cake, you know, like that was all through the night. We mentioned the acoustic bar. There is one in D3 and D2. D2, we think is a little bit more westernized. Kelley McCarthy : It's one… Yeah, international expat area. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, definitely. And I just think the theme of the music and the whole environment, they have one band on for the whole night. where D3 tends to be every three songs it's a different band on and many more artists. Still all very good and it's an absolute fun night. I mean these places don't charge you a door fee but you'll pay that a little bit more in your drinks so just be aware of that. Kelley can speak a bit more to Bui Vien Street more than me. Kel, do you want to just expand a bit on that? Kelley McCarthy : So, Bui Vien Street is worth a walk through, whether you go out at night, whether you want to hit the bars, whether you want to do anything, I think it's a great place just to go down. The lighting, the system of it all is worth a walk through. They call it the backpacker area and the backpacker drinks. Pricing is not of a backpacker's level. For example, a Tiger Beer in a bar along the main strip there, you can be paying $10 to $12 Australian for it. So, it's somewhere you probably wouldn't go to have lots of drinks and lose a bit of control. You want to have your wits about you a little bit. There could be pickpocketing going on down there, so make sure you hold on to everything. I took my 13-year-old through there and he just thought it was amazing. There's live music. Yes, there's some girls in clothes or lingerie or men in jeans with shirts off dancing on podiums out the front, but it's not offensive. It's just an experience. So, you could probably get into the seedy underside of it if you wanted to, but just for an experience to walk through, just the lighting and everything, it's amazing. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, I mean the only caveat I want to share on that one is just being careful with your drinks getting spiked and things like that for everyone. So just keep your wits about you, but yeah, definitely worth a wander through. I want to wrap up, if we can, just on a couple of travel tips , just some things to help you along the way that we think would be handy. I want to talk to you about getting a SIM card. Obviously having data when you're out and about, you'll definitely be able to get Wi-Fi As soon as you put your bum down pretty much anywhere, hotels, restaurants, cafes, beauty places, bars, everywhere, everyone's got Wi-Fi. It's basically a fairly unsecured option for you. So don't maybe look up your bank accounts in it, but you know you'll definitely be able to get your Google Maps and your grabs and everything. But if you want to get a SIM card, Kelley's got some really great advice for everyone on that. Kelley McCarthy : Yep, so generally one of the main ones here is Mobifone , so you can actually buy that I think at the airport, but if you go into Circle K, which is just like a little 7-Eleven or your little convenience store, you can get the SIM cards in those and they are really helpful. They will even put it in your phone for you and set it up. And then it runs for a month, what you purchase. So generally I would say to everybody, put a 100,000 dong on it. That's going to last you a fair while on it. But then as you need to top up, you can just go back in there, say to them you need to top this up. They will check your credit for you. They will show you how to put it on or they will even put it on for you. The tip for that though, I have had somebody travelling with me previously from America. She bought a burner phone from America, didn't work for her. So I think they need to be ensured that they're unlocked. That's an unlocked network phone that you can then just drop another SIM into. And yeah, like I said, we've got one here that we use and we swap it around if we're here. But for myself coming from Australia on a short stint, I just use the $10 a day option. That works well for me. Kerry Newsome : I think the SIM card comes in for people now that we've got the 90-day visa and we've got the multi-entry. You know, over three months and if you're moving around the country, as you know on the Out and About series for this trip for me, you know, I'm going to be in Vietnam and across a lot of out back, for want of a better word, locations coming up. Please stick with the show as we get around. I think the SIM card is definitely a good idea. Definitely. Because you do want that access so you don't get lost, you want Google Maps to understand. you know, it might say… Google Translate. Google Translate with your driver or, you know, just situations which over an extended stay. If you were going to do, you know, a week or a fortnight, well, you might weigh up the options to see what's easy. But the fact that you can top it up at Circle K, if it's an unlocked phone is the key, a mobile phone is the branch. So, I think just we wanted to make sure you got that. Using ATMs is the second thing I wanted to talk about. Now, I have traditionally used ATMs. I'm not really good on that devil of detail as far as every single transaction fee I get charged. However, I do mostly use credit cards in hotels and major shopping centers, etc. It's where I need cash. I try and limit it to getting as much cash out of the ATM as you can. Traditionally, that's around about 3 million. Some will only do 2, which is a real nuisance, but 3 is about the average. You can sometimes go up to 5. Best places to do that would be, you know, your Saigon centers or your Vincoms if you really want that. safety kind of thing. So, you've got to kind of get your head about you and going through DONG with lots of zeros, you can go through it quite quickly because remembering in Australian standards, a million DONG is about 66 Australian dollars at its worst case. So, like just to keep in mind having cash is really important in a lot of street stalls and very outback areas, where if you are in your major cities like Saigon and Hanoi and Hoi An and Da Nang, big cities, you will be able to use your cards fairly easy. Now the trap in using the ATMs, I'm definitely going to lead Kelley into that because she's been able to identify some things with fees. Kelley McCarthy: So if you're using an ATM, yes I'll give you a great exchange rate as Kerry's always said, however I did mention to her the other day just have a look on my card for my bank fees now go and look at yours. So this will vary from bank to bank but you are going to get charged for example I took out 5 million dong and I had a bank ATM fee, then I had an international transaction fee, and then I had a conversion fee. So to take out that five million dong, I got charged bank fees of about 17 to 18 Australian dollars. So it doesn't make it that great when you're doing that. So that's why we say maximize taking it out. Depends on convenience. In all my years of traveling here, I've always bought cash. But that's how comfortable you feel traveling with cash. You can get a great exchange rate for those in some of the jewelry stores and also all the gold shops. And there is a couple of money changes that are really competitive. In fact, they even give you a higher rate than XE, I've found. Kerry Newsome : You're a pretty good negotiator with those gold traders. Kelley McCarthy : And the other tip too, if you're changing $1,000 or something at a time and they've given you a rate, if you've got clean, crisp $50 or $100 notes from Australia or even from your own country, ask them is that the best rate they can give. They will usually increase it if you're doing a larger transaction too. Keep that in mind. My other tip is changing money cash in Saigon. You are going to get a far better exchange rate than what you will if you're changing money in Hoi An or Nha Trang or any of those other places. You get a far better exchange rate here. And sometimes in those other places, it gets a little hard to change cash too. So, Saigon's your spot when you're doing that. Absolutely. Or Hanoi, probably. Kerry Newsome : And as far as the ATM machines themselves, we suggest to avoid HSBC. They have a higher charge. They do. And be very careful when you're looking at the machine that it has the MasterCard or the Visa symbols. Kelley McCarthy : Or the Cirrus. Kerry Newsome: Yes. So that, you know, you're not trying to access it from a machine that, you know, isn't tied to your card or the network payment channel that is tied to yours. So if you've got a MasterCard, try and find the MasterCard symbols and keep it neat. Be very careful to make sure that you pull the card out of the machine. with a receipt. Sometimes you can get receipts and sometimes you don't. But I've got caught with that only once in Laos and it ate my card. Kelley McCarthy : And on that note, I would always suggest if you are relying on just using your card, make sure you have two forms of withdrawing money, whether it's from a credit card or an ATM card. For example, I got hacked the first day I landed here this trip. This trip. And I'll be honest, it's the first time in the 18 years I've been coming here I've ever had my credit card hacked in Vietnam. And who's to say it was Vietnam? You know, these companies sell numbers these days, so it could have been just a coincidence. So, I had to cancel that card immediately and then start using my ATM card if I needed money, which with that debit option now, it's just like a credit card, so it hasn't really been a problem. But make sure you've got two forms of withdrawing money. Kerry Newsome: Yes, definitely. I always travel with two cards. And you can actually look at different travel money cards. So, it's just for travel and you can put the currency of your own country on it. Very few of the travel money cards would carry Vietnamese dong, but certainly I put Australian dollars and then of course it gives me dong when I get here. So, I use that as a second backup should something like what happened with Kelley when she first arrived. Look, everyone, I hope you've got a lot out of this show. I know we've enjoyed exploring Saigon in the last few days and probably going a little bit deeper than I normally would. But also, I hope that you're going to stick with the show as we get further about. Kelley and I took the opportunity to go to Ho Tram, which is about a two-hour trip from Saigon. And that was really lovely. And we've got some fun to share with you on that coming up. And of course, I've got many other places in this whole series. So, please watch out for our social pages, WhatAboutVietnam, TikTok, social media, platforms like Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, all of the ones you normally use. And just thanks for supporting the program. Kelley McCarthy : Before we go Kerry, I just want to mention to everybody that please note we haven't been paid by any of our mentions today. It has all been funded out of our own back pockets and today I return back to Australia to take up my day job for my next return trip here. So, we aren't paid by any sponsors, but you know, feel free to drop some money if you really want us to come back and do some research for you. Just reach out to Kerry, see where that deposit can go, we're open to that too. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, I love your work Kelley, absolutely. We do this because we love this and we love this country and this country's been very good to both of us and we love what we do. Definitely. So, see you next time people and thanks again.

S5-E14 - Phong Nha. Family fun for everyone S5 - E14 - Phong Nha – The family fun destination with something for everyone Kerry Newsome : Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Today I'm going to be broaching a subject that seems to be coming up more and more for me as I'm working with travellers, new travellers in particular to Vietnam. And that's a growing trend around families travelling to Vietnam for their holidays. It's probably only come to the fore mostly in the last 12 to 18 months, but I do see a growing trend of Westerners really looking for a holiday destination where their kids can come and experience a different culture. They can discover and learn a little bit of history. And, you know, they can get distracted from their tablets and their devices and get their heads out of that. In particular, I've had some very encouraging feedback from some clients. you know, saying their kids, whilst they were a bit ambivalent about coming, they got here, they had a great time. And, you know, words like epic holiday and just the best time. We got to do things, you know, we never get to do at home. Even mum and dad did things that we just never thought that they would do. And one of the places that seems to grab that kind of experience and really highlight it is Phong Nha. And today I'm lucky to be joined by Ben Mitchell, who not only is a family man, but also runs the Phong Nha Farmstay, and on a daily basis is meeting and greeting families and helping them get a better understanding of the region and, you know, doing what he can and sharing his knowledge to help make their trip really worthwhile and really extra special. So I'd like to welcome Ben to the show. Ben Mitchell: Thanks Kerry Kerry Newsome: Okay, so for everybody, let's start with the basics, like when we talk about Vietnam and we talk about the main stops on a tourist map, where does Phong Nha sit in relation to that and what's the best way to get there? Ben Mitchell : Well, Phong Nha is located in northern central Vietnam. Pretty well halfway between Hoi An, another family favourite, and Hanoi, which is the hub of visiting all the different areas in the north. Kerry Newsome: Like for me, this trip, I decided to go to and then I came across by train. And that was a cinch. That was into Dong Hoi, then got picked up by car, and I'm here in like 35 minutes. So we know that we can get to Dong Hoi, which is the main city by air, it's a proper airport, so you can fly from Hanoi or you can fly from Saigon into Dong Hoi. train, the reunification train runs top to bottom, so you can pick that up in various places to come to Dong Hoi, once again, very easy and a comfortable train. Number three is private car, so that's an option. And I have done that for some of my travellers so that, you know, maybe they're a big family group or their family you know, is coming with a second family. So there's two families traveling together. So it might be more economic and more, you know, palatable to them to come by, you know, a small mini bus and that to get to here. But it's, while it's not on the tourist map, it's not that far off the tourist map. Would you agree? Ben Mitchell : Yeah, it is. Dong Hoi is our gateway, so we've got the airport there connecting us with Saigon and Hanoi. The train station, as you say, it's a good place to break the journey between the north and the central of Da Nang. It's 35 minutes with a private car from Dong Hoi station or airport out to us at Phong Nha. As far as those public transport ways of getting in and out, I would say the train and the plane are good. The buses, I'm not sure I'd put my family on the local buses or the overnight buses. They call them sleeper buses. It's a bit of an oxymoron. You don't get much sleep, but they are very cheap. And they are very convenient because, you know, getting from Ninh Binh or Hanoi to Phong Nha, they bring you straight in and out of here. The same with heading south. So cheap and convenient, but probably not the best way to do it. As far as getting south from here, a lot of the best things to see are in between these destinations of Phong Nha, Hue, Hue, Da Nang or Hoi Hoi An. So by getting a private car, you can actually visit some of these really cool places in between, which is not possible if you're on the train or the bus or obviously flying over the top. Kerry Newsome : I want to set up everybody. So when you're thinking about coming to Vietnam and you're wanting to know, plan out your trip, how many days you've got to spend. I just want to make sure that you consider this as a destination that you probably need to allow a few days to really take it in, to enjoy it at a pace. So I'm going to get Ben to talk a bit more about that. But ahead of that, I also want to talk to you about the safety angle. Now, a lot of people think about caving and they think about trekking and jungles and, you know, all of that kind of aspect of a place. They consider that, oh, they might have to have a level of fitness or health or, you know, all of that side of thing. I really don't want you to consider that or see that as a hindrance to come here. Sure, you're going to have to think about age groups and whether you can withstand certain levels of heat or you've got some levels of endurance, but you don't have to be a health freak or you don't have to be super fit to come here. There's all different levels of experience, but you also have to check out things like your travel insurance and things like that. Can you speak a little bit more to that, Ben, because that safety bit does come up a fair bit. Ben Mitchell : Yeah, there's the safety aspect of it with caving. And a lot of people sort of go, oh, caves? Oh, hang on. No, we won't be going there. We're about holidaying in Vietnam. We're not cavers. A lot of people go, cave? I've heard about that. It's $3,000. And it takes, like, multiple days to do. So we won't be going there. But Phong Nha does have a lot more to offer for the tourist, traveller, visitor, family travel. It has a lot more to offer than just coming here for caves. As far as safety goes, all of the different activities in the area to do with the National Park and the caving are heavily monitored by the government. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and I mean, like, you know, I'm going to take for granted that everybody that listens to my show has got really good level of common sense. So you're going to come equipped with, you know, hats, slip, slop and slap as far as sunscreens are concerned, maybe some bug spray, you know, like good walking shoes, you know, just making sure you've got comfortable gear to get around in to do these kind of things. But don't think you've got to do any pre-setup or pre-exercise or anything prep-wise to come and experience this because you're going to see all levels, all sizes, all age groups experiencing different aspects of the park, as Ben said, and also of the caves. And, you know, at my age, I certainly, you know, thought, you know, I better make sure I'm kind of at my best level of fitness, but I really found it very easy and we're going to talk more about that in a minute. What I do want to talk about and really pick Ben's brains about is the range of activities here. Because as he said before, it's not just about the caves. The caves is definitely its drawcard and it's certainly where Vietnam tourism painted and really put the focus on. But there's so much more. So Ben, let's kind of spread our wings here and talk about some of the broad range of activities that are available to families here. Ben Mitchell : Two things I'd say. One is that There's something here for everyone, no matter what your level of adventure is or your level of mobility. And the other thing is that Phong Nha really has what is the essence of the atmosphere of rural Vietnam. 15, 16 years ago, I used to love going to Hoi An and jumping on a bicycle and riding around through the delta behind Hoi An, through the rural countryside, all the farming and the little laneways and things. Over the years, that area has become very heavily developed nowadays and it's very different to what it was like back then, but coming here, it very much has that feeling of when you walk out the front of your homestay or your hotel or your farmstay or your accommodation, Yeah, you're in Vietnam, in rural Vietnam, and to walk out of the village even and around the village is quite a, or bicycling through the countryside to different locations like the Bong Lai Valley. You can soak up Vietnam. Everywhere you look, it's a photo opportunity of timeless Vietnam. As far as the caves and the National Park go, I wouldn't say to come here and just focus on getting to this cave and that cave, because often The best part of the whole day trip of getting out to these places is the actual trip itself. Getting around the area and looking at the scenery and learning about the history. It's got a lot more to offer than just we've got to get to this cave or that cave and then move on to the next part of Vietnam sort of thing. Kerry Newsome : And, you know, that, Ben, really was my experience as well. I mean, just getting on the back of a bike. Now, there might be a lot of people that say, oh, gee, you know, I wouldn't get on a motorbike. Well, Ben and I have had a bit of a laugh about this concept and around concerns around getting on the back of a motorbike here in Vietnam. Personally, I'm going to say I feel more confident on the back of an experienced rider, a Vietnamese rider who knows the lay of the land, who's a qualified rider and is employed by an established company. So, you know, you wouldn't want to put your fears ahead of that kind of experience. Because as Ben said, getting out and about on that bike, touring through all of those streets that lead through the paddy fields and, you know, you see those beautiful karst mountains and, you know, experience funny little boats that you take the bike on that floats you over to the other side. You ride across hanging bridges and You know, these are things, and this is where I think the kids get it, because they come back with, that was epic, because in their own countries, whether it's the US, whether it's the UK, whether it's Australia, that kind of opportunity is not going to happen in their everyday opportunity. They're not going to get that on the Gold Coast. They're not going to get that in New York City. They're not going to get that on those kinds of holidays. This is rural Vietnam and its rustic nature and its ability to facilitate these experiences for a family to do it together. And I'm talking mum, dad, grandparents, you know, right down to young children. I think collectively they all can get something out of it. So maybe Ben talked to us about, I don't know, the beginning of the duck stop, or I don't know, what's a duck stop? Ben Mitchell: There's an area called the Bong Lai Valley, and up that valley there's a series of community-based tourism places. One of them is called the Duck Stop, which in recent years has become very popular. It's a very unique attraction. People love it. Kids love it. Adults love it. Adolescents love it. Grandparents love it. Everyone loves it. It's huge. But what it basically is, is a local person who's by the name of Quinn, actually, and he's trained his ducks and he employs people to Training a duck, well there you go. Yeah, it's hard to explain. And everyone that goes there tells everyone to go there. But along that valley, that valley itself is a great day trip. You can buy farm-to-table lunches at local people's houses along the valley. You can ride around it by bicycle. You can go out there by a Phong Nha rider, by one of the local motorbike taxi riders. There's a place up the top of the valley where they've got what they call the Monkey Bridge and a big swing over a cliff. The Monkey Bridge is where you're challenged to ride a bicycle across a very narrow bridge over a pond. It's a fun day out, the Bong Lai Valley, full of community-based tourism. And with the community-based tourism, too, that relates back heavily to the way that you would see the National Park. I mean, you can book a National Park tour, or you can rent a car, or you can rent a scooter yourself and ride around the National Park if you're that way inclined. But probably one of the best ways to do it, and one of the things we're proudest of, is the hopping, as Kerry just said, hopping on the back of a local rider, Going to the Paradise Cave, the Botanical Gardens, which is a jungle tracking area and swimming area, going to historical sites like the Eight Lady Cave, going to the Moc Eco-Trail where the geysers come up from a cave system, geysers of cold water where you can swim in the jungle there. The Dark Cave, the Moc Nam, these different facilities around the park, different attractions, different places, can all be visited by, you know, renting a motorbike rider for the day. The motorbike riders that we deal with are local people from local households, so each motorbike that you rent is sort of a day's income for people. And it's quite inexpensive, really, from our side, from the Westerners' visitors' side. But for the local people, it's a great income. So it's a good support to the local community. And it also helps to justify your coming here, being able to support the local community. From a safety perspective with those community-based riders, community-based tourism workers, from a safety perspective of going with them, I personally wouldn't recommend it if I didn't believe in its safety, but that's my opinion. But to date, we've not really had any issues in the decade and a half we've been working with that. We do get some problems with tourists who rent bikes and ride themselves around the park. That's a fairly regular problem. People take a bit of skin off or they break a bone or something happens. I'm not a big fan of that but I am a very big promoter of going around the park with the local licensed riders who do it daily. These people used to be hunters, they used to be timber cutters, they are used to carrying loads on their motorbikes. But nowadays, rather than working in these unsustainable industries like timber cutting and hunting, they're working in tourism. Yeah, it's a great system. We work out with our guests based on what they're interested in, what they'll see for the day. We discuss that with the writers. We give the people a pod guide with some historical information on it. And away they go for the day. And they can visit the places that we suggested and worked out with them. And the riders take them around to all these places. And they go and wait in a hammock at most of the destinations. that the guests can take as long as they want. It's basically they're traveling at their own pace, doing their own thing. It's great for families. All the riders are well versed on and well aware that mothers like to be able to see all their kids for the whole way around. So yeah, it's a really good system. Kerry Newsome: I take your point on that because I think for me, when I'm talking to people and I'm recommending people to come to Phong Nha, I don't want them to come here being ignorant or clueless around, you know, how to get the best experience here. I mean, this is a bit of a plug for you, Ben, and certainly for Phong Nha Farmstay. I want to thank you for the support over the last few years in the What About Vietnam podcast and looking after, to me, this trip and sponsoring this show. It's been fantastic. But one of the things I love about what you and what Bic have created in the Farmstay is it's not just really great accommodation set in the middle of paddy fields with If you have a check on the website for this show, you're going to see some beautiful sunset photos that I grabbed the other night. But, you know, it's rural, but it's not rough. is the best way for me to say it. Because I think sometimes people think rule is definitely having to rough it and you don't have to do it that way. But one of the things I am really dead set about is about getting good advice, getting good information. And there is two ways to experience any destination for that matter, and that's going with a fixed tour. So that means you follow a group and you start at A and you finish at B and you have a set time and you literally have to, you know, follow the yellow brick road and the person with the flag. What Ben's talking about is being able to advise you around setting up your day the way you want it so that you can start when you want to, finish when you want to, and your drivers and your guides for the day, whatever that is, whether that is going to the caves as part of it, whether it's going out and mixing it up with maybe some kayaking, stopping at the duck stop on the way back, all of that can be kind of curated to your own needs, your own wants, your own party or your own group, your own family's desires for the day. If it's too hot, you can finish early. If you feel, you know, invigorated and you want to explore a bit more and you've got time, they can add it on. So you've got flexibility in that style. And that's probably something that Phong Nha Farmstay is definitely well known for. So if you come to Phong Nha and you want, you know, quality accommodation, but you also want really good advice around putting something together just for you, then it's the ideal place to do it. We talked a little bit before about how much time to allow that. And Ben and I were just discussing before coming on the show about slow travel. Maybe, Ben, you can speak to my listeners just a bit more about, you know, trying not to cram everything in. Ben Mitchell : Yeah, well, making the effort to come to Fongya, a little bit off the beaten path, I think it's worthwhile to try and give yourself at least three days. Now if you're traveling as a family and your kids are sort of eight years old and older, you can get a lot into two or three days. If you're traveling with smaller children, babies, toddlers, I think personally I'd be suggesting traveling Vietnam a bit slower, going to less destinations and spending more time at them. As far as visiting somewhere like Phong Nha with toddlers and a baby goes, I'd be aiming to do sort of one thing per day over four or five days. If you're staying with us at Phong NhaFarmstay, we've got some great common areas that are good for relaxing with the little ones. You've got The older ones can keep busy, you know, we've got bicycles, we've got village laneways and farmland all around us for exploring. Each morning at the farmstay we run a bit of a free tour at 7am where we go for a half hour walk around the village, learning about the village. Often I'll have family staying there and the mother and one child will do it one morning. and the father might do it another morning and there might be a child who never did it. Often two parents will come out and do the morning walk with me and leave the kids in bed. And other families, the whole family will go and that can be like for one morning. Then families can do what I suggest people do on their first day of sightseeing from the farmstay, is go to Phong NhaCave and they can either get a lift up there or they can get a bicycle and ride there. That's a great thing to do on their first day and it's a one thing, not a whole series of things. Going around the park, there's different places you can go to from Fongya Farmstay or from Fongya and you can visit just one thing each day with smaller children because to try and get too much in, as you know, they get tired and they get a bit… worn out and then everyone starts to have a bit of a miserable time. So you've got to get them back after they've done whatever they're doing for the day, have lunch somewhere different each day. There's a lot of different days you can do if you're traveling slower with smaller children. But I recommend families with children who are all sort of over eight and under 18, they can do three days in Phong Nha between the National Park, the Phong Nha Cave and the Bong Lai Valley. They would get three very full days in there. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and probably a good segue into managing a day or your stay here is also the aspect of food. You know, like I've got kids, I've got grandkids and food always features a big part of any stay. And I've had some concerns from parents who have come to me and said, oh, you know, I don't think my kids are going to eat Vietnamese. And I've said, well, that's okay, because there's all types of food that is available to them in Vietnam. Do you want to speak to that, Ben, just on the, you know, availability of food types here? Ben Mitchell: Yeah, well my wife and I have got a restaurant in town and a restaurant at the farmstay and we've, over the years we've learnt to put a menu together that is very much a Vietnamese menu but also offer some Western foods. Like, you know, with a family, there's often one kid and they won't eat anything unless it's white. It's pasta, it's potato, it's chicken, it's okay. Chips. Chips. But then, you know, but, and I mean, then there's everyone in between that level and we'll eat anything. So we've got a menu, our menu is structured to sort of suit a wide range, but Around Phong Nha we've got everything from an Indian restaurant to pizza restaurants to Vietnamese restaurants to very local restaurants. Restaurants that only sell snails and duck eggs. We've got all levels. Kerry Newsome : Okay, and I think for everyone, we've got chips covered. Ben Mitchell: Well, one thing I would mention too, we've got a very good vegan restaurant in Phong Nha which gets incredible reviews. Good to know. The Phong NhaVegan. Kerry Newsome: Ben, just talk us through, you're also a travel family man yourself and traveled overseas recently. Where would you place Phong Nhaas far as cost to travel here and to enjoy a stay for a family? How would you put it? Ben Mitchell: Well, looking again, two things. One, I would say value for cost. I mean, there is products here in Phong Nhathat cost $3,000 for a tour. all the way down to most accommodations will give you a free bicycle. As far as families go, a lot of businesses have got small bicycles and bicycle seats. So you've got all sorts of levels there of everything in between. We've got trekking tours, we've got national parks, seeing the national park. I mean, if you go around the park, it's going to cost you sort of $25 per person, $500,000 per person. to go around on a motorbike. Most of the other transport in the area is by bicycle or, you know, there's a lot of walking things you can do. It just depends, I suppose, on how much of a hurry you're in. If you come to Phong Nha and you've only got one day here, you're going to try and cram as much as you can in and it is going to cost more. The longer that you sort of plan your trip out to stay, The cheaper it'll be. As far as accommodation goes, there's everything here from very cheap homestays to more upmarket villas with private pools. Yeah, I think as far as value and cost goes, even you'd find the most expensive accommodations in the area are less than $200 for a private two-bedroom swimming pool villa with breakfast. So, you know, that's at the top end. It is a very cheap destination. Restaurants in the area are very, very good value for money, very cheap. It's a very competitive and new tourism destination and with high value for money, I would say. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, and that's kind of the ticket that I sell it as well is, you know, the level of experiences that you're going to have, the quality of food, the accommodation level is widespread. But, you know, in my country, to find a family accommodation set up for, you know, parents and three kids, et cetera, you know, there's no way you would get that for $200 for a night. And, you know, we're talking private pool and overlooking the paddy fields and breakfast, you know, included, like, yeah, I don't know of very many places that are offering that kind of value. But I think Ben's quite right also in saying that the activities can be as much or as little as you want. And if you've planned your time and, you know, if I'm arranging a trip, I'm going to be pushing that barrel as to, to try and allow you enough time to enjoy it at a pace that suits. Because one of the things that I do get back from travellers who get a little bit disappointed with Vietnam, and it's because time has been their enemy. They haven't allowed enough time to do things, so they're rushed and, you know, they're trying to fit everything in to make sure that they get to the airport on time to go to the next place. So for sure with Phong Nha and with your family and this sort of time that you can have together to have those experiences and you know I've got testimonials from people who have just said that just the level of confidence that their kids have got since coming to Phong Nha and having the experiences they had. has just gone through the roof, that, you know, it's opened up their thoughts and their minds to travelling more overseas to experience new cultures like nothing else has. So I really, I hope we've answered jointly, you know, any questions that you do have about this region. You can always reach out to Ben through the Phong Nga Farmstay or me directly and I can pass on. Happy to answer any questions if you come to me directly. Is there anything I didn't ask you Ben or anything we didn't cover that we should before we wrap up? Ben Mitchell : I'd go a little bit deeper into getting here and getting away. I think it's good. If you're traveling as a family, as you've said, it can be economical to go by private car over the public transport. And that would allow you to then visit sites around the DMZ, like the Vin Moc Tunnel system and the Ben Hai River Bridge. Staying overnight in Hue, I think is a benefit in that there's a great day trip between Hue and Hoi An as well for families. Visiting, you know, Hai Van Pass, waterfalls, cemeteries, tombs, historical sites. beautiful scenery, coastal scenery. So, you know, heading south or coming from the south into Phong Nha is a, you can turn the actual transit into a big part of the trip as well. Getting to the north is a bit more difficult. You know, it's really a jump. You've got to jump as far as Ninh Binh. There's nothing attracting people between Ninh Binh Hoi An, Ninh Binh, Hanoi and Phong Nha. But to the south, it's pretty action-packed all the way down as far as Hoi An over one or two days. As far as going all the way to Hoi An in one day, yeah, I think the train is an effective travel method there because You can get on the train, you can relax, walk around, enjoy it. If you get a private car straight from here to Hoi An, it is a long day in the car with the family. The kids tend to put them through hell and then they'll get you back. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, I was going to say, who's gone through hell? The kids or the parents. Yeah. I'm game enough to say that, you're not Ben. But my kids are far enough away from me to do that at the moment. Okay, Ben, great to have you on the show. I'm thoroughly enjoying my time here and I think you will too, as I said. Come back to us with any questions that you have and we'll see you on the next show of What About Vietnam? Ben Mitchell: Thanks very much, Kerry.

S5-E7-- The Rise of Unique Dining Experiences in Vietnam What About Vietnam – S5- E7 - The Rise of Unique Dining Experiences in Vietnam Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to What About Vietnam. So here we are folks, we're in the silly season. We're in December, Christmas not far away and as per usual we're all going a little bit crazy as we're trying to figure out we're going to have a holiday? How are we going to get together with friends and family? And we're thinking about Christmas dinner and food. So, I wanted to finish up the year with a show that would be speaking to, you know, some of the fun things that we can do with food. And in particular, I want to talk to you about where food culture, trends, where the vision of food is kind of heading in Vietnam. Because if you were to think about Vietnam in just the sense of street food, you would be seriously doing it a disservice because it has exploded in the last few years with new kinds of experiences and the flavors, the new chefs, the variety of mixing and matching with food and beverages. And I wanted a guest on the show that could really speak to that with authority. And I'm delighted to have Jovel Chan on the show. I want to tell you a bit about. Jovel comes with a very strong background in this area. In the last three years, She has been in Singapore as a food writer and blogger, consultant, culinary event organiser. But now she's really got her eyes set on Vietnam as she's based in Ho Chi Minh City. And certainly in the area of developing different cuisines and expanding the horizons, I guess, of experiences in restaurants with different chefs. That focus is primarily in Saigon and in Hanoi. In the last three years, she's actually been tracking the ins and outs of the industry, covering trends, you know, like new openings and happenings, and sharing them through her blog, chevellecharm.com. She became the first Vietnam food and beverage consultant for the Singapore tourism board, adding to an already stellar F&B client suite. She recently founded Saigon Social. Now that comes with some really clever and unique experiences. She's got the Saigon Supper Club, things like cocktail cinemas. And she's really into a very creative sense of connecting with people, sharing great food, sharing great beverages as well, you know, with different gins and craft beers and wine, etc. You're really in for a treat in this show. That's all I can say. It's just something that I think is going to really just put that extra spice of insight into the food scene and hopefully get you even more excited about your trip to Vietnam. Before we jump in, I wanted to just say a quick Merry Christmas and Happy New Year . This is actually the last show for the year. I'm taking a short break and I'll be back on your podcast channel early February . It's a break I really need to have. I've got, you know, lots of things I need to do. I've got a family that I want to have some downtime with and just all of those things are going to make it so that when I come back in 24, I'm refreshed and ready to go. And I have a really exciting plan for the shows next year. So I hope you'll stick with the podcast because there's lots of wonderful stuff happening. I hope you are going to have a wonderful Christmas yourselves. I really thank you for your support over the year. I hope you're enjoying the program. Please sing out if there is a subject matter or something in particular that you'd like to talk about. I'm always I'm always ears and I love to get your feedback. Anyway, I'm talking too much, taking up too much time on this. I want to introduce you to Chevelle. Let's welcome her to the program. Jovel Chan : Great to be here. Great to be here. Kerry Newsome : We've got a lot to talk about. So maybe if we can dive in really early and just get your take on where you think Vietnamese cuisine is heading? What can we expect to experience with cuisine in Vietnam in the future? And yeah, just give us a little look through that peephole to see what's ahead. What can we expect to find when we visit Vietnam? I know my travellers are going to want to know where to go, where to eat. Jovel Chan: I definitely believe that we are at just the start of seeing where Vietnam's dining scene can go. In the past few years post-pandemic, we did see a lot of chefs, both from Vietnam and also from overseas, come into Vietnam, notably Saigon and Hanoi, to set up shop and start catering to hungry tourists and also curious locals who are interested to experience differently and both of them are looking for something beyond just street food itself. I foresee with more five-star hotels also entering Vietnam. and a lot more malls that are also opening up in Vietnam, what you start to see is a very diverse dining scene of different kinds of cuisines, but also at the same time a lot more, a lot better quality. I think it's just a lot more refined and it's a lot more, for the lack of a better word, it's a lot better quality, better dining in terms of interiors, in terms of, you know, even the food itself and also down to service and yeah, the entire experience of dining out. Kerry Newsome : Now, I've heard you say, and I'm cheating here, I've heard you describe the food scene in three words. And I'll give you those three words back and you can maybe expand on them for our guests. So, the first one you mentioned was the dining scene is very hungry. So, describe for us what you mean by hungry. Jovel Chan: So I've been writing a monthly new openings guide in Saigon where I cover new restaurants for the past almost two years. And it's very safe to say that there has been no shortage of new restaurants entering the market even during the pandemic. And it's almost double or triple the rate that it was for obvious reasons during the pandemic versus now since. And this month, I just rallied up not just new restaurant openings, but I also started doing pop-ups, chef residencies and chef pop-ups. So what I mean by when they are hungry, it's really, first and foremost, everybody wants to open up a restaurant. There's so much talent that is happening, there's so many things that are happening. And it's not just opening a restaurant, it's just everybody also wants to come here and try to do something, you know, they're popping up, they're collaborating with each other. You've got chefs from abroad that are doing things here, there's always just something happening. And it's always new. So everybody wants a piece of the pie right now. Kerry Newsome: And that's what I mean by that's really interesting. And I can kind of see that myself, even between visits. I only, you know, like I visit three times a year at least. And even in that three, four months away, I come back and there's something new. There's that place that's just opened up around the corner where it wasn't there when I was there last trip. It's quite amazing. And as you say, it's in the decor, you know, it's in the actual you know, layout and design, the way the tables are set. I love the creativity that is also coming about, which is absolutely fabulous. And then, as you say, the chefs, the new chefs, homegrown chefs, too, that are coming through. So, it's really exciting. You've got another word that you use to describe, and I'd like you to expand on that one, and that's defiant. I love that word, defiant. Jovel Chan: That's your favourite word, isn't it? Kerry Newsome : Maybe I kind of align myself to that. Jovel Chan: So, yeah, so rightfully so, like what I mentioned, the industries also, the chefs themselves are very defiant. So, you know, what we see as creativity to them is kind of like, you know, they're trying to take back something, right? So, I think a lot of them, they don't want to be defined by Vietnamese cuisine. Ironically, but they don't want whatever people think about them to just be limited to banh mi and pho. Because to so many of these homegrown chefs, Vietnamese cuisine and ingredients are able to compete with the likes of cuisine in Japan, of ingredients in Japan, where people treat Japanese cuisine as a premium cuisine. So to many of them, you can hear them say, you know, the number of hours that we take to make pho and what goes behind making a simple bowl of pho like this is the same as making a bowl of ramen, yet nobody is giving us the same credit or willing to pay what people pay for ramen in Japan. So there is this defiance and this is fueling a lot of chefs behind these finer dining kitchens to showcase and storytell about Vietnamese cuisine. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, and I think it's we do need to be careful about stereotyping Vietnamese food. I mean, I even get asked, you know, like, what happens if when I go to Vietnam, I don't like Vietnamese food? And it's like, well, there's, it's a multicultural city that you're visiting. So, you can get any cuisine in the world from pizza to you know, to Greek, to Italian, to whatever. So, you know, don't think of Vietnamese, as you say, just limited to what you know at this point. You know, keep an open mind, coming to the country and, you know, be open to try these new restaurants with these different fusions of flavors and just experiment with the new dining scene. I think that's what's key for people is to experiment. Because you talk about, you know, in your third word, which is nascent, you know, I mean, that deserves definite explanation. Jovel Chan: So Vietnam's dining scene really, really I would say picked up in the last number of years. This isn't to say that there weren't restaurants before, of course there were restaurants before, but dining as a culture in Vietnam with more than just maybe a burger joint or you know the Park Hyatt Saigon and and the ubiquity of it now, and the price that it's now accessible at. I was just writing an article yesterday where 10 to 15 restaurants on it were in the range of 300 to 500k. That's less than $20. So you now have these chefs who are coming in and doing such great things and serving up food where people can enjoy at 300, 500k. It's still a lot higher, but it's a lot less. Before you had dining where it was 2 million. Now it's becoming a lot more affordable and it's a lot more accessible, right? And that's what I mean by the dining scene is it has just really started in the past number of years where people are actually dining out and there is a dining out culture. where people are able to start going out maybe even twice a month and that's something that's within their means. But this only really started in the past two years or three years or so after the pandemic fueled by the likes of the Michelin. So that's what I mean by it's really, really nice and everything is so new and yeah, so much room for opportunity. It's a really exciting time to see where everything goes. Kerry Newsome: Yes. And so, you know, if you are a foodie and you're looking at, you know, your time in Vietnam and best places to go. Now we're talking about dining scenes that are primarily focused in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City, aren't we? Which would you say would be the one, if you were a real foodie, to focus on? It's a tough one. Oh my gosh. Jovel Chan: I can't say this in public. Kerry Newsome: I can't say this in public. It's a hard one, I know. I really know it. But people say, oh, if we're into food, should we go, should we spend more time in Ho Chi Minh City or should we spend more time in Hanoi? And I find it hard to answer that question myself. You know, and while I can say to them that, you know, the cuisine in the North traditionally is very different to the South. You know, those, even those flavors have started to, you know, meld a little bit because, you know, people that are opening up restaurants in the North are opening the same ones in the South and, you know, vice versa. So, there isn't quite that division in the new and upcoming, certainly in traditional, there probably is more definition. But yeah, like, what do I say? Help me out! Jovel Chan: I definitely enjoy, you know, food from all the cities, but Hanoi, eating on the streets, but in Saigon, dining out. And if it were up to me and I had five days, I would spend perhaps a day or two in Hanoi and then come down to Saigon and contrast it, yet see those similarities between what you see from, you know, the traditional street food freight, street food favorites up in the north and then come back down with the understanding and the grasp of what it is to Saigon and check out some of the bars and restaurants and what people are doing here. A lot of what I see in Saigon, even on the street food, is that there's a lot of them that are also adjusting to cater to the younger people here, to the experts here. So some of the banh mi here, you see a lot more banh mi kebab here, you see a lot more innovation even on the street food. So I think heading to the north, get your fix, come down here and see how that's kind of evolving and moving a little bit. For a foodie, I think that's definitely like, you know, you can run the gamut from everything that's traditional and see how that moves and changes with Vietnam's growth. Kerry Newsome: That's a really good answer. I'm going to use that one . No, it's a really good way to explain it because I think there's some novelty factors still very present with the new traveler to Vietnam and sometimes, you know, the new traveler to Southeast Asia to experience street food, to sit on the little red chairs, to sit where, you know, the average local person is having, you know, a meal. with their family and, you know, doing some beers, celebrating with family, that sort of thing. So there's a really nice feeling about that and I think people are very keen to do that. But then, like you, I can go from that, and then I'm really keen to explore the wider circle of other restaurants and other cuisines. And as I said, their decor, they're really wonderful ways that they can use color and art and, you know, their designing is just fantastic. And I really, I like that ambience, you know, that way that a restaurant can make you feel like I really want to hang about here. I want to stay here. You know, I want to have another glass of wine and I want to have, I want to try that other thing on the menu that we didn't start with, you know, that kind of thing. You really want to invest your time and stay. So, in that vein, talk to us about some of the latest trends coming through that you're seeing now, you know, especially since the Michelin guides come out, that sort of thing. So, what are the really big trends coming through? Jovel Chan : Modern Vietnamese cuisine is very, very, very popular. Around Southeast Asia, there's a boom of Southeast Asian cuisine and chefs at the helm. And there's a much larger spotlight that's being placed on Southeast Asian cuisine and chefs themselves. So that's something that's also being reflected here in Vietnam. And when the Michelin came in, we saw three out of four of those one-star restaurants being awarded to modern Vietnamese and Vietnamese restaurants. So the narrative became one of going global by going home. Kerry Newsome: That's interesting. Going global. Yes. Jovel Chan: We saw a lot by going home. We saw that people, there was almost like, there was almost a, it's not favoritism, but a curiosity amongst people in the region as well as overseas who naturally want to come to a country and try what the modern version of that local cuisine was. And when they saw that awards were being awarded for such cuisine over perhaps some of the other cuisines, naturally, right? A lot of the restaurants had that signal to become, OK, I need to be more Vietnamese or I need to be modern Vietnamese. So even a lot of these perhaps traditionally French or modern French restaurants And the likes started playing around with, hey, we now use Vietnamese ingredients. Hey, we start, you know, a little bit, you know, playing on that Vietnamese card a little bit more. So because of that, we did see this year more than, you know, almost 10 new modern Vietnamese restaurants open. And we saw a little move even from those quintessentially Western restaurants into using Vietnamese ingredients. So that's a trend that I did see particularly this year. And I know that we will continue to see this trend for the next number of years because of these global movements. But also at the same time, like I said, Vietnamese people are very prideful in their cuisine. I don't see many Vietnamese chefs coming out and trying to do something else. Kerry Newsome: Perhaps not by choice. That's interesting. Very interesting. So, if we were to start looking at making suggestions to people about special experiences with food, And this is kind of going to be a little segue into what you do as a main theme. But like food, as you say, is becoming an experience to experience that restaurant, to experience that food. I'm seeing a lot more of the combination with you know, fine dining and then alcohol or, you know, different kind of combinations of that pairing where that was never kind of an option before, even just before COVID really. So, you know, can you talk to us about some of the experiences that are now coming through that people are getting excited about? Jovel Chan: So like I said, there are a lot more pop-ups and a lot more events that are happening this year. In the alcohol industry in Vietnam, we also had a gin festival for the first time a couple of years ago. We had a whiskey festival for the first time last year. So we're getting a lot more of this food and drink driven events and pop-ups that people can discover. A lot more restaurants are also going in the way of more fun dining than fine dining. So that's another trend that we see happening a lot more as well, fun dining. Kerry Newsome : And that's what I'm keen to talk about. Jovel Chan: Yeah. Fun dining is injecting an element of social and also it's just injecting elements of, yeah, mostly social and fun into the traditionally more stuffy, you know, concept of dining out. right? And the reason why that's taking off here in Vietnam, I mean, first and foremost, it's very much a global trend. I think the new generation of, you know, travelers, you know, with millennials or even Gen Z, they're going to high-end restaurants and going to your traditional like Ritz Carlton and stuff, it's not something that is really appealing to them anymore, right? Which is why hotels are also changing. Now you have younger and cooler brands, like the edition and the like, right? So the hotel industry moved towards something like that because they could see that these big name brands did not appeal to the next generation anymore. Exactly. But in the same way, fine dining and sitting down on the white cloth and having that table side service just isn't what that same generation is looking for anymore. They want to be at the chef's counter, seeing the fire, interacting with people and having these exclusive experiences that meant a lot more for them. It wasn't about going to these really stuffy brands anymore and saying that they were there. They wanted to be one of the only few people to have this really cool thing that was happening and experiencing that with their friends, perhaps in a private setting. So that's what we're seeing, and that's the fun dining aspect. And that's what also inspired me to create these experiences. Because personally, as somebody who writes about the industry and get invited to many of these events, a lot of these events were very stuffy for me. It was always a steak and wine dinner, and I would have to sit down for four hours and drink wine next to people I didn't know. And I didn't want to do that, right? And I saw that those were the only things that were kind of happening in Ho Chi Minh City and Vietnam. So I said, hey, you know what? There are just better ways to experience food that are more fun. but still achieve the objective of trying and experiencing this new wine and dining out with people. And so I created these experiences just to almost show the industry that there are just other ways to do things. And consumers would much prefer to attend such things. So we started doing that under this brand name called Saigon Supper Club. and bringing people together. And six months later, we've done about 10 dinners and dined at least 200 people. Kerry Newsome: And I think that that's clever. I think that you doing this in a social sense is really key because I think some of the the experience is like, I'll use the restaurant called, I think it's called Noir, the one that you go to in Ho Chi Minh City, where you actually dine in the dark. Like, you're totally in the dark. And funnily enough, a friend of mine went, and I wasn't able to go on the night, but she came back and she said, you know, out of the 10 courses that I ate in the dark, I couldn't even pick the whole 10 correctly. I only picked two out of the 10 dishes. correctly for the experience. And she absolutely loved about it. So, it wasn't just the food that was a great experience and fun. It was the fact that, you know, every other sense in her body was being tested to figure out the texture and the taste and, you know, what the smells were and things like that to try and figure out what that dish was. So, you know, I think that was one of the first examples I had of moving away from traditional stuffy type environments where, you know, you are just having one experience, which is just that set meal, to adding on another layer of the experience to have fun and guessing and things like that. And I see what you're doing with the supper club is where you're getting a mix of, you know, expats, some locals, some tourists, you know, curious people, you know, of all areas, regions who are coming in, who can get to meet other people. Because, you know, travel is about meeting people as well. And I think this is another lovely way to do it. So I'm really keen to hear more about that. Before we just jump into that, I'd like to, because my my listening audience, and I'm talking to you guys out there now, when you do come to Vietnam and you're going to be coming into the two major cities we're talking about, Ho Chi Minh City and Hanoi. And people do, I know you ask, how long should I allow to stay in these places? Now, that's another interesting question to answer because if you do want to start enjoying the food culture and the food experiences, you'd need a few days to do it because you can't kind of gobble it all down in one day or probably even two days. So, you might need to allow, you know, some extra time in Ho Chi Minh City and Hanoi to take advantage of these other aspects of enjoying Vietnamese food and the dining scene as we're seeing and talking about it now. So, if you were to look at… Let's do Hanoi first. If you were to pick a… Say, okay, Jovel, I'm coming into Hanoi, you know, I'm bringing my family, you know, we're really looking for a really nice restaurant, you know, we eat everything. So just, you know, where should we head to? Just give us a few and we'll check and see, you know, if we can get a booking and that sort of thing. So maybe, I went through your website, I found it very hard to pick which street. Jovel Chan : So, I think one of my definitely favorite restaurants is a restaurant called Gia. Kerry Newsome : Yes, I've seen that. That's Hanoi. Yeah. Jovel Chan: Yeah, so Gia is it truly is one like so this year it got one star but I visited them back in 2021 when it first opened and I knew that it was already something that was very very special because it does modern Vietnamese But the way they do it is really by… So in a lot of modern Vietnamese restaurants, a lot of the techniques are very much still very Western techniques. Kerry Newsome : But with a Vietnamese spin. Jovel Chan : A lot of the techniques are recognizably and distinctively Western, but perhaps the flavor, right? They've used Vietnamese herbs and spices. So in some of the modern Vietnamese restaurants, you can still see a beef tartare, which is very much from a French dish, right? But they'll use a Vietnamese quail egg. But in Zia, it is very distinctly Vietnamese. It's almost like imperial Vietnamese cuisine. It feels like that. Nothing really feels like it's from the West. It's just a pure elevation of everything that you've had in Vietnam, done in a way that is very noticeable in Asian and Vietnamese. And I think that's why it's so, so special. Kerry Newsome : Okay, so that's Gia in Hanoi. So what's the second one? Jovel Chan: Yeah, so Los Fuegos is a restaurant and it is a Brazilian steakhouse. I know it's very ironic, but it's from a guy and he is from South America and he spent quite a bit of time in Australia herding cattle. So he really knows his meat. And it's this really quaint little outdoor steakhouse space. And we have a very private area at the back where he has handcrafted this entire barbecue from scratch. So he's made it out of pure love. And it's such a nice little quaint space. And you go in there, and it's gorgeous, gorgeous meat and very, very well done. And more importantly, it has certain ingredients that are not particularly legal in Vietnam. And I don't mean anything, you know, like, too, too, too off the record, but they have like, you know, brain and certain, you know, innards, certain ingredients, you know, for some reason is banned. It's not allowed in Vietnam that he has it, which is a very traditional part of the cuisine. So I really appreciate going there and having that. And number three? Number three has to be, I think the cafes there are really, really, really good. I definitely enjoy the cafes there a lot. So if I had to pick number three, I would choose a cafe. Kerry Newsome : Yeah, but there's so many of them. I mean, I like some of the very well-known, even the Runam. I love the Runam. They are so quaint. Jovel Chan: Oh. Okay, so it has to be a restaurant. Oh, this is tricky then. Okay, I think one of my favourite restaurants in Hanoi then has to be, I think Labrie. Labrie is really good. L-A-B-R-I. Bistro. Kerry Newsome: So it's cafe, bistro, that kind, is it? Jovel Chan : Labri is dining. I've heard really good things about Chapter and Dung, but I've not been yet to be very honest. But I've been to Labri and I thought it was really good. Kerry Newsome: Let's move on to Ho Chi Minh City. Number one for Ho Chi Minh. Jovel Chan : Ho Chi Minh City. Kerry Newsome: This is very, very hot question to ask. When I get asked that question, I actually picked one of the Michelin star restaurants and that's Anan. Anan is, has never let me down, like seriously, anyone I send there just comes away with that many photos about food, even people that never take photos of food before, all of a sudden they're sending me photos of food from Anan, it's outstanding. Jovel Chan: Yeah. And then he just opened up a smaller, not a smaller, but a sister concept in the same building on the third floor. Oh, really? Kerry Newsome : Okay. I must check that out when I'm there. Jovel Chan : Yeah. So it's in the same building. It's got one by far, molecular far. So, you know, another place to stand. Excellent. All right. As for me, If ever the day Anan becomes really full and you need an alternative to send your guests to, my go-to modern Vietnamese restaurant is An's, a place called An's, A-N apostrophe S. N apostrophe S, that's conveniently. I know. So interestingly, An's is helmed by the ex-right hand of Peter, Kerry Newsome : Right, so a breakaway. Jovel Chan: Yeah, it's a breakaway, but the food is very different, I would say. Okay. Very different, but it's still very much modern Vietnamese. Yeah, with a chef counter and everything, it's a lot more quaint and less, I would say, creative and playful with the molecular and the one bite, but in the same vein as Zia Hanoi, it really elevates it from the core of Vietnamese cuisine. So it retains the sanctity of it a lot stronger. Kerry Newsome : The only other restaurant I have been in this sort of league, if for want of a better word, was A by Tung. That 20 degustation, oh my God, that was just outstanding. Jovel Chan : That's a really good one. Kerry Newsome : Oh my God, I was just in awe. I was totally in awe by that restaurant, but it's very expensive, but it's absolutely outstanding. So if you had a third, what would you pick for your third? Jovel Chan : A third restaurant in Saigon. I would say, oof, wish I had more time. I think for some, I always think, the place I always bring a lot of people to is Moi. I bring a lot of people to Moi, Moi Craft Sake, which opened up a year ago. Sorry, is that M-O-R-E? And M-U-A. Kerry Newsome : M-U-A, mm-hmm. Jovel Chan: Yeah, mùa is the word for seasons in Vietnamese. And the chef is a very, very talented chef that opened up the restaurant first in Hội An by the rice fields and everything. It's a very gorgeous restaurant. And then opened up mùa kraft sake, which is a lot more of like You know, it's very casual. It's like a hundred seat space in District 3 and you'll see a lot of people there drinking beer and craft sake. And this craft sake is made from Vietnamese rice and it's Vietnam's first sake. And it's actually really well done. So this chef, he loves Japanese cuisine and spent some time there. And he came back and created a menu that really nicely married Vietnamese and Japanese cuisine together. You've got that izakaya and you've got that street niao culture of eating and drinking in Vietnam. put put them together and pet it with beer, local beers and local craft sake together. So any point of time you go there, it's really busy. Energy and everything is really affordable. It's like, you know, that's in the 300 400 Raj telling you about So I bring everybody there just for like a good dinner so that they can still see what like Vietnamese cuisine can be beyond just street food, but at the same time, try things like they've got the tasting flights for Vietnamese sake. And yeah, it's always a good time. Kerry Newsome : Jovel, is there any particular sort of cuisines influencing other cuisines? Like we've talked about Vietnamese cuisine influencing some Western cultures, but is there some other cultures that are influencing Vietnamese? Like, is there some Japanese influence into Vietnamese? Is there, you know, some Korean influence into Vietnamese food? Is that coming the other way, working the other way back? Jovel Chan: I think Vietnamese cuisine in particular is very influenced from First and foremost, it was a country that was colonized its entire life, right? Vietnam was just continuously colonized by the French, obviously, you can see in the food, by the Chinese. And then you had a lot of people migrate out of Vietnam. They left to Europe and they left all over the world, the US and Australia. So when we come back and see Vietnamese cuisine, which is why I love looking at the dining scene, it's because when you see a lot of these restaurants, and depending on where the chef is from, most of the chefs, at least a year ago, don't spend time in Europe. So his food is Nordic. He calls it Nordic Vietnamese cuisine, right? Peter came from the States, Anan Saigon. You have a lot of these chefs, and depending on where they're coming from, it's influencing Vietnamese cuisine. And it's so interesting to tell people when you look at the cuisine itself, it's almost like a history story. Like you can tell exactly why. If you go to Ngo's restaurant in District 3, he spent time in Indonesia and Australia. So his modern Vietnamese cuisine and what he does is very different to what a lot of other chefs do. But everything, I went to a Vietnamese, a modern Vietnamese restaurant back in Singapore, and the chef went to the US and spent a lot of time working in Mexican restaurants. The food that came out was also very different, but still very uniquely Vietnamese. So when we look at Vietnamese cuisine, especially modern Vietnamese cuisine, those that are helmed by the second generation, like overseas chefs, right? grew up abroad and had to create and adapt to Vietnamese cuisine in that country, that also tastes different to whatever is from Vietnam. So there's a lot of these things. And that's why seeing the dining scene here, as compared to other countries in Southeast Asia or any other country, is very, very much reflective of that massive diaspora and in the 80s when everybody just left. Kerry Newsome: Our show is actually going to be the last show for 2023. So really, really… Oh my goodness. You are a Christmas gift, Jovel, all wrapped up in tasty food ideas. See, that's why I thought this was perfect, absolutely perfect. So, and I have so many travelers coming over for Christmas and New Year and then coming for TET and things like that. So, if we are to talk about, and I want us to explain, help me out here, I want us to explain just how Vietnam celebrates these Western culture events like Christmas because obviously Vietnam is not necessarily, it's a Buddhist predominant country. So, whilst it goes nuts in Saigon with Christmas decorations and Christmas fair, it's kind of still hard to isolate. What does Vietnam do for Christmas? You know, where do I, where do I book, you know, a Christmas dinner or a Christmas lunch or, yeah, can you help me out there? I really need some suggestions for Christmas fair and then New Year's Eve. What, where do people go for that? And then we're going to finish off and talk everything about that Saigon Supper Club because I think that sounds fabulous. I want to join. Jovel Chan: That's all right. Thank you. So let's start talking about Christmas. So Christmas in Vietnam, if you're traveling to Vietnam for Christmas, you've definitely got no shortage of options, especially in the hotels. All the hotels will do some set menu. A lot of them will also do your Christmas brunch. and a number of restaurants here and there, but in terms of a Christmas market or Christmas festival, there isn't something that exists here on a grand scale. You have the neighbourhood Christmas markets, which are a showcase of local artisans and brands that come to the fore, that are usually hosted by individual restaurants, like let's say Luzin, and stuff like that. There are small little pockets of Christmas markets, and I believe if you go along Nguyen Hue Street, you can see a couple of lights and a few baskets doing here and there. But if you're looking for a full-on Christmas outfit like in Europe, then you're definitely not going to see that here. Kerry Newsome: It's more the neon lights. Jovel Chan : But that's not just anywhere. Yeah, it's more the neon lights and, you know, the wiener house, Christmas music that comes on. And of course, it's always a party that follows after. So we saw that with more of the Western holidays here in Vietnam, like, you know, Halloween, let's say, or the like, are big reasons to throw a party. So, you know, head for dinner at perhaps, you know, one of the restaurants or a Christmas brunch to get that festive spirit. And then thereafter, you know, definitely I'm sure the bar scene will take that over a lot stronger than let's say the dining room. Kerry Newsome : And then New Year's Eve, is there any good spots for New Year's Eve? Jovel Chan : So New Year's Eve, similarly with Christmas, you'll see a lot of hotels during New Year's Eve. Mainly hotels, especially for brunch. A lot of restaurants don't necessarily do a New Year's Eve brunch, they'll do a set menu. Yeah, because, you know, wastage and costs and if you want people to work on these public holidays, you would pay them three times as much. At that point of time, I think a lot of the restaurants are like, hey, you know what, we probably won't get that many people because, you know, we've got our own festivities or perhaps they're not in Vietnam celebrating. So why do we want to do a brunch? So it's usually for the hotels to take over. Kerry Newsome : I have a prediction. I reckon in the next few years they'll be doing more around Christmas and Christmas lunches because the Westerners are coming and they've got to have Christmas lunch or dinner somewhere. And obviously places that cater to that are going to be in high demand. Jovel, let's finish up and I'd really like to throw it to you now to talk about what you're doing with the Saigon Supper Club, you know, just your passion behind it. I'm really keen to, because it's new and it sounds fabulous. So, over to you. Jovel Chan: Oh, thank you. So Saigon Supper Club are basically dinner experiences where people come. It's very much a food but also social experience where we host groups of 10 to 15 people in very unique spaces. So we've done ones on rooftops, we've done ones in farmhouses, we've done ones in wine cellars. And in the same vein as fun dining, it's to make dining fun. And we also bring people such as the bartenders and the chefs and they also all get involved to interact with the people and the diners and also showcase at the same time modern Vietnamese cuisine and also other products such as craft gin. We've done rum before, we've done chocolate pairing. So in this one little dinner, you get to really interact with a lot of things that allow you to also indulge in the food culture that is super new in Vietnam, right? The dining scene here. So that's what we've been doing with Saigon Supper Club. And we're in the midst of launching new experiences. We're doing Cocktail Cinema Club, where it's basically outdoor cinema experiences where we bring in our food and beverage partners. And what we're trying to do here in Vietnam is to create occasions for people to enjoy food and drink. Right now, you can only experience it within the four walls of a restaurant. But that's not how you should be enjoying or learning how to dine. or how to enjoy food just within the four walls of the restaurant. So we need to create these events and festivals and make it fun and attract people by coming out to do something new and novel, like an outdoor cinema on the rooftop in the middle of District 1. And through there, be like, hey, you know what? Here's a glass of wine. And get them to try new things in this manner. Otherwise, it will just always be stuffy. Otherwise, for the first time, people are trying wine and it's in a restaurant in perhaps a way that they can't afford it. So that's what we want to do. We want to make dining and drinking and going out and experiencing food very fun. That's why it was also the inspiration to create a lot of these events and experiences to just encourage people to come out, meet other like-minded people and build habits that encourage them to take the second step and make dining in Vietnam a lot more sustainable beyond just something stuffy like steak and wine. We're launching our first cocktail cinema In Christmas time, we're showing Love Actually. We managed to get it with subtitles, fully licensed. And we have an audio solution provider that allows people to just watch the movie with their own AirPods or earphones, you know, no crazy sound systems and stuff. So it's going to be a really, really… Do you have a date for that? We are finalizing the date with the venue at the moment, but once I do, I'll let you know. We will invite our craft beer and cider and wine friends to come in here to do You know, that's the place where people can actually try it in a very casual, fun and local way. Kerry Newsome : And I think that social interaction, you know, where you can, you know, you can stand around with people and say, what do you think? And you know, that tastes a bit like this. Did you try this one? And it's just all that sharing is so much fun and makes it just, I think that much more enjoyable. In just closing up, Jovel, is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't ask you when we're talking about dining and the dining scene in Vietnam? Should I have asked you something and I didn't get around to it? Jovel Chan: No, but you should be asking me, you know, when the next time you're going to be in Vietnam and go out for coffee, very offended about that. Asking me when you can take me out for lunch, perhaps? Kerry Newsome : Yes, I will. Definitely. I'm writing that down as we speak. I'm going to make sure that I put your links so that people can go to your website because your website's fantastic, by the way. It's got some great information and your blog. Thank you so much. You've really got some great information. So, people, get onto that website and check out. all her information on the restaurants. If you want some great ideas to share with your family, friends, or when you're over there, don't miss out on that link and it'll be in the show notes. Jovel, I just want to say thank you again for being on the show. You've been a wonderful guest and I'm just grateful for your time. Jovel Chan : Thank you so much for having me. Happy dining.

S5-E7-- The Rise of Unique Dining Experiences in Vietnam S5-E7-- The Rise of Unique Dining Experiences in Vietnam Episode 07 S5-E7-- The Rise of Unique Dining Experiences in Vietnam 00:00 / 54:10 In our show today we get to explore the evolving food culture in Vietnam, with a focus on the growth of new culinary experiences and the expansion of dining options beyond just street food. Don’t get me wrong, Street Food is still something you must try, but don’t stop there! Our wonderful guest, Jovel Chan a food writer and consultant, shares her insights on the influx of chefs from Vietnam and abroad, the rise of upscale establishments, and the overall refinement and enhancement of the dining scene in cities like Saigon and Hanoi. Many talented chefs have come to Vietnam, particularly in cities like Saigon and Hanoi, to set up their own restaurants and cater to both tourists and locals looking for something different. These chefs bring with them their expertise and creativity, introducing new flavors, techniques, and cuisines to the Vietnamese food scene. Additionally, the rise of five-star hotels and the opening of more malls in Vietnam have further diversified the dining scene. This has led to a wider variety of cuisines being available, catering to different tastes and preferences. It was pure joy to have this time with Jovel as we laughed and agreed on so many topics and shared experiences. I hope you can forgive the slight ‘cross talk’ in places, but I think if I didn’t leave that in, you would miss out on the connection we had, and wanted to share with you. If you are looking for new tables to eat at and experience Vietnamese food variations then listen to the end as Jovel shares her favourites in Hanoi and Saigon. You can find all about Jovel’s Saigon Social, dining guides and so much more on her website here, so make sure you check out her dates and plan your trip accordingly. I know I am going to! Follow Jovel here: Website: https://jovelchan.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jovel.chan/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jovel.chan.7/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joveleugeniachan/ Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-E8 – Empowering the Traveller: In the fight against Human Trafficking S5-E8 – Empowering the Traveller in the fight against Human Trafficking in Vietnam Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Now, while I love telling travel stories and introducing interesting guests on the show, occasionally I get the opportunity to delve a little deeper into Vietnam and maybe bring your awareness to a more human interest story of Vietnam. Today we're going to find out how some Vietnamese actually experience serious hardship and poverty and become more vulnerable to human trafficking. And while we are travelers, we may see things that we don't quite understand, or maybe we see them and think, oh, that doesn't look quite right, and we experience the poverty, we see it, we don't always know what to do about it. Do we give the beggar money or food? Do we report it? Who to? What impact can we really make to make a difference? My guest today is the lovely Kim Miller, and she's going to give us firsthand knowledge of Vietnam's struggle with human trafficking. I think you're going to be blown away when you hear the work that she's doing with a company called Blue Dragon, which is really out there trying to eradicate human trafficking. Plus, Kim herself needs our help to fulfill her dream. I'd like you to welcome Kim to the program as we talk some serious stuff, but some interesting stuff that I think is going to make your trip to Vietnam so much more richer, if that's the word. And I think it's going to give you a bit of a background and context to some of the things you're seeing. So let's welcome Kim to the program. Kim, welcome to What About Vietnam? Kim Miller: Thank you so much, Kerry. I've listened to so many of your episodes and as somebody who's lived and worked in Vietnam, I still find them incredibly interesting in learning about new places that I can visit and travel to and about the people and the culture. So I'm really excited to be talking to you today. Kerry Newsome: Oh, that's good to know. It's always nice to talk to people who listen to my podcast. That always warms my heart. Kim, look, you're an Australian girl. I know that you share your time between Australia and Vietnam. Tell us, you know, how you got interested in Vietnam in the first place. Like, what is it about Vietnam that captured your interest as a traveller? Kim Miller: I actually came to Vietnam to work before I'd ever travelled in Vietnam, which I think is fairly rare, a little bit different to how most people end up in Vietnam. I learned about Blue Dragon Children's Foundation where I work before I'd ever travelled to Vietnam. So I'd heard about it from friends, from people who'd worked and lived in Vietnam, and I'd always been intrigued. I'd always wanted to travel to Southeast Asia. But I hadn't actually travelled very much in my life. And so when I first came to Vietnam to work for Blue Dragon, it was very new to me. I was experiencing it all for the very first time. Kerry Newsome: That would have been quite pioneering, I would have thought. I mean, I know I first visited back in 2007. And, you know, people then thought, gosh, you know, that was brave. That was crazy, you know, going to Vietnam. Because as you and I would know, Vietnam has a kind of a history with us that we consider more in the view of the Vietnam War rather than it being a country. Would you say that's true? Kim Miller: Yeah, and I guess my experience of Vietnam really came from the people I'd known who were working there. In some ways, I'd expected to come to a country that was far less developed than what I found it to be. I came across for the first time in 2012 and moved across full-time in 2014. And so I guess, yeah, my image of what Hanoi in particular might look like was a lot less developed than what I found when I arrived. Kerry Newsome: Okay, so did you get a chance, and during your roles over there, did you get a chance to do some exploring in Vietnam? Kim Miller: I have. I definitely haven't done as much as I'd like to, and there is so much more to see. I've mostly seen towards the north, a little bit in the center, and I have been down to Saigon, down to Ho Chi Minh City for work and had a little bit of a chance to explore down on the Mekong Delta. I've been up to Sa Pa and, of course, Ha Long Bay, been down to Nha Trang and Dalat, and around some of the more countryside places, the rural parts near Hanoi, like Mai Chau is one of my absolute favourite places to go to get away from the city. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, it's a very interesting place too, isn't it? I went there with a friend who had sent me there on a trajectory to find and discover their textiles and some of the materials and things that they weave, some of their crafts and things like that. So, besides it being beautiful countryside, it was extremely interesting from that perspective. Kim Miller: Really interesting. Yeah, it was the first time that I'd seen the weaving happening and their five-coloured sticky rice was definitely a drawcard for me. I've been back a couple of times now in particular to try the sticky rice and the lake down the bottom of my toe as well. Mammoth, isn't it? Yeah, it is. I've done quite a bit of swimming there, much to the surprise, I guess, of the people, the homestay where I was staying. They hadn't seen people swim in that lake before, but I've spent a lot of time in that lake as well. I absolutely love it down there, Macho. Kerry Newsome: It's really come a long way too. Recently, I know that I think a fishing restaurant has been built there. It was being built at the time I was there, but it actually sits on top of a fishing farm. in the lake. Because you know the lake is huge to navigate, so they do a lot of fish farming. And this restaurant, you can't get any fresher fish. It's literally on the lake, on the farm. Kim Miller: Straight from the lake, delicious. That sounds amazing. Kerry Newsome: I know what I'll be trying the next time I'm there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. So, you know, like good segue into talk about food in Vietnam. Do you have any favorites? Like what would you suggest to travelers listening to the program and thinking about food? Kim Miller: Oh, look, I have so many favorites. And I'm not going to pronounce this correctly. I get in trouble for my friends and colleagues every time. Thank you. It's called Pho Chien Phong and it's kind of, it's only found in Hanoi, in one particular street in Hanoi. I kind of call it like the fast food of Vietnam. And it's basically fried squares of rice paper that bubble up like little pillows. And it's in this really interesting gravy with beef and tomato and onion. And it's quite rare in terms of the sort of food that I generally eat in Vietnam, which is so fresh and delicious. It's just like a real comfort food, especially great for in winter. So yeah, that's one of my favorites. And of course, you know, Bun Cha, Sunday morning chicken soup for Gar is, you know, to die for. And I'm very partial to a coconut coffee, a cafe soda as well. Kerry Newsome: Gosh; You're really my best friend now. That is my first go-to when I get to Vietnam. I just adore it. Absolutely. Kim Miller: Yeah, I made it my mission to try a few different places each time I go to try somewhere different to see if I can find a favorite, but I keep going back to one or two standards every time. Kerry Newsome: And if I was to ask you, you know, do you have any like favorite things you love to do? You know, my listeners are always asking for local advice and advice from travelers who've maybe just discovered a bit of a gem that's not on the on the map yet or you know is not sort of drowned out with tourists and that like do you have a a favorite thing you love doing or a place that you love going to that we could share with you know a hundred thousand or so listeners just to keep it between us you know it's just to keep my secret places yeah yeah i think Kim Miller: Ho Dong Do, there's a little lake Ho Dong Do, it's only about 90 minutes out of Hanoi and so it's kind of my favorite place to be able to get on the motorbike, just drive out of the city and I feel myself relaxing the further away I get and you know the further into the rice paddies you get and then you arrive at this beautiful lake, that's yeah, that's kind of my favorite just a weekend escape and I think I think people who kind of live in Hanoi tend to know it's there and head there, but I don't know of any tourists who've been there. I think because it might be a little bit challenging to get to if you didn't have your own transport maybe, but it's definitely one of my favorites. And how do you spell it? So it's H-O for lake, D-O-N, and then I think it's just D-O. Kerry Newsome: Ah, right. Okay. Good to know. Good to know. Because Hanoi is one of those places where, you know, trying to find somewhere just, you know, two or three hours away from Hanoi is a little bit challenging. I mean, you've got two hours now on the highway to Halong Bay. You're still three or four hours to Ninh Binh. I mean, I'm going to check out Yen Bai. I think it's called. It's about three and a bit hours out of Hanoi on my next trip. So, I'm always keen to find cute places or little escapes from Hanoi for people like that so that they know that, you know, that's kind of the time allotment because sometimes you can chew up a lot of time getting around Vietnam because you know, it's got some miles and not always the best roads. So, you know, finding the right transport is often challenging and you know, people are wanting to figure out, well, how many days have I got and how do I spread them about? And, you know, Hanoi is a really interesting city and very different, but, you know, maybe two or three days, four days, you're done and you want to do something, you know, sideline. So that sounds very, very interesting. I'll have to put some links, I think, to that in the show notes. Now Kim, I want to probably talk to you more now about Vietnam and the struggles that you and I have, you've certainly educated me more so recently in Vietnam. in regard to the poverty cycle and certainly where that leaves people vulnerable to human trafficking. So maybe for everyone, just to give us some context, maybe throw us some numbers. Can you give us some rough idea? I mean, the population of Vietnam is coming up to around about 100 million. they're saying now. And I've, you know, just in researching to do this show with you, you know, I'm, I'm hearing that there's over, over a million, uh, that are considered below the poverty line. I I'm, I'm thinking that's fairly short of the real number, but maybe give us some numbers around just, you know, what, how big the problem is, I guess. Kim Miller: I think, It's kind of telling that, so Blue Dragon has rescued just under 1,500 victims of human trafficking, people who've been tricked, lied to, and trafficked. And that, you know, is absolutely the tip of the iceberg. We've rescued people from every single province in Vietnam. And so I think it kind of shows just how widespread that problem is. We're not even just rescuing people from remote or rural areas, we are rescuing people from the cities and trying to protect people from the cities as well. And so I think whenever people ask for numbers about the number of people who are trafficked globally or in Vietnam and Really, the only number we can give you with absolute certainty is the number of people that we have rescued because there are so many people who are yet to be rescued or who we may never learn about or who may never return home safely. And so, yeah, I think those most telling numbers is just the number of people that we've rescued and the fact that it's from every single province around Vietnam. Kerry Newsome: And it's interesting that you mention about every province and city because I was to understand the little bit I do know that there was some concentration up in the north and certainly in the ethnic minority areas and where we find Vietnam's borders very close to China. Is that fair to say? Kim Miller: So that absolutely would have been the case before COVID. That was definitely true. Since COVID though, we've seen a very different scene when it comes to human trafficking. and people being tricked and trafficked from all over Vietnam. And they're being trafficked into different places as well. So at the moment, some of our most common rescues and our most challenging rescues are actually people who are being trafficked into, it was firstly Cambodia, and now also Myanmar, Laos, Thailand, and they're being trafficked into forced scam compounds where they're being tricked into thinking perhaps they're going for a job, they're applying for a job where they'll be working in an office. Perhaps they think they're just going on a date with a boy that they've met. Maybe they think they're going for a job in a restaurant or a telephone shop, a phone shop in one of the cities. But they're being tricked and trafficked into these other countries where they're being forced to work as slaves. And so that where they're coming from now isn't just in those northern border regions. Although when we first started doing this work, we definitely did find that there were many locations along northern Vietnam where human trafficking was more prevalent than in other areas. Kerry Newsome: It's such a silent, killer and so hard to detect. I know I got involved with another charity called the Children's Education Foundation, and that's around sponsorship of girls' education. And getting close to these girls that I sponsored over the years and working with an interpreter, I was able to kind of get a feel for just how they connect and, you know, they connect like us. They use, you know, social media and things like that. And just how scarily easy it was for these girls to be impressed with connections and reach outs from people offering them jobs. And I would try to explain to them that they know nothing about those people. Those people have got no credentials. They need to research and be very cautious. But in their kind of their beautiful naivety and ability to believe everybody's kind of good and would do the right thing by them, they can so easily be misguided or caught up in situations that are just not what they appear to be. Has that been your experience too? Kim Miller: Absolutely, yeah. People who are looking for a better life, they're looking for a way to be able to care for their family. You know, we had one young mum who is living in Hazang. She has four children. And she was already living in absolute poverty when her husband had passed away. And so she was left with four young children too who were, you know, a baby and a toddler. And she had been talking to somebody on Zalo, a social communication app in Vietnam that's very popular. And that person had been talking to her about a job that she could go to if she could leave her children in the village with other people to care for them. She could go for this job where she would earn good money She could send money back to her children and she would be able to earn enough money to come back to her family. And she was really lucky. We were running part of our anti-trafficking strategies that we're developing anti-trafficking boards, which is groups of people who become experts in communities to run workshops to help people understand the tricks that the traffickers use. And just like what you were saying, ways that they can keep themselves safe, red flags that they can look out for. And in this workshop that she just happened to go to, she realized that the messages that she'd been getting were basically word for word what the traffickers had been using to trick people into going to Cambodia to work in these scam centers. And so it was just she was looking for a way to feed her children, you know, to be able to help those kids survive. And we have no doubt, had she gone, you know, she would never have seen those children again. But because she went, the really great thing, because she went to that workshop, we now know she exists. And so we were able to support her. Not only is she now safe from human trafficking because she understood the dangers of it and that, you know, that what was being offered to her as being too good to be true actually was too good to be true. But we were able to buy her a very pregnant cow, you know, healthy with veterinary teeth, Very valuable. Yeah, help her learn how to care for the cow. And then to have that income, to be able to have an ongoing income without needing to leave her children and leave her community. We're also helping to pay school fees for her children, as well as helping her with that emergency money to begin with. So it's being able to help people who are looking for a way to have a better life, who might take a risk. because they can't see a way of their life improving without taking that risk. It's really important to be able to help them stay in their community and not to have to leave and not to have to take those risks. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and it's an interesting analysis to look at the traffickers as well as those trafficked. And I'm a follower of your founder, Michael, And just some of the blogs that he's written and the stories he's told about just how desperate the traffickers are, as well as the trafficked. You know, the hype in movies and things like that about it being, you know, all big business and flamboyant and, you know, like, it's not always the story. And as you say, some of these people that are suggesting that, you know, there's work to be obtained in Myanmar or there's work to be obtained in China. You know, it's better in Cambodia. These people are actually often known to these people that get trafficked. So, you know, it's scary that, you know, you can be that close to these people and the traffickers are thinking that they're going to make some extra dollars in a much easier fashion, without any concept of the slavery or the danger that they are actually putting these people through. I mean, some are, but some are fairly innocent, from what I've heard, that they don't actually know what concept they're selling, and when it turns out to go bad, it must be dreadful. Kim Miller: Absolutely, yeah, and that was one of the things like when we started, you know, we knew at Blue Dragon that we needed, doing the rescues is fine. We have social workers, psychologists, lawyers, we have a team of people that can really care for survivors when they come home and help them to be able to rebuild their lives. But we can't change what's happened to them. And so we needed to find a way to be able to end human trafficking and to be able to keep people safe in the first place. And that was one of the things that we realized is that we knew a lot about the victims of human trafficking, but we needed to know who the traffickers were. And we did. We found that the profile of a human trafficker in Vietnam is very similar to the profile of a victim. living in absolute poverty, low education levels, people from ethnic minority communities are often overrepresented. And again, it's finding ways, it's where these anti-trafficking workshops and the anti-trafficking boards that have been set up, their goal also is to be able to stop people from being vulnerable to poverty, because then we're going to have less people also not only taking a risk that ends up with them being trafficked, but it also stops people from becoming traffickers, from doing something that maybe they might not ordinarily do, but to be able to improve their own lives as well. It's such an important thing. It's such an important thing that we're looking at both sides of it. Kerry Newsome: I mean, education is just so invaluable in this situation, isn't it? For these people to get access to it, to acknowledge that this kind of deception is out there and to be mindful, not to have that open heart, which many of the Vietnamese have, to new things and opening up their homes to people. As travelers in particular, you find yourself at the generosity of many people that have very little and they give so much. And to then discover that they're being exploited in this way, to me, it just kills me. You've told us that you do share your time between here and Vietnam. So tell us what you yourself do in Vietnam and then we'll lead into that great swim that you've got coming up. Kim Miller: Yeah, look, I'm in a really unique role at Blue Dragon. I often say I think I've got the best job in the organisation. My role is that I started in Vietnam at Blue Dragon as the school's coordinator. So effectively, I work with schools and students and teachers and supporters of Blue Dragon all around the world, and I help them understand the issues, the cycle of poverty, the ongoing cycle, human trafficking, modern slavery, child slavery, and helping them understand the ways that people become vulnerable and the things that we can do to help them lift out of that poverty and be less at risk of human trafficking. I also work with our supporters and our business supporters and our friends in Australia. And so my role is kind of that dual role of working with people all around the world of school age and students, but also working with our donors and supporters here in Australia. Kerry Newsome: In getting back to where I started in the program in talking about travelers, and I'm one of them, so when I'm traveling to Vietnam, I do come across situations where I think, oh, I don't know, that just doesn't look right, or I just get, you know, my antennas go up and I just feel like that person is being forced to do something against their will, or I don't know. It's very hard to gauge, as we've just said, that deception-wise, there's some amazing tricks in their trade on how they can represent themselves. But if you are a traveler, we talked about before we recorded this show about an opportunity for how travelers can make a difference? What are some of the things that we can do to help this process or aid this process other than, you know, straight donations? And we get to that and we're certainly going to get to where we can help you. But just as we're out and about, you know, is there anything that we can do or we should take a note of? Kim Miller: Yeah, absolutely. There was one day I was coming back from a school that I'd been speaking at in Hanoi and it was in between the two, there were two main lockdowns in COVID in Vietnam. And it was in between those two lockdowns. Kids had been able to go back to school for a little while. And I was riding back to the Blue Dragon Center. It was about 11 o'clock in the morning, a super hot day. And sitting out from the curb, about a meter and a half from the edge of the road, was a little girl sitting, holding a basket, as you often see people living in poverty do in Hanoi to earn money. And in that basket, she was selling things like toothpicks and chewing gum and tissues. And she positioned herself kind of in the middle of the road so that hundreds and hundreds of motorbikes had to ride around her. And as people walked past or as they rode past, they were often dropping some money, generally only one or two thousand dong, five thousand dong in her basket. And I stopped, she was a little girl who I had seen before, and we were very close to the Blue Dragon Center at the time. I could actually see the Blue Dragon Center from where we were. And I stopped to sort of find out what she was doing. And she very proudly pulled out a wad of money from her pocket. And, you know, in real terms, it might've been $5. It might've been enough money to buy her lunch and to buy her a drink that day. Um, and I sort of, I said, okay, all right, come on, let's, let's go to blue dragon. It was nearly lunchtime. So I said, let's, let's go to blue dragon and we'll have some lunch. And she said she couldn't go because she had had problems with her teeth. And she'd been told that day by her mom that she wasn't allowed to go to blue dragon and she wasn't allowed to go to school because she really needed to go to the hospital to get her teeth fixed. I kind of realized that she wasn't going to go with me at that time, so I went and bought us both a bottle of water and I sat down on the side of the road with her, which meant that people stopped giving her money. And in doing that, she realized, okay, I may as well go with Kim to Blue Dragon because nobody's going to give me money now anyway. And of course, when we got to Blue Dragon, I was able to talk to the social workers who were able to go to her mom, find her mom, take her to the hospital, you know, get her mouth fixed to be able to pay for her education, to make sure that they had somewhere safe to live. And it just really, you know, it really brought home to me in a really visceral way that all of those people who gave her that little bit of money on their way past, It was very generous and kind of them, but what it did was maybe help her survive with a bottle of water and some food for that day, but it didn't help improve her life. It didn't help her go to school to be able to get out of the cycle of poverty or to have somewhere safe to sleep that night. And one of the things that we can do as travelers that I wish more people knew about, and we can do this anywhere in the world, is take a pin, pop a pin, open up your phone, go to Google Maps, put out a pin, and remember where you are. Make a few little notes for yourself about what the child's wearing, where they are, if you can find a street sign that's even better, and then go to Google and find out who is a charity or an organization, a children's charity, that's working with children and homeless children in this area. Simply, if anybody had gone straight to Google on that day and they'd messaged homeless child Hanoi, Blue Dragon would have been the first thing that came up. By sending a message to us just through our social media, which again would have come up very easily, would have been one of the first things that come up. We could have had a social worker out to see her within five or ten minutes of her being there. We have a team of, we call them outreach workers. They're basically social workers who are out on the streets every day and through the night. to look for street kids, to look for vulnerable children, and to be able to help them, not just in that moment, but over the long term. And it's something that I know that we can do anywhere in the world, is just, you know, open up your phone, do a Google search, send a pin to show, you know, people, the social workers or the organization where the child is, and you'll be able to find somebody who'll be able to help them, not just for the moment, but for the long term. Kerry Newsome: And you know, I think that information is invaluable. I mean, I don't know how many times I would have loved to have had that initiative to do something like that. I think for me, getting my head around just the fact that organisations like yours, like Blue Dragon, exists and has the capacity to offer this kind of assistance is just truly amazing and inspiring. And I think for travellers, I think in their hearts, from people that I talk to, I think, you know, they would like to know what they can do if those circumstances you know, coming to their experience of the country. Because basically, you know, no one wants to see that happen, but they're not really sure where to get the support. I mean, even back onto the human trafficking, just I think in earlier years, because I was involved with Vietnam in, you know, kind of the early 2000s, I don't think I thought that Vietnam had strong enough penalties against people that did these kinds of things. But, you know, that's changed dramatically and those penalties have become quite severe now. So, you know, you can get 20 years plus imprisonment for that. So all of that has kind of spurred on, I guess, a greater want and desire for people to become more active and play a more active role. in supporting charities like Blue Dragon in doing what they're doing, because this kind of work is just so important. Let's talk, Kim, now about what your dream is. And I mean, you've already done some great fundraising work for the charity, but you might like to tell everyone about what you've got planned for July. Kim Miller: Yeah, it's a little bit crazy. The thing that I love most about what I'm doing is that anybody can do this in their own form. I'm taking something that I love and that I'm passionate about and I'm using it to do something great, to do something positive in the world. And so I am a swimmer, an ocean swimmer. I've only been able to say that since about December 2020. But yeah, I love ocean swimming and over the last couple of years I've started swimming further and further and I have the opportunity in July this year to attempt to swim across the English Channel from England to France to raise money for Blue Dragons. So I'm raising money for Blue Dragons. anti-trafficking programs. When I talked about those anti-trafficking boards and the sustainable income initiatives, paying for education, we know that to set all of that up in a community costs around $20,000. So I've set a kind of audacious goal of raising $200,000 from my English Channel Swim so that I can help 10 communities have these anti-trafficking programs initiated and keep thousands more people safe from human trafficking? Kerry Newsome: My hat goes off to you. I think it's a fabulous thing that you're doing. And for everyone listening, I'm going to be putting the link in the show notes. So it's like you're one click away, literally, for having the opportunity to be able to support this charity, to support Kim in what she's doing. And, you know, remember her tips about when you are visiting Vietnam and, you know, that pin in the Google map, easy peasy for us to do that kind of thing. We already know of the organization that we can pass that information on to. But certainly if we can get behind Kim to support her in this swim, audacious as that 200,000 is, I'm hoping that my generous listeners will definitely help you in this way and we can do more for Blue Dragon and just to break that poverty cycle and eradicate human trafficking in Vietnam. Kim Miller: I'm just so grateful, you know, to have this opportunity and to be able to talk about Blue Dragon's work. I think whenever I travel somewhere new, I want to know not just about the amazing things I can see as a tourist, but how I can help and what those social issues are underneath the bits that maybe I can't see for myself. And, you know, to have the opportunity for other travelers coming to Vietnam to do that as well. It's such a beautiful country with incredible people. I work with a team of incredible Vietnamese superheroes. And I'm so proud to be able to talk about their work and to let other people coming to Vietnam know what they can do to help keep even more people safe and create that change. So thank you so much for the opportunity. Kerry Newsome: Kim, it's been my pleasure. And as I said, everyone, look out for the link in the show notes, whether you listen to my podcast on your favorite channel, your Spotify, your iTunes, your Google podcast, your Amazons, your whatever. What About Vietnam is there. You can come to the website also at whataboutvietnam.com. You'll also see the summary notes there, which will also have the links. So let's get behind Kim and see what we can do to play our part in eradicating human trafficking in Vietnam. Thanks, Kim.

S5-E3- Heritage and discovery in Saigon, The Mekong Delta and Dalat S5-E3- Heritage and discovery in Saigon, The Mekong Delta and Dalat Episode 03 S5-E3- Heritage and discovery in Saigon, The Mekong Delta and Dalat 00:00 / 1:14:40 In this podcast episode, I have the opportunity to introduce you to Vicki Thai, a Health Care Sales professional living in Utah, USA, with Vietnamese heritage. Vicki's family immigrated to the United States from Vietnam when she was four years old, and during her growing up, she had never given much thought to her Vietnamese background. However, a moment of vulnerability in her mother's health led her to realize the importance of experiencing her heritage. She decided to plan a trip to Vietnam with her mother and reached out to the "What About Vietnam" podcast for assistance. As I knew the background to the tour, I took great pleasure in planning this trip for Vicki and her mum, which included visits to Saigon, the Mekong Delta, and Dalat. These locations held special significance for Vicki and her mother, allowing them to explore their roots and connect with their heritage. Unexpectedly, the trip evoked strong emotions and a newfound appreciation for their Vietnamese identity. During their stay in Vietnam, Vicki and her mother engaged with the local people, immersed themselves in the country's culture, and marveled at the landscapes. This experience transformed Vicki's perception of her birthplace, instilling a deep sense of pride in her heritage. She also praises the warmth and thoughtfulness of the Vietnamese people, particularly their tour guides, and one in particular in Saigon, Ms Thuy. The episode highlights Vicki's journey through Saigon, the Mekong Delta, and Dalat, showcasing her awe and discovery of these places. I think for those who don’t live in their country of birth, you will relate to Vicki's story. Despite the trip going mostly smoothly, there was a minor glitch, illustrating that while many aspects can be controlled, some factors remain unpredictable. I believe Vicki’s account of her experiences with the locals reflects the country itself, and Vietnam's warm and welcoming nature speaks volumes about the nation's character. From the bustling vibrant city of Saigon, Vicki takes us by the hand as she describes her love of the bustling city of Saigon, to her awe and disbelief cruising through the Mekong Delta and then to discovering through the forests, the city of Dalat. A city she totally didn’t expect, while being her mothers’ birth city. At a deeper level this episode offers insight into the transformative power of heritage exploration and the deep connections it can foster. Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-E3- Heritage and discovery in Saigon, The Mekong Delta and Dalat What About Vietnam – S5-E3 – Heritage and discovery in Saigon, The Mekong Delta and Dalat 00:00 Kerry Newsome Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Today I'm talking to Vicky Thai from Utah, USA. Hello to all my listeners in Utah. I have heaps actually, it's quite surprising, but really lovely and hello to everyone. Now Vicky is a very special lady with a history that I feel sure will come to bare during the show. And it speaks to her reason for going to Vietnam in the first place, and it calls to attention a little bit more about her heritage. But that's for Vicky to tell and reveal in this show. Vicky and I have become quite close over the past six months as she engaged my trip planning services through What About Vietnam to create her trip to Vietnam with her mum. As part of What About Vietnam, or WAV as we call it, I offer trip planning services, which is loads of fun and something I get really involved with as I get to create wonderful trips for people using my knowledge and accessing quality tour operators I know in Vietnam that will deliver exceptional services. The delight is hearing afterwards how the trips went and what were the highlights. You find detail that you just can't get in a guidebook. You find insights from people and I think the value in that is knowing that it sounds real, it sounds true, it sounds correct, and obviously it's got some bias from the people that give up their stories on the show, but at least you can be sure it's real and true. The What About Vietnam website features these travel services. I do charge a small fee to do that, but please feel free to reach out to me any time. So before we jump into the show, I'd just like to tell you a little bit more about Vicky. As I said, Vicky lives in Sandy, Utah, USA. She is in the healthcare technology industry in sales for a global company. The platform is Android and they have 55% of the global Android enterprise market share. Outside of healthcare, her company targets Fortune 500 companies and within healthcare. They target the larger hospital networks to provide clinicians with technology that improves patient care and satisfaction. Wahoo for that. She is a former runner, however, more recently she has got into the practice of hot yoga. Three cheers to you Vicky for hot yoga. She loves to travel and each year she will take off with a close friend picking a city, an area they haven't been to, and then they just go for it enjoying local food and spas as they traverse through the city. She describes herself as a definite foodie, an adventurous eater, but no to any bugs. Totally with you there. Vicky is ethnically Chinese but born in Vietnam. Now this is where her story and that of her mom becomes even more interesting. She immigrated to the States when she was four years old. In the past she said she never really had an interest in Vietnam. It wasn't until her mom had both of her knees replaced and witnessed some vulnerabilities there that she saw the opportunity to travel with her may not come up and wouldn't offer any guarantees. So she better make an effort to put it on the bucket list and get on and do it. So thus she reached out to me through What About Vietnam to help her create the trip. And the trip was to have some very special places of interest that it had to be included in the itinerary. These included Saigon, the Mekong Delta and Dalat which we will focus as a main city in this episode. Vicky's going to be able to give us some insights that I think you wouldn't get from anyone else. So I'm really, really happy that she's coming on to do that. It's been a delight to deal with Vicky. She says after completing the trip end of May just gone, that's 2023, it was a decision she will never regret or forget. I think we're going to find out more about how this trip evoked some emotions and some understanding of her heritage. She said when I've thought about my heritage in the past it was basically just in passing, just facts, no emotions. After visiting Vietnam in May, interacting with the people, the landscape and their commerce, it made me feel very proud of my heritage. I hope to be back within the next couple of years. So I think this is going to be a very special episode. It's one I've been looking forward to doing. I think we're going to hear some reflections from Vicky as how it opened her eyes to this country, her country of birth, and just how her perceptions maybe had been shaped and what she and her mom found on the other side. So Vicky, welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. It's lovely to have you on the show. 05:42 Vicki Thai Thank you so much, Harry, and thank you so much for the invite. I'm really excited to talk about our experience in Vietnam and how it really broadened my views of it. Like you mentioned in the past, I really never gave it second thought, but this trip has changed everything and how I view Vietnam. It was so amazing. As you know, my brother and his family has booked a trip with you for December. So clearly my mom and I were that convincing after coming back from our trip. And so I have another brother who is going to reach out a little bit later. His wife had unexpected brain surgery a few weeks ago. And so I think that's, you know, like with my mom's experience, that's really opened his eyes as well. And so it was just an amazing experience. 06:28 Kerry Newsome I’m excited to talk to you about it. And like, you know, not everybody has your interesting background. So I'm wondering if you can share with us just a little bit of a story, maybe starting with your mom and that trip that took her to settle in the U.S. You as a four-year-old, you know, like any memories that you have of arriving into the States and just how you were assimilated into the U.S.? 07:00 Vicki Thai Sure, absolutely. So I'm going to take it a step further and talk about my grandparents. So my grandparents on both sides actually are from China and immigrated to Vietnam to start businesses. My grandparents on my dad's side, they were cobblers or they made shoes. And then on my mom's side, they were bakers. And apparently their baker became so famous. And then they opened aquariums. And so they were very established within the Vietnam community. And then, you know, of course, then that's where my mom was born in Bailup, which is the suburb of Dulat, and why we went back there specifically on the trip in May. And then I was actually my, so I'm the youngest of four. So and then we were actually born in Saigon. And I believe we lived in District 5. And, you know, the pictures I showed you, they were District 5. And then, you know, during the Vietnam War, interesting story, my dad was an accountant for the U.S. Embassy. And so during communist regime, they have a tendency to kidnap anyone associated with Americans because there's this belief that America is paid with gold, everyone has money, right? And so they would hold the kids for ransom. And so my last name, Ty, is actually my mom's family's last name. So they could not connect us kids to my dad. Wow. And so yeah. And so because my grandparents on my mom's side was so established, we were pretty safe with the last name, Ty, right? And so during the war, what ended up happening is everyone was leaving, right? You hear both people all the time and you hear the stories. Well, they're all true, right? And some of the stories are horrendous. Ours was not great, but compared to others that I've heard, you know, it's a walk in the park. So my grandparents, my mom's side being established, they actually rented a boat for the family and friends. And my dad was actually asked to join them. And the thought was you leave the country, you go to a refugee camp, you go to your final destination, right? Ours is the U.S. And then he would sponsor the rest of the family over. So my mom and my four, and the four kids over. Well, along the Thailand coast, and you hear about pirates all the time, right? So at nighttime, the boat's dock and the pirates come out. And so our boat was targeted and all the men are thrown overboard. All the women were tied up and they ransacked and stole, right? Because when you leave the country, we can take with you, you're gonna take money, you're gonna take jewelry, you're gonna take all of that stuff. They ransacked and took all of that stuff. My dad was thrown overboard. And so, and then my uncles heard him screaming, they swam over and he was gone. So we lost my dad on his way to the, you know, to leave Vietnam. And so a telegram, my grandpa sent a telegram to my grandma. My grandma went and talked to my mom. And so we've lost our dad. And so within six months we were leaving again. My grandma said to my mom, you and your kids need to live. You don't have a life here, right? And so we left. We were on a refugee camp for, I think in Indonesia, for like six months. And then we immigrated to the U.S. And so I was four when we got here, you know, your language is developed, but not to the point where you're fluent. And so English was my language. I always spoke to my mom in English and just basically assimilated. And that's why I think when you're talking about my bio, I didn't really have a connection to Vietnam because I was so young, right? And my language, right? And I can tell you, I understand Vietnamese and I can order off the menu, right? And I speak broken Cantonese, but that's basically it, right? And so, you know, if you were to talk to people here, they're like, oh, you're just American, right? And it was funny when we were in Vietnam, our tour guide in Mekong Delta is like, and I was saying, like, thank you in Vietnamese. He's like, oh, you have an English accent. You have an American accent. And so you never think of that. And so, you know, and that's just, just, you know, I think it was just we came over and we're so young. So I was four, the oldest was nine, right? And so we basically have spent the bulk of our lives here. And, you know, I tell you, I'm 49. So I've been here basically my whole life, right? And so you really, you know, growing up, I think you hear more of that, what are you? Right? And then you hear like the racist, like little jokes that little kids do, you know, and it's very common. I know within the US and I'm sure within the rest of the world where your Asian name is different. And so it's harder to pronounce. So you change it. So I change, I picked Vicky in third grade, right? Don't ask why my ethnic name is Thanh, like Tanya, but it's spelled T-H-A-N-H, right? And I'm sure you see that name when you're in Vietnam, right? In America, it's harder to pronounce. And so you change that. What year was it when you got out of Indonesia? Was it, do you know what year that was? It was in the 80s. So we got to the US early 81. All right. And how old would your mom have been at that time? My dad died when she was 31. And so not long after she took us and the, you know, my dad's aunt who was basically our nanny, then we left Vietnam to come to the, well, and here's the thing. When you go to a refugee camp, you really don't know where your final destination is, right? It could be Australia. It could be, it's just wherever your sponsors are. But yeah, but we landed in Utah in early 81. Is there a big community of Vietnamese in Utah? Yeah. Well, supposedly there is because we are getting Asian supermarkets. We're getting Asian bakeries. We're getting Asian drink shops all over the Salt Lake Valley. And so I remember my sister-in-law and I, who's also Asian, were saying, I didn't know there were so many Asians here, right? But if you were to talk to people who are very vested in the Asian community, they will tell you our Asian community is blowing up. That's why so many, you know, are coming here. When we say Asians, are you talking about the broad spectrum of Asians, like from all countries? So we're talking all of Southeast Asia kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Including China. If you think about it, including China. And you know, even though we're all very different, we eat a lot of the same food. 13:28 Kerry Newsome I have such a huge percentage of listeners. So like I have over 60,000 listens of the show and it grows at around about a thousand a week. And what became unusual for me was to think, why would people in Utah be listening to this podcast about Vietnam? And I did a little bit of digging and the more I dug away and, you know, thank God for Google, to find out that in 1975 onwards, that Utah as a state was one of the few in America that did take and was willing to accept a lot of Vietnam refugees. The community, I think, stemmed from, and that's why I was intrigued with your story when we first got together, was, and particularly when you were mentioning about your mum wanting to come back, I had that thought, I was thinking, gee, I wonder whether in the mix of things, this is how this has come about. But this was also where American GIs had, you know, formed relationships with Vietnamese women and they wanted to bring them as their partners back and their families, et cetera. So there was a few particular states that kind of welcomed with open arms the Vietnamese into the US at that time. So that's kind of what I know to add to this little equation. Interest. There you go. You go to Vietnam in 2023, the first time you've been back since you were four and since she was 30. So you're going in almost, not blind, but a really open mind. Or did your mum say, oh, look, this is something I really need to do, or this is something I really want to find out about? Because I know we talked a little bit about it when we did the trip plan, so I know it, but my listeners don't. So let's go down that path a little bit. So share some of the things that she wanted to see and do and that you wanted to make sure happened. 15:41 Vicki Thai Sure. Absolutely. So for clarification, my mum has gone back to Vietnam, I believe, twice in our 40 something years within the US, but it's been a very long time ago. And in the past, she went with her friends. And, you know, as you know, with a lot of Asians, right, they are very good with their money. So when they go back, they stay with family. And even the best accommodations, possibly in Vietnam, is very different from what we have in the Western side, right? And so did she enjoy it? You know, I'm not sure. But, you know, she was always happy to come home, right? Let's just say that. And so for my mum, it was to, you know, she's 75, right? And you don't, you know, at a certain age, you don't have that many more opportunities ahead of you, because after a while, maybe, you know, your health breaks down a little bit and sitting on a flight for 20 plus hours is going to be very difficult, right? And then also, she just had her knees replaced. And for me, it was spending time with my mum, right? Because it's an experience, right? We could go around town here, but it's very normal. This is different. Yeah, it's bonding. This is something I can share with her. And I can see her where she grew up, so I can better understand sometimes. You know, we don't always mess well. She would say things, I'm like, that doesn't make sense. And she's like, well, if you understood how I grew up, you know, you would be more sympathetic or understanding about it. And here's the thing, because I didn't grow up that way, I'm not going to understand. And so it was just an opportunity. And then also, after, you know, with my mum, it'd be nice to really know where I came from, right? Because all I know is the US. I'm all American, right? That's all I know, right? And so that was the deciding point. And that was when the ball got rolling with contacting you. 17:33 Kerry Newsome There was really specific locations. And I want to now start to talk about those locations, because I think, you know, everyone listening is going to be fascinated about these locations. Now, let's start with Saigon. Did Saigon blow your hair back when you got there? 17:51 Vicki Thai I loved it. I loved it. I loved the hustle and bustle. I love city life, right? And then like, I would go to the more remote for quote unquote, a vacation or a break. But I love city life. I love the sounds. I love the smell. I love the people. It was it blew my mind. And I think all the scooters at one time blew my mind. And I remember saying to our tour guide, I said, I can never drive here because I would kill, you know, two or three scooter people at every drive. And she's like, oh, you'll get used to it when you live here. But I just loved it. I loved how everything was so close. And I loved how if you want to eat a certain food, there is a street and there's all these restaurants that just sells that. I'm going to be honest, I loved it. That is a city that's close to my heart. I can tell you, you know, anytime I go back, that is I will never miss that city. It just felt so at home to me. 18:34 Kerry Newsome Look, I'm really glad you've said that about Saigon, because a lot of people skip Saigon. It's like a little bit too overwhelming or whatever. I think it's got over the years better. I mean, it's embraced commercialism to the absolute max, but it's got a vibe. It's got an energy. I agree with you. I get a grab bike and I, you know, I'm on that bike in two seconds flat around the corner, you know, the best coffee, coffee houses everywhere. Yeah, I'm really glad that you had that experience because I wasn't sure because I have such a mix in my suite of people who want to visit Vietnam. And some just go, oh, you know, the bikes, the pollution, the rubbish, you know, all of those things. And they're all there. They're all definitely there. But you either are a type of person and you go, I'm going to just embrace this and go with it. 19:40 Vicki Thai And I was really glad to hear that you did. Right. And it was funny because we had a couple when we were going to the Mekong Delta. So the shuttle picked us up. Right. And so they picked us up first and then we went to their hotel. They're a British couple. And every year they take, you know, global trips. And one of the things that they said to us, and I will never forget it, just because we were just talking about how much I love the hustle and bustle of Saigon. And they said Saigon is exactly where Singapore was 10 years ago. And then we all hear about Singapore now. Right. And so I'm really excited, you know, to each time I go back to see how Saigon transforms. Right. And then maybe eventually 10 years, they will be, you know, the Singapore of, you know, Asia. But it was just really interesting. And I just, I just loved it. I just, I love the hustle and bustle. I just loved all of them. 20:29 Kerry Newsome . No, I can remember where there was a time where there was no malls. There was, the shopping was very, very limited to Ben Thanh markets. And that whole experience was just at a really basic level, but it's so sophisticated. Now I've had, I've been to fine dining restaurants that would rival any restaurant that you would find in the US or here in Australia. Like the food was just absolutely fabulous. The service, I get blown away. I think you also had a really good guide in Saigon. 21:02 Vicki Thai . Oh, yes. Thuy was phenomenal. My mom and I are just like, who is like that? Right. It's like, I believe I'm a pretty nice person, but she blows me. I'm mediocre compared to her. You know, she's just so thorough. She is so caring. You know, I tell you what, I can't speak enough of her. And as you know, I requested specifically that with my brother's family, you know, if they should have Tui as their tour guide. Yeah, she is phenomenal. She is, my mom, I think considers her as her fifth child, you know, just because the hospitality there is one of the things that I think one of the highlights of the trip, and I think I mentioned to you, is our tour guides. You know, Tui was exceptional, you know, on any respect, right? But, you know, even our tour guide on the Mekong Delta, he was phenomenal. Our tour guides and their drivers. It was just, I just could not believe these people, the hospitality, the kindness, right? And I really feel like, you know, we could all talk about tour guides and then we've, I think we've all experienced tour guides who clearly don't want to be there. It's a job. None of our tour guides, yeah, yeah, none of our tour guides like that. And I just think to myself, if I just had people after people coming day after day, could I keep this up? I'm not sure I can, right? And so I, and that's one of the things that I love. And I mentioned it to my family and my part of it, that's made me so proud of my heritage is that just the kindness of the people, right? Because growing up, we always hear about how poor Vietnam is and how uneducated the people are, right? And all that stuff. And just being there in May, it blew me away because they were educated, they were kind, they were well spoken. And, you know, here's the thing, they spoke English to me and they spoke Vietnamese to my mom, you know, without a hitch. And so I will tell you that the people there are so kind, are so good. It was, it would not, you would not consider people in a developing country like Vietnam to be as, I don't want to say classy, but I'm going to use that term because I can't think of another, as classy and thoughtful as the people and the tour guides that we had in Vietnam. And Tuy was, I mean, they were all phenomenal, but Thuy is at the top. 23:22 Kerry Newsome When you go to a foreign country, the people and how you are treated to me, uh, says a lot about the country itself. Now, I mean, we both know the history of Vietnam and just how the country has been through so much, and yet they can still welcome us so warmly, so friendly, so openly, so generously. I feel the Vietnamese have a generous spirit and they, you know, they will, nothing, nothing is too much trouble. Service is just. 24:13 Vicki Thai Yeah. Well, it's like what we're talking about. It's for, you know, for maybe in Australia and the West, you know, and the U S it's a, it's a job, right? And where I just, you know, I never felt like we were imposing. I never felt that, um, you know, we were asking for too much. I never, they never made us feel that way. And it was so welcoming. I remember we stepped off the plane, right? It was a 24 hour flight. Tuy picked us up and it was like 10 30 at night. And she just waved and I was just like, you know, and then the first thing she says is happy birthday. And I looked at her. I was like, how did you know? She was like, it was on your passport. And it was like, it's just the little things, right? And I think, you know, it being in sales and for you working with the public so much, it's, it's always accumulation of little things that adds up to a really big thing. Definitely. And I think Vietnam exemplifies that with their people. I'm keen to hear what you thought of the Mekong Delta and what story and history you got around that area. So we did the Mekong Delta cruise, right? On Mekong ice. And I tell you, um, you know, our tour guide was Jonathan there. He was phenomenal. He was just phenomenal. So friendly, so educated on everything. And the thing I love about the Mekong Delta, what it was, you know, we're on the cruise and we're just going by and then you see so many homes, you know, on, on the coast of it. And so many are just so very run down, right? And some of it breaks your heart because you realize, you know, he actually lived this way, right? And then, but we went to, you know, we stopped and we did this walking tour and it's all these tropical fruits. And we went to this house and they have this huge, oh my God, I can't even imagine this garden with fruits, vegetables, everything. And the people were just so kind. I'm not sure I can sit and cut fruit for people every day, multiple times and have a smile on my face. You know, strangers coming to your house, eating your fruit, right? And it was, I tell you, it was just phenomenal. And, you know, and there's just, there was something about Jonathan that he was just so kind. And I just remember he liked talking to my mom because my mom's a jokester. She's not that way with her kids, but she's that way with others, right? You know, I was just talking to him and he is just like, you know, I love talking to your mom because it reminds me of this and I said, oh, that's nice, right? And one of the things that, and it really like, it really, you know, touched me. He was like, she reminds me of my mom. And I said, oh, how nice, right? And then he was just like, and here's the thing, his mom died in 2017. And here my mom is, and he was like, her voice sounds like her, the way she jokes sounds like her, everything. And after I heard that, I'm like, talk to her all you want, you know, because it was like, and I could tell my mom was enjoying it because she's in her element, right? Because English, she understands a lot of it, but not as much as Vietnamese. And so it was, I loved it. We went to the floating market, which I, you know, just watching the people and you think to yourself, oh my God, how do you make a life out of it? Right. And Jonathan was saying, so when the kids, I said, well, when the kids, where do they go to school? And he was like, well, they don't go to school. Right. And I said, well, where do they bait? You know, he's like, well, they'll jump in the Delta. I'm like, it was like, if you and I were to jump in, we would come out, I'll itch you, right? But they're so accustomed to it. And then I was just like, you learn all this stuff. And I said, well, these boats, like the pineapple couple boat, I said, is there a bathroom in there? And he was like, no, he was like, do you see these ladies with their boats? They're like taxis. And so if you need to use a restroom, they build it, you know, at a certain area and they take them there. And I just thought to myself, oh my God, what a tough life, but they're choosing it. And you just have to think to yourself, God, props to you for, you know, he said a lot of the pineapple, they actually have a home on the mainland, right? But they choose to live on the boat because it's more simple. I don't know about you, Carrie, but I would not be, you know, choosing to leave my home to live on a boat where I have to take a taxi to use the restroom. You know what I mean? A water taxi. And you just have to think to yourself, number one, how tough they are. And the love for living a simple life, they're willing to give up modern necessities or modern conveniences to this life. So for people like us, touring can climb on their boat to have some pineapple. You know, you just have to give them props for that because they're choosing to live a life that's far more difficult than a life that you and I would ever choose. 28:52 Kerry Newsome You've got to also think that it's kind of in their DNA. You know, they have come from that heritage. So they intrinsically know it so well. Like you and I, we'd be falling out of the boats. We'd be, you know, wanting to go to the toilet every 10 minutes. So we'd be getting, we would be an absolute pain in the neck. I know I would be. So I think also where it's challenging for the future, when I've talked to various guides and I've been a couple of times now, is that it is a dying industry per se because the children that they're having are getting better educated as obviously they want them to be. So they don't want to come back and earn a living on those boats. They don't want to have those inconveniences of life. They want, you know, they want the modern future. And so there's probably only about a hundred or so families that now choose that and continue that. So, you know, it's not going to be there for much longer, which is a little bit sad, but you can, that's progress, I guess, in its most basic form. But it's fascinating, isn't it, to see it and to realize that this is happening. This is not a show. This is not like put on just for tourists. This goes on whether I come and visit it or see it anyway. It's day to day existence and livelihood for a lot of people. So I'm glad you got to see that because it's just even a good measurement back for yourself when you come back to your own country and you've got all the mod cons and you've got, you know, your life, you go, oh my God. 30:44 Vicki Thai Well, it certainly makes you appreciate what you have in your life, right? Because I don't have to call a water taxi to use the restroom, you know? 30:52 Kerry Newsome All right. So then we moved you to Dalat and I really want you to go all out on Dalat because it's the one city amongst all my podcasts that I haven't really found the right person to talk about. I've been myself, but I really wanted someone that had a reason to go there and had some history about the place. And guess what? That's you. So tell us about Dalat. 31:21 Vicki Thai Yeah. So Dalat is a city my mom grew up in with her family. And so, I mean, not only did her family start the bakery and their business in Saigon, but they actually started in Dalat, then moved to the larger city. And so they were successful in Dalat as well. And so I wanted to go back to see where my mom grew up. Right. And, you know, it's like, maybe it could explain something. Right. And I tell you what, it was nothing that I expected. It was first off, amazingly beautiful. It was, I mean, I remember our driver and tour guide. I'm like, where are we going? Right. Because it was like, we're on the freeways and also we exit and we're like in this forest. And I said, I thought we're going to Dalat and they're like, yeah, we are. And I was like, what are you guys talking about? And so I'm thinking, oh my God, we're going to this, you know, one horse town, one stoplight, you know, we're going to have to dig our own place to use the restroom. And so we're just driving through the, you know, driving through and it's just beautiful. It was just, and then you see some, you know, some farmers on the side and I was just like, oh my God, this is so beautiful. And then before you know it, you drive in, you take a curve and this, this city just rises up to meet you, you know? And I was just like, okay, this is not what I expected. And we're driving through and it's this bustling city. It's not like Saigon, right? There, I mean, there are scooters, but it's, it's, it's, it's a slower pace, but it's not slow, right? Don't think it's country. It's not. And then there's still the food, the markets, everything, but it's just a different feel. I, you know, I was thinking about this the other day and it was maybe it's more of a calming city where, and you know, and I think I mentioned it, you could see the difference, right? In our tour guides, like Thuy is very high energy and our Dalat tour guide, he's very high energy too, but there's also a calmness about him. And I, and you can actually relate that to Dalat because that's how it is. It's this bustling city, but there's this underlying calmness about it as well, you know? And it was, I have to say it was beautiful. It was very lush. There's commerce, but not like you see in Saigon where it's just hustle, bustle. You know, the streets are cleaner, I believe. And the people are friendlier, I think, right? They're less city because I live in the city. I get it, right? They were just, you know, it was an amazing experience. And then there's this fog that I just, it's probably one of the most peaceful things I've ever seen. You have this hustle and bustle of the city and then you see like this layer of fog, just kind of like, and it's just, it's such a contrast, I think, the city is because there's this calmness about it, but then there's also a lot of activity going on. I loved it and the climate was different. Saigon was hot. Yeah, Saigon is just hot. I mean, I remember I just continually sweat. And, but Delac, it's warm, right? They call it cold. Our tour guides wearing a jacket. It was kind of funny, right? And here I am in shorts and a tank top, you know. But there is just, there's a difference humanity about the city that's different from the larger, more hustle and bustle. I agree. You know, and, and it's beautiful. And there's a lot more colonial architecture, I believe is, is the right way to say it, right? Well, colonial and there's also a lot of French, there's more European influence. Yes. Yeah. 34:52 Kerry Newsome And it's very pretty. It's, it's a pretty city. Did you see the purple? Very hilly. 35.00 Vicki Thai Yeah, it's very hilly, right? And I just, I tell you what, and it was just a different feel. It's a city. Don't get me wrong. It's not country. There's nothing country about it, right? It was beautiful. And I think it's like Saigon, you have to really hustle and get to where you need to be. I think Dalat, you could really dilly dally and linger and just, you know, walk and enjoy the scenery. I think that is more expected and accepted in Dalat than you would have in Saigon. 35:26 Kerry Newsome I'll tell you what I know about it and see whether it matches up with you. It's, it's very well known to be a romantic city. So a lot of Vietnamese go there. And if it's got the vibe that you're talking about, they go there for the honeymoons. So ,it's chosen for a lot of Vietnamese as their honeymoon resort place to visit. And I think that's also because it's cooler. So that kind of helps. And it's very pretty. And they've got the beautiful lake and they've got that purple restaurant there. I don't know whether you remember that. I remember that. Yeah. But the other things that I noticed about it was its fruit and the size of the fruit. And they do a lot of things like jams and things like that, which is really unusual for Vietnam, but it's one of the very few places. There was strawberries the size of apples. They would just, I couldn't believe them. Like one strawberry would consume me like one apple. It was just, and you know how you love the pineapple in the Mekong Delta? Well, to me, those strawberries, if I could have taken them home with me, I would have. And then they have beautiful gardens and they have beautiful flowers and they have what they call their “Everlastings. And these are flowers that are said to never die. Now I thought like someone's pulling my leg here, like seriously, but these flowers are real flowers. They're not imitations, but they are said to never die. Why or how? There's a mystery behind it. I never got to the bottom of it, but you're right. In the hills, the beautiful scenery, beautiful scenery, and I got to visit some of the waterfalls. And my favorite waterfall was Pongour. That's P-O-N-G-O-U-R. If I was sending people to Dalat, I would definitely be sending them into the hills. So talk a little bit about your stay. 37:43 Vicki Thai Yeah. So we stayed, I forget the name. You're going to jump in and tell me what that accommodation was in Dalat. Ana Mandara. It was a dream. I tell you what, if you think of a, number one, the service was impeccable and they have their reception center. It's actually a built out. There are no doors. You just walk in there, seating with pillows. It is, I tell you what, it is when you think about where you go to relax. And I could really see this be a honeymoon place, like you mentioned, just because there's this romantic feel about it. Everything is just serene. It's calm and the decor was impeccable. And the people were just unfathomably nice. I just could not believe it. I mean, talk about service. And so there are, this is actually where French soldiers, I believe, during the war, they built it for them. And so there are these individual cottages throughout the resort. And that's where your accommodations are. Right. And so they actually have someone who drives a golf cart, who takes you to where you're staying. And then you walk up these stairs where ours were upstairs. And then you walk in, you go up to your room and you walk in. And it's like this paradise, dreamy. There's this king size bed. The furnishing was impeccable. There are these, what are they called? The little curtains above your bed? The netting for the mosquitoes. Yeah, the netting. And it was, I would, I tell you what, whoever redid it and designed it, props to them because, and it was just so comforting. It was so serene. And then they give you, like you mentioned, the fruit, a plate of fruit, local fruit there, the wax apples, which we don't have a lot in the U.S. And I opened up the balcony door and then you just see the whole resort. And it was, I tell you what, if anyone's going to Latt, that is a good accommodation to really feel that you're in the middle of it, the culture. Right. Because I sent you the videos, I woke up at six in the morning, opened my balcony, walked out and there was like, it was, you see the beautiful trees and everything, but there's this, there's this fog that moves around and the smell, the sound, everything. And it was because of my mom's knee surgery, we had to ask them to bring the golf cart. I tell you what, I call front desk and I said, Hey, listen, we're heading to the dining hall for breakfast. She's like, okay, we'll be there. They are there literally in like three minutes, three minutes. I mean, talk about service, right? In the U.S. we're like, if they get here in 10, we're good. But three minutes, so how else? Yeah. And then like after dinner, we had the staff at the restaurants, I mean, after breakfast, Hey, will you call them? We need right back. Two minutes. It was impeccable service. The accommodations were impeccable. The food was amazing. And the room size. Oh, the room size. Massive, isn't it? Like I lived in places that size. Yes. Yes. And here's the thing too. It is very, it is not what you, it's not the developing country luxury. It is modern Western, what you would expect luxury. And so I think if any of your guests want somewhere where it's romantic, because here's the thing, I think no matter what time of day it is in Dalat, it's going to be romantic, right? Just because it's that kind of city. You should stay there just because, and there's a lot of privacy too. And it's just, I just imagine walking through the side box that they have that's so paved and in the morning with the fog, I mean, how much more romantic could that get, right? And the food, I mean, everything that we ate is very local. They had a jam, a mulberry jam that they actually, I think, picked not far from where. That's so I was saying to you about the jams. Like, yeah, who would think of Vietnam and jam? Like, yeah, yeah. And mulberry jam, right? And so yeah, but it's, it is just one of those accommodations. I loved it. I thought it was beautiful. I, and everything was mull weight. And I think one of the things I want to throw out there, I purchased plug converters, power converters, two of them, just to take every accommodation that we went to had the the US accommodation, the two prongs. So I never had to use it, which was a huge surprise to me. And it kind of tells you how developed Vietnam is becoming. 42:22 Kerry Newsome That's really good to note. It's something I haven't thought to mention, because I have to take converters from Australia, because ours is different. Yeah, now that's really good to mention. When I think of Dalat I think of that lushness and that, and the fog and the architecture and the lake and the purple. But the other thing to share with you about Dalat which I don't know whether you went to, the markets are specialised in fabrics. So people often go just to Dalat to the markets because they are well known in all of Vietnam to specialise in fabric. So I have bought fabric there to have made, to have something made in Hoi An. And in Hoi An, they told me, oh, if you want this and you want that kind of fabric, and you've got to go to Dalat for that. So it was one of the things that I did was to investigate. And in these markets, there was just like flaws and flaws of all this fabric. It was overwhelming, the different I didn't even know that many variances existed of different types of fabric. And then they also have, because the traditional dress, the alzai, which I've got a few of, because I love them. I think they're a beautiful garment, really elegant, really lovely. Well, they have some of the materials that are used for the alzai, where you know how the top part might be plain, but then the bottom part will have some kind of image or decoration or just on the flow embroidery. So they have lots and lots and lots of that. So I was buying all this stuff and I was with a Vietnamese girlfriend of mine. She said, how many alzais are you going to have made? For God's sake, you're never going to wear that many of them. And I found it hard to kind of resist because it was so beautiful. And so I only bought two to have made, but yes, it was charming. I went up into the hills and I stayed at a chalet and it was called Zen Chalet. And get this Vicky, you will laugh at this. The situation with the chalet was the guy that owned it was from Europe, came to De Laet fell in love obviously with that architecture. And he just wanted to have this chalet overlooking this beautiful forest area like just, and the air was so sweet and so beautifully clean. And he didn't fill out a piece of paper because it was called Zen. So I said, but how do you know what I'm going to have? He said, all the girls will remember. And I said, yeah, but I had a massage as well. Yeah, it'll be fine. Like they never took any anything. It was crazy. That's amazing. Because they wanted you to Zen out. That was the whole idea of you stay there to Zen out, take in the environment, go for a walk, rest. We had a massage person come to our room and do the massage. And you know, the curtains opened out into this beautiful thing. I'm going, I'm in heaven. I just want to die right now because it was so good 45:59 Vicki Thai .. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we at the resort, we went and got massages as well. And here's the thing. I get massages here all the time. It's a different, you know, feel, but we're getting a massage there. Can you hear the birds? You know, and it's just like, literally, am I in heaven? Right? Where it's like, you're getting a massage, which is a luxury. And then you're in this, you know, the smell, and then you just hear nature where, you know, I love the city life, but what I hear is cars zooming by. And so it's just, I would say, and I also, our tour guide in Saigon says that when they go on vacation, her family goes on vacation. They actually go to the lab. She said they sleep better there. Yeah. And, and here's the thing too. And it rained overnight when we stayed there. And I tell you what, there was just something so beautiful about it because you're in this environment. You smell the air. Like you said, it's sweet. And then you just hear this rain. It's like, it's like what you feel that, and then people advertise as relaxing, you know, that this is what you want to do to, you know, de-stress to, you know, unplug all of that stuff. And I have to say the food in the lot was a little bit different. It's a little bit sweeter. I don't know if you noticed that. So they, they seasoned their food a little bit sweeter than you would get in Saigon. 47:19 Kerry Newsome Yes. So talk to me now about how your mom related to being back in Dalat and what did she notice were the most significant changes, you know, how, how did she react to the Dalat of 2023? 47:45 Vicki Thai It's so funny. She was in awe because everywhere she lived, they took us around the city because the goal was to find where she, where she grew up, the house where she grew up. And that Dalat and Vietnam is so developed now. We literally, and I say props to the driver. God bless him. He just drove us around and around hoping my mom recognizes where she lives, but she doesn't because everything is so new now. I mean, you have to admit she was 31 then she's 75 now, right? And so a lot's going to change then. And we kind of find it, but I tell you what, just she was in awe and she was just like, Oh, is that where it was? Like the open market where she went when she was little, she loved it. And all I was thinking is like, where is your house? Cause we've been around the circle like five times, right? She loved it. It brought back so many memories. And then just driving the street and she was an odd too, right? Because when she was growing up, it was a completely different city. And now there's just so much going on and she's my mom and I've seen her happy, but this was a different kind of happy and almost a peaceful happy, you know, just because it's back to where she was, you know, grew up and, and just seeing, I don't know, I can't explain it, but the city has grown and I just love watching, there were people selling raw meat, you know, on the side of the road. I even said to, he said to Dr. Torga, I said, when you eat that, do you get sick? Right? Because in the U S and Western culture, there are a lot of, you know, food, you know, there's a lot of different, uh, thresholds that you have to for your, for your meat and stuff. And he was like, well, when I eat it, I'm fine. I'm not sure if you eat it, you're going to be fine. Right. She says, because the U S has different standards and it was just seeing that. And here's the thing. What I wouldn't have done if we had the time to just walk around, you know, to walk past the style that's selling raw meat, right out in the open, right? Not in a refrigerated case to, to look at the fruit. So then, and it was, so I tell you what, my mom was so happy. She, I just remember on our last day, we were sitting and eating and she looked right at me. She's like, I want to come back. I'm like, well, hell me too. Right! 49:55 Kerry Newsome . You know, I kind of felt for your mom in the sense that it's kind of life affirming to go back to your roots, to, you know, see where you came from. It kind of, I think everyone in their life kind of has to do a full circle at some point to, to relate to why you are, how you are, where you come from. And you know, her saying to you during the time, you know, well, you, if you knew where I came from, you would better understand something. So that's kind of the older, wiser woman kind of giving you that advice. I think, you know, I think it was a lovely, and the thing I loved about you, that you wanted to do that with her, you wanted that bond and that closeness. Because as you say, in the ordinariness of every day, you know, come say, come sah! You don't do it. But when you're doing something purposeful like that, you know, and that's going back to something that she relates to, and she's got that comfort with her own language. She's with her own people. Like, you can totally get it, can't you? 50:54 Vicki Thai Like, Right. Well, it's kind of funny. I came back and I said, you know, if we were in Vietnam, mom would be the cool mom. Yeah, she would be the mom where all the kids would come to, you know, and it was just like, just because it was just the way everyone, our tour guides gravitated towards her, like Tui gravitated towards her, you know, Jonathan and, um, Hi from the Latin art driver. And I was just like, it was the side that I've never seen, right in the US. And so it was just like, it was, she was in her element. There were some things that I wanted to buy, like some jam, right? Some, some, a lot of coffee, right? Some tea, right? Cause the last 51:38 Kerry Newsome no for tea. So we did a lot of shopping, but we didn't do a lot of slicing. Oh, okay. So, cause I had you down, you were going to go into the Zen monastery and you were going to do the summer palace. Did you do any of that? Or did the shopping take over? 51:51 Vicki Thai Is that the one, is that the one where the last king? Yes, we did go there. Yes. Yes. All right. We did. It was impressive. And this is a history and here's the thing. It was impressive because all of this is surrounded just one man, right? And it was like, are you kidding me? Right. And, and I've actually, I think the story was a little bit sad. I really felt sad for his wife. Right. I remember the story. There's so many stories. Yeah. There's so many stories that he apparently very handsome. When I looked at the picture, she remembered him. She's like, isn't he handsome? I'm like, not my type, but it was cute who was so handsome. And, you know, he was a king or so powerful that he attracted a lot of women. And he had an affair and his wife, of course, is broken hearted. And there was just this room that she just stayed in because she was so broken hearted. And I just thought to myself, holy cow, you know, this day and age, we're like, we're getting divorced, right? It's over. But she just stuck with him because she just loved him so much. But then she had a room where 53:02 Kerry Newsome she grieved in and it's like, God bless her. You know what I mean? And so she had all these children that she had to keep up with and put on the show. But yet she was broken hearted through this whole thing. As we kind of getting close to literally when you're about to fly back to Saigon to meet up with your flight back home, we took you to Baloch and that was kind of, let's put it, let's put it out there, Vicki. That was kind of where things fell off the rails a little bit. We had you down to stay in a bungalow resort. I wouldn't call it a resort particularly, but it was supposed to be okay. But as it turned out, it wasn't okay, was it? So that kind of put it down on things. And that was the bit I was kind of most disappointed about. But maybe tell a little bit about that story because there's been so much good things. I don't want this one to be the last thing that people remember, if you know what I mean, because that was- Yeah, absolutely. And for the record, this was the only- Glitch. 54:08 Vicki Thai Let's say glitch. It was only glitch. And when I look back, this is not what I think of when I look back at our trip. And so we went to a little city in the suburb of Dalat named Bao Loc because my mom actually was born there. And so we wanted to see what it's all about, right? And it's an opportunity for her to go see where she grew up in her city and the main city part, where the commerce is, she remembers that very well. Where we stayed at, it's called the Danbury and- It's remote . It's an hour drive and it's through the forest, right? It's a beautiful drive, don't get me wrong, but it was very, very remote. And in its better days, it was actually kind of an amusement park, and there's a pond in it and so forth. So we get in, so we have two accommodations. My mom and I have separate rooms as normal. It was very basic. And when I say basic, I mean basic. It was a bed, an old blanket. And so we walked in and I was in my mom's room, thank God was in better condition than mine. I walked in, there was just this old blanket on this flat bed and there were these, there's stains on it. They were kind of sticky stains, which of course you avoid. And after coming from the accommodations in Saigon, our luxury cabin on the cruise in Mekong Delta and Dalat this was really an eyesore and it's drastically different. I don't think it was well-kept, maybe during COVID, as we spoke about, everything shut down and things got overlooked or fell through the cracks. But the bathroom, it was nothing I've ever seen before. And I hope I won't ever see again. I text one of our contacts at the travel agency and said, we want to get out of here as soon as possible, right? Because our tour guide and driver were expected to pick us up around 10 the next morning. They were there at 5.30. I said, still get out of here the better. Yeah. So I packed up my stuff at five in the morning, moved to my mom's bungalow and then our tour guides came around seven, which is perfect, right? And then we just got the hell out of Dodge. But would I recommend a Danbury? Probably not, right? 56:26 Kerry Newsome No, I won't be recommending it either. But it speaks to the contrast in Vietnam from the areas that are developed and obviously have more stringent controls around how they appear to tourists. But in some of these remote areas, it can be a bit of a lucky dip. And unfortunately, I guess to everyone listening, it's fair to say that some things are just out of your control. And thankfully, Vicki was able to handle it as best as you could. And I'm grateful for that. I just wish it didn't happen. I think it's something for people to double check when they're talking to their travel agents or they're questioning with me if they're talking about a particular area. I learned from it to be double checking these remote areas more so. I mean, you love the hotel, the new world you stayed at in Saigon. So I probably did the wrong thing. I set it up badly. See, I gave you all those beautiful places. And then you got there and you got to the flushing toilet place and you went what happened here? She steered me in the wrong direction. So let's not do that detour again. We will if we take you back to Dulat ever again, we'll keep you in Dulat and probably at Anna Mandara. So you'll have to do that hour drive. But that's funny talking about places out of Dulat. They are quite long drives to get the full benefit of being in that region. And it is hard to find places. That's why me stumbling on that Zen cafe chalet place was like, holy, this is like a little oasis in the middle of it all. And because there's just not that many of them that can sustain themselves that far out. So that's why everybody's in the city. And Dulat has grown exponentially in the last few years. It really wasn't even on the tourist maps for most people. 58:37 Vicki Thai They didn't even know about Dalat four years ago. We wouldn't have ever done if my mom didn't grow up there. Because I would probably pick the bigger cities. But yeah, it was our first trip. And I remember all I told you is this is where we definitely want to go because my mom grew up there. And you put the rest of the trip together, which was phenomenal. Because I would never have said, let's do the Mekong Delta. Because I've 59:04 Kerry Newsome never been there. I don't know. But the whole trip was phenomenal. If you had some tips for my listeners, like for their first time trip to Vietnam, what would they be and we can finish 59:18 Vicki Thai up on those? Sure. I would say do not overpack. Because I tend to always overpack. Just because like when we stay at a New World Hotel in Saigon, which was that is the hotel we'll stay at every single time because the service, the food, everything, it was beautiful, it was clean. It was central. They have cheap laundry. Like, you know, Kara, you and I discussed before our trip, I said, is there laundry service? And you even said, don't overpack, right? Because it's really easy. It's really cheap. And of course I overpacked. And you know, the laundry service was incredible. And it was very inexpensive. And even if you rush it, it's still inexpensive. And they bring it to your room, all folded and nice. It was amazing. Secondly, try everything. You want the experience, right? If you're coming from the US, you know, don't go to a KFC, even though I'm sure KFC is a little bit different, you know, in Vietnam, try the local foods. Go with what your tour guide recommends as you know, what we did is we asked our tour guide Tui, I said, I really wanted this, you know, congee, right? This jiupe, this rice soup. And I said, where is, where should we go? She took us to the one that she and her family always goes to. And it was delicious. It was amazing. And so, you know, trust your tour guides, right? And you know, something that and one of things that everyone talks about is, oh, it's a developing country. I hope I don't get sick, right? I eat something wrong. I hope I don't get sick. I tell you what, I didn't get sick once while we were there. And I basically ate everything I could get my hands on, just because I wanted to try everything. And so, you know, my thing is, don't be afraid to try new foods. Don't be afraid to go to different places. Because I remember when we went to the, where the VKONG, the war, I'm just like, I'm not a history buff. I don't even know where we're going. But it was an amazing experience, because that's part of the heritage. It's like, this is what they did to defend the country, right? They lived underground for years in these cramped little places, right? And then with this heat and everything. And so it's be open minded. Try everything. Trust your tour guides, right? Because I don't care what you say, you know, we talk about people who it's just a job with every single one of our tour guides and drivers. It was not that for them. They wanted to make sure that you were taken care of. You enjoy your time and you were safe, right? And, and you know, thirdly, go to Vietnam, you will not regret it. And since I've been back, everyone that I've spoken to, I have said, if you get a chance, go to Vietnam. And I know exactly who you could, you know, help book your trips. And then also the beauty of it. Yeah, exactly. And also the beauty of it too. Even if you don't know the language, your tour guide speaks English. So you're not, I would say go to Vietnam, try everything. And next time I go, I think, because I've seen so many beautiful dresses in the window, I'm going to go in and try on some dresses and find dress. But did you feel safe? Did you feel safe? Oh, I absolutely felt safe. Not for an instant. Regardless of where we're at, Mekong Delta, the lot fallout, right? Or Saigon. I never felt unsafe. Never. And, and, you know, it's just, you know, and like I said, the tour guides are there to take you around and to love their city, not to take you a place where you feel unsafe and you get robbed. Right? And so I say, trust it. I trust the process. Trust. This is what I'll tell you. If you took a trip to Vietnam, you will never regret it. And I'm 100% sure that you'd want to go back because there's so much more to see. 01:02:44 Kerry Newsome Vicki, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for being my client. Thank you for being understanding about our glitch. I'm just glad you had a good time. I'm glad your mum enjoyed it as well. And I just feel very lucky to have met you. If I didn't do this podcast and I wouldn't have got to meet you. So just want to thank you and, and for your time today. 01:03:05 Vicki Thai say thank you and, and for your time today. Thank you so much. Thank you for being so understanding with everything.

S5-E4 - Exploring the Case for living and working in Vietnam S5- E4 - Exploring the Case for Living and Working in Vietnam 00:01Kerry Newsome Xin chào and welcome to What About Vietnam? Becoming an expert and traveling and working abroad, I think most of us would appreciate can be a life-changing decision with numerous benefits and I guess some challenges along the way. I'm delighted today to be talking with Kate Boardman and we're going to explore the case for becoming an expat in Vietnam. Now, Kate's very qualified to speak on this topic, having lived in Vietnam twice for extensive periods of time. A little bit about Kate before we kick off. Kate's almost 36 years old, from a small town in Western Massachusetts. She's lived abroad in 10 different countries, including the US, Germany, France, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Bahrain, Australia, Bali and Guatemala for a total of 14 years. It's staggering to note she's traveled to 53 countries. Kate, as I mentioned, lived in Vietnam twice for two and a half years. six months in 2012 and two years in 2014 to 2016. She's traveled back to visit several times, most recently in November. She says in no uncertain terms, Vietnam is one of her favorite countries of all time. She's worked as a teacher at international schools and as a gap year instructor. She's now back home growing a dynamic travel content creation business under the name Wildcat Wanders. Links to that and for you to contact her directly will be provided in the show notes. As one of the aspects of coming on this show, she really hopes to inspire others to live, study, work and travel overseas. Kate, it's a delight to have you on the show. And I look forward to chatting with you. Welcome to What About Vietnam 02:05Kate Boardman Thank you so much, Kerry, for having me. I'm delighted to be here. This is really exciting. 02:10Kerry Newsome You know, Kate, I'm sure my listeners are keen to know just what makes Vietnam a good choice for an extended working stay. So let's start there. 02:22Kate Boardman So I'm actually hesitant to recommend Vietnam so much for fear of over-tourism, because it's really such a special and unique place. And I just hope that what I've seen in other countries around the world where over-tourism has become a thing won't happen to Vietnam because it is so unique. But at the same time, it's one of the most amazing places that I've been. And I also feel that everyone should see it. So it's kind of this I don't know how much to recommend it but there are so many amazing things and I think For me, what stands out the most about it is that there's no place like it, especially in Southeast Asia. A lot of the countries, of course, they have their own personalities and aspects that make them amazing. But a lot of them can be a little bit same, same, but different as the saying in Southeast Asia goes. But Vietnam is truly its own place. And I think what makes it so special is the people. They're super friendly, but also ruthless, and they know what they want and how they want it. And they're very direct. Obviously, culturally, the country has been through a lot, a lot of wars, a lot of situations in the past. And so they kind of just do what they want and say what they want. And I really admire that about the people. I think what also makes it special is that life really takes place on the streets. And so you're just surrounded by this fascinating culture and vibrancy all the time. You look outside and there's the ladies with the conical hats and their matching pajamas and the honking of the motorbikes and all of the smells from the food and this organized chaos of the motorbikes and traffic. So it's just, you can't escape it. So when you're traveling there, you just really feel that you're somewhere different. The food is amazing, you know, both local food and Western food. I've got loads of friends who have lived there long term from other countries and they've opened up restaurants that have been really successful with really delicious Western food for an affordable price. And then obviously, you know, you can eat for two to three dollars a delicious bowl of pho or banh mi. And there's so many amazing types of food that change with each region of Vietnam that you visit, too. 04:46Kerry Newsome I think what fascinates me, which I think is in line with what you're saying, is that the street life is so dynamic in the sense that there is old and new residing alongside each other. As you say, conical hats next to you know, very well established buildings and fancy coffee shops and, you know, boutiques and things. But then, you know, a little bit further down the street, there's a little bit more of history that you can see still alive and well and happening. And the smells, for some people, Kate, I've got to say those smells are a little bit overwhelming. And, you know, you've got to tune your nose. But I think you and I have both visited a fair few places in Southeast Asia, and I don't find Vietnam as bad as some others. So, maybe my nose is just tuned to it. But yeah, for some, I think it's a little bit overwhelming. And then, of course, there's the motorbikes. which I think everybody gets a little bit overwhelmed by and a little bit taken back by how to cross the streets and all of that kind of stuff gets talked about and people become quite nervous about it. So, talk to us a little bit about that frenetic life. I mean, you've spent most of your time, as I understand, I think in Hanoi? 06:19Kate Boardman Yeah, so I lived there for two and a half years. I've travelled the country from top to bottom. Obviously, there's so many places that I haven't been to explore yet, but I've been to all the main ones, you know, like Hoi An and Sapa and Saigon. But yeah, I think what makes Hanoi special as well is that there's this love-hate relationship. And like you said, the honking, the motorbike traffic, those are all things that are super frustrating. And it's funny because each day living there, you might die like five times a day just trying to cross the street or get yourself to work. You know, and people will always joke about that, but it's like if you can't beat them, join them. And so, having a motorbike as frustrating as it can be in the traffic is also one of the funniest things about living there and cruising around on your motorbike. amazing sense of freedom. And it's really fun once you kind of get to know the rules or lack thereof of the traffic. And, you know, if you want to go through a stoplight, you just got to beep. If you want to drive down a one-way street going the opposite way, you just got to beep. If you want to drive up on a sidewalk, you can, you just have to beep. And so it's kind of fun once you feel confident enough to do all of those things. .07:37Kerry Newsome Yeah, and then you can pull up right at the front door of the shop or the restaurant or the cafe or wherever and you can park your bike and get off your bike and either someone will kind of park it for you for, you know, a few dong or you can just, you know, put the pedal down and take your helmet off and off you go, you know. I haven't seen you know, as yet, the parking stations that absolutely take over my cities here in Australia, and I'm sure you're the same in the US. So, you know, those little nuances, those little differences, I think also keep that spark alive, keep that kind of difference alive, which is quite energizing in itself. Kate, I want to take you down the route now of talking about getting a job and doing some research and just looking at the option to have an extended stay in Vietnam and working in Vietnam. Talk to us a little bit about how that was for you. 08:47Kate Boardman So the first time I moved there was 2012. So things have obviously changed a lot since then. And for whoever's looking to move there, it would obviously be important to research the ever-changing visa laws and regulations. I know that they're making new changes and that those do change a lot. Oftentimes, depending on who you're going to be working for, if it's an international school or an organization, they would most likely sponsor your visa. So if that's not going to happen, you need to be aware of if you're going to need to be doing visa runs or anything like that. I went there having a job lined up. So that was a little bit easier because I knew exactly where I was going. So the first time that I moved there, I was teaching at a bilingual school. A lot of the expats that are there are teachers, most are working in language centers teaching English as a foreign language, but there are also international schools where you can teach, you know, whatever subject you would teach back home, but over there, which is what I did as well. you've just got to be careful with finding a reputable organization or school. I think the problem with Southeast Asia in general and even in the world is that education has become such a business and there's a lot of schools that are popping up, you know, with the buzzwords that are popular in education at the moment, whether that's Montessori or Reggio Emilia or Waldorf, but it's really just a business or a marketing buzzword to attract parents, but the school doesn't actually embody that concept. So you've got to be really careful with who you're working for and how they're conducting business. So there's a lot of Facebook groups for expats that are moving there, especially for teaching English to find out and to, you know, do a little bit of research, ask for feedback from other teachers who've worked there. So that's a great way to get insight. If you're working at international schools, there are websites like International School Review, where you can do a little bit of research ahead of time to make sure that the school is legit. So I definitely recommend doing your due diligence. and also making sure that you have the right qualifications to be able to work legally in the country and for those places. But now with the digital nomad kind of popularity happening, there's a lot of other ways that you could work and and live there. So if you are able to work, you know, from home on your laptop, then I think it's a great place to be able to go. And, you know, living in Hoi An by the beach is an amazing option, you know. So and I think that there's a lot of co-working spaces that are opening up to be able to provide the right kind of internet connection that you need. So I know that the whole expat scene is definitely going to be changing over the next few years of people being able to do more than just teaching or working for an embassy, which is kind of what the past was like. 11:44Kerry Newsome Yes, and I think it's a developing economy and I see a lot of trade and relationships between countries growing and certainly since things have changed with China. I think, you know, there's more opportunities in the industry sector and working with different chambers of commerce that I get the chance to do, I see a lot more of that. So, I totally agree with you. In fact, I've just done a podcast talking about becoming a digital nomad in Hoi An and talking to a guy who runs the hub in Hoi An, which As you say, if you're going to pick a nice place to set up your laptop and operate digitally for work, and that pays you a salary, well, all the better. So, as you say, I think since 2012, and because I also have a lot of contact with expats over there, the opportunities for jobs has increased, but doing your due diligence is absolutely imperative. There was a time there where there was a lot of people that were going there to retire, and they took up the majority of expat kind of locations and, you know, but COVID kind of unfortunately stripped a lot of those people out and it has become much stricter for people to get the right sponsorship and get things like, you know, a temporary residency card which they need to have for the certain benefits to live in the country. So, you know, as you say, there's a lot going on in that space and doing your research, talking to other expats and hearing from you, I know is going to really help. 13:45Kate Boardman Now they're being much more specific on the qualifications and certifications you need. You know, you should have a TEFL, potentially a college degree. So there's definitely, they're upping the calibre for teachers that they're allowing to teach their students. And I think that that's important because a lot goes into teaching. So you should kind of have a little bit of background if you're putting someone else's education in your hands. 14:10Kerry Newsome And it's a good point. And you're right. And I think there was a lot of opportunities for people that, yes, had good conversational English skills and could get away with it. But as you say, unless you've got a TEFL or you've got some kind of degree in, you know, dip ed or, you know, educational degree, you're just not going to make the grade now. So that's good. I'm glad you mentioned that. Kate, I want to take you down the path of just how it was for you and talking about just immersing yourself into Vietnamese day-to-day life as it is so very different from, you know, us Westerners and, you know, how we start and finish our days. So, can you talk to us a little bit about just, you know, was it easy for you to kind of immerse yourself in Vietnamese day-to-day life? 15:05Kate Boardman So I think the thing, the most important thing is, if you're an expat, you're always going to be a foreigner. And we kind of live in this in between place of never really ever fitting in again in our own home because we've seen the world and broadened our perspective in ways that people from home might not be able to really relate to. But then we're also never going to fully fit in in the culture where we're moving. We can do our best to learn the language and learn about the culture as much as we can and have as many local friends as we want. But I'm 5'11 and a tall, curvy white girl, so I'm clearly not going to blend in. to the streets of Hanoi. So you're always going to maybe get some inquisitive looks. A lot of the shopkeepers, I'd go into stores to look at clothes. 15:58Kerry Newsome I know what you're going to say. 16:01Kate Boardman Oh, yeah, the amount of times that they'll like, grab your arm and literally, like, shake it and be like, No, no, no, like, you too fat, you're too fat, like, and I'm like, No, but I wear a medium, like, I know that this is gonna fit me. And they would refuse to even let me try it on. And it would be like an H&M shirt that's immediate, you know, I buy this back home, I know it's gonna fit, no They won't let you. So you've got to have a bit of a thick skin to get by. And also, if you are single and you are past the age of 28, you are expired milk. So I would constantly get asked on a daily basis from my Vietnamese co-workers, are you married? Do you have a boyfriend? Why not? Like, what's wrong with you? And now like 10 years later, I'm still single. So they're really going to wonder what's wrong with me. But no, I think as far as immersing yourself, it's a really easy place to kind of get adjusted. You know, you can move there on a Monday and by the weekend have friends, a place to live, a motorbike. You know, I think the expat scene is extremely welcoming and the Vietnamese as well. So it takes Moving anywhere takes time to adjust. There's always that initial culture shock that you have to go through, figuring out where to buy things. And luckily, that has changed drastically in the 10 years. So in 2012, you know, finding contact solution, For example, you couldn't just go to the grocery store, which is where I would buy contact solution from back home, or the pharmacy. You had to go to Glasses Street in the old quarter to find the street that sells glasses, and then there was maybe one contact shop, and those contact shops sold the contact lens solution. It was a mission to find something that you would think would just be an easy enough thing to find. But now, there's so much convenience there. you know, loads of Facebook groups like Hanoi Massive, where, you know, if you need to know where to find something, there's answers, there's grab delivery. So basically, anything that you want, you can have delivered, you know, at the snap of a finger. So that has definitely changed and made things a lot more convenient and easy to navigate. And like I said, with all the Facebook groups, there's groups such as Hanoi Beautiful. So if you're moving there and wondering, you know, where can I go get a haircut? Where can I get my nails done? Where can I, you know, what's a reputable doctor, there's all of that information there, which wasn't necessarily there before. So I think that definitely makes a huge difference. Language is definitely challenging. Obviously, it's tonal. So I think even if you're able to learn a lot, you know, you could still be saying the wrong thing. You know, you could be saying penis or pomelo. They mean the same or it's the same word, but if you say it wrong, you could be ordering the wrong thing at the market. 18:57Kerry Newsome Yeah, but I know exactly what you're saying. And I know I got warned. My boss at the time, her name was spelt T-H-U-Y, which is pronounced “twee”. But if you say “tui” it actually means poop. So, you want to be really careful how you say that then. I'm not surprised that you're mentioning a lot about Facebook groups. For a time there, I really thought that Vietnam was run by Facebook. Like everything, every place, seems to have a Facebook page. And the beautiful part about that is, even though it may be in Vietnamese, you can still message it in English and then you get someone at the other end that messages you back in English and responds. I can, you know, book a hair appointment, Talk to my tailor. I can do a hundred things through Facebook. It's just amazing, isn't it? 20:08Kate Boardman Right. And I think as far as countries in South East Asia go, the level of English in Vietnam is definitely up there. especially now compared to a few years ago, there's such a push for young Vietnamese students to go to bilingual or international schools, to go to all these language centers. There's a huge push in the country for them to study abroad as well, which has its flaws, you know, even though as an international teacher, have obviously benefited from working at these schools. I hope that it doesn't take over their own culture by becoming so Western and so capitalistic that they're trying to, you know, be like the US or other countries in the West where they lose their own identity. 20:57Kerry Newsome Mm, it's a good point. And I'm right with you, I don't really want it to change, yet I know in my heart of hearts it's going to, it's all ready. I mean, I've been going back and forth for 14 years, and even in that time, each time I go back, and I go back twice or three times a year, and even in between visits, things have happened, things have changed. So, it's a bit scary and it's growing fast, really, really fast. Let's get on to accommodation because as you say, that's gone through some drastic changes too. So, did you find anything more about that when you visited in November in contrast to what it was for you back in 2016? Yeah. 21:42Kate Boardman So, when I first lived there, I was paying... One of the cool things was that a lot of people live in house shares. So you get these big, beautiful villas, especially where I was living in the Tejo, Westlake area, which is kind of the more expat neighborhood of Hanoi. There's a lot more now that are popular, but that was definitely the most popular when I was there. And it still is. And so a lot of us would live in a shared house with about five people in a house. I met some of my best friends in the world that way. And it was really great to have that kind of family away from home. If you are moving to another country, it's a great way to live with other people, have a group of friends that we would have holiday dinners together and Monday nights. So it was really special. But we would pay about 250 US dollars for a room often with an en suite and a balcony. And like I said, that would have been in a big five bedroom house. I then lived in a Lakeview apartment with a beautiful balcony overlooking Tay Ho and the two bedroom would have been about 600 US dollars. A month. I think that now, a month. And I think that now that would easily be well over 1000. So I've just spoken to my one of my best friends just moved to Saigon. So she's going to be teaching at an international school. They've given her about 700 US dollars to find a two bedroom apartment. But she said that when she was looking the other day for the amenities that she would want, which would be a pool and a gym, she's looking about at about $1,000. So A lot. Those are definitely Western prices, but obviously you're not going to get a pool and a gym in your building for $1,000 in New York City. So it's comparable to what you're getting, but it's still really expensive to think that you could be paying that much in Vietnam compared to what we paid years ago. 23:42Kerry Newsome Yeah, absolutely. And I think the interesting thing that I've learned from expats too is, you know, in that shared house and in the accommodations that you have, your style of living is so different to Western, you know, like, you know, you don't have ovens and you're not there cooking and baking like you would be at home. You're mostly eating out because it's just so affordable and, you know, you've got maybe somebody to come in and do the cleaning and, as you say, access to the pool, to the gym. So, it's still quite comparable, isn't it? Western life, but how does it compare to the salary? Like, do you go there to save money, or do you go there as an expat to just be an expat and live in another country to experience another country, or do you actually come home with savings, or I don't know. I'm not quite sure what I want out of this answer, but yeah. 24:42Kate Boardman No, so this is a big thing to consider when you're looking to move abroad. So, especially having been a teacher in so many different countries, you kind of get to know the countries that pay really well, or that you're mostly living in for an experience. And it's often supply and demand. You think of the countries where people really often want to live, the pay is obviously going to be a little bit less because they know that you're going to want to move there, even if the salary is low, whereas countries that might not be as enticing are often going to pay you more because they want to attract people to get there, which is why at a time the Middle East was paying a ton of money. Now, obviously, people want to go and live there. so the salaries have kind of dropped to reflect that. But Vietnam, when I first, so my first job there, I was earning about $2,000 a month. And after paying for rent, a motorbike every month, or no, I think I bought my motorbike, but paying for a motorbike, eating out, essentially every single day, partying and going out every weekend, traveling on every holiday, I would easily save half of my salary without even thinking about it. So I think the most important thing to think about is your earning to savings ratio. It's not necessarily how much money you're making, but the quality of life you can live with that and the amount of money that you can save. So I definitely was able to save half of my salary. So Even though $2,000 a month is not a lot by Western standards, I would never have been able to save $12,000 in the US working a job that paid more just because of the cost of living. That would just not be possible. Now, obviously, with the cost of living having gone up in Vietnam, I think that that would be much more challenging. But I think the jobs also reflect that in their pay. So you can, and again, it's up to how you live, you know, if you are eating at a Western restaurant, every single day, you're going to be paying about seven to $10 for a meal. But if you're eating a bowl of pho, you're going to be paying about two to three So it depends on what you spend your money on. You can obviously get a cafe soda from a local cafe for a dollar, or you could go and have a latte at Starbucks for six. So it's how you choose to live your life. And I think the great thing about Vietnam is that you have that balance and you have those options to be able to live as cheaply and inexpensively as you want or to be as lavish as you want as well. 27:25Kerry Newsome Yeah, I mean, you're totally right. It's definitely a lifestyle choice and how you live because, you know, I know even myself, if I stay, you know, a couple of months, if I have an extended stay, I find myself totally flipping on the way I live over there to how I live back home. How I eat, what I do, where I go, and where my money doesn't go. So, it's not going on parking fees or tolls or, you know, the eating out is nowhere near as expensive as it is over there. I adore Vietnamese food. So, you know, I can get fed very well. I can get a grab bike for you know, so cheap to get where I want to go. So, you know, you're right. You've got to really weigh up those pros and cons and what the experience of travel and immersing yourself in that kind of culture is going to do for you. 28:25Kate Boardman Also, just one thing to add to that, like the price of being beautiful. I joke around with my friends all the time. I'm like, oh, you're so lucky. You can be, you can afford to be so much more beautiful there because, you know, I always just felt so much I don't know, you're able to afford, you know, getting your nails done, getting your hair done, getting massages, you know, on a weekly basis, whereas back in the States, I can't do that on a regular basis. So I joke with my friends, you know, because they've all got their lashes done and their eyebrows and everything is done all the time, you know, whereas I'm lucky if I go to get my nails done, you know, every couple of months. 29:06Kerry Newsome I'm totally with you. I reckon I lose 10 years in a trip to Vietnam. I always come back feeling absolutely refreshed. And I feel like a foreigner back in my own country. It's terrible. 29:19Kate Boardman Oh, yeah. Whenever I go, I get all the things done. I'm making appointments at all the places to do all the things. 29:26Kerry Newsome And I'd be having a massage after dinner two or three times a week. Right. You'd be rude not to. It's vagrant. I know. It's totally vagrant. I want to move on. I want to get into what did you struggle with the most? What were some of the biggest challenges you found? 29:48Kate Boardman Well, obviously this is going back a long time, so these wouldn't necessarily be struggles now, but the struggle of trying to figure out where to get things, which is obviously not an issue anymore. Hanoi specifically, when I first moved there, it was January and I do not recommend doing that. No. God no. No. And I had come from, so my initial plan when I moved to Asia was to stay in Thailand. That was the whole plan. I had a wardrobe packed for Thailand and then I randomly ended up getting a job that paid twice as much in Hanoi. So I moved there without any plan of actually moving there. and did not have the clothes, did not have the shoes, could not find the shoes that fit me. I wear a size US 10. So those didn't exist then. But um, it was freezing. And I'm from Massachusetts, which is in the northeast of the US, which we get a lot of snow here. And I've never been so cold in my life. Because The humidity is so high, it's about 75% to 80% humidity. And so that means that it is a wet cold that soaks you through to the bone. And you're not driving in your heated car to work, you're driving on your motorbike. So once you're cold, you are cold. And oftentimes the houses are not insulated. So it's actually colder inside of your home than outside on the streets. So I definitely battled with this. And then you go into Mouldy March. So all your clothes start to grow mould on them. That's really fun. Anything black. So all my black leather jackets and my black leather shoes were covered in mould. There's ways around this. You can get things like cedar chips for your closet or try to take care of your things if you know that Mouldy March is coming. But the weather was definitely challenging. So I actually hated Hanoi when I first lived there. I hated it so much because I was like, why did I leave? Why am I here? I was going through a really bad breakup at the time. And I'm just like, what have I done? I've left my relationship. And now I'm in this freezing cold place that didn't see the sun because it's cloudy. And it rained a lot at that time and was freezing. So I was like, OK, great. I've, you know, left sunny Thailand and now I'm here. And that really took a toll on me. But then when the weather is nice, you understand the magic and you realize why people love the place so much, which makes going through the winters way more bearable because you know, you've already fallen in love with the place. So when I moved back, it was a totally different experience because you know, the fall is absolutely gorgeous. The weather is perfect. The summer, you know, you can chill out in a pool and spend a lot of time outside. So there's, there's a lot of different times of year, but it's worth it. It's worth the cold rainy season. 32:55Kerry Newsome And, you know, people, they don't want to listen to me when I tell them about when to go and when not to go places. You know, and people say, oh, you know, we want to, we definitely want to see, we want to go to Halong Bay at the beginning of January. And I go, no, that would not be a good idea. You won't be able to go on deck. You'll be freezing. There's just not a puffer jacket built to sustain that cold in Hanoi and places like that. But everybody just has this perception that Vietnam is just this you know, hot country. It's just hot all year round. And it's just not, is it? And... Right. No, not in the North. No. And the weather in the North is very different to the weather in the South. So, when I'm crossing seasons, I either spend more time in the North, depending on what time of year, or more time in the south or the central area, just to meet the best weather, conditional to the experiences that I want to have. Because you can't do much when, you know, there's no use going to Hoi An in October, for instance, and you want to go snorkeling on the Cham Islands. because the boats don't run, the water's too cloudy, the weather's too crap. So, you know, it's really an important thing. And when I trip plan for people, I hate to have to down their aspirations, but I do want to keep it real for them because I don't want them to get there and go, oh, wow, this is terrible, you know. Kate, I want to just step into things like safety. You know, you're a gorgeous looking girl, you're there traveling on your own, working on your own, looking after yourself, sounding like very extremely well, but do you feel safe? Do you feel like you've got good either access to good people and systems and medical care and, you know, things like that to in regard to walking around at night, you know, all of that kind of stuff. Because there's some cities in the world, I would say, I wouldn't feel safe doing those kinds of things. I just wondered how it was for you. 35:19Kate Boardman No, absolutely. And that's definitely something to consider when you're moving abroad. So first of all, things can happen anywhere. And I have to tell this to my parents all the time. My mom is always worrying about me, like, oh, my God, be careful. You know, and it's like, yeah, everywhere you go, something can happen. You just have to have your wits about you and understand the culture of where you're going, first of all. So I, Vietnam is a very safe country and Southeast Asia in general is extremely safe for solo female travelers. It's one of the best places that you can travel as a woman alone, I would say. you've got such a prevalence of like the Buddhist culture and it's a very peaceful culture and peaceful people. I've been in situations, I remember I dropped like $50 out of my pocket in Seoul in Korea and somebody came running up to pick it up and hand it to me. Whereas in other countries in the world, that wouldn't happen. And the same thing would happen in Vietnam. If you left your wallet in a place, you know, oftentimes the shopkeeper would run after you to get you. That's not to say that things don't happen. You know, I've had situations and I actually got robbed in Saigon. I was coming home late at night. This would have been years ago when I was backpacking and was coming home late at night. I was walking with a couple of guys but somebody came up on a motorbike behind us and I had a crossbody bag on and they just snatched it and took off my camera, my money, everything. So you definitely have to be careful and I've heard certain areas of Saigon that you want to be careful not to wear a lot of gold flashy jewellery because they've got people that will ride around on the motorbikes and they'll pull them off of you, but you just have to know where you're going. And I wouldn't say that that's the overall energy of the city. You might find that in more of the backpacker places, but once you live there, it's kind of, you know what areas to avoid. So, for example, I had a friend that when she lived in Saigon, if she was going out to the district one backpacker area, she might just not wear her flashy gold or valuable jewellery, you know, or make sure that she has a bag that's secure on her. There are also situations where house robberies could happen. This did happen to several of my friends where people would actually climb up from the outside and could break into your house. But again, this is not the norm. These, of course, happen. And I think it's important for people to know that they are possibilities. But it's definitely not the rule. There are more exceptions to the rule. And overall, I always felt very safe in Vietnam. There are great medical facilities. Obviously, you want to do your research and know where to go. But I've had friends that have, you know, delivered babies. I've had friends that have gotten surgeries. You know, there are good medical facilities there if you need. And again, just do your research. So if you're moving to a place, get a feel for what are the best hospitals to go to if something should happen so that you know and are ready for should anything happen. With motorbike safety, it's extremely important to know how to drive a motorbike, I would suggest that you really feel confident knowing how to ride a motorbike. I learned in Thailand, which prepared me for Vietnam. I think if you've never driven a motorbike before, Vietnam might be a little bit of an intense place to try. So obviously finding a quiet area where you can practice is important because the traffic is crazy and it takes some getting used to, but it's an organized chaos and it does flow. Once you get the hang of it, you'll understand it. But it's also important to make sure that your insurance is going to cover you if you're in a motorbike accident. So this is really important. I think a lot of insurance companies, travel insurance companies will only cover you if you have a license. So you would need to figure out if you're going to stay there a long time how to get a Vietnam motorbike license. And if you don't have a license that you are driving a motorbike, that's no more than a 50 CC. So I actually own a Honda Cub. Those are my favorite motorbikes. They're adorable. They're vintage. They're super cute. Mine was named Penny Lane, and she was adorable, turquoise, and I loved her. But she was a 50 CC. And so that meant that if anything happened, it would have been covered under my insurance. And, um, I use a safety wing, so I've actually sent you a link. So if you want to share that, um, so safety wing is great for digital nomads for insurance, but yeah, those are definitely some things to be aware of, but no, overall the Vietnamese are extremely. Friendly. I feel safe there and, and the men are not creepy. I think this is important to, of course, you know, you might get some looks, but I've definitely been to other parts of the world where. you feel uncomfortable because you're getting stared at, or even in Egypt, the guys would chase you down the streets. In Guatemala, whenever they drive by, they're whistling or yelling something out the window. But Vietnam, you don't really feel that from the men there, which is really refreshing. So I think for women, that's important, and you don't feel that you're being stalked or perved on by these men. 41:09Kerry Newsome Yeah, and that's been my experience as well. I think, you know, it's a lot of common sense, I think, a lot of times, don't you think? That, you know, if you want to be flashy, if you want to kind of, you know, act like you haven't got your wits about you, you're in the wrong place at the wrong time kind of thing, you're either too drunk to know what you're doing, well, you know, anything can happen. And as you say, that could happen in any country. I think that it's important to note that. And, you know, like I travel like you on my own most of the time. I'm blonde. I'm short. So, the short aspect helps me a lot. because I don't stand out, but my blonde hair does stick out like the proverbial. But, you know, I'm a bit older, so I often get a lot of respect from the Vietnamese, and they are very cordial and very sweet to me. So, you know, I always feel quite special the way they treat me when I'm over there. I mean, just common courtesies that, you know, you don't get in Western society as much. 42:24Kate Boardman No, they're extremely friendly and welcoming and helpful as well. You know, if I've been in situations where my motorbike is broken down on the side of the street and someone, you know, because I've run out of petrol or something and someone stops to help me and gone and gotten me some petrol or whatever. So They'll go out of their way to help you if they can. 42:44Kerry Newsome Absolutely. Kate, just to finish up, do you have any kind of last minute tips for people, things that they should definitely do? 42:56Kate Boardman I mean, so many, but I think try all the food, really explore the cafe culture, it's unlike anywhere else in the world, the local coffee, the beautiful cafes that they have, they're so fun to explore. For me, I love going down all the little hidden alleyways, that's where all the hidden gems are. So I think back home, what we would see as a sketchy looking alleyway, it's kind of dirty, or, you know, it's not maybe the most hygienic place to eat, those are the best spots. So don't let, don't judge a book by its cover, that's where the magic is. And my favorite places are the places that are down what might look like a sketchy alleyway, but it's a culinary heaven and you just got to go and get lost and try it. My favorite trips have been, one of my favorite trips of all time was a motorbike trip that I did up to Ha Giang, the Ha Giang Loop, which is on the border of China. So my girlfriend and I rode motorbikes for about six days, and it was the most stunning countryside I've ever seen. So definitely do a motorbike trip if you can. I know that that trip has become a lot more popular over the years. When I went, it was definitely off the beaten track. It's incredible. Hoi An is such a magical place and will forever be one of my favorite places. But yeah, I think just try to experience as much as you can. And I think that's what makes Vietnam so amazing is that you've got literally everything. You've got incredible beaches, deserts, jungle. thriving, bustling cities, cute ancient towns. There's tons of history and architecture and charm. And so there's really something for everyone to see there. 44:50Kerry Newsome Kate, thank you very much for being on the program. It's been really great to talk to you. 45.20 Kate Boardman Thank you so much for having me.

S5-E4 - Exploring the Case for living and working in Vietnam S5-E4 - Exploring the Case for living and working in Vietnam Episode 04 S5-E4 - Exploring the Case for living and working in Vietnam 00:00 / 51:03 Welcome to another exciting episode of The What About Vietnam Podcast. In today's episode, we're diving deep into the world of expat life in Vietnam, shedding light on the importance of doing your homework before taking the plunge into this vibrant Southeast Asian nation. Vietnam is a country that's been capturing the imaginations of many with its rich culture, stunning landscapes, and a rapidly growing economy. But, before packing your bags, it's crucial to consider the vital aspect of due diligence. Our guest today, Kate Boardman, an experienced expat in Vietnam, shares invaluable insights on the need to verify job opportunities and ensure that you meet the legal requirements for working in the country. The last thing you want is to encounter legal troubles or job scams. However, it's not all cautionary tales in this episode. Vietnam's expat landscape is changing rapidly. The rise of digital nomadism has opened up new avenues for professionals to explore Vietnam while working remotely. With its booming tech industry and dynamic startup scene, Vietnam has become a hotspot for those looking to combine work and travel. Kate takes us through their journey, highlighting the incredible opportunities this evolving expat scene offers. From sipping Vietnamese coffee in Hanoi's quaint cafes to exploring the bustling streets of Ho Chi Minh City, there's so much to discover in this diverse country. So, if you're considering a move to Vietnam or are simply intrigued by the idea of combining work with wanderlust, this episode is a must-listen. Join us as we uncover the nuances of becoming an expat in Vietnam, emphasizing the need for due diligence while celebrating the exciting possibilities that this dynamic nation has to offer. Tune in now! Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-5 - The famous Hai Van Pass experience: Insights from a seasoned traveller S5-E5 - The famous Hai Van Pass experience: Insights from a seasoned traveller 00:37 - 02:18 Kerry Newsome Xin chào and welcome to What About Vietnam. Today I'm actually sitting in rainy Hoi An, but I've got the opportunity to have some time and talk to Chris Mooney. Now Chris and I have crossed paths many times and been, you know, just trying to get the moons to align to do this interview because he's going to be talking about quite a famous area called the Hai Van Pass. Just a little bit about Chris. Chris was born in New Zealand. I believe he's still an All Blacks fan. Lived in Australia for 28 years, mainly in Newcastle. For most of his adult life, he says he's been involved in media in one capacity or another. And, you know, since about the age of 20, he's been on air hosting radio shows, doing voiceovers and working for some major brands in that field. So, you know, we've got someone on today who really knows their stuff and certainly having lived here now in Vietnam and in this region, in the An Bang and Hoi An region, having done the Hai Van Pass many times, he's got some great insights into just understanding that area and what it involves in visiting that area. So we're going to get into that in more detail. Chris, welcome to the show and why not for all our listeners just give some background to yourself and how you arrived in Hoi An and your interest in Hai Van. 02:20 - 03:36 Chris Moonie Originally, I'm from New Zealand. Spent 28 years there, then 28 years in Australia. And I first came here in May of 2013 with my middle boy, who was 18 at the time. Loved Vietnam, thought there was something special about Hoi An. A lady that I met here, I also felt there was something special about her as well. And I went back to Australia to Newcastle and then I was back in Hoi An six weeks later and living here about 22 months after that. So I've been here now for eight plus years and living in An Bang, which is a very small, what was a fishing village up until The tourism boomed here. It's only 850 metres long, it's 350 metres wide at its widest point, but if you have a look at the area, the road from the traffic lights on the main road to the beachfront, the main road through the village, and the beachfront restaurants, there's over 130 restaurants, and that doesn't even take into account all of those great restaurants that you find down all the laneways and so on. So I love Unbung, it's quiet, but you have loads of choice and within four or five minutes walking of wherever you are. 03:37 - 04:00 Kerry Newsome And I'm glad you point that out because An Bang kind of sprung up after Cua Dai kind of got washed out and it's currently kind of sandbagged. And literally being as resilient as Vietnamese are, they kind of picked up everything that was at Cua Dai and moved it to An Bang. And that was maybe 10 years ago. 04:00 - 04:43 Chris Moonie Yeah, right about that time when I first got here, but there was very little here at that time to cater for tourists. With Cua Dai itself though, it's recovered just recently. There's some Dutch technology that's been used in building what is termed a sea dike, and then sand has been dredged up onto the beach, so the beach is the best that it's been for a long time. And I think that area will really kick off. With Hoi An, the ancient town area, there are only two main roads that go to a beach. So you've got Cua Dai Road, you're about seven kilometres out of town to get to that beach, whereas with An Bang, you're only about three, three and a half kilometres away. 04:43 - 05:00 Kerry Newsome Correct. Now, Chris, you've got a bit of a background which is going to help this podcast immensely in radio and public speaking, etc. So maybe just give us a snippet of that so everyone can appreciate where you're coming from. 05:00 - 05:23 Chris Moonie Yeah, sure. I started off with Radio New Zealand. I had 10 years there and then relocated to Australia. and had a lot of years there in radio and also doing what is termed house voice work for Channel 9 up in Newcastle. I was told very early on that I had a great face for radio so I'm pretty much a natural I think. 05:25 - 06:00 Kerry Newsome Yeah, I'm sure they're saying that about me in the podcast. So that suits me fine. I'd rather be behind the mic and not seen than rather at the front of it. So we're together on that. Today, Chris, we're going to be talking about the Hai VanPass. And this is something I really wanted to go into with you because your knowledge is so extensive. So maybe we kick off with talking about just how It took the attention of the BBC and the Top Gear crew back in 2008. So, I'll let you kind of lead off from there. 06:01 - 07:22 Chris Moonie Yeah, the BBC Top Gear program back in 2008 had a Vietnam feature and had the boys, they were riding motorbikes from Saigon up to Hanoi. One of them had a painting on their motorbike, one of them had a sailing ship, the other one had a ceramic vase from memory. Going back quite a few years ago, I was actually at Hai Van Pass itself and I saw a couple of guys there and one had a sailing ship and one had a painting, so they were doing the whole top gear thing over Hai Van Pass. But it's something that I did on my second trip to Vietnam in 2013, going up to Hue, and back in those days the road was pretty treacherous. It's been improved dramatically since then, but it still does have its challenges, and particularly if you're not somebody who's done a lot of riding. In the last 10 years, I've done well over 100,000 kilometres on local roads all over the country. And it's certainly very different to what you'd experience in a Western country because the Vietnamese have a different rhythm to the traffic and you don't want to be doing a bossa nova while they're doing a waltz because it gets very, very untidy. 07:23 - 08:25 Kerry Newsome And I'm glad you mentioned that because there is a rhythm and there is an element of organized chaos. And there's also an aspect of respect for one another on the roads. I see a lot of that I don't see in my own country, which is, you know, if there's a guy and he's kind of on a bike and he's got something on the back that is three times the width of him, You know, cars, other bike riders, et cetera, will just kind of veer around him, make sure he's got space and keep going on. So, you know, tourist-wise and tourists on bikes probably make me more nervous than Vietnamese on bikes. But I think it's worth mentioning and look, I could do a whole podcast just on bike riding. But today, I'm nailing you on Hai Van Pass. So, why would you go to Hai Van Pass? 08:25 - 10:12 Chris Moonie Hai Van Pass is just a beautiful ride. I've done it 40, 50 plus times and it's a lovely day trip. as a loop out of Hoi An, it's probably a couple of hundred kilometres or so. And you have the pass itself, then you come down to Lang Co, stop where the railway line comes over the road, go around to the west side of Lang Co Lagoon. That's an area where a lot of oysters are grown. So when you're riding along you'll see a lot of stakes in the water and the oysters are grown on tyres, motorbike tyres, scooter tyres that have been cut in half. So they're put on a line at about four or five hundred apart, and the oysters are grown, they take nine or ten months to grow. If you're travelling along that road, quite often you'll see tyres on the road, and they have been put there so that the vehicles will run over them to break off the residue and clean the tyres. So it's that sort of approach that you'd never be able to do where we come from. But, you know, there's some thinking outside the square that goes on. Also on that side of the Lang Co Lagoon, there's also the Dream Springs, which are fabulous. It's a series of cascades. It's water straight out of the hills. It's very, very fresh. But on a long, hot, dusty ride, there's absolutely nothing better than spending half an hour, 45 minutes there. It's very rustic, just bamboo huts. You have a tarpaulin to get changed behind. Typically Vietnamese with the karaoke going on, it's just great fun. 10:13 - 10:53 Kerry Newsome It sounds super. Is there like a start and finish? Like, you know, where does it go from and where does it finish? Has it got like a segment of the road or a span of road in kilometres, et cetera, that actually applies to the Hai Van Pass, because when I've done it, I've kind of tried to measure, I think this is where we're coming into it, and as you say, you're looking at that beautiful view of Lang co which is absolutely pretty as, but then I'm not quite sure when I've got out of it, or if I'm still in it, as in the pass, as in Hai Van Pass. 10:54 - 12:26 Chris Moonie Well Hai Van Pass itself, you've got the fortifications up the top and that was originally erected there by the Dai Viet or the North Vietnamese and it was a crossing point between North Vietnam and Central Vietnam. The gate up there, the brick gateway, dates back to 1341. currently that area is closed and the Hue government is rebuilding that area as it was back in the day. So I can only see it getting busier up there than what it is now to become its own tourist attraction or a tourist attraction in its own right and I'm very happy to see that because unfortunately the locals haven't taken care of that area and the buildings have gone into a great deal of decay in the 10 or so years since I first went up there. So to see that area being recreated I think is fantastic. The road trip itself from the very bottom of the hill, and you're only about 400 metres high, up to the top of the other pass itself is about 7.5 kilometres. That's where the best view is and then down the northern side there's a lot of bush, a lot of trees, so the views are a lot more restricted and that part is about nine and a half kilometres down to the bottom of the hill as such. 12:27 - 12:41 Kerry Newsome All right, well we touched on some history there. Is there anything more behind the history of that area that is worth just kind of taking into consideration? You mentioned the Viet Cong. 12:41 - 13:11 Chris Moonie Given its height, the French used that area to install bunkers. So there's bunkers to the left and to the right. pillboxes on the right hand side next to the brick archway and there's the one that is furthest north that you can frame a really nice photo of Lanko through the gunslit. So that area there was first used for fortifications in that respect by the French and then the Americans during the American War. 13:14 - 13:22 Kerry Newsome And also, for me, probably begs the question, are you better off to do it north to south or south to north? 13:22 - 13:40 Chris Moonie North to south. So that's from Hue to Da Nang. And the reason for that is that the view is in front of you. If you're riding up the hill, you have to look over your shoulder to see the view. If you're coming the other way down towards Hoi An or Da Nang, it's right in front of you. 13:41 - 14:21 Kerry Newsome And interesting to think about time of year because I talk a lot about this on the show in the sense of it is a lot about timing of the year in Vietnam from north to south the weather differs quite incredibly. Do you have a kind of a preference for when's a good time of the year? And I just want to add to that also, you know, what time of day is a good time to go? So time of year and, you know, early morning or late evening or sunset, you know, I'm kind of steering you that way. 14:21 - 15:38 Chris Moonie As far as time of day is concerned, it really just depends on the day itself. And if you're going to have a hot day, you go earlier. As I said, if you're doing a couple of hundred kilometers, you're looking at an eight-hour day anyway. You want to stop somewhere along the way and have lunch. So if you're leaving at seven or eight out of Hoi An, What I do is I go up the coastal road. In fact, Google Maps will show you the quickest route, which is through Danang. And it may be quicker on the ground, but it's not quickest time-wise. So because of all of the traffic lights and the traffic through Danang, it really does slow you down. You can save yourself half an hour each way by going the coastal road and then turning left, going up the first of the seven bridges over the Hun River and Danung. The big suspension bridge, you come off there, you get to an area which is called Namo, or which the Americans called Red One, and that was where they disembarked back in 1965. Then you just continue on the way, and it gives you a really good scope of how big Da Nang City is. There's only 1.3 million people there, but it's a very, very large city. It sprawls a long, long way. 15:38 - 17:06 Kerry Newsome Yeah, and it's a good point to talk about access. I've done it a couple of ways. I've done it north to south and south to north. It's not going to give me the views, but I've looked at doing the trip just from Hue to Da Nang via the train, because the views from there, I imagine, are just lovely from that region. But you're not getting that height, so obviously you're going to miss out there. We talked about transport and, you know, I get a lot of families that I look after and do trips for. So, ideally, you know, a bike is not convenient for them. Do you need to do it by bike or can you arrange another way to do it? And just my second question onto that is, Are you best to go with a guide? And I'm mentioning that because I think the first couple of times I did it, I was clueless. I just really didn't understand the spectrum of its history and just really what it meant. So, you know, I stood up there, I saw the view and I went, wow. I literally got back in the car and went back and then I've learned about it since. Do you think it would be better to go with a guide, and can we do another way of accessing it other than on a bike? 17:06 - 18:04 Chris Moonie You can. Just going back to the train, I have done it by train coming out of Dong Hoi when I went up to Phong Nha for the caves. And your views are very restricted. There's a lot of bush, and other than that, the windows are all badly scratched, so you can't take a decent photo. And that's because of the bush that you're passing by. In addition to that, you have huge bundles of cables and they're at about eye level. So your view is greatly restricted. So you can go by bus, car, they'll go up through the tunnels normally. Train obviously is a coastal route, but not one of the better train trips that I've been on in Vietnam and I've done a lot of travel on trains here. I love it. The bike just gives you a different sense of freedom. But for a family, I mean, sure, hire a car, hire a 16-seater, they're cheap enough. You can do it that way, no problems at all. Wind the windows down. 18:04 - 18:13 Kerry Newsome And you can stop then, can't you? You can ask the driver to stop at points and take vantage points, etc. But would you get a guide as well? 18:15 - 19:18 Chris Moonie Look, either that or I can tell people where to stop. If anybody wants to contact me, I'm quite happy to share my knowledge with them. All I've done with quite a number of people is just provide drop pins on Google Maps. If you don't have local data, you can download an offline version and that works just fine. But there are specific areas that you do really need to stop to get the best out of your day. And it's the sort of thing that you learn as you go along. A lot of people come here and they come here just once. So I'm quite happy to share my knowledge to enhance people's visits here. A lot of the riding that I've done has been with the original Hoi An Easy Rider, a good mate of mine called Tong Do Van. And he is a Hoi An local, also spent a lot of time down at Dalat with the family after the war. And I've learned a substantial amount from Tom just through going on rides with him and when my friends come over. 19:21 - 20:01 Kerry Newsome Absolutely, that sounds like a great idea. I think for my guests and for my listeners, I think having a chat with me, reach out directly, happy to steer you in the right direction. You've heard from Chris, also you can get access to him directly and I'll put links in the show notes so that you can do that very easily. Let's just talk a little bit, Chris, about, you know, like, what do you need to take on a trip day or a day trip pack for this kind of adventure? And, you know, what do we need to be prepared for? 20:01 - 23:25 Chris Moonie OK, so a standard day trip via Hai Van Pass for me is to go up to the tunnels. load the bikes onto a flatbed truck because you're not allowed to go through the tunnels on the bike. Then you get into a small coach and you follow the flatbed through to Lanco. You take the bikes off and on you go. The reason I do that is twofold. One, it saves you half an hour each way. And in addition to that, as I said before, the best view is coming north to south. And there's no reason to do Hain Van Pass twice. Not in my view anyway, because at eight hours on a bike, I'm sure you've got a back rest, but for some people it can just be too long if you're out for nine, nine and a half hours. So once we're through the tunnels, we've got our bikes, we go up through Lang Co. On the western side, you'll go to Dream Springs, have a swim there for 45 minutes or so. come back out and depending on the time of the year you can also do a beach ride of about five, six kilometres up the top end of the beach and then you come back down and what I do is I check the tide times prior to going so we can work in that beach ride and then we'll come back down we'll have some lunch and then after lunch head off up the other pass And when you get to the top, you can stop Cafe in the Clouds, which is the last of the sites at the market on the right-hand side. has a good view of some of the switchbacks that you use, and then over the northern side you've also got a great view down over Lang co. After that, only probably about 300 metres down, there's a very sharp right-hand turn. stop there and take a view, take a photo of the view there which is incredible. You come down the southern side and about two and a half kilometres from the top you have the Big Boulder which is quite obvious and you can either take photos there or there is what I've called Hanging Rock in Australian. I've seen that. And that just gives you a fabulous view. I have a friend there, a Vietnamese friend, Minh, and her cafe is called Minh Guitar. And during COVID, she got the engineers and she's built the cafe out over the edge of the cliff, but also has built some steps down to what looks like a big whitish tongue made of rock. And it makes for a spectacular photo. It does. After that, there's a couple of viewpoints on the way down that you stop at. And as I say, the views on your left hand side in front of you. And then you're off home. I would normally stop after you come over the suspension bridge. On the right-hand side, there's the fishing fleet that anchors in there. And you've got thousands of these blue and yellow Vietnamese fishing boats moored there. Then you do a U-turn, and then you take a run back along the river, just to give you a different perspective of Da Nang, rather than using the coastal road again. 23:28 - 23:42 Kerry Newsome When I sit here and I listen to you describe it, I'm fascinated because, as I said, I have done it a couple of times and I think I missed about 60% of this. 23:42 - 24:02 Chris Moonie Because you don't have that trained eye. Having local knowledge but also a local guide is a big thing. And I know many people who have come down from Hue and they've either missed Hai Van Pass or I've talked to them about doing Hai Van and I'm listening to them and thinking, you know, you didn't do all the good stuff. 24:02 - 24:08 Kerry Newsome Yes, absolutely. And that's why I wanted to do this show with you because I'm pretty sure I've missed 90%. 24:10 - 24:40 Chris Moonie But what I put it down to is that the Vietnamese look at things in a different way, and simply because what they see is very everyday to them, and to us, it's way outside the parameters that we see in the countries that we come from. So to get the most out of you, you just need to have somebody who has that local knowledge but also comes from overseas and know what is going to have a wow factor to tourists. 24:41 - 25:09 Kerry Newsome All right, like any final tips, Chris, for people like must do things to watch out for, you know, anything that we should leave with my listeners so that, I mean, as I said, I'm going to put links to everything. They're going to be able to access yourself and be able to reach out to you directly. But just, you know, anything last minute you'd like to leave for my audience. 25:09 - 26:42 Chris Moonie As far as the ride itself is concerned, you'd need to pack a light jacket. I wear shoes when I'm riding trips like that. So light jacket because you're 400 meters up. Also take into account Hai Van is Vietnamese for sea mist or sea cloud. But having done it as many times as I have, I've only ever had one occasion where the view has just been whited out. You also need a towel, your swimmers if you're going to Dream Springs, and also a decent sized plastic bag to put everything into when you're finished. Other than that, what to watch out for apart from the scenery? Goats, cows, and petrol tankers. The petrol tankers are not allowed into the tunnel. On the right up the south side, one of the first things you'll see is the big refinery. So you see the tankers moored offshore, and there's a big refinery both sides of the road. So what you'll find is, because the petrol tankers aren't allowed in the tunnels for obvious reasons, There's quite a few of them on the road up and down the pass. And with the big switchbacks, quite often you can be coming round a corner and you'll find that there's a tanker on your side of the road because it is that sharp of a turn. So you need to be wary, you need to be careful, you need to have your wits about you. 26:44 - 27:38 Kerry Newsome And that's working on the basis that you're going to be riding a bike. There is the option to sit on the back of a bike of an experienced rider. And personally, that would be my choice to do it that way. But as you say, you still need to be cognizant of the fact it's an eight hour day. And you know, I've done a fair bit of bike riding in my day and you know, at my stage of life, four to five hours is kind of my limit now. But for, you know, the fit, out there, the adventurous, et cetera, and if you time it with these stops, I think mentioning these stops has been crucial because, you know, if you stop for lunch or you go for a swim or, you know, you can kind of, and you're taking lots of photos, of course, I think that breaks it up and that's kind of what takes up the day. But it's still a, it's a long day, isn't it? 27:39 - 28:48 Chris Moonie It can be. And as you say, the breaks are important. So out of Hoi An, you're looking at about an hour before you get off and you load the bikes onto the shuttle. Then after that, only about a 10 minute or so ride to Dream Springs, have a decent break there. Then maybe a beach run back for lunch and have a break there. Then after that, that's the long slog that we like on the bike, where you're up and down the pass, but you've got several times that you'll stop on the southern side. So you stop at the top, you'll stop a few hundred metres down for that big sharp bend, which gives you a great view. Another two and a half kilometres down, and you're stopping at Minh's cafe near Hanging Rock. Then after that is the longest ride, where you're going down the pass and stopping once you get over the suspension bridge. And then from there, back down along the riverside to Hoi An, another 45 minutes or so. So in real terms, 45 minutes to an hour are the longest hauls before you have a break. 28:49 - 29:23 Kerry Newsome That's right up my speed then. That's perfect for me. Chris, I just want to say thank you again for being on the show. I think this episode has been extremely informative about Hai Van Pass. There's really not a lot out there about this area and let me tell you some of the images that I've seen that Chris has on Hanging Rock. I'm going to ask him if I can use and show you some of those. And obviously put the details. Just want to say thanks Chris for coming on the show. 29:23 - 29:26 Chris Moonie I hope to see you back in town again. No longer next time. 29:26 - 29:35 Kerry Newsome I wish, I wish. I'm in my 90 days so I'm really loving it this time having a little bit of extensive time. But thank you again for coming on the show. 29:37 - 29:38 Chris Moonie Safe travels. Thank you. Fun yeah. Really appreciate the opportunity. Thanks Kerry.

S5-E6-Explore the ‘Land of Lychees’ – Bac Giang with return traveller to Vietnam S5-E6 –Explore the ‘Land of Lychees’ – Bac Giang with a return traveller to Vietnam Kerry Newsome: Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. I'm very excited today to actually bring back a guest I spoke to back in June 2021. Now that's when we weren't able to go anywhere. But my guest, Jessie Pearlman, was sitting in Hanoi and I was really keen to talk to him at the time because he'd been to a place called Mu Cang Chai and he is a wonderful photographer and I had been following him on his Instagram page and I just fell in love with his photos and his stories and he came on the show and he's been a really big hit with you. So I asked him to come back on, and he's sitting in his home in Massachusetts, I think, in the U.S., and we're going to be talking to him, believe it or not, again about his return trip to Vietnam. So, let's welcome Jesse to the program. Great to have you on the show. Jesse Pearlman: Pleasure to be here, Kerry Kerry Newsome: Well, we're going to be talking about something that I am totally naive to. And so you're going to be educating me as well as everyone listening. And we're going to be talking about the lychee or the lychee festival, which is something that I think was the trigger for you to go back. But maybe for everyone, before we get into that in detail, Maybe give us a quick recap since you came back to the US after our last recording and what you've been doing in between time Like Jesse Pearlman: I said pleasure to be coming back to the podcast. I love talking about traveling specifically in Vietnam, so It's always great. I Came home about a month after we last spoke on air and After that, I've just been in school getting a master's degree in order to teach ESL. I think there are a lot of teachers who go to Asia to teach, and I think they kind of end up not really caring about the job itself, which is fine because it's what an opportunity it is to just be able to be born speaking English and be able to teach that. For whatever reason, I really loved the job. And I loved it from the first second I did it. When I landed in Korea, felt totally unprepared. First day I walked in the classroom, just kind of felt good. I felt at ease. And I've always loved working with children. So I'm going to be an ESL instructor here in a town in Massachusetts. One of the large portion of the ESL speakers that come in through this district are Vietnamese. So looking forward to working with them and their families. And they're Southern Vietnamese, so they probably wouldn't be able to understand my terrible Northern Vietnamese, especially because I'm not very good at pronouncing it. But either way, I'm looking forward to it. Kerry Newsome: That's exciting. And good on you for taking the job. you know, seriously and wanting to put your best foot forward in that space. And I think in Vietnam, especially, the country is developing and becoming, I guess, a little bit more sophisticated in that area and wanting people of a really good caliber to come into the country if they're going to teach. And I think that's just terrific. Now, I want to get into some detail with you, and I know you've got lots to share. So you decided to go back to Vietnam just very recently. What was the real motivation for you wanting to go back? Jesse Pearlman: To see my friends, to see all my Vietnamese friends. When I lived in Korea before I came to Vietnam, All of my friends were pretty much foreigners. So I played in a foreigner baseball league. I was in this hiking group that was foreigners for the most part. And I wouldn't say I integrated very well with the host culture of Korea. But when I moved to Vietnam, the first place I lived was a very small city called Yen Bai city in the province that Mu Cang Chai , Yen Bai province. And there weren't a lot of foreigners in general, maybe three in the whole place. I just, all my friends were Vietnamese. A lot of them were, some of them were my, a lot of them were my students who were adults, but a lot of them also were just people that kind of just came up and talked to me because they knew English and others were people who didn't speak English. And we kind of communicated via Google translate a lot of the time. And then of course I made my friends in Mu Cang Chai who were Hmong. But moving to Hanoi, you know, definitely met more foreigners there, but still a lot of there were a lot of really nice people at work who I became friends with. So my point is, is I was planning on coming back to Vietnam the second I came back to America, like I was, as soon as I as soon as the borders opened, and as soon as COVID was okay. And as soon as I had the money and time, it was going to happen. I had the trip planned. for the two years. Kerry Newsome: It's really funny you say that because I've spoken to so many people who have said the only way to get over any feeling of, I don't know, despair, loss, grief when you leave the country that, you know, is to plan the next trip. That's the only way to recover from that feeling when you get back. And I know it kills me when I get home to resettle back into Australia as much as I love my country. But yeah, I have to be planning the next trip. Thankfully, what I do allows me to do that. Jesse, let's talk about what month you went to in this trip, in this new trip you did and kind of where you first landed and where you're headed to because I think that's going to be of particular interest to everyone listening. Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, absolutely. My trip was mostly in the North because that's where I lived and I also feel quite intrigued by the north. The south is really nice for beaches. But you know, if obviously you're familiar, I'm sure all listeners here on the program are familiar with the, the geography of Vietnam gets so thin, there's not a lot of action going on, like in terms of mountains, and there are some but it's not like in the north, it just really opens up. So yeah, I flew into Hanoi. and just, you know, recalibrated and stayed in Truc Bach Lake. That's the place where I lived when I was living in Hanoi. It's very beautiful. To the American listeners, it's the place where John McCain's plane was shot down, and he became one of the first prisoners of war in the American-Vietnam War. Anyway, from there, I really came to Vietnam in June, which I think you asked earlier. That was the month that I went. I knew it was going to be hot, but I planned it, one, because I'm a teacher, I had to work around that schedule, but two, because I wanted to go to see the rice planting in Mu Cang Chai, which we talked about in a previous podcast, and then also the lychee harvest in Bac Giang. That's a district or, excuse me, that's a province about two and a half hours north of Hanoi. I want to say it might even be northeast of Hanoi. Um, pretty much just take the highway to get there at first. And then there are some not fun roads on the way to this particular village. Uh, the way I'll pronounce it is I'll just try to pronounce it in a, in a way it was very tough to pronounce this word in Vietnamese, but it's, L-U-C and then N-G-A-N, Luc Ngan. And it's this little district within the province that has kind of been designated since the late 1980s as the place where lychees are harvested. Lychee, lychee, what have you, those fruits that are incredibly juicy, have a pit in the middle. Some people even call them lychee nuts. And they have that bright red, almost like alligator skin coating on them. And this is the place if you enjoy this fruit and if you enjoy tropical fruit, rare fruit, this is the place to go. And I got the whole, I got really the whole tour of all the experiences you could have and I'm We'll definitely dive into that in a moment, but that was what I really wanted to see, funnily enough. Like that was my, that was one of my big goals of this trip. Kerry Newsome: So we're talking June and we're talking a trip by design to basically head straight for Bac Giang. Jesse Pearlman: That's a great question. It was just a two or three day trip. Honestly, I did it in about 24 hours and it was very doable. I think if you are a tourist who just kind of wants to have a little bit more time to just take things all in and you don't want to feel like you're constantly packing and moving, a two-day trip would be nice. I'm sure there's some other aspect. I know, for instance, they have a lake around that area. However, the weather is hot. I just think that it's a really nice trip you can do out of Hanoi for about one or two days And just get this experience that really has not been treated to a lot of tourists, even Vietnamese tourists. I would say a lot of them were surprised that that was a thing that I wanted to do. And I think the reason I wanted to do it was one, because I love lychees, but two, really for the photography and for the photos of these, these men and women bringing in you know, hundreds and kilos of lychees on the back of their motorbikes all at the same time to the morning market to have them shipped off to the countrywide, uh, to places like Japan and Korea, China in huge, massive amounts, the United States in massive amounts. And, uh, I mean, 180,000 tons of lychees are harvested each year in Bac Giang . It's the biggest. output in the country and they're one of the main countries that supply lychees to the world. Kerry Newsome: It's phenomenal, isn't it? I've seen the photos or some photos of the motorbikes absolutely chock-a-block all together coming down the street, etc. full to the brim with the lychees, or leeches as we figured out. We don't know which one is the right way to say it. I don't know. We'll just go with it anyway. But like 180,000 tons, that is definitely a lot of lychees. Tell us, Jessie, you said that you took the road, it's two and a half hours out of Hanoi. Did you do that by bike or did you decide to take a tour? What would you suggest for everyone to actually get out to this district is the best way, especially for new tourists? Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, I guess for new tourists, if you are not comfortable on a motorbike, I would not take it. There was a lot of highway driving. It rained the whole time. So I had to go very slow and pull over multiple times. And after the major highway, the road was unpaved and therefore there were puddles, it was going up and down. I would definitely suggest, depending on your level of motion sickness, either taking a bus or taking a private car. Private cars, and they call them transfers, are really readily available in Vietnam. I mean, any quick search will bring you to a company that, yes, they have set tours, but you can call them and ask them, I want you to just drive me to this place. You can pay for someone, pay extra for someone that can speak English who drives, or it can just be a person who drives that speaks Vietnamese. They still tend to be very friendly and wonderful people regardless. That's how I would suggest getting there. I think my motorbike experience, and this is someone who loves riding motorbikes, was not that pleasant. I did not enjoy the ride. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and I think it's important to kind of mention this because I have a lot of listeners that are really comfortable on bikes and, you know, have really traversed the country on motorbikes and done very well. But they are experienced riders in their own countries. I get nervous when I hear about or people are talking about, you know, just hiring a motorbike and off they go on a scooter and off they go when, you know, the roads in some areas are okay, but for long distances, the combination of weather and then when the road goes, you know, muddy and potholes and sometimes chock-a-block with traffic. I know that, you know, sometimes going around Ha Giang, that, you know, people have said you've got to queue in traffic to do the loop. So, you know, it's something to consider, but making sure that when you're considering this, you're getting the best advice possible for the locality that you're going into. Jesse Pearlman: I completely agree. And I think that the motorbiking thing is no joke in Vietnam. The number one death cause is motorbiking in Vietnam. So yeah, it's a huge situation. I think for people who are not advanced motorbikers, they should not take it with that. And people who are, my argument would just be it wasn't fun. Like I love driving my motorbike up through big passes, big mountain passes, but this was really bumpy and the traffic therefore was quite bad because of the unpaved roads. So I would definitely recommend taking either a bus or a A private car would be even better because it'll make the traffic feel a lot better. Kerry Newsome: I must admit, I'm a girl that's kind of built for comfort, not speed, so I definitely go with the private car option. Jesse Pearlman: My girlfriend agrees, by the way. When she came to visit me, she came for one of the weeks I was in Vietnam. She came from Massachusetts. She's a doctor, left America, came back, worked the next day. When she came back, she's an absolute trooper. But I was there for about a week with me, and yeah, it was private transfers all the way for both of us. That's what she told me. Kerry Newsome: Jessie, let's just talk a little bit about accommodation before we get into what you experienced around the Lychee's. Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, so I reached out to a woman who I worked with, I think I mentioned earlier. I had some friends from work, and she was from Bac Giang and she lived close to this Lychee area, and she was almost my in. Because if you look up lychee harvest in Pakistan, there's a lot of articles that are more or less just pumped out by the government. They use this word very liberally, the term propaganda. There's not as negative connotation with that word in Vietnam. So they write these articles just being like, yeah, this place is great. Look at how awesome we're doing with how much lychees we're picking. But there aren't a ton of blogs about people going there. So it was difficult for me to just figure out, do I just go? Like, I have my motorbike. I know where the place kind of is. I can just figure it out myself. I still reached out to someone who then put me in touch with a woman who actually runs a tour service in Luke Nunn for the Leeches and other tropical, other nice fruits that they grow. Once I was able to get in touch with that woman, it was actually quite difficult because of the language barrier. But once again, we are living in an era where we have this technology to be able to speak with each other and then translate our sentences. And Google Translate for Vietnamese is really good. I don't know if you ever had anybody talking about that on the podcast before. communication with locals and stuff. Google Translate is pretty awesome. It works quite well. We were able to communicate that way. Basically, she booked a hotel for me and then met me at the hotel when I arrived. The hotel was in the town where one of the markets takes place. It's probably a 10-kilometer stretch of where the orchards are and also where the markets are. But this is one of the main ones. And it was Luke Nunn Town. So she met me there. And then through Google Translate, just kind of said to me, hey, why don't you go shower and get ready? My husband will pick you up at 6.30. We're going to have dinner at our place. So I had already gotten excited, had Vietnamese dinners before with local families, and they're incredible. But this one was more than I ever could have imagined. It turns out that they live in this, or at least where their restaurant place was, was this grand outdoor place. And, you know, there were the fountains all over the place, large rocks with insignia. It was very, it was designed in a way that reminds me of kind of the Northern Vietnamese design. And there were various gazebos within the nature, flowers growing all over the place. And yeah, they just treated me to this dinner. I mean, obviously it came within the price of the tour, but yeah, we had this dinner that was expansive with some of the best stuff, you know, deep fried pork. You know, slow roasted pork and duck and then some really like some specialties from the region. Of course, all the leeches. At one point through the meal, the dad just took me with him and we walked outside their property across the street. And there were these men. It was raining. It was nighttime. They had full reindeer on and and flashlights on their head. And they were just harvesting leeches. And the guy talked to him and just said, hey, could you give some to my friend? And they just gave me fresh off the tree leeches. And that was a little sneak preview of what was to come. Kerry Newsome: We'll make sure that we put any contact with this lady in the show notes for people. So if you want to do this, you can reach out directly. Did she have a Facebook page or something like that? Because most people do. Jesse Pearlman: She had a Facebook page. So this is what's tricky about traveling in Vietnam. She had a Facebook page and most Vietnamese people are, are using Facebook and some people, however, especially it's kind of an older fashion thing is they're really, and actually maybe it's not because we do it in America. They're very phone based. They, they want your phone number and they want to text you and they want to call you. So the best way that people reach her and in a lot of these small businesses in Vietnam is they call. And that's out of the question for me. So, uh, I'm not going to be able to hold, I can speak a little Vietnamese, but I can't hold the phone conversation. I mean, just your ability to listen over the phone and the quality, quality, sound quality is important. So it's hard to understand them. And so, uh, then the other version they use is, um, this Vietnamese, Messaging app called Zalo. So if you go to Vietnam and you have a Vietnamese phone number You can download this app and then it's like WhatsApp or something and you can use it however, if you don't register with the Vietnamese number and what I did to get my SIM card was just Paying for a data plan. I now can't use Zalo. So now she's She's on her third method of communication, which is Facebook and that's the only way I can reach her And so it just took her a little bit, a while to figure out messenger, I think. And it was, she's, she's usually on the phone or texting or using Zalo. So once we were able to connect, the communication was great. She was on point 100% of the way. And after I finished that dinner, she told me that her husband was going to pick me up at 5am and we were going to go to the lychee market. Yeah, that's that's where it all began. That was this procession. I'd seen videos of this lychee procession and you get in a lychee traffic jam on the main road of the town just because there's so many cars coming in or motorbikes but also massive trucks that they fill with lychees for transportation. Kerry Newsome: Okay, so let's talk about that visit and that experience so that people can kind of get a visual. I'm sure you've got some great photos that I'll also put up on the page for people to see. But yeah, talk us through just what happened. They picked you up at 5 a.m. Where to from there? Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, so they picked me up at 5 a.m. and you're basically just on a motorbike. He drove my motorbike. I highly recommend for this portion of the trip, you're going to want this guy or another person to drive you on a motorbike and you're on the back. This is a very safe place to drive. No one's going over 10 kilometers per hour because of the amount of l ychee traffic. It's perfect. You have range of motion. for yourself, taking pictures, for you to turn around while he's driving. It's definitely the way to go. You can do it on foot. You definitely shouldn't do it on car, via car, because you'll just be stuck behind everything. But the motorbike's the way to go for this one. So basically, from what I understand, is there's a river that separates the town and the road from the lychee orchards. And that's where the people are collecting lychees, and they're starting at 2 a.m. on their farms, picking lychees out at dark. And then once, as soon as sunrise hits, they bike across these kind of hanging bridges. I'm sure some of the listeners have seen these bridges up in the mountains that kind of are one lane and feel like they could break at any time, but somehow they don't. I mean, the engineering in Vietnam is just incredible. But they drive across those, and then it's just kind of a race for them to get their stuff to the market. And once they're in line for the market, there's a person who comes along and almost seems to be appraising the lychees. And once they've been appraised, they then give the driver a little paper ticket that they can now give to whoever they're selling their market to, that basically it's been approved or appraised. I'm not sure whether the ticket system is how good your lychees look, and therefore you get a higher price, or whether you've just been cleared to do trade. But either way, something's going on. I go there, and it's just pandemonium. At these markets, it's absolute pandemonium. People are trying to grab all the leeches, they wash them off with the hose, they put them in these huge, almost pools, and wash them off and then drain them out. And then there's also men with gloves carrying dry ice, which is used for packaging, especially going to places like China, or other parts of Vietnam, or honestly, pretty much everywhere, just to make them remain as fresh as possible. And this dry ice, from what I would imagine, is like should not be touching your skin whatsoever. And like they come darn close to having a touch their skin, just casually bringing it from the truck onto the place. So that's, that's a site. And I have pictures of that too, uh, that, that you can include just to get a better, um, idea of it. But anyway, there's all these leachy people driving around left and right. And meanwhile, they're really interested in you, the foreigner being there because it's not a place where people go to. I, as a, as a photographer of people of something I've recently been doing, I'm still a little bit shy and feel a little bit bad of just taking pictures unsolicited of folks. And in a place like Mukong Chai where they're, they're quite shy. I don't really go out and try to take pictures of people unless I'm at a social gathering anymore. And even then I, I tried to do it only when I feel like they are going to give consent and it's. It feels like a safe space. But here, everybody's just smiling, posing, having a great time. It's totally new to them. And they're just, I don't know, they don't care. It doesn't affect their day. To them, that's at least how they see it. And so I had a lot of great interactions. And all the drivers were saying, oh, here, just take my lychees. Take as many as you want. I mean, they know you're not going to take a ton from them. Even if you did, by the way, which is something I haven't mentioned yet, a kilogram of these lychees are like one US dollar. So you're paying an unbelievably tiny amount. I left this entire place. They gave me a gift at the end, part of, I guess, this package. They gave me like five kilograms of lychees. It was way too much. I could not finish them. And this man told me that he eats, the man who ran the tour with his wife, told me that he eats one to two kilograms a day during lychee season. Wow. Kerry Newsome: So tell me, how long does it take to grow a lychee and what is required? Is it a tree? Is it in the soil? To be honest, as I said, I started this off by saying I'm clueless. Sure. Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, so I remember my mom growing up telling me it was a lychee nut. That is not the case. It grows from a tree. It grows from a tree in an orchard that looks similar to apple orchards. You know, short trees bent over, many short branches kind of bending over in an umbrella shape. Although the leaves run a little bit more wild, so it looks a little bit more healthy, I would say, than an apple tree. I think that the lychees probably it's a year-round process, but obviously, the heat plays a major role. So once summer rolls in, that's when they're going to start growing. And summer really begins in Vietnam, usually between April and May. Kerry Newsome: Do they take a year to grow? So it's like if they harvest every May, June or June, July, is that roundabout? Yes. Jesse Pearlman: It's a year. Yeah. It's only annually. It's just like the rice and mucang chai. It's just once a year. And it's from June to early July, pretty much all of the month of June. I came later on in June. And, you know, as I just described to you, it was the most of any one, maybe of one thing, like one unit of food I've ever seen in my entire life. And the whole time at that market, the man kept apologizing to me because of how few of these there were. And how much, how much crazier it was like, uh, in the peak part. And I was like, you know, couldn't believe that he said that, but yeah. So, uh, it's, it grows just at that one time a year and it's a little bit elevated, um, in terms of, uh, elevation, like, uh, it has to do with a little bit chilly winds and, uh, that has a major portion. And I think it's the humidity as well. That helps. these lychees grow. It used to be in a place called Haizhou, which I think might be its own province as well. I might be mistaken about that. But they ended up moving it to Bac Giang and Luc Ngan in particular, I think just because of changing weather conditions. I think they just determined that this was going to be the best growing conditions. Kerry Newsome: Is there any kind of medicinal aspect of the lychees? Are they good for you? I mean, people having, you know, one kilo a day seems, you know, exorbitant, but like, is there some kind of value or, you know, how does it play in their culture as far as their meals and, you know, how they treat the lychees? Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, it really, to me, seems like it is a giant export business. I think that it is just a massive opportunity for them to make money and for the country to make money, to bring them all around the world, and especially in Asia. That's the number one concern. I think the second part is definitely that it's a specialty and they're very proud of it, and they definitely eat it all the time for dessert. You might always just have some surplus lying around, too. You know, at night, sometimes when men, the men in Vietnam drink, they'll finish their drinking and they'll finish it by having some tea. And then during the tea, they might bring out some lychee, um, in a situation like that. And then I think that, uh, a funny thing about lychees and what people in Vietnam say is that it gives you really bad acne. Now I had never experienced that. And then I asked the people who ran the tour and they laughed and said, no, absolutely not. So that's a myth. It might just be a myth. It might be a myth. But when you asked me the questions about benefits, that was the first thing that came to mind. Right. Kerry Newsome: Well, yeah, getting acne probably is not a benefit for a lot of people. Jesse Pearlman: Exactly. It's a medical response. Yeah, it is a medical response. Kerry Newsome: Sure. OK. Is there anything else you want to tell everyone about this visit, this location, this experience before we kind of wrap things up? Jesse Pearlman: I think that one thing I would say is that like, you know, we are all dealing with a lot of small businesses struggling to stay afloat. And if you come to this place in Vietnam, you are supporting a small business. Like these are a group of people that pretty much have other jobs and are just doing this for one or two months a year. just trying to make a little bit more money to support their families. And these people were just absolute sweethearts were so efficient and good at their job. And, uh, I, I just don't really think that a lot of people know about it. And if you're in Hanoi, it's really not a huge extension in there. You know, they're just places that are getting really, really over touristed, which I think is another issue. in particular, like Ha Giang, the Ha Giang loop. The difference between when I left for Vietnam and now that was one of like the updates that people gave me was just, yeah, Ha Giang is almost like, it's untenable at this point. I don't know if they were, you know what I'm saying? So in places like that, I'd encourage people to maybe try to go somewhere different. And you're certainly going to get a response from the local people that is really positive because they're going to be so like interested in you. And hopefully, you know, if you're interested in Vietnam as a culture, that's a good thing to me because you can make more connections. And if you're a photographer, connections and photography go hand in hand, you can really form trust with these people and show them your kindness and, you know, if you want to give them some money after you take their picture, that's totally reasonable thing to want to do and to do. So, yeah, I just think supporting the small areas of Vietnam while we also have some really heavily touristed places. Ha Long Bay, another example. Here's some options. Here's another option for you. to take a two day, one day even trip out of Hanoi, get yourself picked up from your hotel and drop right back off there and you spend a night in a hotel which is a totally fine hotel, which is where I stayed. No issues. Kerry Newsome: Jesse, from a minority group standpoint, are they mostly Hmong in that area? Jesse Pearlman: Actually, they're pretty much all Vietnamese. Okay, this area is not an ethnic minority Location it's yeah, this is a pretty Vietnamese area. And I think that it's it's pretty close to Hanoi still to Relative to how far places can take to get in the north and I should also mention I just remember there's you like lotuses ,There's tons of lotus fields on the way and people selling lotuses on the side of this other road So it's another area, it's a very fertile area, the whole country is really fertile. Kerry Newsome: Yeah, and I think you're right in saying that the North has certainly got that diversity, it's got the mountainous areas, it's got the diversity in minority groups and different experiences totally to the South, very, very, very different. So, I've been fascinated to find out about these lychees because I've seen them and I've gone, you know, what's the story there? Because it was just crazy that these bikes were just queued up for miles, it looked like, with these lychees. So, as an export business, I'm really glad that Vietnam can produce these and sell these around the world. They're an unusual fruit. They are kind of a prickly pear, for want of a better word, with that nut in the middle. I mean, how many can you consume in one sitting? Like, I could only do about two or three. That's a great question. I don't know. How many can you do? Jesse Pearlman: I'm a little bit more, I can do more than that, maybe like 10 or 15. Oh, wow. But I'll like, I'll go back to it. That's, that's what I'm about is I'll just, you know, I'll eat three or four or five and then maybe come back to it in a little bit. And also I should mention that it's very, at least for me, my experience was that it was very within Vietnamese culture for if you're eating food with, with Vietnamese people, they are going to encourage you to eat more and more and more. That was also some, some of the reasons why I ate more lychees than maybe I would have normally. Kerry Newsome: Look, thanks, Jessie. Thanks for being on the program. It's been really informative. I hope people will consider going out to this region. Let's make sure we put as many links as we can in the notes for people so that they can reach out because I'm all for supporting local businesses, community-based businesses, and Just giving people that extra information, I think, goes a long way to do that. So thanks again, Jesse, for being on the show. Jesse Pearlman: Yeah, and you know, just as an added thing, if you're not able to get in touch with these people, you're always welcome to reach out to me. My Instagram is PearlmanJ1, Pearlman, like a pearl earring, and then man, and then J, my first name, Jesse, PearlmanJ1. So if you want to send me a message on there, Or you could send me a Facebook message, Jesse Perlman is my name on Facebook. I can help you get there. So, you know, it wasn't easy for me. I want to try to make it easier. Kerry Newsome: That's really wonderful. And I'll make sure I put those links also in the notes and on the show page. Thanks again, Jesse. Hope you have a great day. Jesse Pearlman: Okay.

S5-5 - The famous Hai Van Pass experience: Insights from a seasoned traveller S5-5 - The famous Hai Van Pass experience: Insights from a seasoned traveller Episode 05 S5-5 - The famous Hai Van Pass experience: Insights from a seasoned traveller 00:00 / 30:13 When you start researching Vietnam for your holiday, especially if you have an interest in motorbike rides and scenic routes, it won’t take you long before you come across the famous Hải Vân Pass (Đèo Hải Vân) The Hải Vân Pass is a legendary motorbike route located in central Vietnam. This scenic route gained attention from the BBC and the Top Gear crew in 2008, further solidifying its reputation as a must-visit destination for motorbike enthusiasts and adventure seekers. The Hải Vân Pass is not only famous for its scenic beauty but also for its historical significance as it was a crucial route during the Vietnam War, connecting the north and south of the country. Today, it serves as a symbol of Vietnam's resilience and progress. To gain more insights into the Hai Van Pass, I had the opportunity to speak with Chris Moonie, a seasoned traveller and media professional. Chris has been living in Vietnam for over eight years and has explored the Hải Vân Pass multiple times. His firsthand experiences and deep understanding of the area make him an excellent source of information for anyone planning to visit this iconic route. Together, Chris and I explore all the ways you can experience this incredible route. And guess what? Traveling by motorbike isn't the only option, so there's something for everyone. Chris's journey to Vietnam began in 2013 when he visited Hoi An with his son. He fell in love with the country and its people, particularly the charm of Hoi An. Chris's connection to Vietnam deepened as he met a special lady during his visit, further cementing his decision to relocate to Hoi An. Since then, he has been living in An Bang, a small village that has transformed into a vibrant tourist destination just out of Hoi An. Overall, the Hải Vân Pass offers up Instagram heaven, however for me it is the unique stops along the way, such as the oyster farms and Dream Springs that make the Hải Vân Pass a super day’s excursion, and a must-visit destination for motorbike enthusiasts and those seeking to explore Vietnam's rich culture and history. In summary, the switch backs will set your heart racing but the views are next level! You can reach Chris here directly for information here - https://www.facebook.com/chrisminvietnam Watch this Video here - https://www.facebook.com/chrisminvietnam/videos/866528168426706/ Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-E6-Explore the ‘Land of Lychees’ – Bac Giang with return traveller to Vietnam S5-E6-Explore the ‘Land of Lychees’ – Bac Giang with return traveller to Vietnam Episode 06 S5-E6-Explore the ‘Land of Lychees’ – Bac Giang with return traveller to Vietnam 00:00 / 40:19 Bac Giang, is a pictureesque province in northern Vietnam. It’s one place you most likely won’t see hit the social pages and news till around the time of the Lychee Festival. This vibrant event is held in June, and celebrates Bac Giang's reputation as the "Land of Lychees. In today’s episode Bac Giang and the subject of lychees are front and centre, as I get to share the story of a photographer named Jessie Pearlman, a previous guest on the podcast, who embarked on a return trip to Vietnam, driven by his love for the country and his desire to reconnect with friends and explore new experiences. This show delves into the motivations behind his journey; the significance of the lychees to the region and the community, and how best to navigate a visit there. Jesse has a wonderful gift for self-expression and description which will immediately transport you to the experiences he had during his time in the heart of Bac Giang province, Luc Ngan, the township designated as the biggest growing township for lychees. He provides valuable tips on organizing your trip and strongly recommends it as a destination to visit, just a short 2.5-hour drive from Hanoi, especially for photographers and tropical fruit enthusiasts. This is an off the beaten track location and experience, so information is as Jesse describes, hard to find. Therefore, we have the following links to the people who helped him create his trip, which we hope will help you too. Phung Lan, Tour Guide for Luc Ngan Lychee Harvest in Bac Giang Province: https://www.facebook.com/kalydao.phung Lan's Tour Company: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100076182891385 By visiting lesser-known regions like Bac Giang, we can contribute to the local economy and make a positive impact on the community. Let's make a conscious effort to explore off-the-beaten-path destinations and give back to the places we visit. Follow Jesse or get in touch via his IG page here - https://www.instagram.com/pearlmanj1/?hl=en Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-E8 – Empowering the Traveller: In the fight against Human Trafficking S5-E8 – Empowering the Traveller: In the fight against Human Trafficking Episode 08 S5-E8 – Empowering the Traveller: In the fight against Human Trafficking 00:00 / 38:19 Join us for an insightful journey into the pressing issue of human trafficking in Vietnam, and discover how, as a traveller, you have the ability to effect real change. In this episode, I'm joined by Kim Miller, who offers firsthand insights into the challenges and the remarkable efforts undertaken by Blue Dragon, an organization dedicated to combatting human trafficking. As a listener, you'll gain a profound understanding of the poverty and vulnerabilities that fuel human trafficking, along with practical guidance on recognizing and responding to situations where individuals are exploited or in need of assistance. We start off by talking about Kim’s experiences of Vietnam since 2016—Kim shares her deep affection for Vietnam, recounting her experiences living there and highlighting her favorite Vietnamese cuisines like Phở chiên phồng and destinations you may not have heard about just outside of Hanoi called – Ho Dong Do lake district Kim shares her bold ambition of raising $200,000 by swimming the English Channel this July to support Blue Dragon's vital community initiatives. See link here Tune in as she outlines actionable steps travellers can take to aid vulnerable individuals they encounter. From simply reaching out or alerting organizations like Blue Dragon, travellers can ensure prompt assistance for those in need, empowering them to play an active role in combating human trafficking. This is an episode that I'm confident will offer you valuable insights and takeaways. Finally, you are one click away from supporting Kim's cause, please check the link here and let’s unite in making a positive impact during our journeys through Vietnam. To date, Blue Dragon has: Rescued 1,431 people from trafficking Represented 261 people in court cases Sent 6,314 kids back to school & training Provided shelter to 1,668 girls & boys Placed 445 teens in jobs Served 672,359 meals Built 262 homes for families Reunited 769 runaways with their families Obtained legal papers for 13,544 people Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-E9 - Out and about in Saigon S5-E9 - Out and about in Saigon Episode 09 S5-E9 - Out and about in Saigon 00:00 / 33:06 Hello, I'm Kerry Newsome, and welcome to my podcast, "What About Vietnam." In this episode, I'm thrilled to introduce you to a mini-series "Out & About in Vietnam" that will take you along on my holiday adventures in Vietnam. Over the next 60 days, I'll be sharing my experiences, destinations, and the fascinating people I meet along the way. Today, we're starting with "Out & About in Saigon”, my first stop on this journey. Vietnam is a country that benefits from research and preparation, and through this podcast and series, I aim to help you navigate the overwhelming amount of information out there. I also wrote an Ebook and self published it on Amazon to help guide your plans. Cheap as chips, you can buy HERE, and read it in a day. As a precursor, as you will hear in the show, please double-check your visa details meticulously. See my Link HERE which explains the process for E-Visa to ensure you get it right FIRST GO! In Ho Chi Minh City, I recommend taking the first day to orient yourself. Use Apps ( See You Tube I did talking about Apps here ) like Grab for transportation, Exe for currency conversion, and Google Maps for navigation. Decide whether you want to hit the top attractions, explore the outskirts for a taste of history and nature, or simply wander the streets and get lost in the local scene. Stay tuned for more episodes in the "Out and About" series, where I'll take you to my next destination, Hoi An. You can find all episodes on your usual podcast channels and on whataboutvietnam.com. Thank you for joining me on this adventure, and I look forward to sharing more of Vietnam with you.

 00:01:02 - Purpose of the Mini-Series 
00:01:44 - "Out and About" Series Context
 00:02:06 - Starting with Ho Chi Minh City 
00:03:19 - Importance of Research for Vietnam Travel
 00:11:10 - First Day Orientation Advice
 00:15:28 - Approaches to Exploring Ho Chi Minh City
 00:18:39 - Exploring Ho Chi Minh City's Attractions
 00:21:12 - Day Trips Outside Ho Chi Minh City
 00:23:37 - Personal Approach to Experiencing the City
 00:27:26 - Nightlife in Ho Chi Minh City 

I hope you find this series interesting and helpful.
 Follow along with our social pages as I will post during my journey.
My "Full trip planning" services will resume in July 2024. 
Send me your feedback and questions. Download Transcript PDF Read the transcript here

S5-E9 - Out and about in Saigon S5-E9 - Out & About in Saigon – with What About Vietnam host Kerry Newsome Kerry Newsome : Xin chào and welcome to the What About Vietnam podcast. Today I'm inviting you to join me in what I'm calling a mini-series and that mini-series is actually going to be an invitation to you to join me while I'm out and about in Vietnam on my holiday. Now the reason I wanted to do this series was to I guess chronicle the experiences, the destinations and some of the people I get to meet in Vietnam and over the next about 60 days I'll be trying to record as I go different places, experiences and just activities and things that I want to share with you that I hope will help you with your planning and give you some guidance around coming to Vietnam and what to expect. So, let me give you some context to the Out and About series. Firstly, every time you see Out and About as a title on my show, on the website, you'll know that that's what the basis of these are. So, we're going to kick off today with Out and About in Ho Chi Minh City. as this is the first city that I have arrived into and it actually kind of begins the show and the series. So we kick off with Ho Chi Minh City. Now I wanted to just give a little bit more context to this series in the sense that it's not going to be a series where I give you kind of a whole list of things to do and you know kind of send you off into various places. It's more about me trying to give you a sense of what to expect, what I have experienced personally and in each situation it's obviously going to be different but I'm hoping that you can take this information and then apply it to everything that you're doing as far as preparing for your trip because for me Vietnam is just not one of those countries that you to get the best out of it anyway, is that you can just kind of lob here and just hope it all goes merry well. It is a country that deserves some research. And one of the things that's come up over the nearly last four years of me doing this podcast has been the sense that you all are starting to go down that path of research to, you know, possibly plan a trip. And some of you reach out to me individually, which I love. But like, I think it's quite overwhelming. And I think what I'm hearing is that that overwhelm almost puts you off coming. So I'm trying to for one of a better description, kind of break through the chatter and clatter and all the rest of it because there's a thousand websites out there. There's a thousand YouTube videos. I don't want to and nor am I trying to compete in that space. I'm trying to just, I don't know, help you decipher, help you have some insights so that when you look at things you can look at them with informed eyes and you can make some decisions. So without further ado, let's kick off out and about in Saigon or Ho Chi Minh City as it's known. Now firstly I want to share with you my experience getting here. as it has a little bit of a good story to it and a not so good story. So firstly, the good story. So I'm on the plane and I'm traveling from Australia and Just as we're about to arrive, two lovely ladies sitting across the aisle from me, one of them reaches out and says, are you Kerry Newsome? And of course I say yes, and they say, look, we are on our trip to Vietnam because of your podcast called What About Vietnam? We're planning four weeks, we listened to this episode and that episode, and it kind of inspired us to do this trip. So, I just want to reach out to those ladies who I didn't get a chance to get their names, but I just want to say hello and I hope you're having a great time. And for me, that was just such a personally rich experience to have that, you know, my podcast is reaching your ears and you are being able to use it to help you put your trip together and make decisions to come. Then the other not so good news. So the gentleman sitting next to me on the plane for the whole trip kind of arrived into his seat and I could kind of tell he was agitated and I thought, gee, we've only just begun, I wonder what this is about. He'd actually been to Vietnam before and had a great experience and was coming back a second time with some friends. But as he went to check in at the check-in counter at Vietnam Airlines, he presented his visa. But unfortunately, the visa was one day out in matching up with his dates of arrival into the country. So, that was actually a barrier to entry and they were not going to permit him to check in and to take the flight. So, the advice he was given was to, the only advice really they had to offer, was to go to a flight centre shop at the airport and that they had a VIP emergency kind of service, e-visa service, that they could put together, but the cost of that service was $500, $500 Australian dollars. Now, if you know what the cost of a visa doing it normally through the immigration site for a 30-day visa, it's $25 US, and for a 90-day visa, multiple entry, it's I think $90 or $100. So of course he was quite upset, he was quite irate. He couldn't believe that that small element of just the date not matching up exactly was going to be a problem and thus would mean that he couldn't join the flight with his wife and take this trip unless he did do that service. So, I know I go on and on about getting a visa and from the very first, I guess, thing that you put together as far as your planning is concerned, please spend the time necessary to get that e-visa and to get it right. It's something, even as many times as I've done it, I go through it religiously. The questions on the website have actually increased, so you do need to spend a bit of time in answering them. But as you can see, the impact that it has if it doesn't match up exactly to your passport and to your airline ticket can mean that you don't even get to come to Vietnam. So I just wanted to throw those in just to make sure that when you are thinking of getting out and about in Vietnam, you're not even going to get the chance to get here unless you get some of these pieces correct in the first instance. Now, a little bit more about the episode. When I'm out and about and I'm doing this series, I'm going to be doing it with obviously a sense that I want to continue with the quality, but there's going to be times where you're going to hear roosters and taxi hooting. You're going to hear some noises that I really can't control, but Guess what folks? These are definitely the sounds of Vietnam. So please forgive me if at times you do experience that. I'm hoping to keep that to a minimum. And of course I want to keep the program in such a way that I can be mobile with it and as I'm going to each place I can record. So over the next you know six to eight weeks we're going to be doing lots of recordings and they're going to be a bit shorter and a little bit sharper about the experiences that I'm having. Now, when you enter into Ho Chi Minh City, you know, depending on where you've come from, so for myself, a flight from Australia is roughly about eight hours. Vietnam has three international airports, so you're going to come into either Ho Chi Minh or Hanoi or Da Nang, depending what country you're coming from. So you've already been in transit to get here from Australia, about eight hours plus three hours at the airport. If you're coming from the US, it's probably a minimum of 14 hours coming from San Francisco. But if you're coming more from Southeast Asia or Singapore or Bangkok, it's only about five hours. But for me, when I arrive into Ho Chi Minh City, I'm tired so I've had a good night's sleep. I always make sure I try and get into a flight that will enable me to you know unpack, get a good night's sleep and get up on the next day. Now depending on what sort of flyer you are also you know I tend to on that first day if you have time Now time is a commodity we all know and for you, you may not have the chance to add in this day but if you do have the opportunity to make your first day a little bit of a free day so that you don't have something booked, you don't have something set or organized, I would really urge you to take that first day to just use it as a day of orientation. And I say that because when you're jet lagged, when you are a bit tired, when your body is readjusting to, you know, new temperatures, new smells, new environments, your hotel, your air conditioning, all of that kind of stuff, you can kind of experience things, but not really experience them. For me, I'm a bit of a space cadet that first day and certainly as I've got older, I'm more so. So I'm just saying that on that first day and possibly even the last day of your trip, if you have the chance to keep it free, do so. Take it up because there's some things you can still do to orientate yourself that I think give you a greater sense of where you are and is going to help you take in what you see. Now let me share with you Ho Chi Minh and what it means to me. Years and years ago, when I used to travel to Ho Chi Minh City, I kind of used it as a stepping stone. I came in and then I just went somewhere else. But over time, Ho Chi Minh City has really evolved. It's a very high energy city. It's a very busy city. And I speak of the busyness side of it in respect to not only the amount of motorbikes and traffic on the streets, but even on the sidewalks. The sidewalks of Vietnam streets, and in particular big cities, are not like controlled by councils or governments etc like they are in my country where you are not permitted to do anything on those or you have to get permissions to do that. On the sidewalks you've got people that are sitting on little red chairs and eating food. You've got street sellers selling their wares for everything from peanuts to fruit to, you know, small meals. You've got barmy vendors. So, whichever way you go, it's happening. So, getting back to what I'm saying about orientating yourself to the city, it's really good to get a handle on that just to begin with. If you're traveling in a group, if you're traveling with your partner or with a young family or whatever, everybody's kind of got to get their footing. And I speak of the footing side of it as well, as not all the streets are paved with gold. Most of the streets are in kind of poor condition. You're going to be stepping around people. You're going to be stepping over broken streets and cement. There's a lot of construction going on. There's a lot of noise. There's a lot of tooting of horns. So when you are in that state of just trying to get to grips with everything as a newbie to the country, that first day can be quite confronting, can be quite in your face. and so it's good to ease yourself into it so that it can come alive for you in its various ways and give you the experience that I think you can have here. So for me there's three or four approaches to Ho Chi Minh City. Now the first one is you can decide to hit all the top attractions. So, the city itself has, you know, various, I guess, top must visit tourist destinations. So, in that first day, I wouldn't be doing that. I choose not to do that. What I choose to do is try to find just my bearings of where my hotel is, where it is in proximity to lots of things and you know from the get-go I start to assimilate or become attached to the country in getting to know it. And I start by putting on my phone certain things. We've talked about over the years about putting some certain apps on your phones. So firstly I would suggest setting up the Grab app. Now there's other forms of Grab. Grab is kind of relative to what is in my country an Uber. So this is a car, share car opportunity where they can pick you up and take you wherever you want and it's so easy to use. I use it with cash only and I make sure I give a small tip to the drivers. I like Grab because it gives me a way to communicate with the app, with the driver, even if the driver can't speak English. I can tell from their phone and mine matching that they have Kerry Newsome on their phone and they have the same destination. So I put the Grab app. I then have the Exe app. Why do I have that? Because that gives me a very quick way to work out money. So this is another part of your orientation to the country. you know you've got to get used to lots of zeros. You know a million zeros in any language sounds a lot, a million dong, wow is that a lot of money. In my country that's around about 60 something dollars. depending on your currency, the currency that you're bringing into the country, that Exe app is going to be able to tell you when you look to buy something, whether it's a cup of coffee or a meal or something that you want to purchase, whether or not you're getting a good price for it. You're happy to pay that price for it. Or you can kind of be comfortable with the price that you're paying and not feel like you're getting ripped off. Really, really important. I've seen people get quite upset about having to pay another $10,000 for something when they find out later it was like $0.60. As far as apps are concerned, I definitely think those two are the kind of the essentials. Obviously, Google Maps is another one and it's also part of this orientation. So again, I'm sitting in a coffee shop And I'm having a look at Google Maps and going, I really want to go and have one of my favorite coffees, which is a iced coconut coffee. And I'll work out where the nearest coffee shop to get that is from my hotel. And even before I'm going to use the Grab app, I'll use the Google Maps to find out roughly how long it's going to take me to get from A to B. So if it's 17 minutes or it's 20 minutes or whatever, I know then how much time to allow to do that. So, once again, Google is your friend in Vietnam, for sure. Google Translate is also another one. I mean, the joy of Ho Chi Minh City is it's a very modern city, so in most of your tourist destinations and your hotels, and things like that. You know, the receptionist staff, et cetera, are really good at being able to speak good English in most cases. And certainly, as you're getting about in hospitality and in retail, et cetera, they'll have some basics. But on the street and street vendors, no, you're not going to be able to do that. So Google Translate is very handy there. The other thing is to decide how you're going to use Wi-Fi. You can buy a SIM card. You will need your passport for that. So you'll need to go to a Mobi phone or a phone shop, etc. to get the SIM card, replace it into your phone, etc. And that will give you mobile data. And that will mean that on the go, while you're getting out and about, you can access that. However, I found it just as easy to go to a particular coffee shop or set myself down in a restaurant or whatever and I will use the free Wi-Fi that comes with literally 99% of places that you can get that on your phone and use these apps if you need to do them. So options up to you however you want to do that. So getting back to our approaches, you can take yourself off onto the path of seeing all of these wonderful tourist destinations in Ho Chi Minh City. And that can be everything from the Notre Dame Cathedral through to Walking Street, and I want to get back to Walking Street in a minute, Bui Vien , the Temple of the Jade Emperor, The City Post Office , always great for photos. Turtle Lake. Starlight Bridge is a little bit further out. And of course, places like the Pink Church . See link here to main attraction: https://www.visithcmc.vn/en/news/10-diem-du-lich-mien-phi-o-tphcm-khong-the-bo-qua Now, the second approach you can take is actually moving a little bit out of Ho Chi Minh City. In this sense, you're going to be experiencing some of what the South of Vietnam has to offer in history and in nature and in the Mekong, I guess. So there's plenty of tourist desks around. Even your hotel can help you organize this. Or for many of you, if you've been asking me to put this together for you, I'm going to suggest a tour to the Cu chi Tunnels, or out to Ben Tre, or Cantho, or a visit to the Mekong Delta to experience. that local region and that's going to help you immerse into what I would call is the essential Vietnam. The Vietnam you've probably read about and seen the images where you're getting through all of these sort of areas where there's jungle and there is that feeling of local, you know, very, very poor areas in some cases, but you're going to get the essential Vietnam and you're going to get that with a mixture of some history and especially in places like Cu Chi Tunnels . And then the third approach that you have in your first 24, 48 hours, whatever time you decide to spend in Ho Chi Minh City, is what I choose to do now because I've seen all these things and I've experienced them all. I tend to want to go out and just wander the streets, kind of get a bit lost. And I do that very easilt I have to tell you. And I like getting lost in Ho Chi Minh City because I find different eateries, I find different vendors selling different types of goods. And every single time, depending on where I position myself as far as a hotel, even though it's in District 1 or it's in District 3 or District 5 or for that matter even District 2, there's going to be something new. And getting back to me kind of saying about the research, before I come here, I will have done some research and said, yeah, I want to check that out. Now, this time I stayed in a little hotel. It was a three-star hotel called La Opera . And I love this little hotel as it's in a beaut little area and I find it very easy to maneuver myself around wherever I want to go. So it's easy walking distance to most things. But also what comes with that is the experiences of that local area and your hotel reception staff is also going to be very good at being able to tell you what you can find close to the hotel. So really my first day just got taken up with experiencing different cafes, different shops. I still manage to get myself to the big shopping centers, so that's your Vincom and your Saigon Centre . And they're the ones that typically that you would acknowledge as being kind of the shopping mall. These are very modern, so they've got your H&M's and all of that. Or you can experience Ben Thanh Markets. And Ben Thanh Markets is prolific. It is iconic. It is one of the must-do's on that shopping experience. And you know, some people love it, some people hate it. It's an experience in itself and that That whole shopping experience is something that you may talk about for years to come. And as I said, you either love it or you hate it. but it all happens in Ben Thanh Market and it's probably where you're going to get, you know, your copy products, you're going to be able to barter and you're going to be able to get some good deals. But be aware that you need to have your wits about yourself in there because you may enter in one door but then come out another and, you know, be quite disorientated with that. So, take that into consideration. I have another market that I like called Saigon Square, and it's opposite one of the major shopping centers. And it's a smaller version of Ben Thanh Markets . And I think it's got a little bit of, I don't know, feeling that you can move around it a little bit easier. and a lot of the same stuff, but just a little bit more under control. You might pay a little bit more there than you would in Benton markets, but certainly it's got all the stuff that you need. As I said first approach is to go and visit all the major destinations in and around the city. Second is to you know just get lost in the city and then the third is to just relax. Just take in your hotel, take in just chilling out and as I said familiarizing yourself with the hotel experience. If it's got a nice pool, if it's got a nice bar and maybe save yourself up for the night time. Now for me, I love Ho Chi Minh City at night. While I've mentioned all these things about going out to the tunnels and and going shopping that's probably kind of stuff I would do during the day but once again it'll depend on the heat. But at night the city is just neon fizz, it is just It's electric, it really is. It's just got an energy about it that you will just be blown away from. And in particular, you can start seeing the city in this viewpoint from what they call Walking street. And walking street is really easy to spend time in because you don't have to kind of dodge traffic and and things like that like you do in some of the other areas. Plus what it has very close to it is some very eclectic, very kind of eccentric little cafes and it's just really lovely. You've got rooftop bars, You've got the Cafe Building which I really urge you to go and check out. You'll go up stairs and stairs and then you'll just discover all these different cafes and it's just really easy to get around and you can spend hours just getting yourself lost in that region and at night there's lots of entertainment going on. Another favourite place of mine is the Acoustic Bar and you can go there any night of the week and they're going to have a different artist on to entertain you with some really great music. and there's also a small bar next door to that which is getting local artists coming on every night of the week as well. So you're not going to be short of entertainment. You've also got Bui Vien Street which definitely comes alive at night. You've got all your big craft brewers in those streets. So you've got plenty of entertainment and that's just all in the first 24-48 hours. So you've got some culture if you've gone out of Ho Chi Minh City and you've got into the Mekong Delta and you've explored some of the countryside, or you've decided to stay in the city, get a little bit lost, have some beautiful cakes and explore the cafe culture, which is very, very rich, and do it that way. Or you've decided to relax or you've just gone shopping crazy. I hope you're going to enjoy this series. I've certainly enjoyed Ho Chi Minh again this time. I got to experience some great music at Acoustic Bar . I had a fab night that night. I found a couple of new restaurants and the food was just sensational. Don't think that you are going to be limited to just Vietnamese food. You'll just think about a cuisine and it will be here. So you've got your Korean, you've got your pizzas, you've got good Italian, you've got Thai, you've got fabulous Vietnamese food. And just go wild. Just try all the different kinds of new foods and foods that are particular to the South. And in particular, when you're looking at fur, there's a different flavour to fur in Ho Chi Minh City that you will be able to taste the difference here to how it is in the north. It's made totally differently. And of course, there are particular dishes that are exclusive to this area. I hope you're going to enjoy my next Out and About which is to be in Hoi An. That's my next stop. So stay tuned for the Out and About series. These are all going to feature on your normal podcast channels and of course on the website whataboutvietnam.com. Thank you for joining and see you in Hoi An. 00:00:02 - Introduction to "What About Vietnam?" Podcast 00:00:38 - Mini-Series Announcement 00:01:02 - Purpose of the Mini-Series 00:01:44 - "Out and About" Series Context 00:02:06 - Starting with Ho Chi Minh City 00:02:27 - Series Format and Expectations 00:03:19 - Importance of Research for Vietnam Travel 00:03:52 - Overcoming Travel Planning Overwhelm 00:04:34 - Arrival in Ho Chi Minh City and Visa Issues 00:05:09 - Podcast Impact on Listeners' Travel Plans 00:06:03 - A Cautionary Tale About Visa Dates 00:08:03 - Emphasizing the Importance of Correct Visa Application 00:09:09 - Series Recording and Sound Authenticity 00:10:15 - Arriving in Ho Chi Minh City and Jet Lag 00:11:10 - First Day Orientation Advice 00:12:57 - Ho Chi Minh City's Evolution and Energy 00:15:28 - Approaches to Exploring Ho Chi Minh City 00:17:04 - Essential Apps for Vietnam Travel 00:18:39 - Exploring Ho Chi Minh City's Attractions 00:21:12 - Day Trips Outside Ho Chi Minh City 00:23:37 - Personal Approach to Experiencing the City 00:25:17 - Hotel and Local Area Experience 00:27:26 - Nightlife in Ho Chi Minh City 00:30:56 - Recap and Next Destination Teaser 00:32:27 - Closing and Podcast Information